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Including Strike Mission Achievements as a Required Part of the Zone Meta

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  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Create a casual run for the strike missions then and specify it as being casual.

    People are well within their right to request people that join the groups that they created to meet certain DPS thresholds.

    Strikes are very much casual content, or at the very least, the three that rotate weekly. Whispers is debatable but doable by randoms with no raid experience. It just depends on their ability to pay attention.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2020

    The easiest solution for this (maybe not the most liked for this Meta-Achiev) will be to just play SMs if you want, and if you don't, just don't play them.
    Anet will be able to get data from that and will then have to decide if it was a good decision to include certain achievements to the Meta-achiev.
    They'll then be able to create future achievements based on that stats-feedback. I don't believe they will retroactively change anything for this release.

    In the end we can just hope Anet does what is the correct choice for Guild Wars 2, so that it keeps on going. May that be a future with SMs in the Meta-achievements, or without.

    I will just continue playing how I have until now, and adjust my playtime based on Anets future decisions.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Again, stop speaking for "casuals". I am casual minded, so are many of the players I play with and we all utterly disagree with you and have no issues with playing Strikes, nor would any of them even consider quitting the game because of it.

    I"m speaking for what I believe to be the bulk of the casual population but regardless of this, you see a thread I've linked that claims lots of people are dying. There are two types of players. Those who don't mind dying and those who see dying as failure. Those who see dying as failure may have played different games than you or learned how games work a different way.

    People who play a lot of FPS games are probably inured to dying. I grew up on adventure games and games like Tombraider before there were game saves, where you had to get to the next check point. Where dying was a really bad thing.

    ANd people are dying adn getting frustrated even if you're not. Do you know the percentage of people who get frustrated by dying like that in content...I don't. But I'm guessing it's larger than you think.

    On top of that, there's the intermetent lag spikes which tons of people are getting. Most of the time I can survive those in the open world, but not all the time. In harder instanced content it's almost an automatic death and in Strike Mission that means I can't be rezzed or use a revive orb. I'm speaking as I said for my guild of 350 people many of whom feel this way and many who wish Strike Missions didn't exist at all.

    If you're going to put them in the game, keep them seperate so people can choose to experience them if they want. That' s all I'm saying. You make it part of the zone achievement and some people, like me, will lose interest in the zone. You keep including them and some people will lose interest in the game.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Create a casual run for the strike missions then and specify it as being casual.

    People are well within their right to request people that join the groups that they created to meet certain DPS thresholds.

    Strikes are very much casual content, or at the very least, the three that rotate weekly. Whispers is debatable but doable by randoms with no raid experience. It just depends on their ability to pay attention.

    Strikes aren't casual content. Strikes are easier instanced content, but they're not casual because very often casuals don't organize. And the organization is the problem here. It's something many don't play a game to do. I will organize stuff myself, but I know my guild saw what raids did to them (as in caused a schism between better players and not so better players) and said screw this here we go again.

    You can say this is casual content, but it's really not. At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2020

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Whether you believe you speak for us is not relevant. You do not speak for any majority or bulk segment so I'd appreciate you not alluding to the idea that you do.

    Actually you simply can't know that. You can suspect it. I might be speaking for a majoirty of the playerbase, or I might be speaking for a larger segment of the playerbase demographic, even if it's not a flat out majority. I'm absolutely convinced that more people would rather not deal with strike missions than like them though. Anet will figure that out fast enough I'm sure.

    It doesn't really matter what I say or what you say. Anet has those metrics or they're getting them. If I'm wrong they won't change anything. If I'm right they probably will.

    Edit: Anyway you keep bringing this up, where in recent posts have I alluded to this at all. I stopped saying it a long time ago. You're still on this idea that I keep saying it. I've stopped.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2020

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Whether you believe you speak for us is not relevant.

    Yet you continue to insist he should stop doing so ... If you think it's not relevant, then you shouldn't have an issue with it.

    The fact is that he speaks for SOMEONE and what he calls them shouldn't be a problem with you if what he's saying doesn't apply to what you think in the first place. I mean, your big hang up is a label ... seems to me that's a very pedantic thing to take issue with. If that's the best you bring, you don't bring much.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2020

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Edit: Anyway you keep bringing this up, where in recent posts have I alluded to this at all. I stopped saying it a long time ago. You're still on this idea that I keep saying it. I've stopped.

    You brought it up just a couple of posts ago......

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    I"m speaking for what I believe to be the bulk of the casual population

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Edit: Anyway you keep bringing this up, where in recent posts have I alluded to this at all. I stopped saying it a long time ago. You're still on this idea that I keep saying it. I've stopped.

    You brought it up just a couple of posts ago......

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    I"m speaking for what I believe to be the bulk of the casual population

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Edit: Anyway you keep bringing this up, where in recent posts have I alluded to this at all. I stopped saying it a long time ago. You're still on this idea that I keep saying it. I've stopped.

    You brought it up just a couple of posts ago......

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    I"m speaking for what I believe to be the bulk of the casual population

    Wait a sec? I can't say what I believe now? I didn't state it as a fact. I stated it as a belief. I believe this to be true. That doesn't mean it's automatically true. Saying people shouldn't state a belief on a forum as a belief is simply not on (as we say downunder).

    I absolutely believe most people could care less about strike missions in the way I think most people could care less about raids.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Create a casual run for the strike missions then and specify it as being casual.

    People are well within their right to request people that join the groups that they created to meet certain DPS thresholds.

    Strikes are very much casual content, or at the very least, the three that rotate weekly. Whispers is debatable but doable by randoms with no raid experience. It just depends on their ability to pay attention.

    Strikes aren't casual content. Strikes are easier instanced content, but they're not casual because very often casuals don't organize. And the organization is the problem here. It's something many don't play a game to do. I will organize stuff myself, but I know my guild saw what raids did to them (as in caused a schism between better players and not so better players) and said screw this here we go again.

    You can say this is casual content, but it's really not. At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

    They're casual content. You don't need to organize for them unless going for all of the bonus chests. You wait in LFG just like you would for dungeons and fractals. The only difference is that it takes a little longer since you need 10 players instead of 5.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Create a casual run for the strike missions then and specify it as being casual.

    People are well within their right to request people that join the groups that they created to meet certain DPS thresholds.

    Strikes are very much casual content, or at the very least, the three that rotate weekly. Whispers is debatable but doable by randoms with no raid experience. It just depends on their ability to pay attention.

    Strikes aren't casual content. Strikes are easier instanced content, but they're not casual because very often casuals don't organize. And the organization is the problem here. It's something many don't play a game to do. I will organize stuff myself, but I know my guild saw what raids did to them (as in caused a schism between better players and not so better players) and said screw this here we go again.

    You can say this is casual content, but it's really not. At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

    They're casual content. You don't need to organize for them unless going for all of the bonus chests. You wait in LFG just like you would for dungeons and fractals. The only difference is that it takes a little longer since you need 10 players instead of 5.

    He's a casual and speaks on behalf of all casuals. If any one knows what casual content it's him. Just because I can join/beat T3 fractals and dungeons and strikes via lfg with 4-9 others I never met nor speak too during means it is Hardcore content.

    I'm not going on a limb when I say that I seriously doubt most of the playerbase has ever touched a tier 3 fractal. I have. Most of my guild has never entered a fractal.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @WendyB.1650 said:
    Requiring this is already driving some of the casuals away. Whatever your definition of casual is, this is mine; A casual player is one who plays mainly in the PVE world getting levels, achievements and exploring without having to have 'That build with your rotations down to achieve this much DPS' A;ready there are strike LFG's that are saying they are running dps monitor and to you have this or that. I am a casual player who also is an achievement hunter. Yes, I play a lot, but no I am not good at rotations,
    Builds, and Raid mechanics. YET before this I have always been able to achieve the meta map achievement. Yes other maps have had jump puzzles and other things that were bothersome, but you usually could do other map achievements to get it and is not you could get a group of regular 'casual' players to help you get through, but with the newer Strikes they have made it so that just getting a group together that can complete it is hard.

    My husband quit for 4 years after HoT came out. I got him wto come back lately to play yet he has only completed story in the new area and ran around for a few min. I tried to get him to do a strike and he said he would rather go play another game than ever try that kitten where he would feel inferior if we had to carrying him. Why pplay a game if they force you to feel inferior he asked me. He and I are older and just not so coordinated.

    They have already basically banned us from Legendary Armor since if I ever want to get it I would have to do paid Raids since there is no way I doing an LFG for it. I have joined a wonderful WvW group that does not care about builds and stuff but it will be a long hall to 2000 to get that Legendary Armor and most casual players will not take the route I am.

    This is the game failing to raise you as a player sadly. The mechanical skill required to do raids is not that high as there are rotations out there where you only hit 2 buttons to do sufficient raid dps. The jump from open world to raids is like the jump from first grade to fifth grade. No ones going to say fifth grade is hard but the game does nothing to fill in second, third, and fourth grade for you so it feels like it's hard. The game also has a bunch of noob traps when it comes to trait and gear choices and does nothing to call out that you might be going down the wrong path.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @WendyB.1650 said:
    Requiring this is already driving some of the casuals away. Whatever your definition of casual is, this is mine; A casual player is one who plays mainly in the PVE world getting levels, achievements and exploring without having to have 'That build with your rotations down to achieve this much DPS' A;ready there are strike LFG's that are saying they are running dps monitor and to you have this or that. I am a casual player who also is an achievement hunter. Yes, I play a lot, but no I am not good at rotations,
    Builds, and Raid mechanics. YET before this I have always been able to achieve the meta map achievement. Yes other maps have had jump puzzles and other things that were bothersome, but you usually could do other map achievements to get it and is not you could get a group of regular 'casual' players to help you get through, but with the newer Strikes they have made it so that just getting a group together that can complete it is hard.

    My husband quit for 4 years after HoT came out. I got him wto come back lately to play yet he has only completed story in the new area and ran around for a few min. I tried to get him to do a strike and he said he would rather go play another game than ever try that kitten where he would feel inferior if we had to carrying him. Why pplay a game if they force you to feel inferior he asked me. He and I are older and just not so coordinated.

    They have already basically banned us from Legendary Armor since if I ever want to get it I would have to do paid Raids since there is no way I doing an LFG for it. I have joined a wonderful WvW group that does not care about builds and stuff but it will be a long hall to 2000 to get that Legendary Armor and most casual players will not take the route I am.

    This is the game failing to raise you as a player sadly. The mechanical skill required to do raids is not that high as there are rotations out there where you only hit 2 buttons to do sufficient raid dps. The jump from open world to raids is like the jump from first grade to fifth grade. No ones going to say fifth grade is hard but the game does nothing to fill in second, third, and fourth grade for you so it feels like it's hard. The game also has a bunch of noob traps when it comes to trait and gear choices and does nothing to call out that you might be going down the wrong path.

    See I don't understand this at all. The game isn't failing to raise me as a player because I'm not interested in being raised as a player. You seem to think everyone who plays a sport wants to compete at that sport. SOme people play professional ball, some people play amateur ball and some people just want to have a catch and there's nothing wrong with that. The ball wasn't designed for only competitive sports. It was designed to enjoy yourself and everyone enjoys themselves differently. Most people don't walk up to two people playing catch and say you're doing it wrong. It would be a weird thing to say.

    You're making it sound like somehow we should all strive to be great at a game that many of us play just to relax. Have some laughs with friends. You're making it sound like I couldn't do raids if I wanted to but I can do them. I have no interest in them. I don't want to do them. I don't need to get better at the game. I need the game to stop telling me to play baseball when I want to have a catch.

    The more rewards they lock behind content i have no interest in the less this game is my game. The more they make stuff like strike missions part of something like zone metas the less this game and that zone interests me, because that's not my interest. I've run T4 fractals. I've run all the dungeons many many times. I'm not interested in Strike Missions. I'm not interested in raids. The game hasn't failed to raise me as a player. Hell raids didn't even exist in this game for the first 3.5 years and for the first 3.5 years I did everything in the game. But they added something I'm not interested in, and now they're adding something I'm not interested in to try to interest me in something I'm already not interested in.

    I can look up a build on snowcrows and meta battle. I can practice a rotation on the practice dummy. I can watch a raid video. I have no interest in doing any of it. Not even a little. Even if it makes me a "better" player. I'd rather have a catch.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @WendyB.1650 said:
    Requiring this is already driving some of the casuals away. Whatever your definition of casual is, this is mine; A casual player is one who plays mainly in the PVE world getting levels, achievements and exploring without having to have 'That build with your rotations down to achieve this much DPS' A;ready there are strike LFG's that are saying they are running dps monitor and to you have this or that. I am a casual player who also is an achievement hunter. Yes, I play a lot, but no I am not good at rotations,
    Builds, and Raid mechanics. YET before this I have always been able to achieve the meta map achievement. Yes other maps have had jump puzzles and other things that were bothersome, but you usually could do other map achievements to get it and is not you could get a group of regular 'casual' players to help you get through, but with the newer Strikes they have made it so that just getting a group together that can complete it is hard.

    My husband quit for 4 years after HoT came out. I got him wto come back lately to play yet he has only completed story in the new area and ran around for a few min. I tried to get him to do a strike and he said he would rather go play another game than ever try that kitten where he would feel inferior if we had to carrying him. Why pplay a game if they force you to feel inferior he asked me. He and I are older and just not so coordinated.

    They have already basically banned us from Legendary Armor since if I ever want to get it I would have to do paid Raids since there is no way I doing an LFG for it. I have joined a wonderful WvW group that does not care about builds and stuff but it will be a long hall to 2000 to get that Legendary Armor and most casual players will not take the route I am.

    This is the game failing to raise you as a player sadly. The mechanical skill required to do raids is not that high as there are rotations out there where you only hit 2 buttons to do sufficient raid dps. The jump from open world to raids is like the jump from first grade to fifth grade. No ones going to say fifth grade is hard but the game does nothing to fill in second, third, and fourth grade for you so it feels like it's hard. The game also has a bunch of noob traps when it comes to trait and gear choices and does nothing to call out that you might be going down the wrong path.

    See I don't understand this at all. The game isn't failing to raise me as a player because I'm not interested in being raised as a player. You seem to think everyone who plays a sport wants to compete at that sport. SOme people play professional ball, some people play amateur ball and some people just want to have a catch and there's nothing wrong with that. The ball wasn't designed for only competitive sports. It was designed to enjoy yourself and everyone enjoys themselves differently. Most people don't walk up to two people playing catch and say you're doing it wrong. It would be a weird thing to say.

    You're making it sound like somehow we should all strive to be great at a game that many of us play just to relax. Have some laughs with friends. You're making it sound like I couldn't do raids if I wanted to but I can do them. I have no interest in them. I don't want to do them. I don't need to get better at the game. I need the game to stop telling me to play baseball when I want to have a catch.

    The more rewards they lock behind content i have no interest in the less this game is my game. The more they make stuff like strike missions part of something like zone metas the less this game and that zone interests me, because that's not my interest. I've run T4 fractals. I've run all the dungeons many many times. I'm not interested in Strike Missions. I'm not interested in raids. The game hasn't failed to raise me as a player. Hell raids didn't even exist in this game for the first 3.5 years and for the first 3.5 years I did everything in the game. But they added something I'm not interested in, and now they're adding something I'm not interested in to try to interest me in something I'm already not interested in.

    I can look up a build on snowcrows and meta battle. I can practice a rotation on the practice dummy. I can watch a raid video. I have no interest in doing any of it. Not even a little. Even if it makes me a "better" player. I'd rather have a catch.

    You're missing the point of making better players.

    Are you at this point a better player then when you started? I dare to wager most people are. If you design your game well people will improve without themselves noticing.

    As a developer you want this because it makes it easier to develop content wich feels meaningful to as many people as possible.

    Even if raids where never introduced it would still be a good game design to make players improve.

    On a side note, how would you feel about strikes if raids where never introduced?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2020

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Create a casual run for the strike missions then and specify it as being casual.

    People are well within their right to request people that join the groups that they created to meet certain DPS thresholds.

    Strikes are very much casual content, or at the very least, the three that rotate weekly. Whispers is debatable but doable by randoms with no raid experience. It just depends on their ability to pay attention.

    Strikes aren't casual content. Strikes are easier instanced content, but they're not casual because very often casuals don't organize. And the organization is the problem here. It's something many don't play a game to do. I will organize stuff myself, but I know my guild saw what raids did to them (as in caused a schism between better players and not so better players) and said screw this here we go again.

    You can say this is casual content, but it's really not. At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

    They're casual content. You don't need to organize for them unless going for all of the bonus chests. You wait in LFG just like you would for dungeons and fractals. The only difference is that it takes a little longer since you need 10 players instead of 5.

    You don't even -have- to wait in the LFG... touch the portal is all you need to do to play and complete the easier Strikes, and is more than enough to finish the zone meta. You can also go... solo and finish some of the meta achievements on your own. Or get a friend or two, in a big guild you might have some.

    You don't need to organize. You don't need 10 people. You don't need to wait. Strikes are not dungeons or fractals

    At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

    Good thing they aren't needed for the zone meta then. Is your problem that there are easy and hard Strikes? Is that what this is all about? That some Strikes are actually good content and not solo content?

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @WendyB.1650 said:
    Requiring this is already driving some of the casuals away. Whatever your definition of casual is, this is mine; A casual player is one who plays mainly in the PVE world getting levels, achievements and exploring without having to have 'That build with your rotations down to achieve this much DPS' A;ready there are strike LFG's that are saying they are running dps monitor and to you have this or that. I am a casual player who also is an achievement hunter. Yes, I play a lot, but no I am not good at rotations,
    Builds, and Raid mechanics. YET before this I have always been able to achieve the meta map achievement. Yes other maps have had jump puzzles and other things that were bothersome, but you usually could do other map achievements to get it and is not you could get a group of regular 'casual' players to help you get through, but with the newer Strikes they have made it so that just getting a group together that can complete it is hard.

    My husband quit for 4 years after HoT came out. I got him wto come back lately to play yet he has only completed story in the new area and ran around for a few min. I tried to get him to do a strike and he said he would rather go play another game than ever try that kitten where he would feel inferior if we had to carrying him. Why pplay a game if they force you to feel inferior he asked me. He and I are older and just not so coordinated.

    They have already basically banned us from Legendary Armor since if I ever want to get it I would have to do paid Raids since there is no way I doing an LFG for it. I have joined a wonderful WvW group that does not care about builds and stuff but it will be a long hall to 2000 to get that Legendary Armor and most casual players will not take the route I am.

    This is the game failing to raise you as a player sadly. The mechanical skill required to do raids is not that high as there are rotations out there where you only hit 2 buttons to do sufficient raid dps. The jump from open world to raids is like the jump from first grade to fifth grade. No ones going to say fifth grade is hard but the game does nothing to fill in second, third, and fourth grade for you so it feels like it's hard. The game also has a bunch of noob traps when it comes to trait and gear choices and does nothing to call out that you might be going down the wrong path.

    See I don't understand this at all. The game isn't failing to raise me as a player because I'm not interested in being raised as a player. You seem to think everyone who plays a sport wants to compete at that sport. SOme people play professional ball, some people play amateur ball and some people just want to have a catch and there's nothing wrong with that. The ball wasn't designed for only competitive sports. It was designed to enjoy yourself and everyone enjoys themselves differently. Most people don't walk up to two people playing catch and say you're doing it wrong. It would be a weird thing to say.

    You're making it sound like somehow we should all strive to be great at a game that many of us play just to relax. Have some laughs with friends. You're making it sound like I couldn't do raids if I wanted to but I can do them. I have no interest in them. I don't want to do them. I don't need to get better at the game. I need the game to stop telling me to play baseball when I want to have a catch.

    The more rewards they lock behind content i have no interest in the less this game is my game. The more they make stuff like strike missions part of something like zone metas the less this game and that zone interests me, because that's not my interest. I've run T4 fractals. I've run all the dungeons many many times. I'm not interested in Strike Missions. I'm not interested in raids. The game hasn't failed to raise me as a player. Hell raids didn't even exist in this game for the first 3.5 years and for the first 3.5 years I did everything in the game. But they added something I'm not interested in, and now they're adding something I'm not interested in to try to interest me in something I'm already not interested in.

    I can look up a build on snowcrows and meta battle. I can practice a rotation on the practice dummy. I can watch a raid video. I have no interest in doing any of it. Not even a little. Even if it makes me a "better" player. I'd rather have a catch.

    You're missing the point of making better players.

    Are you at this point a better player then when you started? I dare to wager most people are. If you design your game well people will improve without themselves noticing.

    As a developer you want this because it makes it easier to develop content wich feels meaningful to as many people as possible.

    Even if raids where never introduced it would still be a good game design to make players improve.

    On a side note, how would you feel about strikes if raids where never introduced?

    I'm not interested in ten man instanced content period. I've never been interested in high man instanced content, even in Guild Wars 1, when they came out with Urgoz Warren and the Deep both of which I beat. I just prefer smaller group content and always have.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Create a casual run for the strike missions then and specify it as being casual.

    People are well within their right to request people that join the groups that they created to meet certain DPS thresholds.

    Strikes are very much casual content, or at the very least, the three that rotate weekly. Whispers is debatable but doable by randoms with no raid experience. It just depends on their ability to pay attention.

    Strikes aren't casual content. Strikes are easier instanced content, but they're not casual because very often casuals don't organize. And the organization is the problem here. It's something many don't play a game to do. I will organize stuff myself, but I know my guild saw what raids did to them (as in caused a schism between better players and not so better players) and said screw this here we go again.

    You can say this is casual content, but it's really not. At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

    They're casual content. You don't need to organize for them unless going for all of the bonus chests. You wait in LFG just like you would for dungeons and fractals. The only difference is that it takes a little longer since you need 10 players instead of 5.

    You don't even -have- to wait in the LFG... touch the portal is all you need to do to play and complete the easier Strikes, and is more than enough to finish the zone meta. You can also go... solo and finish some of the meta achievements on your own. Or get a friend or two, in a big guild you might have some.

    You don't need to organize. You don't need 10 people. You don't need to wait. Strikes are not dungeons or fractals

    At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

    Good thing they aren't needed for the zone meta then. Is your problem that there are easy and hard Strikes? Is that what this is all about? That some Strikes are actually good content and not solo content?

    The point is there's a trend and I don't like the trend. You want strike missions, fine. Keep them out of zone metas. PvP and raids are separate, why should this be the exception?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Create a casual run for the strike missions then and specify it as being casual.

    People are well within their right to request people that join the groups that they created to meet certain DPS thresholds.

    Strikes are very much casual content, or at the very least, the three that rotate weekly. Whispers is debatable but doable by randoms with no raid experience. It just depends on their ability to pay attention.

    Strikes aren't casual content. Strikes are easier instanced content, but they're not casual because very often casuals don't organize. And the organization is the problem here. It's something many don't play a game to do. I will organize stuff myself, but I know my guild saw what raids did to them (as in caused a schism between better players and not so better players) and said screw this here we go again.

    You can say this is casual content, but it's really not. At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

    They're casual content. You don't need to organize for them unless going for all of the bonus chests. You wait in LFG just like you would for dungeons and fractals. The only difference is that it takes a little longer since you need 10 players instead of 5.

    You don't even -have- to wait in the LFG... touch the portal is all you need to do to play and complete the easier Strikes, and is more than enough to finish the zone meta. You can also go... solo and finish some of the meta achievements on your own. Or get a friend or two, in a big guild you might have some.

    You don't need to organize. You don't need 10 people. You don't need to wait. Strikes are not dungeons or fractals

    At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

    Good thing they aren't needed for the zone meta then. Is your problem that there are easy and hard Strikes? Is that what this is all about? That some Strikes are actually good content and not solo content?

    The point is there's a trend and I don't like the trend. You want strike missions, fine. Keep them out of zone metas. PvP and raids are separate, why should this be the exception?

    Not contesting the trend, we've already been over that, I expect the next batch of Strike Missions to have both easy and hard ones, just like this one. You fear that the next batch will -start- at the level of the last one from this one. I think Arenanet doesn't want to kill strike missions already. We'll see how that turns out.

    I'm contesting the idea that Strike Missions are not casual content and the idea that they need any kind of organization to succeed. The easier strike missions are casual content and require zero preparation or organization. Touch the zone exit, kill the boss, get out. No planning, no LFG, no team building, no builds, no rotations, no roles, nothing. And you can finish these easier ones to complete the meta, or get a few of the participation achievements of the harder ones. So there is no non-casual content required to finish the meta. That some of the later strike missions are harder is true, they do require preparation and organization, but they aren't needed for the meta.

    If it stays like this, with both easy and hard missions, casual and hardcore strike missions, would it be OK to have future Strike Missions in the meta? If indeed the problem is with the trend

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2020

    So I just did the light the torches achievement and everyone is right. You can do it solo. You'll die and restart a bunch of times, but you can do it. And it's absolutely 100% pointless. It's like rez rushing in the old dungeons. Sure you can do it. But what did I do? I cheezed it. Made me feel great, I can tell you. I don't want to do the content and even if I can cheeze a couple of the achievements like this it still sucked and I still don't want to do this and I don't want to see this as a pattern going forward. Yep,, I found it really annoying. I don't love the fishing event either and had to do it 20 times but at least I was doing content, not cheezing content.

    Edit: Honestly that's the defense. This is okay because you exploit it. I don't think that makes it okay. It's a bad justification for what I believe is an unpopular decision.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Create a casual run for the strike missions then and specify it as being casual.

    People are well within their right to request people that join the groups that they created to meet certain DPS thresholds.

    Strikes are very much casual content, or at the very least, the three that rotate weekly. Whispers is debatable but doable by randoms with no raid experience. It just depends on their ability to pay attention.

    Strikes aren't casual content. Strikes are easier instanced content, but they're not casual because very often casuals don't organize. And the organization is the problem here. It's something many don't play a game to do. I will organize stuff myself, but I know my guild saw what raids did to them (as in caused a schism between better players and not so better players) and said screw this here we go again.

    You can say this is casual content, but it's really not. At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

    They're casual content. You don't need to organize for them unless going for all of the bonus chests. You wait in LFG just like you would for dungeons and fractals. The only difference is that it takes a little longer since you need 10 players instead of 5.

    You don't even -have- to wait in the LFG... touch the portal is all you need to do to play and complete the easier Strikes, and is more than enough to finish the zone meta. You can also go... solo and finish some of the meta achievements on your own. Or get a friend or two, in a big guild you might have some.

    You don't need to organize. You don't need 10 people. You don't need to wait. Strikes are not dungeons or fractals

    At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

    Good thing they aren't needed for the zone meta then. Is your problem that there are easy and hard Strikes? Is that what this is all about? That some Strikes are actually good content and not solo content?

    The point is there's a trend and I don't like the trend. You want strike missions, fine. Keep them out of zone metas. PvP and raids are separate, why should this be the exception?

    Not contesting the trend, we've already been over that, I expect the next batch of Strike Missions to have both easy and hard ones, just like this one. You fear that the next batch will -start- at the level of the last one from this one. I think Arenanet doesn't want to kill strike missions already. We'll see how that turns out.

    I'm contesting the idea that Strike Missions are not casual content and the idea that they need any kind of organization to succeed. The easier strike missions are casual content and require zero preparation or organization. Touch the zone exit, kill the boss, get out. No planning, no LFG, no team building, no builds, no rotations, no roles, nothing. And you can finish these easier ones to complete the meta, or get a few of the participation achievements of the harder ones. So there is no non-casual content required to finish the meta. That some of the later strike missions are harder is true, they do require preparation and organization, but they aren't needed for the meta.

    If it stays like this, with both easy and hard missions, casual and hardcore strike missions, would it be OK to have future Strike Missions in the meta? If indeed the problem is with the trend

    Well we just wiped on the Boneskinner and half the group left.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2020

    @yann.1946 said:

    You're missing the point of making better players.

    No. The game cannot make "better players". It can help improve mechanical skill of players, but that doesn't make them "better".

    Are you at this point a better player then when you started?

    No. I don't think so. I may be more experienced as far as GW2 mechanics are concerned, but that does not make me "better". In fact, i tend to avoid players that associate higher skill levels with some kind of superiority over other players, because those kinds of "better players" are often anything but.

    There are many ways of being a "good player" that aren't associated with skill. With the most important one revolving around not being a kitten.

    If you design your game well people will improve without themselves noticing.

    Their mechanical skill may improve, yes. Other qualities, not necessarily.

    As a developer you want this because it makes it easier to develop content wich feels meaningful to as many people as possible.

    "which feels meaningful to people that concern themselves with mechanical difficulty and skill", you mean. I'm here mostly for story and laid back entertainment, and strikes are not very meaningful in that regard.

    Even if raids where never introduced it would still be a good game design to make players improve.

    That would require a game designed in a way that helps faciliating that. GW2 is not that game - the class/build/combat system is extremely unintuitive, and designed in such a way that if the players want to improve, they need to do it completely on their own, with the game offering no help whatsoever in that regard.

    Besides, there's a catch - it may be a good design to help players improve, but it's a bad design to force them to improve.
    And while strikes may require improvement, they do not help players at all.

    On a side note, how would you feel about strikes if raids where never introduced?

    Pretty much the same. They should be a separate content, they should not be forced onto the main populace.

    The game being what it is, and the differences between average and top players being as big as they are, those two groups should never be mixed together in a single content. Because it will only end up being painful for both sides.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Well we just wiped on the Boneskinner and half the group left.

    Fraenir of Jormag
    Elemental Elegy
    Fraenir Frolic*
    High Shaman, High Stakes*

    Voice and Claw
    Break It Up
    Flawless Fallen*
    Kodan Dodger*

    Boneskinner
    Flickering Light
    Deathless Hunt*
    Hold onto the Light*

    Whisper of Jormag
    Reflections in the Ice
    Vortex, Interrupted
    Legendary Whisper of Jormag*
    Slither-less*
    Whisper Boxing*

    Sanctifier*

    The Strike Mission achievements, those with * require completion, the others do not. You need 37 achievements to complete the meta, 45 are available total in Shadow in the Ice, 15 Achievements are inside Strike Missions. This means you need 7 achievements from strike missions to complete the meta.

    Fraenir of Jormag is a very easy encounter and the achievements there are also relatively easy. The Voice and Claw is a bit more difficult encounter, but still not really hard. Sanctifier can be completed by killing the Fraenir and Kodan 20 times. That's 7 achievements without ever touching the harder Strike Missions.

    Now, if you find some of the Fraenir or Kodan achievements hard to complete you have the following options:
    Reflections in the Ice on the Whisper of Jormag is almost a freebie, Vortex Interrupted is also very much doable provided the team has unlocked the proper mastery, you will get enough vortexes before he reaches the harder parts of the fight. Both of these aren't hard to acquire and they do not demand killing the boss, get a team of 10 randoms (to more easily break the bar) and slowly lower his health while finishing the 2 achievements. Flickering Light can be completed without joining a group (as you did) but I'd suggest going there with a group anyway, I think that's a harder one to solo or do in a random group.

    There is enough achievements to finish without entering the Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag missions, and in case it is required, you don't need to kill them to progress.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Well we just wiped on the Boneskinner and half the group left.

    Fraenir of Jormag
    Elemental Elegy
    Fraenir Frolic*
    High Shaman, High Stakes*

    Voice and Claw
    Break It Up
    Flawless Fallen*
    Kodan Dodger*

    Boneskinner
    Flickering Light
    Deathless Hunt*
    Hold onto the Light*

    Whisper of Jormag
    Reflections in the Ice
    Vortex, Interrupted
    Legendary Whisper of Jormag*
    Slither-less*
    Whisper Boxing*

    Sanctifier*

    The Strike Mission achievements, those with * require completion, the others do not. You need 37 achievements to complete the meta, 45 are available total in Shadow in the Ice, 15 Achievements are inside Strike Missions. This means you need 7 achievements from strike missions to complete the meta.

    Fraenir of Jormag is a very easy encounter and the achievements there are also relatively easy. The Voice and Claw is a bit more difficult encounter, but still not really hard. Sanctifier can be completed by killing the Fraenir and Kodan 20 times. That's 7 achievements without ever touching the harder Strike Missions.

    Now, if you find some of the Fraenir or Kodan achievements hard to complete you have the following options:
    Reflections in the Ice on the Whisper of Jormag is almost a freebie, Vortex Interrupted is also very much doable provided the team has unlocked the proper mastery, you will get enough vortexes before he reaches the harder parts of the fight. Both of these aren't hard to acquire and they do not demand killing the boss, get a team of 10 randoms (to more easily break the bar) and slowly lower his health while finishing the 2 achievements. Flickering Light can be completed without joining a group (as you did) but I'd suggest going there with a group anyway, I think that's a harder one to solo or do in a random group.

    There is enough achievements to finish without entering the Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag missions, and in case it is required, you don't need to kill them to progress.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Well we just wiped on the Boneskinner and half the group left.

    Fraenir of Jormag
    Elemental Elegy
    Fraenir Frolic*
    High Shaman, High Stakes*

    Voice and Claw
    Break It Up
    Flawless Fallen*
    Kodan Dodger*

    Boneskinner
    Flickering Light
    Deathless Hunt*
    Hold onto the Light*

    Whisper of Jormag
    Reflections in the Ice
    Vortex, Interrupted
    Legendary Whisper of Jormag*
    Slither-less*
    Whisper Boxing*

    Sanctifier*

    The Strike Mission achievements, those with * require completion, the others do not. You need 37 achievements to complete the meta, 45 are available total in Shadow in the Ice, 15 Achievements are inside Strike Missions. This means you need 7 achievements from strike missions to complete the meta.

    Fraenir of Jormag is a very easy encounter and the achievements there are also relatively easy. The Voice and Claw is a bit more difficult encounter, but still not really hard. Sanctifier can be completed by killing the Fraenir and Kodan 20 times. That's 7 achievements without ever touching the harder Strike Missions.

    Now, if you find some of the Fraenir or Kodan achievements hard to complete you have the following options:
    Reflections in the Ice on the Whisper of Jormag is almost a freebie, Vortex Interrupted is also very much doable provided the team has unlocked the proper mastery, you will get enough vortexes before he reaches the harder parts of the fight. Both of these aren't hard to acquire and they do not demand killing the boss, get a team of 10 randoms (to more easily break the bar) and slowly lower his health while finishing the 2 achievements. Flickering Light can be completed without joining a group (as you did) but I'd suggest going there with a group anyway, I think that's a harder one to solo or do in a random group.

    There is enough achievements to finish without entering the Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag missions, and in case it is required, you don't need to kill them to progress.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Well we just wiped on the Boneskinner and half the group left.

    Fraenir of Jormag
    Elemental Elegy
    Fraenir Frolic*
    High Shaman, High Stakes*

    Voice and Claw
    Break It Up
    Flawless Fallen*
    Kodan Dodger*

    Boneskinner
    Flickering Light
    Deathless Hunt*
    Hold onto the Light*

    Whisper of Jormag
    Reflections in the Ice
    Vortex, Interrupted
    Legendary Whisper of Jormag*
    Slither-less*
    Whisper Boxing*

    Sanctifier*

    The Strike Mission achievements, those with * require completion, the others do not. You need 37 achievements to complete the meta, 45 are available total in Shadow in the Ice, 15 Achievements are inside Strike Missions. This means you need 7 achievements from strike missions to complete the meta.

    Fraenir of Jormag is a very easy encounter and the achievements there are also relatively easy. The Voice and Claw is a bit more difficult encounter, but still not really hard. Sanctifier can be completed by killing the Fraenir and Kodan 20 times. That's 7 achievements without ever touching the harder Strike Missions.

    Now, if you find some of the Fraenir or Kodan achievements hard to complete you have the following options:
    Reflections in the Ice on the Whisper of Jormag is almost a freebie, Vortex Interrupted is also very much doable provided the team has unlocked the proper mastery, you will get enough vortexes before he reaches the harder parts of the fight. Both of these aren't hard to acquire and they do not demand killing the boss, get a team of 10 randoms (to more easily break the bar) and slowly lower his health while finishing the 2 achievements. Flickering Light can be completed without joining a group (as you did) but I'd suggest going there with a group anyway, I think that's a harder one to solo or do in a random group.

    There is enough achievements to finish without entering the Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag missions, and in case it is required, you don't need to kill them to progress.

    OKay you're still not seeing what I'm seeing so I'll try again.

    This specific round, sure you can get a bunch of them and cheeze some of them and in general make do. But I don't play games to make do. Right now, at this moment,. doing either of those strike missions even five times sours me from teh game. I don't LIKE the content. I don't want to do the content. I don't think I should have to. I have never had to do that content before.

    You're saying this time we can get away with this, but that's all we're really doing. Getting away with it. This time. And I think that's a bad way to run a railroad. You seeem to be thinking I CAN'T get the meta. I know I CAN get the meta. It's a totally horrid process for me that was never a horrid process before. It turns me off from the game and makes me not want to play it.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    You're missing the point of making better players.

    No. The game cannot make "better players". It can help improve mechanical skill of players, but that doesn't make them "better".

    Are you at this point a better player then when you started?

    No. I don't think so. I may be more experienced as far as GW2 mechanics are concerned, but that does not make me "better". In fact, i tend to avoid players that associate higher skill levels with some kind of superiority over other players, because those kinds of "better players" are often anything but.

    There are many ways of being a "good player" that aren't associated with skill. With the most important one revolving around not being a kitten.

    If you design your game well people will improve without themselves noticing.

    Their mechanical skill may improve, yes. Other qualities, not necessarily.

    As a developer you want this because it makes it easier to develop content wich feels meaningful to as many people as possible.

    "which feels meaningful to people that concern themselves with mechanical difficulty and skill", you mean. I'm here mostly for story and laid back entertainment, and strikes are not very meaningful in that regard.

    Even if raids where never introduced it would still be a good game design to make players improve.

    That would require a game designed in a way that helps faciliating that. GW2 is not that game - the class/build/combat system is extremely unintuitive, and designed in such a way that if the players want to improve, they need to do it completely on their own, with the game offering no help whatsoever in that regard.

    Besides, there's a catch - it may be a good design to help players improve, but it's a bad design to force them to improve.
    And while strikes may require improvement, they do not help players at all.

    On a side note, how would you feel about strikes if raids where never introduced?

    Pretty much the same. They should be a separate content, they should not be forced onto the main populace.

    The game being what it is, and the differences between average and top players being as big as they are, those two groups should never be mixed together in a single content. Because it will only end up being painful for both sides.

    We'll I meant better as mechanical better and more well-versed with the systems. Not as in a better person. I would think that was obvious but I guess not.

    And no the meaningfull doesn't nessecarily means for those who enjoy mechanical skill.

    Let's give an example.
    Take caduceus for example.
    That boss is meaningfull from a story perspective because of his background.
    Its attacks have meaning because of the visuals, story and impact.
    But this lead to a discontent with people wo only are interested in the story vs those only interested in the mechanical challenge.

    If you make the gap of mechanical skill smaller both parties can get some meaningfull experience from the boss fight.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2020

    @yann.1946 said:
    If you make the gap of mechanical skill smaller both parties can get some meaningfull experience from the boss fight.

    Yes. Unfortunately, this game cannot make that gap smaller. It would require not things like Strikes, but actual mechanical changes to the things that are the reason behind such a big effectiveness disparity. And those changes would need to be way bigger than what the game can afford to do now. I mean, we're talking now not about the expac level changes, but about something on the level of "Gw2 Remake" or "GW3". So, major rewrite of combat/class/gear/build system.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    If you make the gap of mechanical skill smaller both parties can get some meaningfull experience from the boss fight.

    Yes. Unfortunately, this game cannot make that gap smaller. It would require not things like Strikes, but actual mechanical changes to the things that are the reason behind such a big effectiveness disparity. And those changes would need to be way bigger than what the game can afford to do now. I mean, we're talking now not about the expac level changes, but about something on the level of "Gw2 Remake" or "GW3". So, major rewrite of combat/class/gear/build system.

    Maybe, i mean the new player achievement thing might help a little. I do think some things can be done without having to rewrite the basis of the game.

    I agree that strikes alone won't help on their one. They might give motivation though and can improve purely mechanical skill.

    In the end, to me the point of vayne i responded to had more to do with the fact that he dismissed wanting player to be mechanical better with wanting them into raids.
    Which is not the same thing, and wanting your playerbase to be mechanical better should not be seen as a bad thing.

    Edit: My standard outlook of gamedesign is quite omnivorous. I personaly think a game should strive to let people experience as much of its content as possible. i wouldn't mind their too be pvp and WvW achievements with the meta , even if i don't enjoy those mode personally, if that were parts that where released with the episode. I understand that lots of people wouldn't want such a thing so i won't advocate for it. This was more to explain where my views come from. And my intent is to let as much people enjoy the content, which means you can't just make it for one side( as far a their are sides here.)

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    If you make the gap of mechanical skill smaller both parties can get some meaningfull experience from the boss fight.

    Yes. Unfortunately, this game cannot make that gap smaller. It would require not things like Strikes, but actual mechanical changes to the things that are the reason behind such a big effectiveness disparity. And those changes would need to be way bigger than what the game can afford to do now. I mean, we're talking now not about the expac level changes, but about something on the level of "Gw2 Remake" or "GW3". So, major rewrite of combat/class/gear/build system.

    Maybe, i mean the new player achievement thing might help a little. I do think some things can be done without having to rewrite the basis of the game.

    I agree that strikes alone won't help on their one. They might give motivation though and can improve purely mechanical skill.

    In the end, to me the point of vayne i responded to had more to do with the fact that he dismissed wanting player to be mechanical better with wanting them into raids.
    Which is not the same thing, and wanting your playerbase to be mechanical better should not be seen as a bad thing.

    Edit: My standard outlook of gamedesign is quite omnivorous. I personaly think a game should strive to let people experience as much of its content as possible. i wouldn't mind their too be pvp and WvW achievements with the meta , even if i don't enjoy those mode personally, if that were parts that where released with the episode. I understand that lots of people wouldn't want such a thing so i won't advocate for it. This was more to explain where my views come from. And my intent is to let as much people enjoy the content, which means you can't just make it for one side( as far a their are sides here.)

    And yet again, my issue isn't including achievements for different content, but moving the bar on existing content that people have been doing for ages. Let's pretended they changed normal dailies so you had to do a dungeon or stuff in a dungeon. Could you imagine the outcry. Zone metas aren't new. I did all the the ones for Season 3 and Season 4 and two so far for the Ice Brood Saga. None of them forced me into 10 man content at all and I don't like it.

    This doesn't encourage me to do more, it encourages me to do less.

  • Zok.4956Zok.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2020

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Well we just wiped on the Boneskinner and half the group left.

    Fraenir of Jormag
    Elemental Elegy
    Fraenir Frolic*
    High Shaman, High Stakes*

    Voice and Claw
    Break It Up
    Flawless Fallen*
    Kodan Dodger*

    Boneskinner
    Flickering Light
    Deathless Hunt*
    Hold onto the Light*

    Whisper of Jormag
    Reflections in the Ice
    Vortex, Interrupted
    Legendary Whisper of Jormag*
    Slither-less*
    Whisper Boxing*

    Sanctifier*

    The Strike Mission achievements, those with * require completion, the others do not. You need 37 achievements to complete the meta, 45 are available total in Shadow in the Ice, 15 Achievements are inside Strike Missions. This means you need 7 achievements from strike missions to complete the meta.

    Fraenir of Jormag is a very easy encounter and the achievements there are also relatively easy. The Voice and Claw is a bit more difficult encounter, but still not really hard. Sanctifier can be completed by killing the Fraenir and Kodan 20 times. That's 7 achievements without ever touching the harder Strike Missions.

    Now, if you find some of the Fraenir or Kodan achievements hard to complete you have the following options:
    Reflections in the Ice on the Whisper of Jormag is almost a freebie, Vortex Interrupted is also very much doable provided the team has unlocked the proper mastery, you will get enough vortexes before he reaches the harder parts of the fight. Both of these aren't hard to acquire and they do not demand killing the boss, get a team of 10 randoms (to more easily break the bar) and slowly lower his health while finishing the 2 achievements. Flickering Light can be completed without joining a group (as you did) but I'd suggest going there with a group anyway, I think that's a harder one to solo or do in a random group.

    There is enough achievements to finish without entering the Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag missions, and in case it is required, you don't need to kill them to progress.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Well we just wiped on the Boneskinner and half the group left.

    Fraenir of Jormag
    Elemental Elegy
    Fraenir Frolic*
    High Shaman, High Stakes*

    Voice and Claw
    Break It Up
    Flawless Fallen*
    Kodan Dodger*

    Boneskinner
    Flickering Light
    Deathless Hunt*
    Hold onto the Light*

    Whisper of Jormag
    Reflections in the Ice
    Vortex, Interrupted
    Legendary Whisper of Jormag*
    Slither-less*
    Whisper Boxing*

    Sanctifier*

    The Strike Mission achievements, those with * require completion, the others do not. You need 37 achievements to complete the meta, 45 are available total in Shadow in the Ice, 15 Achievements are inside Strike Missions. This means you need 7 achievements from strike missions to complete the meta.

    Fraenir of Jormag is a very easy encounter and the achievements there are also relatively easy. The Voice and Claw is a bit more difficult encounter, but still not really hard. Sanctifier can be completed by killing the Fraenir and Kodan 20 times. That's 7 achievements without ever touching the harder Strike Missions.

    Now, if you find some of the Fraenir or Kodan achievements hard to complete you have the following options:
    Reflections in the Ice on the Whisper of Jormag is almost a freebie, Vortex Interrupted is also very much doable provided the team has unlocked the proper mastery, you will get enough vortexes before he reaches the harder parts of the fight. Both of these aren't hard to acquire and they do not demand killing the boss, get a team of 10 randoms (to more easily break the bar) and slowly lower his health while finishing the 2 achievements. Flickering Light can be completed without joining a group (as you did) but I'd suggest going there with a group anyway, I think that's a harder one to solo or do in a random group.

    There is enough achievements to finish without entering the Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag missions, and in case it is required, you don't need to kill them to progress.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Well we just wiped on the Boneskinner and half the group left.

    Fraenir of Jormag
    Elemental Elegy
    Fraenir Frolic*
    High Shaman, High Stakes*

    Voice and Claw
    Break It Up
    Flawless Fallen*
    Kodan Dodger*

    Boneskinner
    Flickering Light
    Deathless Hunt*
    Hold onto the Light*

    Whisper of Jormag
    Reflections in the Ice
    Vortex, Interrupted
    Legendary Whisper of Jormag*
    Slither-less*
    Whisper Boxing*

    Sanctifier*

    The Strike Mission achievements, those with * require completion, the others do not. You need 37 achievements to complete the meta, 45 are available total in Shadow in the Ice, 15 Achievements are inside Strike Missions. This means you need 7 achievements from strike missions to complete the meta.

    Fraenir of Jormag is a very easy encounter and the achievements there are also relatively easy. The Voice and Claw is a bit more difficult encounter, but still not really hard. Sanctifier can be completed by killing the Fraenir and Kodan 20 times. That's 7 achievements without ever touching the harder Strike Missions.

    Now, if you find some of the Fraenir or Kodan achievements hard to complete you have the following options:
    Reflections in the Ice on the Whisper of Jormag is almost a freebie, Vortex Interrupted is also very much doable provided the team has unlocked the proper mastery, you will get enough vortexes before he reaches the harder parts of the fight. Both of these aren't hard to acquire and they do not demand killing the boss, get a team of 10 randoms (to more easily break the bar) and slowly lower his health while finishing the 2 achievements. Flickering Light can be completed without joining a group (as you did) but I'd suggest going there with a group anyway, I think that's a harder one to solo or do in a random group.

    There is enough achievements to finish without entering the Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag missions, and in case it is required, you don't need to kill them to progress.

    OKay you're still not seeing what I'm seeing so I'll try again.

    This specific round, sure you can get a bunch of them and cheeze some of them and in general make do. But I don't play games to make do. Right now, at this moment,. doing either of those strike missions even five times sours me from teh game. I don't LIKE the content. I don't want to do the content. I don't think I should have to. I have never had to do that content before.

    You're saying this time we can get away with this, but that's all we're really doing. Getting away with it. This time. And I think that's a bad way to run a railroad. You seeem to be thinking I CAN'T get the meta. I know I CAN get the meta. It's a totally horrid process for me that was never a horrid process before. It turns me off from the game and makes me not want to play it.

    There are at least two parallel discussions mixed:

    A: Is including Strike Mission Achievements as a Required Part of the Zone Meta a good or bad game design choice?
    B: What could be the easierst way to "cheese" through strikes to still get the meta achievement?

    I think the OP was initially talking about (A), but some parts of the discussion went into (B) like "completing is possible, so it can not be a bad game design choice".

    About A:

    We really do not know why Anet included the strike achievements as a required part of the zone meta. It was maybe because of their plan to push strike missions, it was maybe because just some dev wanted to increase the participation numbers of strikes (to justify his idea/work to his boss….), it could be an error (because two episodes now share the same map and it it looks like they splitted one episode into two during development), it could be that Anet just tested, how far they can go until there is uproar from players, etc.

    Whatever reasons Anet had for doing it, I think it is a bad design choice that Anet did not allow alternative ways (without strike mission achievements) to complete the zone-meta and I also think it is a bad design choice that PvP and WvW players also have to do this now for the meta-achievement-loot (even if its just a silly emote ATM) because there is no PvP/WvW reward track for this episode.

    A question for the players who think it is a good design choice to include the strikes as a requirement in the zone-meta-achievement: What harm would be done to the game, if Anet would reduce the achievement count of the required achievements for the zone-meta and would add PvP and WvW reward tracks for this episode?

    https://www.gw2gh.com/ - A GW2-Guild-Hall.
    Register and check your guild leaderboard to see who is the best in your guild and who finished achievements first.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    If you make the gap of mechanical skill smaller both parties can get some meaningfull experience from the boss fight.

    Yes. Unfortunately, this game cannot make that gap smaller. It would require not things like Strikes, but actual mechanical changes to the things that are the reason behind such a big effectiveness disparity. And those changes would need to be way bigger than what the game can afford to do now. I mean, we're talking now not about the expac level changes, but about something on the level of "Gw2 Remake" or "GW3". So, major rewrite of combat/class/gear/build system.

    Maybe, i mean the new player achievement thing might help a little. I do think some things can be done without having to rewrite the basis of the game.

    I agree that strikes alone won't help on their one. They might give motivation though and can improve purely mechanical skill.

    In the end, to me the point of vayne i responded to had more to do with the fact that he dismissed wanting player to be mechanical better with wanting them into raids.
    Which is not the same thing, and wanting your playerbase to be mechanical better should not be seen as a bad thing.

    Edit: My standard outlook of gamedesign is quite omnivorous. I personaly think a game should strive to let people experience as much of its content as possible. i wouldn't mind their too be pvp and WvW achievements with the meta , even if i don't enjoy those mode personally, if that were parts that where released with the episode. I understand that lots of people wouldn't want such a thing so i won't advocate for it. This was more to explain where my views come from. And my intent is to let as much people enjoy the content, which means you can't just make it for one side( as far a their are sides here.)

    And yet again, my issue isn't including achievements for different content, but moving the bar on existing content that people have been doing for ages. Let's pretended they changed normal dailies so you had to do a dungeon or stuff in a dungeon. Could you imagine the outcry. Zone metas aren't new. I did all the the ones for Season 3 and Season 4 and two so far for the Ice Brood Saga. None of them forced me into 10 man content at all and I don't like it.

    This doesn't encourage me to do more, it encourages me to do less.

    Thats why i wrote :
    I understand that lots of people wouldn't want such a thing so i won't advocate for it.

    I am aware that people are against it even if for some of these people they might find it fun. (these people aslo exist even if you are not one of them)
    And i am aware of the stigma that comes from some gamemodes/names.

    But the net benefit/detriment is something we can only know with metrics we don't have acces to. So while the critisism was usefull, i don't think what this discussion has become is.

    What does bother me is this us vs them mentality that this discussion shows.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    If you make the gap of mechanical skill smaller both parties can get some meaningfull experience from the boss fight.

    Yes. Unfortunately, this game cannot make that gap smaller. It would require not things like Strikes, but actual mechanical changes to the things that are the reason behind such a big effectiveness disparity. And those changes would need to be way bigger than what the game can afford to do now. I mean, we're talking now not about the expac level changes, but about something on the level of "Gw2 Remake" or "GW3". So, major rewrite of combat/class/gear/build system.

    Maybe, i mean the new player achievement thing might help a little. I do think some things can be done without having to rewrite the basis of the game.

    I agree that strikes alone won't help on their one. They might give motivation though and can improve purely mechanical skill.

    In the end, to me the point of vayne i responded to had more to do with the fact that he dismissed wanting player to be mechanical better with wanting them into raids.
    Which is not the same thing, and wanting your playerbase to be mechanical better should not be seen as a bad thing.

    Edit: My standard outlook of gamedesign is quite omnivorous. I personaly think a game should strive to let people experience as much of its content as possible. i wouldn't mind their too be pvp and WvW achievements with the meta , even if i don't enjoy those mode personally, if that were parts that where released with the episode. I understand that lots of people wouldn't want such a thing so i won't advocate for it. This was more to explain where my views come from. And my intent is to let as much people enjoy the content, which means you can't just make it for one side( as far a their are sides here.)

    And yet again, my issue isn't including achievements for different content, but moving the bar on existing content that people have been doing for ages. Let's pretended they changed normal dailies so you had to do a dungeon or stuff in a dungeon. Could you imagine the outcry. Zone metas aren't new. I did all the the ones for Season 3 and Season 4 and two so far for the Ice Brood Saga. None of them forced me into 10 man content at all and I don't like it.

    This doesn't encourage me to do more, it encourages me to do less.

    Thats why i wrote :
    I understand that lots of people wouldn't want such a thing so i won't advocate for it.

    I am aware that people are against it even if for some of these people they might find it fun. (these people aslo exist even if you are not one of them)
    And i am aware of the stigma that comes from some gamemodes/names.

    But the net benefit/detriment is something we can only know with metrics we don't have acces to. So while the critisism was usefull, i don't think what this discussion has become is.

    What does bother me is this us vs them mentality that this discussion shows.

    Well I'm annoyed because content I enjoyed previously was changed to appease what Anet already admitted was a small percentage of the player base. They need more people to get into raids to support raids. And I"m okay with that. Not sure why it needs to be part of the zone meta. I'd have been happy wtih a seperate achievement category. I didn't post this thread to start a conflict with raiders. I simply asked for a change to the meta that would be better for me. Why are raiders fighting to change a meta they don't particularly care about in the first place.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Well I'm annoyed because content I enjoyed previously was changed to appease what Anet already admitted was a small percentage of the player base.

    Anet admitted Raids have a small population. To my knowledge they never said anything about the Strike Mission population. If you think that Strike Missions are aimed at Raiders then you are simply wrong, they are the bridge to bring more people into Raids, not content for raiders. The majority of current Strike Missions are of a lower difficulty than both T1 fractals and the initial dungeons, so the audience they aim at is completely different to Raids.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    If you make the gap of mechanical skill smaller both parties can get some meaningfull experience from the boss fight.

    Yes. Unfortunately, this game cannot make that gap smaller. It would require not things like Strikes, but actual mechanical changes to the things that are the reason behind such a big effectiveness disparity. And those changes would need to be way bigger than what the game can afford to do now. I mean, we're talking now not about the expac level changes, but about something on the level of "Gw2 Remake" or "GW3". So, major rewrite of combat/class/gear/build system.

    Maybe, i mean the new player achievement thing might help a little. I do think some things can be done without having to rewrite the basis of the game.

    I agree that strikes alone won't help on their one. They might give motivation though and can improve purely mechanical skill.

    In the end, to me the point of vayne i responded to had more to do with the fact that he dismissed wanting player to be mechanical better with wanting them into raids.
    Which is not the same thing, and wanting your playerbase to be mechanical better should not be seen as a bad thing.

    Edit: My standard outlook of gamedesign is quite omnivorous. I personaly think a game should strive to let people experience as much of its content as possible. i wouldn't mind their too be pvp and WvW achievements with the meta , even if i don't enjoy those mode personally, if that were parts that where released with the episode. I understand that lots of people wouldn't want such a thing so i won't advocate for it. This was more to explain where my views come from. And my intent is to let as much people enjoy the content, which means you can't just make it for one side( as far a their are sides here.)

    And yet again, my issue isn't including achievements for different content, but moving the bar on existing content that people have been doing for ages. Let's pretended they changed normal dailies so you had to do a dungeon or stuff in a dungeon. Could you imagine the outcry. Zone metas aren't new. I did all the the ones for Season 3 and Season 4 and two so far for the Ice Brood Saga. None of them forced me into 10 man content at all and I don't like it.

    This doesn't encourage me to do more, it encourages me to do less.

    Thats why i wrote :
    I understand that lots of people wouldn't want such a thing so i won't advocate for it.

    I am aware that people are against it even if for some of these people they might find it fun. (these people aslo exist even if you are not one of them)
    And i am aware of the stigma that comes from some gamemodes/names.

    But the net benefit/detriment is something we can only know with metrics we don't have acces to. So while the critisism was usefull, i don't think what this discussion has become is.

    What does bother me is this us vs them mentality that this discussion shows.

    Well I'm annoyed because content I enjoyed previously was changed to appease what Anet already admitted was a small percentage of the player base. They need more people to get into raids to support raids. And I"m okay with that. Not sure why it needs to be part of the zone meta. I'd have been happy wtih a seperate achievement category. I didn't post this thread to start a conflict with raiders. I simply asked for a change to the meta that would be better for me. Why are raiders fighting to change a meta they don't particularly care about in the first place.

    Why are you under the impression they are fighting? Alot of people in this discussion already said they don't mind it being changed.

    You are mistaken if you think their aren't any raiders who care about the Meta achievement though. And what I have read was mostly people explaining why they consider it good gamedesign.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    If you make the gap of mechanical skill smaller both parties can get some meaningfull experience from the boss fight.

    Yes. Unfortunately, this game cannot make that gap smaller. It would require not things like Strikes, but actual mechanical changes to the things that are the reason behind such a big effectiveness disparity. And those changes would need to be way bigger than what the game can afford to do now. I mean, we're talking now not about the expac level changes, but about something on the level of "Gw2 Remake" or "GW3". So, major rewrite of combat/class/gear/build system.

    Maybe, i mean the new player achievement thing might help a little. I do think some things can be done without having to rewrite the basis of the game.

    Not much. You could probably try to teach players to cc, dodge, and to not stand in AoE markers. You might also try to teach them more complicated boss fight mechanics, but that's generally pointless. It doesn't matter how good in that regard players would be if the boss encounter is designed around personal dps of 12-15k but players are doing 2-4k. And the dps disparity is rooted in some core design features and can't be removed without at least adjusting those - which is definitely not something minor.

    I agree that strikes alone won't help on their one. They might give motivation though and can improve purely mechanical skill.

    Purely mechanical skill as in "players doing the boss mechanics"? Sure. Purely mechanical skill as "players playing their class better, getting better dps, better boon upkeep etc"? Nope, because Strikes do not teach that. There's absolutely zero information in strikes that might point out a player towards improvement in that direction. Well, apart from "You failed. Again.", which may tell the group that at least some players (if not all) did something wrong, but doesn't really say what that thing was, much less how to avoid it. Probably the most useful information it might give the player is "you should probably avoid strikes and other similar content", which is hardly what the devs want.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    If you make the gap of mechanical skill smaller both parties can get some meaningfull experience from the boss fight.

    Yes. Unfortunately, this game cannot make that gap smaller. It would require not things like Strikes, but actual mechanical changes to the things that are the reason behind such a big effectiveness disparity. And those changes would need to be way bigger than what the game can afford to do now. I mean, we're talking now not about the expac level changes, but about something on the level of "Gw2 Remake" or "GW3". So, major rewrite of combat/class/gear/build system.

    Maybe, i mean the new player achievement thing might help a little. I do think some things can be done without having to rewrite the basis of the game.

    Not much. You could probably try to teach players to cc, dodge, and to not stand in AoE markers. You might also try to teach them more complicated boss fight mechanics, but that's generally pointless. It doesn't matter how good in that regard players would be if the boss encounter is designed around personal dps of 12-15k but players are doing 2-4k. And the dps disparity is rooted in some core design features and can't be removed without at least adjusting those - which is definitely not something minor.

    is their a way to let people experience with some basics of buildcraft etc.? When my little brother started playing it took a really long time before he even knew what traits where etc.
    Wouldn't it already be quite usefull to let people know atleast the basics of all the gamesystems?

    I agree that strikes alone won't help on their one. They might give motivation though and can improve purely mechanical skill.

    Purely mechanical skill as in "players doing the boss mechanics"? Sure. Purely mechanical skill as "players playing their class better, getting better dps, better boon upkeep etc"? Nope, because Strikes do not teach that. There's absolutely zero information in strikes that might point out a player towards improvement in that direction. Well, apart from "You failed. Again.", which may tell the group that at least some players (if not all) did something wrong, but doesn't really say what that thing was, much less how to avoid it. Probably the most useful information it might give the player is "you should probably avoid strikes and other similar content", which is hardly what the devs want.

    Purely mechanical skill as in how to move to dodge AoE, to dodge and cc etc.

  • Zok.4956Zok.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2020

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    If you make the gap of mechanical skill smaller both parties can get some meaningfull experience from the boss fight.

    Yes. Unfortunately, this game cannot make that gap smaller. It would require not things like Strikes, but actual mechanical changes to the things that are the reason behind such a big effectiveness disparity. And those changes would need to be way bigger than what the game can afford to do now. I mean, we're talking now not about the expac level changes, but about something on the level of "Gw2 Remake" or "GW3". So, major rewrite of combat/class/gear/build system.

    Maybe, i mean the new player achievement thing might help a little. I do think some things can be done without having to rewrite the basis of the game.

    Not much. You could probably try to teach players to cc, dodge, and to not stand in AoE markers. You might also try to teach them more complicated boss fight mechanics, but that's generally pointless. It doesn't matter how good in that regard players would be if the boss encounter is designed around personal dps of 12-15k but players are doing 2-4k. And the dps disparity is rooted in some core design features and can't be removed without at least adjusting those - which is definitely not something minor.

    is their a way to let people experience with some basics of buildcraft etc.?

    The basic rules of build craft are :)
    1. A dead player does not do any DPS. If you die too often, put on more gear with defensive stats. After you have more experience, try to reduce the defensive stats a little, from time to time.
    2. A dead mob can not kill you .The more defensive stats you have, the longer it takes to kill mobs/bosses and the more the chances that you could get killed.
    3. In some challenging content you should not use gear with any defensive stats at all. But only if you already are able to position yourself in the fight (for example: go out of red circles, dont stand in front of a boss that makes a lot of cleave damage, etc..) and you know how to dodge, block etc.

    When my little brother started playing it took a really long time before he even knew what traits where etc.

    You and your little brother could go to the golem in the Special Forces Training Area that you can access from the Aerodrome in Lions Arch and you can experiment (and also practice rotation) a little with the golem.

    Then there are external websites like http://en.gw2skills.net/ where you can play with skills and gear-stats without buying/crafting gear and you can check the resulting stats, boons etc.

    And of course you can check build examples on https://metabattle.com or https://snowcrows.com/ and try do understand, why some of them are seen as good and what the build creator wanted to achieve with the build.

    Wouldn't it already be quite usefull to let people know atleast the basics of all the gamesystems?

    Yes it would be. But Anet failed with that big time. Even Anet devs do not understand the skills/traits/etc. in the different game modes fully. Thats why they make a balance patch on the live servers and then look at what the players aka guinea pigs sort out about what needs to be changed after the patch.

    EDITED: typo. guild craft -> buildcraft

    https://www.gw2gh.com/ - A GW2-Guild-Hall.
    Register and check your guild leaderboard to see who is the best in your guild and who finished achievements first.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zok.4956 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    If you make the gap of mechanical skill smaller both parties can get some meaningfull experience from the boss fight.

    Yes. Unfortunately, this game cannot make that gap smaller. It would require not things like Strikes, but actual mechanical changes to the things that are the reason behind such a big effectiveness disparity. And those changes would need to be way bigger than what the game can afford to do now. I mean, we're talking now not about the expac level changes, but about something on the level of "Gw2 Remake" or "GW3". So, major rewrite of combat/class/gear/build system.

    Maybe, i mean the new player achievement thing might help a little. I do think some things can be done without having to rewrite the basis of the game.

    Not much. You could probably try to teach players to cc, dodge, and to not stand in AoE markers. You might also try to teach them more complicated boss fight mechanics, but that's generally pointless. It doesn't matter how good in that regard players would be if the boss encounter is designed around personal dps of 12-15k but players are doing 2-4k. And the dps disparity is rooted in some core design features and can't be removed without at least adjusting those - which is definitely not something minor.

    is their a way to let people experience with some basics of buildcraft etc.?

    The basic rules of guild craft are :)
    1. A dead player does not do any DPS. If you die too often, put on more gear with defensive stats. After you have more experience, try to reduce the defensive stats a little, from time to time.
    2. A dead mob can not kill you .The more defensive stats you have, the longer it takes to kill mobs/bosses and the more the chances that you could get killed.
    3. In some challenging content you should not use gear with any defensive stats at all. But only if you already are able to position yourself in the fight (for example: go out of red circles, dont stand in front of a boss that makes a lot of cleave damage, etc..) and you know how to dodge, block etc.

    BUt how do you convey that to people?
    And your forgetting traits and how senergies work. :)

    When my little brother started playing it took a really long time before he even knew what traits where etc.

    You and your little brother could go to the golem in the Special Forces Training Area that you can access from the Aerodrome in Lions Arch and you can experiment (and also practice rotation) a little with the golem.

    Then there are external websites like http://en.gw2skills.net/ where you can play with skills and gear-stats without buying/crafting gear and you can check the resulting stats, boons etc.

    And of course you can check build examples on https://metabattle.com or https://snowcrows.com/ and try do understand, why some of them are seen as good and what the build creator wanted to achieve with the build.

    Yes but those are not things players do directly at the beginning.

    Wouldn't it already be quite usefull to let people know atleast the basics of all the gamesystems?

    Yes it would be. But Anet failed with that big time. Even Anet devs do not understand the skills/traits/etc. in the different game modes fully. Thats why they make a balance patch on the live servers and then look at what the players aka guinea pigs sort out about what needs to be changed after the patch.

  • Zok.4956Zok.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Zok.4956 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    If you make the gap of mechanical skill smaller both parties can get some meaningfull experience from the boss fight.

    Yes. Unfortunately, this game cannot make that gap smaller. It would require not things like Strikes, but actual mechanical changes to the things that are the reason behind such a big effectiveness disparity. And those changes would need to be way bigger than what the game can afford to do now. I mean, we're talking now not about the expac level changes, but about something on the level of "Gw2 Remake" or "GW3". So, major rewrite of combat/class/gear/build system.

    Maybe, i mean the new player achievement thing might help a little. I do think some things can be done without having to rewrite the basis of the game.

    Not much. You could probably try to teach players to cc, dodge, and to not stand in AoE markers. You might also try to teach them more complicated boss fight mechanics, but that's generally pointless. It doesn't matter how good in that regard players would be if the boss encounter is designed around personal dps of 12-15k but players are doing 2-4k. And the dps disparity is rooted in some core design features and can't be removed without at least adjusting those - which is definitely not something minor.

    is their a way to let people experience with some basics of buildcraft etc.?

    The basic rules of build craft are :)
    1. A dead player does not do any DPS. If you die too often, put on more gear with defensive stats. After you have more experience, try to reduce the defensive stats a little, from time to time.
    2. A dead mob can not kill you .The more defensive stats you have, the longer it takes to kill mobs/bosses and the more the chances that you could get killed.
    3. In some challenging content you should not use gear with any defensive stats at all. But only if you already are able to position yourself in the fight (for example: go out of red circles, dont stand in front of a boss that makes a lot of cleave damage, etc..) and you know how to dodge, block etc.

    BUt how do you convey that to people?

    (1) and (2) could be experienced in a little tutorial instance. where a player should kill a (small) boss. In the instance is a slider between "offensive" and "defensive", and the slider changes the gear stats of the player. Add that with an achievement, where the players has to kill the boss with "offensive" "defensive" and "in between" slider settings and make the fight somehow fun.

    And your forgetting traits and how senergies work. :)

    Thats when the mess of this convoluted system, that Anet has created, starts. I do not have a solution for that and I would replace it completely (which will not happen, of course).

    When my little brother started playing it took a really long time before he even knew what traits where etc.

    You and your little brother could go to the golem in the Special Forces Training Area that you can access from the Aerodrome in Lions Arch and you can experiment (and also practice rotation) a little with the golem.

    Then there are external websites like http://en.gw2skills.net/ where you can play with skills and gear-stats without buying/crafting gear and you can check the resulting stats, boons etc.

    And of course you can check build examples on https://metabattle.com or https://snowcrows.com/ and try do understand, why some of them are seen as good and what the build creator wanted to achieve with the build.

    Yes but those are not things players do directly at the beginning.

    I agree.

    https://www.gw2gh.com/ - A GW2-Guild-Hall.
    Register and check your guild leaderboard to see who is the best in your guild and who finished achievements first.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @WendyB.1650 said:
    Requiring this is already driving some of the casuals away. Whatever your definition of casual is, this is mine; A casual player is one who plays mainly in the PVE world getting levels, achievements and exploring without having to have 'That build with your rotations down to achieve this much DPS' A;ready there are strike LFG's that are saying they are running dps monitor and to you have this or that. I am a casual player who also is an achievement hunter. Yes, I play a lot, but no I am not good at rotations,
    Builds, and Raid mechanics. YET before this I have always been able to achieve the meta map achievement. Yes other maps have had jump puzzles and other things that were bothersome, but you usually could do other map achievements to get it and is not you could get a group of regular 'casual' players to help you get through, but with the newer Strikes they have made it so that just getting a group together that can complete it is hard.

    My husband quit for 4 years after HoT came out. I got him wto come back lately to play yet he has only completed story in the new area and ran around for a few min. I tried to get him to do a strike and he said he would rather go play another game than ever try that kitten where he would feel inferior if we had to carrying him. Why pplay a game if they force you to feel inferior he asked me. He and I are older and just not so coordinated.

    They have already basically banned us from Legendary Armor since if I ever want to get it I would have to do paid Raids since there is no way I doing an LFG for it. I have joined a wonderful WvW group that does not care about builds and stuff but it will be a long hall to 2000 to get that Legendary Armor and most casual players will not take the route I am.

    This is the game failing to raise you as a player sadly. The mechanical skill required to do raids is not that high as there are rotations out there where you only hit 2 buttons to do sufficient raid dps. The jump from open world to raids is like the jump from first grade to fifth grade. No ones going to say fifth grade is hard but the game does nothing to fill in second, third, and fourth grade for you so it feels like it's hard. The game also has a bunch of noob traps when it comes to trait and gear choices and does nothing to call out that you might be going down the wrong path.

    See I don't understand this at all. The game isn't failing to raise me as a player because I'm not interested in being raised as a player. You seem to think everyone who plays a sport wants to compete at that sport. SOme people play professional ball, some people play amateur ball and some people just want to have a catch and there's nothing wrong with that. The ball wasn't designed for only competitive sports. It was designed to enjoy yourself and everyone enjoys themselves differently. Most people don't walk up to two people playing catch and say you're doing it wrong. It would be a weird thing to say.

    You're making it sound like somehow we should all strive to be great at a game that many of us play just to relax. Have some laughs with friends. You're making it sound like I couldn't do raids if I wanted to but I can do them. I have no interest in them. I don't want to do them. I don't need to get better at the game. I need the game to stop telling me to play baseball when I want to have a catch.

    The more rewards they lock behind content i have no interest in the less this game is my game. The more they make stuff like strike missions part of something like zone metas the less this game and that zone interests me, because that's not my interest. I've run T4 fractals. I've run all the dungeons many many times. I'm not interested in Strike Missions. I'm not interested in raids. The game hasn't failed to raise me as a player. Hell raids didn't even exist in this game for the first 3.5 years and for the first 3.5 years I did everything in the game. But they added something I'm not interested in, and now they're adding something I'm not interested in to try to interest me in something I'm already not interested in.

    I can look up a build on snowcrows and meta battle. I can practice a rotation on the practice dummy. I can watch a raid video. I have no interest in doing any of it. Not even a little. Even if it makes me a "better" player. I'd rather have a catch.

    Was literally not replying to you at all. The post I was replying to expressed frustrations at being locked out of raids due to having slower reflexes and rotations.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Well I'm annoyed because content I enjoyed previously was changed to appease what Anet already admitted was a small percentage of the player base.

    Anet admitted Raids have a small population. To my knowledge they never said anything about the Strike Mission population. If you think that Strike Missions are aimed at Raiders then you are simply wrong, they are the bridge to bring more people into Raids, not content for raiders. The majority of current Strike Missions are of a lower difficulty than both T1 fractals and the initial dungeons, so the audience they aim at is completely different to Raids.

    They're aimed at increasing the population of raids, as per Anet. What makes you think that there's a difference in the mind if people who don't like raids, have already judged raids and never intend to raid. This ls like saying, we're changing the nature of the movies on my channel to have more movies of a type you don't like to get you into movies you don't want to watch. That channel then becomes less your channel. Less a channel you want to watch. If you bought the Hallmark Channel and they started playing more horror to get people who watch romance and drama into harder core stuff, those people would complain. Sure they content isn't for raiders. It's not for me either. Or anyone I know in my guild. Or my wife. Or the 20 or 30 people I play with every week. None of us are sitting there going wow this strike mission content is great, I'd like more of it. We're all like kitten, this is something we're not interested in that we have to do. The three or four people in my guild who don't mind them are the people who already raid. The rest of us tried and few and thought pass. But you can't pass. Shrugs.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Well I'm annoyed because content I enjoyed previously was changed to appease what Anet already admitted was a small percentage of the player base.

    Anet admitted Raids have a small population. To my knowledge they never said anything about the Strike Mission population. If you think that Strike Missions are aimed at Raiders then you are simply wrong, they are the bridge to bring more people into Raids, not content for raiders. The majority of current Strike Missions are of a lower difficulty than both T1 fractals and the initial dungeons, so the audience they aim at is completely different to Raids.

    They're aimed at increasing the population of raids, as per Anet. What makes you think that there's a difference in the mind if people who don't like raids, have already judged raids and never intend to raid. This ls like saying, we're changing the nature of the movies on my channel to have more movies of a type you don't like to get you into movies you don't want to watch. That channel then becomes less your channel. Less a channel you want to watch. If you bought the Hallmark Channel and they started playing more horror to get people who watch romance and drama into harder core stuff, those people would complain. Sure they content isn't for raiders. It's not for me either. Or anyone I know in my guild. Or my wife. Or the 20 or 30 people I play with every week. None of us are sitting there going wow this strike mission content is great, I'd like more of it. We're all like kitten, this is something we're not interested in that we have to do.

    As per Anet they are aimed at increasing the population of Raids, therefore not aimed at the Raid population. They are aimed to bring -new- people into Raids. If they wanted to really increase the population of Raids, with content aimed at Raiders, they'd make more Raids.

    The three or four people in my guild who don't mind them are the people who already raid. The rest of us tried and few and thought pass. But you can't pass. Shrugs.

    Yes because they already Raid, here you go again as if Strike Missions is content for Raiders. So no other players in your guild enjoy T1 fractals or dungeons or guild missions? The Fraenir of Jormag has a much lower difficulty than any T1 Fractal or Dungeon and is a lot easier than a lot of the Bounties. Anyone that can play T1 fractals, dungeons or guild bounties can defeat the Fraenir. The Voice and Claw takes some more, but it IS easier than most T2 Fractals and more than half the dungeons.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Well I'm annoyed because content I enjoyed previously was changed to appease what Anet already admitted was a small percentage of the player base.

    Anet admitted Raids have a small population. To my knowledge they never said anything about the Strike Mission population. If you think that Strike Missions are aimed at Raiders then you are simply wrong, they are the bridge to bring more people into Raids, not content for raiders. The majority of current Strike Missions are of a lower difficulty than both T1 fractals and the initial dungeons, so the audience they aim at is completely different to Raids.

    They're aimed at increasing the population of raids, as per Anet. What makes you think that there's a difference in the mind if people who don't like raids, have already judged raids and never intend to raid. This ls like saying, we're changing the nature of the movies on my channel to have more movies of a type you don't like to get you into movies you don't want to watch. That channel then becomes less your channel. Less a channel you want to watch. If you bought the Hallmark Channel and they started playing more horror to get people who watch romance and drama into harder core stuff, those people would complain. Sure they content isn't for raiders. It's not for me either. Or anyone I know in my guild. Or my wife. Or the 20 or 30 people I play with every week. None of us are sitting there going wow this strike mission content is great, I'd like more of it. We're all like kitten, this is something we're not interested in that we have to do.

    As per Anet they are aimed at increasing the population of Raids, therefore not aimed at the Raid population. They are aimed to bring -new- people into Raids. If they wanted to really increase the population of Raids, with content aimed at Raiders, they'd make more Raids.

    The three or four people in my guild who don't mind them are the people who already raid. The rest of us tried and few and thought pass. But you can't pass. Shrugs.

    Yes because they already Raid, here you go again as if Strike Missions is content for Raiders. So no other players in your guild enjoy T1 fractals or dungeons or guild missions? The Fraenir of Jormag has a much lower difficulty than any T1 Fractal or Dungeon and is a lot easier than a lot of the Bounties. Anyone that can play T1 fractals, dungeons or guild bounties can defeat the Fraenir. The Voice and Claw takes some more, but it IS easier than most T2 Fractals and more than half the dungeons.

    Sorry but I"m saying my guild has no interest in them at all, but they're inserting them into content many of us regularly do. They're designed to increase particiipation in raids which many of us have no interest in doing.

    What's the difference to me, and those guilides, if they're not made for raiders but put in the game to get people to raid and we're not enjoying them or not interested in them? To me, there is no difference at all. They put these in the game to increase the participation in raids. They're raid training wheels. Raid-like content as they get harder and I've tried the harder ones and they are.

    So to me, this is changing my game for raiders. Because they wouldn't need to do this is raids weren't in the game at all. They added this as a pathway to raids. Whether the content is for raiders or easier or harder isn't my concern. My concern it makes the game less enjoyable for me and others I know. Others who like to work on meta achievements in new zones.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Raid-like content as they get harder and I've tried the harder ones and they are.

    Did you try the easier ones? They aren't any harder than T1 fractals and most dungeons. Also, they are all you need to finish the meta.

    Because they wouldn't need to do this is raids weren't in the game at all.

    We'd have more fractals and/or dungeons if Raids weren't in the game at all. Something similar in challenge as Strike Missions.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Raid-like content as they get harder and I've tried the harder ones and they are.

    Did you try the easier ones? They aren't any harder than T1 fractals and most dungeons. Also, they are all you need to finish the meta.

    Because they wouldn't need to do this is raids weren't in the game at all.

    We'd have more fractals and/or dungeons if Raids weren't in the game at all. Something similar in challenge as Strike Missions.

    Okay first of all, let's talk about casual players. I'll wager most casual players never come to the forums at all. They never go to reddit. If they do they don't spend a long time here. Most casual players log into the game and play the game.. You keep asking me if I did this or I did that. No. I listen to people all day who tried a strike mission not realizing how different they were, had a bad experience and walked away without any intention of going back. You can't just throw a bunch of strike missions into a game with greatly varying difficulties if you're not going to include a breadcrumb trail.

    The whole implemention of this might work for people who do research but many casuals don't want to do research. They just want to play.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2020

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Raid-like content as they get harder and I've tried the harder ones and they are.

    Did you try the easier ones? They aren't any harder than T1 fractals and most dungeons. Also, they are all you need to finish the meta.

    Because they wouldn't need to do this is raids weren't in the game at all.

    We'd have more fractals and/or dungeons if Raids weren't in the game at all. Something similar in challenge as Strike Missions.

    Okay first of all, let's talk about casual players. I'll wager most casual players never come to the forums at all. They never go to reddit. If they do they don't spend a long time here. Most casual players log into the game and play the game.. You keep asking me if I did this or I did that. No. I listen to people all day who tried a strike mission not realizing how different they were, had a bad experience and walked away without any intention of going back. You can't just throw a bunch of strike missions into a game with greatly varying difficulties if you're not going to include a breadcrumb trail.

    That's completely different issue with Strike Missions as there is no indicator of which one is easy and which one is hard. But there is an easy solution for that: Arenanet adds a little text next to each Strike Missions indicating which one is hard and which one is easy, similar to how the tiers of Fractals work. That way these people who tried Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag as their first ever Strike will see that they are "tough encounters" and instead opt to play the "easy encounters".

    And I'm asking because repeatedly you are talking as if Strikes are Raids and raid content, when more than half of them are on same level as Fractals and Dungeons. It's weird to think that someone that has run Ascalonian Catacombs story mode (the first dungeon in the game) or a Fractal like T1 Cliffside will have an issue with either of the easy Strike Missions. And those are more than enough to finish the meta.

    Most casual players log into the game and play the game..

    So you are saying that those casual players that never go outside the game finish the zone meta? That's impressive.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Well I'm annoyed because content I enjoyed previously was changed to appease what Anet already admitted was a small percentage of the player base.

    Anet admitted Raids have a small population. To my knowledge they never said anything about the Strike Mission population. If you think that Strike Missions are aimed at Raiders then you are simply wrong, they are the bridge to bring more people into Raids, not content for raiders. The majority of current Strike Missions are of a lower difficulty than both T1 fractals and the initial dungeons, so the audience they aim at is completely different to Raids.

    They're aimed at increasing the population of raids, as per Anet. What makes you think that there's a difference in the mind if people who don't like raids, have already judged raids and never intend to raid. This ls like saying, we're changing the nature of the movies on my channel to have more movies of a type you don't like to get you into movies you don't want to watch. That channel then becomes less your channel. Less a channel you want to watch. If you bought the Hallmark Channel and they started playing more horror to get people who watch romance and drama into harder core stuff, those people would complain. Sure they content isn't for raiders. It's not for me either. Or anyone I know in my guild. Or my wife. Or the 20 or 30 people I play with every week. None of us are sitting there going wow this strike mission content is great, I'd like more of it. We're all like kitten, this is something we're not interested in that we have to do. The three or four people in my guild who don't mind them are the people who already raid. The rest of us tried and few and thought pass. But you can't pass. Shrugs.

    About the film analogy. What if they introduced some romances with a few horror points? Or some monster romance (The Shape of Water for example).

    These would still fall perfectly fine within the parameters of the channel. and would allow them to slowly play a different movie from time to time. Or maybe they just want to air these movies.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Well I'm annoyed because content I enjoyed previously was changed to appease what Anet already admitted was a small percentage of the player base.

    Anet admitted Raids have a small population. To my knowledge they never said anything about the Strike Mission population. If you think that Strike Missions are aimed at Raiders then you are simply wrong, they are the bridge to bring more people into Raids, not content for raiders. The majority of current Strike Missions are of a lower difficulty than both T1 fractals and the initial dungeons, so the audience they aim at is completely different to Raids.

    They're aimed at increasing the population of raids, as per Anet. What makes you think that there's a difference in the mind if people who don't like raids, have already judged raids and never intend to raid. This ls like saying, we're changing the nature of the movies on my channel to have more movies of a type you don't like to get you into movies you don't want to watch. That channel then becomes less your channel. Less a channel you want to watch. If you bought the Hallmark Channel and they started playing more horror to get people who watch romance and drama into harder core stuff, those people would complain. Sure they content isn't for raiders. It's not for me either. Or anyone I know in my guild. Or my wife. Or the 20 or 30 people I play with every week. None of us are sitting there going wow this strike mission content is great, I'd like more of it. We're all like kitten, this is something we're not interested in that we have to do. The three or four people in my guild who don't mind them are the people who already raid. The rest of us tried and few and thought pass. But you can't pass. Shrugs.

    About the film analogy. What if they introduced some romances with a few horror points? Or some monster romance (The Shape of Water for example).

    These would still fall perfectly fine within the parameters of the channel. and would allow them to slowly play a different movie from time to time. Or maybe they just want to air these movies.

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Well I'm annoyed because content I enjoyed previously was changed to appease what Anet already admitted was a small percentage of the player base.

    Anet admitted Raids have a small population. To my knowledge they never said anything about the Strike Mission population. If you think that Strike Missions are aimed at Raiders then you are simply wrong, they are the bridge to bring more people into Raids, not content for raiders. The majority of current Strike Missions are of a lower difficulty than both T1 fractals and the initial dungeons, so the audience they aim at is completely different to Raids.

    They're aimed at increasing the population of raids, as per Anet. What makes you think that there's a difference in the mind if people who don't like raids, have already judged raids and never intend to raid. This ls like saying, we're changing the nature of the movies on my channel to have more movies of a type you don't like to get you into movies you don't want to watch. That channel then becomes less your channel. Less a channel you want to watch. If you bought the Hallmark Channel and they started playing more horror to get people who watch romance and drama into harder core stuff, those people would complain. Sure they content isn't for raiders. It's not for me either. Or anyone I know in my guild. Or my wife. Or the 20 or 30 people I play with every week. None of us are sitting there going wow this strike mission content is great, I'd like more of it. We're all like kitten, this is something we're not interested in that we have to do. The three or four people in my guild who don't mind them are the people who already raid. The rest of us tried and few and thought pass. But you can't pass. Shrugs.

    About the film analogy. What if they introduced some romances with a few horror points? Or some monster romance (The Shape of Water for example).

    These would still fall perfectly fine within the parameters of the channel. and would allow them to slowly play a different movie from time to time. Or maybe they just want to air these movies.

    Now you're talking in my genre. THe business I was in. THe same people that read romance, don't read dark romance. It's a completely different niche. While cross genre offerings do exist, and they're more common now than ever, it doesn't change people's basic likes and dislikes. A person who likes dark fiction might read a dark romance. A person who only likes happy endings is only going to like happy endings. I've had to market this stuff myself and it's very complicated.

    You're not going to get most casuals into raids in my opinion because that's not the kind of content most casuals are interested in.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Raid-like content as they get harder and I've tried the harder ones and they are.

    Did you try the easier ones? They aren't any harder than T1 fractals and most dungeons. Also, they are all you need to finish the meta.

    Because they wouldn't need to do this is raids weren't in the game at all.

    We'd have more fractals and/or dungeons if Raids weren't in the game at all. Something similar in challenge as Strike Missions.

    Okay first of all, let's talk about casual players. I'll wager most casual players never come to the forums at all. They never go to reddit. If they do they don't spend a long time here. Most casual players log into the game and play the game.. You keep asking me if I did this or I did that. No. I listen to people all day who tried a strike mission not realizing how different they were, had a bad experience and walked away without any intention of going back. You can't just throw a bunch of strike missions into a game with greatly varying difficulties if you're not going to include a breadcrumb trail.

    That's completely different issue with Strike Missions as there is no indicator of which one is easy and which one is hard. But there is an easy solution for that: Arenanet adds a little text next to each Strike Missions indicating which one is hard and which one is easy, similar to how the tiers of Fractals work. That way these people who tried Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag as their first ever Strike will see that they are "tough encounters" and instead opt to play the "easy encounters".

    And I'm asking because repeatedly you are talking as if Strikes are Raids and raid content, when more than half of them are on same level as Fractals and Dungeons. It's weird to think that someone that has run Ascalonian Catacombs story mode (the first dungeon in the game) or a Fractal like T1 Cliffside will have an issue with either of the easy Strike Missions. And those are more than enough to finish the meta.

    Most casual players log into the game and play the game..

    So you are saying that those casual players that never go outside the game finish the zone meta? That's impressive.

    Actually many people just play with their guild to get it done. That's what we do. Someone probably does look it up, then leads a bunch of other people around.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Raid-like content as they get harder and I've tried the harder ones and they are.

    Did you try the easier ones? They aren't any harder than T1 fractals and most dungeons. Also, they are all you need to finish the meta.

    Because they wouldn't need to do this is raids weren't in the game at all.

    We'd have more fractals and/or dungeons if Raids weren't in the game at all. Something similar in challenge as Strike Missions.

    Okay first of all, let's talk about casual players. I'll wager most casual players never come to the forums at all. They never go to reddit. If they do they don't spend a long time here. Most casual players log into the game and play the game.. You keep asking me if I did this or I did that. No. I listen to people all day who tried a strike mission not realizing how different they were, had a bad experience and walked away without any intention of going back. You can't just throw a bunch of strike missions into a game with greatly varying difficulties if you're not going to include a breadcrumb trail.

    That's completely different issue with Strike Missions as there is no indicator of which one is easy and which one is hard. But there is an easy solution for that: Arenanet adds a little text next to each Strike Missions indicating which one is hard and which one is easy, similar to how the tiers of Fractals work. That way these people who tried Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag as their first ever Strike will see that they are "tough encounters" and instead opt to play the "easy encounters".

    And I'm asking because repeatedly you are talking as if Strikes are Raids and raid content, when more than half of them are on same level as Fractals and Dungeons. It's weird to think that someone that has run Ascalonian Catacombs story mode (the first dungeon in the game) or a Fractal like T1 Cliffside will have an issue with either of the easy Strike Missions. And those are more than enough to finish the meta.

    Most casual players log into the game and play the game..

    So you are saying that those casual players that never go outside the game finish the zone meta? That's impressive.

    Actually many people just play with their guild to get it done. That's what we do. Someone probably does look it up, then leads a bunch of other people around.

    How is it then that someone didn't read which Strike Missions are easier than others to direct the rest of the players there? And also read about the achievements in the harder ones that are actually freebies.

    Strike Missions need some way to tell players which ones are easy and which ones are hard, that will solve the problem of players walking into the harder ones then getting a bad experience. Meanwhile, for those going for the meta achievement, the one that reads the achievements can direct the rest of the players properly and lead them to the easy ones, telling them to avoid the harder ones.

    Once players realize (or are told) that they can finish the meta by completing missions that are similar to fractals/dungeons then this problem will be severely diminished. Leaving the only ones that will have an issue, those that have a problem with any kind of instanced content, including running T1 fractals and dungeons. The next question would be how many players go for meta achievements and actively avoid all forms of instanced content? Hard to answer, but hopefully Arenanet has the answer and will adjust future zone meta achievements accordingly.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Raid-like content as they get harder and I've tried the harder ones and they are.

    Did you try the easier ones? They aren't any harder than T1 fractals and most dungeons. Also, they are all you need to finish the meta.

    Because they wouldn't need to do this is raids weren't in the game at all.

    We'd have more fractals and/or dungeons if Raids weren't in the game at all. Something similar in challenge as Strike Missions.

    Okay first of all, let's talk about casual players. I'll wager most casual players never come to the forums at all. They never go to reddit. If they do they don't spend a long time here. Most casual players log into the game and play the game.. You keep asking me if I did this or I did that. No. I listen to people all day who tried a strike mission not realizing how different they were, had a bad experience and walked away without any intention of going back. You can't just throw a bunch of strike missions into a game with greatly varying difficulties if you're not going to include a breadcrumb trail.

    That's completely different issue with Strike Missions as there is no indicator of which one is easy and which one is hard. But there is an easy solution for that: Arenanet adds a little text next to each Strike Missions indicating which one is hard and which one is easy, similar to how the tiers of Fractals work. That way these people who tried Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag as their first ever Strike will see that they are "tough encounters" and instead opt to play the "easy encounters".

    And I'm asking because repeatedly you are talking as if Strikes are Raids and raid content, when more than half of them are on same level as Fractals and Dungeons. It's weird to think that someone that has run Ascalonian Catacombs story mode (the first dungeon in the game) or a Fractal like T1 Cliffside will have an issue with either of the easy Strike Missions. And those are more than enough to finish the meta.

    Most casual players log into the game and play the game..

    So you are saying that those casual players that never go outside the game finish the zone meta? That's impressive.

    Actually many people just play with their guild to get it done. That's what we do. Someone probably does look it up, then leads a bunch of other people around.

    How is it then that someone didn't read which Strike Missions are easier than others to direct the rest of the players there? And also read about the achievements in the harder ones that are actually freebies.

    Strike Missions need some way to tell players which ones are easy and which ones are hard, that will solve the problem of players walking into the harder ones then getting a bad experience. Meanwhile, for those going for the meta achievement, the one that reads the achievements can direct the rest of the players properly and lead them to the easy ones, telling them to avoid the harder ones.

    Once players realize (or are told) that they can finish the meta by completing missions that are similar to fractals/dungeons then this problem will be severely diminished. Leaving the only ones that will have an issue, those that have a problem with any kind of instanced content, including running T1 fractals and dungeons. The next question would be how many players go for meta achievements and actively avoid all forms of instanced content? Hard to answer, but hopefully Arenanet has the answer and will adjust future zone meta achievements accordingly.

    The problem is I'm ususally the guy helping people in my guild and this time I'm not doing it because I don't have an interest in the zone because of the inclusions of strike missions. I won't get it and I'd imagine a dozen other people at least in my guild won't because of that. The thing is If I"m turned off others are too. You keep saying strike missions are casual content and I'm thinking how are you more qualified than me to make that assessemnt.

    Maybe we should poll all self-identified casuals and ask them, but I strongly suspect you'd be surprised.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2020

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Raid-like content as they get harder and I've tried the harder ones and they are.

    Did you try the easier ones? They aren't any harder than T1 fractals and most dungeons. Also, they are all you need to finish the meta.

    Because they wouldn't need to do this is raids weren't in the game at all.

    We'd have more fractals and/or dungeons if Raids weren't in the game at all. Something similar in challenge as Strike Missions.

    Okay first of all, let's talk about casual players. I'll wager most casual players never come to the forums at all. They never go to reddit. If they do they don't spend a long time here. Most casual players log into the game and play the game.. You keep asking me if I did this or I did that. No. I listen to people all day who tried a strike mission not realizing how different they were, had a bad experience and walked away without any intention of going back. You can't just throw a bunch of strike missions into a game with greatly varying difficulties if you're not going to include a breadcrumb trail.

    That's completely different issue with Strike Missions as there is no indicator of which one is easy and which one is hard. But there is an easy solution for that: Arenanet adds a little text next to each Strike Missions indicating which one is hard and which one is easy, similar to how the tiers of Fractals work. That way these people who tried Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag as their first ever Strike will see that they are "tough encounters" and instead opt to play the "easy encounters".

    And I'm asking because repeatedly you are talking as if Strikes are Raids and raid content, when more than half of them are on same level as Fractals and Dungeons. It's weird to think that someone that has run Ascalonian Catacombs story mode (the first dungeon in the game) or a Fractal like T1 Cliffside will have an issue with either of the easy Strike Missions. And those are more than enough to finish the meta.

    Most casual players log into the game and play the game..

    So you are saying that those casual players that never go outside the game finish the zone meta? That's impressive.

    Actually many people just play with their guild to get it done. That's what we do. Someone probably does look it up, then leads a bunch of other people around.

    How is it then that someone didn't read which Strike Missions are easier than others to direct the rest of the players there? And also read about the achievements in the harder ones that are actually freebies.

    Strike Missions need some way to tell players which ones are easy and which ones are hard, that will solve the problem of players walking into the harder ones then getting a bad experience. Meanwhile, for those going for the meta achievement, the one that reads the achievements can direct the rest of the players properly and lead them to the easy ones, telling them to avoid the harder ones.

    Once players realize (or are told) that they can finish the meta by completing missions that are similar to fractals/dungeons then this problem will be severely diminished. Leaving the only ones that will have an issue, those that have a problem with any kind of instanced content, including running T1 fractals and dungeons. The next question would be how many players go for meta achievements and actively avoid all forms of instanced content? Hard to answer, but hopefully Arenanet has the answer and will adjust future zone meta achievements accordingly.

    The problem is I'm ususally the guy helping people in my guild and this time I'm not doing it because I don't have an interest in the zone because of the inclusions of strike missions. I won't get it and I'd imagine a dozen other people at least in my guild won't because of that. The thing is If I"m turned off others are too. You keep saying strike missions are casual content and I'm thinking how are you more qualified than me to make that assessemnt.

    That depends if you qualify T1 Fractals and Dungeons as casual content. I'm saying Strike Missions are the same as those I don't recall saying directly that Strike Missions are casual content. I'm simply making a comparison between content that is nearly the same.

    Edit: and there are dungeon paths/Fractals that are considerably harder than the easier Strike Missions.

    Maybe we should poll all self-identified casuals and ask them, but I strongly suspect you'd be surprised.

    All self-identified casuals that finish map zone metas, there is a clear distinction here. I even wonder how many self-identified casuals go to complete map metas in the first place, but we won't know without some extra data, which we don't have.