so, an almost Grothmar strike wipe gave me an idea how Anet could tune for easy mode Raid — Guild Wars 2 Forums

so, an almost Grothmar strike wipe gave me an idea how Anet could tune for easy mode Raid

crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

I think everyone could agree to how easy Grothmar strike is, but I was pleasantly surprised by the laziness(?) I encountered with the pugs I was with the other day, could not believe 8/10 people were either in down or dead because they thought could brute force it without doing any mechanics, and there's only one!!! used your dodge key to avoid the slow animated attacks, you can even walk out of it even when slowed *facepalm*

that made me I think about the raid fails I had experienced in the past

I think they all can be summarised into 3 pressure points players need to deal with
1. coping with incoming damage
2. mechanics
3. do as much damage as possible, this links to boss health and enrage timer

What if we remove one of these pressure points for easy mode raid?


I'll just get straight to the point, the changes

  • cutting all incoming damage down to 25%-50% (25% is probably too much) of normal mode, will require a bit of experiment to find they sweet spot so players cannot totally ignore it
  • 1 shot mechanics reduces players down to 10% hp instead of instant down or wipe, gives healers a bit of practice dealing with pressure since the overall damage had came down, they'd be bored
  • Enraged damage increase in damage by 10%-25%


Here are some of my thoughts why the others should not be touched from Normal mode

  • Mechanics - should remain identical to normal, so that new raiders can become familiar, apple to apple, without too much of a punishing outcome for failing a mechanic; obviously failing too much you'll be dead
  • Boss Health - should remain identical to normal, this will allow new raiders to continue to practice to improve their timer; I'm against tuning down bosses' hp or modify their toughness like others had suggested in the past threads, because it would not give the same scale for inexperienced raiders to gauge their dps checks
  • Enrage Timer - no change to count down


In summary, making the inexperienced raiders to spend less focus on their hp so they can put more focus on perfecting mechanics and dps rotations
once they are comfortable with the level of pressure from these two points, they can transition into normal mode where all 3 points of pressures are applied.


now... the rewards, it should not invalid the effort and progress for those who had done normal and CM, nor should it be an easy path to get the rewards / achievements

  • a new currency - Fractured Legendary Insight, throw 5 of them with a stack of each of the 3 HoT account bound mats to create 1 Legendary Insight.
  • Magnetite Shards - halved or even a third of normal mode
  • Chance for Ascended loot - 50% of normal mode
  • Achievements - no achievements can be obtained in easy mode
  • No KPs

[RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭

Comments

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2020

    Grothmar? Just afk auto attack with range weapon. Still end up getting Gold, everytime. Even with 1 pug went afk, after collecting all the mini boxes. While the other was still collecting the boxes when we started the encounter (did use the beacon when the boss was at 40% ish but ends up fully dead for using the beacon once its started). The squad leader tried calling, ready check etc. Sometimes do end up dead, "healers must be slacking" while I was alt-tabbed :tongue:.

    The boss doesn't do much with healer(s) around, unless they're afk. What was the situation like? Grothmar Strike is as simple as it can be. Can't say for all Strike/Raid bosses. (Eg. Boneskinner bug/design/balancing). Try to identify what caused the nearly wipe situation, then only on how to improve it.

    “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.” -Einstein

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2020

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    In summary, making the inexperienced raiders to spend less focus on their hp so they can put more focus on perfecting mechanics and dps rotations

    What you mean is inexperienced raiders will spend less focus on the mechanics because they won't be punishing. Why bother with a mechanic if it doesn't do much to you? The only players that will benefit from this are those that already want to learn, but let's be real here, those can already find a training raid to train with. Your example about the Grothmar Strike failure is exactly why reducing the severity of the mechanics will never work as valid training. Grothmar Strike has no mechanics, yet players in your squad got downed... Your ideas will have the opposite result of what you think they'll do.

    This part:

    should remain identical to normal, so that new raiders can become familiar, apple to apple, without too much of a punishing outcome for failing a mechanic; obviously failing too much you'll be dead

    is a load of non-sense too. At first you want them identical to normal and apple to apple, then you want to reduce the punishment for failing. How is that identical to normal if you reduce the punishment? Part of the mechanic IS the punishment. Let's take a one-shot mechanic like Sabetha's flamethrower, if you made it do damage instead then your average new raider won't learn to avoid it, but instead face tank it. Again, this type of "easy mode for training" works exclusively for players that already want to learn the mechanics and pretend it's the real thing while fighting. "Oh in the normal version I'd be dead, but I survived, better avoid it next time!", it's an illusion that this will ever be a thing.

    Mechanics should stay the exact same in both versions, otherwise there is no point in an easy mode (for training). Apples to apples, identical damage, identical punishment, identical mechanics, or as close as possible, that's the only way to have value for training. Remove some of the extra mechanics available at later phases of the fight (when it gets harder) and you are done, easy mode complete. I'll give you a very clear example: Whisper of Jormag Strike Mission. Remove the 25% phase and you are done, most of the difficulty of the fight is right there, perfect training for new players, as they will learn all the other mechanics as they are, and still get rewarded. Then once they feel confident with the rest of the fight they can try the "real thing" and try that 25% crazy phase. Because if you don't know how to deal with the rest (especially the chains) there is no hope in surviving that last 25%.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2020

    Grothmar Strike has been soloed....

    We've been all over these ideas. It comes down to 1 thing:

    • easy mode raids require extensive mechanical changes, not just damage reduction and some tweaks here and there if they are meant to be significantly easier for terrible inexperienced players
  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Tbh only way i can see "easy mode" happen is to just keep fight as it is but add permanent all boons to every player.
    Now its up to those said players how easy/hard they want the fight to be, perhaps they will take 2 healers? Or even 4 perhaps.

    Rewards? I dont know, but no LIs, APs or raid skins.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2020

    I have opposite vision for "Achievements - no achievements can be obtained in easy mode"
    To keep it positive we need get possibility do all achievements in easy mode. !! And don't add any CM achievements in raids ..
    Best and eases reward - is gold. Give for example +1 gold from each boss in normal. +5g in cm mode. It will be more motivated then some "magic new shards"

    and I like Grothmar Strike

  • borgs.6103borgs.6103 Member ✭✭✭

    The Play How You Want mantra is so ingrained with the playerbase that any slight deviation from it will be met with unwarranted hostility.

    First we have to change that culture. We must spread the idea that:

    The more gud you git, the faster you can obtain shinies and the more content you can finish in your limited playtime so you can still do fashion wars and roleplay at DR before you get on with your life.

    Check out the fable of the Boiling Frog.

  • @lare.5129 said:
    I have opposite vision for "Achievements - no achievements can be obtained in easy mode"
    To keep it positive we need get possibility do all achievements in easy mode. !! And don't add any CM achievements in raids ..
    Best and eases reward - is gold. Give for example +1 gold from each boss in normal. +5g in cm mode. It will be more motivated then some "magic new shards"

    and I like Grothmar Strike

    I disagree with the current achievements being available in easy mode raids. I know that you can sell raids and achievements basically dont mean anything, however having a title like Voice in the Void devalued from official side would really blow.

    Just add new achievements and titles specifically for easy mode.
    Keep Gold rewards as they are, keep chance for ascended items and the raid minis the same. Having more players with proper gear is valuable for everyone.
    Drop no LI but give some (maybe enough for one piece of legendary armor) through achievements.

    Genuine question, would the rewards be good for you?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2020

    Frankly, your proposal can work only if properly doing mechanics is the only way of pushing the fight forward, and it's not possible to just bruteforce through them. Grothmar strike, due to how easy and mechanically undemanding it is, is probably one of the worst examples you could pick to illustrate your argument however.

    In easy mode you could probably reduce the normal, pressure damage (a bit - 75% damage reduction you mentioned would be an overkill), and enrage damage percentages. Oneshot mechanics should remain oneshot (although you might offer better, more visible telegraphs and more reaction time leeway for those, compared to normal). You might also remove/weaken some of the late stage mechanics, depending on boss.

    That's for premade/lfg groups. For random queue groups (currently not existing for raids, only for strikes) you'd also need to ensure that basic roles (tank, healer, boon support) are somehow covered. Probably by mechanic similar to "role selection" from Mursaat overseer, or somehing like that.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2020

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:
    I disagree with the current achievements being available in easy mode raids. I know that you can sell raids and achievements basically dont mean anything, however having a title like Voice in the Void devalued from official side would really blow.

    So you don't see some magic logic you words?
    Voice in the Void is devalued long time ago. If you not have it, is only mean hat you to lazy to buy it, or not interested in raid content at all.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:
    Just add new achievements and titles specifically for easy mode.

    why you want make one more separation trigger ?

  • @lare.5129 said:
    So you don't see some magic logic you words?
    Voice in the Void is devalued long time ago. If you not have it, is only mean hat you to lazy to buy it, or not interested in raid content at all.

    I like how you not only ignore half of my comment, you didnt even read it properly. I said from official side. I know that titles dont mean anything since you can buy them. That still doesnt devalue them from official (Anet) side.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:
    That still doesnt devalue them from official (Anet) side.

    without players any mmo game is only useless bytes on servers .. So I don't see any reason to much spend value for abstraction as "oficial side".
    Lets delegate this vision of "oficial side" to "oficial side". But not for us, simple players..

    And as simple player I also see the reason add Raid pvp/wvw track, and also put one of rewards "unlock random achievement in Raids".

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    .........

    sorry, but I have to disagree Mr EU #388, the need Anet for creating Strike has proven that the current raid is unable to cater even the 50% of player base, open your eyes and look at the reality

    i dont want to offend the lower-skilled end of the players, but you be very surprised how ......... they can be, i once spent close to an hour guiding a guildie how to mount-glide-drop for a shortcut to a JP, and he still could not do it, while for me it was super easy to do even when i was trying to figure out the shortcut

    like teaching a kid to swim, you do not simply throw him into the ocean and expect him to swim like a fish
    no, you start off in the pool, in the shallow end where they hold onto the ledge of the pool and learn how to kick to generate forward momentum, dip head into the water and turn head to sides every 3 sec to learn how to draw breaths. once he mastered kicks and drawing breaths, the ledge is let go and start swimming in the lane.
    once he had mastered the swimming techniques and stamina, then he can challenge the ocean where ocean currents places more pressure on what he had learnt.

    the current normal mode learning method is you fail you die, then you just sit out til everyone else dies, or they just carries you
    if you die in phase 1, you do not even get to have any practice on phase 2 because you are dead, you just sit out and watch
    watching people doing mechanics and do the mechanics in person are two totally different experiences.

    the learning experience should be hands on end to end, not you fail and sit out for the rest of 10min doing nothing

    less you can put yourself in their shoes, your experiences and expectations are very different from the vast majority of the player base

    in life, you can certainly teach things to your kids, but only qualified teachers are allowed to teach in schools because teachers had been trained to understand the psychology and behaviours of kids, and be able to sympathise with them

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    Tbh only way i can see "easy mode" happen is to just keep fight as it is but add permanent all boons to every player.

    nah, no perma boon, supports need practice too, combat pressures, especially monster CCs would mess up their rotations

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @lare.5129 said:
    I have opposite vision for "Achievements - no achievements can be obtained in easy mode"
    To keep it positive we need get possibility do all achievements in easy mode. !! And don't add any CM achievements in raids ..
    Best and eases reward - is gold. Give for example +1 gold from each boss in normal. +5g in cm mode. It will be more motivated then some "magic new shards"

    no, i think the ability to get fragments of LI should be enough, the LI and APs are the carrots
    you want to progress on the LIs 5 times faster and get those sweet APs on normal mode? practice harder

    the goal of the easy mode should be a platform where the inexperience could do end-to-end practices rather than die and sit out
    sure they can power through it without learning anything, but that's take 5x the number of weeks required to the same number of LIs

    CM achieves should exist to show that you are in the top 1%

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    What if we remove one of these pressure points for easy mode raid?

    You were already playing the easy mode raid.
    It teaches appropriate distance from a boss, phases where the target cannot be hurt and dodging.
    It is lower damage as you asked. It's mechanics are already less punishing again as you asked.
    The encounter's rewards are commensurate with it's difficulty.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Grothmar Strike has been soloed....

    We've been all over these ideas. It comes down to 1 thing:

    • easy mode raids require extensive mechanical changes, not just damage reduction and some tweaks here and there if they are meant to be significantly easier for terrible inexperienced players

    kitten, Immana try and solo it tomorrow. Sounds like a fun challenge to beat the clock.

  • Crackmonster.2790Crackmonster.2790 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    Everybody talking about training, but gaps in difficulty doesn't mean if you make steps everyone will go there. You can't train the majority of people to hard endgame content that needs lots of practice, experience focus correct builds and rotations to get right and the mentioned has resulted in elitist concentration and deselection if you can't keep up.

    That just won't happen, isn't that obvious. The majority that gw2 attracts are people who like to play at their own pace, only easy mode raids will make them go into that content and keep doing it over time. Only content that is far more forgiving (but still if you don't try you should naturally fail), will do that - and we are talking forgiving both mechanically in reaction times and movement required but also number scaling.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    Tbh only way i can see "easy mode" happen is to just keep fight as it is but add permanent all boons to every player.

    nah, no perma boon, supports need practice too, combat pressures, especially monster CCs would mess up their rotations

    Yeah but thats the thing. Most ppl that I know who tried raids and failed in fact tried them without boon supports and came to conclusion that raids are impossible to do.

    And yeah I do realise that this is not even close to perfect solution 😅

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    like teaching a kid to swim, you do not simply throw him into the ocean and expect him to swim like a fish

    The question is if that kid wants to swim or not and if it's expected of them to swim in the ocean later on.
    A kid that wants to train and become a good swimmer will benefit from that training and then apply the lessons when swimming in the ocean.
    A kid that is not interested in swimming in the ocean in the first place will forever stay swimming at the pool, holding the edge.

    the learning experience should be hands on end to end, not you fail and sit out for the rest of 10min doing nothing

    As already explained, that's not a learning experience in a video game. It's only useful, and works, only if someone actually puts effort in learning. The example I gave above, "Oh in the normal version I'd be dead, but I survived, better avoid it next time!". If you believe there is even a tiny amount of players who'd think that way, then good for you, but I don't think there are players (not enough anyway) who'd do that. No, the average player will fail mechanics, see that there is no drawback in failing and brute force it. This is what happens everywhere else in the game. Take a look at how many still get downed at the shockwaves of Tequatl, do you honestly believe that it's a very punishing mechanic that makes them fail? No. It's just the punishment for failure is so low (they'll get revived or use a waypoint) that it's not worth avoiding it. It will be the exact same in an easy mode Raid with butchered mechanics.

    In reality, a mode with butchered mechanics will create players that are -less- useful in an actual situation than a total new comer. It's better not to know anything about an encounter, than knowing the -wrong- things.

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    Imo its experience, in the end it requires time(how firm is their basic, could be gained from other gaming exp).

    Agree, to improve needs practice. For that, having basic knowledge, what to expect or even better a "good teacher" with insight & patience helps alot. Eg. Mount-glide-drop and estimates/instinct to land, cutting one or two of the action won't help. The depth of the water; shallow or deep, both requires to float, the person holding the hands needs to make sure they keep floating till they're used to it. Even good swimmers can drown.

    How I view it,

    If there is something there that can be removed without effecting the function, then it is an unnecessary complication and should be removed. If you take away too much then you lose information, utility, or clarity. Thus everything has a minimal form.

    There's a wide range of example to give. But for Grothmar's Boss, it attacks randomly every 4-5 seconds. Requires 3 consecutively attack on the same player(s) to be downed, giving healer(s) a minimum 12-15 seconds(possible more) to heal which is more than enough. Further dampening the damage will make the boss attacks meaningless. (Which imo already is; harmless flashy attacks when there's healer(s).

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Grothmar Strike has been soloed....

    We've been all over these ideas. It comes down to 1 thing:

    • easy mode raids require extensive mechanical changes, not just damage reduction and some tweaks here and there if they are meant to be significantly easier for terrible inexperienced players

    kitten, Immana try and solo it tomorrow. Sounds like a fun challenge to beat the clock.

    I went in to solo it on my first try before I knew how hard/easy it was gonna be, joined a public team on my Druid and started beating the boss while the rest were stuck at the jumping puzzle. Since the shrine wasn't very known/visible on release nobody used it and I managed to get the boss to about 47% on my own before a second player beat the puzzle and we killed the boss. Not sure if I could've soloed it on my Druid, the DPS check is a bit tight for a raid healer, but 2-manning it with a random pug Warrior was very much doable. Grothmar Strike boss is easier than fighting Balthazar in Path of Fire, the only thing it has is that timer.

    Imagine if Balthazar had a timer. Oh joy

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    no, i think the ability to get fragments of LI should be enough, the LI and APs are the carrots

    AP you buy once, and close these question, Li useful only you do raid pve leg set. So there carrot is tasty only for 1%. Especalli if you need do some challenge.
    On Grot. you can join, take 10 pll, make kill, get % to get valuable chest (70g on tp now), and don't feel any toxic pressure.

    you want to progress on the LIs 5 times faster and get those sweet APs on normal mode? practice harder

    yes, it is true for for 1%

    CM achieves should exist to show that you are in the top 1%

    mostly each achievement is can be selled. There is nothing different between "I am rich" title and "ANY cm achiv"

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    No, the average player will fail mechanics, see that there is no drawback in failing and brute force it.

    Not only average player. Hardcore players will ignore mechanics as well if possible. It weren't average players that thought up the Gorse no updraft or VG disto/overheal strats.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    No, the average player will fail mechanics, see that there is no drawback in failing and brute force it.

    Not only average player. Hardcore players will ignore mechanics as well if possible. It weren't average players that thought up the Gorse no updraft or VG disto/overheal strats.

    True. I think though that hardcore players don't need a mode like this to train (or to ignore mechanics) they will go the actual content instead. And ignore the mechanics there.

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    like teaching a kid to swim, you do not simply throw him into the ocean and expect him to swim like a fish

    The question is if that kid wants to swim or not and if it's expected of them to swim in the ocean later on.
    A kid that wants to train and become a good swimmer will benefit from that training and then apply the lessons when swimming in the ocean.
    A kid that is not interested in swimming in the ocean in the first place will forever stay swimming at the pool, holding the edge.

    a laughable excuse

    the learning experience should be hands on end to end, not you fail and sit out for the rest of 10min doing nothing

    As already explained, that's not a learning experience in a video game.

    clearly shows someone does not know the history of up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A

    go play some legendary NES games

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭