Earth Traitline Suggestions — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Earth Traitline Suggestions

Right now the earth traitline is not very impactful when it comes to condition removal and synergizing with bleed builds. The goal of this discussion is to provide my feedback on how to bring earth in line with other traitlines.

Serrated Stones- trait is retired and will be replaced by Serrated Cripple.

Serrated cripple- Any time you apply cripple you also apply 1 stack of bleeding for 6s.

This change will allow more synergy to apply bleed stacks, particularly with Churning earth and Overload Earth. The problem with bleed builds is it takes too long to apply bleeds for it to feel impactful. It forces you to sit in earth longer than you want to, trying to build bleed through autos.

Strength of Stone- Immobilize will apply 5 bleed stacks for 8s. Internal CD increased to 10 seconds. This makes skills like signet of earth and magnetic grasp feel more impactful for stacking bleeds. It also makes aftershock and overload earth a stronger option for damage.

Earthen Blessing-removed endurance gain. Instead, any time you are affected by movement-impairing conditions gain 1s of resistance. This gives a better option for condition management so you dont have to rely on other traitlines for condition management.

Diamond Skin-Remove conditions when hit when struck below the health threshold. 50%

Current diamond skin relies too much on healing and limits build diversity. This new option gives condi cleanse when it's most needed, but also puts them in danger of being bursted down.

Signet of Earth- Passive now grants 8% damage reduction.

Feel free to provide feedback. I've tested various bleed builds and the underlying problem is bleeds dont stack fast enough and staying in earth atonement limits your impact in fights. Thank you for your time and I hope Anet considers these changes in future balance updates.

Comments

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    repost lag

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Right now the earth traitline is not very impactful when it comes to condition removal and synergizing with bleed builds. The goal of this discussion is to provide my feedback on how to bring earth in line with other traitlines.

    Serrated Stones- trait is retired and will be replaced by Serrated Cripple.

    Serrated cripple- Any time you apply cripple you also apply 1 stack of bleeding for 6s.

    This change will allow more synergy to apply bleed stacks, particularly with Churning earth and Overload Earth. The problem with bleed builds is it takes too long to apply bleeds for it to feel impactful. It forces you to sit in earth longer than you want to, trying to build bleed through autos.

    Strength of Stone- Immobilize will apply 5 bleed stacks for 8s. Internal CD increased to 10 seconds. This makes skills like signet of earth and magnetic grasp feel more impactful for stacking bleeds. It also makes aftershock and overload earth a stronger option for damage.

    >

    Found the Condi Tempest main.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • I mean I dont really play condi or tempest. It would definitely be the build to use for these changes though.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    I mean I dont really play condi or tempest. It would definitely be the build to use for these changes though.

    Considering that the most popular build which uses Earth Traitline is WET build (Water Earth Tempest), I kind of assumed this was a Tempest directed suggestion because Overload Earth fulfils all the conditions listed and could apply ridiculous amounts of bleeding if this change were to be applied.

    This alone will inflict more Bleeding stacks on enemies just by Overloading Earth and sitting next to them than landing Churning Earth, which is abit ludicrous.

    They need to buff Earth skills and the traitline as a whole, or else no one will ever use Earth as a main attunement enough to warrant it as a worthy pick over something like, Fire or Air for Condi or Power.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I mentioned in many threads and I'll say this again, I think that earth spec should utilize barriers a lot and give certain benefits on getting barrier as well as benefits while having barrier. I also agree with your suggestions to make more interactions with cripple, immob and bleeding applications.

    My idea of all specs is that they should have 1 offensive (damage/cc), 1 self defensive/supportive and 1 supportive/utility focused row of 3 traits in it (depending on what's the main focus of said spec). For earth that's condi damage - self defense - aoe defense. Earth's purpose in pvp is mainly defense since bleeding isnt that effective so most earth traits that focus on offense should be made in pve context. Ele has access to both bleeding and burning and burning is superior in every single situation already and there's certain skills (like glyph of power, primord stance) that benefit from current attunement so if your goal is condi damage you'd always choose burn anyway.

    That being said, I'd suggest something like this (full spec, top-down in order from wiki):

    • Stone flesh (aminor adept) - same (7% damage reduction from minor after patch).

    • Earth's embrace (major adept) - Same. Alternative: 1 or 2 of the effects you'll see down in my first version of Stone Heart rework.

    • Serrated cripple (suggested major adept) - Good trait (I'd assume that bleed duration stays). Addition : double bleed stacks on immobilize (moved from strength of stone).
    • Elemental shielding (major adept - improved) - Transmuting auras grants ~300 barrier in aoe in addition to previous effect.

    • Earthen blast (minor master - improved) - gain ~200 barrier when attuning to earth in addition to previous effects.

    • Strength of Stone (major master - reworked) - Gain 30-50 condi damage every time you receive barrier or impair someone's movement (~6 sec duration, up to ~200 condi damage). Improved condi duration against movement impaired enemies (10-15%).

    • Rock solid (major master - improved) - earthen blast has larger radius, gives aoe stability and applies barrier to allies.
    • Earthen blessing (suggested major master) seems a bit too strong if it both reduces the duration of such condies as well as makes them useless for 1 second. I think the better way is to rework it in completely new trait which removes impairing condies when you get barrier (0-3 sec icd).

    • Geomancer's training (minor GM - reworked) - Receive less damage and condi damage while under effect of barrier. (scrapper gets 15% better barrier + 20% less condi damage, so I guess that 12% reduction to both is fair).

    • Diamond skin (major GM - removed). I dont think that earth spec needs cleanses, there's already 2 specs that do it pretty well. We dont need every spec to focus on cleansing. I think earth spec should focus on reducing damage taken, not completely negating it. Earth also lacks a supportive GM trait so this is a perfect way to add one (random idea) : every time you grant yourself barrier you get a stack of certain buff (8 sec duration, refreshes with barrier application). At ~10 stacks you give magnetic aura, 2 stability and 4 sec protection to allies nearby (~20 cooldown maybe).

    • Written in Stone (major GM) - same.
    • Stone heart (major GM). I'm not a big fan of "camp X attunement to gain an effect and become completely useless since you rely on using 20 skills, not 5" traits. I had several ideas about this trait :
    1. All incoming heals are converted to barrier (at max barrier you get healed instead). Increased maximum barrier pool to 75% of health pool from 50%. Barriers you receive last 20-40% (1-2 sec) longer. Last bonus can be something like this : regenerate ~200 health each second while under effect of barrier OR new applications of barrier refresh the duration of old barrier OR when your barrier runs out you regenerate 20-30% of its remaining value over 2 seconds OR a mix of some of these, but with lower values.
      There's also an option to take this to a next level (some of the bonuses might need to be split among other traits though) and make barrier your main "pool" while health protects it. The concept is to take damage directly to your health while your barrier is above 30% of your max health (so you protect your big chunk of barrier because you get benefits from it and lose health on incoming damage instead). This effect stops when you drop below 20% health for example. It has amazing synergy with barrier refreshing duration of old applications as well as health regen options.
    2. Double the effect of geomancer's training. Gain geo training damage reduction while attuned to earth (so either with barrier or in earth spec).
    3. Geo training is a lingering buff for 4 sec which applies when swapping to earth (think soothing mist) that reduces direct and condi damage by 15-20%.

    Some earth skills can also receive barrier application : armor of earth (~1k), staff 5 and dagger 4 (200 per enemy hit), sword 3 and trident 3 (300-400 on cast), warhorn 4 (200 in aoe).

    Scepter 2, signet and conjured shield : damage reduction instead of toughness.

    Dagger 5 (churning earth) - reworked into wash the pain away type of skill where all waves have full aoe radius: 1st wave - low damage and bleeding; 2nd wave - a bit higher damage, cripple and bigger bleeding; 3rd wave - higher damage, cripple, immobilize and even more bleeding. Compared to current version it should have about 20-30% lower direct damage and that much higher bleeding damage in total.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • @Yasai.3549 said:

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    I mean I dont really play condi or tempest. It would definitely be the build to use for these changes though.

    Considering that the most popular build which uses Earth Traitline is WET build (Water Earth Tempest), I kind of assumed this was a Tempest directed suggestion because Overload Earth fulfils all the conditions listed and could apply ridiculous amounts of bleeding if this change were to be applied.

    This alone will inflict more Bleeding stacks on enemies just by Overloading Earth and sitting next to them than landing Churning Earth, which is abit ludicrous.

    They need to buff Earth skills and the traitline as a whole, or else no one will ever use Earth as a main attunement enough to warrant it as a worthy pick over something like, Fire or Air for Condi or Power.

    Yeah I could see it maybe providing too many bleeds at once. It would stack about 15 + bleeds if traited. Which would tick for around 1.6k a second at 15 stacks for 6-8 seconds if you had 1500 condition damage. Comparatively at the same condition damage, 1 burn stack does a little over 400 per second. Assuming you gave someone 5 burns for a total of 4s you are looking at 2k per second for a total of 8k damage. Comparatively not much stronger, but when paired with burn could be over the top damage wise.

  • @steki.1478 said:
    I mentioned in many threads and I'll say this again, I think that earth spec should utilize barriers a lot and give certain benefits on getting barrier as well as benefits while having barrier. I also agree with your suggestions to make more interactions with cripple, immob and bleeding applications.

    My idea of all specs is that they should have 1 offensive (damage/cc), 1 self defensive/supportive and 1 supportive/utility focused row of 3 traits in it (depending on what's the main focus of said spec). For earth that's condi damage - self defense - aoe defense. Earth's purpose in pvp is mainly defense since bleeding isnt that effective so most earth traits that focus on offense should be made in pve context. Ele has access to both bleeding and burning and burning is superior in every single situation already and there's certain skills (like glyph of power, primord stance) that benefit from current attunement so if your goal is condi damage you'd always choose burn anyway.

    That being said, I'd suggest something like this (full spec, top-down in order from wiki):

    • Stone flesh (aminor adept) - same (7% damage reduction from minor after patch).

    • Earth's embrace (major adept) - Same. Alternative: 1 or 2 of the effects you'll see down in my first version of Stone Heart rework.

    • Serrated cripple (suggested major adept) - Good trait (I'd assume that bleed duration stays). Addition : double bleed stacks on immobilize (moved from strength of stone).
    • Elemental shielding (major adept - improved) - Transmuting auras grants ~300 barrier in aoe in addition to previous effect.

    • Earthen blast (minor master - improved) - gain ~200 barrier when attuning to earth in addition to previous effects.

    • Strength of Stone (major master - reworked) - Gain 30-50 condi damage every time you receive barrier or impair someone's movement (~6 sec duration, up to ~200 condi damage). Improved condi duration against movement impaired enemies (10-15%).

    • Rock solid (major master - improved) - earthen blast has larger radius, gives aoe stability and applies barrier to allies.
    • Earthen blessing (suggested major master) seems a bit too strong if it both reduces the duration of such condies as well as makes them useless for 1 second. I think the better way is to rework it in completely new trait which removes impairing condies when you get barrier (0-3 sec icd).

    • Geomancer's training (minor GM - reworked) - Receive less damage and condi damage while under effect of barrier. (scrapper gets 15% better barrier + 20% less condi damage, so I guess that 12% reduction to both is fair).

    • Diamond skin (major GM - removed). I dont think that earth spec needs cleanses, there's already 2 specs that do it pretty well. We dont need every spec to focus on cleansing. I think earth spec should focus on reducing damage taken, not completely negating it. Earth also lacks a supportive GM trait so this is a perfect way to add one (random idea) : every time you grant yourself barrier you get a stack of certain buff (8 sec duration, refreshes with barrier application). At ~10 stacks you give magnetic aura, 2 stability and 4 sec protection to allies nearby (~20 cooldown maybe).

    • Written in Stone (major GM) - same.
    • Stone heart (major GM). I'm not a big fan of "camp X attunement to gain an effect and become completely useless since you rely on using 20 skills, not 5" traits. I had several ideas about this trait :
    1. All incoming heals are converted to barrier (at max barrier you get healed instead). Increased maximum barrier pool to 75% of health pool from 50%. Barriers you receive last 20-40% (1-2 sec) longer. Last bonus can be something like this : regenerate ~200 health each second while under effect of barrier OR new applications of barrier refresh the duration of old barrier OR when your barrier runs out you regenerate 20-30% of its remaining value over 2 seconds OR a mix of some of these, but with lower values.
      There's also an option to take this to a next level (some of the bonuses might need to be split among other traits though) and make barrier your main "pool" while health protects it. The concept is to take damage directly to your health while your barrier is above 30% of your max health (so you protect your big chunk of barrier because you get benefits from it and lose health on incoming damage instead). This effect stops when you drop below 20% health for example. It has amazing synergy with barrier refreshing duration of old applications as well as health regen options.
    2. Double the effect of geomancer's training. Gain geo training damage reduction while attuned to earth (so either with barrier or in earth spec).
    3. Geo training is a lingering buff for 4 sec which applies when swapping to earth (think soothing mist) that reduces direct and condi damage by 15-20%.

    Some earth skills can also receive barrier application : armor of earth (~1k), staff 5 and dagger 4 (200 per enemy hit), sword 3 and trident 3 (300-400 on cast), warhorn 4 (200 in aoe).

    Scepter 2, signet and conjured shield : damage reduction instead of toughness.

    Dagger 5 (churning earth) - reworked into wash the pain away type of skill where all waves have full aoe radius: 1st wave - low damage and bleeding; 2nd wave - a bit higher damage, cripple and bigger bleeding; 3rd wave - higher damage, cripple, immobilize and even more bleeding. Compared to current version it should have about 20-30% lower direct damage and that much higher bleeding damage in total.

    Good ideas I think it would make barrier a little too strong with that gm. A better suggestion is to copy rune of sanctuary and have 20% of incoming heals becomes a barrier.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    I mentioned in many threads and I'll say this again, I think that earth spec should utilize barriers a lot and give certain benefits on getting barrier as well as benefits while having barrier. I also agree with your suggestions to make more interactions with cripple, immob and bleeding applications.

    My idea of all specs is that they should have 1 offensive (damage/cc), 1 self defensive/supportive and 1 supportive/utility focused row of 3 traits in it (depending on what's the main focus of said spec). For earth that's condi damage - self defense - aoe defense. Earth's purpose in pvp is mainly defense since bleeding isnt that effective so most earth traits that focus on offense should be made in pve context. Ele has access to both bleeding and burning and burning is superior in every single situation already and there's certain skills (like glyph of power, primord stance) that benefit from current attunement so if your goal is condi damage you'd always choose burn anyway.

    That being said, I'd suggest something like this (full spec, top-down in order from wiki):

    • Stone flesh (aminor adept) - same (7% damage reduction from minor after patch).

    • Earth's embrace (major adept) - Same. Alternative: 1 or 2 of the effects you'll see down in my first version of Stone Heart rework.

    • Serrated cripple (suggested major adept) - Good trait (I'd assume that bleed duration stays). Addition : double bleed stacks on immobilize (moved from strength of stone).
    • Elemental shielding (major adept - improved) - Transmuting auras grants ~300 barrier in aoe in addition to previous effect.

    • Earthen blast (minor master - improved) - gain ~200 barrier when attuning to earth in addition to previous effects.

    • Strength of Stone (major master - reworked) - Gain 30-50 condi damage every time you receive barrier or impair someone's movement (~6 sec duration, up to ~200 condi damage). Improved condi duration against movement impaired enemies (10-15%).

    • Rock solid (major master - improved) - earthen blast has larger radius, gives aoe stability and applies barrier to allies.
    • Earthen blessing (suggested major master) seems a bit too strong if it both reduces the duration of such condies as well as makes them useless for 1 second. I think the better way is to rework it in completely new trait which removes impairing condies when you get barrier (0-3 sec icd).

    • Geomancer's training (minor GM - reworked) - Receive less damage and condi damage while under effect of barrier. (scrapper gets 15% better barrier + 20% less condi damage, so I guess that 12% reduction to both is fair).

    • Diamond skin (major GM - removed). I dont think that earth spec needs cleanses, there's already 2 specs that do it pretty well. We dont need every spec to focus on cleansing. I think earth spec should focus on reducing damage taken, not completely negating it. Earth also lacks a supportive GM trait so this is a perfect way to add one (random idea) : every time you grant yourself barrier you get a stack of certain buff (8 sec duration, refreshes with barrier application). At ~10 stacks you give magnetic aura, 2 stability and 4 sec protection to allies nearby (~20 cooldown maybe).

    • Written in Stone (major GM) - same.
    • Stone heart (major GM). I'm not a big fan of "camp X attunement to gain an effect and become completely useless since you rely on using 20 skills, not 5" traits. I had several ideas about this trait :
    1. All incoming heals are converted to barrier (at max barrier you get healed instead). Increased maximum barrier pool to 75% of health pool from 50%. Barriers you receive last 20-40% (1-2 sec) longer. Last bonus can be something like this : regenerate ~200 health each second while under effect of barrier OR new applications of barrier refresh the duration of old barrier OR when your barrier runs out you regenerate 20-30% of its remaining value over 2 seconds OR a mix of some of these, but with lower values.
      There's also an option to take this to a next level (some of the bonuses might need to be split among other traits though) and make barrier your main "pool" while health protects it. The concept is to take damage directly to your health while your barrier is above 30% of your max health (so you protect your big chunk of barrier because you get benefits from it and lose health on incoming damage instead). This effect stops when you drop below 20% health for example. It has amazing synergy with barrier refreshing duration of old applications as well as health regen options.
    2. Double the effect of geomancer's training. Gain geo training damage reduction while attuned to earth (so either with barrier or in earth spec).
    3. Geo training is a lingering buff for 4 sec which applies when swapping to earth (think soothing mist) that reduces direct and condi damage by 15-20%.

    Some earth skills can also receive barrier application : armor of earth (~1k), staff 5 and dagger 4 (200 per enemy hit), sword 3 and trident 3 (300-400 on cast), warhorn 4 (200 in aoe).

    Scepter 2, signet and conjured shield : damage reduction instead of toughness.

    Dagger 5 (churning earth) - reworked into wash the pain away type of skill where all waves have full aoe radius: 1st wave - low damage and bleeding; 2nd wave - a bit higher damage, cripple and bigger bleeding; 3rd wave - higher damage, cripple, immobilize and even more bleeding. Compared to current version it should have about 20-30% lower direct damage and that much higher bleeding damage in total.

    Good ideas I think it would make barrier a little too strong with that gm. A better suggestion is to copy rune of sanctuary and have 20% of incoming heals becomes a barrier.

    All depends on how many of these effect are present. The trait itself is just bigger barrier potential, but it would still be hard to achieve its full potential without external heals (or water spec, which practically nullifies your damage output). Certain values would need to be lower in pvp modes, especially spvp because perma sustain builds arent fun to play against.

    I just think that it would be a fun mechanic to have health protecting barrier instead of barrier protecting health pool. Barrier still has limited duration so you'd need to manage its duration as well. There can also be an exception where all heals are converted to barrier, but the healing skill (even passive from signet) will always heal you. Just throwing random ideas to make earth actually focused on defense even when you're not camping earth attunement.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Earth is such a crippling trait Line...

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Maybe earth line should just be about self def and cc. Such as making Rock Solid a self stab when you swap to earth and not some aoe support stab that is worthless. But if they do go that path they need to add more roots and hard cc effects to the earth line.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • I would like stone heart to be a group buff. 600 radius 3 sec duration 10 sec cd. would be awesome lol. imo classes need more unique buffs/ debuffs.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • @Jski.6180 said:
    Maybe earth line should just be about self def and cc. Such as making Rock Solid a self stab when you swap to earth and not some aoe support stab that is worthless. But if they do go that path they need to add more roots and hard cc effects to the earth line.

    I like the bleed build option for the variety of builds it could provide. I do agree that the traits feel lackluster in terms of defence. A 2s stability is hardly worth it. Now if they moved it to grandmaster slot and had it grant 3 stacks for 4 seconds with a 300 radius it would 100% be used in wvw. You could then move diamond skin down and keep it as is because the skill isnt good.

    Earthen blessing can replace the useless earth's embrace and remove the endurance gain from it.

    The new trait could be gain 500 barrier every time you gain protection.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Maybe earth line should just be about self def and cc. Such as making Rock Solid a self stab when you swap to earth and not some aoe support stab that is worthless. But if they do go that path they need to add more roots and hard cc effects to the earth line.

    I like the bleed build option for the variety of builds it could provide. I do agree that the traits feel lackluster in terms of defence. A 2s stability is hardly worth it. Now if they moved it to grandmaster slot and had it grant 3 stacks for 4 seconds with a 300 radius it would 100% be used in wvw. You could then move diamond skin down and keep it as is because the skill isnt good.

    Earthen blessing can replace the useless earth's embrace and remove the endurance gain from it.

    The new trait could be gain 500 barrier every time you gain protection.

    Bleeding dose not realty fit on earth its a def line that happens to have bleeding on its skills. If you bleed something and do more physical dmg to that target and not bleed dmg and or condi dmg is it a realty condi aimed line? I think air line and air skills should have the condi effect bleed or other and lose its cc out put. Its the earth line that should have the cc effects as its the "physical" tank line and not a "support" tank line. Earth line should be more looked at as a war line where your pulling aggro base off of skill taunt or strong cc skills both hard knock down and roots/cripple.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • @Jski.6180 said:

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Maybe earth line should just be about self def and cc. Such as making Rock Solid a self stab when you swap to earth and not some aoe support stab that is worthless. But if they do go that path they need to add more roots and hard cc effects to the earth line.

    I like the bleed build option for the variety of builds it could provide. I do agree that the traits feel lackluster in terms of defence. A 2s stability is hardly worth it. Now if they moved it to grandmaster slot and had it grant 3 stacks for 4 seconds with a 300 radius it would 100% be used in wvw. You could then move diamond skin down and keep it as is because the skill isnt good.

    Earthen blessing can replace the useless earth's embrace and remove the endurance gain from it.

    The new trait could be gain 500 barrier every time you gain protection.

    Bleeding dose not realty fit on earth its a def line that happens to have bleeding on its skills. If you bleed something and do more physical dmg to that target and not bleed dmg and or condi dmg is it a realty condi aimed line? I think air line and air skills should have the condi effect bleed or other and lose its cc out put. Its the earth line that should have the cc effects as its the "physical" tank line and not a "support" tank line. Earth line should be more looked at as a war line where your pulling aggro base off of skill taunt or strong cc skills both hard knock down and roots/cripple.

    I disagree, but really it's just both of our personal preferences on the direction we want earth to go. My thing is it has room to do both if the traits were actually good.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Maybe earth line should just be about self def and cc. Such as making Rock Solid a self stab when you swap to earth and not some aoe support stab that is worthless. But if they do go that path they need to add more roots and hard cc effects to the earth line.

    I like the bleed build option for the variety of builds it could provide. I do agree that the traits feel lackluster in terms of defence. A 2s stability is hardly worth it. Now if they moved it to grandmaster slot and had it grant 3 stacks for 4 seconds with a 300 radius it would 100% be used in wvw. You could then move diamond skin down and keep it as is because the skill isnt good.

    Earthen blessing can replace the useless earth's embrace and remove the endurance gain from it.

    The new trait could be gain 500 barrier every time you gain protection.

    Bleeding dose not realty fit on earth its a def line that happens to have bleeding on its skills. If you bleed something and do more physical dmg to that target and not bleed dmg and or condi dmg is it a realty condi aimed line? I think air line and air skills should have the condi effect bleed or other and lose its cc out put. Its the earth line that should have the cc effects as its the "physical" tank line and not a "support" tank line. Earth line should be more looked at as a war line where your pulling aggro base off of skill taunt or strong cc skills both hard knock down and roots/cripple.

    I disagree, but really it's just both of our personal preferences on the direction we want earth to go. My thing is it has room to do both if the traits were actually good.

    I understand your point of view i just think its just an artifact of the old trait system where you got armor and condi dmg from the earth line making it a true condi / def line. That system is no longer there and there is very little in the earth line to make it a condi dmg line. I think scraping the bleeding on the earth line and earth skills would add room for a true cc / def or "true" tank build. At the same time giving air line a condi dmg would put it more in line of a dmg set up much like fire line. Water line would be the mages support, fire would be the slow dps high burn condi but low stack, the air line would be the fast hitting high crit low condi dmg but high stacks, and earth the true "melee" line both high tankly and means of keeping ppl in melee with strong cc.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Bleeding dose not realty fit on earth its a def line that happens to have bleeding on its skills. If you bleed something and do more physical dmg to that target and not bleed dmg and or condi dmg is it a realty condi aimed line? I think air line and air skills should have the condi effect bleed or other and lose its cc out put. Its the earth line that should have the cc effects as its the "physical" tank line and not a "support" tank line. Earth line should be more looked at as a war line where your pulling aggro base off of skill taunt or strong cc skills both hard knock down and roots/cripple.

    Earth really needs a rework, hence the topic. however, I do believe that it should have a condition damage aspect to it. Other than bleeding, burning is the only other damaging condition that elementalist outputs, and that is already handled by the fire trait line. If it were up to me, I'd make fire the condition / offensive line, whereas earth would be condition / defense. of course, the condition oriented traits should not be minor traits to keep the viability for non-condition focused builds.

    What elementalist needs in general is for traits to not be so locked into specific attunments. If fire / earth traits allowed for better condition damage output while in other elements, that would improve the gameplay (the current direction seems already this way: give a certain boost while in all elements, with double the bonus when on the aligned one).

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Skotlex.7580 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Bleeding dose not realty fit on earth its a def line that happens to have bleeding on its skills. If you bleed something and do more physical dmg to that target and not bleed dmg and or condi dmg is it a realty condi aimed line? I think air line and air skills should have the condi effect bleed or other and lose its cc out put. Its the earth line that should have the cc effects as its the "physical" tank line and not a "support" tank line. Earth line should be more looked at as a war line where your pulling aggro base off of skill taunt or strong cc skills both hard knock down and roots/cripple.

    Earth really needs a rework, hence the topic. however, I do believe that it should have a condition damage aspect to it. Other than bleeding, burning is the only other damaging condition that elementalist outputs, and that is already handled by the fire trait line. If it were up to me, I'd make fire the condition / offensive line, whereas earth would be condition / defense. of course, the condition oriented traits should not be minor traits to keep the viability for non-condition focused builds.

    What elementalist needs in general is for traits to not be so locked into specific attunments. If fire / earth traits allowed for better condition damage output while in other elements, that would improve the gameplay (the current direction seems already this way: give a certain boost while in all elements, with double the bonus when on the aligned one).

    Right now earth line is not looked as as a dmg line and it realy lacks any "condi" dmg on that line looking at the GM alone makes it blut that it was not made with the ideal of condi. You can make the argument that arcain line is more of a condi dmg line then earth has ever been. Its not good for balancing in the long run to have a line cover both a def and dmg aimed at the same time. Your going to have it become an op line or an up line with no real balances between the give and takes of the updates. Its far better to make dmg line have the condi dmg.

    Added note torment fits ele as the first version of torment was frost bit from the Ice elemental fractal. Bleed has become a place holder condi as its no longer the only stacking condi dmg in the game.

    Yes earth line needs a massive update but condi dmg is not the right path for it your far better off asking for more hard / soft cc effects from the line.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Skotlex.7580 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Bleeding dose not realty fit on earth its a def line that happens to have bleeding on its skills. If you bleed something and do more physical dmg to that target and not bleed dmg and or condi dmg is it a realty condi aimed line? I think air line and air skills should have the condi effect bleed or other and lose its cc out put. Its the earth line that should have the cc effects as its the "physical" tank line and not a "support" tank line. Earth line should be more looked at as a war line where your pulling aggro base off of skill taunt or strong cc skills both hard knock down and roots/cripple.

    Earth really needs a rework, hence the topic. however, I do believe that it should have a condition damage aspect to it. Other than bleeding, burning is the only other damaging condition that elementalist outputs, and that is already handled by the fire trait line. If it were up to me, I'd make fire the condition / offensive line, whereas earth would be condition / defense. of course, the condition oriented traits should not be minor traits to keep the viability for non-condition focused builds.

    What elementalist needs in general is for traits to not be so locked into specific attunments. If fire / earth traits allowed for better condition damage output while in other elements, that would improve the gameplay (the current direction seems already this way: give a certain boost while in all elements, with double the bonus when on the aligned one).

    Right now earth line is not looked as as a dmg line and it realy lacks any "condi" dmg on that line looking at the GM alone makes it blut that it was not made with the ideal of condi. You can make the argument that arcain line is more of a condi dmg line then earth has ever been. Its not good for balancing in the long run to have a line cover both a def and dmg aimed at the same time. Your going to have it become an op line or an up line with no real balances between the give and takes of the updates. Its far better to make dmg line have the condi dmg.

    Added note torment fits ele as the first version of torment was frost bit from the Ice elemental fractal. Bleed has become a place holder condi as its no longer the only stacking condi dmg in the game.

    Yes earth line needs a massive update but condi dmg is not the right path for it your far better off asking for more hard / soft cc effects from the line.

    Earth is pretty mandatory in every condi ele build nowadays tbh so idk how it's "not looked as dmg line". Arcane does nothing after nerfs to arcane power. It's always been a condi (bleed as offense)/defense hybrid, no need to reinvent the wheel.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Skotlex.7580 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Bleeding dose not realty fit on earth its a def line that happens to have bleeding on its skills. If you bleed something and do more physical dmg to that target and not bleed dmg and or condi dmg is it a realty condi aimed line? I think air line and air skills should have the condi effect bleed or other and lose its cc out put. Its the earth line that should have the cc effects as its the "physical" tank line and not a "support" tank line. Earth line should be more looked at as a war line where your pulling aggro base off of skill taunt or strong cc skills both hard knock down and roots/cripple.

    Earth really needs a rework, hence the topic. however, I do believe that it should have a condition damage aspect to it. Other than bleeding, burning is the only other damaging condition that elementalist outputs, and that is already handled by the fire trait line. If it were up to me, I'd make fire the condition / offensive line, whereas earth would be condition / defense. of course, the condition oriented traits should not be minor traits to keep the viability for non-condition focused builds.

    What elementalist needs in general is for traits to not be so locked into specific attunments. If fire / earth traits allowed for better condition damage output while in other elements, that would improve the gameplay (the current direction seems already this way: give a certain boost while in all elements, with double the bonus when on the aligned one).

    Right now earth line is not looked as as a dmg line and it realy lacks any "condi" dmg on that line looking at the GM alone makes it blut that it was not made with the ideal of condi. You can make the argument that arcain line is more of a condi dmg line then earth has ever been. Its not good for balancing in the long run to have a line cover both a def and dmg aimed at the same time. Your going to have it become an op line or an up line with no real balances between the give and takes of the updates. Its far better to make dmg line have the condi dmg.

    Added note torment fits ele as the first version of torment was frost bit from the Ice elemental fractal. Bleed has become a place holder condi as its no longer the only stacking condi dmg in the game.

    Yes earth line needs a massive update but condi dmg is not the right path for it your far better off asking for more hard / soft cc effects from the line.

    Earth is pretty mandatory in every condi ele build nowadays tbh so idk how it's "not looked as dmg line". Arcane does nothing after nerfs to arcane power. It's always been a condi (bleed as offense)/defense hybrid, no need to reinvent the wheel.

    What happens then is it can never be a real tank line as ele as a class is balanced as a gen. So it will always do less then other classes and get less def effect then other classes. Earth atument and earth skills are mandatory in condi ele builds as for the line it self it happens to just be that there is nothing else for ele to help its condis. If you added in condi dmg on air line working with crits and air skills started to apply condis you would see condi builds and over all dmg build for ele get a lot more use then the game play we have now.

    Air skills would apply condis like bleed faster then earth skills and becuse air line it self is partly about criting the condi ele can make a real game play of condi on crit. Nothing about earth line lets the ele play to that.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Skotlex.7580 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Bleeding dose not realty fit on earth its a def line that happens to have bleeding on its skills. If you bleed something and do more physical dmg to that target and not bleed dmg and or condi dmg is it a realty condi aimed line? I think air line and air skills should have the condi effect bleed or other and lose its cc out put. Its the earth line that should have the cc effects as its the "physical" tank line and not a "support" tank line. Earth line should be more looked at as a war line where your pulling aggro base off of skill taunt or strong cc skills both hard knock down and roots/cripple.

    Earth really needs a rework, hence the topic. however, I do believe that it should have a condition damage aspect to it. Other than bleeding, burning is the only other damaging condition that elementalist outputs, and that is already handled by the fire trait line. If it were up to me, I'd make fire the condition / offensive line, whereas earth would be condition / defense. of course, the condition oriented traits should not be minor traits to keep the viability for non-condition focused builds.

    What elementalist needs in general is for traits to not be so locked into specific attunments. If fire / earth traits allowed for better condition damage output while in other elements, that would improve the gameplay (the current direction seems already this way: give a certain boost while in all elements, with double the bonus when on the aligned one).

    Right now earth line is not looked as as a dmg line and it realy lacks any "condi" dmg on that line looking at the GM alone makes it blut that it was not made with the ideal of condi. You can make the argument that arcain line is more of a condi dmg line then earth has ever been. Its not good for balancing in the long run to have a line cover both a def and dmg aimed at the same time. Your going to have it become an op line or an up line with no real balances between the give and takes of the updates. Its far better to make dmg line have the condi dmg.

    Added note torment fits ele as the first version of torment was frost bit from the Ice elemental fractal. Bleed has become a place holder condi as its no longer the only stacking condi dmg in the game.

    Yes earth line needs a massive update but condi dmg is not the right path for it your far better off asking for more hard / soft cc effects from the line.

    Earth is pretty mandatory in every condi ele build nowadays tbh so idk how it's "not looked as dmg line". Arcane does nothing after nerfs to arcane power. It's always been a condi (bleed as offense)/defense hybrid, no need to reinvent the wheel.

    What happens then is it can never be a real tank line as ele as a class is balanced as a gen. So it will always do less then other classes and get less def effect then other classes. Earth atument and earth skills are mandatory in condi ele builds as for the line it self it happens to just be that there is nothing else for ele to help its condis. If you added in condi dmg on air line working with crits and air skills started to apply condis you would see condi builds and over all dmg build for ele get a lot more use then the game play we have now.

    Air skills would apply condis like bleed faster then earth skills and becuse air line it self is partly about criting the condi ele can make a real game play of condi on crit. Nothing about earth line lets the ele play to that.

    Air has nothing to do with condies though. It's main focus are mobility, crit strikes and burst damage. All condi on crit effects in game have cooldown so it doesnt matter how fast you hit.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Skotlex.7580 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Bleeding dose not realty fit on earth its a def line that happens to have bleeding on its skills. If you bleed something and do more physical dmg to that target and not bleed dmg and or condi dmg is it a realty condi aimed line? I think air line and air skills should have the condi effect bleed or other and lose its cc out put. Its the earth line that should have the cc effects as its the "physical" tank line and not a "support" tank line. Earth line should be more looked at as a war line where your pulling aggro base off of skill taunt or strong cc skills both hard knock down and roots/cripple.

    Earth really needs a rework, hence the topic. however, I do believe that it should have a condition damage aspect to it. Other than bleeding, burning is the only other damaging condition that elementalist outputs, and that is already handled by the fire trait line. If it were up to me, I'd make fire the condition / offensive line, whereas earth would be condition / defense. of course, the condition oriented traits should not be minor traits to keep the viability for non-condition focused builds.

    What elementalist needs in general is for traits to not be so locked into specific attunments. If fire / earth traits allowed for better condition damage output while in other elements, that would improve the gameplay (the current direction seems already this way: give a certain boost while in all elements, with double the bonus when on the aligned one).

    Right now earth line is not looked as as a dmg line and it realy lacks any "condi" dmg on that line looking at the GM alone makes it blut that it was not made with the ideal of condi. You can make the argument that arcain line is more of a condi dmg line then earth has ever been. Its not good for balancing in the long run to have a line cover both a def and dmg aimed at the same time. Your going to have it become an op line or an up line with no real balances between the give and takes of the updates. Its far better to make dmg line have the condi dmg.

    Added note torment fits ele as the first version of torment was frost bit from the Ice elemental fractal. Bleed has become a place holder condi as its no longer the only stacking condi dmg in the game.

    Yes earth line needs a massive update but condi dmg is not the right path for it your far better off asking for more hard / soft cc effects from the line.

    Earth is pretty mandatory in every condi ele build nowadays tbh so idk how it's "not looked as dmg line". Arcane does nothing after nerfs to arcane power. It's always been a condi (bleed as offense)/defense hybrid, no need to reinvent the wheel.

    What happens then is it can never be a real tank line as ele as a class is balanced as a gen. So it will always do less then other classes and get less def effect then other classes. Earth atument and earth skills are mandatory in condi ele builds as for the line it self it happens to just be that there is nothing else for ele to help its condis. If you added in condi dmg on air line working with crits and air skills started to apply condis you would see condi builds and over all dmg build for ele get a lot more use then the game play we have now.

    Air skills would apply condis like bleed faster then earth skills and becuse air line it self is partly about criting the condi ele can make a real game play of condi on crit. Nothing about earth line lets the ele play to that.

    Air has nothing to do with condies though. It's main focus are mobility, crit strikes and burst damage. All condi on crit effects in game have cooldown so it doesnt matter how fast you hit.

    Every thing has mobility on ele... even earth has mobility now lol.

    Why dose earth bleed though nothing about getting hit with a rock should make you magicly bleed getting shocked would cause real problems that would stay with you. If any thing earth line should be the least magic of all of the atument and condis are the "magic" dmg in this game above every thing else.

    That how odds work though the more you hit the more likely your going to crit. This game is not balanced with 100% crit rate in mind. Air also has fury generation given you an opining to cirt more.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Every thing has mobility on ele... even earth has mobility now lol.

    Why dose earth bleed though nothing about getting hit with a rock should make you magicly bleed getting shocked would cause real problems that would stay with you. If any thing earth line should be the least magic of all of the atument and condis are the "magic" dmg in this game above every thing else.

    That how odds work though the more you hit the more likely your going to crit. This game is not balanced with 100% crit rate in mind. Air also has fury generation given you an opining to cirt more.

    I'm talking about traits, not weapon skills. Gw2 doesnt have magic damage and condies have nothing to do with magic whatsoever. Nothing you're saying makes any sense really.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Literally every earth weapon applies bleed though

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Every thing has mobility on ele... even earth has mobility now lol.

    Why dose earth bleed though nothing about getting hit with a rock should make you magicly bleed getting shocked would cause real problems that would stay with you. If any thing earth line should be the least magic of all of the atument and condis are the "magic" dmg in this game above every thing else.

    That how odds work though the more you hit the more likely your going to crit. This game is not balanced with 100% crit rate in mind. Air also has fury generation given you an opining to cirt more.

    I'm talking about traits, not weapon skills. Gw2 doesnt have magic damage and condies have nothing to do with magic whatsoever. Nothing you're saying makes any sense really.

    All of earth line has is 2 traits not even a GM that effects condis and they are not that good to start with 20% bleed duration is ok but 5% more dmg vs bleeding target is nothing for a condi build. More condi dmg is nice as well as bleed on root but its has a cd that worst then most on crit condi and because its root its harder to trigger. Even fire line has more to do with condi dmg then earth line at least it has a blind and a real means of making its condi stronger though might. Maybe if there was a "take less dmg vs bleeding targets" in GM i could see your point but as things stand its more or less a tag on to give anet an excuse to keeping earth skills and the earth trait line weak.

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Literally every earth weapon applies bleed though

    Right but why it would of been better to make every air skill that hits more then once apply a low dmg condi. It feels like earth skills where so week and so unable to stand on there own that they added in a place holder condi like bleed from the old game and now its even worst as all condis act like bleed in that they can stack the only old balancing for bleed to start with.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • @Jski.6180 said:
    All of earth line has is 2 traits not even a GM that effects condis and they are not that good to start with 20% bleed duration is ok but 5% more dmg vs bleeding target is nothing for a condi build. More condi dmg is nice as well as bleed on root but its has a cd that worst then most on crit condi and because its root its harder to trigger. Even fire line has more to do with condi dmg then earth line at least it has a blind and a real means of making its condi stronger though might. Maybe if there was a "take less dmg vs bleeding targets" in GM i could see your point but as things stand its more or less a tag on to give anet an excuse to keeping earth skills and the earth trait line weak.

    I agree with you, fire is a lot better for condi. Earth is just adding some minor condi damage. I don't even understand how ANet has been missing that point. Earth is so outdated.

    Strenght of Stone ICD is stupid as immobilize is already a rare condition. Plus 3 bleeding on a single target is far from OP...
    Rock Solid, does anyone has ever used it ? 1 stack of stability is already weak, but on top of that, it's only 2 seconds !!
    Earthen Blessing has a nice concept, but it should decrease duration up to 50-75% to be worth considering. Reaper's one reduce is 66% in Reaper form. Earth should be stronger, I mean, look at all those earth monsters immune to soft or hard CC.
    Diamond Skin is only good on a tanky build and Earth line doesn't really help with this. Especially because Stone Heart is one of the best trait to be tankier, but it only works on earth, which makes it less desirable.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Imo earth line is just too situational. Only in earth, when attune in earth, or only above x% hp, and you only apply bleeding in earth, while there are numerous ways to apply burning/might stacks outside fire, making fire line more flexible to situations. Earth is dedicated to camping on a class that can not.

  • FrownyClown.8402FrownyClown.8402 Member ✭✭
    edited February 17, 2020

    Key takeaways about what people would like to see so far.

    • bleed not reliant on earth weapons
    • access to barriers
    • less dependency on being in earth atonement
    • reliable stability access

    Possible fixes based on suggestions

    Earthen Blast- trait retired replaced with Earthen Barrier

    Earthen Barrier- gain 500 barrier when attuning to earth

    Serrated Stones - retired. Replaced by Bleeding Precision.

    Bleeding Precision - 10% chance to bleed for 3s on critical hit. 10% bleeding duration increase.

    Rock Solid- whenever you apply protection to yourself gain 2s of stability. No longer affects allies. 5s icd

    Stone Heart - Critical hits applied to you reduced by 30%. (Not sure if game is capable of calculating this)

    Diamond skin - reduce incoming condition duration by 40% as long as you have protection.

  • FrownyClown.8402FrownyClown.8402 Member ✭✭
    edited February 17, 2020

    Written in Stone- no longer maintain passive effects of signets after use. No longer reduce CD of signets. Trait now grants signets an extra charge before going on cooldown.

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭

    Cough, cough!

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/90607/earth-traitline-is-in-need-of-buffs#latest

    Idk, I felt like I must at least mention the older post. Of course, buffing earth should be a group effort. I like the new idea for diamond skin the most.

    Serrated stones does need a buff. Bleeding damage should be an optimal source of condition damage for Eles. I would recommend a different approach though. Bleeding on crit is too similar to arcane precision. It also encourages precision traiting, when you're really trying to trait more condi damage

  • @Stallic.2397 said:
    Cough, cough!

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/90607/earth-traitline-is-in-need-of-buffs#latest

    Idk, I felt like I must at least mention the older post. Of course, buffing earth should be a group effort. I like the new idea for diamond skin the most.

    Serrated stones does need a buff. Bleeding damage should be an optimal source of condition damage for Eles. I would recommend a different approach though. Bleeding on crit is too similar to arcane precision. It also encourages precision traiting, when you're really trying to trait more condi damage

    Giving tectonic shift on stab along with gaining stab every attunement swap would give weavers too much stability and barrier imo.

    Giving stab whenever you apply protection to yourself let's you synergize with elemental attunement and elemental shielding for on demand stab.

    Tectonic shift is a great idea, but I think should be added elsewhere in the traitline.

    You could maybe add it to earthen blessing. Remove the endurance gain and instead gain tectonic shift if affected by a movement impairing condition.

    Written in stone change you suggested I'm not sure about. Conceptually, its interesting, but, signets are just bad in general and this still wouldn't make them viable. They need stronger effects and I'm not sure giving them some barrier is enough.

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:

    @Stallic.2397 said:
    Cough, cough!

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/90607/earth-traitline-is-in-need-of-buffs#latest

    Idk, I felt like I must at least mention the older post. Of course, buffing earth should be a group effort. I like the new idea for diamond skin the most.

    Serrated stones does need a buff. Bleeding damage should be an optimal source of condition damage for Eles. I would recommend a different approach though. Bleeding on crit is too similar to arcane precision. It also encourages precision traiting, when you're really trying to trait more condi damage

    Giving tectonic shift on stab along with gaining stab every attunement swap would give weavers too much stability and barrier imo.

    Giving stab whenever you apply protection to yourself let's you synergize with elemental attunement and elemental shielding for on demand stab.

    Tectonic shift is a great idea, but I think should be added elsewhere in the traitline.

    You could maybe add it to earthen blessing. Remove the endurance gain and instead gain tectonic shift if affected by a movement impairing condition.

    Written in stone change you suggested I'm not sure about. Conceptually, its interesting, but, signets are just bad in general and this still wouldn't make them viable. They need stronger effects and I'm not sure giving them some barrier is enough.

    It was later suggested to put stab on signet use instead of barrier. But given the coming balance patch, where Stab is being removed/nerfed game wide. I doubt any suggested buffs to stab will be implemented. But I do agree, Rock solid isn't strong enough

    If armor of earth is getting a huge Cooldown nerf, Anet should just replace it soon and add another source of defense/stab instead.

    Tectonic shift with earthen blessing is a good idea.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Any though on maybe making Elemental Shield have an aoe stab 3 stack 4 duration on aura transmutation ontop of its protection on auras? I realty think every line should have an transmutation on it giving them a real use for the core ele. I like to see an air one as well as water one.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.