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NC Soft Q4 earnings report. GW2 25% decline over Q3

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  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So no, you cannot conclude from those revenue numbers that it can only be caused by a focus on open world content. The point that it coincides with the time period that other content is not coming out is called correllation and that is not the same as causation. That's the logic error you are making with your conclusion. It doesn't mean that it cannot be the cause, but it does mean that it doesn't prove that it's the actual cause and other causes are quite possible.

    Not sure why you felt the need to respond again to a part that I already answered. But tell this to @Blaeys.3102 above claiming that the game was losing revenue due to spreading too thin and creating Raids.

    They need to focus on their core differentiators - open world, story and WvW. Anything that doesn't feed into those game modes needs to be put on hold indefinitely - including sPvP, raids, strike missions, etc. Focus all of those resources in the same area and make it as good as it can possibly be. Stop trying to compete for raiders from WoW or pvpers from LoL and make the parts of the game that offer something unique better and more fun.

    I wonder why you didn't post the same thing to them. Oh right because you agree with the "raids are evil" narrative.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2020

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    You are right though that the focus of the game has been open world PvE and that's for very good reasons. I reckon it's the most used content by the player base and I think people should realise that things like PvP/WvW/Raids/Fractals are closer to niche content than general content. It's also the content you can do with sucky builds and that's important.

    so any kind of population drop (or revenue drop) can only attributed to that Open World focus.

    No it cannot only be attributed to that. That's my point. You are too narrow in your views to allow for other possibilities but I'll tell you this as a starting point: I am entirely focused on open world content, that's the part I enjoy in this game the most and I've stopped playing again.

    It might not be the primary reason to attribute revenue loss to, but it certainly is a way more reasonable estimate than the contrary: raids (or hardcore content) are to blame for everything. Which is exactly the mantra continually presented by some players here.

    The main difference between arguments presented in this thread, and I'll use the terms to represent both extremes here, casual and hardcore players (in a sense as far as taking part in challenging content):

    • hardcore players want some content be developed to them, with having had a niche of the development resources devoted to this content in the past
    • casual players want ALL the resources be devoted to their content, with a vast majority having been devoted currently and in the past already

    Those are two very different points to start and base arguments off of. Having players blame the already very small resources devoted to challenging content when the vast majority of resources have always been spent on casual content makes a lot less sense than the other way around, aka complaining that the already small amount of resources for challenging content has hit 0.

    Me personally, I've already expressed my position on this in the past: I think all players are needed. I think the current constraint on resources causes the prioritization of mass content, and open world content is mass content since most player partake in it, in hopes to keep as many players as possible.

    I do think that most players who are in favor of only open world content will have a rude awakening when this game seizes to perform financially, due to the lack of part of the player base. I simply don't believe that the only open world crowd makes up sufficient of a revenue stream. But that's my personal assumption.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So no, you cannot conclude from those revenue numbers that it can only be caused by a focus on open world content. The point that it coincides with the time period that other content is not coming out is called correllation and that is not the same as causation. That's the logic error you are making with your conclusion. It doesn't mean that it cannot be the cause, but it does mean that it doesn't prove that it's the actual cause and other causes are quite possible.

    Not sure why you felt the need to respond again to a part that I already answered. But tell this to @Blaeys.3102 above claiming that the game was losing revenue due to spreading too thin and creating Raids.

    Well let me ask you why you insist on something that has been demonstrated to be a logic error?

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2020

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    Well let me ask you why you insist on something that has been demonstrated to be a logic error?

    You mean they made an error claiming that the reason for the revenue drop was because the company was spread too thin trying to cater to raiders and pvpers and not only open world players? I'm not the one insisting on that you are responding to the wrong person. Again.

    Edit:
    You can also stop ignoring my response to you:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1164577/#Comment_1164577

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    You are right though that the focus of the game has been open world PvE and that's for very good reasons. I reckon it's the most used content by the player base and I think people should realise that things like PvP/WvW/Raids/Fractals are closer to niche content than general content. It's also the content you can do with sucky builds and that's important.

    so any kind of population drop (or revenue drop) can only attributed to that Open World focus.

    No it cannot only be attributed to that. That's my point. You are too narrow in your views to allow for other possibilities but I'll tell you this as a starting point: I am entirely focused on open world content, that's the part I enjoy in this game the most and I've stopped playing again.

    It might not be the primary reason to attribute revenue loss to, but it certainly is a way more reasonable estimate than the contrary: raids (or hardcore content) are to blame for everything. Which is exactly the mantra continually presented by some players here.

    The main difference between arguments presented in this thread, and I'll use the terms to represent both extremes here, casual and hardcore players (in a sense as far as taking part in challenging content):

    • hardcore players want some content be developed to them, with having had a niche of the development resources devoted to this content in the past
    • casual players want ALL the resources be devoted to their content, with a vast majority having been devoted currently and in the past already

    Those are two very different points to start and base arguments off of. Having players blame the already very small resources devoted to challenging content when the vast majority of resources have always been spent on casual content makes a lot less sense than the other way around, aka complaining that the already small amount of resources for challenging content has hit 0.

    Me personally, I've already expressed my position on this in the past: I think all players are needed. I think the current constraint on resources causes the prioritization of mass content, and open world content is mass content since most player partake in it, in hopes to keep as many players as possible.

    I do think that most players who are in favor of only open world content will have a rude awakening when this game seizes to perform financially, due to the lack of part of the player base. I simply don't believe that the only open world crowd makes up sufficient of a revenue stream. But that's my personal assumption.

    It's not a black or white thing. I also don't think that creating raids has anything to do with it but both sides of the arguments make false assumptions and just because one argument is more wrong, doesn't make the other argument right somehow.

    So where it's perfectly fair to say that the creation of raids is not the problem or certainly not the entire problem, it's not fair to say that the open world focus can only be the issue.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So no, you cannot conclude from those revenue numbers that it can only be caused by a focus on open world content. The point that it coincides with the time period that other content is not coming out is called correllation and that is not the same as causation. That's the logic error you are making with your conclusion. It doesn't mean that it cannot be the cause, but it does mean that it doesn't prove that it's the actual cause and other causes are quite possible.

    Not sure why you felt the need to respond again to a part that I already answered. But tell this to @Blaeys.3102 above claiming that the game was losing revenue due to spreading too thin and creating Raids.

    Well let me ask you why you insist on something that has been demonstrated to be a logic error?

    You mean they made an error claiming that the reason for the revenue drop was because the company was too spread too thin trying to cater to raiders and pvpers and not only open world players? I'm not the one insisting on that you are responding to the wrong person. Again.

    The thing is that you're both wrong. So pointing out that his conclusions are incorrect doesn't absolve you from doing the same. The other guy being wrong, doesn't make you right in other words. And I'm talking to you about your comments, so stop dodging that by pointing at the other guy.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    The thing is that you're both wrong. So pointing out that his conclusions are incorrect doesn't absolve you from doing the same. The other guy being wrong, doesn't make you right in other words. And I'm talking to you about your comments, so stop dodging that by pointing at the other guy.

    You are talking about my comments, I'm talking about how you are dodging the other comments when they suit your narrative. I find it curious that you believe we are both wrong, yet you failed to answer that to the other side of the argument.

    Also, I'm not dodging, I already provided an answer to you:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1164577/#Comment_1164577
    Which you keep ignoring.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    You are right though that the focus of the game has been open world PvE and that's for very good reasons. I reckon it's the most used content by the player base and I think people should realise that things like PvP/WvW/Raids/Fractals are closer to niche content than general content. It's also the content you can do with sucky builds and that's important.

    so any kind of population drop (or revenue drop) can only attributed to that Open World focus.

    No it cannot only be attributed to that. That's my point. You are too narrow in your views to allow for other possibilities but I'll tell you this as a starting point: I am entirely focused on open world content, that's the part I enjoy in this game the most and I've stopped playing again.

    It might not be the primary reason to attribute revenue loss to, but it certainly is a way more reasonable estimate than the contrary: raids (or hardcore content) are to blame for everything. Which is exactly the mantra continually presented by some players here.

    The main difference between arguments presented in this thread, and I'll use the terms to represent both extremes here, casual and hardcore players (in a sense as far as taking part in challenging content):

    • hardcore players want some content be developed to them, with having had a niche of the development resources devoted to this content in the past
    • casual players want ALL the resources be devoted to their content, with a vast majority having been devoted currently and in the past already

    Those are two very different points to start and base arguments off of. Having players blame the already very small resources devoted to challenging content when the vast majority of resources have always been spent on casual content makes a lot less sense than the other way around, aka complaining that the already small amount of resources for challenging content has hit 0.

    Me personally, I've already expressed my position on this in the past: I think all players are needed. I think the current constraint on resources causes the prioritization of mass content, and open world content is mass content since most player partake in it, in hopes to keep as many players as possible.

    I do think that most players who are in favor of only open world content will have a rude awakening when this game seizes to perform financially, due to the lack of part of the player base. I simply don't believe that the only open world crowd makes up sufficient of a revenue stream. But that's my personal assumption.

    It's not a black or white thing. I also don't think that creating raids has anything to do with it but both sides of the arguments make false assumptions and just because one argument is more wrong, doesn't make the other argument right somehow.

    So where it's perfectly fair to say that the creation of raids is not the problem or certainly not the entire problem, it's not fair to say that the open world focus can only be the issue.

    True, and that will have to remain to be seen. So far the pure focus on only casual content has not panned out, but I will agree that there are far more severe issues at stake: most notably lack of content overall (aka expansions), a disappointing reveal and overall well performing strong competition.

    All I'm saying is: there is some posters who are absolutely sure that this game will thrive when all the resources get poured into open world casual content, when there is no strong numbers to support this assumption. It might very well be true, but it's not a given.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    The thing is that you're both wrong. So pointing out that his conclusions are incorrect doesn't absolve you from doing the same. The other guy being wrong, doesn't make you right in other words. And I'm talking to you about your comments, so stop dodging that by pointing at the other guy.

    You are talking about my comments, I'm talking about how you are dodging the other comments when they suit your narrative. I find it curious that you believe we are both wrong, yet you failed to answer that to the other side of the argument.

    Also, I'm not dodging, I already provided an answer to you:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1164577/#Comment_1164577
    Which you keep ignoring.

    You are dodging the moment you refer to other people rather than yourself. His commentary is irrelevant to you confusing correllation and causation.
    The comment you refer to I've read and contains the same logic errors that you keep repeating.

    It simply is impossible to attribute the population drop SOLELY to the focus on pve content without more data that actually supports that exclusivity. The data is just not sufficient but you keep saying it is. Saying that doesn't make it true. The drop CAN be attributed to other things just as easily and this is the problem in your reasoning.

    You see, you said this:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    it's exclusively focusing on Open World content for at least the last 8 months, so any kind of population drop (or revenue drop) can only attributed to that Open World focus. When it comes to content type of course, other factors, like the lack of expansions, build templates, gem store and so on are regardless of content type released.

    Those two sentences contradict each other. You simply cannot say that it can ONLY be attributed to something and then add exceptions. Then it's not only.

    So please make a choice. Are you maintaining the ONLY reason for the drop is the focus on open world or do you agree there are other factors involved that could cause the drop in revenue? Don't say both at the same time. That's called contradicting yourself.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    You are right though that the focus of the game has been open world PvE and that's for very good reasons. I reckon it's the most used content by the player base and I think people should realise that things like PvP/WvW/Raids/Fractals are closer to niche content than general content. It's also the content you can do with sucky builds and that's important.

    so any kind of population drop (or revenue drop) can only attributed to that Open World focus.

    No it cannot only be attributed to that. That's my point. You are too narrow in your views to allow for other possibilities but I'll tell you this as a starting point: I am entirely focused on open world content, that's the part I enjoy in this game the most and I've stopped playing again.

    It might not be the primary reason to attribute revenue loss to, but it certainly is a way more reasonable estimate than the contrary: raids (or hardcore content) are to blame for everything. Which is exactly the mantra continually presented by some players here.

    The main difference between arguments presented in this thread, and I'll use the terms to represent both extremes here, casual and hardcore players (in a sense as far as taking part in challenging content):

    • hardcore players want some content be developed to them, with having had a niche of the development resources devoted to this content in the past
    • casual players want ALL the resources be devoted to their content, with a vast majority having been devoted currently and in the past already

    Those are two very different points to start and base arguments off of. Having players blame the already very small resources devoted to challenging content when the vast majority of resources have always been spent on casual content makes a lot less sense than the other way around, aka complaining that the already small amount of resources for challenging content has hit 0.

    Me personally, I've already expressed my position on this in the past: I think all players are needed. I think the current constraint on resources causes the prioritization of mass content, and open world content is mass content since most player partake in it, in hopes to keep as many players as possible.

    I do think that most players who are in favor of only open world content will have a rude awakening when this game seizes to perform financially, due to the lack of part of the player base. I simply don't believe that the only open world crowd makes up sufficient of a revenue stream. But that's my personal assumption.

    It's not a black or white thing. I also don't think that creating raids has anything to do with it but both sides of the arguments make false assumptions and just because one argument is more wrong, doesn't make the other argument right somehow.

    So where it's perfectly fair to say that the creation of raids is not the problem or certainly not the entire problem, it's not fair to say that the open world focus can only be the issue.

    True, and that will have to remain to be seen. So far the pure focus on only casual content has not panned out, but I will agree that there are far more severe issues at stake: most notably lack of content overall (aka expansions), a disappointing reveal and overall well performing strong competition.

    All I'm saying is: there is some posters who are absolutely sure that this game will thrive when all the resources get poured into open world casual content, when there is no strong numbers to support this assumption. It might very well be true, but it's not a given.

    Well and I agree with you on that completely.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    You are right though that the focus of the game has been open world PvE and that's for very good reasons. I reckon it's the most used content by the player base and I think people should realise that things like PvP/WvW/Raids/Fractals are closer to niche content than general content. It's also the content you can do with sucky builds and that's important.

    so any kind of population drop (or revenue drop) can only attributed to that Open World focus.

    No it cannot only be attributed to that. That's my point. You are too narrow in your views to allow for other possibilities but I'll tell you this as a starting point: I am entirely focused on open world content, that's the part I enjoy in this game the most and I've stopped playing again.

    It might not be the primary reason to attribute revenue loss to, but it certainly is a way more reasonable estimate than the contrary: raids (or hardcore content) are to blame for everything. Which is exactly the mantra continually presented by some players here.

    The main difference between arguments presented in this thread, and I'll use the terms to represent both extremes here, casual and hardcore players (in a sense as far as taking part in challenging content):

    • hardcore players want some content be developed to them, with having had a niche of the development resources devoted to this content in the past
    • casual players want ALL the resources be devoted to their content, with a vast majority having been devoted currently and in the past already

    Those are two very different points to start and base arguments off of. Having players blame the already very small resources devoted to challenging content when the vast majority of resources have always been spent on casual content makes a lot less sense than the other way around, aka complaining that the already small amount of resources for challenging content has hit 0.

    Me personally, I've already expressed my position on this in the past: I think all players are needed. I think the current constraint on resources causes the prioritization of mass content, and open world content is mass content since most player partake in it, in hopes to keep as many players as possible.

    I do think that most players who are in favor of only open world content will have a rude awakening when this game seizes to perform financially, due to the lack of part of the player base. I simply don't believe that the only open world crowd makes up sufficient of a revenue stream. But that's my personal assumption> @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    You are right though that the focus of the game has been open world PvE and that's for very good reasons. I reckon it's the most used content by the player base and I think people should realise that things like PvP/WvW/Raids/Fractals are closer to niche content than general content. It's also the content you can do with sucky builds and that's important.

    so any kind of population drop (or revenue drop) can only attributed to that Open World focus.

    No it cannot only be attributed to that. That's my point. You are too narrow in your views to allow for other possibilities but I'll tell you this as a starting point: I am entirely focused on open world content, that's the part I enjoy in this game the most and I've stopped playing again.

    It might not be the primary reason to attribute revenue loss to, but it certainly is a way more reasonable estimate than the contrary: raids (or hardcore content) are to blame for everything. Which is exactly the mantra continually presented by some players here.

    The main difference between arguments presented in this thread, and I'll use the terms to represent both extremes here, casual and hardcore players (in a sense as far as taking part in challenging content):

    • hardcore players want some content be developed to them, with having had a niche of the development resources devoted to this content in the past
    • casual players want ALL the resources be devoted to their content, with a vast majority having been devoted currently and in the past already

    Those are two very different points to start and base arguments off of. Having players blame the already very small resources devoted to challenging content when the vast majority of resources have always been spent on casual content makes a lot less sense than the other way around, aka complaining that the already small amount of resources for challenging content has hit 0.

    Me personally, I've already expressed my position on this in the past: I think all players are needed. I think the current constraint on resources causes the prioritization of mass content, and open world content is mass content since most player partake in it, in hopes to keep as many players as possible.

    I do think that most players who are in favor of only open world content will have a rude awakening when this game seizes to perform financially, due to the lack of part of the player base. I simply don't believe that the only open world crowd makes up sufficient of a revenue stream. But that's my personal assumption.

    anyone who considers LW casual should take a look at other mmos, it is roughly on par with normal end game content
    and the big difference is, that doing the same content in other games will give some CHARACTER PROGRESSION
    i just spend over 5 hrs doing the latest story in STO, it was pretty hard, but at least i got a cool new cruiser for it
    and if they had made it easier, i would had done it on ALL my characters too
    very few was complaining over dungeons, hardcores farmed them, and the casuals didnt care
    then came fractals..same deal
    but when raiding arrived, we rightfully yelled out..that was THE THIRD END GAME SYSTEM they spend resources on
    and now we are at number four...see a pattern here?
    they have made a few easy hearts here and there, but they are ALWAYS hidden behind end game content
    i have never seen so good a game a with such a bad leadership, they never seemed to have any idea what they were going for
    and considering the manpower they have, we should have seen WAY more content, they are clearly still working on "other projects"

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    it's exclusively focusing on Open World content for at least the last 8 months, so any kind of population drop (or revenue drop) can only attributed to that Open World focus. When it comes to content type of course, other factors, like the lack of expansions, build templates, gem store and so on are regardless of content type released.

    Those two sentences contradict each other. You simply cannot say that it can ONLY be attributed to something and then add exceptions. Then it's not only.

    So please make a choice. Are you maintaining the ONLY reason for the drop is the focus on open world or do you agree there are other factors involved that could cause the drop in revenue? Don't say both at the same time. That's called contradicting yourself.

    Oh I absolutely agree that there are many factors involved, I posted some too, lack of expansions, the build template fiasco, uninteresting gem store items and so on. A revenue drop can never be attributed to the content type released alone, that's my stance and I will agree/promote it whenever I can. I can see how it might've been a contradiction, the "only" part was regarding content type released, didn't mean it as the Open World focus being the sole reason for the drop. Can't edit that "only" now as it would cause all other threads based on it make no sense. But I think I clarified it enough!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2020

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    You are right though that the focus of the game has been open world PvE and that's for very good reasons. I reckon it's the most used content by the player base and I think people should realise that things like PvP/WvW/Raids/Fractals are closer to niche content than general content. It's also the content you can do with sucky builds and that's important.

    so any kind of population drop (or revenue drop) can only attributed to that Open World focus.

    No it cannot only be attributed to that. That's my point. You are too narrow in your views to allow for other possibilities but I'll tell you this as a starting point: I am entirely focused on open world content, that's the part I enjoy in this game the most and I've stopped playing again.

    It might not be the primary reason to attribute revenue loss to, but it certainly is a way more reasonable estimate than the contrary: raids (or hardcore content) are to blame for everything. Which is exactly the mantra continually presented by some players here.

    The main difference between arguments presented in this thread, and I'll use the terms to represent both extremes here, casual and hardcore players (in a sense as far as taking part in challenging content):

    • hardcore players want some content be developed to them, with having had a niche of the development resources devoted to this content in the past
    • casual players want ALL the resources be devoted to their content, with a vast majority having been devoted currently and in the past already

    Those are two very different points to start and base arguments off of. Having players blame the already very small resources devoted to challenging content when the vast majority of resources have always been spent on casual content makes a lot less sense than the other way around, aka complaining that the already small amount of resources for challenging content has hit 0.

    Me personally, I've already expressed my position on this in the past: I think all players are needed. I think the current constraint on resources causes the prioritization of mass content, and open world content is mass content since most player partake in it, in hopes to keep as many players as possible.

    I do think that most players who are in favor of only open world content will have a rude awakening when this game seizes to perform financially, due to the lack of part of the player base. I simply don't believe that the only open world crowd makes up sufficient of a revenue stream. But that's my personal assumption> @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    You are right though that the focus of the game has been open world PvE and that's for very good reasons. I reckon it's the most used content by the player base and I think people should realise that things like PvP/WvW/Raids/Fractals are closer to niche content than general content. It's also the content you can do with sucky builds and that's important.

    so any kind of population drop (or revenue drop) can only attributed to that Open World focus.

    No it cannot only be attributed to that. That's my point. You are too narrow in your views to allow for other possibilities but I'll tell you this as a starting point: I am entirely focused on open world content, that's the part I enjoy in this game the most and I've stopped playing again.

    It might not be the primary reason to attribute revenue loss to, but it certainly is a way more reasonable estimate than the contrary: raids (or hardcore content) are to blame for everything. Which is exactly the mantra continually presented by some players here.

    The main difference between arguments presented in this thread, and I'll use the terms to represent both extremes here, casual and hardcore players (in a sense as far as taking part in challenging content):

    • hardcore players want some content be developed to them, with having had a niche of the development resources devoted to this content in the past
    • casual players want ALL the resources be devoted to their content, with a vast majority having been devoted currently and in the past already

    Those are two very different points to start and base arguments off of. Having players blame the already very small resources devoted to challenging content when the vast majority of resources have always been spent on casual content makes a lot less sense than the other way around, aka complaining that the already small amount of resources for challenging content has hit 0.

    Me personally, I've already expressed my position on this in the past: I think all players are needed. I think the current constraint on resources causes the prioritization of mass content, and open world content is mass content since most player partake in it, in hopes to keep as many players as possible.

    I do think that most players who are in favor of only open world content will have a rude awakening when this game seizes to perform financially, due to the lack of part of the player base. I simply don't believe that the only open world crowd makes up sufficient of a revenue stream. But that's my personal assumption.

    anyone who considers LW casual should take a look at other mmos, it is roughly on par with normal end game content

    No it is not. You are comparing gear related endgame content in other games, where players are restricted in performance by gear, to this game's open world performance of players. Suffice to say, if you actually are able to play this game and are semi competent at it, open world content is irrelevant on the easiest to attain gear (exotic, not even talking about ascended). That's on par with players in other games severely out-gearing the open world content there.

    There was a mention as to how big the performance disparity is between players recently. It was very big, along the lines of 1 to 10.

    So yes, if you take the absolute low end performance as comparison, that might be true. The games combat system allows for far better performance though which is entirely skill and build based. Other games, while also having builds and skill involved, limit a huge part of the performance behind gear.

    I honestly think every one should play this game as they see fit, and I too enjoy open world content. But if open world content in this game is a challenge to you, you are objectively very bad at the game (and this can have multiple reasons besides personal skill, it can be as simple as not bothering with creating a good build or understanding the very basics of this games combat). That's fine as is, but does not work as comparison to other games.

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    and the big difference is, that doing the same content in other games will give some CHARACTER PROGRESSION
    i just spend over 5 hrs doing the latest story in STO, it was pretty hard, but at least i got a cool new cruiser for it
    and if they had made it easier, i would had done it on ALL my characters too
    very few was complaining over dungeons, hardcores farmed them, and the casuals didnt care
    then came fractals..same deal

    I can't speak to STO since I haven't played that game in ages. I do know that the game was very gear intensive back in the day, meaning if something was "to hard" it was easily compensated with some adjustments to gear of the officer setup one had (aka build).

    As to gear progression, yes that is an issue for players who enjoy gear progressive systems (yet this has been the case for nearly 8 years by now). Not sure how this relates to instanced or open world content, since neither provides unique tier gear over the other.

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    but when raiding arrived, we rightfully yelled out..that was THE THIRD END GAME SYSTEM they spend resources on
    and now we are at number four...see a pattern here?

    I fail to see your argument here. During all this time, open world and story content has seen the primary amount of developer attention and resources devoted. The fact you consider something "end game" or not is not something that really matters in the resource allocation.

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    they have made a few easy hearts here and there, but they are ALWAYS hidden behind end game content

    That is factually untrue. The bulk of developer resources devote to GW2 has always been on open world and story content, 99% of which has been very easy. Not sure which endgame content you are referring to. I've been able to easily complete maps, stories and other goals in open world areas solo.

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    i have never seen so good a game a with such a bad leadership, they never seemed to have any idea what they were going for
    and considering the manpower they have, we should have seen WAY more content, they are clearly still working on "other projects"

    Well we can argue as much as we want about resources committed to other games, but this discussion has been about resource allocation WITHIN GW2.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    it's exclusively focusing on Open World content for at least the last 8 months, so any kind of population drop (or revenue drop) can only attributed to that Open World focus. When it comes to content type of course, other factors, like the lack of expansions, build templates, gem store and so on are regardless of content type released.

    Those two sentences contradict each other. You simply cannot say that it can ONLY be attributed to something and then add exceptions. Then it's not only.

    So please make a choice. Are you maintaining the ONLY reason for the drop is the focus on open world or do you agree there are other factors involved that could cause the drop in revenue? Don't say both at the same time. That's called contradicting yourself.

    Oh I absolutely agree that there are many factors involved, I posted some too, lack of expansions, the build template fiasco, uninteresting gem store items and so on. A revenue drop can never be attributed to the content type released alone, that's my stance and I will agree/promote it whenever I can. I can see how it might've been a contradiction, the "only" part was regarding content type released, didn't mean it as the Open World focus being the sole reason for the drop. Can't edit that "only" now as it would cause all other threads based on it make no sense. But I think I clarified it enough!

    Cool, then I think ...get ready... we are in agreement :)

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • ProtoGunner.4953ProtoGunner.4953 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It just hurts so much that my MMO franchise I played for so long is running into the downward spiral. I saw it coming; I mean how can you fare if you never really put out enough content? Even the expansions were not that big compared to the other big MMOs. And it was clear for me if they aren't even working on a new one this won't go well. And so it happened that I quite frankly quit playing the game after the prologue of Icebrood Saga. People want cantha, new land masses in a bunch and new features. But they aren't coming. So many things are stuck in time and never being released. It's just ridiculous. We aren't talking about a small chinese company which produces mobile games, we talk about Anet. Wow, I am speechless and sad.

  • I have no doubt that content releases play some role in revenue. So, what else is involved? Maybe the answer lies in just what ANet is putting into the store to generate revenue.

    Mount skins were the leaders in ensuring fairly stable revenue for 3 quarters in 2018. Then, the revenue plateau dropped from the 20-23 BKW level down to 15-16BKW from Q4-18 to Q3-19. How long has it been since we've seen a new mount skin package? It may well be that mount skins have reached a point of diminishing returns, due to an availability glut.

    What are some of the other items that have contributed significantly to revenue from the store? I have little doubt that bag and bank slots and shared inventory have been significant contributors. However, how many of the target market for such things already have what they need? How likely is it that these items no longer provide as significant a contribution to revenue as they once did? To me, this seems a foregone conclusion.

    So, were build/equipment loadouts/templates intended to take up the mantle of revenue leader? Whether ANet thought that or not, it's hard to imagine they didn't hope for big sales numbers on these items. Since Q4 is when these dropped, it certainly looks like that didn't happen.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    So no, you cannot conclude from those revenue numbers that it can only be caused by a focus on open world content. The point that it coincides with the time period that other content is not coming out is called correllation and that is not the same as causation. That's the logic error you are making with your conclusion. It doesn't mean that it cannot be the cause, but it does mean that it doesn't prove that it's the actual cause and other causes are quite possible.

    Not sure why you felt the need to respond again to a part that I already answered. But tell this to @Blaeys.3102 above claiming that the game was losing revenue due to spreading too thin and creating Raids.

    They need to focus on their core differentiators - open world, story and WvW. Anything that doesn't feed into those game modes needs to be put on hold indefinitely - including sPvP, raids, strike missions, etc. Focus all of those resources in the same area and make it as good as it can possibly be. Stop trying to compete for raiders from WoW or pvpers from LoL and make the parts of the game that offer something unique better and more fun.

    I wonder why you didn't post the same thing to them. Oh right because you agree with the "raids are evil" narrative.

    Ive never insinuated or even believed that raids are evil - just that they don't fit in this particular game. Yes, they can be fun. It is just that, to make raids work on the scale that will keep hardcore players interested, it would require a significantly higher investment and prioritization. From the beginning, you could tell the cadence would never match the demand and that players would have a hard time making a long term investment into them.

    I want harder content in the game. I always have. Raids - in the way they were done - were just the wrong model to follow - and I believe they were done solely so Anet could use the word raids in their marketing - a short term good idea, but a long term recipe for disaster. Hard mode should integrate into the rest of the game - repeatable hard modes for story journal steps, triggerable versions of open world bosses/events (using the guild event trigger) with enhanced/new mechanics and difficulties - more competitive elements in wvw - etc.

    Focus on the areas of the game that set you apart from the rest of the industry - and enhance those areas to appeal to a wider range of playstyle.

    Again, it isn't about hating raids. I raided 25-man progression hardcore in WoW for 6+ years and have raided a lot in GW2. They just don't fit here.

    Entry level marketing class tells us that when you try to be all things to all customers, you are going to lose the battle against competitors who master individual facets. Focus on what sets you apart and be better at it than anyone else out there (I cannot stress that enough - it is the underlying premise of almost every successful business worldwide). That is how you bring in customers that will remain loyal for years to come, which is really what the game needs more than anything.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I know people love finding scapegoats to justify the loss in revenue but this is getting ridiculous.

    Last Raid was released June 2019, 8 months ago
    Last Fractal was released January 2019, 13 months ago
    Last time we got something (how matter small) for PVP/WVW was November 2018, 15 months ago

    It's been a very long time that the game is almost exclusively focusing on open world PVE. So the reason for spreading so much and causing the revenue is because of the 5 Strikes they've released, out of which 2 of them were slight rehashes of story instance bosses. Meaning in almost 8 months the only non-open world content we got in the game was 3 platforms with a boss on top. Yes that can cause a massive split of resources and spread Arenanet too thin.

    As for losing players, they are already losing players in troves because they only focus on the open world, we already see it in their revenue.

    So, warclaw doesn't count as an update to WvW (no matter how small)?

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2020

    Financially, only one thing makes sense: focus the resources where they will lead to an optimized revenue stream.

    We can't see that data. And, neither ANet nor NCSoft is likely to tell us (although they should -- the game's life is at stake).

    IF they are managing things correctly, they are finding which players spend the most money on the game. Then, how MUCH money do they spend vs. the rest of the population? Once they know those, it is trivial to place resources into the right areas. It's simple math.

    The game needs content. PvE Fractals and raids is slow. Months; close to year(s) for one fractal stage or one raid (goes in kill 2-3 bosses). Any addition of such content usually sustained the rev for a period.

    PvP/WvW game mode has remained the same for a very long time, there's 2v2 but it never stayed. There's balancing patch once in a while targeting PvP/WvW occasionally, little attention I suppose, but the game mode (capture points) remained the same since day one. Everytime a new competitive game mode is introduced, there's numbers.

    Open world has story, but there's only so much it could do to retain after the players are done with the map/achievements. Replayability, not many will replay the story over and over and over.

    There's a̶n̶n̶o̶u̶n̶c̶e̶m̶e̶n̶t̶ hints* for Fractals, no details; yet. Rehiring and hiring new staffs :smile:, not sure if it's a team for specific content or general.

  • Einlanzer.1627Einlanzer.1627 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Alyster.9470 said:
    Well, I blame to the overhyped icebrood saga announcement which made some people quit if they were not even going to. Continuous letdown releases such as build templates and no mention of elite specs also made it worse. Abandoning most content and not communicating with the community in time to give people something look forward to is just another thing that makes most people lose their faith thus they dont want to spend more on the game as they think its death is coming. Some good communication were made in the last few weeks but I guess that was a bit late considering all the backlash and drama already hit the point of no return for some players.

    This pretty much hits the nail on the head. The misguided PAX event combined with the terrible rollout of build templates after a long time with very insufficient updates were a nail in the coffin.

    It's really quite unreal how challenging it seems to be for Anet to develop the game. They don't have a small dev team... it seems obvious that something is extremely wrong with the way they're structured.

  • Solvar.7953Solvar.7953 Member ✭✭✭

    Just something to keep in mind, that at some point, GW2 will go into maintenance mode with no new content. Probably bug fixes (so people can keep playing) and gemstore skins (so people spend money). This could be 2 years away, could be 10 years. Hard to really know.
    However, I would not expect this to be a sudden cutoff of all new content - I'd expect Anet to slowly drop the less important things (folks can debate what those things are and how that should be determined).
    I'd also think at some time, the transition may be to content to get players to come back, even if only for a few hours to complete the latest story or whatever that content is. In the hope that maybe they can hook them again, or get them to buy something else from the gemstore.
    I'd personally think that some types of contents may be more likely to draw those players back in than others, which might also determine what Anet puts their effort into.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I know people love finding scapegoats to justify the loss in revenue but this is getting ridiculous.

    Last Raid was released June 2019, 8 months ago
    Last Fractal was released January 2019, 13 months ago
    Last time we got something (how matter small) for PVP/WVW was November 2018, 15 months ago

    It's been a very long time that the game is almost exclusively focusing on open world PVE. So the reason for spreading so much and causing the revenue is because of the 5 Strikes they've released, out of which 2 of them were slight rehashes of story instance bosses. Meaning in almost 8 months the only non-open world content we got in the game was 3 platforms with a boss on top. Yes that can cause a massive split of resources and spread Arenanet too thin.

    As for losing players, they are already losing players in troves because they only focus on the open world, we already see it in their revenue.

    So, warclaw doesn't count as an update to WvW (no matter how small)?

    Someone already responded to my post so editing it afterwards would make future posts make no sense.

    Here you go:

    Last Raid was released June 2019, 8 months ago
    Last time we got something for WVW was March 2019, 11 months ago
    Last Fractal was released January 2019, 13 months ago
    Last time we got something for PVP was November 2018, 15 months ago

    I'm not sure how adding the Warclaw actually changes the results of my post though. The last 8 months, Q3 2019, Q4 2019 and Q1 2020 so far only contained open world releases. Exclusively. And yet there is talk about Arenanet spreading too thin to cater to all types of players.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So, lance doesn't count either? That makes it three months, and that time period included Wintersday and New Year, hardly the time for new stuff.

    And isn't PvP getting something RIGHT NOW? I wouldn't know myself, but I keep seeing threads about something to do with Swiss.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    So, lance doesn't count either? That makes it three months, and that time period included Wintersday and New Year, hardly the time for new stuff.

    And isn't PvP getting something RIGHT NOW? I wouldn't know myself, but I keep seeing threads about something to do with Swiss.

    It's a beta. That it took them 15 months to -start- a beta for a new PVP feature is astonishing!

  • Zok.4956Zok.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    So, lance doesn't count either? That makes it three months, and that time period included Wintersday and New Year, hardly the time for new stuff.

    And isn't PvP getting something RIGHT NOW? I wouldn't know myself, but I keep seeing threads about something to do with Swiss.

    It's a beta. That it took them 15 months to -start- a beta for a new PVP feature is astonishing!

    15 months is nothing. The announcement about WvW-alliances had already its 2nd birthday and there is not even a beta announced. ;)

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  • Look at servers quality, more than 30 people bottlenecks the whole server... I dont think people want to struggle with this

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zok.4956 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    So, lance doesn't count either? That makes it three months, and that time period included Wintersday and New Year, hardly the time for new stuff.

    And isn't PvP getting something RIGHT NOW? I wouldn't know myself, but I keep seeing threads about something to do with Swiss.

    It's a beta. That it took them 15 months to -start- a beta for a new PVP feature is astonishing!

    15 months is nothing. The announcement about WvW-alliances had already its 2nd birthday and there is not even a beta announced. ;)

    Arenanet is spread too thin, they've been doing so much for non-Open World content that it's taking a toll on their resources. They need to focus their resources more on the Open World because the game will die otherwise, revenue is dropping so they must take action. Next PVP feature will come in 30 months now (if even that), to focus more PVP resources on creating PVE Story instances, meanwhile WVW-Alliances will be postponed -further- to create more Open World meta events.

  • @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I know people love finding scapegoats to justify the loss in revenue but this is getting ridiculous.

    Last Raid was released June 2019, 8 months ago
    Last Fractal was released January 2019, 13 months ago
    Last time we got something (how matter small) for PVP/WVW was November 2018, 15 months ago

    It's been a very long time that the game is almost exclusively focusing on open world PVE. So the reason for spreading so much and causing the revenue is because of the 5 Strikes they've released, out of which 2 of them were slight rehashes of story instance bosses. Meaning in almost 8 months the only non-open world content we got in the game was 3 platforms with a boss on top. Yes that can cause a massive split of resources and spread Arenanet too thin.

    As for losing players, they are already losing players in troves because they only focus on the open world, we already see it in their revenue.

    So, warclaw doesn't count as an update to WvW (no matter how small)?

    You can count your points until they shut this whole thing down. What matters is the player response. Warclaw was a legitimate addition, but it's been a year since it released. That is not enough. But it's worse than that. Swiss Tournament? Alliances? This stuff has been promised for years. This is not how a game succeeds.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I know people love finding scapegoats to justify the loss in revenue but this is getting ridiculous.

    Last Raid was released June 2019, 8 months ago
    Last Fractal was released January 2019, 13 months ago
    Last time we got something (how matter small) for PVP/WVW was November 2018, 15 months ago

    It's been a very long time that the game is almost exclusively focusing on open world PVE. So the reason for spreading so much and causing the revenue is because of the 5 Strikes they've released, out of which 2 of them were slight rehashes of story instance bosses. Meaning in almost 8 months the only non-open world content we got in the game was 3 platforms with a boss on top. Yes that can cause a massive split of resources and spread Arenanet too thin.

    As for losing players, they are already losing players in troves because they only focus on the open world, we already see it in their revenue.

    So, warclaw doesn't count as an update to WvW (no matter how small)?

    Someone already responded to my post so editing it afterwards would make future posts make no sense.

    Here you go:

    Last Raid was released June 2019, 8 months ago
    Last time we got something for WVW was March 2019, 11 months ago
    Last Fractal was released January 2019, 13 months ago
    Last time we got something for PVP was November 2018, 15 months ago

    I'm not sure how adding the Warclaw actually changes the results of my post though. The last 8 months, Q3 2019, Q4 2019 and Q1 2020 so far only contained open world releases. Exclusively. And yet there is talk about Arenanet spreading too thin to cater to all types of players.

    This is it. The point is that it's been a while since those modes got much of anything added to them. And that's the focus point I think.

    At the same time, I've got the feeling that this is not a new development for PvP/WvW. For those modes it's a bit of an ongoing thing that they get ignored which is normal in casual oriented MMOs but it can't be good for the populations in PvP/WvW that they get so little attention outside of balancing updates, so I can understand they are not happy with the game and might leave. I feel this is a bit of a vicious cycle because when PvP/WvW doesn't get much in updates, those modes lose players over time and then because of that, there is no business case to invest more. The same has happened in SWTOR where PvP has been treated poorly over the years and because of the reduced numbers in battlemaps they call warzones, all they got is some reskinned versions of old maps and only a handful of new ones over the years. Different game but similar issue where the game actually causes the decline of population and then causes the numbers to be too low for investing into it.

    Raiding, as ArenaNet said themselves, is niche content that only a small amount of players participate in so that player group is less significant in the total picture and they can't commit too many resources there. I believe their strike missions are an attempt to create a business case to be able to go on with that content because it seems to me that raids are not attracting enough players for them to keep going. This is worrisome because I think this isn't the right approach and it won't work and what happens then with raiding?

    Fractals is the one that suprised me most. It's a year ago now and they did say that a new one will be made soon...whatever that means but it's a type of content I thought was pretty popular and warranted regular releases. So I didn't expect this to've gone without anything new for over a year. But once a year might be all it's gonna get.

    I find it difficult to say too much with regards to these content modes you listed because only for raids I know (because they said so) that there is only a small group of players there. I do not know if there are that many people still playing WvW or PvP and I certainly have no clue about Fractals. I sometimes do feel that if there are a lot of people playing something they leave it be and when there's not enough people playing it...they leave it be.

    I guess that the story and open world content is easier for them to make and to replicate into new maps so that's what they do, but the irony is that the players who enjoy that aren't that happy either but for different reasons. They get content but it often isn't long-term or appealing/enjoyable for them. I personally really like Bjora Marches visually, didn't care for the high repetition of the same events to level the masteries and don't care about the strike missions either and the Drakkar fight has lost my interest also. Beautiful map to look at, just nothing I really care to repeat there anymore. It is a bit sad that I finally raised the masteries to get the best level of rewards and now that I can get those rewards I stopped playing... because the content already is stale and the RNG set up of rewards doesn't really feel useful. It's mostly geared towards the crafting of boreal weapons but I don't care for those. The better versions are rare drops in that drakkar fight but those have the wrong color for me (yellow). So I have to choose between blue (which I do like) but lesser effects or better effects but a color I don't like. Just to highlight that even though I'm a more casual player, the content that I do get isn't working as well as it should either.

    So in summary, WvW and PvP rarely get content, raids and fractals have been a while as well, and we do get story and open world content but it's not done right.

    Did I miss something?

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Zok.4956Zok.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    I do not know if there are that many people still playing WvW or PvP and I certainly have no clue about Fractals.

    About WvW:
    Because a lof of WvW players left the game already and some servers became ghost-towns, the problem of population imbalances between servers became a much bigger problem and that is why Anet has put several servers together that then play as one server, the server-links. And over time more and more servers are linked, so this is a sign, that more and more players continue leaving WvW.

    The servers-links do not really solve the existing population imbalances very good, so Anet presented the idea of the alliance-system, that should replace the WvW-servers, more than two years ago, as a solution.

    So yes, there are (a lot of) players still playing WvW. But how much of a niche content it already became compared to other game types? I do not know.

    So in summary, WvW and PvP rarely get content, raids and fractals have been a while as well, and we do get story and open world content but it's not done right.

    Did I miss something?

    We do get regularly new skins and other things (like templates/loadouts) we can buy in the gem-shop. ;)

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  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    As for losing players, they are already losing players in troves because they only focus on the open world, we already see it in their revenue.

    This may not correlate. Lower revenue doesn't necessarily mean the loss of players. It could be that the player base is relatively stable, but just aren't purchasing anything. I still believe that players gravitate toward those events that bring them the most gold per hour and that those players never need to spend real money on anything as they have plenty of gold to convert to gems.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    As for losing players, they are already losing players in troves because they only focus on the open world, we already see it in their revenue.

    This may not correlate. Lower revenue doesn't necessarily mean the loss of players. It could be that the player base is relatively stable, but just aren't purchasing anything. I still believe that players gravitate toward those events that bring them the most gold per hour and that those players never need to spend real money on anything as they have plenty of gold to convert to gems.

    I agree, but with provisos.

    WvW, PvP, and high-end content (hard-core) are the least populated in the game. Best guess based on surveys is a smaller portion of the player base.

    However, I suspect that the hard-core players average per player spending in the gem store is significantly higher than the spending of the more casual population in open world. So, while I don't think they should focus heavily on those players, they should probably focus more highly than they do on them. (See my post on finances and communication somewhere on page four.)

  • Bassdeff.1895Bassdeff.1895 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    As for losing players, they are already losing players in troves because they only focus on the open world, we already see it in their revenue.

    This may not correlate. Lower revenue doesn't necessarily mean the loss of players. It could be that the player base is relatively stable, but just aren't purchasing anything. I still believe that players gravitate toward those events that bring them the most gold per hour and that those players never need to spend real money on anything as they have plenty of gold to convert to gems.

    I agree, but with provisos.

    WvW, PvP, and high-end content (hard-core) are the least populated in the game. Best guess based on surveys is a smaller portion of the player base.

    However, I suspect that the hard-core players average per player spending in the gem store is significantly higher than the spending of the more casual population in open world. So, while I don't think they should focus heavily on those players, they should probably focus more highly than they do on them. (See my post on finances and communication somewhere on page four.)

    You also have to think about how much effort it is to keep each player happy and spending money. If I were to wager, i would bet that casuals require significantly less effort to please and extract money from and significantly outnumber hard core players.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zok.4956 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:
    I do not know if there are that many people still playing WvW or PvP and I certainly have no clue about Fractals.

    About WvW:
    Because a lof of WvW players left the game already and some servers became ghost-towns, the problem of population imbalances between servers became a much bigger problem and that is why Anet has put several servers together that then play as one server, the server-links. And over time more and more servers are linked, so this is a sign, that more and more players continue leaving WvW.

    The servers-links do not really solve the existing population imbalances very good, so Anet presented the idea of the alliance-system, that should replace the WvW-servers, more than two years ago, as a solution.

    So yes, there are (a lot of) players still playing WvW. But how much of a niche content it already became compared to other game types? I do not know.

    Well that could then mean they think WvW is doing fine so doesn't need attention. In the end loyalty tends to get rewarded with being taken for granted.

    So in summary, WvW and PvP rarely get content, raids and fractals have been a while as well, and we do get story and open world content but it's not done right.

    Did I miss something?

    We do get regularly new skins and other things (like templates/loadouts) we can buy in the gem-shop. ;)

    Hah, yeh, I think game companies do call that content now.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2020

    The new Glacial Harvesting Tool is a great example why revenue might be dropping.

    We simply can no longer trust the store for having quality items.

    1.) Unbound Harvesting Tool (Multiple Hits One Press)
    2.) Volatile Tool Harvesting Tool (Multiple Hits One Press)
    3.) Skyscale Harvesting Tool (Mulitple Hits One Press)
    4.) Glacial Harvesting Tool (Have fun waiting and pressing over and over....)
    PSA: Do not use Bountiful with Glacial Harvesting Tool.

    When new items are all the sudden inferior to old items, smart consumers stop buying things blindly. A lot of times, I just forget to buy something because I haven't verified if something works the way I expect it to.

    I would never use the animation for the Glacial Harvesting Tool. Which is the prime reason for buying the tool. I would buy it for the look, if it was the same or better than the current tools I have to chose from; yet, for no apparent reason, it is worse than other tools that I own. So even on the characters wher eit would fit the theme, I would not use it.

    I won't even discuss how bad the glyph is...

    We can add numerous other recent debacles like the advertised "Charr" chair. The legionnaire chair looked epic with a Charr sitting in it in the advertised image on the store. When you bought it, it looked like an adult sitting in a child's play chair. The fix...the advertised image was changed to an Asura.... There have been quite a few other debacles recently... Loosing players trust is costly.

  • Obfuscate.6430Obfuscate.6430 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2020

    I'm probably going to be the oddman out here in the comments, but for me there are a few contributing factors like mmorpgs losing popularity in general but Guild Wars 2 has never had good advertising and has had to rely on word of mouth. Who are the most vocal and visible right now, and what are they saying about this game these days?

    The economy in north america and it's aging player base may be affecting things. The cost of living is on the rise while wages are not rising fast enough to meet that cost. Time is now a commodity some of us don't have. I went from living with 2 other people at launch to living on my own during the past couple of years. That has changed my income and how much time I have. That is no fault of the game at all. I think it's prices are fair and attainable for the game and it's expansions. I think it's gem shop is also extremely fair. But - since it is skins and we have a finite amount of characters and no incentive to make more there will come a point when we may like a skin but have nowhere to display it since we are already happy with the aesthetics we achieved on our current alts.

    Which brings me to the next point; the lack of incentives to play again or make a new character, except if you want to display some new set of armor or weapon skins. Achievements are account wide, so I can't go for them again. There is no reason not to use Tomes of Knowledge to instantly level my character. Guild Wars 1 solved this to a degree by creating an iron man achievement (get to max level without dying to unlock an achievement) and creating the Hall of Monuments where you could display your miniatures, your armor sets, your weapon sets and various other achievements - which you could show off to your friends. It was very satisfying.

    Guild Wars 2's home feature could potentially have this and I think that would at least temporarily increase replayability or maybe gem shop purchases. It would be a pain for developers but potentially extend the longevity of it's game.

    Finally, a more subjective view, at least for me is the complete tonal shift from what the game story was like from launch to what it is now. The threat of Zhaitan loomed but never took away from the light aspects of the story and characters; humor, wholesome fun - silliness that makes the story and characters endearing. There were always dark elements but the overtone was bright. That is completely shadowed now. The current story telling and atmosphere is gritty to a degree that makes it oppressive with no relief. When you think about what is going on in the news globally and you think about why people play games - is Guild Wars 2 bringing the escapism people are looking for? I logged in to Bjora Marches and watched a kodan kill himself so I mean...yeah. Not to quote the kodan intentionally but I feel that balance has been lost.

    What HAS kept me playing and making gem shop purchases? I love mounts. I love mapping. Guild Wars 2 inspires me as an artist and a writer. Even though it was never marketted for my particular denomination for a time, as a creative person this was a font of endless material to work with. It was escapism, and catharsis and it was beautiful and full of life and humor. That is sort of gone now. I still play because it's one of the few things me and my LDR bf can do together. But many other aspects of the game isolate and exclude me because I don't have the time anymore to dedicate - my work schedule is too random to allow me to join a raiding guild for example so I have never been able to try that.

    There are many things. This game is still beautiful and one of a kind and I play it exclusively. I want it to come back strong. I think it can but we need some fresh eyes on this. That is what made it a success in the first place. It started as a breath of fresh air.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2020

    Wages are up, on average, more than the cost of living in the US.

    Personally it is pretty simple. I have not liked gemstore additions much for some time. Content additions have not been of a sort for me to be inclined to spend real money for those things that might have been of interest to me. The game is alt-unfriendly for me so I tend to focus on one character, meaning that all of the various items of value to multiple characters are not much of interest to me.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    The new Glacial Harvesting Tool is a great example why revenue might be dropping.

    We simply can no longer trust the store for having quality items.

    1.) Unbound Harvesting Tool (Multiple Hits One Press)
    2.) Volatile Tool Harvesting Tool (Multiple Hits One Press)
    3.) Skyscale Harvesting Tool (Mulitple Hits One Press)
    4.) Glacial Harvesting Tool (Have fun waiting and pressing over and over....)
    PSA: Do not use Bountiful with Glacial Harvesting Tool.

    When new items are all the sudden inferior to old items, smart consumers stop buying things blindly. A lot of times, I just forget to buy something because I haven't verified if something works the way I expect it to.

    I would never use the animation for the Glacial Harvesting Tool. Which is the prime reason for buying the tool. I would buy it for the look, if it was the same or better than the current tools I have to chose from; yet, for no apparent reason, it is worse than other tools that I own. So even on the characters wher eit would fit the theme, I would not use it.

    I won't even discuss how bad the glyph is...

    We can add numerous other recent debacles like the advertised "Charr" chair. The legionnaire chair looked epic with a Charr sitting in it in the advertised image on the store. When you bought it, it looked like an adult sitting in a child's play chair. The fix...the advertised image was changed to an Asura.... There have been quite a few other debacles recently... Loosing players trust is costly.

    Well, I like the idea of a glyph for karma. Speed might be valuable, but it's not the only glyph out there.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bassdeff.1895 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    As for losing players, they are already losing players in troves because they only focus on the open world, we already see it in their revenue.

    This may not correlate. Lower revenue doesn't necessarily mean the loss of players. It could be that the player base is relatively stable, but just aren't purchasing anything. I still believe that players gravitate toward those events that bring them the most gold per hour and that those players never need to spend real money on anything as they have plenty of gold to convert to gems.

    I agree, but with provisos.

    WvW, PvP, and high-end content (hard-core) are the least populated in the game. Best guess based on surveys is a smaller portion of the player base.

    However, I suspect that the hard-core players average per player spending in the gem store is significantly higher than the spending of the more casual population in open world. So, while I don't think they should focus heavily on those players, they should probably focus more highly than they do on them. (See my post on finances and communication somewhere on page four.)

    You also have to think about how much effort it is to keep each player happy and spending money. If I were to wager, i would bet that casuals require significantly less effort to please and extract money from and significantly outnumber hardcore players.

    You could be correct, but I'll bet the hardcores spend more money when they get convinced.

    ANet would have to tell us the facts. My hope is that they are actually viewing them in a way that helps increase revenue.

    And most importantly, they need to TELL US!

  • Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2020

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    The new Glacial Harvesting Tool is a great example why revenue might be dropping.

    We simply can no longer trust the store for having quality items.

    1.) Unbound Harvesting Tool (Multiple Hits One Press)
    2.) Volatile Tool Harvesting Tool (Multiple Hits One Press)
    3.) Skyscale Harvesting Tool (Mulitple Hits One Press)
    4.) Glacial Harvesting Tool (Have fun waiting and pressing over and over....)
    PSA: Do not use Bountiful with Glacial Harvesting Tool.

    When new items are all the sudden inferior to old items, smart consumers stop buying things blindly. A lot of times, I just forget to buy something because I haven't verified if something works the way I expect it to.

    I would never use the animation for the Glacial Harvesting Tool. Which is the prime reason for buying the tool. I would buy it for the look, if it was the same or better than the current tools I have to chose from; yet, for no apparent reason, it is worse than other tools that I own. So even on the characters wher eit would fit the theme, I would not use it.

    I won't even discuss how bad the glyph is...

    We can add numerous other recent debacles like the advertised "Charr" chair. The legionnaire chair looked epic with a Charr sitting in it in the advertised image on the store. When you bought it, it looked like an adult sitting in a child's play chair. The fix...the advertised image was changed to an Asura.... There have been quite a few other debacles recently... Loosing players trust is costly.

    Well, I like the idea of a glyph for karma. Speed might be valuable, but it's not the only glyph out there.

    3 karma per strike, extremely insignificant vs the other resources due to karma costs.

  • Ryou.2398Ryou.2398 Member ✭✭✭

    @Bassdeff.1895 said:
    Anet needs and better PR department. Players would prbably be more willing to open up their wallet if they felt confident that the game wasn't being put into maintenance mode. With all the drama that happened in 2019 and their historical ability over hype and under deliver many players are on the fence with a "I'll believe it when I see it and then maybe I will spend money" attitude.

    This is one of the most obvious reasons, we need to see more action then words on improvements for the game without adding more qol features, we have plenty of that.

    If you want to find the secrets of the universe think in terms of energy frequency and vibration Nikola Tesla.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kurrilino.2706 said:

    @arkinia.6952 said:
    Offer a subscription as an option.

    We already have that. It's called Gem's.
    You can buy monthly if you desire so.

    The ship has sailed but you missed the point, we don't have that. This is not the same. In a sub model you would get gems, but you would also gain other benefits since you were now a planned income. Businesses run on budgets and sub-models plan for that income to determine how they will manage that business. In this model proposed by various threads over time it would provide gems and additional features. The additional might come in the form of discounted gems, access to missing Living World material, extra storage and other features. What makes that different from someone just spending extra cash on buying gems is that a business could count on that whereas with just gem sales they can't so they pay a bit more premium on the planned sales. Aka they would have to create value that players would sign up for that wouldn't impact the B2P playerbase they have.

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @arkinia.6952 said:
    Offer a subscription as an option.

    You can already do this. Spend $20/mo on gems and there is your subscription. Optional for you and not mandatory for everyone else. The whole "optional subscription" idea is tiresome.

    @kharmin.7683

    Most of the time I can relate to your posts, but I disagree with your position and word choice here. You state"You are a very casual gamer." and that this "is tiresome". These conflict, your point is moot since this about non-casual gamers, which is not you. Its about getting support of people spending more time in game and what they could have done better. I already support the game via gem sales, but they have no optional value add model and will therefore lose sales. Casual gamers don't have to spend money on B2P games because there are offers to non-casual gamers to support those additional free features. If want people to pledge to spend ongoing money on development you have to give them more. This is less gaming and more business. If I want investors to buy my stock I need to pay in dividends else expect less people to buy my stock. Its ok to be B2P player that doesn't want to spend more on the game, but stop trying to drive away previous supporters that are looking for more reasons to continue to spend real money on future development.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/Civ6/CU/AoC/NW

  • @Margol.3267 said:
    Ncsoft quarterly earnings are up Guild Wars 2 down by 25%. It was probably the lowest quarter in games history, yearly revenue is down aswell

    Without expansion this game future doesn't look good. Cantha!

    Honestly the main issue with Anet when it comes to GW2 is the monetization... One cheap expansion that includes all past expansions/core isnt gonna pay the bills..And Living World comes free if you simply log in.. Only the Gemstore makes money, but even that is for convenience or cosmetics

  • coso.9173coso.9173 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think it's unrealistic to hope for especs in each new expansion. Most expacs ad like 2 new class or skill line in other games. And especs means basically 9 new classes. Which is simply a lot of work.

  • CerealNumber.9348CerealNumber.9348 Member ✭✭
    edited February 23, 2020

    5 year player reporting.
    I agree the ice brood saga hype was a disappointment but the content itself I enjoy a lot. I've definitely added storms and drakkar meta into my daily rotation and concert is something I hop into when I'm bored.
    I'm here though. For the end game. I've played BnS and BDO and Tera and old school wow/bc/wotlk and cata. But i'm here in the end because this game just hits all the right marks for me and what I want.

    I hope for the best and whether or not this is the downfall of GW2, I'll be here to ride it out to the end baby.

    What gw2 needs is heavy bikini armors and sexy legendary hammers.