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  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @YTKafka.4681 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    I am not sure i understand why deleting pet swap leads to more diversity. Isn't the reason why only few pets get used no matter what build is played (range pew pew dmg or axe spam tanky boonbeast or whatever) atm because few pets are simply much stronger than other pets overall? If anything the nerfs to pets bringing them more in line to each other will lead to more diversity in terms of what pets will be used, not the limitation to use only one pet.

    You're misunderstanding the reason behind the diversity problem Soulbeast has. It's not that the pets were ever the problem, it's that Soulbeast had all the advantages of Base Ranger, but better overall damage. There was no reason to run Base Ranger anymore. By removing the pet swapping the Devs are forcing players to chose between:

    2 pets
    or
    1 Pet and Merging.

    Those that want more pet options for utility would drop Soulbeast, and those that want direct bonuses while merged would take Soulbeast. Thus leading to more build diversity.

    Ah yes i missunderstood you. But I saw even Boyce running core Ranger over Soulbeast. It already had different strengths compared to Soulbeast and was picked for that. Also you already have to choose between merging and losing pet during merge vs better use pet depending on situation infight, that is the inherent trade off since release. A trade off that clearly adds skill ceiling/ floor and tactical complexity compared to an pretty easy core Ranger playstyle. I am not saying Soulbeast didn't need nerfs on his insane kit of a lot of skills, i just say normal nerfs to Soulbeast skills would do that too without deleting active and skill ceiling parts of the Soulbeast mechanic. And core Ranger would be picked even more often over Soulbeast.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hotte in space.2158 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    You rly should consider to rethink balance planes about Obsidian Flesh on Ele

    Thx bravan for mentioning OBSIDIAN FLESH.
    Nerfing this skill was intended to reduce tankyness of weaver. But as many weavers didnt even use focus, they will be able to compensate this change and still be viable in the future.
    For all core eles and tempests its the end. Obsidian Flesh is the one and only, most essential, indispensable defensive skill for them. Core ele and tempest were the weakest specs in PvP the last years, and the plan to nerf Obsidian Flesh means to bring them down from useless to absolutely useless.
    Playing tempest with a damage build (sage amulet/fire-stone traitline) I made it even up to P2 a few times (when lucky with matchmaking), but realistically P1 was the maximum possible to achieve the last seasons. There had been just a few core ele and tempest specialists left in PvP, but if this change on Obsidian Flesh should be realised, there will be non of them anymore. In the name of balance and diversity : DONT NERF OBSIDIAN FLESH !
    As there are not many playing core ele or tempest, there is also no lobby, no major feedback for them. Thats why I am happy about everybody who puts his finger on that problem. So thx again bravan^^

    Except the problem with Obsidian Flesh was that it was one of the only true invuln skills (things like Elixir S, Renewed Focus, skills like that) that allowed the character to be invulnerable and use all of their skills at the same time. Distortion is another one and I think that needs to get looked at as well and potentially get the same treatment considering the duration you can stack on it being pretty similar in length.

    Now I know Endure Pain and Signet of Stone will get tossed into this particular discussion but what many people seem to forget is that Endure Pain and Signet of Stone only negate power damage and thats it. Conditions can still be applied and deal damage and CC effects can also still be applied. Which means you can still successfully lock down someone using Endure Pain or Signet of Stone for its duration whereas with other true invuln skills this was not possible and Obsidian Flesh just essentially gave the Ele free opportunities for damage. Obsidian Flesh essentially got the benefit of both worlds, the ability to still use skills as well as be completely immune to literally everything for 4 seconds.

    As for Tempest and Ele becoming "absolutely useless" in sPvP I honestly think that has less to do with how they worked and more to do with how overtuned Weaver has become as well as many other PoF elite specs were made. Look at how much of a monopoly PoF elite specs have had in sPvP over this span of 3 years, with some obvious exceptions, one of them being Renegade. Mirage being chief among them as it held a monopoly on both Power and Condi builds, regardless of your feelings or others ideas on how hard Mirage has had it over these years there was literally no reason to take Core or Chrono over it because just like every other PoF spec it was horrendously overtuned. The issue also lies in some fundamental issues with Conquest as a game mode and how it functions, as well as Solo/Duo Queue also being a fundamental problem with Ranked but that is an entirely different discussion and not something to dive deep into here.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2020

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @hotte in space.2158 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    You rly should consider to rethink balance planes about Obsidian Flesh on Ele

    Thx bravan for mentioning OBSIDIAN FLESH.
    Nerfing this skill was intended to reduce tankyness of weaver. But as many weavers didnt even use focus, they will be able to compensate this change and still be viable in the future.
    For all core eles and tempests its the end. Obsidian Flesh is the one and only, most essential, indispensable defensive skill for them. Core ele and tempest were the weakest specs in PvP the last years, and the plan to nerf Obsidian Flesh means to bring them down from useless to absolutely useless.
    Playing tempest with a damage build (sage amulet/fire-stone traitline) I made it even up to P2 a few times (when lucky with matchmaking), but realistically P1 was the maximum possible to achieve the last seasons. There had been just a few core ele and tempest specialists left in PvP, but if this change on Obsidian Flesh should be realised, there will be non of them anymore. In the name of balance and diversity : DONT NERF OBSIDIAN FLESH !
    As there are not many playing core ele or tempest, there is also no lobby, no major feedback for them. Thats why I am happy about everybody who puts his finger on that problem. So thx again bravan^^

    Except the problem with Obsidian Flesh was that it was one of the only true invuln skills (things like Elixir S, Renewed Focus, skills like that) that allowed the character to be invulnerable and use all of their skills at the same time. Distortion is another one and I think that needs to get looked at as well and potentially get the same treatment considering the duration you can stack on it being pretty similar in length.

    Now I know Endure Pain and Signet of Stone will get tossed into this particular discussion but what many people seem to forget is that Endure Pain and Signet of Stone only negate power damage and thats it. Conditions can still be applied and deal damage and CC effects can also still be applied. Which means you can still successfully lock down someone using Endure Pain or Signet of Stone for its duration whereas with other true invuln skills this was not possible and Obsidian Flesh just essentially gave the Ele free opportunities for damage. Obsidian Flesh essentially got the benefit of both worlds, the ability to still use skills as well as be completely immune to literally everything for 4 seconds.

    As for Tempest and Ele becoming "absolutely useless" in sPvP I honestly think that has less to do with how they worked and more to do with how overtuned Weaver has become as well as many other PoF elite specs were made. Look at how much of a monopoly PoF elite specs have had in sPvP over this span of 3 years, with some obvious exceptions, one of them being Renegade. Mirage being chief among them as it held a monopoly on both Power and Condi builds, regardless of your feelings or others ideas on how hard Mirage has had it over these years there was literally no reason to take Core or Chrono over it because just like every other PoF spec it was horrendously overtuned. The issue also lies in some fundamental issues with Conquest as a game mode and how it functions, as well as Solo/Duo Queue also being a fundamental problem with Ranked but that is an entirely different discussion and not something to dive deep into here.

    Yeah but such comparisions between classes do not always make sense. Ofc adding a 3-4s invuln without skill lock out to everything a class like Warrior already has, a class that has already insane stat advantage compared to other classes, is facetanky as hell even on glassy speced builds or has still very high dmg on tanky speced builds, has a lot of other out of jail cards etc. would be a bad idea. Just like there are reasons current Warrior specs don't have access to teleports and stealth. There is a reason skills in core game were designed differently and why Engi, Guards and Warriors (classes with simply higher base defense and enough other stuff instead) have different invuln skills than Ele or Mesmer. With other words: Classes are different, they have different mechanics, different strengths and for that need to have different skills.

    Mesmer i would take out of this completely anyway, because it is not a just click a button for 4s invuln skill, it consumes all active class resources aside from the cd itself (the skill would cost way too much for the reward it gives when locking out of skills, it would even punish the Mesmer for collecting too many clones for a longer invuln, totally unlogical) and Mesmers are (same as FA Ele just on all builds) from the basic class mechanic build around comboing with instant shatters and cover casts with invuln. It would not make sense and would not be fair to treat their invuln skills like Warriors or Engis invuln skills (for all the bunker Ele specs it might be acceptable but not for glassy Ele specs like FA, a build that is like Mesmer build around comboing with instant stuff and cover casts with invuln. That is why Ele compared to Warrior also has blocks during the Ele can still cast other skills).

    Also other invuln skills have other rewards in addition to the invuln. Some are also stunbreaker, some reset other important skills (f skills on Guard). There is no logic behind making all invuln skills the same when classes are differently designed what creates the need for different designed invuln skills, classes have different need of using invuln time for other actions and when the invuln skills itself are not the same (as said other invuln skills have addition rewards). Mesmer once again would be doomed the most by this change. 1. the invuln skill doesn't have addition rewards (no stunbreak, no reset of other skills) and it has already double costs by cd itself and consuming all active class resources in addition. And it would be totally contrary to the class shatter mechanic, Mesmer would be clunky as hell. Maybe even unplayable on glassy specs, just like FA Ele because it contradicts the whole playstyle of the build/ class.

    Currently it seems the balance philosophy it to tar all with the same brush. To treat different stuff not different and even try to make different stuff equal without them being equal by basic nature (means there are reasons they are different and should stay different). Doesn't always make sense. Some stuff the origin def team did during creating and balancing the core game rly makes sense and should be retained for several reasons.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876
    I member playing axe/torch + scepter/pistol illu/domi/mirage.
    bloody hell its uphill battle against everything.
    not alot of healing, no weakness, no protection
    you deal good chunk of damage, you take kitten TON of damage, I liked axe, becouse even classes that usually lose to condi mes like warrior or rev have chance, good burst and im gonzo. but I for example cant immagine playing this build with.
    1 pistol damage halved
    2 sharper immages reduced by 90-95%
    3 all evasive skills nerfed, scepter 2 axe 3 and1 less dodge.
    to yall, MESMER IS NOT MENT TO HAVE PROTECTION. its illusionist, the reason why cmirage is toxic is becouse weakness+prot means that even if we get hit it doesnt matter most of the times.
    ambush damage isnt even strong anymore, there is no more "passive" damage.
    axe ambush is a joke, half the times clones dont use it, hit wrong targets, axes hit walls, etc etc + clones die.
    scepter ambush is 100% sharper img dmg and its nerfed into nothing
    and staff ambush never hits, unless point blank and then its 1,8k dmg anyways.
    Funny world we live in, where power mirage ambushes deal more dmg then condi. will 180 flip right there :D

  • @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @Nascull.5842 said:
    game patches are based on casual players that cannot handle the lose of a battle they complain and complain infinite (instead of studying a counter build setup) until the game is boring and evry class is kinda playable by a kid having down sydrome u will lose veteran players anet but im sure u guys do not care about that as long the new 1nes stream in that buy blindfolded gems anet just follows the gembuyers like a man follows his thing in pants

    these patches are achieving quite the opposite actually. All pvp veterans are comming back. The current meta carries worse players more than good players apparently.

    maybe ure right im just afraid that anet wil make wrong choices like in the past and the game will die at the end

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @hotte in space.2158 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    You rly should consider to rethink balance planes about Obsidian Flesh on Ele

    Thx bravan for mentioning OBSIDIAN FLESH.
    Nerfing this skill was intended to reduce tankyness of weaver. But as many weavers didnt even use focus, they will be able to compensate this change and still be viable in the future.
    For all core eles and tempests its the end. Obsidian Flesh is the one and only, most essential, indispensable defensive skill for them. Core ele and tempest were the weakest specs in PvP the last years, and the plan to nerf Obsidian Flesh means to bring them down from useless to absolutely useless.
    Playing tempest with a damage build (sage amulet/fire-stone traitline) I made it even up to P2 a few times (when lucky with matchmaking), but realistically P1 was the maximum possible to achieve the last seasons. There had been just a few core ele and tempest specialists left in PvP, but if this change on Obsidian Flesh should be realised, there will be non of them anymore. In the name of balance and diversity : DONT NERF OBSIDIAN FLESH !
    As there are not many playing core ele or tempest, there is also no lobby, no major feedback for them. Thats why I am happy about everybody who puts his finger on that problem. So thx again bravan^^

    Except the problem with Obsidian Flesh was that it was one of the only true invuln skills (things like Elixir S, Renewed Focus, skills like that) that allowed the character to be invulnerable and use all of their skills at the same time. Distortion is another one and I think that needs to get looked at as well and potentially get the same treatment considering the duration you can stack on it being pretty similar in length.

    Now I know Endure Pain and Signet of Stone will get tossed into this particular discussion but what many people seem to forget is that Endure Pain and Signet of Stone only negate power damage and thats it. Conditions can still be applied and deal damage and CC effects can also still be applied. Which means you can still successfully lock down someone using Endure Pain or Signet of Stone for its duration whereas with other true invuln skills this was not possible and Obsidian Flesh just essentially gave the Ele free opportunities for damage. Obsidian Flesh essentially got the benefit of both worlds, the ability to still use skills as well as be completely immune to literally everything for 4 seconds.

    As for Tempest and Ele becoming "absolutely useless" in sPvP I honestly think that has less to do with how they worked and more to do with how overtuned Weaver has become as well as many other PoF elite specs were made. Look at how much of a monopoly PoF elite specs have had in sPvP over this span of 3 years, with some obvious exceptions, one of them being Renegade. Mirage being chief among them as it held a monopoly on both Power and Condi builds, regardless of your feelings or others ideas on how hard Mirage has had it over these years there was literally no reason to take Core or Chrono over it because just like every other PoF spec it was horrendously overtuned. The issue also lies in some fundamental issues with Conquest as a game mode and how it functions, as well as Solo/Duo Queue also being a fundamental problem with Ranked but that is an entirely different discussion and not something to dive deep into here.

    Yeah but such comparisions between classes do not always make sense. Ofc adding a 3-4s invuln without skill lock out to everything a class like Warrior already has, a class that has already insane stat advantage compared to other classes, is facetanky as hell even on glassy speced builds or has still very high dmg on tanky speced builds, has a lot of other out of jail cards etc. would be a bad idea. Just like there are reasons current Warrior specs don't have access to teleports and stealth. There is a reason skills in core game were designed differently and why Engi, Guards and Warriors (classes with simply higher base defense and enough other stuff instead) have different invuln skills than Ele or Mesmer. Mesmer i would take out of this completely anyway, because it is not a just click a button for 4s invuln skill, it consumes all active class resources aside from the cd itself (the skill would cost way too much for the reward it gives when locking out of skills, it would even punish the Mesmer for collecting too many clones for a longer invuln, totally unlogic) and Mesmers are (same as FA Ele just on all builds) from the basic class mechanic build around comboing with instant shatters and cover casts with invuln. It would not make sense and would not be fair to treat their invuln skills like Warriors or Engis invuln skills (for all the bunker Ele specs it might be acceptable but not for glassy Ele specs like FA, a build that is like Mesmer build around comboing with instant stuff and cover casts with invuln. That is why Ele compared to Warrior also has blocks during the Ele can still cast other skills).

    Also other invuln skills have other rewards in addition to the invuln. Some are also stunbreaker, some reset other important skills (f skills on Guard). There is no logic behind making all invuln skills the same when classes are differently designed what creates the need for different designed invuln skills, classes have different need of using invuln time for other actions and when the invuln skills itself are not the same (as said other invuln skills have addition rewards). Mesmer once again would be doomed the most by this change. 1. the invuln skill doesn't have addition rewards (no stunbreak, no reset of other skills) and it has already double costs by cd itself and consuming all active class resources in addition. And it would be totally contrary to the class shatter mechanic, Mesmer would be clunky as hell. Maybe even unplayable on glassy specs, just like FA Ele because it contradicts the whole playstyle of the build/ class.

    Currently it seems the balance philosophy it to tar all with the same brush. To treat different stuff not different and even try to make different stuff equal without them being equal by basic nature (means there are reasons they are different and should stay different). Doesn't always make sense. Some stuff the origin def team did during creating and balancing the core game rly makes sense and should be retained for several reasons.

    The philosophy they used in using a wide brush to go over everything with the same changes was meant to establish a base to work from. They even say in this very thread that was the intent, so that they can use it as a point so make iterative changes on based on circumstances and how things might change when the update does hit. Thats likely why they didn't give Distortion the same treatment because of how it works but it could still potentially become a problem but we'll just have to wait and see.

    Its possible they do need to add an additional benefit to Obsidian Flesh but currently, even with the change that locks skills, it is still the shortest cooldown invuln skill in the game. When traited its a low 40 second cooldown compared to the 50, 60 and even over 90 second cooldowns other true invuln skills have. I understand Ele is typically seen as squishier than some of the other classes but it was essentially something that allowed things like Weaver to abuse evades and other defenses while running very high damage stats and being able to quite literally just attack people while they are completely immune to everything. Sure it wasn't a problem back in the Core days, but things are very different now and Weaver especially can abuse it.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2020

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @hotte in space.2158 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    You rly should consider to rethink balance planes about Obsidian Flesh on Ele

    Thx bravan for mentioning OBSIDIAN FLESH.
    Nerfing this skill was intended to reduce tankyness of weaver. But as many weavers didnt even use focus, they will be able to compensate this change and still be viable in the future.
    For all core eles and tempests its the end. Obsidian Flesh is the one and only, most essential, indispensable defensive skill for them. Core ele and tempest were the weakest specs in PvP the last years, and the plan to nerf Obsidian Flesh means to bring them down from useless to absolutely useless.
    Playing tempest with a damage build (sage amulet/fire-stone traitline) I made it even up to P2 a few times (when lucky with matchmaking), but realistically P1 was the maximum possible to achieve the last seasons. There had been just a few core ele and tempest specialists left in PvP, but if this change on Obsidian Flesh should be realised, there will be non of them anymore. In the name of balance and diversity : DONT NERF OBSIDIAN FLESH !
    As there are not many playing core ele or tempest, there is also no lobby, no major feedback for them. Thats why I am happy about everybody who puts his finger on that problem. So thx again bravan^^

    Except the problem with Obsidian Flesh was that it was one of the only true invuln skills (things like Elixir S, Renewed Focus, skills like that) that allowed the character to be invulnerable and use all of their skills at the same time. Distortion is another one and I think that needs to get looked at as well and potentially get the same treatment considering the duration you can stack on it being pretty similar in length.

    Now I know Endure Pain and Signet of Stone will get tossed into this particular discussion but what many people seem to forget is that Endure Pain and Signet of Stone only negate power damage and thats it. Conditions can still be applied and deal damage and CC effects can also still be applied. Which means you can still successfully lock down someone using Endure Pain or Signet of Stone for its duration whereas with other true invuln skills this was not possible and Obsidian Flesh just essentially gave the Ele free opportunities for damage. Obsidian Flesh essentially got the benefit of both worlds, the ability to still use skills as well as be completely immune to literally everything for 4 seconds.

    As for Tempest and Ele becoming "absolutely useless" in sPvP I honestly think that has less to do with how they worked and more to do with how overtuned Weaver has become as well as many other PoF elite specs were made. Look at how much of a monopoly PoF elite specs have had in sPvP over this span of 3 years, with some obvious exceptions, one of them being Renegade. Mirage being chief among them as it held a monopoly on both Power and Condi builds, regardless of your feelings or others ideas on how hard Mirage has had it over these years there was literally no reason to take Core or Chrono over it because just like every other PoF spec it was horrendously overtuned. The issue also lies in some fundamental issues with Conquest as a game mode and how it functions, as well as Solo/Duo Queue also being a fundamental problem with Ranked but that is an entirely different discussion and not something to dive deep into here.

    Yeah but such comparisions between classes do not always make sense. Ofc adding a 3-4s invuln without skill lock out to everything a class like Warrior already has, a class that has already insane stat advantage compared to other classes, is facetanky as hell even on glassy speced builds or has still very high dmg on tanky speced builds, has a lot of other out of jail cards etc. would be a bad idea. Just like there are reasons current Warrior specs don't have access to teleports and stealth. There is a reason skills in core game were designed differently and why Engi, Guards and Warriors (classes with simply higher base defense and enough other stuff instead) have different invuln skills than Ele or Mesmer. Mesmer i would take out of this completely anyway, because it is not a just click a button for 4s invuln skill, it consumes all active class resources aside from the cd itself (the skill would cost way too much for the reward it gives when locking out of skills, it would even punish the Mesmer for collecting too many clones for a longer invuln, totally unlogic) and Mesmers are (same as FA Ele just on all builds) from the basic class mechanic build around comboing with instant shatters and cover casts with invuln. It would not make sense and would not be fair to treat their invuln skills like Warriors or Engis invuln skills (for all the bunker Ele specs it might be acceptable but not for glassy Ele specs like FA, a build that is like Mesmer build around comboing with instant stuff and cover casts with invuln. That is why Ele compared to Warrior also has blocks during the Ele can still cast other skills).

    Also other invuln skills have other rewards in addition to the invuln. Some are also stunbreaker, some reset other important skills (f skills on Guard). There is no logic behind making all invuln skills the same when classes are differently designed what creates the need for different designed invuln skills, classes have different need of using invuln time for other actions and when the invuln skills itself are not the same (as said other invuln skills have addition rewards). Mesmer once again would be doomed the most by this change. 1. the invuln skill doesn't have addition rewards (no stunbreak, no reset of other skills) and it has already double costs by cd itself and consuming all active class resources in addition. And it would be totally contrary to the class shatter mechanic, Mesmer would be clunky as hell. Maybe even unplayable on glassy specs, just like FA Ele because it contradicts the whole playstyle of the build/ class.

    Currently it seems the balance philosophy it to tar all with the same brush. To treat different stuff not different and even try to make different stuff equal without them being equal by basic nature (means there are reasons they are different and should stay different). Doesn't always make sense. Some stuff the origin def team did during creating and balancing the core game rly makes sense and should be retained for several reasons.

    The philosophy they used in using a wide brush to go over everything with the same changes was meant to establish a base to work from. They even say in this very thread that was the intent, so that they can use it as a point so make iterative changes on based on circumstances and how things might change when the update does hit. Thats likely why they didn't give Distortion the same treatment because of how it works but it could still potentially become a problem but we'll just have to wait and see.

    They can do that with dmg coefficient, with condi and boon duration etc. these are things ofc can be equally turned down and then get fine adjusted later. But atm some planned changes are compeltely unlogical and bad and make specs clunky if not unplayable by contradicting their mechanics. You can treat stuff equally that is equal, you never should treat stuff equally that is per se different and for that needs different treatment. You can treat the same what is the same type of skill or same type of effect or same type of dmg coefficient but you cannot treat different class mechanics and different skill types the same. It will destroy inherent logic that was build up by the origin def team at game release for several reasons.

    Its possible they do need to add an additional benefit to Obsidian Flesh but currently, even with the change that locks skills, it is still the shortest cooldown invuln skill in the game. When traited its a low 40 second cooldown compared to the 50, 60 and even over 90 second cooldowns other true invuln skills have. I understand Ele is typically seen as squishier than some of the other classes but it was essentially something that allowed things like Weaver to abuse evades and other defenses while running very high damage stats and being able to quite literally just attack people while they are completely immune to everything. Sure it wasn't a problem back in the Core days, but things are very different now and Weaver especially can abuse it.

    The only invul skill with 90s cd is an elite skill that is not locking out of actions, it just locks out of playerskills while automatically doing something (resetting very strong and long cd f-skills). Means it is not totally dead time for the Guard (he is not doomed into passivity), he is invuln and refreshes his f skill cds and he doesn't even need to do that manually, the game does it for him. That is like triple/ quad the reward from Obsidian. Engi Elixir s has a stunbreak and an additional toolbelt skill (aoe stealth) included for only 60s cd on the invuln. Neither Guard nor Engi have restrictions in the accessibility of the invuln skill (Ele needs to be on right attunement and not have Earth on cd). 50s basic cd and no skill lock out is justified in comparision (also fits the way some Ele builds are suppose to be played way better, doesn't contradict FA mechanic). Maybe better think about replacing the cd reduction trait in Earth with something else instead? FA builds don't even use Earth traitline, if anything then bunker specs only use Earth. Bunker Ele specs can be nerfed on different places to be less tanky (and i suggest to go for passive facetank sustain first before touching active defense that needs to be timed well), no need to kill the very few active defense skills glassy Ele builds have.

    It is simple: If you want ppl to play less facetanky and less lame builds on a specific class, then you better do not kill these less lame and more skilled builds as a spin-off while nerfing op and braindead facetanky builds on that class (at least as long as you have other possible ways to nerf op builds without touching not op builds and in most cases you have other ways).

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KryTiKaL.3125
    if you wanna do blanket stuff like nerfing disort to the level of other classes make sure to go throught every mesmer ability and bring them to the same level.
    make sure that mesmer runs at perma 15-20 might like all other classes, make sure then heal 300k+/match passively like warrior for example.
    also make sure that their autoattacks hit for 3-5k for the first 2 hits and 5-8k for the third hit.
    doing all those things would be stupid BECOUSE mesmer has disort and blink and shatters are insta. but the moment you start messing with those advantages mesmer has, you gonna have to give mesmer same overtuned things other classes enjoy like
    1 insane damage basic attacks
    2 insane health recovery
    3 stupid amount of might generation
    4 singular skills that have potential of dealing over 20k dmg

  • SoulSin.5682SoulSin.5682 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2020

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Additional changes

    • Smokescreen: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds

    This seens unnecessary. You are just forcing thieves to go back to blinding powder at this point.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

    A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

    A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

    You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

    A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

    You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

    His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemble that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Malicious Backstab: Reduced power coefficients from 1.2/2.4 to 0.9/1.8

    FINALLY. granted more of a problem in wvw then here, but still. the deadeye rifle/ dagger +105%/ 70% bonus damage has no place in competitive modes, remove and replace with new functions, buff coefficients if necessary.


    keep at it lads, we can slowly remove teef from gaem.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

    A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

    You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

    His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

    But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

    You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

    Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet. You would be right if Soulbeast could use merge skills while the normal pet f skills and the pet itself are still active too. All what is needed is too reduce the overall power lvl of the Soulbeast skill ensemble (that can be done by dmg nerfs, increasing cds on single skills and removing double and triple rewards from overloaded skills). There is no need to delete parts of the mechanic itself/ delete active gameplay options to balance Soulbeast with a SECOND trade off.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • I always wished I could have experienced sPvP before the powercrept, short TTK, overloaded tool tip, rapid skill spam, high visual clutter era. Like many, I was looking forward to this big shakeup and reduction in global power levels. But I just can't get excited about it or the future of sPvP when the spec I've been loyal to since I started is, without exaggeration, effectively being removed from competitive modes.

    It doesn't take encyclopedic game knowledge to realize how ill-advised reducing Mirage to one dodge is. Many excellent points have already been made, by Mirage mains and non-mains alike, as to why this is so, and I will not repeat them.

    If ever there was a proposed change that needs to be walked back before it happens, it's this. There have been a number of head-scratchers in the past, and they should definitely be revisited. But making Mirage the only spec in the game with half a standard endurance bar in competitive modes is an entirely different level of kitten. We're talking about a drastic change to the one and only constant across all specs and modes since the beginning (Daredevil notwithstanding): the standard two-dodge endurance bar.

    Never mind how antithetical this change is to what Mirage is--its offense, defense, and basic design all revolve around Mirage Cloak, and have been allocated around this fact. Never mind how unplayable Mirage will be in competitive modes for all but the godliest players. How is one even to cycle between PvE and PvP/WvW without finding their basic combat rhythm completely upended? Much balancing effort seems to go into not making skill splits too functionally disparate across modes. What happened here? The difference between a one versus two-dodge endurance bar will be palpable, and absolutely jarring going from PvE to competitive.

    There have been countless suggestions as to how to balance Mirage, any number of which would be preferable to this change. From reducing the clone cap to two, to reducing clone auto-attack and ambush damage to virtually zero (and ideally moving that damage to the player's own attacks or to shatters), it baffles me why the most draconian of all possible changes, which is all but certain to backfire if the goal is to encourage active, skillful play, is what we're faced with.

    Please. Reconsider this.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    while merging

    and outside of merging, are those pet f skills magically gone? no? ok.

    No why should they? There is no need to make Rangerplayer lose all class mechanic just because Soulbeast can switch between 2 different types of class mechanics. Important is only that Soulbeast doesn't have both mechanics available at same time. Or do you want to have a Ranger suddently have no f skill and no pet at all anymore after each merge for a specific time? No other elite is forced to lose all class mechanic for a specific time. That makes no sense.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Biggest problem with the meta is being able to self stack 25 stacks of might then apply 8s of quickness. Biggest offenders being reaper warrior rev and ele

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

    A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

    You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

    His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

    But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

    You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

    Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

    I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

    Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.
    Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

    Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

    Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

    Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

    All 3 of those builds are way stronger than Soulbeast ever was and yet Soulbeast is losing a huge chunk of it's spec/playstyle.

    Soulbeast should get a 20% pet stat reduction imo, same as Druid.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

    A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

    You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

    His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

    But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

    You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

    Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

    I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

    Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.
    Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

    Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

    Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

    Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

    Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

    The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

    With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

    A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

    You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

    His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

    But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

    You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

    Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

    I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

    Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.
    Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

    Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

    Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

    Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

    Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

    The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

    With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

    ??

    The tomes are literally infinitely better than core virtues.

    Weavers can still single attune.

    Losing a single f5 skill is not a tradeoff.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

    A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

    You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

    His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

    But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

    You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

    Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

    I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

    Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.
    Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

    Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

    Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

    Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

    Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

    The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

    With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

    ??

    The tomes are literally infinitely better than core virtues.

    Doesn't matter. You lose something to gain something else.

    Weavers can still single attune.

    By single attuning twice or using a utility. They also have a global cooldown on attuning so it takes longer.

    Losing a single f5 skill is not a tradeoff.

    It's exactly what the tradeoffs are though?

    Just sounds like you are bogged down in effectiveness instead of what the trade offs, by Anets own words, are supposed to be.

    What it is is the tradeoff. How strong it is is balance.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

    A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

    You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

    His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

    But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

    You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

    Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

    I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

    Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.
    Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

    Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

    Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

    Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

    Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

    The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

    With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

    ??

    The tomes are literally infinitely better than core virtues.

    Doesn't matter. You lose something to gain something else.

    Weavers can still single attune.

    By single attuning twice or using a utility. They also have a global cooldown on attuning so it takes longer.

    Losing a single f5 skill is not a tradeoff.

    It's exactly what the tradeoffs are though?

    Just sounds like you are bogged down in effectiveness instead of what the trade offs, by Anets own words, are supposed to be.

    What it is is the tradeoff. How strong it is is balance.

    And Soulbeasts lose their pets to gain access to the merge skills. We literally trade our pets for 3 extra skills. That's a tradeoff, soulbeasts don't get access to both at the same time.

    "I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level."

    Guardian class mechanic: 3 virtues.
    Firebrand class mechanic: 15-24 additional skills.

    Elementalist class mechanic: 4 solo attunements.
    Weaver class mechanic: 4 solo attunements OR 16 mixed attunements + 4 dual skills.

    Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets
    Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets OR access to 3 merge skills.

    Yet Soulbeast loses half its class mechanic on a spec that's not even competitive in the current meta :joy:

  • hotte in space.2158hotte in space.2158 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:
    As for Tempest and Ele becoming "absolutely useless" in sPvP I honestly think that has less to do with how they worked and more to do with how overtuned Weaver has become

    Thats a wrong assumption. Tempest wouldnt be represented in current PvP even without weaver.

    The least access to stability of all classes
    Low mobility. Compared to ranger, warrior, thief, mesmer, engi its a lame duck
    Evades ? Not worth to mention
    Less healing than warrior (compared with equal amulets), except using a build with all heal skills/traits, but then it doesnt do anymore damage
    Blocks ? Just obsidian flesh (3sec with 50/40sec CD)
    Light armor class
    Sustain mechanics/abilities ? zero
    Hard to play (it needs a very good feeling for timing and it has to be played in an extremely foreseeing way, to be in the right attunements when fighting)
    Elite skill "rebound" is close to useless

    To say it simple : theres too much damage/CCs around for tempest and core ele. By nerfing obsidian flesh tempest gets sacrificed now just because devs found no other way to nerf weaver ???

    I once was legendary with my cheesy damage tempest, now I am just average and soon I will be nothing anymore :p HELP ! ! !

  • @bravan.3876 said:

    It is simple: If you want ppl to play less facetanky and less lame builds on a specific class, then you better do not kill these less lame and more skilled builds as a spin-off while nerfing op and braindead facetanky builds on that class (at least as long as you have other possible ways to nerf op builds without touching not op builds and in most cases you have other ways).

    BROUGHT TO THE POINT ! ! !

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

    A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

    You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

    His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

    But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

    You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

    Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

    I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

    Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.
    Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

    Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

    Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

    Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

    Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

    The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

    With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

    ??

    The tomes are literally infinitely better than core virtues.

    Doesn't matter. You lose something to gain something else.

    Weavers can still single attune.

    By single attuning twice or using a utility. They also have a global cooldown on attuning so it takes longer.

    Losing a single f5 skill is not a tradeoff.

    It's exactly what the tradeoffs are though?

    Just sounds like you are bogged down in effectiveness instead of what the trade offs, by Anets own words, are supposed to be.

    What it is is the tradeoff. How strong it is is balance.

    And Soulbeasts lose their pets to gain access to the merge skills. We literally trade our pets for 3 extra skills. That's a tradeoff, soulbeasts don't get access to both at the same time.

    "I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level."

    Guardian class mechanic: 3 virtues.
    Firebrand class mechanic: 15-24 additional skills.

    Elementalist class mechanic: 4 solo attunements.
    Weaver class mechanic: 4 solo attunements OR 16 mixed attunements + 4 dual skills.

    Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets
    Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets OR access to 3 merge skills.

    Yet Soulbeast loses half its class mechanic :joy:

    "Yet Soulbeast loses half its class mechanic :joy:"

    You're losing half your base mechanic to gain beast mode instead of just gaining beast mode and not losing anything...

    You're still on about balance and effectiveness not a tradeoff from the perspective that Anet want tradeoffs to be.

    You know what I'm just going to stop here. I get where you are coming from but you are missing what Anet deem as a tradeoff not the players.

    It really doesn't matter how much you say it has one already it's clear that it didn't since one is now being added. I get you're mad because you main the class and feel like it's just being nerfed for no reason but it's really clear as day as to what and why this is happening.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    And Soulbeasts lose their pets to gain access to the merge skills. We literally trade our pets for 3 extra skills. That's a tradeoff, soulbeasts don't get access to both at the same time.

    But gain all traits for the pets and stats boost (pet related skills start to affect you instead) and that also bring dead pets to life without penalty for swapping dead pet. Still retain all functionality of a core ranger. Like chrono with F5 before.
    You kinda have a point about holo/fb etc. What they gain is infinitely better compared to what they "have lost".
    Daredevil gave up some range on steal for an improved unblockable steal on lower cd but on top of that he also got 3 dodges on his choice (also previous MAJOR traits became merged into MINORS) and 1 extra evade. The benefits outweights its loss greatly.
    Chrono - on top of giving up on distortion got "dry" shatter removed (which is fundamental for any mesmer build as they deleted any possability to play anything but shatter based builds). On top of one trade off it got murdered with another "trade off" for nothing. Double trade off for questionable gain of 105s cd skill (that has counterplays and highly dependant on your current cooldowns and condition)
    Renegade has no trade offs and lets say lose one and gain 3. When we can expect it to get its trade off? Should have only 1 active legend ;)
    Spellbreaker - where is trade off when dagger burst is overloaded with effects - boon rip, unblockable, ok damage. GS F1 hit as much as lvl3. I'm the only one seeing it?

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

    A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

    You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

    His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

    But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

    You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

    Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

    I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

    Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.
    Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

    Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

    Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

    Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

    Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

    The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

    With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

    ??

    The tomes are literally infinitely better than core virtues.

    Doesn't matter. You lose something to gain something else.

    Weavers can still single attune.

    By single attuning twice or using a utility. They also have a global cooldown on attuning so it takes longer.

    Losing a single f5 skill is not a tradeoff.

    It's exactly what the tradeoffs are though?

    Just sounds like you are bogged down in effectiveness instead of what the trade offs, by Anets own words, are supposed to be.

    What it is is the tradeoff. How strong it is is balance.

    And Soulbeasts lose their pets to gain access to the merge skills. We literally trade our pets for 3 extra skills. That's a tradeoff, soulbeasts don't get access to both at the same time.

    "I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level."

    Guardian class mechanic: 3 virtues.
    Firebrand class mechanic: 15-24 additional skills.

    Elementalist class mechanic: 4 solo attunements.
    Weaver class mechanic: 4 solo attunements OR 16 mixed attunements + 4 dual skills.

    Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets
    Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets OR access to 3 merge skills.

    Yet Soulbeast loses half its class mechanic :joy:

    "Yet Soulbeast loses half its class mechanic :joy:"

    You're losing half your base mechanic to gain beast mode instead of just gaining beast mode and not losing anything...

    You're still on about balance and effectiveness not a tradeoff from the perspective that Anet want tradeoffs to be.

    You know what I'm just going to stop here. I get where you are coming from but you are missing what Anet deem as a tradeoff not the players.

    It really doesn't matter how much you say it has one already it's clear that it didn't since one is now being added. I get you're mad because you main the class and feel like it's just being nerfed for no reason but it's really clear as day as to what and why this is happening.

    Firebrands don't lose anything. Tomes still count as virtues in the game but they are several orders of magnitude stronger than what core guardian has.
    Weavers don't lose anything to gain access to their Dual Skills and mixed attunements.

    Soulbeasts are LOSING half our class mechanic to gain access to 3 skills and judging by the patch notes and the updated one, Anet completely overlooked the fact that the pet swap trait cooldowns don't match the merge timer.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    And Soulbeasts lose their pets to gain access to the merge skills. We literally trade our pets for 3 extra skills. That's a tradeoff, soulbeasts don't get access to both at the same time.

    But gain all traits for the pets and stats boost (pet related skills start to affect you instead) and that also bring dead pets to life without penalty for swapping dead pet. Still retain all functionality of a core ranger. Like chrono with F5 before.
    You kinda have a point about holo/fb etc. What they gain is infinitely better compared to what they "have lost".
    Daredevil gave up some range on steal for an improved unblockable steal on lower cd but on top of that he also got 3 dodges on his choice (also previous MAJOR traits became merged into MINORS) and 1 extra evade. The benefits outweights its loss greatly.
    Chrono - on top of giving up on distortion got "dry" shatter removed (which is fundamental for any mesmer build as they deleted any possability to play anything but shatter based builds). On top of one trade off it got murdered with another "trade off" for nothing. Double trade off for questionable gain of 105s cd skill (that has counterplays and highly dependant on your current cooldowns and condition)
    Renegade has no trade offs and lets say lose one and gain 3. When we can expect it to get its trade off? Should have only 1 active legend ;)
    Spellbreaker - where is trade off when dagger burst is overloaded with effects - boon rip, unblockable, ok damage. GS F1 hit as much as lvl3. I'm the only one seeing it?

    Yes exactly. Currently, Soulbeasts LOSE our pet to gain access to merge skills. It's already a tradeoff. It wouldn't be a tradeoff if we were able to use our pets and merge skills at the same time.

    Holosmiths lose what? A single minor F5 skill? That's literally nothing and instead they gain access to a ridiculously strong offensive kit.

    Firebrands lose what? Nothing. And they GAIN anywhere from 15-24 new skills that not only replace the exact functionality of the core Virtues, but are way stronger.

    Weavers lose what? Nothing. They GAIN dual skills and the ability to mix attunements.

    Mirages losing a dodge is stupid. They should have weaker shatter skills just like a Spellbreaker has weaker burst skills. Cap illusions at 2. Distortion on mesmer should prevent skill usage like ALL other invuln skills. Finally, remove their ability to dodge while hard cc'd and immobilized.

    Spellbreaker's Arcing Slice's damage should scale with adrenaline. Currently, only the fury duration does which is why the GS F1 hits just as hard in SPB as it does in Core Warrior.

    Rangers are also getting MASSIVE cooldown nerfs on greatsword, a weapon that already loses while trading trading damage against every single meta spec atm and we don't even have the staying power to back it up.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2020

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    And Soulbeasts lose their pets to gain access to the merge skills. We literally trade our pets for 3 extra skills. That's a tradeoff, soulbeasts don't get access to both at the same time.

    But gain all traits for the pets and stats boost (pet related skills start to affect you instead) and that also bring dead pets to life without penalty for swapping dead pet. Still retain all functionality of a core ranger. Like chrono with F5 before.
    You kinda have a point about holo/fb etc. What they gain is infinitely better compared to what they "have lost".
    Daredevil gave up some range on steal for an improved unblockable steal on lower cd but on top of that he also got 3 dodges on his choice (also previous MAJOR traits became merged into MINORS) and 1 extra evade. The benefits outweights its loss greatly.
    Chrono - on top of giving up on distortion got "dry" shatter removed (which is fundamental for any mesmer build as they deleted any possability to play anything but shatter based builds). On top of one trade off it got murdered with another "trade off" for nothing. Double trade off for questionable gain of 105s cd skill (that has counterplays and highly dependant on your current cooldowns and condition)
    Renegade has no trade offs and lets say lose one and gain 3. When we can expect it to get its trade off? Should have only 1 active legend ;)
    Spellbreaker - where is trade off when dagger burst is overloaded with effects - boon rip, unblockable, ok damage. GS F1 hit as much as lvl3. I'm the only one seeing it?

    Yes exactly. Currently, Soulbeasts LOSE our pet to gain access to merge skills. It's already a tradeoff. It wouldn't be a tradeoff if we were able to use our pets and merge skills at the same time.

    You are wrong here. You could play soulbeast the way as core ranger easly and what is wrong with not having "trade off". You gained additional button on top of fully functional core class to boost urself with stats and additional effects and skills, fire it all and leave it and play just as you did before. Thats an impoved version of core. Are you blind or something?

    Holosmiths lose what? A single minor F5 skill? That's literally nothing and instead they gain access to a ridiculously strong offensive kit.

    But they can use your own argument against you (you are completely wrong there tho). Look - "we lose our weapon skills for duration, we are melee, our forge is a "kit"! If it wouldnt be a kit, they would be swapping any time and wouldnt be able to overheat in their life even if they had the worst heat management on the planet. But thanks to their evade that cool the forge, its impossible to overheat if you remotely pay attention to it.

    Firebrands lose what? Nothing. And they GAIN anywhere from 15-24 new skills that not only replace the exact functionality of the core Virtues, but are way stronger.
    Weavers lose what? Nothing. They GAIN dual skills and the ability to mix attunements.

    Access to the offhand weapon? They have to cycle elements to get to their offhand weapon skills for an example. "Mom, I want to use earth4-5! No, baby, attune to earth and then another element! Or use UNRAVEL utility!"

    Mirages losing a dodge is stupid. They should have weaker shatter skills just like a Spellbreaker has weaker burst skills. Cap illusions at 2. Distortion on mesmer should prevent skill usage like ALL other invuln skills. Finally, remove their ability to dodge while hard cc'd and immobilized.

    Arguably, mirage has trade off - losing normal evade. Yes it does, but this evade is infinitely better than what it loses. But mirage traitline like chrono traitline, poor thought and both are horrible and boring. I'm about to cry when I see grandmaster trait on mirage "gives 66% movement speed on MC" (And its there just to fix flaws of MC and cover its drawback so its not THAT obvious) when I see daredevil minors or spellbreaker minors with free 225 power and 225 ferocity AND burst reset in one.
    Btw your proposal would take so much more than it offer. To contrary how daredevil losing some range but improved steal and massive benefits, better evade and MORE EVADES. You suggest to nerf alrdy meh shatters(most traits that could boost it are gone) ,remove 1 clone and on top of worse movement take away (something they should have made before all this dumb nerfs) evade in cc. Billion trade offs for nothing, just like chrono. I'd say - pick 1.

    Spellbreaker's Arcing Slice's damage should scale with adrenaline. Currently, only the fury duration does which is why the GS F1 hits just as hard in SPB as it does in Core Warrior.

    Yes. As I said, warrior just exploit this design failure of anet. Higher adrenaline level = stronger effect and damage. Perfect example eviscerate, killshot, bow burst.
    So tldr - you kinda have the point but you are biased towards your main.

  • Erzian.5218Erzian.5218 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    Imagine if reaper had gotten reapers shroud in addition to core shroud (not instead of) or if firebrand had base virtue + tomes (with the downside that you couldn’t use core virtues while you are using a tome). That is what merge is on soulbeast. It’s not a specialization trade off right now, it simply is an additional skill (aka. Pure upside) which has up- and downsides when you use it. The reason why core ranger sees play over soulbeast sometimes is because core ranger traitline passive bonuses are stronger and synergize better with each other than with soulbeast (but this is similarly true for other classes).

  • @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

    A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

    You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

    His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

    But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

    You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

    Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

    I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

    Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.
    Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

    Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

    Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

    Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

    Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

    The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

    With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

    ??

    The tomes are literally infinitely better than core virtues.

    Doesn't matter. You lose something to gain something else.

    Weavers can still single attune.

    By single attuning twice or using a utility. They also have a global cooldown on attuning so it takes longer.

    Losing a single f5 skill is not a tradeoff.

    It's exactly what the tradeoffs are though?

    Just sounds like you are bogged down in effectiveness instead of what the trade offs, by Anets own words, are supposed to be.

    What it is is the tradeoff. How strong it is is balance.

    And Soulbeasts lose their pets to gain access to the merge skills. We literally trade our pets for 3 extra skills. That's a tradeoff, soulbeasts don't get access to both at the same time.

    "I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level."

    Guardian class mechanic: 3 virtues.
    Firebrand class mechanic: 15-24 additional skills.

    Elementalist class mechanic: 4 solo attunements.
    Weaver class mechanic: 4 solo attunements OR 16 mixed attunements + 4 dual skills.

    Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets
    Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets OR access to 3 merge skills.

    Yet Soulbeast loses half its class mechanic :joy:

    "Yet Soulbeast loses half its class mechanic :joy:"

    You're losing half your base mechanic to gain beast mode instead of just gaining beast mode and not losing anything...

    You're still on about balance and effectiveness not a tradeoff from the perspective that Anet want tradeoffs to be.

    You know what I'm just going to stop here. I get where you are coming from but you are missing what Anet deem as a tradeoff not the players.

    It really doesn't matter how much you say it has one already it's clear that it didn't since one is now being added. I get you're mad because you main the class and feel like it's just being nerfed for no reason but it's really clear as day as to what and why this is happening.

    Firebrands don't lose anything. Tomes still count as virtues in the game but they are several orders of magnitude stronger than what core guardian has.
    Weavers don't lose anything to gain access to their Dual Skills and mixed attunements.

    Soulbeasts are LOSING half our class mechanic to gain access to 3 skills and judging by the patch notes and the updated one, Anet completely overlooked the fact that the pet swap trait cooldowns don't match the merge timer.

    Weavers lose the ability to switch attunements for like 4 seconds. Not much of a trade off when you consider how long core ele is in one attunement before they switch. If it were me I'd increase it to 6 seconds so that when combined with arcane traitline it sits at 5s, up from 3.5 seconds

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

    A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

    You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

    His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

    But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

    You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

    Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet. You would be right if Soulbeast could use merge skills while the normal pet f skills and the pet itself are still active too. All what is needed is too reduce the overall power lvl of the Soulbeast skill ensemble (that can be done by dmg nerfs, increasing cds on single skills and removing double and triple rewards from overloaded skills). There is no need to delete parts of the mechanic itself/ delete active gameplay options to balance Soulbeast with a SECOND trade off.

    Are u for real? U cant really think losing one pet ability for 3 better ones and improved stats when merged is a trade off lol it's a trade up not off, I think ur confusing the two. By ur and shadowpass views than fb losing its 3 core virtues for all its mantra skills is a trade off when actually it's a trade up same as gaming access to 6 different pet skills vs 2 and extra stats when merging, that is not a trade off but a extra mechanic that strait up giving u a extra option on top of core while still giving u the option to play the same as core if u wish. DD cant switch its steal to 1200 range and lose its unblockable if it wishes mid match. Want acreal trade off for soulbeast? Soulbeast can swap pet out of combat while merged but as a soulbeast u are permanently merged and cannot submerged gaining the extra stats and the 3 pet skills. That's a real trade off.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

    A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

    You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

    His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

    But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

    You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

    Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

    I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

    Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.
    Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

    Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

    Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

    Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

    Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

    The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

    With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

    ??

    The tomes are literally infinitely better than core virtues.

    Weavers can still single attune.

    Losing a single f5 skill is not a tradeoff.

    Point is regardless of what's more effective the way soulbeast is right now if fb were the same it would have the option to swap to its 3 core virtues during play, or DD would be able to swap between steal and swipe during play depending on the situation lol. Soulbeast never lose pet skills or any pet mechanic cuz u can simply un merge to get them That's the difference

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

    A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

    You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

    His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

    But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

    You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

    Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet. You would be right if Soulbeast could use merge skills while the normal pet f skills and the pet itself are still active too. All what is needed is too reduce the overall power lvl of the Soulbeast skill ensemble (that can be done by dmg nerfs, increasing cds on single skills and removing double and triple rewards from overloaded skills). There is no need to delete parts of the mechanic itself/ delete active gameplay options to balance Soulbeast with a SECOND trade off.

    Are u for real? U cant really think losing one pet ability for 3 better ones and improved stats when merged is a trade off lol it's a trade up not off, I think ur confusing the two. By ur and shadowpass views than fb losing its 3 core virtues for all its mantra skills is a trade off when actually it's a trade up same as gaming access to 6 different pet skills vs 2 and extra stats when merging, that is not a trade off but a extra mechanic that strait up giving u a extra option on top of core while still giving u the option to play the same as core if u wish. DD cant switch its steal to 1200 range and lose its unblockable if it wishes mid match. Want acreal trade off for soulbeast? Soulbeast can swap pet out of combat while merged but as a soulbeast u are permanently merged and cannot submerged gaining the extra stats and the 3 pet skills. That's a real trade off.

    Improved stats when merged can be removed it is not needed. Just like reviving pets with merging should be removed. But that is a different point and has nothing to do with deleting parts of the basic mechanic by trade offs. The merge skills are not rly better than what pets do completely passive. You try to argue that losing the pet while merged is not a big deal, that is simply wrong. Did you ever play a Soulbeast? It is clearly an inherent trade of to lose access to pet f skills and all passive pet skills during merge. The only upgrade by that is, that Soulbeast has overall more skills available can be chained (just like core Eles already have more buttons since game release than other classes). My point is that this more in buttons/ skills can be adjusted by normal nerfs (higher cds of individual skills, dmg reductions, deleting double and triple rewards from skills). It is not needed to straight up delete parts of the Soulbeats mechanic. All you need to do is to make sure that Soulbeast needs to press more buttons to have the same dmg/ power lvl than a core Ranger has with less buttons available. This way you higher mechanically complexity and skill ceiling (what is overall allowed to be a bit stronger than builds with lower skill ceiling because higher skill ceiling is also a trade off, just as losing all traits a 3. core traitline would add is also a trade off) without deleting active gameplay options and without deleting parts of the elite mechanic itself which are there for reasons (or do you think the creators of elite specs were just insaley incapable of balancing and had no class and game knowledge and no balance experiences? Most elites have well thought through inherent trade offs already during the new ones feel insanely artificial, lack in understanding of the underlying elite mechanic and make specs unnecessary clunky if not unplayable by contradicting their basic nature).

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

    A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

    You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

    His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

    But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

    You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

    Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet. You would be right if Soulbeast could use merge skills while the normal pet f skills and the pet itself are still active too. All what is needed is too reduce the overall power lvl of the Soulbeast skill ensemble (that can be done by dmg nerfs, increasing cds on single skills and removing double and triple rewards from overloaded skills). There is no need to delete parts of the mechanic itself/ delete active gameplay options to balance Soulbeast with a SECOND trade off.

    Are u for real? U cant really think losing one pet ability for 3 better ones and improved stats when merged is a trade off lol it's a trade up not off, I think ur confusing the two. By ur and shadowpass views than fb losing its 3 core virtues for all its mantra skills is a trade off when actually it's a trade up same as gaming access to 6 different pet skills vs 2 and extra stats when merging, that is not a trade off but a extra mechanic that strait up giving u a extra option on top of core while still giving u the option to play the same as core if u wish. DD cant switch its steal to 1200 range and lose its unblockable if it wishes mid match. Want acreal trade off for soulbeast? Soulbeast can swap pet out of combat while merged but as a soulbeast u are permanently merged and cannot submerged gaining the extra stats and the 3 pet skills. That's a real trade off.

    Improved stats when merged can be removed it is not needed. Just like reviving pets with merging should be removed. But that is a different point and has nothing to do with deleting parts of the basic mechanic by trade offs. The merge skills are not rly better than what pets do completely passive. You try to argue that losing the pet while merged is not a big deal, that is simply wrong. Did you ever play a Soulbeast? It is clearly an inherent trade of to lose access to pet f skills and all passive pet skills during merge. The only upgrade by that is, that Soulbeast has overall more skills available can be chained (just like Eles have more buttons since game release than other classes). My point is that this more in buttons/ skills can be adjusted by normal nerfs (higher cds of individual skills, dmg reductions, deleting double and triple rewards from skills). It is not needed to straight up delete parts of the Soulbeats mechanic. All you need to do is to make sure that Soulbeast needs to press more buttons to have the same dmg/ power lvl than a core Ranger has with less buttons available. This way you higher mechanically complexity and skill ceiling (what is overall allowed to be a bit stronger than builds with lower skill ceiling because higher skill ceiling is also a trade off, just as losing all traits a 3. core traitline would add is also a trade off) without deleting active gameplay options and without deleting parts of the elite mechanic itself which are there for reasons (or do you think the creators of elite specs were just insaley incapable of balancing and had no class and game knowledge and no balance experiences? Most elites have well thought through inherent trade offs already during the new ones feel insanely artificial, lack in understanding of the underlying elite mechanic and make specs unnecessary clunky if not unplayable by contradicting their basic nature).

    I mean it's pretty simple to understand. A soulbeast can play as a core having pet un merged and has access to passive and non passive pet skills same as a core ranger. With soulbeast u get the merge mechanic on top not instead of the core pet mechanic. That is not a trade off that's a gain of another mechanic on top of the existing one regardless of what one is better, u can basically chose in match whether to play with core mechanic or the added soulbeast mechanic. As I said fb cannot chose to use its 3 core virtues as a fb if it fits a situation better in a match on the fly, nor can a DD chose to drop a dodge and unblockable swipe for steal mid game if a longer range steal would be advantages at the time.
    Only having access to one pet at all times or being perma merged with all of its advantages and disadvantages compared to ranger would be a actual trade off.
    Not sure what u dont get about the trade of concept?

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

    A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

    You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

    His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

    But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

    You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

    Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

    I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

    Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.
    Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

    Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

    Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

    Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

    Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

    The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

    With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

    Soulbeast lose all pet skills while being merged. That is a directly to the elite pointed trade off. That Soulbeast still has more buttons compared to core just like FB btw (more skills that can be chained) by being able to switch between 2 different mechanics (it is a SWITCH not an on top addition) has to be adjusted by lowering the overall power lvl of the more button ensemble. That can be done by normal nerfs and not by deleting parts of the elite mechanic itself.

    To FB trade off:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Ok i would not rly have called that a trade off because that is just inherent logic of turning one button skill into a whole kit of skills (which then ofc should not all be instant and ofc should also have individual cds otherwise it would be even more powerful compared to core than it already is). But on the other side you are also right, adding these tome skills removes the core skill, all the power they had and the advantage that they were instant is gone.
    Still you have to agree, that the overall power lvl of tomes compared to core virtues is still insanely higher. With that logic other elites like Soulbeats and Mirage get ADDITIONAL trade off over the inherent ones (and inherent trade off from FB is kinda weak you have to admit). Don't get me wrong, i don't want FB to lose a tome or even lose 2 tomes or lose weapon swap as SECOND trade off. I think it is enough to balance out the overall higher power lvl of these more in buttons/skills included in the tomes by nerfing the skills individually in their individual cds and in their individual rewards, means just normal nerfs (higher cds, dmg reduction, deleting power creeped double and triple rewards from overloaded skills like MoT or tome skills) and not add a SECOND trade off treatment that will straight up delete parts of the FB mechanic. So that FB just as Soulbeast is forced to use more button for the same power lvl that core has with less buttons available.

    Holos didn't get f5 removed, they just straight up buffed core Engi right before HoT release by adding an f5 to core for the purpose of getting another skillslot they can put elite mechanics into. That is not a trade off for the elite that is simply a pre buff of core. Holo has one inherent trade off that is the head mechanic. The head mechanic adds skill ceiling by creating the need to care for the head penalty. It also by logic makes Holo unable to start casts in holomode and switch to a kit already (because Holoskills are linked to create head while kits are not) without interrupting the cast from the holomode skill (not to mention that core Engi has this lock out mechanic too, it is impossible to start a cast from a kit skill and switch to the wepoanskills without interrupting the kit skill cast). Holomode is literally a kit/ second weapon set hybrid which got his own activation button to not consume an utility slot (they could have placed it into the weapon swap button instead an extra f5 button for example and it would be exactly the same but for no reasons they decided to pre buff core with addign an f5 and starting the power creep before elite specs even got added to the game). That Holomode is another kit not consuming an utility slot or gives Engi a second weaponset (define it how you want, it doesn't matter) is straight up a buff and the only trade off it has and the ONLY trade off it NEEDS is the head penalty. Neither is the f5 replacement a trade off nor is a SECOND trade off aside from the inherent one of head needed to balance Holo.

    Weaver and Tempest have inherent trade offs just like Soulbeast and Mirage. None of these 4 specs need an additional trade off, in particular when they are so bad made that they contradict the elite mechanic itself and make it clunky or even unplayble. All overperfroming elite spec builds can be adjusted by normal nerfs directly pointing at what rly is the issue and not by deleting parts of the mechanic itself withotu even solving the problems( Mirage wil be even more passive then before not less).

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • PLS.4095PLS.4095 Member ✭✭✭

    Nice update but you forget to nerf damage downstate, it's actually a big problem : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97100/nice-patch-but-you-forgot-to-nerf-something-really-important#latest

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

    A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

    You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

    His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

    But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

    You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

    Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

    I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

    Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.
    Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

    Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

    Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

    Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

    Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

    The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

    With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

    ??

    The tomes are literally infinitely better than core virtues.

    Weavers can still single attune.

    Losing a single f5 skill is not a tradeoff.

    As guardian players, no tomes are not infinitely better than core virtues. They are better only with healing power and boon duration. This is why every single FB build runs healing. Honestly, if I could I would rather have VoR over ToR in any situation. Even with Sage FB, ToR is questionable. It only works well going full support. VoJ is also stronger than ToJ. You lose CC, but the passive damage is double. The only virtue that both FB and DH have it so much better is ToC. VoC is trash. It does, literally, nothing. Of course, the tomes lock your skills bar, where virtues are usable with weapons.

    There are two main reasons that FB is meta over core condi and support builds: mantras and axe. If I have access access to axe and mantras outside of FB, I would not even give it a remote consideration, outside of full support build. kitten the tomes. I can put that stats and runes into damage, instead of being bound to healing and boon duration.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    Holosmiths lose what? A single minor F5 skill? That's literally nothing and instead they gain access to a ridiculously strong offensive kit.

    Holo didn't lose f5, core Engi got just buffed right before HoT release to create another button to place elite mechanics into. The actual Holo trade of is the head mechanic. The one and only trade off Holo neads. Compareable to the inherent trade offs Soulbeasts and Mirages already have and for that also don't need a second trade off.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    Holosmiths lose what? A single minor F5 skill? That's literally nothing and instead they gain access to a ridiculously strong offensive kit.

    Holo didn't lose f5, core Engi got just buffed right before HoT release to create another button to place elite mechanics into. The actual Holo trade of is the head mechanic. The one and only trade off Holo neads. Compareable to the inherent trade offs Soulbeasts and Mirages already have and for that also don't need a second trade off.

    Lmao holo's heat mechanics as a trade off is a joke, for how easy it is to avoid overheating it may as well no exist.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    Holosmiths lose what? A single minor F5 skill? That's literally nothing and instead they gain access to a ridiculously strong offensive kit.

    Holo didn't lose f5, core Engi got just buffed right before HoT release to create another button to place elite mechanics into. The actual Holo trade of is the head mechanic. The one and only trade off Holo neads. Compareable to the inherent trade offs Soulbeasts and Mirages already have and for that also don't need a second trade off.

    Lmao holo's heat mechanics as a trade off is a joke, for how easy it is to avoid overheating it may as well no exist.

    That is a point of normal balancing. When head penalty drops in too late (so the player can camp in Holomode too long) or the head penalty is too weak (so the player doesn't need to care for it, doesn't need to fear it) then ofc Holo will be op and the inherent skill ceiling from this inherent well thought through trade off is gone. The solution is to fine adjust the head penalty to a lvl where it isn't too weak (so player can ignore it) but also not too strong ( that it would prevent timed and reactive uses of holoskills by forcing the player out of holomode too soon/fast). The solution can't be to delete Holoskills from the kit or to make Holomode to consume an utility slot and rly delete the f5 (not the pseudo deletion by pre buffing core, mean rly delete it just like Chrono only has 4 f skills) by adding a SECOND NOT NEEDED trade off. If you want that i am sure you never played Holo yourself.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    Holosmiths lose what? A single minor F5 skill? That's literally nothing and instead they gain access to a ridiculously strong offensive kit.

    Holo didn't lose f5, core Engi got just buffed right before HoT release to create another button to place elite mechanics into. The actual Holo trade of is the head mechanic. The one and only trade off Holo neads. Compareable to the inherent trade offs Soulbeasts and Mirages already have and for that also don't need a second trade off.

    Lmao holo's heat mechanics as a trade off is a joke, for how easy it is to avoid overheating it may as well no exist.

    That is a point of normal balancing. When head penalty drops in too late (so the player can camp in Holomode too long) or the head penalty is too weak (so the player doesn't need to care for it, doesn't need to fear it) then ofc Holo will be op and the inherent skill ceiling from this inherent well thought through trade off is gone. The solution is to fine adjust the head penalty to a lvl where it isn't too weak (so player can ignore it) but also not too strong ( that it would prevent timed and reactive uses of holoskills by forcing the player out of holomode too soon/fast). The solution can't be to delete Holoskills from the kit or to make Holomode to consume an utility slot and rly delete the f5 (not the pseudo deletion by pre buffing core, mean rly delete it just like Chrono only has 4 f skills) by adding a SECOND NOT NEEDED trade off. If you want that i am sure you never played Holo yourself.

    Yeah I agree. The heat mechanic is a sound idea it should just require more effort or attention to avoid overheating.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    Holosmiths lose what? A single minor F5 skill? That's literally nothing and instead they gain access to a ridiculously strong offensive kit.

    Holo didn't lose f5, core Engi got just buffed right before HoT release to create another button to place elite mechanics into. The actual Holo trade of is the head mechanic. The one and only trade off Holo neads. Compareable to the inherent trade offs Soulbeasts and Mirages already have and for that also don't need a second trade off.

    Lmao holo's heat mechanics as a trade off is a joke, for how easy it is to avoid overheating it may as well no exist.

    That is a point of normal balancing. When head penalty drops in too late (so the player can camp in Holomode too long) or the head penalty is too weak (so the player doesn't need to care for it, doesn't need to fear it) then ofc Holo will be op and the inherent skill ceiling from this inherent well thought through trade off is gone. The solution is to fine adjust the head penalty to a lvl where it isn't too weak (so player can ignore it) but also not too strong ( that it would prevent timed and reactive uses of holoskills by forcing the player out of holomode too soon/fast). The solution can't be to delete Holoskills from the kit or to make Holomode to consume an utility slot and rly delete the f5 (not the pseudo deletion by pre buffing core, mean rly delete it just like Chrono only has 4 f skills) by adding a SECOND NOT NEEDED trade off. If you want that i am sure you never played Holo yourself.

    The heat mechanic should just require more effort or attention to avoid overheating.

    That was what i said too or not?

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    Holosmiths lose what? A single minor F5 skill? That's literally nothing and instead they gain access to a ridiculously strong offensive kit.

    Holo didn't lose f5, core Engi got just buffed right before HoT release to create another button to place elite mechanics into. The actual Holo trade of is the head mechanic. The one and only trade off Holo neads. Compareable to the inherent trade offs Soulbeasts and Mirages already have and for that also don't need a second trade off.

    Lmao holo's heat mechanics as a trade off is a joke, for how easy it is to avoid overheating it may as well no exist.

    That is a point of normal balancing. When head penalty drops in too late (so the player can camp in Holomode too long) or the head penalty is too weak (so the player doesn't need to care for it, doesn't need to fear it) then ofc Holo will be op and the inherent skill ceiling from this inherent well thought through trade off is gone. The solution is to fine adjust the head penalty to a lvl where it isn't too weak (so player can ignore it) but also not too strong ( that it would prevent timed and reactive uses of holoskills by forcing the player out of holomode too soon/fast). The solution can't be to delete Holoskills from the kit or to make Holomode to consume an utility slot and rly delete the f5 (not the pseudo deletion by pre buffing core, mean rly delete it just like Chrono only has 4 f skills) by adding a SECOND NOT NEEDED trade off. If you want that i am sure you never played Holo yourself.

    The heat mechanic should just require more effort or attention to avoid overheating.

    That was what i said too or not?

    Yeah was agreeing with u. Fixed post above lol

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

    A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

    You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

    His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

    But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

    You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

    Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

    I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

    Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.
    Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

    Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

    Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

    Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

    Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

    The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

    With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

    Soulbeast lose all pet skills while being merged. That is a directly to the elite pointed trade off. That Soulbeast still has more buttons compared to core just like FB btw (more skills that can be chained) by being able to switch between 2 different mechanics (it is a SWITCH not an on top addition) has to be adjusted by lowering the overall power lvl of the more button ensemble. That can be done by normal nerfs and not by deleting parts of the elite mechanic itself.

    It's not about having more buttons and no part of the elite mechanic is being removed. It's part of all of core that is being removed to make room for the elite mechanic, like every other spec in the game.

    Why is it so hard to understand losing skills when merged is not s tradeoff when you have just gained the option to merge. At a mechanical level it's s pure gain and now it's not. For the last time :

    Core: 2 pets - core mechanic.
    Slb now: 2 pets and beat mode - pure gain since you still have two pets and a new mode regardless of if you lose your pet and it's skills during merge it's the fact nothing is lost to gain the new mode.
    Slb then: 1 pet and beast mode - something had been lost to gain beast mode. A trade off at a class mechanical level.

    It's really so easy to understand.

    I am going to give up though since it is clear now you don't really understand what Anet meant by tradeoffs at all.