La la la click bait title for SERIOUS small scale PVP mode discussion — Guild Wars 2 Forums

La la la click bait title for SERIOUS small scale PVP mode discussion

jason.2043jason.2043 Member ✭✭
edited February 12, 2020 in PVP

TLDR: Getting kills should be the primary objective for this pvp mode. Capturing objectives should help facilitate the primary objective.

Originally this thread began with 2 paragraphs of griping on how unmotivating and disappointing conquest spvp is, and it tears my heart out a lover of Guild Wars that we do not have a small scale pvp mode with the primary win condition of killing the other team, in this game after 8 years.

I decided to spare those tears and jump right in to what I feel is the sort of spvp mode we can be proud of.

Below follows an outline for how to create an engaging spvp mode. It should go without saying that all numbers can be tweaked--the underlying philosophy is the important part.

I have given this a lot of thought and encourage the community to provide feedback for any holes in gameplay
and most importantly to help get this on the eyes of the dev team.

Medium to large size map.
Large capture point similar to legacy of the foefire on one side of the map. IE large enough to facilitate movement as well as contesting.
Obelisk on the other side of the map, capturable by placing your flag or a neutral flag in it.

Map size is important here. It should be very difficult to hold both the capture point and the obelisk. And nearly impossible to prevent the opposing team from capturing the obelisk, as placing the flag should be instant.

The obelisk can be captured by placing your teams flag in it.
Flags will first spawn in 1 of 2 ways:
1) When the point is captured flags will spawn near each teams spawn point.
2) If the point is not captured by 1:30, team flags will spawn near each teams spawn point and a neutral flag will spawn at a midway point to the obelisk. Either team may use this flag to capture the obelisk.

Capturing the obelisk generates a flat score of 25.
Once the obelisk is captured it cannot be captured by the opposing team until the next x:00
Controlling the obelisk will have 2 possible effects
1) If your team is winning the obelisk will generate 25 score every x:00 and x:30
2) If your team is losing the obelisk will apply some effect globally to help the losing team secure kills. Possible examples: attacks ignore aegis, some number or some certain boons stripped every 'x' seconds. some number or some certain conditions applied every 'x' seconds. globally apply 'x' stacks of might. etc, you get the picture. the idea is to help the losing team get kills. you can get as creative as you'd like, hell you could even change it up every week or every day as a sort of flux system similar to guild wars 1.

Decapping the control point has two possible effects
1) If your team is winning, decapping the point generates 25 score.
2) If your team is losing, decapping the point will apply some effect to the area of the capture point. again you can get as creative as you'd like. ie losing team buffed in some way or winning team weakend in some way

Capturing the control point has two possible effects
1) If your team is winning, capping the point will generate a flat score of 50.
2) If your team is losing, capturing the point will disable the obelisk if it is held by the winning team for 1 minute and apply a global 1 second knockdown/stun to the winning team.
In addition, controlling the capture point generates 5 score per tick.

All kills generate 15 score.
Games played to 500

Death to our enemies,
-Jason

Comments

  • Tharan.9085Tharan.9085 Member ✭✭✭

    No (Body is 8 characters too short)

  • Great feedback Tharan.
    What are your criticisms of a design similar to this?

  • There are a lot of gamemodes that would be fun for casual play, conquest requires far too much team communication and coordination for the average group of casual players to play properly. However I find people are usually pessimistic about new gamemodes and assume they will be poorly implemented, or lower ranked/AT populations. With lower ttk coming in the new patch I am guessing that conquest will become even less centred around getting kills, and instead it will be about constantly rotating/kiting around and +1 to get a quick cap/decap.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    Hmmm, yes, the current objective of "stand in the circle" is too difficult for new players to understand.

    What we need is something simpler and more intuitive.

    Like, you get points by holding the obelisk at xx:30, but only if you're winning, and you capture the obelisk by using a flag which you spawn when a different point is captured, but in different locations depending on the timer, unless the losing team captures the point in which case the obelisk is disabled, but then the winning team has an opportunity to get points back by recapping the point, but if the losing team decaps then some random effect which will change too often to learn will happen.

    See, just need to strip things back to basics.

  • jason.2043jason.2043 Member ✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    It’s not that conquest is difficult. It’s that it’s inherently less fun—because naturally in pvp people would rather fight.

    The principles are what’s important,a mode where the primary way to win is by killing the other team. A secondary objective or mechanic is available to help the losing team catch up and secure kills.

    The obelisk is just one idea to accomplish that, and is also simple—it generates small score passively and is used as the catch-up mechanic for the losing team. Even if a player doesn’t understand the catchup mechanic in whatever form it takes, it does not matter, because the team is not harmed in a substantial way by ignoring it.

    The flags only spawn near each teams spawn unless no one has captured the point. in which case there is a neutral flag.

    All of that to say, you seem to have gone out of your way to convolute the design in an effort to backhand jab the conquest pvp community as incapable of standing in circles (again, I would submit that running around from circle to circle is not a fun objective, but I have not suggested removing conquest so players such as yourself can continuing enjoying it)

  • Mbelch.9028Mbelch.9028 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm all for team death match. Not whatever monstrosity this is. Just let us have team deathmatch as a queue. It could even be king of the hill style. The longer you reign as one of the "kings of the hill" the more loot you get, or if you stay there for an entire weekend, you get a title or something.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @jason.2043 said:
    TLDR: Getting kills should be the primary objective for this pvp mode. Capturing objectives should help facilitate the primary objective.

    Originally this thread began with 2 paragraphs of griping on how unmotivating and disappointing conquest spvp is, and it tears my heart out a lover of Guild Wars that we do not have a small scale pvp mode with the primary win condition of killing the other team, in this game after 8 years.

    I decided to spare those tears and jump right in to what I feel is the sort of spvp mode we can be proud of.

    Below follows an outline for how to create an engaging spvp mode. It should go without saying that all numbers can be tweaked--the underlying philosophy is the important part.

    I have given this a lot of thought and encourage the community to provide feedback for any holes in gameplay
    and most importantly to help get this on the eyes of the dev team.

    Medium to large size map.
    Large capture point similar to legacy of the foefire on one side of the map. IE large enough to facilitate movement as well as contesting.
    Obelisk on the other side of the map, capturable by placing your flag or a neutral flag in it.

    Map size is important here. It should be very difficult to hold both the capture point and the obelisk. And nearly impossible to prevent the opposing team from capturing the obelisk, as placing the flag should be instant.

    The obelisk can be captured by placing your teams flag in it.
    Flags will first spawn in 1 of 2 ways:
    1) When the point is captured flags will spawn near each teams spawn point.
    2) If the point is not captured by 1:30, team flags will spawn near each teams spawn point and a neutral flag will spawn at a midway point to the obelisk. Either team may use this flag to capture the obelisk.

    Capturing the obelisk generates a flat score of 25.
    Once the obelisk is captured it cannot be captured by the opposing team until the next x:00
    Controlling the obelisk will have 2 possible effects
    1) If your team is winning the obelisk will generate 25 score every x:00 and x:30
    2) If your team is losing the obelisk will apply some effect globally to help the losing team secure kills. Possible examples: attacks ignore aegis, some number or some certain boons stripped every 'x' seconds. some number or some certain conditions applied every 'x' seconds. globally apply 'x' stacks of might. etc, you get the picture. the idea is to help the losing team get kills. you can get as creative as you'd like, hell you could even change it up every week or every day as a sort of flux system similar to guild wars 1.

    Decapping the control point has two possible effects
    1) If your team is winning, decapping the point generates 25 score.
    2) If your team is losing, decapping the point will apply some effect to the area of the capture point. again you can get as creative as you'd like. ie losing team buffed in some way or winning team weakend in some way

    Capturing the control point has two possible effects
    1) If your team is winning, capping the point will generate a flat score of 50.
    2) If your team is losing, capturing the point will disable the obelisk if it is held by the winning team for 1 minute and apply a global 1 second knockdown/stun to the winning team.
    In addition, controlling the capture point generates 5 score per tick.

    All kills generate 15 score.
    Games played to 500

    Death to our enemies,
    -Jason

    I only read the tl;dr.
    You know there actually was a map with the objective to kill the enemies?
    Yea, in those 7 years (not 8 yet) we actually had that. Ppl didnt like it, it got deleted.

    I believe nobody liked it (me included) because it was included in the normal map rota, so ppl queued with their conquest builds and were suddenly thrown in a full out 5v5 brawl map.
    I personally have no problem changing build and adjust to such different fighting style, i actually like brawls like this, but randoms dont swap builds most of the time, and then you are either lucky or unlucky with yours or enemys teamcomp.

  • I agree with you in principle Mbelch. Though not that this draft design is a monstrosity. Haha

    I think though that the combat system, down state, respawning, and movement, make having a point that needs to be controlled almost necessary.

    But once one team has demonstrated they are superior there has to be a mechanic available to give the losing team a better chance to get back in the match.

  • I recall courtyard. And definitely it should not be in the conquest pvp mode.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What if capping gives the team a certain amount of bonus points for each kill, and having 2 or 3 caps grows the bonus points to each kill appropriately.
    Decapping would still be important as ud be effectively stripping the other teams bonus points on kills.
    Capping is still important as it Grant's bonus points for each kill by ur team.
    Capping/decapping remains important but killing is the main focus.

  • jason.2043jason.2043 Member ✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    You could make it that simple yes.
    Two circles to be captured.
    Each circle gives a bonus to points from kills. If your team is behind In addition to bonus points, capping a circle provides some mechanic to help them get kills.

    Although I would hesitate to have more than one circle, if they insisted on having this mode in conquest, this could be the way. I would much prefer having only 1 point to fight over, with something to periodically split for to get that catchup mechanic.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    TLDR: Bring Courtyard back to ranked

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/TRMC
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
    Co-Leader of SOmething inAPpropriate {SOAP}

  • Tharan.9085Tharan.9085 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2020
    1. You already have an advantage if you kill someone in conquest
    2. The mechanic is way to unbalanced
    3. Just go to ffa arena or WvW
  • what ever happened to small that 5v5 kills only pvp map? Really liked that one and the small scale made it very interesting

  • primatos.5413primatos.5413 Member ✭✭✭

    Battlegrounds like in wow later they made ranked bgs... most funny thing ever :)
    In gw2 pvp doesnt make sense to me idk...

  • @jason.2043 said:
    TLDR: Getting kills should be the primary objective for this pvp mode. Capturing objectives should help facilitate the primary objective.

    Originally this thread began with 2 paragraphs of griping on how unmotivating and disappointing conquest spvp is, and it tears my heart out a lover of Guild Wars that we do not have a small scale pvp mode with the primary win condition of killing the other team, in this game after 8 years.

    I decided to spare those tears and jump right in to what I feel is the sort of spvp mode we can be proud of.

    Below follows an outline for how to create an engaging spvp mode. It should go without saying that all numbers can be tweaked--the underlying philosophy is the important part.

    I have given this a lot of thought and encourage the community to provide feedback for any holes in gameplay
    and most importantly to help get this on the eyes of the dev team.

    Medium to large size map.
    Large capture point similar to legacy of the foefire on one side of the map. IE large enough to facilitate movement as well as contesting.
    Obelisk on the other side of the map, capturable by placing your flag or a neutral flag in it.

    Map size is important here. It should be very difficult to hold both the capture point and the obelisk. And nearly impossible to prevent the opposing team from capturing the obelisk, as placing the flag should be instant.

    The obelisk can be captured by placing your teams flag in it.
    Flags will first spawn in 1 of 2 ways:
    1) When the point is captured flags will spawn near each teams spawn point.
    2) If the point is not captured by 1:30, team flags will spawn near each teams spawn point and a neutral flag will spawn at a midway point to the obelisk. Either team may use this flag to capture the obelisk.

    Capturing the obelisk generates a flat score of 25.
    Once the obelisk is captured it cannot be captured by the opposing team until the next x:00
    Controlling the obelisk will have 2 possible effects
    1) If your team is winning the obelisk will generate 25 score every x:00 and x:30
    2) If your team is losing the obelisk will apply some effect globally to help the losing team secure kills. Possible examples: attacks ignore aegis, some number or some certain boons stripped every 'x' seconds. some number or some certain conditions applied every 'x' seconds. globally apply 'x' stacks of might. etc, you get the picture. the idea is to help the losing team get kills. you can get as creative as you'd like, hell you could even change it up every week or every day as a sort of flux system similar to guild wars 1.

    Decapping the control point has two possible effects
    1) If your team is winning, decapping the point generates 25 score.
    2) If your team is losing, decapping the point will apply some effect to the area of the capture point. again you can get as creative as you'd like. ie losing team buffed in some way or winning team weakend in some way

    Capturing the control point has two possible effects
    1) If your team is winning, capping the point will generate a flat score of 50.
    2) If your team is losing, capturing the point will disable the obelisk if it is held by the winning team for 1 minute and apply a global 1 second knockdown/stun to the winning team.
    In addition, controlling the capture point generates 5 score per tick.

    All kills generate 15 score.
    Games played to 500

    Death to our enemies,
    -Jason

    we will get 2v2 arenas as off season events. Maybe there will be more games modes added in this roation. However I dont think anet will add another game mode next to conquest as sort of a permanent option since they dont want to further split the anyways allready small playerbase.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    5v5 DM is too forward and requires an objective. All it would be is farm or get farmed.

    2v2 is what makes sense because the focus in between players is nor too high or too low, it's a short duel to fight in where you don't end up deleted like 5 players would, the chaos is also manageable.