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Including Strike Mission Achievements as a Required Part of the Zone Meta

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  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Anet is assume people don't raid because they're not good enough. People don't raid because raiding isn't fun for them.

    I'm not defending adding strikes to the meta, but there are plenty of people who don't raid because they're not good enough. The constant dying due to lack of game knowledge eventually leads to frustration that leads to not liking raids. And there are people who just don't like raids at all as you say. Both of these types can exist at the same time. You can't just say everyone who doesn't raid does it strictly because they don't like raiding. It's difficult and the gap between open world bosses that require nothing more than afking while auto attacking and raiding isn't something someone should just expect to pug into one random night and 1 shot every boss for free stuff.

    It wouldn't hurt the game if something coerced some players to do more than press 1 with a condi weapon while wearing a mix of magi/soldier gear with green runes in it.

    But to clarify, I don't think forcing people into strikes for the meta is the way to go.

    I'd wager you're wrong about this. People don't raid because they're casual. That doesn't mean they're not raiding because they're not good enough. It means they don't care enough to get better to do content that doesn't interest them. See, in order to really be good, you'd need to go to a website an look up a build, get the correct armor sorted, and then practice in front of a golem and download a DPS meter. None of these are casual activities.

    The thing is, anyone that wants to could do those things, but they don't want to do those things, because games aren't work to everyone. Those things aren't fun to everyone.

    You're trying to make the correlation that they're not good enough so they don't raid. The real correlation here is that they don't want to raid, so they don't have to jump through those hoops. It's not about being able to do it. It's not wanting to do it. And people dont' seem to get that.

    Do you really think I can't download a DPS meter and get a build from snowcrows and stand at a practice dummy until I have my rotation down? Of course I can. How many people have said raiding isn't hard. But the act of doing that would interfere with my actual enjoyment of the game. It would be less immersive. The more I look at numbers, the less I'm thinking about the world and the lore and the motivation of my characters. It's the difference between people focusing on mechanics and people focusing on immersion. I'm not interested in having a rotation at all full stop. I want to, and enjoy, reacting to the world around me.

    I'm playing a different game that raids would take me out of. Anyone can learn that rotation, and get those builds and practice until they know where to stand. It's easy if you like doing it. But some of us don't like doing it. Those that enjoy it will likely never understand.

    Sorry, but this is not about you.

    There has been ample arguments and discussion, as well as developer comments on huge performance disparity, that you can't simply put off the issue as:
    raids are not to hard for me, hence they are not to hard for any other player.

    It's fine to argue you don't believe raids have no place in this game. You can't with full honesty though argue that raids are not to difficult for part of the player base if even the developers state their intention is to introduce intermediate content especially to tackle this issue.

    You've completely missed my point. THe question isn't whether raids are too difficult or not. That's never really been the question. The question is are people not doing raids because they're too difficult. Getting better is something anyone can do if they want to do it. They don't want to do it, not because they want to be carried through everything, but because they don't want their game to feel like a job and it would...for a lot of people, myself included.

    I'm saying anyone who wants to get better and raid, gets better and raids. The fact that others aren't getting better is not the reason they're not raiding. They're not getting better because they don't have interest in that harder content. If they were suddenly better that doesn't mean they'd have interest in that harder content, or they'd get better if that makes sense.

    The 100s of page long threads about easy mode raids as well as the developer approach to this issue would suggest you are incorrect in your assumption, which is mostly based on your personal subjective experience. That's all I am saying.

    I know a whole lot of people who have no interest in raids, having raided in other games. None. Zero. Burned out on raids. Came here to get away from raids. Relaxing, not min/maxing, as one guy put it. You can say I'm wrong because there's a thread on the forums that asks for easy mode raids, but probably half the people in that thread were against it.

    I'm not saying your wrong, I'm saying you can't simply dismiss a notion like raids are to difficult simply due to personal experience (especially with weighted evidence against this opinion). You might very well be right.

    I'm saying to simply dismiss something because it does not fit a personal argument or opinion is folly.

    There was a very highly upvoted thread on reddit about just this topic. People didn't want to do raids because they didn't want to spend their time trying to organzie groups of ten people. The post had hundreds of upvotes. It was only a couple of weeks ago. If you read through that thread, you'd see how much support there is for the idea that difficulty is not the main reason people avoid raids, unless you're talking about the difficulty of organization.

    Which does not in anyway address the huge performance disparity between players which is evident at every step of PvE content. Or past desire of players for easy mode raids. Or the developers attempt to bridge this performance disparity.

    You've been approaching this thread from your personal view the entire 4 threads so far bringing literally every argument down to: I believe because I feel this way and any opinion which is in congruence with mine is correct, every other is incorrect.

    So fine, you are right. On everything. The developers and every one else with a diverging opinion is wrong. Let's hope the developers read this topic and discover the error in their metrics and ways.

    The disparty has to do with focus. That's what you're not getting. I know how to get really good damage, if I were interested in just that. I get okay damage because I don't want to push myself that hard. I play to relax. That's all.

    I linked that thread from reddit btw, in my last reply to you.

    You seem to think just because someone is doing less damage, it means they can't do more damage. How many people are chatting with their buddies, watching a movie while playing, surfing the web while playing. I have two monitors and it's not unusual for me to play while I'm doing other stuff on the other side. I'm just not that focused or worried about doing damage, unless I'm doing something that requires that focus. Vinetooth Prime. A bounty maybe. But most of the time, If I'm doing a world boss Iv'e done 87 times before or even running through one of the old dungeons, I just don't need that focus, and I do less damage. I save my energy for when I really need it.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Anet is assume people don't raid because they're not good enough. People don't raid because raiding isn't fun for them.

    I'm not defending adding strikes to the meta, but there are plenty of people who don't raid because they're not good enough. The constant dying due to lack of game knowledge eventually leads to frustration that leads to not liking raids. And there are people who just don't like raids at all as you say. Both of these types can exist at the same time. You can't just say everyone who doesn't raid does it strictly because they don't like raiding. It's difficult and the gap between open world bosses that require nothing more than afking while auto attacking and raiding isn't something someone should just expect to pug into one random night and 1 shot every boss for free stuff.

    It wouldn't hurt the game if something coerced some players to do more than press 1 with a condi weapon while wearing a mix of magi/soldier gear with green runes in it.

    But to clarify, I don't think forcing people into strikes for the meta is the way to go.

    I'd wager you're wrong about this. People don't raid because they're casual. That doesn't mean they're not raiding because they're not good enough. It means they don't care enough to get better to do content that doesn't interest them. See, in order to really be good, you'd need to go to a website an look up a build, get the correct armor sorted, and then practice in front of a golem and download a DPS meter. None of these are casual activities.

    The thing is, anyone that wants to could do those things, but they don't want to do those things, because games aren't work to everyone. Those things aren't fun to everyone.

    You're trying to make the correlation that they're not good enough so they don't raid. The real correlation here is that they don't want to raid, so they don't have to jump through those hoops. It's not about being able to do it. It's not wanting to do it. And people dont' seem to get that.

    Do you really think I can't download a DPS meter and get a build from snowcrows and stand at a practice dummy until I have my rotation down? Of course I can. How many people have said raiding isn't hard. But the act of doing that would interfere with my actual enjoyment of the game. It would be less immersive. The more I look at numbers, the less I'm thinking about the world and the lore and the motivation of my characters. It's the difference between people focusing on mechanics and people focusing on immersion. I'm not interested in having a rotation at all full stop. I want to, and enjoy, reacting to the world around me.

    I'm playing a different game that raids would take me out of. Anyone can learn that rotation, and get those builds and practice until they know where to stand. It's easy if you like doing it. But some of us don't like doing it. Those that enjoy it will likely never understand.

    Sorry, but this is not about you.

    There has been ample arguments and discussion, as well as developer comments on huge performance disparity, that you can't simply put off the issue as:
    raids are not to hard for me, hence they are not to hard for any other player.

    It's fine to argue you don't believe raids have no place in this game. You can't with full honesty though argue that raids are not to difficult for part of the player base if even the developers state their intention is to introduce intermediate content especially to tackle this issue.

    You've completely missed my point. THe question isn't whether raids are too difficult or not. That's never really been the question. The question is are people not doing raids because they're too difficult. Getting better is something anyone can do if they want to do it. They don't want to do it, not because they want to be carried through everything, but because they don't want their game to feel like a job and it would...for a lot of people, myself included.

    I'm saying anyone who wants to get better and raid, gets better and raids. The fact that others aren't getting better is not the reason they're not raiding. They're not getting better because they don't have interest in that harder content. If they were suddenly better that doesn't mean they'd have interest in that harder content, or they'd get better if that makes sense.

    The 100s of page long threads about easy mode raids as well as the developer approach to this issue would suggest you are incorrect in your assumption, which is mostly based on your personal subjective experience. That's all I am saying.

    I know a whole lot of people who have no interest in raids, having raided in other games. None. Zero. Burned out on raids. Came here to get away from raids. Relaxing, not min/maxing, as one guy put it. You can say I'm wrong because there's a thread on the forums that asks for easy mode raids, but probably half the people in that thread were against it.

    I'm not saying your wrong, I'm saying you can't simply dismiss a notion like raids are to difficult simply due to personal experience (especially with weighted evidence against this opinion). You might very well be right.

    I'm saying to simply dismiss something because it does not fit a personal argument or opinion is folly.

    There was a very highly upvoted thread on reddit about just this topic. People didn't want to do raids because they didn't want to spend their time trying to organzie groups of ten people. The post had hundreds of upvotes. It was only a couple of weeks ago. If you read through that thread, you'd see how much support there is for the idea that difficulty is not the main reason people avoid raids, unless you're talking about the difficulty of organization.

    Which does not in anyway address the huge performance disparity between players which is evident at every step of PvE content. Or past desire of players for easy mode raids. Or the developers attempt to bridge this performance disparity.

    You've been approaching this thread from your personal view the entire 4 threads so far bringing literally every argument down to: I believe because I feel this way and any opinion which is in congruence with mine is correct, every other is incorrect.

    So fine, you are right. On everything. The developers and every one else with a diverging opinion is wrong. Let's hope the developers read this topic and discover the error in their metrics and ways.

    The disparty has to do with focus. That's what you're not getting. I know how to get really good damage, if I were interested in just that. I get okay damage because I don't want to push myself that hard. I play to relax. That's all.

    THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU!

    Why must every little argument for you boil down to:"I do this and thus it must be the only correct way to look at this?"

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    I linked that thread from reddit btw, in my last reply to you.

    You did and it is clear you did not actually care to read through the comments. I did in the past. Both on that thread as well as the article it refers to.

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    You seem to think just because someone is doing less damage, it means they can't do more damage. How many people are chatting with their buddies, watching a movie while playing, surfing the web while playing. I have two monitors and it's not unusual for me to play while I'm doing other stuff on the other side. I'm just not that focused or worried about doing damage, unless I'm doing something that requires that focus. Vinetooth Prime. A bounty maybe. But most of the time, If I'm doing a world boss Iv'e done 87 times before or even running through one of the old dungeons, I just don't need that focus, and I do less damage. I save my energy for when I really need it.

    Again, THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU.

    I seem to think that my personal observation is not the be all end all. I am keeping an open mind to what can and can't be by looking at which facts we actually have. I try to put developer comments into perspective which have directly said that there is a huge disparity which they want to address. I do not put in additional words like: people just don;t want to, or are afk, or etc.etc.etc.

    I'm also not the one going: "oh strikes are easy because I can do them no problem with my raid static". That's your approach. I'm looking at what reasons might or might not be present for certain actions from the developers. Why they might want to reduce the performance disparity in the player base. Why that could matter.

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Anet is assume people don't raid because they're not good enough. People don't raid because raiding isn't fun for them.

    I'm not defending adding strikes to the meta, but there are plenty of people who don't raid because they're not good enough. The constant dying due to lack of game knowledge eventually leads to frustration that leads to not liking raids. And there are people who just don't like raids at all as you say. Both of these types can exist at the same time. You can't just say everyone who doesn't raid does it strictly because they don't like raiding. It's difficult and the gap between open world bosses that require nothing more than afking while auto attacking and raiding isn't something someone should just expect to pug into one random night and 1 shot every boss for free stuff.

    It wouldn't hurt the game if something coerced some players to do more than press 1 with a condi weapon while wearing a mix of magi/soldier gear with green runes in it.

    But to clarify, I don't think forcing people into strikes for the meta is the way to go.

    I'd wager you're wrong about this. People don't raid because they're casual. That doesn't mean they're not raiding because they're not good enough. It means they don't care enough to get better to do content that doesn't interest them. See, in order to really be good, you'd need to go to a website an look up a build, get the correct armor sorted, and then practice in front of a golem and download a DPS meter. None of these are casual activities.

    The thing is, anyone that wants to could do those things, but they don't want to do those things, because games aren't work to everyone. Those things aren't fun to everyone.

    You're trying to make the correlation that they're not good enough so they don't raid. The real correlation here is that they don't want to raid, so they don't have to jump through those hoops. It's not about being able to do it. It's not wanting to do it. And people dont' seem to get that.

    Do you really think I can't download a DPS meter and get a build from snowcrows and stand at a practice dummy until I have my rotation down? Of course I can. How many people have said raiding isn't hard. But the act of doing that would interfere with my actual enjoyment of the game. It would be less immersive. The more I look at numbers, the less I'm thinking about the world and the lore and the motivation of my characters. It's the difference between people focusing on mechanics and people focusing on immersion. I'm not interested in having a rotation at all full stop. I want to, and enjoy, reacting to the world around me.

    I'm playing a different game that raids would take me out of. Anyone can learn that rotation, and get those builds and practice until they know where to stand. It's easy if you like doing it. But some of us don't like doing it. Those that enjoy it will likely never understand.

    Sorry, but this is not about you.

    There has been ample arguments and discussion, as well as developer comments on huge performance disparity, that you can't simply put off the issue as:
    raids are not to hard for me, hence they are not to hard for any other player.

    It's fine to argue you don't believe raids have no place in this game. You can't with full honesty though argue that raids are not to difficult for part of the player base if even the developers state their intention is to introduce intermediate content especially to tackle this issue.

    You've completely missed my point. THe question isn't whether raids are too difficult or not. That's never really been the question. The question is are people not doing raids because they're too difficult. Getting better is something anyone can do if they want to do it. They don't want to do it, not because they want to be carried through everything, but because they don't want their game to feel like a job and it would...for a lot of people, myself included.

    I'm saying anyone who wants to get better and raid, gets better and raids. The fact that others aren't getting better is not the reason they're not raiding. They're not getting better because they don't have interest in that harder content. If they were suddenly better that doesn't mean they'd have interest in that harder content, or they'd get better if that makes sense.

    The 100s of page long threads about easy mode raids as well as the developer approach to this issue would suggest you are incorrect in your assumption, which is mostly based on your personal subjective experience. That's all I am saying.

    I know a whole lot of people who have no interest in raids, having raided in other games. None. Zero. Burned out on raids. Came here to get away from raids. Relaxing, not min/maxing, as one guy put it. You can say I'm wrong because there's a thread on the forums that asks for easy mode raids, but probably half the people in that thread were against it.

    I'm not saying your wrong, I'm saying you can't simply dismiss a notion like raids are to difficult simply due to personal experience (especially with weighted evidence against this opinion). You might very well be right.

    I'm saying to simply dismiss something because it does not fit a personal argument or opinion is folly.

    There was a very highly upvoted thread on reddit about just this topic. People didn't want to do raids because they didn't want to spend their time trying to organzie groups of ten people. The post had hundreds of upvotes. It was only a couple of weeks ago. If you read through that thread, you'd see how much support there is for the idea that difficulty is not the main reason people avoid raids, unless you're talking about the difficulty of organization.

    Which does not in anyway address the huge performance disparity between players which is evident at every step of PvE content (which would explain nicely how a certain part of the player base could potentially not perform adequately in a raid environment). Or past desire of players for easy mode raids. Or the developers attempt to bridge this performance disparity.

    Whenever a casuals comes here on the forums to whine , its about the difficulty of the raid but rather than the hostile envoroment of the other l33t ppl .
    (not enought dps and 2 wipes= kick )
    Not about the boss that can 1-shot them , nor that the mechanics such as avoid the aoes , or hit the second target target .
    The raid encounter can be killed in 4 min by an orginised group , but is has been tailored around the not-so-optiomal-gameplay a.k.a 12 min and when the boss is enraged it doesnt do 1-shot damage .
    The casuals wants a easy mode ,to get away from l33t players

    PPl saying that are huge performance disparity between players is an excuse that they dont want casuals in their group .
    Or they have alts accounts , that are selling runs for huge amount of gold :P

    The casuals dont want to create their onw group , without expiriance and they stick on trainning group forever or skip it entirly .
    The company see that the majority does only the easy bosses every week , and not full runs
    Not enought numbers = no need for future raids

    (edit any chance for an investigation of alts account selling runs vs forums accounts ?:P)

    Just let me have fun for a while

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @Zok.4956 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zok.4956 said:
    Raiders earn gold and can convert gold to gems if they want to buy something with gems and very often they do not need to buy gems with real money. Whales on the other hand buy a lot of gems with real money because they do not make enough gold to convert it into all the gems they want.

    Any player who runs daily fractals, is making more gold per week than players that only raid. Any player that does 1-2 hours of RIBA per day, or similar farms, is making more gold per week than a raider, matching the gold per hour of fast full clear groups.

    The players who are super rich, as you point them out, are TP traders. Being a TP trader is unaffiliated to any content in this game.

    I fail to see your argument make the criteria for raiders being wealthy enough to not buy gems. You are nicely playing off of a stereotype though: the oh so rich raiders subjugating the masses of poor casual players.

    Raiders are usually not "super rich" (I never wrote they are super rich) like some tp-traders, and there are probably other ways to make gold more efficiently in the game (I never wrote that raiding is the most efficient way of making gold in the game), but Raiders get more wealth from raiding and have better access to cheap ascended gear than the majority of other PvE players from their play style, so the likelyhood, that raiders are typically "whales" or even spend much more real money for gems than the "average player" is quite low.

    I do see a pattern in your arguments using hyberboles.

    That is simply untrue. I have pointed and given an exact amount of wealth raiders accumulate and even applied very generous assumptions (3-4 hour clear times, no wipes, no practices, full clear, etc.). The exact wealth/hour is well documented for players who participate in raids, and it does not hold up to a vast amount of other more casual content. It's actually a major complaint from raid players, that the rewards do not justify the effort, but who cares to listen to those complaints in the first place.

    Unless you can prove that a raider outperforms some of the most run open world farms in gold/hour, you are simply pulling statements out of thin air.

    Every T4 fractal player will get more loot and wealth per hour than raider.

    Now, many raiders also do T4 fractals, and also farm in the open world, but that would automatically make the player more invested in the game. Then again there is players who farm 6-8 hours per day casually and have more money than most players. Just look at the outcries when the Istan farm got nerfed, or the regular boss farm trains.

    The belief that raids as content alone are highly profitable is plain incorrect, and that is backed up by numbers.

    @Zok.4956 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zok.4956 said:
    Whales generate the main revenue stream in the gem-shop/microtransactions. The whales that I know are not raiders. The raiders (this includes myself) that I know are not whales. Raiders and whales are typically different player types. Of course it is possible, that there are raiders, that are also whales, but this would be a very small percentage of raiders and given the already small population of raiders in this game, it would be even less players, so this would not result in a significant revenue stream.

    The population of raiders is so small at the moment, that Anet can not justify to invest money to create more raids. If the raid population would create a significant revenue stream, Anet would simply create more raids for this players and this revenue stream instead of creating strike-missions.

    Without repeating myself, I've already explained why and how I define how players can get invested, and a central aspect of that being highly committed to the game, let's bring this down to 1 question again:

    "highly committed to the game" can mean a lot of things and is too vague for the discussion.
    For example: A person that is writing on the forum, never buys gems with real money and is not playing the game anymore can still be classified as "highly committed to the game".

    Sure they can, I never said otherwise. I simply pointed to the fact that a player more engaged with the game could be more likely more committed. You might notice that I explicitly never omitted casual players (as defined by me earlier as non raid playing) from this distinction.

    @Zok.4956 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You are saying a vast majority of whales would not be raiders, ultimately arguing that devoting resources or content design to this niche group of players is incorrect,

    Yes, I believe that the vast majority of whales are not raiders, and that the vast majority of raiders are not whales. But your saying "that devoting resources or content design to this niche group of players is incorrect" is from me is completely wrong. I never wrote that. Please do not try to put those words into my mouth.

    I do however repeated Anets own statement, that they can not justify putting more ressources into the development of raids and I draw from that the conclusion, that raiders are not a main part of the revenue for the game (if they were, Anet would just make more raids).

    And, just to be clear, I initially responded/answered to your question/thought ...

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    What if: a main part of the revenue of the game was/is coming from the hardcore dedicated fraction of the player base?

    … regarding to raids, because raids are the only 10-player-instanced content that is in the game for quite some time and sometimes raids are seen as "hardcore". I could also had written about 5-player-instanced content that is sometimes also seen as "hardcore", for example, about fractals 100-cm, but I do not do those, so I did not wrote about that. I also did not write about openworld-PvE because this is usually not labelled as "hardcore". I also did not write about PvP and WvW because the discussion was not about PvP or WvW.

    Do you really believe, that raiders are the main part of the revenue of the game? Because: If you do not believe that, why are you even argueing with me?

    Sure, I believe part of the hardcore crowd, especially raiders, are very invested in the game and among them are many who spend money on the gem store. As do some of the most dedicated WvW players and PvP players.

    I think as far as average revenue per player, the niche communities will perform far better than the average revenue per open world only player. Does that mean that total revenue will be most from those niche modes? Very likely not, but I never said that I assumed that. I said I believe that revenue from all game modes is required to keep the game financially in good health.

    @Zok.4956 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    which seems to go against the developers approach (which offers enough potential discussion because in the end, the devs have all the metrics), fine.

    The developers approach is to not make more raids at the moment until they get much more players into raiding.

    The developers approach is to try to accommodate as much of their player base as possible with limited amount of resources while specifically mentioning a renewed focus on challenging group content. All while the overall player numbers have dropped, which affects niche game modes even more drastically (see the merging of WvW servers into 4 tiers instead of 5 too).

    My personal belief, and I have no proof for this, is that they are hoping to keep the hardcore raid playing base sufficiently occupied with minimal content, similar to the WvW and PvP player bases btw, until they can turn the ship around while providing the bare minimum in open world and story content.

    We don't have to wonder though, the amount of challenging content announced for this year is minimal, if at all. The amount of challenging content released last year was minimal. So from that angle, it will be very well documented how the games financial performance continues and develops.

  • sevenDEADLY.5281sevenDEADLY.5281 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    I know a whole lot of people who have no interest in raids, having raided in other games. None. Zero. Burned out on raids. Came here to get away from raids. Relaxing, not min/maxing, as one guy put it. You can say I'm wrong because there's a thread on the forums that asks for easy mode raids, but probably half the people in that thread were against it.

    But the 100 response long pages of requests for easy mode raids that constantly gets brought up is direct evidence against what you're saying. Saying "I know people" is literally just anecdotal evidence. Also the fact that you think you NEED to download a dps meter and that you NEED to copy a meta build from a top tier raiding website also shows that you're out of touch with what it takes to raid. I don't have a dps meter and you just need to have slightly more than a basic grasp of mmo mechanics and build synergy to raid, and again, people who literally just press 1 and down world bosses in a mix of random gear with random traits don't have this because they've never had to. These are the same people that complain that story mode is too hard when most people can can sleepwalk through story mode.

    Edit: Heres a quote from @Fundor.2098 I just found in another thread about the whispers of jormag strike. He seems to be exactly the type of person you're saying doesn't exist.

    "Is it truly so difficult, it's comparable to raids?
    I've never done raids before (well, after a couple of epic failures after Vale Guardian was added to the game), but I'm quite interested in them nevertheless. Always expected them to be far out of my skill level though, and finding a group to learn them with has been too much of a hassle thanks to my irregular gaming times. Let me tell you, a three-shift work and a long-distance relationship make it impossible to attend literally anything regularly.
    But after figuring out the strategy for the Whisper, the groups I've attended haven't failed a single run, despite there having been people who were new to it. A simple explanation of what is to come and what to keep an eye for, making sure at least a portion of the people are playing with team support focused builds, and everything goes smoothly!

    Are the Strike Missions actually doing their job? If so, I'm even more grateful for them, than I was before!

    Anyhow, your point numer 5, about a strike mission currency, the like of raid currencies, was a very good one."

  • @Pirogen.9561 said:

    @Shadowmoon.7986 said:
    And you are a vocal minority. And there is evidence to show this. Using gw2 efficiency data, of the 49653 people who started the episode, 8677 people have killed strike whisper of jormag, the boss the same difficultly as a raid boss. Compare this to people who completed all the light puzzles, 7433, jumping puzzles are a bigger barrier to the meta than strikes. If you ignore boneskinner achievements (he been bugged since the update) or the high skill "flawless" strike achievements, the lowest completed achievements are the mundane repeat events 20 times. Honestly repeating the same unrewarding event 20 is probably the biggest gate from completing the meta, not doing the strikes.

    Only 8K players did strike? Thats a very small number.

    Can we plz stop being disengenious, 8.6k out of a 50k sample size. That is almost 18%. Only 60% of the sample even finished the story. Less than 15% completed all the light puzzles. Less than 5% completed the totem events 20 times.
    So back at the statement, about 1 in 5 people is not a small number.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    The 100s of page long threads about easy mode raids ...

    In all of those threads, those opposed to easy mode raids point out that its only a few posters who keep asking for the "easy mode" raids. Having read through most of them, it certainly looked that way to me, also. The length of those threads also owes a lot more to dozens of back-and-forth posts by two opposed contributors than it does to any groundswell of demand. I'm not sure the length of those threads is a good argument for a sufficient demand for easier raid-like content to warrant strikes. It looks more like every once in a whole someone new comes along and makes the request, then the usual suspects jump in on both sides of the discussion.

    as well as the developer approach to this issue would suggest you are incorrect in your assumption, which is mostly based on your personal subjective experience. That's all I am saying.

    ANet offering strikes as a bridge to raids could suggest that there are a significant number of players who want to raid but are put off by the difficulty jump. However, as has been pointed out many times in the "easy raid" threads, there is already an easier-to-harder difficulty curve in the existing raids. However, that has not been sufficient to bridge the gap. Releasing easier raid encounters with no real rewards as "strike missions" may do so, or it may not. I tend not to think so, but maybe I'll be wrong.

    Either way, it's a mistake to assume that because ANet has more data than us, they know what they're doing. There is too much history of ANet missteps over too many things, and of them misreading the psychological factors behind what players want for me to buy that. Using strikes as a bridge to raids seems more to me like a last-ditch pie-in-the-sky attempt to be seen to be doing something to suggest that there will be more raids in future. ANet could well be grasping at straws to try to offer some hope to hardcore players in the wake of the lengthy periods between raid wings and the "template" fiasco rather than betting on a sure thing.

    I think the truth is that there are both players who want to raid who need training wheels, and those who don't raid because they don't want to raid. I think what Vayne is suggesting is that he does not raid not because of difficulty but because he doesn't like that type of content, and that there are likely more players like him -- not that all players who don't want to raid could if they want to. His reaction is likely a response to the several comments that he -- to put it crudely -- "git gud."

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    But if you want to raise the bar, in my opinion, this isn't the way to do it. It's long been a problem with the nature of open world PvE being so casual in this game. You change the game you lose the playerbase. It's just logic.

    It isn't logic, it is just denial.
    And developers has been feeding this denial by making map events brainlessly simple even more players left because there is no thrills even fighting meta bosses.
    Years back, we had even more players online when half the world bosses and have medium to high chances of failure.

    Besides, I don't see the majority of casual player cares about finishing map meta achievements either, strike mission or not. They play to grind, instead to achieve.

    The Arah story mode was changed to solo mode because it takes too long and too little reward for players who have done this story to replay, not because it was too hard.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    I know a whole lot of people who have no interest in raids, having raided in other games. None. Zero. Burned out on raids. Came here to get away from raids. Relaxing, not min/maxing, as one guy put it. You can say I'm wrong because there's a thread on the forums that asks for easy mode raids, but probably half the people in that thread were against it.

    But the 100 response long pages of requests for easy mode raids that constantly gets brought up is direct evidence against what you're saying.

    It's not. It's at best an evidence, that people want easy mode raids. Not normal/hard mode ones.
    The people that simply want better access/less limitations towards raids, are the people that ask for automatic queuing system or similar stuff. Frankly, don't remember a lot of those threads.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • sevenDEADLY.5281sevenDEADLY.5281 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:
    But the 100 response long pages of requests for easy mode raids that constantly gets brought up is direct evidence against what you're saying.

    It's not. It's at best an evidence, that people want easy mode raids. Not normal/hard mode ones.
    The people that simply want better access/less limitations towards raids, are the people that ask for automatic queuing system or similar stuff. Frankly, don't remember a lot of those threads.

    It 100% is. If it was as he is saying and people didn't do raids because they just don't like raids, and NOT because they feel they aren't good enough for raids, they WOULDN'T be asking for easier raids. It's really not that hard to understand.

  • sevenDEADLY.5281sevenDEADLY.5281 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    Some people hate PVP. PVP exists in this game. Those people can feel "left out" because they feel its "off limits" to them. Do you want them to get rid of PVP? WvW exists in this game. Some people hate WvW. Do you want them to remove WvW from the game? Some people absolutely loath jumping puzzles. By your logic jumping puzzles should be removed from the game because someone who can't do jumping puzzles might feel "left out" of that area of the game. Raids exist, its part of the game. You can either accept that its part of the game like everyone who doesn't enjoy pvp accepts its part of the game, like people who don't enjoy wvw accepts it part of the game, and people who hate jumping puzzles accept they're part of the game, or you can continue to crusade tirelessly against the evil raids that have made you feel left out and tell everyone about how your opinion is the correct one because you personally don't enjoy them. Either way its pretty clear arenanet isn't making design choices around a single person's preferences.

  • IndigoSundown.5419IndigoSundown.5419 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:
    But the 100 response long pages of requests for easy mode raids that constantly gets brought up is direct evidence against what you're saying.

    It's not. It's at best an evidence, that people want easy mode raids. Not normal/hard mode ones.
    The people that simply want better access/less limitations towards raids, are the people that ask for automatic queuing system or similar stuff. Frankly, don't remember a lot of those threads.

    It 100% is. If it was as he is saying and people didn't do raids because they just don't like raids, and NOT because they feel they aren't good enough for raids, they WOULDN'T be asking for easier raids. It's really not that hard to understand.

    There are both kinds of players. The ones who don't want to raid are not the people asking for easier raids. They're the ones saying raids are bad for the game, that they should never have been introduced, and/or that ANet should not tie open world and raid-lite content together for rewards purposes.

    Each time a new poster has started a thread about easier raids, the same posters jump in to inflate the thread. A few new voices (who usually post once, then disappear) will sometimes chime in. At least half of the posts are arguments against easier raids. The "huge" threads about easy raids are 90% back and forth arguments by the same people -- and those same arguments appear in all of those threads.

    I'm afraid Astral has a point. If you study what's being said, most of the demand for easier raids is about easier access to raid rewards. This could mean that posters demanding easier raids may not actually want to up their game. Thus, strikes may be training wheels content, but they are not what at least some of the players who post in those threads ask for.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • @Vayne.8563 said:

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:
    Some people hate PVP. PVP exists in this game. Those people can feel "left out" because they feel its "off limits" to them. Do you want them to get rid of PVP? WvW exists in this game. Some people hate WvW. Do you want them to remove WvW from the game? Some people absolutely loath jumping puzzles. By your logic jumping puzzles should be removed from the game because someone who can't do jumping puzzles might feel "left out" of that area of the game. Raids exist, its part of the game. You can either accept that its part of the game like everyone who doesn't enjoy pvp accepts its part of the game, like people who don't enjoy wvw accepts it part of the game, and people who hate jumping puzzles accept they're part of the game, or you can continue to crusade tirelessly against the evil raids that have made you feel left out and tell everyone about how your opinion is the correct one because you personally don't enjoy them.

    PvP existed from launch. Raids didn't exist until 3.5 years after launch. If you don't see a difference between something the game was advertised with that I new would be there when I bought and started supporting the game by choice, I'm not sure whatt to tell you. Do you think people who don't want to raid, didn't come to the forums and fight against raids being introduced into the game in the first place? Because I remember those posts.

    PvP has always been there and I accept it because I paid for a game that has it. Do you know what I didn't pay for? A game that requires a healer and a tank. A game that makes you jump through hoops to get a dungeon group together, because any five people could go in. The way the game was advertised.

    Like it or not, raids changed the game from what was advertised into something that was not. And to a lot of peope that felt like betrayal. The same can't be said for PvP.

    MMOs change. Ask WoW players if its the same today as it was at launch. It's not my fault, or anyone else's fault that you've been arguing with tirelessly, that you can't understand that fact.

  • sevenDEADLY.5281sevenDEADLY.5281 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    It 100% is. If it was as he is saying and people didn't do raids because they just don't like raids, and NOT because they feel they aren't good enough for raids, they WOULDN'T be asking for easier raids. It's really not that hard to understand.

    There are both kinds of players. The ones who don't want to raid are not the people asking for easier raids. They're the ones saying raids are bad for the game, that they should never have been introduced, and/or that ANet should not tie open world and raid-lite content together for rewards purposes.

    Each time a new poster has started a thread about easier raids, the same posters jump in to inflate the thread. A few new voices (who usually post once, then disappear) will sometimes chime in. At least half of the posts are arguments against easier raids. The "huge" threads about easy raids are 90% back and forth arguments by the same people -- and those same arguments appear in all of those threads.

    If you study what's being said, also, most of the demand for easier raids is about easier access to raid rewards. This could mean that posters demanding easier raids may not actually want to up their game. Thus, strikes may be training wheels content, they are not what at least some of the players who post in those threads ask for.

    Yes, but I wholeheartedly agreed from the begining that meta achievements should NOT be tied to strikes. I just dared make the opinion that something should encourage players to try to increase their skill level in the game beyond auto attacking in a mix of bad gear with random traits and pointed out that there's a jump in difficulty from open world boss to raid boss. If the argument is that challenging content should not exist in the game because someone might not be able to do it, well that's just crazy.

  • sevenDEADLY.5281sevenDEADLY.5281 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @Dante.1763 said:

    or..or they dont do those modes, like i dont.

    The problem i have with this, is the meta is under the "Story" category. The strikes are not part of the story, are some of the bosses -in- the story? Yes, but are the strikes part of the story? No. The story does not require 10 people to do, so neither should the story meta(IMO)

    If you read my initial post I already agreed strikes should not be tied to metas so I'm unclear of what our disagreement is.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    or..or they dont do those modes, like i dont.

    The problem i have with this, is the meta is under the "Story" category. The strikes are not part of the story, are some of the bosses -in- the story? Yes, but are the strikes part of the story? No. The story does not require 10 people to do, so neither should the story meta(IMO)

    If you read my initial post I already agreed strikes should not be tied to metas so I'm unclear of what our disagreement is.

    I must have missed that post, this thread has gotten decently large! Sorry~

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • Jayden Reese.9542Jayden Reese.9542 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    It 100% is. If it was as he is saying and people didn't do raids because they just don't like raids, and NOT because they feel they aren't good enough for raids, they WOULDN'T be asking for easier raids. It's really not that hard to understand.

    There are both kinds of players. The ones who don't want to raid are not the people asking for easier raids. They're the ones saying raids are bad for the game, that they should never have been introduced, and/or that ANet should not tie open world and raid-lite content together for rewards purposes.

    Each time a new poster has started a thread about easier raids, the same posters jump in to inflate the thread. A few new voices (who usually post once, then disappear) will sometimes chime in. At least half of the posts are arguments against easier raids. The "huge" threads about easy raids are 90% back and forth arguments by the same people -- and those same arguments appear in all of those threads.

    If you study what's being said, also, most of the demand for easier raids is about easier access to raid rewards. This could mean that posters demanding easier raids may not actually want to up their game. Thus, strikes may be training wheels content, they are not what at least some of the players who post in those threads ask for.

    Yes, but I wholeheartedly agreed from the begining that meta achievements should NOT be tied to strikes. I just dared make the opinion that something should encourage players to try to increase their skill level in the game beyond auto attacking in a mix of bad gear with random traits and pointed out that there's a jump in difficulty from open world boss to raid boss. If the argument is that challenging content should not exist in the game because someone might not be able to do it, well that's just crazy.

    I suggest you run. Run like I should have. Even if you agree there is only one point of view here and everyone else is wrong. You can't try and help. You can't encourage or say try you have to 100 percent agree or your ears will bleed from the same reply over and over. it is a vendetta against raids being added and now strikes being there hidden behind they are apart of the meta which most would have no problem if they dropped it to 30/30 or put strikes achieves somewhere else

  • @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Shadowmoon.7986 said:

    @Pirogen.9561 said:

    @Shadowmoon.7986 said:
    And you are a vocal minority. And there is evidence to show this. Using gw2 efficiency data, of the 49653 people who started the episode, 8677 people have killed strike whisper of jormag, the boss the same difficultly as a raid boss. Compare this to people who completed all the light puzzles, 7433, jumping puzzles are a bigger barrier to the meta than strikes. If you ignore boneskinner achievements (he been bugged since the update) or the high skill "flawless" strike achievements, the lowest completed achievements are the mundane repeat events 20 times. Honestly repeating the same unrewarding event 20 is probably the biggest gate from completing the meta, not doing the strikes.

    Only 8K players did strike? Thats a very small number.

    Can we plz stop being disengenious, 8.6k out of a 50k sample size. That is almost 18%. Only 60% of the sample even finished the story. Less than 15% completed all the light puzzles. Less than 5% completed the totem events 20 times.
    So back at the statement, about 1 in 5 people is not a small number.

    In order for any of these statisics to really matter we'd need to know a couple of things we don't know. Active player count is one of them. That is how many players use gw2efficiency that are still actually playing instead of taking a break or moved on to other games. For example I have an efficiency account for an alt account that isn't anywhere near Grothmar even and I play story in order. But I may never get to it on that account.

    Another issue is what percentage of the playerbase uses gw2efficiency and what percentage of those are harder core players to begin with. How many casuals that would never raid or finish harder strike missions would do meta but not make an account on a site. Who's more likeliy to sign up on a site? Casuals or hard core players? It's just not a useful metric either way. You know who does have metrics? Anet. And what those metrics tell them will be a bit more useful, even though those too can be misleading.

    The 50k number is from those who finished the first story instance, unlocking the bjora marches errant achievement. I am not counting the the 220k total accounts registered. Your alt account would not be counted because it has not it has done the first story instance. Using this metric filters out inactive accounts. Now this number might be low balling this situation, you dont need to do the first story instance to enter the zone. 59k accounts finished silenced,
    Again, seeing how 40% of the account have not finished the 2 hour story, it is safe to assume casual do make up part of the sample. Now is it perfect, heck no. Only anet has more accurate data, but it is the best we players have. But they do line up with current events. 74k accounts started bound by blood, only 59k started episode 1, a 21% drop. Very comparable with the 25% income drop over the same quarter. If you want, you can data dive to see if income and player engagement has a correlation, but as a microtransactions game, my guts tells me it exist.

  • Zaklex.6308Zaklex.6308 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    For all of those that don't like having to do strike mission achievements for the meta: have you actually done strikes and put as much effort into them as you would have done for any story or open world achievement? I have a suspicion that a lot of those that don't like it probably have never actually done strikes or at least put much effort into it.

    I have a problem with that statement for the following reasons, most story and open world achievements don't require much effort, a lot, and I do mean a lot of them happen organically while you play the game "normally". I play for entertainment purposes, to have fun, if I wanted to put effort into something it would be a single player game and not an MMO, once I have to exert effort to achieve something in this game then I just leave what ever it is alone. Effort does not equal entertainment, at least for me, some it does, most I would say it doesn't. FYI, I did the Grothmar strike once, and only once, that was enough and that's the easy one, never have bothered with the other and probably won't, don't really care.

    Yes...no...maybe...what do you want, can't you see I'm busy saving the world...AGAIN!

  • @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    It 100% is. If it was as he is saying and people didn't do raids because they just don't like raids, and NOT because they feel they aren't good enough for raids, they WOULDN'T be asking for easier raids. It's really not that hard to understand.

    There are both kinds of players. The ones who don't want to raid are not the people asking for easier raids. They're the ones saying raids are bad for the game, that they should never have been introduced, and/or that ANet should not tie open world and raid-lite content together for rewards purposes.

    Each time a new poster has started a thread about easier raids, the same posters jump in to inflate the thread. A few new voices (who usually post once, then disappear) will sometimes chime in. At least half of the posts are arguments against easier raids. The "huge" threads about easy raids are 90% back and forth arguments by the same people -- and those same arguments appear in all of those threads.

    If you study what's being said, also, most of the demand for easier raids is about easier access to raid rewards. This could mean that posters demanding easier raids may not actually want to up their game. Thus, strikes may be training wheels content, they are not what at least some of the players who post in those threads ask for.

    Yes, but I wholeheartedly agreed from the begining that meta achievements should NOT be tied to strikes. I just dared make the opinion that something should encourage players to try to increase their skill level in the game beyond auto attacking in a mix of bad gear with random traits and pointed out that there's a jump in difficulty from open world boss to raid boss. If the argument is that challenging content should not exist in the game because someone might not be able to do it, well that's just crazy.

    Well, I'm certainly not making that argument. In fact, I have no problem with players arguing for more hard(er) content, more raids, or that ANet should encourage players to improve. I have no issue with players defending the idea that raid rewards should not be diluted by making them available in easier content. Likewise, I have no trouble with the idea that rewards for specialized instanced PvE content be kept separate from rewards for GW2 Living World meta rewards. Something for everyone is a healthier practice than using existing reward structures to force participation because ANet cannot figure out how to make content desirable for its own sake.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:
    It 100% is. If it was as he is saying and people didn't do raids because they just don't like raids, and NOT because they feel they aren't good enough for raids, they WOULDN'T be asking for easier raids. It's really not that hard to understand.

    Ah, but you are not noticing that difficulty of raids impacts a ton of other things, and that some of the players may be okay with difficulty, but not with the consequences that increased difficulty in 10-man content bring. Or that when players are not okay with difficulty, it doesn't mean it's because they think it's beyond their ability. Perhaps they just think that this level of difficulty is not fun.

    It's not that players that don't raid think they are not good enough for raids. It's that they think that raid are not good enough for them. But easy mode raids might be.

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    But I do remember a lot of people asking in those eaasy raid mode thread saying they're interested in seeing the story. That is, you've locked some lore and story behind this door. How do you know that wanting easy mode raids has more to two with diffiuclty and not more to do with organization challeges like finding tanks/healers or changing builds or building new armor sets, or getting ascended gear. Whether you need a full set or not, a lot of people believe you need ascended gear to raid. Other games have sort of taught that and it's ingrained in the thought process of a lot of people.

    I want easy mode raids too, so I can take a bunch of casuals that are hard to organize (and that's the key for me, not wanting to herd cats). They want to see the content not play a different game than I bought. Me too.

    Well, yeah, precisely. The people that ask for raids are not interested in a way to do current raids. They are interested in a version of raids that would suit them. That version generally gets dubbed as "easy mode". It doesn't actually need to be individually easier - it's generally about not needing the preparation phase (golem training, group training - and group gathering in general). Someone may be good enough to run raids at their current difficulty level, but still want easy mode ones, because they do not want to bother with making certain other players in the group are up to the same standart. Or they do not want to wait till a person with a specific role becomes available. They might just want to have fun in the content without worrying about things that players that go raiding to be challenged think are required.

    Basically, people asking for easy verion of raids are people that do not like the current version, and think that (for many reasons, difficulty being one of them) easy version would be more to their liking.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @Zaklex.6308 said:
    I have a problem with that statement for the following reasons, most story and open world achievements don't require much effort, a lot, and I do mean a lot of them happen organically while you play the game "normally". I play for entertainment purposes, to have fun, if I wanted to put effort into something it would be a single player game and not an MMO, once I have to exert effort to achieve something in this game then I just leave what ever it is alone. Effort does not equal entertainment, at least for me, some it does, most I would say it doesn't. FYI, I did the Grothmar strike once, and only once, that was enough and that's the easy one, never have bothered with the other and probably won't, don't really care.

    And in what way should the developers reward full meta achievements on every map for those who don't care about contents?

    I respect that any player can play their MMO anyway they want, but demand how the game should fully reward players for denying content is another thing. Achievement can be voluntarily, but shouldn't be free gives in the first place. Strike missions isn't raid, doesn't demand raid experience, and still ties perfectly into PvE category.

  • @Dante.1763 said:

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:
    Some people hate PVP. PVP exists in this game. Those people can feel "left out" because they feel its "off limits" to them. Do you want them to get rid of PVP? WvW exists in this game. Some people hate WvW. Do you want them to remove WvW from the game? Some people absolutely loath jumping puzzles. By your logic jumping puzzles should be removed from the game because someone who can't do jumping puzzles might feel "left out" of that area of the game. Raids exist, its part of the game. You can either accept that its part of the game like everyone who doesn't enjoy pvp accepts its part of the game, like people who don't enjoy wvw accepts it part of the game, and people who hate jumping puzzles accept they're part of the game, or you can continue to crusade tirelessly against the evil raids that have made you feel left out and tell everyone about how your opinion is the correct one because you personally don't enjoy them. Either way its pretty clear arenanet isn't making design choices around a single person's preferences.

    or..or they dont do those modes, like i dont.

    The problem i have with this, is the meta is under the "Story" category. The strikes are not part of the story, are some of the bosses -in- the story? Yes, but are the strikes part of the story? No. The story does not require 10 people to do, so neither should the story meta(IMO)

    Not asking for the achievements to get removed from the game, just to be able to obtain the meta in the future without doing strikes, hell they can give strikes -more- achievements, give them their own meta, i dont care if they end up having a huge chunk of AP or rewards i wont be able to obtain, but let me be able to get the story achievement doing story stuff. Sometimes anet does make mistakes. Stating an opinion or what one think isnt a bad thing, doing it as a fact is.

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:
    But the 100 response long pages of requests for easy mode raids that constantly gets brought up is direct evidence against what you're saying.

    It's not. It's at best an evidence, that people want easy mode raids. Not normal/hard mode ones.
    The people that simply want better access/less limitations towards raids, are the people that ask for automatic queuing system or similar stuff. Frankly, don't remember a lot of those threads.

    It 100% is. If it was as he is saying and people didn't do raids because they just don't like raids, and NOT because they feel they aren't good enough for raids, they WOULDN'T be asking for easier raids. It's really not that hard to understand.

    There are both kinds of players. The ones who don't want to raid are not the people asking for easier raids. They're the ones saying raids are bad for the game, that they should never have been introduced, and/or that ANet should not tie open world and raid-lite content together for rewards purposes.

    Each time a new poster has started a thread about easier raids, the same posters jump in to inflate the thread. A few new voices (who usually post once, then disappear) will sometimes chime in. At least half of the posts are arguments against easier raids. The "huge" threads about easy raids are 90% back and forth arguments by the same people -- and those same arguments appear in all of those threads.

    I'm afraid Astral has a point. If you study what's being said, most of the demand for easier raids is about easier access to raid rewards. This could mean that posters demanding easier raids may not actually want to up their game. Thus, strikes may be training wheels content, but they are not what at least some of the players who post in those threads ask for.

    Pretty much yes, i made the mistake of posting in one of those threads once, i wont ever do that again.

    I don't know that 'being part of the story' is a requirement for Meta Achievements. Pretty sure there are Jumping Puzzles that are part of Metas, or needed for Mastery Points that aren't 'part of the story'. Just like the Light Puzzles?

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭
    edited February 17, 2020

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Because we've never had to do ten man content to get a meta ever. In what way would you open a restaurant that only servers vegetarian dishs and then start serving meat, and then asking us to accept it, because it's on the menu?

    Because achievements are never meant to be food served on a silver platter in the first place, they are voluntary challenges.

    GW2 Living World meta achievements had used to include challenging combat trials (if any players old enough to remember what doing all these LWS2 achievements before ANY expansions feels like), Scarlet wiped out more player and failed more events than we could ever encountered, and that never stopped players from overflowing maps. They got tuned down so much since PoF that everything turns into a mindless grind, but that doesn't meant it's supposed to be the tradition.

    Let's be honest, your statement about the whole thing isn't about meat and vegetables. Closed instance or not, squad based boss fights isn't anything new even for map grinders. It's the added difficulty of combat in strike missions that scared you so much that you would go so far to call quit, instead of progress what you are missing.

    That doesn't make you represent the majority of players.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭
    edited February 17, 2020

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Well I probably do represent the majority of players, since the devs said he average player does 500% less damage than a good player. That would probably make me the majority.

    Again the problem is the change, not the challenge. You're so used to the same argument you're not actually listening to mine. This isn't about, and has never been about difficulty, not for me anyway.

    Zone metas really started with HoT. Throughout Season 3 and Season 4, we never had to group for instanced content to do a zone meta. Now that's changing and it's a change people will resent, partially because it's a change. You want to add a multiplayer instanced content meta, go ahead. But to change an existing meta, specifically for the purpose of promoting an area of the game that doesnt' have the support of the fan base to being with is going to kitten people off.

    It absolutely doesn't matter what the word achievement means in the English language. In this game, we've had metas that give people options to complete them. It doesn't matter if any one group of people think it's okay to have stuff that most people won't beat as part of a zone meta, generally some of the easiest metas in the game. WHat matters is disenfranchsing what is likely a fairly large segment of the playerbase.

    I don't care about the difficulty. I care about being prepared for raids I'm never going to be into, and don't care about and didn't want in the game in the first place. You may think it's okay. I'm almost 100% certain more people dislike raids than raid.

    A good player generally average around 25k dps, since you have played for least 5 years, yet still lingers around 5k, then yes, you do have difficulty with battles mechanics.

    And no, that still don't represent yourself as the majority of players, I'm in multiple casual guilds, and most don't cares about full meta achievements or the shiver emotes, it's the map chat, currency, skin, minis and loots worth of gold they want. Ask around the map, how many people has fully unlocked Cosair skins of the past?

    The Change is about adding Strike Mission into the list, and Strike Mission DO represent challenge. As said, squad based boss fights isn't uncommon among map contents, the difference on a 10 man instance is simply the added difficulty and transparency of personal performance. If you really don't care, then there wouldn't be this thread. In reality, many casual pugs we played with truly don't care, they simply wants to get this over and done with, we cleared the boss all the same.

    It's simply a matter of denial and avoidance.
    Which is a common casual mentality: people deny contents simply so they could avoid to be judged by other players, especially when they under-perform by a vast degree. No multiplayer games could thrive in this mentality.

  • Fundor.2098Fundor.2098 Member ✭✭✭

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    I know a whole lot of people who have no interest in raids, having raided in other games. None. Zero. Burned out on raids. Came here to get away from raids. Relaxing, not min/maxing, as one guy put it. You can say I'm wrong because there's a thread on the forums that asks for easy mode raids, but probably half the people in that thread were against it.

    But the 100 response long pages of requests for easy mode raids that constantly gets brought up is direct evidence against what you're saying. Saying "I know people" is literally just anecdotal evidence. Also the fact that you think you NEED to download a dps meter and that you NEED to copy a meta build from a top tier raiding website also shows that you're out of touch with what it takes to raid. I don't have a dps meter and you just need to have slightly more than a basic grasp of mmo mechanics and build synergy to raid, and again, people who literally just press 1 and down world bosses in a mix of random gear with random traits don't have this because they've never had to. These are the same people that complain that story mode is too hard when most people can can sleepwalk through story mode.

    Edit: Heres a quote from @Fundor.2098 I just found in another thread about the whispers of jormag strike. He seems to be exactly the type of person you're saying doesn't exist.

    "Is it truly so difficult, it's comparable to raids?
    I've never done raids before (well, after a couple of epic failures after Vale Guardian was added to the game), but I'm quite interested in them nevertheless. Always expected them to be far out of my skill level though, and finding a group to learn them with has been too much of a hassle thanks to my irregular gaming times. Let me tell you, a three-shift work and a long-distance relationship make it impossible to attend literally anything regularly.
    But after figuring out the strategy for the Whisper, the groups I've attended haven't failed a single run, despite there having been people who were new to it. A simple explanation of what is to come and what to keep an eye for, making sure at least a portion of the people are playing with team support focused builds, and everything goes smoothly!

    Are the Strike Missions actually doing their job? If so, I'm even more grateful for them, than I was before!

    Anyhow, your point numer 5, about a strike mission currency, the like of raid currencies, was a very good one."

    Yap, we exist!
    I won't even pretend having read the whole thread through, but there are some interesting points here!
    I too have voiced my support for easy mode raids in the past, not because of rewards, but for easier access to learning the mechanics of the different raid bosses first hand, and as an avid lore nerd, to experience the lore behind them. If it were up to me, "easy mode raids" could very well be completely rewardless, but still very much needed and beneficial.

    That said, and coming back to the original topic of the thread, I'm not against including Strike Mission achievements into the meta achievement list. It's a great way to encourage people to step into a game mode, that's actually beneficial for their gameplay in the long run. And it's seriously not like the meta achievement list even requires the completition of each and every last one of the Strike Mission achievements.

    The stories we love best do live in us forever. - J.K. Rowling

  • Zok.4956Zok.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2020

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Do you know what I was told when I bought this game? No holy trinity. No need for a healer. No need to wait to have fun, you can have fun right now. Five wariors can do a dungeon. Five mesmers. Five eles. Five necros. That's what I was sold on. Don't wait to have fun, do it now. And in raids it's back to needed a healer and a tank which frankly is not the game I bought. It was advertised as a different game.

    You're assuming wanting an easier raid means we're not good enough. In my case at least, wanting an easier raid is to see the story, without having to go along with the other nonsense raids bring to the game without breaking my own game. I'd rather have not had raids here at all, but once they were here I don't want to be excluded from an area, just because I want to play the game I purchased, that was advertised a certain way. If I wanted a trinity I'd be playing WoW or Final Fantasy XIV. I've always hated the trinity long before Guild Wars 2. Hence, an easy mode raid request. Nothing to do with not good enough...for me. Having to change the way I play to play content I didn't want to play in the first place or be locked out of story? Bad design on Anet's part.

    I agree, that it is a bad design choice on Anet's part. it is not the first, and it will not be the last.

    I think the underlaying bad design choice is the skill system. Let me explain this with some examples: When I startet as a new player, I played engi exclusively with the flame-thrower. Because it was fun and I play a game only if it is fun. I did not care about effectiveness or DPS. I played the weapon I had fun with. This was so much different than other games (at least for me) , how the weapons feel. And in the several years after that I have seen (and talked to) to a lot of rangers. 80% I talked to (friends, guild, randoms) choose the pets, they like the most, but not because they are most efficient. I can go on with staff-eles that play staff because they feel this is the appropriate weapen for an ele. etc. etc.

    In the openworld and the personal story it doesn't matter how much DPS a player is doing. Everyone can have fun.

    The bad design-choice that Anet made is: The weapon that is fun is not always the most efficient weapon. This results in, for example in raids, that some classes/weapons/etc. are not good options, they are not viable. A player can (often) not play the i.e. weapon he likes, but has to play what is required for the group to fill in a role. So Anet gave first a lot of choices to players and then removed a lot of them if they want to play the content. Because they wanted to remove the "classic" holy-trinity and replaced it with something else, that is kind of worse (we do not have in GW2 raids the classical holy-trinity, its something else, some call it a cluster-kitten).

    So the core of the friction between "I play what I want" and "You should play what the group needs / what is more efficient" is not stupid players, but a bad design choice on Anet's part when mixing those player types together.

    Of course it is not black and white and players can move from one group to the other. When my guild started with a raid group long time ago, I looked up what viable roles could be fun to play and then I made that character raid-ready, to be most efficient, and raiding became fun too with the right people.

    I do not believe, that the core of the weapons and skill system will be changed (changing some numbers does not count). So Anet should reduce the friction between this different player types (i.e. players that want to play more efficient, players that want to use the pet/weapon that is the most fun, etc. etc.) and should give each of them the content they like/want, without mixing the content too much between them.

    And when Anet wants to motivate players of one type to try out another type, they should not push/force them with putting content of one type into the achievements/ requirements of another type. Anet already learned this lesson long time ago, when they, for example, removed the WvW-maps from PvE-world-completion (yes, I know, there is still the Gift of Battle, but that is a different story) and they also made the PvP/WvW reward tracks where you can get PvE items without doing PvE.

    I think it is good that Anet wants to motivate players to try out strike-missions and raids. But forcing players to do strike-missions, if they want the story-meta-achievements, is a bad design choice on Anet's part. This does increase the friction between the different player types/groups. This thread (and the others about the same topic) is proof for that.

    EDIT: A better way would be: Give players a choice for the story-meta-achievements and make the strike-mission achievements optional, easy and a little bit more convenient. Then players can choose if they want to do "some fast/easy strike-mission achievements" or if they want to take the longer tour without the strike-mission-achievments.

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  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    You know who does have metrics? Anet. And what those metrics tell them will be a bit more useful, even though those too can be misleading.

    And their metrics "told them" to add the Strike Mission achievements to the meta. Using the "Anet has the data" argument selectively when it fits ones argument isn't a very good idea.

    That said I haven't even started the meta of Shadow in the Ice but I see there are 45 available achievements and you need 37 to complete the meta? That leaves 8 achievements as "extra"? 12 achievements are from Strike Missions, meaning a player to complete the meta requires 4 Strike Mission achievements.

    I'm gonna state the "easy mode ones":
    Reflections in the Ice: defeat your frozen clone. The Whisper of Jormag is a very easy boss for any 10-man group (or even with less people) at the start but it gets significantly harder as the fight progresses. Yet, to get this achievement you must reach 75% of the boss health and during the first 25% he doesn't use any of his party wipe attacks. There is very little difference between the Whisper of Jormag and many story bosses, so getting this achievement is essentially a freebie for -almost- everyone. Even a bad or low-man team can bring him to 75%, get the achievement, get out. There is more than enough time to do so.

    High Shaman, High Stakes, Fraenir Frolic, Elemental Elegy: these 3 are also relatively easy because the Fraenir of Jormag Strike Mission is probably the easiest Strike Mission after the Grothmar one. This is the entry level mission that requires zero planning and zero roles, meaning it's perfectly doable WITHOUT creating a squad first, just walk through the portal, get some random team, finish it. All the achievements are personal too.

    I cannot commend on the Voice and Claw achievements because I frankly haven't done that mission yet. There are probably easy ones there too?

    The Boneskinner and the rest of the Whisper of Jormag achievements can be safely skipped (other than Reflections in the Ice)

    It's mostly an incentive to play the Strike Missions, at least their PUBLIC version, no need to group up, no need to make a squad, no need to open up the LFG to finish the meta. It's a "try this, if you like it you will play it, if you don't, get your easy achie and don't come back.". If they required you to finish the harder missions then I'd be mad too, those have no reason to be in the requirements for the meta.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    You know who does have metrics? Anet. And what those metrics tell them will be a bit more useful, even though those too can be misleading.

    And their metrics "told them" to add the Strike Mission achievements to the meta. Using the "Anet has the data" argument selectively when it fits ones argument isn't a very good idea.

    That said I haven't even started the meta of Shadow in the Ice but I see there are 45 available achievements and you need 37 to complete the meta? That leaves 8 achievements as "extra"? 12 achievements are from Strike Missions, meaning a player to complete the meta requires 4 Strike Mission achievements.

    I'm gonna state the "easy mode ones":
    Reflections in the Ice: defeat your frozen clone. The Whisper of Jormag is a very easy boss for any 10-man group (or even with less people) at the start but it gets significantly harder as the fight progresses. Yet, to get this achievement you must reach 75% of the boss health and during the first 25% he doesn't use any of his party wipe attacks. There is very little difference between the Whisper of Jormag and many story bosses, so getting this achievement is essentially a freebie for -almost- everyone. Even a bad or low-man team can bring him to 75%, get the achievement, get out. There is more than enough time to do so.

    High Shaman, High Stakes, Fraenir Frolic, Elemental Elegy: these 3 are also relatively easy because the Fraenir of Jormag Strike Mission is probably the easiest Strike Mission after the Grothmar one. This is the entry level mission that requires zero planning and zero roles, meaning it's perfectly doable WITHOUT creating a squad first, just walk through the portal, get some random team, finish it. All the achievements are personal too.

    I cannot commend on the Voice and Claw achievements because I frankly haven't done that mission yet. There are probably easy ones there too?

    The Boneskinner and the rest of the Whisper of Jormag achievements can be safely skipped (other than Reflections in the Ice)

    It's mostly an incentive to play the Strike Missions, at least their PUBLIC version, no need to group up, no need to make a squad, no need to open up the LFG to finish the meta. It's a "try this, if you like it you will play it, if you don't, get your easy achie and don't come back.". If they required you to finish the harder missions then I'd be mad too, those have no reason to be in the requirements for the meta.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    You know who does have metrics? Anet. And what those metrics tell them will be a bit more useful, even though those too can be misleading.

    And their metrics "told them" to add the Strike Mission achievements to the meta. Using the "Anet has the data" argument selectively when it fits ones argument isn't a very good idea.

    That said I haven't even started the meta of Shadow in the Ice but I see there are 45 available achievements and you need 37 to complete the meta? That leaves 8 achievements as "extra"? 12 achievements are from Strike Missions, meaning a player to complete the meta requires 4 Strike Mission achievements.

    I'm gonna state the "easy mode ones":
    Reflections in the Ice: defeat your frozen clone. The Whisper of Jormag is a very easy boss for any 10-man group (or even with less people) at the start but it gets significantly harder as the fight progresses. Yet, to get this achievement you must reach 75% of the boss health and during the first 25% he doesn't use any of his party wipe attacks. There is very little difference between the Whisper of Jormag and many story bosses, so getting this achievement is essentially a freebie for -almost- everyone. Even a bad or low-man team can bring him to 75%, get the achievement, get out. There is more than enough time to do so.

    High Shaman, High Stakes, Fraenir Frolic, Elemental Elegy: these 3 are also relatively easy because the Fraenir of Jormag Strike Mission is probably the easiest Strike Mission after the Grothmar one. This is the entry level mission that requires zero planning and zero roles, meaning it's perfectly doable WITHOUT creating a squad first, just walk through the portal, get some random team, finish it. All the achievements are personal too.

    I cannot commend on the Voice and Claw achievements because I frankly haven't done that mission yet. There are probably easy ones there too?

    The Boneskinner and the rest of the Whisper of Jormag achievements can be safely skipped (other than Reflections in the Ice)

    It's mostly an incentive to play the Strike Missions, at least their PUBLIC version, no need to group up, no need to make a squad, no need to open up the LFG to finish the meta. It's a "try this, if you like it you will play it, if you don't, get your easy achie and don't come back.". If they required you to finish the harder missions then I'd be mad too, those have no reason to be in the requirements for the meta.

    We have no idea whether that decision was based on metrics or trying something because they had no idea how it would go. They had certain assumptiions they made, and it wasn't necessarily based on metrics or solely on metrics. And if their metrics show it's not working they won't do it again. This is what I believe happend with migraine.

  • Manasa Devi.7958Manasa Devi.7958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    One thing that's weird about the situation is that most of these controversial strike-based achievements that they made part of the chapter 2 meta, are actually based on chapter 1 content. Consistency isn't the strong point of this release.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    We have no idea whether that decision was based on metrics or trying something because they had no idea how it would go. They had certain assumptiions they made, and it wasn't necessarily based on metrics or solely on metrics. And if their metrics show it's not working they won't do it again. This is what I believe happend with migraine.

    The same thing can be said about every other situation where "Anet has the data".

    By the way, I gave you a list of freebie Strike achievements to do and complete the meta. They don't even require grouping up with other people as Strikes have a public/open version. Simply walk through the portal as you'd do with any open world event, get the achievements, profit. And for some players, maybe not you, they might enjoy the experience too, which is a huge plus for the Strike missions.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2020

    Yes but they included the easy ones as well as the hard ones. They are no different to an open world boss fight or a bounty just with a wall around them. They didn’t include must do the hard ones. So unless they add a load of varying difficulties again, no slippery slope.

    It’s an mmo and it brings together players from various content and various communities and metas are perfectly set up to do that

    This isn’t new, it isn’t a oroblem that I can see, if anything it is a positive and for players like me and some others, it has worked

    There are clearly differences of opinion but I think everyone reasserting the same arguments over and over is just causing this thread the cycle around now without moving forward.

    No one represents a majority, there is no single casual community like players think and no one is “right” here. Perhaps it is time to let others have their say or let the thread run its course because repeating ad infininum is prob hurting the cause more than anything since it misrepresents how many people actually care about the issue

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .