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Including Strike Mission Achievements as a Required Part of the Zone Meta

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  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    The 100s of page long threads about easy mode raids ...

    In all of those threads, those opposed to easy mode raids point out that its only a few posters who keep asking for the "easy mode" raids. Having read through most of them, it certainly looked that way to me, also. The length of those threads also owes a lot more to dozens of back-and-forth posts by two opposed contributors than it does to any groundswell of demand. I'm not sure the length of those threads is a good argument for a sufficient demand for easier raid-like content to warrant strikes. It looks more like every once in a whole someone new comes along and makes the request, then the usual suspects jump in on both sides of the discussion.

    as well as the developer approach to this issue would suggest you are incorrect in your assumption, which is mostly based on your personal subjective experience. That's all I am saying.

    ANet offering strikes as a bridge to raids could suggest that there are a significant number of players who want to raid but are put off by the difficulty jump. However, as has been pointed out many times in the "easy raid" threads, there is already an easier-to-harder difficulty curve in the existing raids. However, that has not been sufficient to bridge the gap. Releasing easier raid encounters with no real rewards as "strike missions" may do so, or it may not. I tend not to think so, but maybe I'll be wrong.

    Either way, it's a mistake to assume that because ANet has more data than us, they know what they're doing. There is too much history of ANet missteps over too many things, and of them misreading the psychological factors behind what players want for me to buy that. Using strikes as a bridge to raids seems more to me like a last-ditch pie-in-the-sky attempt to be seen to be doing something to suggest that there will be more raids in future. ANet could well be grasping at straws to try to offer some hope to hardcore players in the wake of the lengthy periods between raid wings and the "template" fiasco rather than betting on a sure thing.

    I think the truth is that there are both players who want to raid who need training wheels, and those who don't raid because they don't want to raid. I think what Vayne is suggesting is that he does not raid not because of difficulty but because he doesn't like that type of content, and that there are likely more players like him -- not that all players who don't want to raid could if they want to. His reaction is likely a response to the several comments that he -- to put it crudely -- "git gud."

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    But if you want to raise the bar, in my opinion, this isn't the way to do it. It's long been a problem with the nature of open world PvE being so casual in this game. You change the game you lose the playerbase. It's just logic.

    It isn't logic, it is just denial.
    And developers has been feeding this denial by making map events brainlessly simple even more players left because there is no thrills even fighting meta bosses.
    Years back, we had even more players online when half the world bosses and have medium to high chances of failure.

    Besides, I don't see the majority of casual player cares about finishing map meta achievements either, strike mission or not. They play to grind, instead to achieve.

    The Arah story mode was changed to solo mode because it takes too long and too little reward for players who have done this story to replay, not because it was too hard.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    I know a whole lot of people who have no interest in raids, having raided in other games. None. Zero. Burned out on raids. Came here to get away from raids. Relaxing, not min/maxing, as one guy put it. You can say I'm wrong because there's a thread on the forums that asks for easy mode raids, but probably half the people in that thread were against it.

    But the 100 response long pages of requests for easy mode raids that constantly gets brought up is direct evidence against what you're saying.

    It's not. It's at best an evidence, that people want easy mode raids. Not normal/hard mode ones.
    The people that simply want better access/less limitations towards raids, are the people that ask for automatic queuing system or similar stuff. Frankly, don't remember a lot of those threads.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • sevenDEADLY.5281sevenDEADLY.5281 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:
    But the 100 response long pages of requests for easy mode raids that constantly gets brought up is direct evidence against what you're saying.

    It's not. It's at best an evidence, that people want easy mode raids. Not normal/hard mode ones.
    The people that simply want better access/less limitations towards raids, are the people that ask for automatic queuing system or similar stuff. Frankly, don't remember a lot of those threads.

    It 100% is. If it was as he is saying and people didn't do raids because they just don't like raids, and NOT because they feel they aren't good enough for raids, they WOULDN'T be asking for easier raids. It's really not that hard to understand.

  • sevenDEADLY.5281sevenDEADLY.5281 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    Some people hate PVP. PVP exists in this game. Those people can feel "left out" because they feel its "off limits" to them. Do you want them to get rid of PVP? WvW exists in this game. Some people hate WvW. Do you want them to remove WvW from the game? Some people absolutely loath jumping puzzles. By your logic jumping puzzles should be removed from the game because someone who can't do jumping puzzles might feel "left out" of that area of the game. Raids exist, its part of the game. You can either accept that its part of the game like everyone who doesn't enjoy pvp accepts its part of the game, like people who don't enjoy wvw accepts it part of the game, and people who hate jumping puzzles accept they're part of the game, or you can continue to crusade tirelessly against the evil raids that have made you feel left out and tell everyone about how your opinion is the correct one because you personally don't enjoy them. Either way its pretty clear arenanet isn't making design choices around a single person's preferences.

  • IndigoSundown.5419IndigoSundown.5419 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:
    But the 100 response long pages of requests for easy mode raids that constantly gets brought up is direct evidence against what you're saying.

    It's not. It's at best an evidence, that people want easy mode raids. Not normal/hard mode ones.
    The people that simply want better access/less limitations towards raids, are the people that ask for automatic queuing system or similar stuff. Frankly, don't remember a lot of those threads.

    It 100% is. If it was as he is saying and people didn't do raids because they just don't like raids, and NOT because they feel they aren't good enough for raids, they WOULDN'T be asking for easier raids. It's really not that hard to understand.

    There are both kinds of players. The ones who don't want to raid are not the people asking for easier raids. They're the ones saying raids are bad for the game, that they should never have been introduced, and/or that ANet should not tie open world and raid-lite content together for rewards purposes.

    Each time a new poster has started a thread about easier raids, the same posters jump in to inflate the thread. A few new voices (who usually post once, then disappear) will sometimes chime in. At least half of the posts are arguments against easier raids. The "huge" threads about easy raids are 90% back and forth arguments by the same people -- and those same arguments appear in all of those threads.

    I'm afraid Astral has a point. If you study what's being said, most of the demand for easier raids is about easier access to raid rewards. This could mean that posters demanding easier raids may not actually want to up their game. Thus, strikes may be training wheels content, but they are not what at least some of the players who post in those threads ask for.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • @Vayne.8563 said:

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:
    Some people hate PVP. PVP exists in this game. Those people can feel "left out" because they feel its "off limits" to them. Do you want them to get rid of PVP? WvW exists in this game. Some people hate WvW. Do you want them to remove WvW from the game? Some people absolutely loath jumping puzzles. By your logic jumping puzzles should be removed from the game because someone who can't do jumping puzzles might feel "left out" of that area of the game. Raids exist, its part of the game. You can either accept that its part of the game like everyone who doesn't enjoy pvp accepts its part of the game, like people who don't enjoy wvw accepts it part of the game, and people who hate jumping puzzles accept they're part of the game, or you can continue to crusade tirelessly against the evil raids that have made you feel left out and tell everyone about how your opinion is the correct one because you personally don't enjoy them.

    PvP existed from launch. Raids didn't exist until 3.5 years after launch. If you don't see a difference between something the game was advertised with that I new would be there when I bought and started supporting the game by choice, I'm not sure whatt to tell you. Do you think people who don't want to raid, didn't come to the forums and fight against raids being introduced into the game in the first place? Because I remember those posts.

    PvP has always been there and I accept it because I paid for a game that has it. Do you know what I didn't pay for? A game that requires a healer and a tank. A game that makes you jump through hoops to get a dungeon group together, because any five people could go in. The way the game was advertised.

    Like it or not, raids changed the game from what was advertised into something that was not. And to a lot of peope that felt like betrayal. The same can't be said for PvP.

    MMOs change. Ask WoW players if its the same today as it was at launch. It's not my fault, or anyone else's fault that you've been arguing with tirelessly, that you can't understand that fact.

  • sevenDEADLY.5281sevenDEADLY.5281 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    It 100% is. If it was as he is saying and people didn't do raids because they just don't like raids, and NOT because they feel they aren't good enough for raids, they WOULDN'T be asking for easier raids. It's really not that hard to understand.

    There are both kinds of players. The ones who don't want to raid are not the people asking for easier raids. They're the ones saying raids are bad for the game, that they should never have been introduced, and/or that ANet should not tie open world and raid-lite content together for rewards purposes.

    Each time a new poster has started a thread about easier raids, the same posters jump in to inflate the thread. A few new voices (who usually post once, then disappear) will sometimes chime in. At least half of the posts are arguments against easier raids. The "huge" threads about easy raids are 90% back and forth arguments by the same people -- and those same arguments appear in all of those threads.

    If you study what's being said, also, most of the demand for easier raids is about easier access to raid rewards. This could mean that posters demanding easier raids may not actually want to up their game. Thus, strikes may be training wheels content, they are not what at least some of the players who post in those threads ask for.

    Yes, but I wholeheartedly agreed from the begining that meta achievements should NOT be tied to strikes. I just dared make the opinion that something should encourage players to try to increase their skill level in the game beyond auto attacking in a mix of bad gear with random traits and pointed out that there's a jump in difficulty from open world boss to raid boss. If the argument is that challenging content should not exist in the game because someone might not be able to do it, well that's just crazy.

  • sevenDEADLY.5281sevenDEADLY.5281 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @Dante.1763 said:

    or..or they dont do those modes, like i dont.

    The problem i have with this, is the meta is under the "Story" category. The strikes are not part of the story, are some of the bosses -in- the story? Yes, but are the strikes part of the story? No. The story does not require 10 people to do, so neither should the story meta(IMO)

    If you read my initial post I already agreed strikes should not be tied to metas so I'm unclear of what our disagreement is.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    or..or they dont do those modes, like i dont.

    The problem i have with this, is the meta is under the "Story" category. The strikes are not part of the story, are some of the bosses -in- the story? Yes, but are the strikes part of the story? No. The story does not require 10 people to do, so neither should the story meta(IMO)

    If you read my initial post I already agreed strikes should not be tied to metas so I'm unclear of what our disagreement is.

    I must have missed that post, this thread has gotten decently large! Sorry~

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Shadowmoon.7986 said:

    @Pirogen.9561 said:

    @Shadowmoon.7986 said:
    And you are a vocal minority. And there is evidence to show this. Using gw2 efficiency data, of the 49653 people who started the episode, 8677 people have killed strike whisper of jormag, the boss the same difficultly as a raid boss. Compare this to people who completed all the light puzzles, 7433, jumping puzzles are a bigger barrier to the meta than strikes. If you ignore boneskinner achievements (he been bugged since the update) or the high skill "flawless" strike achievements, the lowest completed achievements are the mundane repeat events 20 times. Honestly repeating the same unrewarding event 20 is probably the biggest gate from completing the meta, not doing the strikes.

    Only 8K players did strike? Thats a very small number.

    Can we plz stop being disengenious, 8.6k out of a 50k sample size. That is almost 18%. Only 60% of the sample even finished the story. Less than 15% completed all the light puzzles. Less than 5% completed the totem events 20 times.
    So back at the statement, about 1 in 5 people is not a small number.

    In order for any of these statisics to really matter we'd need to know a couple of things we don't know. Active player count is one of them. That is how many players use gw2efficiency that are still actually playing instead of taking a break or moved on to other games. For example I have an efficiency account for an alt account that isn't anywhere near Grothmar even and I play story in order. But I may never get to it on that account.

    Another issue is what percentage of the playerbase uses gw2efficiency and what percentage of those are harder core players to begin with. How many casuals that would never raid or finish harder strike missions would do meta but not make an account on a site. Who's more likeliy to sign up on a site? Casuals or hard core players? It's just not a useful metric either way. You know who does have metrics? Anet. And what those metrics tell them will be a bit more useful, even though those too can be misleading.

    The 50k number is from those who finished the first story instance, unlocking the bjora marches errant achievement. I am not counting the the 220k total accounts registered. Your alt account would not be counted because it has not it has done the first story instance. Using this metric filters out inactive accounts. Now this number might be low balling this situation, you dont need to do the first story instance to enter the zone. 59k accounts finished silenced,
    Again, seeing how 40% of the account have not finished the 2 hour story, it is safe to assume casual do make up part of the sample. Now is it perfect, heck no. Only anet has more accurate data, but it is the best we players have. But they do line up with current events. 74k accounts started bound by blood, only 59k started episode 1, a 21% drop. Very comparable with the 25% income drop over the same quarter. If you want, you can data dive to see if income and player engagement has a correlation, but as a microtransactions game, my guts tells me it exist.

  • Zaklex.6308Zaklex.6308 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    For all of those that don't like having to do strike mission achievements for the meta: have you actually done strikes and put as much effort into them as you would have done for any story or open world achievement? I have a suspicion that a lot of those that don't like it probably have never actually done strikes or at least put much effort into it.

    I have a problem with that statement for the following reasons, most story and open world achievements don't require much effort, a lot, and I do mean a lot of them happen organically while you play the game "normally". I play for entertainment purposes, to have fun, if I wanted to put effort into something it would be a single player game and not an MMO, once I have to exert effort to achieve something in this game then I just leave what ever it is alone. Effort does not equal entertainment, at least for me, some it does, most I would say it doesn't. FYI, I did the Grothmar strike once, and only once, that was enough and that's the easy one, never have bothered with the other and probably won't, don't really care.

    Yes...no...maybe...what do you want, can't you see I'm busy saving the world...AGAIN!

  • @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    It 100% is. If it was as he is saying and people didn't do raids because they just don't like raids, and NOT because they feel they aren't good enough for raids, they WOULDN'T be asking for easier raids. It's really not that hard to understand.

    There are both kinds of players. The ones who don't want to raid are not the people asking for easier raids. They're the ones saying raids are bad for the game, that they should never have been introduced, and/or that ANet should not tie open world and raid-lite content together for rewards purposes.

    Each time a new poster has started a thread about easier raids, the same posters jump in to inflate the thread. A few new voices (who usually post once, then disappear) will sometimes chime in. At least half of the posts are arguments against easier raids. The "huge" threads about easy raids are 90% back and forth arguments by the same people -- and those same arguments appear in all of those threads.

    If you study what's being said, also, most of the demand for easier raids is about easier access to raid rewards. This could mean that posters demanding easier raids may not actually want to up their game. Thus, strikes may be training wheels content, they are not what at least some of the players who post in those threads ask for.

    Yes, but I wholeheartedly agreed from the begining that meta achievements should NOT be tied to strikes. I just dared make the opinion that something should encourage players to try to increase their skill level in the game beyond auto attacking in a mix of bad gear with random traits and pointed out that there's a jump in difficulty from open world boss to raid boss. If the argument is that challenging content should not exist in the game because someone might not be able to do it, well that's just crazy.

    Well, I'm certainly not making that argument. In fact, I have no problem with players arguing for more hard(er) content, more raids, or that ANet should encourage players to improve. I have no issue with players defending the idea that raid rewards should not be diluted by making them available in easier content. Likewise, I have no trouble with the idea that rewards for specialized instanced PvE content be kept separate from rewards for GW2 Living World meta rewards. Something for everyone is a healthier practice than using existing reward structures to force participation because ANet cannot figure out how to make content desirable for its own sake.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:
    It 100% is. If it was as he is saying and people didn't do raids because they just don't like raids, and NOT because they feel they aren't good enough for raids, they WOULDN'T be asking for easier raids. It's really not that hard to understand.

    Ah, but you are not noticing that difficulty of raids impacts a ton of other things, and that some of the players may be okay with difficulty, but not with the consequences that increased difficulty in 10-man content bring. Or that when players are not okay with difficulty, it doesn't mean it's because they think it's beyond their ability. Perhaps they just think that this level of difficulty is not fun.

    It's not that players that don't raid think they are not good enough for raids. It's that they think that raid are not good enough for them. But easy mode raids might be.

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    But I do remember a lot of people asking in those eaasy raid mode thread saying they're interested in seeing the story. That is, you've locked some lore and story behind this door. How do you know that wanting easy mode raids has more to two with diffiuclty and not more to do with organization challeges like finding tanks/healers or changing builds or building new armor sets, or getting ascended gear. Whether you need a full set or not, a lot of people believe you need ascended gear to raid. Other games have sort of taught that and it's ingrained in the thought process of a lot of people.

    I want easy mode raids too, so I can take a bunch of casuals that are hard to organize (and that's the key for me, not wanting to herd cats). They want to see the content not play a different game than I bought. Me too.

    Well, yeah, precisely. The people that ask for raids are not interested in a way to do current raids. They are interested in a version of raids that would suit them. That version generally gets dubbed as "easy mode". It doesn't actually need to be individually easier - it's generally about not needing the preparation phase (golem training, group training - and group gathering in general). Someone may be good enough to run raids at their current difficulty level, but still want easy mode ones, because they do not want to bother with making certain other players in the group are up to the same standart. Or they do not want to wait till a person with a specific role becomes available. They might just want to have fun in the content without worrying about things that players that go raiding to be challenged think are required.

    Basically, people asking for easy verion of raids are people that do not like the current version, and think that (for many reasons, difficulty being one of them) easy version would be more to their liking.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @Zaklex.6308 said:
    I have a problem with that statement for the following reasons, most story and open world achievements don't require much effort, a lot, and I do mean a lot of them happen organically while you play the game "normally". I play for entertainment purposes, to have fun, if I wanted to put effort into something it would be a single player game and not an MMO, once I have to exert effort to achieve something in this game then I just leave what ever it is alone. Effort does not equal entertainment, at least for me, some it does, most I would say it doesn't. FYI, I did the Grothmar strike once, and only once, that was enough and that's the easy one, never have bothered with the other and probably won't, don't really care.

    And in what way should the developers reward full meta achievements on every map for those who don't care about contents?

    I respect that any player can play their MMO anyway they want, but demand how the game should fully reward players for denying content is another thing. Achievement can be voluntarily, but shouldn't be free gives in the first place. Strike missions isn't raid, doesn't demand raid experience, and still ties perfectly into PvE category.

  • @Dante.1763 said:

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:
    Some people hate PVP. PVP exists in this game. Those people can feel "left out" because they feel its "off limits" to them. Do you want them to get rid of PVP? WvW exists in this game. Some people hate WvW. Do you want them to remove WvW from the game? Some people absolutely loath jumping puzzles. By your logic jumping puzzles should be removed from the game because someone who can't do jumping puzzles might feel "left out" of that area of the game. Raids exist, its part of the game. You can either accept that its part of the game like everyone who doesn't enjoy pvp accepts its part of the game, like people who don't enjoy wvw accepts it part of the game, and people who hate jumping puzzles accept they're part of the game, or you can continue to crusade tirelessly against the evil raids that have made you feel left out and tell everyone about how your opinion is the correct one because you personally don't enjoy them. Either way its pretty clear arenanet isn't making design choices around a single person's preferences.

    or..or they dont do those modes, like i dont.

    The problem i have with this, is the meta is under the "Story" category. The strikes are not part of the story, are some of the bosses -in- the story? Yes, but are the strikes part of the story? No. The story does not require 10 people to do, so neither should the story meta(IMO)

    Not asking for the achievements to get removed from the game, just to be able to obtain the meta in the future without doing strikes, hell they can give strikes -more- achievements, give them their own meta, i dont care if they end up having a huge chunk of AP or rewards i wont be able to obtain, but let me be able to get the story achievement doing story stuff. Sometimes anet does make mistakes. Stating an opinion or what one think isnt a bad thing, doing it as a fact is.

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:
    But the 100 response long pages of requests for easy mode raids that constantly gets brought up is direct evidence against what you're saying.

    It's not. It's at best an evidence, that people want easy mode raids. Not normal/hard mode ones.
    The people that simply want better access/less limitations towards raids, are the people that ask for automatic queuing system or similar stuff. Frankly, don't remember a lot of those threads.

    It 100% is. If it was as he is saying and people didn't do raids because they just don't like raids, and NOT because they feel they aren't good enough for raids, they WOULDN'T be asking for easier raids. It's really not that hard to understand.

    There are both kinds of players. The ones who don't want to raid are not the people asking for easier raids. They're the ones saying raids are bad for the game, that they should never have been introduced, and/or that ANet should not tie open world and raid-lite content together for rewards purposes.

    Each time a new poster has started a thread about easier raids, the same posters jump in to inflate the thread. A few new voices (who usually post once, then disappear) will sometimes chime in. At least half of the posts are arguments against easier raids. The "huge" threads about easy raids are 90% back and forth arguments by the same people -- and those same arguments appear in all of those threads.

    I'm afraid Astral has a point. If you study what's being said, most of the demand for easier raids is about easier access to raid rewards. This could mean that posters demanding easier raids may not actually want to up their game. Thus, strikes may be training wheels content, but they are not what at least some of the players who post in those threads ask for.

    Pretty much yes, i made the mistake of posting in one of those threads once, i wont ever do that again.

    I don't know that 'being part of the story' is a requirement for Meta Achievements. Pretty sure there are Jumping Puzzles that are part of Metas, or needed for Mastery Points that aren't 'part of the story'. Just like the Light Puzzles?

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2020

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Because we've never had to do ten man content to get a meta ever. In what way would you open a restaurant that only servers vegetarian dishs and then start serving meat, and then asking us to accept it, because it's on the menu?

    Because achievements are never meant to be food served on a silver platter in the first place, they are voluntary challenges.

    GW2 Living World meta achievements had used to include challenging combat trials (if any players old enough to remember what doing all these LWS2 achievements before ANY expansions feels like), Scarlet wiped out more player and failed more events than we could ever encountered, and that never stopped players from overflowing maps. They got tuned down so much since PoF that everything turns into a mindless grind, but that doesn't meant it's supposed to be the tradition.

    Let's be honest, your statement about the whole thing isn't about meat and vegetables. Closed instance or not, squad based boss fights isn't anything new even for map grinders. It's the added difficulty of combat in strike missions that scared you so much that you would go so far to call quit, instead of progress what you are missing.

    That doesn't make you represent the majority of players.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2020

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Well I probably do represent the majority of players, since the devs said he average player does 500% less damage than a good player. That would probably make me the majority.

    Again the problem is the change, not the challenge. You're so used to the same argument you're not actually listening to mine. This isn't about, and has never been about difficulty, not for me anyway.

    Zone metas really started with HoT. Throughout Season 3 and Season 4, we never had to group for instanced content to do a zone meta. Now that's changing and it's a change people will resent, partially because it's a change. You want to add a multiplayer instanced content meta, go ahead. But to change an existing meta, specifically for the purpose of promoting an area of the game that doesnt' have the support of the fan base to being with is going to kitten people off.

    It absolutely doesn't matter what the word achievement means in the English language. In this game, we've had metas that give people options to complete them. It doesn't matter if any one group of people think it's okay to have stuff that most people won't beat as part of a zone meta, generally some of the easiest metas in the game. WHat matters is disenfranchsing what is likely a fairly large segment of the playerbase.

    I don't care about the difficulty. I care about being prepared for raids I'm never going to be into, and don't care about and didn't want in the game in the first place. You may think it's okay. I'm almost 100% certain more people dislike raids than raid.

    A good player generally average around 25k dps, since you have played for least 5 years, yet still lingers around 5k, then yes, you do have difficulty with battles mechanics.

    And no, that still don't represent yourself as the majority of players, I'm in multiple casual guilds, and most don't cares about full meta achievements or the shiver emotes, it's the map chat, currency, skin, minis and loots worth of gold they want. Ask around the map, how many people has fully unlocked Cosair skins of the past?

    The Change is about adding Strike Mission into the list, and Strike Mission DO represent challenge. As said, squad based boss fights isn't uncommon among map contents, the difference on a 10 man instance is simply the added difficulty and transparency of personal performance. If you really don't care, then there wouldn't be this thread. In reality, many casual pugs we played with truly don't care, they simply wants to get this over and done with, we cleared the boss all the same.

    It's simply a matter of denial and avoidance.
    Which is a common casual mentality: people deny contents simply so they could avoid to be judged by other players, especially when they under-perform by a vast degree. No multiplayer games could thrive in this mentality.

  • Fundor.2098Fundor.2098 Member ✭✭✭

    @sevenDEADLY.5281 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    I know a whole lot of people who have no interest in raids, having raided in other games. None. Zero. Burned out on raids. Came here to get away from raids. Relaxing, not min/maxing, as one guy put it. You can say I'm wrong because there's a thread on the forums that asks for easy mode raids, but probably half the people in that thread were against it.

    But the 100 response long pages of requests for easy mode raids that constantly gets brought up is direct evidence against what you're saying. Saying "I know people" is literally just anecdotal evidence. Also the fact that you think you NEED to download a dps meter and that you NEED to copy a meta build from a top tier raiding website also shows that you're out of touch with what it takes to raid. I don't have a dps meter and you just need to have slightly more than a basic grasp of mmo mechanics and build synergy to raid, and again, people who literally just press 1 and down world bosses in a mix of random gear with random traits don't have this because they've never had to. These are the same people that complain that story mode is too hard when most people can can sleepwalk through story mode.

    Edit: Heres a quote from @Fundor.2098 I just found in another thread about the whispers of jormag strike. He seems to be exactly the type of person you're saying doesn't exist.

    "Is it truly so difficult, it's comparable to raids?
    I've never done raids before (well, after a couple of epic failures after Vale Guardian was added to the game), but I'm quite interested in them nevertheless. Always expected them to be far out of my skill level though, and finding a group to learn them with has been too much of a hassle thanks to my irregular gaming times. Let me tell you, a three-shift work and a long-distance relationship make it impossible to attend literally anything regularly.
    But after figuring out the strategy for the Whisper, the groups I've attended haven't failed a single run, despite there having been people who were new to it. A simple explanation of what is to come and what to keep an eye for, making sure at least a portion of the people are playing with team support focused builds, and everything goes smoothly!

    Are the Strike Missions actually doing their job? If so, I'm even more grateful for them, than I was before!

    Anyhow, your point numer 5, about a strike mission currency, the like of raid currencies, was a very good one."

    Yap, we exist!
    I won't even pretend having read the whole thread through, but there are some interesting points here!
    I too have voiced my support for easy mode raids in the past, not because of rewards, but for easier access to learning the mechanics of the different raid bosses first hand, and as an avid lore nerd, to experience the lore behind them. If it were up to me, "easy mode raids" could very well be completely rewardless, but still very much needed and beneficial.

    That said, and coming back to the original topic of the thread, I'm not against including Strike Mission achievements into the meta achievement list. It's a great way to encourage people to step into a game mode, that's actually beneficial for their gameplay in the long run. And it's seriously not like the meta achievement list even requires the completition of each and every last one of the Strike Mission achievements.

    The stories we love best do live in us forever. - J.K. Rowling

  • Zok.4956Zok.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2020

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Do you know what I was told when I bought this game? No holy trinity. No need for a healer. No need to wait to have fun, you can have fun right now. Five wariors can do a dungeon. Five mesmers. Five eles. Five necros. That's what I was sold on. Don't wait to have fun, do it now. And in raids it's back to needed a healer and a tank which frankly is not the game I bought. It was advertised as a different game.

    You're assuming wanting an easier raid means we're not good enough. In my case at least, wanting an easier raid is to see the story, without having to go along with the other nonsense raids bring to the game without breaking my own game. I'd rather have not had raids here at all, but once they were here I don't want to be excluded from an area, just because I want to play the game I purchased, that was advertised a certain way. If I wanted a trinity I'd be playing WoW or Final Fantasy XIV. I've always hated the trinity long before Guild Wars 2. Hence, an easy mode raid request. Nothing to do with not good enough...for me. Having to change the way I play to play content I didn't want to play in the first place or be locked out of story? Bad design on Anet's part.

    I agree, that it is a bad design choice on Anet's part. it is not the first, and it will not be the last.

    I think the underlaying bad design choice is the skill system. Let me explain this with some examples: When I startet as a new player, I played engi exclusively with the flame-thrower. Because it was fun and I play a game only if it is fun. I did not care about effectiveness or DPS. I played the weapon I had fun with. This was so much different than other games (at least for me) , how the weapons feel. And in the several years after that I have seen (and talked to) to a lot of rangers. 80% I talked to (friends, guild, randoms) choose the pets, they like the most, but not because they are most efficient. I can go on with staff-eles that play staff because they feel this is the appropriate weapen for an ele. etc. etc.

    In the openworld and the personal story it doesn't matter how much DPS a player is doing. Everyone can have fun.

    The bad design-choice that Anet made is: The weapon that is fun is not always the most efficient weapon. This results in, for example in raids, that some classes/weapons/etc. are not good options, they are not viable. A player can (often) not play the i.e. weapon he likes, but has to play what is required for the group to fill in a role. So Anet gave first a lot of choices to players and then removed a lot of them if they want to play the content. Because they wanted to remove the "classic" holy-trinity and replaced it with something else, that is kind of worse (we do not have in GW2 raids the classical holy-trinity, its something else, some call it a cluster-kitten).

    So the core of the friction between "I play what I want" and "You should play what the group needs / what is more efficient" is not stupid players, but a bad design choice on Anet's part when mixing those player types together.

    Of course it is not black and white and players can move from one group to the other. When my guild started with a raid group long time ago, I looked up what viable roles could be fun to play and then I made that character raid-ready, to be most efficient, and raiding became fun too with the right people.

    I do not believe, that the core of the weapons and skill system will be changed (changing some numbers does not count). So Anet should reduce the friction between this different player types (i.e. players that want to play more efficient, players that want to use the pet/weapon that is the most fun, etc. etc.) and should give each of them the content they like/want, without mixing the content too much between them.

    And when Anet wants to motivate players of one type to try out another type, they should not push/force them with putting content of one type into the achievements/ requirements of another type. Anet already learned this lesson long time ago, when they, for example, removed the WvW-maps from PvE-world-completion (yes, I know, there is still the Gift of Battle, but that is a different story) and they also made the PvP/WvW reward tracks where you can get PvE items without doing PvE.

    I think it is good that Anet wants to motivate players to try out strike-missions and raids. But forcing players to do strike-missions, if they want the story-meta-achievements, is a bad design choice on Anet's part. This does increase the friction between the different player types/groups. This thread (and the others about the same topic) is proof for that.

    EDIT: A better way would be: Give players a choice for the story-meta-achievements and make the strike-mission achievements optional, easy and a little bit more convenient. Then players can choose if they want to do "some fast/easy strike-mission achievements" or if they want to take the longer tour without the strike-mission-achievments.

    https://www.gw2gh.com/ - A GW2-Guild-Hall.
    Register and check your guild leaderboard to see who is the best in your guild and who finished achievements first.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    You know who does have metrics? Anet. And what those metrics tell them will be a bit more useful, even though those too can be misleading.

    And their metrics "told them" to add the Strike Mission achievements to the meta. Using the "Anet has the data" argument selectively when it fits ones argument isn't a very good idea.

    That said I haven't even started the meta of Shadow in the Ice but I see there are 45 available achievements and you need 37 to complete the meta? That leaves 8 achievements as "extra"? 12 achievements are from Strike Missions, meaning a player to complete the meta requires 4 Strike Mission achievements.

    I'm gonna state the "easy mode ones":
    Reflections in the Ice: defeat your frozen clone. The Whisper of Jormag is a very easy boss for any 10-man group (or even with less people) at the start but it gets significantly harder as the fight progresses. Yet, to get this achievement you must reach 75% of the boss health and during the first 25% he doesn't use any of his party wipe attacks. There is very little difference between the Whisper of Jormag and many story bosses, so getting this achievement is essentially a freebie for -almost- everyone. Even a bad or low-man team can bring him to 75%, get the achievement, get out. There is more than enough time to do so.

    High Shaman, High Stakes, Fraenir Frolic, Elemental Elegy: these 3 are also relatively easy because the Fraenir of Jormag Strike Mission is probably the easiest Strike Mission after the Grothmar one. This is the entry level mission that requires zero planning and zero roles, meaning it's perfectly doable WITHOUT creating a squad first, just walk through the portal, get some random team, finish it. All the achievements are personal too.

    I cannot commend on the Voice and Claw achievements because I frankly haven't done that mission yet. There are probably easy ones there too?

    The Boneskinner and the rest of the Whisper of Jormag achievements can be safely skipped (other than Reflections in the Ice)

    It's mostly an incentive to play the Strike Missions, at least their PUBLIC version, no need to group up, no need to make a squad, no need to open up the LFG to finish the meta. It's a "try this, if you like it you will play it, if you don't, get your easy achie and don't come back.". If they required you to finish the harder missions then I'd be mad too, those have no reason to be in the requirements for the meta.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    You know who does have metrics? Anet. And what those metrics tell them will be a bit more useful, even though those too can be misleading.

    And their metrics "told them" to add the Strike Mission achievements to the meta. Using the "Anet has the data" argument selectively when it fits ones argument isn't a very good idea.

    That said I haven't even started the meta of Shadow in the Ice but I see there are 45 available achievements and you need 37 to complete the meta? That leaves 8 achievements as "extra"? 12 achievements are from Strike Missions, meaning a player to complete the meta requires 4 Strike Mission achievements.

    I'm gonna state the "easy mode ones":
    Reflections in the Ice: defeat your frozen clone. The Whisper of Jormag is a very easy boss for any 10-man group (or even with less people) at the start but it gets significantly harder as the fight progresses. Yet, to get this achievement you must reach 75% of the boss health and during the first 25% he doesn't use any of his party wipe attacks. There is very little difference between the Whisper of Jormag and many story bosses, so getting this achievement is essentially a freebie for -almost- everyone. Even a bad or low-man team can bring him to 75%, get the achievement, get out. There is more than enough time to do so.

    High Shaman, High Stakes, Fraenir Frolic, Elemental Elegy: these 3 are also relatively easy because the Fraenir of Jormag Strike Mission is probably the easiest Strike Mission after the Grothmar one. This is the entry level mission that requires zero planning and zero roles, meaning it's perfectly doable WITHOUT creating a squad first, just walk through the portal, get some random team, finish it. All the achievements are personal too.

    I cannot commend on the Voice and Claw achievements because I frankly haven't done that mission yet. There are probably easy ones there too?

    The Boneskinner and the rest of the Whisper of Jormag achievements can be safely skipped (other than Reflections in the Ice)

    It's mostly an incentive to play the Strike Missions, at least their PUBLIC version, no need to group up, no need to make a squad, no need to open up the LFG to finish the meta. It's a "try this, if you like it you will play it, if you don't, get your easy achie and don't come back.". If they required you to finish the harder missions then I'd be mad too, those have no reason to be in the requirements for the meta.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    You know who does have metrics? Anet. And what those metrics tell them will be a bit more useful, even though those too can be misleading.

    And their metrics "told them" to add the Strike Mission achievements to the meta. Using the "Anet has the data" argument selectively when it fits ones argument isn't a very good idea.

    That said I haven't even started the meta of Shadow in the Ice but I see there are 45 available achievements and you need 37 to complete the meta? That leaves 8 achievements as "extra"? 12 achievements are from Strike Missions, meaning a player to complete the meta requires 4 Strike Mission achievements.

    I'm gonna state the "easy mode ones":
    Reflections in the Ice: defeat your frozen clone. The Whisper of Jormag is a very easy boss for any 10-man group (or even with less people) at the start but it gets significantly harder as the fight progresses. Yet, to get this achievement you must reach 75% of the boss health and during the first 25% he doesn't use any of his party wipe attacks. There is very little difference between the Whisper of Jormag and many story bosses, so getting this achievement is essentially a freebie for -almost- everyone. Even a bad or low-man team can bring him to 75%, get the achievement, get out. There is more than enough time to do so.

    High Shaman, High Stakes, Fraenir Frolic, Elemental Elegy: these 3 are also relatively easy because the Fraenir of Jormag Strike Mission is probably the easiest Strike Mission after the Grothmar one. This is the entry level mission that requires zero planning and zero roles, meaning it's perfectly doable WITHOUT creating a squad first, just walk through the portal, get some random team, finish it. All the achievements are personal too.

    I cannot commend on the Voice and Claw achievements because I frankly haven't done that mission yet. There are probably easy ones there too?

    The Boneskinner and the rest of the Whisper of Jormag achievements can be safely skipped (other than Reflections in the Ice)

    It's mostly an incentive to play the Strike Missions, at least their PUBLIC version, no need to group up, no need to make a squad, no need to open up the LFG to finish the meta. It's a "try this, if you like it you will play it, if you don't, get your easy achie and don't come back.". If they required you to finish the harder missions then I'd be mad too, those have no reason to be in the requirements for the meta.

    We have no idea whether that decision was based on metrics or trying something because they had no idea how it would go. They had certain assumptiions they made, and it wasn't necessarily based on metrics or solely on metrics. And if their metrics show it's not working they won't do it again. This is what I believe happend with migraine.

  • Manasa Devi.7958Manasa Devi.7958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    One thing that's weird about the situation is that most of these controversial strike-based achievements that they made part of the chapter 2 meta, are actually based on chapter 1 content. Consistency isn't the strong point of this release.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    We have no idea whether that decision was based on metrics or trying something because they had no idea how it would go. They had certain assumptiions they made, and it wasn't necessarily based on metrics or solely on metrics. And if their metrics show it's not working they won't do it again. This is what I believe happend with migraine.

    The same thing can be said about every other situation where "Anet has the data".

    By the way, I gave you a list of freebie Strike achievements to do and complete the meta. They don't even require grouping up with other people as Strikes have a public/open version. Simply walk through the portal as you'd do with any open world event, get the achievements, profit. And for some players, maybe not you, they might enjoy the experience too, which is a huge plus for the Strike missions.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2020

    Yes but they included the easy ones as well as the hard ones. They are no different to an open world boss fight or a bounty just with a wall around them. They didn’t include must do the hard ones. So unless they add a load of varying difficulties again, no slippery slope.

    It’s an mmo and it brings together players from various content and various communities and metas are perfectly set up to do that

    This isn’t new, it isn’t a oroblem that I can see, if anything it is a positive and for players like me and some others, it has worked

    There are clearly differences of opinion but I think everyone reasserting the same arguments over and over is just causing this thread the cycle around now without moving forward.

    No one represents a majority, there is no single casual community like players think and no one is “right” here. Perhaps it is time to let others have their say or let the thread run its course because repeating ad infininum is prob hurting the cause more than anything since it misrepresents how many people actually care about the issue

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    The started with easier ones and said they would get harder. I can see the earlier ones are much easier. Once we have a new zone, if they continue to get harder it will be a whole different situation.

    Correction: the Bjora Marches Strike Missions have been getting harder. Grothmar has a single Strike of very low difficulty.
    The next map(s) should do the same. I don't think going above Whisper of Jormag would make any kind of sense, it's already high enough on the difficulty chart, so the Strikes of the next map(s) will also go lower in difficulty and start going up as they release more of them.

    The order of the Bjora Marches Strike Missions:
    Fraenir of Jormag
    Voice of the Fallen and Claw of the Fallen
    Boneskinner
    Whisper of Jormag

    There is lots of variety here. And achievements like the freebie "Reflections in the Ice" can be used to give incentive to players to try the harder Strike Missions, to see if they like them. Overall the design isn't bad, and including the Strike Mission achievements as requirements for the zone meta isn't prohibiting any kind of player from finishing the zone meta.

    Even your post, saying well, there are easier ones and harder ones, and I agree. But the trend is that they're getting harder.

    A trend like that makes sense as long as we stay in the same map, since the initial Strike Missions were very very easy. And it's better to go progressively higher, rather than start with something really hard then try to balance the next ones, a lesson that Arenanet (hopefully) learned from their Raids that are known for being all over the place regarding their difficulty.

    You have all the reasons for concern, after all it's Arenanet that is known for changing their attitude and direction quickly, but I think there is little reason to believe that the next Strike Missions will start from the Whisper of Jormag difficulty. It would essentially mean the death of Strike Missions as a concept/idea (and the concept/idea of a map/zone meta) so I'm quite confident they won't do that.

    Also

    I'm worried about the slippery slope here. This is one meta. Yes, you can walk through and get the results now, but strike missions are getting harder and the next zone isn't out yet. I'm not convinced Anet is going to stop here which has been my issue since the beginning of this conversation. If this is the future, it's an issue for me.

    I can understand the problem in the future, if they continue the trend of rising difficulty. But the way you worded your first post was against the idea of instanced group content (Strikes have a public version btw, no need to actually "group") used in the zone meta. So I'm gonna ask, worries about the future aside, was it a terrible idea to have the Strike achievements part of the zone meta? Given their current difficulty progression

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    So I'm gonna ask, worries about the future aside, was it a terrible idea to have the Strike achievements part of the zone meta? Given their current difficulty progression

    Terrible? i wouldn't go that far, but it's not good; players want consistent offerings ... it's an important indicator that companies understand and deliver what their customers want. Survival is not necessary for Anet; they can choose to dictate to customers if they want to. There are other games.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2020

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Yes but they included the easy ones as well as the hard ones. They are no different to an open world boss fight or a bounty just with a wall around them. They didn’t include must do the hard ones.

    It’s an mmo and it brings together players from various content and various communities and metas are perfectly set up to do that

    This isn’t new, it isn’t a oroblem that I can see, if anything it is a positive and for players like me and some others, it has worked

    There are clearly differences of opinion but I think everyone reasserting the sane arguments over and over is just causing this thread the cycle around now without moving forward.

    No one represents a majority, there is no single casual community like players think and no one is “right” here. Perhaps it is time to let others have their say or let the thread run its course because repeating as infininum is prob hurting the cause more than anything since it misrepresents how many people actually care about the issue

    The started with easier ones and said they would get harder. I can see the earlier ones are much easier. Once we have a new zone, if they continue to get harder it will be a whole different situation.

    As for no one representing a majority that's simply not true. We may not know the majority but that doesn't mean a majority doesn't exist. For example a while back Mo said that 60% of the playerbase was predominantly PVE, 30% WvW and 10% PvP. That would make PvE players a majority. Saying no one has a majority is factually untrue. You can only say we don't know the who the majority is.

    As for cycling, people continue to try to make this about something it's not. Even your post, saying well, there are easier ones and harder ones, and I agree. But the trend is that they're getting harder.

    Let me ask, if you don't say something at the beginning of the trend, isn't it your fault then if the trend continues unabated? It's an issue worthy of discussion.

    Let me rephrase it .

    No one person in this thread despite their claims to the contrary represents the majority of the playerbase

    Yes they are getting harder, but they almagmated all the ones from the same map - including the easy ones. If they are adding only harder, it is unlikely in my opinion they will add just the harder again ones as mandatory to the meta. They did it this way because it includes a variety of difficulties - keeping ti fair, whilst maintaining the goal of bringing players together. And bringing players together acros communities has been the pillar of GW2 since day one.

    Yes saying something is absolutely right. Yes feeding back is absolutely right. Saying it over and over and over and over and over and over in the same thread to bump it the front page however is cycling the same argument without bringing anything new to the table whilst arbitrarily inflating the thread size to make it look important

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    So I'm gonna ask, worries about the future aside, was it a terrible idea to have the Strike achievements part of the zone meta? Given their current difficulty progression

    Not really. People are right to think otherwise, but it's just a meta and it brings more people to Strikes. If anything I'm seeing more people doing them which is helping to make groups easier to get. There's plenty of difficulty progression here to appeal. Fraenir alone requires virtually no effort

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Let me rephrase it .

    No one person in this thread despite their claims to the contrary represents the majority of the playerbase

    True. Some of the opinions voiced in this thread may however be representative of the opinions shared by majority of playerbase.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Let me rephrase it .

    No one person in this thread despite their claims to the contrary represents the majority of the playerbase

    True. Some of the opinions voiced in this thread may however be representative of the opinions shared by majority of playerbase.

    Considering the views are wide and varied, that would be logical

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Etria.3642Etria.3642 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Yes but they included the easy ones as well as the hard ones. They are no different to an open world boss fight or a bounty just with a wall around them. They didn’t include must do the hard ones.

    It’s an mmo and it brings together players from various content and various communities and metas are perfectly set up to do that

    This isn’t new, it isn’t a oroblem that I can see, if anything it is a positive and for players like me and some others, it has worked

    There are clearly differences of opinion but I think everyone reasserting the sane arguments over and over is just causing this thread the cycle around now without moving forward.

    No one represents a majority, there is no single casual community like players think and no one is “right” here. Perhaps it is time to let others have their say or let the thread run its course because repeating as infininum is prob hurting the cause more than anything since it misrepresents how many people actually care about the issue

    The started with easier ones and said they would get harder. I can see the earlier ones are much easier. Once we have a new zone, if they continue to get harder it will be a whole different situation.

    As for no one representing a majority that's simply not true. We may not know the majority but that doesn't mean a majority doesn't exist. For example a while back Mo said that 60% of the playerbase was predominantly PVE, 30% WvW and 10% PvP. That would make PvE players a majority. Saying no one has a majority is factually untrue. You can only say we don't know the who the majority is.

    As for cycling, people continue to try to make this about something it's not. Even your post, saying well, there are easier ones and harder ones, and I agree. But the trend is that they're getting harder.

    Let me ask, if you don't say something at the beginning of the trend, isn't it your fault then if the trend continues unabated? It's an issue worthy of discussion.

    No one "represents" a majority. That would be a designated position, elected position, or some other thing that does not currently exist among GW2 players. This is entirely different from majorities existing or not. Of course they do, but then you must also assign definitions of "majority". Majority of whom? Those who login consistently? Those who have an account? Those who have x number of achievements? Those who have ever tried a raid? Those who have not? Those who login once a day? At some point waybackwhen in this thread where half of the posts are from yourself, you claim you are the majority. You then proceeded to pigeonhole where your definition of the majority was.

    The facts are, none of us have the facts. We do not know why the Strike Mission was included. We do not know if future episodes will have Strikes included. All I know, is after all these posts, I have gone from not wanting them included to heartily hoping they are. Thank you, Vayne, for changing my mind.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zaklex.6308 said:
    But you still have to do the Strike, public or not, that's also the point...I don't like them, I got that from doing the easiest Strike out there, the Grothmar one, therefore I'm not even going to bother with the Map Meta, just like I've ignored many others, it's not important, but putting any of it behind something that most people will already have made a decision on from trying the very first one is not a good or smart choice.

    How do you know "most people" already made a decision not to run Strikes? At least the easier ones