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so, an almost Grothmar strike wipe gave me an idea how Anet could tune for easy mode Raid

crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

I think everyone could agree to how easy Grothmar strike is, but I was pleasantly surprised by the laziness(?) I encountered with the pugs I was with the other day, could not believe 8/10 people were either in down or dead because they thought could brute force it without doing any mechanics, and there's only one!!! used your dodge key to avoid the slow animated attacks, you can even walk out of it even when slowed *facepalm*

that made me I think about the raid fails I had experienced in the past

I think they all can be summarised into 3 pressure points players need to deal with
1. coping with incoming damage
2. mechanics
3. do as much damage as possible, this links to boss health and enrage timer

What if we remove one of these pressure points for easy mode raid?


I'll just get straight to the point, the changes

  • cutting all incoming damage down to 25%-50% (25% is probably too much) of normal mode, will require a bit of experiment to find they sweet spot so players cannot totally ignore it
  • 1 shot mechanics reduces players down to 10% hp instead of instant down or wipe, gives healers a bit of practice dealing with pressure since the overall damage had came down, they'd be bored
  • Enraged damage increase in damage by 10%-25%


Here are some of my thoughts why the others should not be touched from Normal mode

  • Mechanics - should remain identical to normal, so that new raiders can become familiar, apple to apple, without too much of a punishing outcome for failing a mechanic; obviously failing too much you'll be dead
  • Boss Health - should remain identical to normal, this will allow new raiders to continue to practice to improve their timer; I'm against tuning down bosses' hp or modify their toughness like others had suggested in the past threads, because it would not give the same scale for inexperienced raiders to gauge their dps checks
  • Enrage Timer - no change to count down


In summary, making the inexperienced raiders to spend less focus on their hp so they can put more focus on perfecting mechanics and dps rotations
once they are comfortable with the level of pressure from these two points, they can transition into normal mode where all 3 points of pressures are applied.


now... the rewards, it should not invalid the effort and progress for those who had done normal and CM, nor should it be an easy path to get the rewards / achievements

  • a new currency - Fractured Legendary Insight, throw 5 of them with a stack of each of the 3 HoT account bound mats to create 1 Legendary Insight.
  • Magnetite Shards - halved or even a third of normal mode
  • Chance for Ascended loot - 50% of normal mode
  • Achievements - no achievements can be obtained in easy mode
  • No KPs

[RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭

Comments

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2020

    Grothmar? Just afk auto attack with range weapon. Still end up getting Gold, everytime. Even with 1 pug went afk, after collecting all the mini boxes. While the other was still collecting the boxes when we started the encounter (did use the beacon when the boss was at 40% ish but ends up fully dead for using the beacon once its started). The squad leader tried calling, ready check etc. Sometimes do end up dead, "healers must be slacking" while I was alt-tabbed :tongue:.

    The boss doesn't do much with healer(s) around, unless they're afk. What was the situation like? Grothmar Strike is as simple as it can be. Can't say for all Strike/Raid bosses. (Eg. Boneskinner bug/design/balancing). Try to identify what caused the nearly wipe situation, then only on how to improve it.

    “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.” -Einstein

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Tbh only way i can see "easy mode" happen is to just keep fight as it is but add permanent all boons to every player.
    Now its up to those said players how easy/hard they want the fight to be, perhaps they will take 2 healers? Or even 4 perhaps.

    Rewards? I dont know, but no LIs, APs or raid skins.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2020

    I have opposite vision for "Achievements - no achievements can be obtained in easy mode"
    To keep it positive we need get possibility do all achievements in easy mode. !! And don't add any CM achievements in raids ..
    Best and eases reward - is gold. Give for example +1 gold from each boss in normal. +5g in cm mode. It will be more motivated then some "magic new shards"

    and I like Grothmar Strike

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • borgs.6103borgs.6103 Member ✭✭✭

    The Play How You Want mantra is so ingrained with the playerbase that any slight deviation from it will be met with unwarranted hostility.

    First we have to change that culture. We must spread the idea that:

    The more gud you git, the faster you can obtain shinies and the more content you can finish in your limited playtime so you can still do fashion wars and roleplay at DR before you get on with your life.

    Check out the fable of the Boiling Frog.

  • @lare.5129 said:
    I have opposite vision for "Achievements - no achievements can be obtained in easy mode"
    To keep it positive we need get possibility do all achievements in easy mode. !! And don't add any CM achievements in raids ..
    Best and eases reward - is gold. Give for example +1 gold from each boss in normal. +5g in cm mode. It will be more motivated then some "magic new shards"

    and I like Grothmar Strike

    I disagree with the current achievements being available in easy mode raids. I know that you can sell raids and achievements basically dont mean anything, however having a title like Voice in the Void devalued from official side would really blow.

    Just add new achievements and titles specifically for easy mode.
    Keep Gold rewards as they are, keep chance for ascended items and the raid minis the same. Having more players with proper gear is valuable for everyone.
    Drop no LI but give some (maybe enough for one piece of legendary armor) through achievements.

    Genuine question, would the rewards be good for you?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2020

    Frankly, your proposal can work only if properly doing mechanics is the only way of pushing the fight forward, and it's not possible to just bruteforce through them. Grothmar strike, due to how easy and mechanically undemanding it is, is probably one of the worst examples you could pick to illustrate your argument however.

    In easy mode you could probably reduce the normal, pressure damage (a bit - 75% damage reduction you mentioned would be an overkill), and enrage damage percentages. Oneshot mechanics should remain oneshot (although you might offer better, more visible telegraphs and more reaction time leeway for those, compared to normal). You might also remove/weaken some of the late stage mechanics, depending on boss.

    That's for premade/lfg groups. For random queue groups (currently not existing for raids, only for strikes) you'd also need to ensure that basic roles (tank, healer, boon support) are somehow covered. Probably by mechanic similar to "role selection" from Mursaat overseer, or somehing like that.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2020

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:
    I disagree with the current achievements being available in easy mode raids. I know that you can sell raids and achievements basically dont mean anything, however having a title like Voice in the Void devalued from official side would really blow.

    So you don't see some magic logic you words?
    Voice in the Void is devalued long time ago. If you not have it, is only mean hat you to lazy to buy it, or not interested in raid content at all.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:
    Just add new achievements and titles specifically for easy mode.

    why you want make one more separation trigger ?

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • @lare.5129 said:
    So you don't see some magic logic you words?
    Voice in the Void is devalued long time ago. If you not have it, is only mean hat you to lazy to buy it, or not interested in raid content at all.

    I like how you not only ignore half of my comment, you didnt even read it properly. I said from official side. I know that titles dont mean anything since you can buy them. That still doesnt devalue them from official (Anet) side.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:
    That still doesnt devalue them from official (Anet) side.

    without players any mmo game is only useless bytes on servers .. So I don't see any reason to much spend value for abstraction as "oficial side".
    Lets delegate this vision of "oficial side" to "oficial side". But not for us, simple players..

    And as simple player I also see the reason add Raid pvp/wvw track, and also put one of rewards "unlock random achievement in Raids".

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    .........

    sorry, but I have to disagree Mr EU #388, the need Anet for creating Strike has proven that the current raid is unable to cater even the 50% of player base, open your eyes and look at the reality

    i dont want to offend the lower-skilled end of the players, but you be very surprised how ......... they can be, i once spent close to an hour guiding a guildie how to mount-glide-drop for a shortcut to a JP, and he still could not do it, while for me it was super easy to do even when i was trying to figure out the shortcut

    like teaching a kid to swim, you do not simply throw him into the ocean and expect him to swim like a fish
    no, you start off in the pool, in the shallow end where they hold onto the ledge of the pool and learn how to kick to generate forward momentum, dip head into the water and turn head to sides every 3 sec to learn how to draw breaths. once he mastered kicks and drawing breaths, the ledge is let go and start swimming in the lane.
    once he had mastered the swimming techniques and stamina, then he can challenge the ocean where ocean currents places more pressure on what he had learnt.

    the current normal mode learning method is you fail you die, then you just sit out til everyone else dies, or they just carries you
    if you die in phase 1, you do not even get to have any practice on phase 2 because you are dead, you just sit out and watch
    watching people doing mechanics and do the mechanics in person are two totally different experiences.

    the learning experience should be hands on end to end, not you fail and sit out for the rest of 10min doing nothing

    less you can put yourself in their shoes, your experiences and expectations are very different from the vast majority of the player base

    in life, you can certainly teach things to your kids, but only qualified teachers are allowed to teach in schools because teachers had been trained to understand the psychology and behaviours of kids, and be able to sympathise with them

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    Tbh only way i can see "easy mode" happen is to just keep fight as it is but add permanent all boons to every player.

    nah, no perma boon, supports need practice too, combat pressures, especially monster CCs would mess up their rotations

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @lare.5129 said:
    I have opposite vision for "Achievements - no achievements can be obtained in easy mode"
    To keep it positive we need get possibility do all achievements in easy mode. !! And don't add any CM achievements in raids ..
    Best and eases reward - is gold. Give for example +1 gold from each boss in normal. +5g in cm mode. It will be more motivated then some "magic new shards"

    no, i think the ability to get fragments of LI should be enough, the LI and APs are the carrots
    you want to progress on the LIs 5 times faster and get those sweet APs on normal mode? practice harder

    the goal of the easy mode should be a platform where the inexperience could do end-to-end practices rather than die and sit out
    sure they can power through it without learning anything, but that's take 5x the number of weeks required to the same number of LIs

    CM achieves should exist to show that you are in the top 1%

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    What if we remove one of these pressure points for easy mode raid?

    You were already playing the easy mode raid.
    It teaches appropriate distance from a boss, phases where the target cannot be hurt and dodging.
    It is lower damage as you asked. It's mechanics are already less punishing again as you asked.
    The encounter's rewards are commensurate with it's difficulty.

    "We recognize that some players are not able to complete all content." Gaile Gray 01.10.19

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Grothmar Strike has been soloed....

    We've been all over these ideas. It comes down to 1 thing:

    • easy mode raids require extensive mechanical changes, not just damage reduction and some tweaks here and there if they are meant to be significantly easier for terrible inexperienced players

    kitten, Immana try and solo it tomorrow. Sounds like a fun challenge to beat the clock.

  • Crackmonster.2790Crackmonster.2790 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    Everybody talking about training, but gaps in difficulty doesn't mean if you make steps everyone will go there. You can't train the majority of people to hard endgame content that needs lots of practice, experience focus correct builds and rotations to get right and the mentioned has resulted in elitist concentration and deselection if you can't keep up.

    That just won't happen, isn't that obvious. The majority that gw2 attracts are people who like to play at their own pace, only easy mode raids will make them go into that content and keep doing it over time. Only content that is far more forgiving (but still if you don't try you should naturally fail), will do that - and we are talking forgiving both mechanically in reaction times and movement required but also number scaling.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    Tbh only way i can see "easy mode" happen is to just keep fight as it is but add permanent all boons to every player.

    nah, no perma boon, supports need practice too, combat pressures, especially monster CCs would mess up their rotations

    Yeah but thats the thing. Most ppl that I know who tried raids and failed in fact tried them without boon supports and came to conclusion that raids are impossible to do.

    And yeah I do realise that this is not even close to perfect solution 😅

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    like teaching a kid to swim, you do not simply throw him into the ocean and expect him to swim like a fish

    The question is if that kid wants to swim or not and if it's expected of them to swim in the ocean later on.
    A kid that wants to train and become a good swimmer will benefit from that training and then apply the lessons when swimming in the ocean.
    A kid that is not interested in swimming in the ocean in the first place will forever stay swimming at the pool, holding the edge.

    the learning experience should be hands on end to end, not you fail and sit out for the rest of 10min doing nothing

    As already explained, that's not a learning experience in a video game. It's only useful, and works, only if someone actually puts effort in learning. The example I gave above, "Oh in the normal version I'd be dead, but I survived, better avoid it next time!". If you believe there is even a tiny amount of players who'd think that way, then good for you, but I don't think there are players (not enough anyway) who'd do that. No, the average player will fail mechanics, see that there is no drawback in failing and brute force it. This is what happens everywhere else in the game. Take a look at how many still get downed at the shockwaves of Tequatl, do you honestly believe that it's a very punishing mechanic that makes them fail? No. It's just the punishment for failure is so low (they'll get revived or use a waypoint) that it's not worth avoiding it. It will be the exact same in an easy mode Raid with butchered mechanics.

    In reality, a mode with butchered mechanics will create players that are -less- useful in an actual situation than a total new comer. It's better not to know anything about an encounter, than knowing the -wrong- things.

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    Imo its experience, in the end it requires time(how firm is their basic, could be gained from other gaming exp).

    Agree, to improve needs practice. For that, having basic knowledge, what to expect or even better a "good teacher" with insight & patience helps alot. Eg. Mount-glide-drop and estimates/instinct to land, cutting one or two of the action won't help. The depth of the water; shallow or deep, both requires to float, the person holding the hands needs to make sure they keep floating till they're used to it. Even good swimmers can drown.

    How I view it,

    If there is something there that can be removed without effecting the function, then it is an unnecessary complication and should be removed. If you take away too much then you lose information, utility, or clarity. Thus everything has a minimal form.

    There's a wide range of example to give. But for Grothmar's Boss, it attacks randomly every 4-5 seconds. Requires 3 consecutively attack on the same player(s) to be downed, giving healer(s) a minimum 12-15 seconds(possible more) to heal which is more than enough. Further dampening the damage will make the boss attacks meaningless. (Which imo already is; harmless flashy attacks when there's healer(s).

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Grothmar Strike has been soloed....

    We've been all over these ideas. It comes down to 1 thing:

    • easy mode raids require extensive mechanical changes, not just damage reduction and some tweaks here and there if they are meant to be significantly easier for terrible inexperienced players

    kitten, Immana try and solo it tomorrow. Sounds like a fun challenge to beat the clock.

    I went in to solo it on my first try before I knew how hard/easy it was gonna be, joined a public team on my Druid and started beating the boss while the rest were stuck at the jumping puzzle. Since the shrine wasn't very known/visible on release nobody used it and I managed to get the boss to about 47% on my own before a second player beat the puzzle and we killed the boss. Not sure if I could've soloed it on my Druid, the DPS check is a bit tight for a raid healer, but 2-manning it with a random pug Warrior was very much doable. Grothmar Strike boss is easier than fighting Balthazar in Path of Fire, the only thing it has is that timer.

    Imagine if Balthazar had a timer. Oh joy

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    no, i think the ability to get fragments of LI should be enough, the LI and APs are the carrots

    AP you buy once, and close these question, Li useful only you do raid pve leg set. So there carrot is tasty only for 1%. Especalli if you need do some challenge.
    On Grot. you can join, take 10 pll, make kill, get % to get valuable chest (70g on tp now), and don't feel any toxic pressure.

    you want to progress on the LIs 5 times faster and get those sweet APs on normal mode? practice harder

    yes, it is true for for 1%

    CM achieves should exist to show that you are in the top 1%

    mostly each achievement is can be selled. There is nothing different between "I am rich" title and "ANY cm achiv"

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    No, the average player will fail mechanics, see that there is no drawback in failing and brute force it.

    Not only average player. Hardcore players will ignore mechanics as well if possible. It weren't average players that thought up the Gorse no updraft or VG disto/overheal strats.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    No, the average player will fail mechanics, see that there is no drawback in failing and brute force it.

    Not only average player. Hardcore players will ignore mechanics as well if possible. It weren't average players that thought up the Gorse no updraft or VG disto/overheal strats.

    True. I think though that hardcore players don't need a mode like this to train (or to ignore mechanics) they will go the actual content instead. And ignore the mechanics there.

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    like teaching a kid to swim, you do not simply throw him into the ocean and expect him to swim like a fish

    The question is if that kid wants to swim or not and if it's expected of them to swim in the ocean later on.
    A kid that wants to train and become a good swimmer will benefit from that training and then apply the lessons when swimming in the ocean.
    A kid that is not interested in swimming in the ocean in the first place will forever stay swimming at the pool, holding the edge.

    a laughable excuse

    the learning experience should be hands on end to end, not you fail and sit out for the rest of 10min doing nothing

    As already explained, that's not a learning experience in a video game.

    clearly shows someone does not know the history of up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A

    go play some legendary NES games

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    Oh I see, so make it an auto attack fest and pretend like players are going to care about mechanics. And then reward them with progress to their legendaries. This is a joke right?

    Also let's pretend we can't Google a boss to learn the mechanics. And that YouTube doesn't exist on the internet.

    You know what even better let's make it even easier, let's make the entire raid soloable so that it's no longer a raid and you don't even have to be afraid to open the LFG tool. That way you can call yourself a solo raider, I mean people will look at you funny being the one person in your raid, but it's the thought that counts right?

  • Terra.9506Terra.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    Ok i'm not a fan of raid or strike but how did any party manage to get whip by Grothmar... I understand some party might not have enough dps to get the best result but entire party get wipe just beyond me since his attack is so weak even berserker build can face tank him.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

    @Terra.9506 said:
    Ok i'm not a fan of raid or strike but how did any party manage to get whip by Grothmar... I understand some party might not have enough dps to get the best result but entire party get wipe just beyond me since his attack is so weak even berserker build can face tank him.

    Maybe they play without looking at the screen?

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    IMO what people would need it a fast way to train any encounter without relying on somebody opening that particular one for them. If there were "boss training" strikes that were basically just instanced raid bosses people MIGHT just be up to learning them. They should be far less rewarding than the real deal and probably be in their entirely own category to normal strikes though.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    IMO what people would need it a fast way to train any encounter without relying on somebody opening that particular one for them. If there were "boss training" strikes that were basically just instanced raid bosses people MIGHT just be up to learning them. They should be far less rewarding than the real deal and probably be in their entirely own category to normal strikes though.

    This literally makes no sense to do. "I'm going to do one boss out of the raid so I can do it in the raid."

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    IMO what people would need it a fast way to train any encounter without relying on somebody opening that particular one for them. If there were "boss training" strikes that were basically just instanced raid bosses people MIGHT just be up to learning them. They should be far less rewarding than the real deal and probably be in their entirely own category to normal strikes though.

    This literally makes no sense to do. "I'm going to do one boss out of the raid so I can do it in the raid."

    Are you unable to think just one step further? What stops them from learning one encounter after the other? Why shouldn't they be able to learn all easy ones? Should they not be able to learn one of the bosses that come later into a raid? I said it blows having to rely on somebody opening it up for you instead of being able to just open it yourself at any time. Some encounters can be bigger roadblocks than others, in case that wasn't completely obvious to you.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

    @borgs.6103 said:
    The Play How You Want mantra is so ingrained with the playerbase that any slight deviation from it will be met with unwarranted hostility.

    First we have to change that culture. We must spread the idea that:

    The more gud you git, the faster you can obtain shinies and the more content you can finish in your limited playtime so you can still do fashion wars and roleplay at DR before you get on with your life.

    God bless this post. :+1:

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    IMO what people would need it a fast way to train any encounter without relying on somebody opening that particular one for them. If there were "boss training" strikes that were basically just instanced raid bosses people MIGHT just be up to learning them. They should be far less rewarding than the real deal and probably be in their entirely own category to normal strikes though.

    This literally makes no sense to do. "I'm going to do one boss out of the raid so I can do it in the raid."

    Are you unable to think just one step further? What stops them from learning one encounter after the other? Why shouldn't they be able to learn all easy ones? Should they not be able to learn one of the bosses that come later into a raid? I said it blows having to rely on somebody opening it up for you instead of being able to just open it yourself at any time. Some encounters can be bigger roadblocks than others, in case that wasn't completely obvious to you.

    I don't need to think further, you're literally saying to experience the wings in chunks which is retsrded when you can just go do the actual wings. Nothing is stopping them from learning other than negative mental attitude. What's easy is subjective. Also, no that defeats the purpose of a raid existing. A raid is not a strike.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    .........

    sorry, but I have to disagree Mr EU #388, the need Anet for creating Strike has proven that the current raid is unable to cater even the 50% of player base, open your eyes and look at the reality

    i dont want to offend the lower-skilled end of the players, but you be very surprised how ......... they can be, i once spent close to an hour guiding a guildie how to mount-glide-drop for a shortcut to a JP, and he still could not do it, while for me it was super easy to do even when i was trying to figure out the shortcut

    like teaching a kid to swim, you do not simply throw him into the ocean and expect him to swim like a fish
    no, you start off in the pool, in the shallow end where they hold onto the ledge of the pool and learn how to kick to generate forward momentum, dip head into the water and turn head to sides every 3 sec to learn how to draw breaths. once he mastered kicks and drawing breaths, the ledge is let go and start swimming in the lane.
    once he had mastered the swimming techniques and stamina, then he can challenge the ocean where ocean currents places more pressure on what he had learnt.

    the current normal mode learning method is you fail you die, then you just sit out til everyone else dies, or they just carries you
    if you die in phase 1, you do not even get to have any practice on phase 2 because you are dead, you just sit out and watch
    watching people doing mechanics and do the mechanics in person are two totally different experiences.

    the learning experience should be hands on end to end, not you fail and sit out for the rest of 10min doing nothing

    less you can put yourself in their shoes, your experiences and expectations are very different from the vast majority of the player base

    in life, you can certainly teach things to your kids, but only qualified teachers are allowed to teach in schools because teachers had been trained to understand the psychology and behaviours of kids, and be able to sympathise with them

    How about the player stop being afraid of failure in a video game? It's not like your life is on the line. Simply join a training group and take a shot. It's just that simple.

    I promise you that your body, your arms and legs are going to be in one piece. Your character will magically reappear too.

    Also this isn't comparable to learning swimming, it's more comparable to learning Calculus as a 12 year old. Literally I can teach the entirety of calculus to a 12 year old if they simply understand that the slope on a graph is rise over run.

    Just the same it's that easy to learn how to do something like Vale Guardian. Have ranged stand on spawning green circles, have power DPS target blue and green, CC when blue bar appears, have condi DPS target red. At phase 1 DPS boss, tank face boss away from group, phase two split condi DPS go to red side, rest stack on blue side, and kill blue and green together. Go back and repeat phase 1 and 2 one more time, at phase 3 have ranged keep going to green, when blue break bar appears cc boss. Move to the next platform that doesn't have the colored poop on the ground and repeat until boss dies. The end.

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    .........

    sorry, but I have to disagree Mr EU #388, the need Anet for creating Strike has proven that the current raid is unable to cater even the 50% of player base, open your eyes and look at the reality

    i dont want to offend the lower-skilled end of the players, but you be very surprised how ......... they can be, i once spent close to an hour guiding a guildie how to mount-glide-drop for a shortcut to a JP, and he still could not do it, while for me it was super easy to do even when i was trying to figure out the shortcut

    like teaching a kid to swim, you do not simply throw him into the ocean and expect him to swim like a fish
    no, you start off in the pool, in the shallow end where they hold onto the ledge of the pool and learn how to kick to generate forward momentum, dip head into the water and turn head to sides every 3 sec to learn how to draw breaths. once he mastered kicks and drawing breaths, the ledge is let go and start swimming in the lane.
    once he had mastered the swimming techniques and stamina, then he can challenge the ocean where ocean currents places more pressure on what he had learnt.

    the current normal mode learning method is you fail you die, then you just sit out til everyone else dies, or they just carries you
    if you die in phase 1, you do not even get to have any practice on phase 2 because you are dead, you just sit out and watch
    watching people doing mechanics and do the mechanics in person are two totally different experiences.

    the learning experience should be hands on end to end, not you fail and sit out for the rest of 10min doing nothing

    less you can put yourself in their shoes, your experiences and expectations are very different from the vast majority of the player base

    in life, you can certainly teach things to your kids, but only qualified teachers are allowed to teach in schools because teachers had been trained to understand the psychology and behaviours of kids, and be able to sympathise with them

    How about the player stop being afraid of failure in a video game? It's not like your livelihood is on the line. Simply join a training group and take a shot. It's just that simple.

    You don't get it, the majority of casual platers are not interested in being 'trained'
    In the current style of raids.

    Just like raiders who want tuned content, casuals want 10 man content they csn enjoy wit lh the builds they enjoy, its not about challenge. It's about enjoying 10 man pve content.

    Simply put

    There is 10 man tuned content that satisfies the need of the minority.

    There is no 10 man content with relaxed tuning that satisfies the need of the majority,

    Relaxed tuning mean:

    any combination of builds work. Players play what they enjoy.

    Enough mechanics that the fight is interesting, but won't cause regular wipes for new players.

    The goal for the raid is offering a 10 man pve environment, not top end challenge for pve - that's what tuned raids are for.

    Aka easy mode and hard mode.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    .........

    sorry, but I have to disagree Mr EU #388, the need Anet for creating Strike has proven that the current raid is unable to cater even the 50% of player base, open your eyes and look at the reality

    i dont want to offend the lower-skilled end of the players, but you be very surprised how ......... they can be, i once spent close to an hour guiding a guildie how to mount-glide-drop for a shortcut to a JP, and he still could not do it, while for me it was super easy to do even when i was trying to figure out the shortcut

    like teaching a kid to swim, you do not simply throw him into the ocean and expect him to swim like a fish
    no, you start off in the pool, in the shallow end where they hold onto the ledge of the pool and learn how to kick to generate forward momentum, dip head into the water and turn head to sides every 3 sec to learn how to draw breaths. once he mastered kicks and drawing breaths, the ledge is let go and start swimming in the lane.
    once he had mastered the swimming techniques and stamina, then he can challenge the ocean where ocean currents places more pressure on what he had learnt.

    the current normal mode learning method is you fail you die, then you just sit out til everyone else dies, or they just carries you
    if you die in phase 1, you do not even get to have any practice on phase 2 because you are dead, you just sit out and watch
    watching people doing mechanics and do the mechanics in person are two totally different experiences.

    the learning experience should be hands on end to end, not you fail and sit out for the rest of 10min doing nothing

    less you can put yourself in their shoes, your experiences and expectations are very different from the vast majority of the player base

    in life, you can certainly teach things to your kids, but only qualified teachers are allowed to teach in schools because teachers had been trained to understand the psychology and behaviours of kids, and be able to sympathise with them

    How about the player stop being afraid of failure in a video game? It's not like your livelihood is on the line. Simply join a training group and take a shot. It's just that simple.

    You don't get it, the majority of casual platers are not interested in being 'trained'
    In the current style of raids.

    Just like raiders who want tuned content, casuals want 10 man content they csn enjoy wit lh the builds they enjoy, its not about challenge. It's about enjoying 10 man pve content.

    Simply put

    There is 10 man tuned content that satisfies the need of the minority.

    There is no 10 man content with relaxed tuning that satisfies the need of the majority,

    Relaxed tuning mean:

    any combination of builds work. Players play what they enjoy.

    Enough mechanics that the fight is interesting, but won't cause regular wipes for new players.

    The goal for the raid is offering a 10 man pve environment, not top end challenge for pve - that's what tuned raids are for.

    I'm going to crack your definition of relaxed tuning with logic.

    All raiders want their classes to work. Guardians especially have an underlying wish to one day be tanks. This isn't exclusive to difficulty, the reality is we actually don't need meta builds to be successful there are other combinations we can use to defeat bosses in raids that work perfectly fine apart from snowcrows builds. But leaders, moreover leaders of guilds prefer you to be optimal enough so that you canbeat the timer with ease and not cause problems for anyone. You can literally make your own group comp right now to have a full minstrels guardian, a soulbeast a bunch of dps and you doing all the healing. And you have a likelier chance of doing this with something called friends.

    There's no way you can make a fight interesting that doesn't cause wipes for new players. If I put in boss mechanics that did minimal damage to you where you can just stand up and come back to kill everything, and you have no risk of dying, it doesn't make the fight interesting, it makes it mundane.

    Your definition of the goal of raiding is wrong because it's too loose of a definition. You forgot to include coordinate as an elite group of skilled individuald and act as the special forces of Tyria. Key word special forces. Even in the real world only a select few can hold such a title.

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    Put it this way almost every big pve game out there has easy mode/hard modes:

    Big mmorpg. E. G wow, eso
    Big single player first perspective rpg like the Witcher, skyrim
    Big RPG like pillars of eternity
    Corg/rogue like, Diablo 3
    Strategy, civ x
    Guild was 2 fractals.

    It goes on and on. GW2 is not offering 10 man relaxed tuning pve instanced content to casuals that they want to play, in fact with the poor support for dungeons and fractals, there's little fresh instanced content for casuals at all now in this game.

    The facts speak for themselves. 90+% players are not interested in raid content in its current format as a result.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    Put it this way almost every big pve game out there has easy mode/hard modes:

    Big mmorpg. E. G wow, eso
    Big single player first perspective rpg like the Witcher, skyrim
    Big RPG like pillars of eternity
    Corg/rogue like, Diablo 3
    Strategy, civ x
    Guild was 2 fractals.

    It goes on and on. GW2 is not offering 10 man relaxed tuning pve instanced content to casuals that they want to play, in fact with the poor support for dungeons and fractals, there's little fresh instanced content for casuals at all now in this game.

    Ok I hope ANET adds said easy mode. And then people realize that there's nothing interesting about killing a boss in easy mode, and how boring it is to do so.

    I don't get it people think that there's some kind of treasure at the end of something like in WoW. In WoW people do LFR for gear, believe it or not. In GW2, raiders get a paper clip and some lint for saving the planet.

    Raiding in GW2 is really not meant for casual players. Trust me on that note. Things will in fact stay the same as they are now because players will find raids boring. I think this is the reason they made raiding as unrewarding as it is, to keep the loot-seeking gold farming casual out.

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    Put it this way almost every big pve game out there has easy mode/hard modes:

    Big mmorpg. E. G wow, eso
    Big single player first perspective rpg like the Witcher, skyrim
    Big RPG like pillars of eternity
    Corg/rogue like, Diablo 3
    Strategy, civ x
    Guild was 2 fractals.

    It goes on and on. GW2 is not offering 10 man relaxed tuning pve instanced content to casuals that they want to play, in fact with the poor support for dungeons and fractals, there's little fresh instanced content for casuals at all now in this game.

    Ok I hope ANET adds said easy mode. And then people realize that there's nothing interesting about killing a boss in easy mode, and how boring it is to do so.

    I don't get it people think that there's some kind of treasure at the end of something like in WoW. In WoW people do LFR for gear, believe it or not. In GW2, raiders get a paper clip and some lint for saving the planet.

    Raiding in GW2 is really not meant for casual players. Trust me on that note. Things will in fact stay the same as they are now because players will find raids boring.

    forget the word raid, thats a different style of game, that's the point. where is the 10 man instanced content for casual players who don't give a shot about being a top dog or getting gear, but simply want instanced content to enjoy with a group of people that offers a different way of earning currency. Just like fractals easy mode.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    Put it this way almost every big pve game out there has easy mode/hard modes:

    Big mmorpg. E. G wow, eso
    Big single player first perspective rpg like the Witcher, skyrim
    Big RPG like pillars of eternity
    Corg/rogue like, Diablo 3
    Strategy, civ x
    Guild was 2 fractals.

    It goes on and on. GW2 is not offering 10 man relaxed tuning pve instanced content to casuals that they want to play, in fact with the poor support for dungeons and fractals, there's little fresh instanced content for casuals at all now in this game.

    Ok I hope ANET adds said easy mode. And then people realize that there's nothing interesting about killing a boss in easy mode, and how boring it is to do so.

    I don't get it people think that there's some kind of treasure at the end of something like in WoW. In WoW people do LFR for gear, believe it or not. In GW2, raiders get a paper clip and some lint for saving the planet.

    Raiding in GW2 is really not meant for casual players. Trust me on that note. Things will in fact stay the same as they are now because players will find raids boring.

    forget the word raid, thats a different style of game, that's the point. where is the 10 man instanced content for casual players who don't give a shot about being a top dog or getting gear, but simply want instanced content to enjoy with a group of people that offers a different way of earning currency. Just like fractals easy mode.

    I don't know, but raids certainly isn't the answer! Maybe try WvW, it's instanced and you can form squads of 10 people, and do casual pve.

  • @Aridon.8362 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    Put it this way almost every big pve game out there has easy mode/hard modes:

    Big mmorpg. E. G wow, eso
    Big single player first perspective rpg like the Witcher, skyrim
    Big RPG like pillars of eternity
    Corg/rogue like, Diablo 3
    Strategy, civ x
    Guild was 2 fractals.

    It goes on and on. GW2 is not offering 10 man relaxed tuning pve instanced content to casuals that they want to play, in fact with the poor support for dungeons and fractals, there's little fresh instanced content for casuals at all now in this game.

    Ok I hope ANET adds said easy mode. And then people realize that there's nothing interesting about killing a boss in easy mode, and how boring it is to do so.

    I don't get it people think that there's some kind of treasure at the end of something like in WoW. In WoW people do LFR for gear, believe it or not. In GW2, raiders get a paper clip and some lint for saving the planet.

    Raiding in GW2 is really not meant for casual players. Trust me on that note. Things will in fact stay the same as they are now because players will find raids boring.

    forget the word raid, thats a different style of game, that's the point. where is the 10 man instanced content for casual players who don't give a shot about being a top dog or getting gear, but simply want instanced content to enjoy with a group of people that offers a different way of earning currency. Just like fractals easy mode.

    I don't know, but raids certainly isn't the answer! Maybe try WvW, it's instanced and you can form squads of 10 people, and do casual pve.

    And this kind of attitude gives raiders a bad name.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    Put it this way almost every big pve game out there has easy mode/hard modes:

    Big mmorpg. E. G wow, eso
    Big single player first perspective rpg like the Witcher, skyrim
    Big RPG like pillars of eternity
    Corg/rogue like, Diablo 3
    Strategy, civ x
    Guild was 2 fractals.

    It goes on and on. GW2 is not offering 10 man relaxed tuning pve instanced content to casuals that they want to play, in fact with the poor support for dungeons and fractals, there's little fresh instanced content for casuals at all now in this game.

    Ok I hope ANET adds said easy mode. And then people realize that there's nothing interesting about killing a boss in easy mode, and how boring it is to do so.

    I don't get it people think that there's some kind of treasure at the end of something like in WoW. In WoW people do LFR for gear, believe it or not. In GW2, raiders get a paper clip and some lint for saving the planet.

    Raiding in GW2 is really not meant for casual players. Trust me on that note. Things will in fact stay the same as they are now because players will find raids boring.

    forget the word raid, thats a different style of game, that's the point. where is the 10 man instanced content for casual players who don't give a shot about being a top dog or getting gear, but simply want instanced content to enjoy with a group of people that offers a different way of earning currency. Just like fractals easy mode.

    I don't know, but raids certainly isn't the answer! Maybe try WvW, it's instanced and you can form squads of 10 people, and do casual pve.

    And this kind of attitude gives raiders a bad name.

    Your fear of trying challenges gives you an even worse look as a human being.

  • @Aridon.8362 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    Put it this way almost every big pve game out there has easy mode/hard modes:

    Big mmorpg. E. G wow, eso
    Big single player first perspective rpg like the Witcher, skyrim
    Big RPG like pillars of eternity
    Corg/rogue like, Diablo 3
    Strategy, civ x
    Guild was 2 fractals.

    It goes on and on. GW2 is not offering 10 man relaxed tuning pve instanced content to casuals that they want to play, in fact with the poor support for dungeons and fractals, there's little fresh instanced content for casuals at all now in this game.

    Ok I hope ANET adds said easy mode. And then people realize that there's nothing interesting about killing a boss in easy mode, and how boring it is to do so.

    I don't get it people think that there's some kind of treasure at the end of something like in WoW. In WoW people do LFR for gear, believe it or not. In GW2, raiders get a paper clip and some lint for saving the planet.

    Raiding in GW2 is really not meant for casual players. Trust me on that note. Things will in fact stay the same as they are now because players will find raids boring.

    forget the word raid, thats a different style of game, that's the point. where is the 10 man instanced content for casual players who don't give a shot about being a top dog or getting gear, but simply want instanced content to enjoy with a group of people that offers a different way of earning currency. Just like fractals easy mode.

    I don't know, but raids certainly isn't the answer! Maybe try WvW, it's instanced and you can form squads of 10 people, and do casual pve.

    And this kind of attitude gives raiders a bad name.

    Your fear of trying challenges gives you an even worse look as a human being.

    god can you hear yourself. gaming is not just about challenges. your argument is bordering on the elitist 'learn to play', that's not the point. no-one is trying to take away your raids, relaaaaax.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    Put it this way almost every big pve game out there has easy mode/hard modes:

    Big mmorpg. E. G wow, eso
    Big single player first perspective rpg like the Witcher, skyrim
    Big RPG like pillars of eternity
    Corg/rogue like, Diablo 3
    Strategy, civ x
    Guild was 2 fractals.

    It goes on and on. GW2 is not offering 10 man relaxed tuning pve instanced content to casuals that they want to play, in fact with the poor support for dungeons and fractals, there's little fresh instanced content for casuals at all now in this game.

    Ok I hope ANET adds said easy mode. And then people realize that there's nothing interesting about killing a boss in easy mode, and how boring it is to do so.

    I don't get it people think that there's some kind of treasure at the end of something like in WoW. In WoW people do LFR for gear, believe it or not. In GW2, raiders get a paper clip and some lint for saving the planet.

    Raiding in GW2 is really not meant for casual players. Trust me on that note. Things will in fact stay the same as they are now because players will find raids boring.

    forget the word raid, thats a different style of game, that's the point. where is the 10 man instanced content for casual players who don't give a shot about being a top dog or getting gear, but simply want instanced content to enjoy with a group of people that offers a different way of earning currency. Just like fractals easy mode.

    I don't know, but raids certainly isn't the answer! Maybe try WvW, it's instanced and you can form squads of 10 people, and do casual pve.

    And this kind of attitude gives raiders a bad name.

    Your fear of trying challenges gives you an even worse look as a human being.

    god can you hear yourself. gaming is not just about challenges. your argument is bordering on the elitist 'learn to play', that's not the point. no-one is trying to take away your raids, relaaaaax.

    I know that, which is why I said ANET should give you what you want. And then you'll realize how dumb your request is. And my argument is not elitist at all. If you truly understood the game you wouldn't say that at all.

  • @Aridon.8362 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    Put it this way almost every big pve game out there has easy mode/hard modes:

    Big mmorpg. E. G wow, eso
    Big single player first perspective rpg like the Witcher, skyrim
    Big RPG like pillars of eternity
    Corg/rogue like, Diablo 3
    Strategy, civ x
    Guild was 2 fractals.

    It goes on and on. GW2 is not offering 10 man relaxed tuning pve instanced content to casuals that they want to play, in fact with the poor support for dungeons and fractals, there's little fresh instanced content for casuals at all now in this game.

    Ok I hope ANET adds said easy mode. And then people realize that there's nothing interesting about killing a boss in easy mode, and how boring it is to do so.

    I don't get it people think that there's some kind of treasure at the end of something like in WoW. In WoW people do LFR for gear, believe it or not. In GW2, raiders get a paper clip and some lint for saving the planet.

    Raiding in GW2 is really not meant for casual players. Trust me on that note. Things will in fact stay the same as they are now because players will find raids boring.

    forget the word raid, thats a different style of game, that's the point. where is the 10 man instanced content for casual players who don't give a shot about being a top dog or getting gear, but simply want instanced content to enjoy with a group of people that offers a different way of earning currency. Just like fractals easy mode.

    I don't know, but raids certainly isn't the answer! Maybe try WvW, it's instanced and you can form squads of 10 people, and do casual pve.

    And this kind of attitude gives raiders a bad name.

    Your fear of trying challenges gives you an even worse look as a human being.

    god can you hear yourself. gaming is not just about challenges. your argument is bordering on the elitist 'learn to play', that's not the point. no-one is trying to take away your raids, relaaaaax.

    I know that, which is why I said ANET should give you what you want. And then you'll realize how dumb your request is.

    your attitude is one of the reasons casual players don't like tuned content. I don't think raiders are dumb because they like tuned content, but you think casual players that want easy mode are (despite the overwhelming statistics on gaming at large) You think raiders have a corner on intelligence and critical thinking do you? Anyway 'learn to play' chat indicates your mindset, have a good day.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • i will leave this thought with you. many of those 'stupid casuals' as you so arrogantly called it, have in fact raided in the past, and are actually game players just like you.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    i will leave this thought with you. many of those 'stupid casuals' as you so arrogantly called it, have in fact raided in the past, and are actually game players just like you.

    And by 'stupid casuals' you mean including you right? I seriously doubt you've beaten a boss at all. Especially with that "positive" attitude of yours.

    Also just as an FYI, raiding actually has two modes. There is in fact a normal mode and a challenge mode. And they differ greatly!