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Including Strike Mission Achievements as a Required Part of the Zone Meta

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  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I don't really care what numbers you want to argue about or where you got them from or what your motives are.

    If you really want to know I was getting more data to support Vayne's argument about the GW2E map completion data. And at the same time show how important GW2E numbers are, especially for this particular discussion where the players affected are a sub-category of the total, which is way better represented on GW2E.

    But let's go back to the question about inconsistency, let me ask a question (and Vayne too since he started the topic)
    Do you think the complete lack of any mechanics in the Icebrood Saga story instances and the lack of any challenging achievements in the story instances is also "inconsistent"?

    Honestly, I didn't (and never have) thought about inconsisteny in terms of what mechanics are part of an encounter or not. What I'm talking about HERE is related to how Anet presents content to players and how they have deviated from what players expect when they are presented with content. I think it's fair to say AT THIS POINT that Anet has been so inconsistent in many areas of the game with how they deliver content to people that it's almost impossible to say what the baseline for consistent content delivery should be ... that's a dire situation to be in IMO. That shouldn't give Anet card blanche to do whatever ... it should be a sign to them to PICK a path and take it.

    I can recall a time when there were deviations that frustrated me AND were pleasing ... but in NEITHER instance did Anet continue in either of those directions. It was just like a one off ... an experiment ... at the expense of players struggling to understand what just happened to them. It's happening far too often IMO.

    For instance, I remember at time (can't recall exactly) where I was Caithe in the storyline .. .or I had Caithe's weapon skills. Either way, I was massively frustrated because I was expected to learn and be GOOD with her toolset, not my own. I was in MY character muscle memory and key patterns ... and then I'm Caithe ... what a mess that was. OK, maybe some people thought that was a 'cool' thing to happen. My point being is that 'adopting' characters is massively inconsistent in how people play, how they do content (because frankly, it almost NEVER happens) ... yet, Anet did it. Like, WHAT?!?!?! And I can't recall many other times since that it's ever happened again. So WTH ... when I do content, the LEAST I can expect in consistency is on my side with how I play, what gear I have, etc ... and then POOF, it's gone. That's probably my most memorable example related to this.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Adding another thought to why strike missions dont' work for me, is that they really do feel seperate from everything else. I've always perceived a difference between my character being motivated and me being motivated. Rewards motivate me. But my character needs motivations to do things. The example that comes to mind is actually from Guild Wars 1 and it annoyed me enough to remember it all these years later.

    In the Lahtenda Bog mission, we had to follow a corsair, pretending to be corsairs, in order to meet with a Kournan general. We were under cover. There was suddenly text on my screeen after I killed a Rhinkail monitor that I should kill all the Rhinkal monitors in Latendah Bog. There was no reason given for my character to do this. My character couldn't even see my screen. My character had no motivation to break cover and start running around looking for something when there was urgent business afoot. That's not like an achievement to avoid getting burned in a fight because of couse my character wouldn't get burned in a fight. Or not go down in fight. Why would my character want to go down in a fight.

    When I"m fighting Scruffy 2.0 in a story, even though it's hard, it's not just tacked on to what I'm doing. I'm trying to save Tiami and I have a motivation. I'm trying to avoid attacks and so I have a motivation. When something appears in the open world, my character is motivated, even if it's just a woman asked me to help out and gather her ruined grapes because the guards won't help her. The more motivation that's given to my character the more I don't mind doing something.

    Strike missions are just a boss Iv'e already fought, in another version without any explanation, in an instance he's never coming out of. I have reason to go in there...which is rewards. My character? Not part of the story. Nothing to give me a reason. It takes a living breathing world and turns it into a game. A game with different rules, since rezzing is different, revive orbs are diffrerent, nothing explained. Here's the world, learn the world...but in here the world is different. At least Fractals make some attempt to explain agony resistene.

    This is an interuption in the flow of everything I do. It's just there. It's very much the reason why I don't love SPVP and I don't necessarily mind WvW. WvW I can at least make a justification about fighting for my realm. PvP is just a bunch of quick mini stories that are complete unconnected that make no attempt to motivate my character.

    I know that probably sounds weird to a lot of you, but that's how I feel. Get together with this group of complete strangers and kill this boss for no other reason than the achievemnt panel say so. My character can't see the achievement panel.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2020

    The strikes do have an in game pointer about them. I am forgetting where the little background context comes from because I'm tired - but it's either mail or a map NPC who talks about threats invading the sanctum and Raven needing our help (iirc). The only one that I recall that still jars with the rest of the world/story is the Fraenir for obvious reasons. Oh and that Whisper thing.

    I would agree with that being an issue. I have no issue with them being "walled off", but I'd like them to be in context as well. The latter two are not, whilst the Icebrood colossus, Boneskinner and two Kodan do fit within the context the game provides

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think we got a mail for the whispers one but I’m not sure about the other three. It may be with an NPC.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ameepa.6793 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    My biggest concern is some, like me and my wife, will force themselves to do it because they want the emote and then, it'll look like peoiple are doing strike missions when in reality they don't like them. Enough of that stuff loses players.

    Indeed, I am kinda disappointed that you ended up "voting" it being a good thing to add strikes to meta since all they now see is that it was a success and they got new people doing them.

    I'm gonna hold on to my "no" vote and leave the meta unfinished!

    Often actions are better than just talk.

    Well I don't have it yet and I'm not pushing it. I'm still sitting at around 20 achievements. I'm not focused on it. It'll be months before I get it, by which time, Anet will have had their data and either acted on it or not.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2020

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Well I don't have it yet and I'm not pushing it. I'm still sitting at around 20 achievements. I'm not focused on it. It'll be months before I get it, by which time, Anet will have had their data and either acted on it or not.

    You also have to do the jumping puzzles 3 times for the meta. Lots of players hate jumping puzzles aswell. Should they be removed too?
    Read in another thread that a player stopped playing just because of this.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Well I don't have it yet and I'm not pushing it. I'm still sitting at around 20 achievements. I'm not focused on it. It'll be months before I get it, by which time, Anet will have had their data and either acted on it or not.

    You also have to do the jumping puzzles 3 times for the meta. Lots of players hate jumping puzzles aswell. Should they be removed too?
    Read in another thread that a player stopped playing just because of this.

    I never said remove anything. If you think I did, please find the quote and paste it. I said give people options. That's all. Give them options like they did with Wintersday. You want the meta you don't have to do the jumping puzzle. But you can if youl ike that sort of things. Giving players more options is not a bad idea. If there are 50 achievements in the zone, don't make 10 of them achievements you need from Strike missions. Then someone can choose I'll do a strike mission or a jumping puzzle and everyone is happy. Do I think it's great design to force someone to do something they don't like that's different from what they've been doing all along? Not really no.

  • Valandil Dragonhart.2371Valandil Dragonhart.2371 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2020

    I personally am not for the strike missions if they're going to keep them as difficult as they are. To me it looks like they were designed as a prelude to raids - difficulty and all. They're not going to hold onto casual players by keeping these as part of the map achieves either.

    Casual players just follow the story along, do meta content, get a few achieves and that's all.. until the next LS story. It's the same with most LS maps. Including 'elite' content (which if you have to use certain buffs and food to get an optimal outcome, and also have a certain type of team arrangement for success) isn't what casual players sign up for.

    I went out of my way and spent a small fortune on my disused guardian (now dragonhunter) and got him up to raid-spec with gear and utilities just so he could get involved with strike missions and make a difference. Sure it hits harder than most players in the instance, being naturally bursty, but it takes cooperation from ALL team members with their gear/stats/utilities, etc. Winning a strike mission should be about skill not luck. As such I might as well have stayed on my main for all the good it's done so far.

    Regarding the Whisper of Jormag (or whatever it is), towards the end of that strike mission is where it gets most fiddly. Below about 33% the visual noise is far too much, and you can't eliminate it by turning graphic quality down either. It's REALLY hard to know what's going on, especially for some newbie just doing their strike mission for the first time.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just thought I"d leave this here, since apparently I'm not the only person having issues. This post has 68 upvotes so far on reddit.

    https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/f89qmr/played_strike_missions_for_the_first_time_and/

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They were likely doing the whispers strike mission which is far more difficult than the other three. It’s was also their first time so unlikely that they would have gotten many of the achievements other than those handed out for being present.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    They were likely doing the whispers strike mission which is far more difficult than the other three. It’s was also their first time so unlikely that they would have gotten many of the achievements other than those handed out for being present.

    Doesn't really affect what I'm saying. Casual players don't want to do research online to figure out everything like this. They had this experience because this is the experience being offered and a casual will experience this way. There are enough upvotes to that post to make it a pretty common reaction.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    They were likely doing the whispers strike mission which is far more difficult than the other three. It’s was also their first time so unlikely that they would have gotten many of the achievements other than those handed out for being present.

    Doesn't really affect what I'm saying. Casual players don't want to do research online to figure out everything like this. They had this experience because this is the experience being offered and a casual will experience this way. There are enough upvotes to that post to make it a pretty common reaction.

    You don't need to do research online for strike missions. They're simple enough that you can learn what to do after a few tries.

    Also, upvotes on Reddit don't really mean anything.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    They were likely doing the whispers strike mission which is far more difficult than the other three. It’s was also their first time so unlikely that they would have gotten many of the achievements other than those handed out for being present.

    Doesn't really affect what I'm saying. Casual players don't want to do research online to figure out everything like this. They had this experience because this is the experience being offered and a casual will experience this way. There are enough upvotes to that post to make it a pretty common reaction.

    You don't need to do research online for strike missions. They're simple enough that you can learn what to do after a few tries.

    Also, upvotes on Reddit don't really mean anything.

    Don't kid yourself. Upvotes on reddit mean something. It means people are experiencing what I'm experiencing. I only had a modest number of likes on this post, but I find fewer people using hte like button on forums over all even if they agree with you and said so. Reddit is another story altogther.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2020

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    They were likely doing the whispers strike mission which is far more difficult than the other three. It’s was also their first time so unlikely that they would have gotten many of the achievements other than those handed out for being present.

    Doesn't really affect what I'm saying. Casual players don't want to do research online to figure out everything like this. They had this experience because this is the experience being offered and a casual will experience this way. There are enough upvotes to that post to make it a pretty common reaction.

    You don't need to do research online for strike missions. They're simple enough that you can learn what to do after a few tries.

    Also, upvotes on Reddit don't really mean anything.

    Don't kid yourself. Upvotes on reddit mean something. It means people are experiencing what I'm experiencing. I only had a modest number of likes on this post, but I find fewer people using hte like button on forums over all even if they agree with you and said so. Reddit is another story altogther.

    What it doesn't show are those that disagree with you. Reddit also has a very bipolar hive-mind mentality. What could get upvotes one day can just as well get downvotes the next. Even posts that state complete facts can receive downvotes into the negatives.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    They were likely doing the whispers strike mission which is far more difficult than the other three. It’s was also their first time so unlikely that they would have gotten many of the achievements other than those handed out for being present.

    Doesn't really affect what I'm saying. Casual players don't want to do research online to figure out everything like this. They had this experience because this is the experience being offered and a casual will experience this way. There are enough upvotes to that post to make it a pretty common reaction.

    You don't need to do research online for strike missions. They're simple enough that you can learn what to do after a few tries.

    Also, upvotes on Reddit don't really mean anything.

    Don't kid yourself. Upvotes on reddit mean something. It means people are experiencing what I'm experiencing. I only had a modest number of likes on this post, but I find fewer people using hte like button on forums over all even if they agree with you and said so. Reddit is another story altogther.

    What it doesn't show are those that disagree with you. Reddit also has a very bipolar hive-mind mentality. What could get upvotes one day can just as well get downvotes the next. Even posts that state complete facts can receive downvotes into the negatives.

    While I agree with some of what you say, it's easy to see the % of people who upvoted a post. This post is 83% upvoted. If you don't think that's an issue it's certainly okay. I think it means something. We'll have to agree to disagree.

    I should also mention this is pretty much against the harder core hive mind of reddit.

  • @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    They were likely doing the whispers strike mission which is far more difficult than the other three. It’s was also their first time so unlikely that they would have gotten many of the achievements other than those handed out for being present.

    Doesn't really affect what I'm saying. Casual players don't want to do research online to figure out everything like this. They had this experience because this is the experience being offered and a casual will experience this way. There are enough upvotes to that post to make it a pretty common reaction.

    You don't need to do research online for strike missions. They're simple enough that you can learn what to do after a few tries.

    Also, upvotes on Reddit don't really mean anything.

    Don't kid yourself. Upvotes on reddit mean something. It means people are experiencing what I'm experiencing. I only had a modest number of likes on this post, but I find fewer people using hte like button on forums over all even if they agree with you and said so. Reddit is another story altogther.

    What it doesn't show are those that disagree with you. Reddit also has a very bipolar hive-mind mentality. What could get upvotes one day can just as well get downvotes the next. Even posts that state complete facts can receive downvotes into the negatives.

    While I agree with some of what you say, it's easy to see the % of people who upvoted a post. This post is 83% upvoted. If you don't think that's an issue it's certainly okay. I think it means something. We'll have to agree to disagree.

    I should also mention this is pretty much against the harder core hive mind of reddit.

    The full thread title is "Played Strike Missions for the first time and people are dying all the time in random groups ... it's even worse than in Tier 1 Fractals. what is happening?". That's basically a "why people so bad lol" title, and the title is not expanded on by the OP until further down in the comments. It is highly unlikely that those upvotes are mostly from people who are "experiencing what you're experiencing".

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2020

    @Cameron.6450 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    They were likely doing the whispers strike mission which is far more difficult than the other three. It’s was also their first time so unlikely that they would have gotten many of the achievements other than those handed out for being present.

    Doesn't really affect what I'm saying. Casual players don't want to do research online to figure out everything like this. They had this experience because this is the experience being offered and a casual will experience this way. There are enough upvotes to that post to make it a pretty common reaction.

    You don't need to do research online for strike missions. They're simple enough that you can learn what to do after a few tries.

    Also, upvotes on Reddit don't really mean anything.

    Don't kid yourself. Upvotes on reddit mean something. It means people are experiencing what I'm experiencing. I only had a modest number of likes on this post, but I find fewer people using hte like button on forums over all even if they agree with you and said so. Reddit is another story altogther.

    What it doesn't show are those that disagree with you. Reddit also has a very bipolar hive-mind mentality. What could get upvotes one day can just as well get downvotes the next. Even posts that state complete facts can receive downvotes into the negatives.

    While I agree with some of what you say, it's easy to see the % of people who upvoted a post. This post is 83% upvoted. If you don't think that's an issue it's certainly okay. I think it means something. We'll have to agree to disagree.

    I should also mention this is pretty much against the harder core hive mind of reddit.

    The full thread title is "Played Strike Missions for the first time and people are dying all the time in random groups ... it's even worse than in Tier 1 Fractals. what is happening?". That's basically a "why people so bad lol" title, and the title is not expanded on by the OP until further down in the comments. It is highly unlikely that those upvotes are mostly from people who are "experiencing what you're experiencing".

    I'm reading comments. I'm definitely not alone here.

    Edit: In fact if he's saying everyone is bad, it intensifies everything I'm saying about strike missions. Why would I want to play with people like that?

  • @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Cameron.6450 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    They were likely doing the whispers strike mission which is far more difficult than the other three. It’s was also their first time so unlikely that they would have gotten many of the achievements other than those handed out for being present.

    Doesn't really affect what I'm saying. Casual players don't want to do research online to figure out everything like this. They had this experience because this is the experience being offered and a casual will experience this way. There are enough upvotes to that post to make it a pretty common reaction.

    You don't need to do research online for strike missions. They're simple enough that you can learn what to do after a few tries.

    Also, upvotes on Reddit don't really mean anything.

    Don't kid yourself. Upvotes on reddit mean something. It means people are experiencing what I'm experiencing. I only had a modest number of likes on this post, but I find fewer people using hte like button on forums over all even if they agree with you and said so. Reddit is another story altogther.

    What it doesn't show are those that disagree with you. Reddit also has a very bipolar hive-mind mentality. What could get upvotes one day can just as well get downvotes the next. Even posts that state complete facts can receive downvotes into the negatives.

    While I agree with some of what you say, it's easy to see the % of people who upvoted a post. This post is 83% upvoted. If you don't think that's an issue it's certainly okay. I think it means something. We'll have to agree to disagree.

    I should also mention this is pretty much against the harder core hive mind of reddit.

    The full thread title is "Played Strike Missions for the first time and people are dying all the time in random groups ... it's even worse than in Tier 1 Fractals. what is happening?". That's basically a "why people so bad lol" title, and the title is not expanded on by the OP until further down in the comments. It is highly unlikely that those upvotes are mostly from people who are "experiencing what you're experiencing".

    I'm reading comments. I'm definitely not alone here.

    Edit: In fact if he's saying everyone is bad, it intensifies everything I'm saying about strike missions. Why would I want to play with people like that?

    I didn't see any comments that mention strike missions being part of the meta achievement. There's a bunch of complaints about it being too difficult, but I'm pretty sure I remember you (and others) saying that it wasn't that strikes were too hard, but rather that they were instanced content in the first place.

    And I don't think the OP was intending to make a "why people so bad lol" thread, but it's very easy to interpret their title in that way. I got the impression from the op's comments further down that it was genuine confusion as to why so many people were dying, but it's not clear. It could be possible that they are a regular raider who stepped into it and was making a comment on how people suck, but I doubt it. But even if he were being disparaging, if getting the strike done was such a big deal for so many people in your guild, I'm not really sure why you'd be doing it with random pugs instead of your guild members, since presumably none of them would act in that way.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cameron.6450 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Cameron.6450 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    They were likely doing the whispers strike mission which is far more difficult than the other three. It’s was also their first time so unlikely that they would have gotten many of the achievements other than those handed out for being present.

    Doesn't really affect what I'm saying. Casual players don't want to do research online to figure out everything like this. They had this experience because this is the experience being offered and a casual will experience this way. There are enough upvotes to that post to make it a pretty common reaction.

    You don't need to do research online for strike missions. They're simple enough that you can learn what to do after a few tries.

    Also, upvotes on Reddit don't really mean anything.

    Don't kid yourself. Upvotes on reddit mean something. It means people are experiencing what I'm experiencing. I only had a modest number of likes on this post, but I find fewer people using hte like button on forums over all even if they agree with you and said so. Reddit is another story altogther.

    What it doesn't show are those that disagree with you. Reddit also has a very bipolar hive-mind mentality. What could get upvotes one day can just as well get downvotes the next. Even posts that state complete facts can receive downvotes into the negatives.

    While I agree with some of what you say, it's easy to see the % of people who upvoted a post. This post is 83% upvoted. If you don't think that's an issue it's certainly okay. I think it means something. We'll have to agree to disagree.

    I should also mention this is pretty much against the harder core hive mind of reddit.

    The full thread title is "Played Strike Missions for the first time and people are dying all the time in random groups ... it's even worse than in Tier 1 Fractals. what is happening?". That's basically a "why people so bad lol" title, and the title is not expanded on by the OP until further down in the comments. It is highly unlikely that those upvotes are mostly from people who are "experiencing what you're experiencing".

    I'm reading comments. I'm definitely not alone here.

    Edit: In fact if he's saying everyone is bad, it intensifies everything I'm saying about strike missions. Why would I want to play with people like that?

    I didn't see any comments that mention strike missions being part of the meta achievement. There's a bunch of complaints about it being too difficult, but I'm pretty sure I remember you (and others) saying that it wasn't that strikes were too hard, but rather that they were instanced content in the first place.

    And I don't think the OP was intending to make a "why people so bad lol" thread, but it's very easy to interpret their title in that way. I got the impression from the op's comments further down that it was genuine confusion as to why so many people were dying, but it's not clear. It could be possible that they are a regular raider who stepped into it and was making a comment on how people suck, but I doubt it. But even if he were being disparaging, if getting the strike done was such a big deal for so many people in your guild, I'm not really sure why you'd be doing it with random pugs instead of your guild members, since presumably none of them would act in that way.

    Well, I think you're taking a pretty narrow view here. Strike mission, people dying and he doesn't know why. But people are dying. I'm pretty sure a lot of people don't really get what they have to do, and are walking away from the whole meta, and possibly the zone. My interest in the zone, because of this is greatly decreased over previous zones. I'm just not interested. I fought against raids being added to the game but they got added anyway. As long as they stayed in their lane, that was fine but now they're moving into a more public area of the game. It's absolutely not the game I want to play and again I'm not alone. in fact, I'd guess there are far more people who don't want this than want it. Just a guess but I think it's a good one.

    You want to add challenging, instanced content to the game, go ahead. Want to put it as part of a meta...you're going to get backlash. How many people will come to forums or reddit to complain is probabliy small compared to the number of people who'll just stop playing or at least not do that content.

    Usually I'm a defender of the game. This is one change I can't defend, and again, at least in my guild it seems there's less interest in the zone, at least partially because of this.

  • Jayden Reese.9542Jayden Reese.9542 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2020

    aryi you got sucked in to the thread that was dead so he linked reddit kitten to find a couple players to argue the same point with.

  • Jayden Reese.9542Jayden Reese.9542 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2020

    That thread you linked has nothing to do with this thread. There is no mention of meta/achieves. It's a very inexperienced player who joined a strike and players died. He doesn't know how to use lfg and said T1 fractals are similar. So this dude dies in T1 fractals. We don't know what strike and he used public so yeah a player joining WoJ strike that can't do T1 fractals is a huge part of the reason everyone died as he was a burden to the highest degree. So Vayne you said these are similar issues for you and if you are in NA feel free to hmu for help as I can solo many T1 fractals and also can find others to help thru the LFG tool.

  • Requiring this is already driving some of the casuals away. Whatever your definition of casual is, this is mine; A casual player is one who plays mainly in the PVE world getting levels, achievements and exploring without having to have 'That build with your rotations down to achieve this much DPS' A;ready there are strike LFG's that are saying they are running dps monitor and to you have this or that. I am a casual player who also is an achievement hunter. Yes, I play a lot, but no I am not good at rotations,
    Builds, and Raid mechanics. YET before this I have always been able to achieve the meta map achievement. Yes other maps have had jump puzzles and other things that were bothersome, but you usually could do other map achievements to get it and is not you could get a group of regular 'casual' players to help you get through, but with the newer Strikes they have made it so that just getting a group together that can complete it is hard.

    My husband quit for 4 years after HoT came out. I got him wto come back lately to play yet he has only completed story in the new area and ran around for a few min. I tried to get him to do a strike and he said he would rather go play another game than ever try that kitten where he would feel inferior if we had to carrying him. Why pplay a game if they force you to feel inferior he asked me. He and I are older and just not so coordinated.

    They have already basically banned us from Legendary Armor since if I ever want to get it I would have to do paid Raids since there is no way I doing an LFG for it. I have joined a wonderful WvW group that does not care about builds and stuff but it will be a long hall to 2000 to get that Legendary Armor and most casual players will not take the route I am.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Create a casual run for the strike missions then and specify it as being casual.

    People are well within their right to request people that join the groups that they created to meet certain DPS thresholds.

    Strikes are very much casual content, or at the very least, the three that rotate weekly. Whispers is debatable but doable by randoms with no raid experience. It just depends on their ability to pay attention.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2020

    The easiest solution for this (maybe not the most liked for this Meta-Achiev) will be to just play SMs if you want, and if you don't, just don't play them.
    Anet will be able to get data from that and will then have to decide if it was a good decision to include certain achievements to the Meta-achiev.
    They'll then be able to create future achievements based on that stats-feedback. I don't believe they will retroactively change anything for this release.

    In the end we can just hope Anet does what is the correct choice for Guild Wars 2, so that it keeps on going. May that be a future with SMs in the Meta-achievements, or without.

    I will just continue playing how I have until now, and adjust my playtime based on Anets future decisions.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you. Umbasa.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Again, stop speaking for "casuals". I am casual minded, so are many of the players I play with and we all utterly disagree with you and have no issues with playing Strikes, nor would any of them even consider quitting the game because of it.

    I"m speaking for what I believe to be the bulk of the casual population but regardless of this, you see a thread I've linked that claims lots of people are dying. There are two types of players. Those who don't mind dying and those who see dying as failure. Those who see dying as failure may have played different games than you or learned how games work a different way.

    People who play a lot of FPS games are probably inured to dying. I grew up on adventure games and games like Tombraider before there were game saves, where you had to get to the next check point. Where dying was a really bad thing.

    ANd people are dying adn getting frustrated even if you're not. Do you know the percentage of people who get frustrated by dying like that in content...I don't. But I'm guessing it's larger than you think.

    On top of that, there's the intermetent lag spikes which tons of people are getting. Most of the time I can survive those in the open world, but not all the time. In harder instanced content it's almost an automatic death and in Strike Mission that means I can't be rezzed or use a revive orb. I'm speaking as I said for my guild of 350 people many of whom feel this way and many who wish Strike Missions didn't exist at all.

    If you're going to put them in the game, keep them seperate so people can choose to experience them if they want. That' s all I'm saying. You make it part of the zone achievement and some people, like me, will lose interest in the zone. You keep including them and some people will lose interest in the game.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Create a casual run for the strike missions then and specify it as being casual.

    People are well within their right to request people that join the groups that they created to meet certain DPS thresholds.

    Strikes are very much casual content, or at the very least, the three that rotate weekly. Whispers is debatable but doable by randoms with no raid experience. It just depends on their ability to pay attention.

    Strikes aren't casual content. Strikes are easier instanced content, but they're not casual because very often casuals don't organize. And the organization is the problem here. It's something many don't play a game to do. I will organize stuff myself, but I know my guild saw what raids did to them (as in caused a schism between better players and not so better players) and said screw this here we go again.

    You can say this is casual content, but it's really not. At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2020

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Whether you believe you speak for us is not relevant. You do not speak for any majority or bulk segment so I'd appreciate you not alluding to the idea that you do.

    Actually you simply can't know that. You can suspect it. I might be speaking for a majoirty of the playerbase, or I might be speaking for a larger segment of the playerbase demographic, even if it's not a flat out majority. I'm absolutely convinced that more people would rather not deal with strike missions than like them though. Anet will figure that out fast enough I'm sure.

    It doesn't really matter what I say or what you say. Anet has those metrics or they're getting them. If I'm wrong they won't change anything. If I'm right they probably will.

    Edit: Anyway you keep bringing this up, where in recent posts have I alluded to this at all. I stopped saying it a long time ago. You're still on this idea that I keep saying it. I've stopped.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2020

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Whether you believe you speak for us is not relevant.

    Yet you continue to insist he should stop doing so ... If you think it's not relevant, then you shouldn't have an issue with it.

    The fact is that he speaks for SOMEONE and what he calls them shouldn't be a problem with you if what he's saying doesn't apply to what you think in the first place. I mean, your big hang up is a label ... seems to me that's a very pedantic thing to take issue with. If that's the best you bring, you don't bring much.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2020

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Edit: Anyway you keep bringing this up, where in recent posts have I alluded to this at all. I stopped saying it a long time ago. You're still on this idea that I keep saying it. I've stopped.

    You brought it up just a couple of posts ago......

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    I"m speaking for what I believe to be the bulk of the casual population

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Edit: Anyway you keep bringing this up, where in recent posts have I alluded to this at all. I stopped saying it a long time ago. You're still on this idea that I keep saying it. I've stopped.

    You brought it up just a couple of posts ago......

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    I"m speaking for what I believe to be the bulk of the casual population

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Edit: Anyway you keep bringing this up, where in recent posts have I alluded to this at all. I stopped saying it a long time ago. You're still on this idea that I keep saying it. I've stopped.

    You brought it up just a couple of posts ago......

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    I"m speaking for what I believe to be the bulk of the casual population

    Wait a sec? I can't say what I believe now? I didn't state it as a fact. I stated it as a belief. I believe this to be true. That doesn't mean it's automatically true. Saying people shouldn't state a belief on a forum as a belief is simply not on (as we say downunder).

    I absolutely believe most people could care less about strike missions in the way I think most people could care less about raids.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Create a casual run for the strike missions then and specify it as being casual.

    People are well within their right to request people that join the groups that they created to meet certain DPS thresholds.

    Strikes are very much casual content, or at the very least, the three that rotate weekly. Whispers is debatable but doable by randoms with no raid experience. It just depends on their ability to pay attention.

    Strikes aren't casual content. Strikes are easier instanced content, but they're not casual because very often casuals don't organize. And the organization is the problem here. It's something many don't play a game to do. I will organize stuff myself, but I know my guild saw what raids did to them (as in caused a schism between better players and not so better players) and said screw this here we go again.

    You can say this is casual content, but it's really not. At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

    They're casual content. You don't need to organize for them unless going for all of the bonus chests. You wait in LFG just like you would for dungeons and fractals. The only difference is that it takes a little longer since you need 10 players instead of 5.

  • Jayden Reese.9542Jayden Reese.9542 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2020

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Create a casual run for the strike missions then and specify it as being casual.

    People are well within their right to request people that join the groups that they created to meet certain DPS thresholds.

    Strikes are very much casual content, or at the very least, the three that rotate weekly. Whispers is debatable but doable by randoms with no raid experience. It just depends on their ability to pay attention.

    Strikes aren't casual content. Strikes are easier instanced content, but they're not casual because very often casuals don't organize. And the organization is the problem here. It's something many don't play a game to do. I will organize stuff myself, but I know my guild saw what raids did to them (as in caused a schism between better players and not so better players) and said screw this here we go again.

    You can say this is casual content, but it's really not. At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

    They're casual content. You don't need to organize for them unless going for all of the bonus chests. You wait in LFG just like you would for dungeons and fractals. The only difference is that it takes a little longer since you need 10 players instead of 5.

    He's a casual and speaks on behalf of all casuals. If any one knows what casual content it's him. Just because I can join/beat T3 fractals and dungeons and strikes via lfg with 4-9 others I never met nor speak too during means it is Hardcore content.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Create a casual run for the strike missions then and specify it as being casual.

    People are well within their right to request people that join the groups that they created to meet certain DPS thresholds.

    Strikes are very much casual content, or at the very least, the three that rotate weekly. Whispers is debatable but doable by randoms with no raid experience. It just depends on their ability to pay attention.

    Strikes aren't casual content. Strikes are easier instanced content, but they're not casual because very often casuals don't organize. And the organization is the problem here. It's something many don't play a game to do. I will organize stuff myself, but I know my guild saw what raids did to them (as in caused a schism between better players and not so better players) and said screw this here we go again.

    You can say this is casual content, but it's really not. At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

    They're casual content. You don't need to organize for them unless going for all of the bonus chests. You wait in LFG just like you would for dungeons and fractals. The only difference is that it takes a little longer since you need 10 players instead of 5.

    He's a casual and speaks on behalf of all casuals. If any one knows what casual content it's him. Just because I can join/beat T3 fractals and dungeons and strikes via lfg with 4-9 others I never met nor speak too during means it is Hardcore content.

    I'm not going on a limb when I say that I seriously doubt most of the playerbase has ever touched a tier 3 fractal. I have. Most of my guild has never entered a fractal.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @WendyB.1650 said:
    Requiring this is already driving some of the casuals away. Whatever your definition of casual is, this is mine; A casual player is one who plays mainly in the PVE world getting levels, achievements and exploring without having to have 'That build with your rotations down to achieve this much DPS' A;ready there are strike LFG's that are saying they are running dps monitor and to you have this or that. I am a casual player who also is an achievement hunter. Yes, I play a lot, but no I am not good at rotations,
    Builds, and Raid mechanics. YET before this I have always been able to achieve the meta map achievement. Yes other maps have had jump puzzles and other things that were bothersome, but you usually could do other map achievements to get it and is not you could get a group of regular 'casual' players to help you get through, but with the newer Strikes they have made it so that just getting a group together that can complete it is hard.

    My husband quit for 4 years after HoT came out. I got him wto come back lately to play yet he has only completed story in the new area and ran around for a few min. I tried to get him to do a strike and he said he would rather go play another game than ever try that kitten where he would feel inferior if we had to carrying him. Why pplay a game if they force you to feel inferior he asked me. He and I are older and just not so coordinated.

    They have already basically banned us from Legendary Armor since if I ever want to get it I would have to do paid Raids since there is no way I doing an LFG for it. I have joined a wonderful WvW group that does not care about builds and stuff but it will be a long hall to 2000 to get that Legendary Armor and most casual players will not take the route I am.

    This is the game failing to raise you as a player sadly. The mechanical skill required to do raids is not that high as there are rotations out there where you only hit 2 buttons to do sufficient raid dps. The jump from open world to raids is like the jump from first grade to fifth grade. No ones going to say fifth grade is hard but the game does nothing to fill in second, third, and fourth grade for you so it feels like it's hard. The game also has a bunch of noob traps when it comes to trait and gear choices and does nothing to call out that you might be going down the wrong path.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @WendyB.1650 said:
    Requiring this is already driving some of the casuals away. Whatever your definition of casual is, this is mine; A casual player is one who plays mainly in the PVE world getting levels, achievements and exploring without having to have 'That build with your rotations down to achieve this much DPS' A;ready there are strike LFG's that are saying they are running dps monitor and to you have this or that. I am a casual player who also is an achievement hunter. Yes, I play a lot, but no I am not good at rotations,
    Builds, and Raid mechanics. YET before this I have always been able to achieve the meta map achievement. Yes other maps have had jump puzzles and other things that were bothersome, but you usually could do other map achievements to get it and is not you could get a group of regular 'casual' players to help you get through, but with the newer Strikes they have made it so that just getting a group together that can complete it is hard.

    My husband quit for 4 years after HoT came out. I got him wto come back lately to play yet he has only completed story in the new area and ran around for a few min. I tried to get him to do a strike and he said he would rather go play another game than ever try that kitten where he would feel inferior if we had to carrying him. Why pplay a game if they force you to feel inferior he asked me. He and I are older and just not so coordinated.

    They have already basically banned us from Legendary Armor since if I ever want to get it I would have to do paid Raids since there is no way I doing an LFG for it. I have joined a wonderful WvW group that does not care about builds and stuff but it will be a long hall to 2000 to get that Legendary Armor and most casual players will not take the route I am.

    This is the game failing to raise you as a player sadly. The mechanical skill required to do raids is not that high as there are rotations out there where you only hit 2 buttons to do sufficient raid dps. The jump from open world to raids is like the jump from first grade to fifth grade. No ones going to say fifth grade is hard but the game does nothing to fill in second, third, and fourth grade for you so it feels like it's hard. The game also has a bunch of noob traps when it comes to trait and gear choices and does nothing to call out that you might be going down the wrong path.

    See I don't understand this at all. The game isn't failing to raise me as a player because I'm not interested in being raised as a player. You seem to think everyone who plays a sport wants to compete at that sport. SOme people play professional ball, some people play amateur ball and some people just want to have a catch and there's nothing wrong with that. The ball wasn't designed for only competitive sports. It was designed to enjoy yourself and everyone enjoys themselves differently. Most people don't walk up to two people playing catch and say you're doing it wrong. It would be a weird thing to say.

    You're making it sound like somehow we should all strive to be great at a game that many of us play just to relax. Have some laughs with friends. You're making it sound like I couldn't do raids if I wanted to but I can do them. I have no interest in them. I don't want to do them. I don't need to get better at the game. I need the game to stop telling me to play baseball when I want to have a catch.

    The more rewards they lock behind content i have no interest in the less this game is my game. The more they make stuff like strike missions part of something like zone metas the less this game and that zone interests me, because that's not my interest. I've run T4 fractals. I've run all the dungeons many many times. I'm not interested in Strike Missions. I'm not interested in raids. The game hasn't failed to raise me as a player. Hell raids didn't even exist in this game for the first 3.5 years and for the first 3.5 years I did everything in the game. But they added something I'm not interested in, and now they're adding something I'm not interested in to try to interest me in something I'm already not interested in.

    I can look up a build on snowcrows and meta battle. I can practice a rotation on the practice dummy. I can watch a raid video. I have no interest in doing any of it. Not even a little. Even if it makes me a "better" player. I'd rather have a catch.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @WendyB.1650 said:
    Requiring this is already driving some of the casuals away. Whatever your definition of casual is, this is mine; A casual player is one who plays mainly in the PVE world getting levels, achievements and exploring without having to have 'That build with your rotations down to achieve this much DPS' A;ready there are strike LFG's that are saying they are running dps monitor and to you have this or that. I am a casual player who also is an achievement hunter. Yes, I play a lot, but no I am not good at rotations,
    Builds, and Raid mechanics. YET before this I have always been able to achieve the meta map achievement. Yes other maps have had jump puzzles and other things that were bothersome, but you usually could do other map achievements to get it and is not you could get a group of regular 'casual' players to help you get through, but with the newer Strikes they have made it so that just getting a group together that can complete it is hard.

    My husband quit for 4 years after HoT came out. I got him wto come back lately to play yet he has only completed story in the new area and ran around for a few min. I tried to get him to do a strike and he said he would rather go play another game than ever try that kitten where he would feel inferior if we had to carrying him. Why pplay a game if they force you to feel inferior he asked me. He and I are older and just not so coordinated.

    They have already basically banned us from Legendary Armor since if I ever want to get it I would have to do paid Raids since there is no way I doing an LFG for it. I have joined a wonderful WvW group that does not care about builds and stuff but it will be a long hall to 2000 to get that Legendary Armor and most casual players will not take the route I am.

    This is the game failing to raise you as a player sadly. The mechanical skill required to do raids is not that high as there are rotations out there where you only hit 2 buttons to do sufficient raid dps. The jump from open world to raids is like the jump from first grade to fifth grade. No ones going to say fifth grade is hard but the game does nothing to fill in second, third, and fourth grade for you so it feels like it's hard. The game also has a bunch of noob traps when it comes to trait and gear choices and does nothing to call out that you might be going down the wrong path.

    See I don't understand this at all. The game isn't failing to raise me as a player because I'm not interested in being raised as a player. You seem to think everyone who plays a sport wants to compete at that sport. SOme people play professional ball, some people play amateur ball and some people just want to have a catch and there's nothing wrong with that. The ball wasn't designed for only competitive sports. It was designed to enjoy yourself and everyone enjoys themselves differently. Most people don't walk up to two people playing catch and say you're doing it wrong. It would be a weird thing to say.

    You're making it sound like somehow we should all strive to be great at a game that many of us play just to relax. Have some laughs with friends. You're making it sound like I couldn't do raids if I wanted to but I can do them. I have no interest in them. I don't want to do them. I don't need to get better at the game. I need the game to stop telling me to play baseball when I want to have a catch.

    The more rewards they lock behind content i have no interest in the less this game is my game. The more they make stuff like strike missions part of something like zone metas the less this game and that zone interests me, because that's not my interest. I've run T4 fractals. I've run all the dungeons many many times. I'm not interested in Strike Missions. I'm not interested in raids. The game hasn't failed to raise me as a player. Hell raids didn't even exist in this game for the first 3.5 years and for the first 3.5 years I did everything in the game. But they added something I'm not interested in, and now they're adding something I'm not interested in to try to interest me in something I'm already not interested in.

    I can look up a build on snowcrows and meta battle. I can practice a rotation on the practice dummy. I can watch a raid video. I have no interest in doing any of it. Not even a little. Even if it makes me a "better" player. I'd rather have a catch.

    You're missing the point of making better players.

    Are you at this point a better player then when you started? I dare to wager most people are. If you design your game well people will improve without themselves noticing.

    As a developer you want this because it makes it easier to develop content wich feels meaningful to as many people as possible.

    Even if raids where never introduced it would still be a good game design to make players improve.

    On a side note, how would you feel about strikes if raids where never introduced?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2020

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Create a casual run for the strike missions then and specify it as being casual.

    People are well within their right to request people that join the groups that they created to meet certain DPS thresholds.

    Strikes are very much casual content, or at the very least, the three that rotate weekly. Whispers is debatable but doable by randoms with no raid experience. It just depends on their ability to pay attention.

    Strikes aren't casual content. Strikes are easier instanced content, but they're not casual because very often casuals don't organize. And the organization is the problem here. It's something many don't play a game to do. I will organize stuff myself, but I know my guild saw what raids did to them (as in caused a schism between better players and not so better players) and said screw this here we go again.

    You can say this is casual content, but it's really not. At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

    They're casual content. You don't need to organize for them unless going for all of the bonus chests. You wait in LFG just like you would for dungeons and fractals. The only difference is that it takes a little longer since you need 10 players instead of 5.

    You don't even -have- to wait in the LFG... touch the portal is all you need to do to play and complete the easier Strikes, and is more than enough to finish the zone meta. You can also go... solo and finish some of the meta achievements on your own. Or get a friend or two, in a big guild you might have some.

    You don't need to organize. You don't need 10 people. You don't need to wait. Strikes are not dungeons or fractals

    At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

    Good thing they aren't needed for the zone meta then. Is your problem that there are easy and hard Strikes? Is that what this is all about? That some Strikes are actually good content and not solo content?

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @WendyB.1650 said:
    Requiring this is already driving some of the casuals away. Whatever your definition of casual is, this is mine; A casual player is one who plays mainly in the PVE world getting levels, achievements and exploring without having to have 'That build with your rotations down to achieve this much DPS' A;ready there are strike LFG's that are saying they are running dps monitor and to you have this or that. I am a casual player who also is an achievement hunter. Yes, I play a lot, but no I am not good at rotations,
    Builds, and Raid mechanics. YET before this I have always been able to achieve the meta map achievement. Yes other maps have had jump puzzles and other things that were bothersome, but you usually could do other map achievements to get it and is not you could get a group of regular 'casual' players to help you get through, but with the newer Strikes they have made it so that just getting a group together that can complete it is hard.

    My husband quit for 4 years after HoT came out. I got him wto come back lately to play yet he has only completed story in the new area and ran around for a few min. I tried to get him to do a strike and he said he would rather go play another game than ever try that kitten where he would feel inferior if we had to carrying him. Why pplay a game if they force you to feel inferior he asked me. He and I are older and just not so coordinated.

    They have already basically banned us from Legendary Armor since if I ever want to get it I would have to do paid Raids since there is no way I doing an LFG for it. I have joined a wonderful WvW group that does not care about builds and stuff but it will be a long hall to 2000 to get that Legendary Armor and most casual players will not take the route I am.

    This is the game failing to raise you as a player sadly. The mechanical skill required to do raids is not that high as there are rotations out there where you only hit 2 buttons to do sufficient raid dps. The jump from open world to raids is like the jump from first grade to fifth grade. No ones going to say fifth grade is hard but the game does nothing to fill in second, third, and fourth grade for you so it feels like it's hard. The game also has a bunch of noob traps when it comes to trait and gear choices and does nothing to call out that you might be going down the wrong path.

    See I don't understand this at all. The game isn't failing to raise me as a player because I'm not interested in being raised as a player. You seem to think everyone who plays a sport wants to compete at that sport. SOme people play professional ball, some people play amateur ball and some people just want to have a catch and there's nothing wrong with that. The ball wasn't designed for only competitive sports. It was designed to enjoy yourself and everyone enjoys themselves differently. Most people don't walk up to two people playing catch and say you're doing it wrong. It would be a weird thing to say.

    You're making it sound like somehow we should all strive to be great at a game that many of us play just to relax. Have some laughs with friends. You're making it sound like I couldn't do raids if I wanted to but I can do them. I have no interest in them. I don't want to do them. I don't need to get better at the game. I need the game to stop telling me to play baseball when I want to have a catch.

    The more rewards they lock behind content i have no interest in the less this game is my game. The more they make stuff like strike missions part of something like zone metas the less this game and that zone interests me, because that's not my interest. I've run T4 fractals. I've run all the dungeons many many times. I'm not interested in Strike Missions. I'm not interested in raids. The game hasn't failed to raise me as a player. Hell raids didn't even exist in this game for the first 3.5 years and for the first 3.5 years I did everything in the game. But they added something I'm not interested in, and now they're adding something I'm not interested in to try to interest me in something I'm already not interested in.

    I can look up a build on snowcrows and meta battle. I can practice a rotation on the practice dummy. I can watch a raid video. I have no interest in doing any of it. Not even a little. Even if it makes me a "better" player. I'd rather have a catch.

    You're missing the point of making better players.

    Are you at this point a better player then when you started? I dare to wager most people are. If you design your game well people will improve without themselves noticing.

    As a developer you want this because it makes it easier to develop content wich feels meaningful to as many people as possible.

    Even if raids where never introduced it would still be a good game design to make players improve.

    On a side note, how would you feel about strikes if raids where never introduced?

    I'm not interested in ten man instanced content period. I've never been interested in high man instanced content, even in Guild Wars 1, when they came out with Urgoz Warren and the Deep both of which I beat. I just prefer smaller group content and always have.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Create a casual run for the strike missions then and specify it as being casual.

    People are well within their right to request people that join the groups that they created to meet certain DPS thresholds.

    Strikes are very much casual content, or at the very least, the three that rotate weekly. Whispers is debatable but doable by randoms with no raid experience. It just depends on their ability to pay attention.

    Strikes aren't casual content. Strikes are easier instanced content, but they're not casual because very often casuals don't organize. And the organization is the problem here. It's something many don't play a game to do. I will organize stuff myself, but I know my guild saw what raids did to them (as in caused a schism between better players and not so better players) and said screw this here we go again.

    You can say this is casual content, but it's really not. At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

    They're casual content. You don't need to organize for them unless going for all of the bonus chests. You wait in LFG just like you would for dungeons and fractals. The only difference is that it takes a little longer since you need 10 players instead of 5.

    You don't even -have- to wait in the LFG... touch the portal is all you need to do to play and complete the easier Strikes, and is more than enough to finish the zone meta. You can also go... solo and finish some of the meta achievements on your own. Or get a friend or two, in a big guild you might have some.

    You don't need to organize. You don't need 10 people. You don't need to wait. Strikes are not dungeons or fractals

    At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

    Good thing they aren't needed for the zone meta then. Is your problem that there are easy and hard Strikes? Is that what this is all about? That some Strikes are actually good content and not solo content?

    The point is there's a trend and I don't like the trend. You want strike missions, fine. Keep them out of zone metas. PvP and raids are separate, why should this be the exception?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Create a casual run for the strike missions then and specify it as being casual.

    People are well within their right to request people that join the groups that they created to meet certain DPS thresholds.

    Strikes are very much casual content, or at the very least, the three that rotate weekly. Whispers is debatable but doable by randoms with no raid experience. It just depends on their ability to pay attention.

    Strikes aren't casual content. Strikes are easier instanced content, but they're not casual because very often casuals don't organize. And the organization is the problem here. It's something many don't play a game to do. I will organize stuff myself, but I know my guild saw what raids did to them (as in caused a schism between better players and not so better players) and said screw this here we go again.

    You can say this is casual content, but it's really not. At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

    They're casual content. You don't need to organize for them unless going for all of the bonus chests. You wait in LFG just like you would for dungeons and fractals. The only difference is that it takes a little longer since you need 10 players instead of 5.

    You don't even -have- to wait in the LFG... touch the portal is all you need to do to play and complete the easier Strikes, and is more than enough to finish the zone meta. You can also go... solo and finish some of the meta achievements on your own. Or get a friend or two, in a big guild you might have some.

    You don't need to organize. You don't need 10 people. You don't need to wait. Strikes are not dungeons or fractals

    At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

    Good thing they aren't needed for the zone meta then. Is your problem that there are easy and hard Strikes? Is that what this is all about? That some Strikes are actually good content and not solo content?

    The point is there's a trend and I don't like the trend. You want strike missions, fine. Keep them out of zone metas. PvP and raids are separate, why should this be the exception?

    Not contesting the trend, we've already been over that, I expect the next batch of Strike Missions to have both easy and hard ones, just like this one. You fear that the next batch will -start- at the level of the last one from this one. I think Arenanet doesn't want to kill strike missions already. We'll see how that turns out.

    I'm contesting the idea that Strike Missions are not casual content and the idea that they need any kind of organization to succeed. The easier strike missions are casual content and require zero preparation or organization. Touch the zone exit, kill the boss, get out. No planning, no LFG, no team building, no builds, no rotations, no roles, nothing. And you can finish these easier ones to complete the meta, or get a few of the participation achievements of the harder ones. So there is no non-casual content required to finish the meta. That some of the later strike missions are harder is true, they do require preparation and organization, but they aren't needed for the meta.

    If it stays like this, with both easy and hard missions, casual and hardcore strike missions, would it be OK to have future Strike Missions in the meta? If indeed the problem is with the trend

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2020

    So I just did the light the torches achievement and everyone is right. You can do it solo. You'll die and restart a bunch of times, but you can do it. And it's absolutely 100% pointless. It's like rez rushing in the old dungeons. Sure you can do it. But what did I do? I cheezed it. Made me feel great, I can tell you. I don't want to do the content and even if I can cheeze a couple of the achievements like this it still sucked and I still don't want to do this and I don't want to see this as a pattern going forward. Yep,, I found it really annoying. I don't love the fishing event either and had to do it 20 times but at least I was doing content, not cheezing content.

    Edit: Honestly that's the defense. This is okay because you exploit it. I don't think that makes it okay. It's a bad justification for what I believe is an unpopular decision.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Create a casual run for the strike missions then and specify it as being casual.

    People are well within their right to request people that join the groups that they created to meet certain DPS thresholds.

    Strikes are very much casual content, or at the very least, the three that rotate weekly. Whispers is debatable but doable by randoms with no raid experience. It just depends on their ability to pay attention.

    Strikes aren't casual content. Strikes are easier instanced content, but they're not casual because very often casuals don't organize. And the organization is the problem here. It's something many don't play a game to do. I will organize stuff myself, but I know my guild saw what raids did to them (as in caused a schism between better players and not so better players) and said screw this here we go again.

    You can say this is casual content, but it's really not. At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

    They're casual content. You don't need to organize for them unless going for all of the bonus chests. You wait in LFG just like you would for dungeons and fractals. The only difference is that it takes a little longer since you need 10 players instead of 5.

    You don't even -have- to wait in the LFG... touch the portal is all you need to do to play and complete the easier Strikes, and is more than enough to finish the zone meta. You can also go... solo and finish some of the meta achievements on your own. Or get a friend or two, in a big guild you might have some.

    You don't need to organize. You don't need 10 people. You don't need to wait. Strikes are not dungeons or fractals

    At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

    Good thing they aren't needed for the zone meta then. Is your problem that there are easy and hard Strikes? Is that what this is all about? That some Strikes are actually good content and not solo content?

    The point is there's a trend and I don't like the trend. You want strike missions, fine. Keep them out of zone metas. PvP and raids are separate, why should this be the exception?

    Not contesting the trend, we've already been over that, I expect the next batch of Strike Missions to have both easy and hard ones, just like this one. You fear that the next batch will -start- at the level of the last one from this one. I think Arenanet doesn't want to kill strike missions already. We'll see how that turns out.

    I'm contesting the idea that Strike Missions are not casual content and the idea that they need any kind of organization to succeed. The easier strike missions are casual content and require zero preparation or organization. Touch the zone exit, kill the boss, get out. No planning, no LFG, no team building, no builds, no rotations, no roles, nothing. And you can finish these easier ones to complete the meta, or get a few of the participation achievements of the harder ones. So there is no non-casual content required to finish the meta. That some of the later strike missions are harder is true, they do require preparation and organization, but they aren't needed for the meta.

    If it stays like this, with both easy and hard missions, casual and hardcore strike missions, would it be OK to have future Strike Missions in the meta? If indeed the problem is with the trend

    Well we just wiped on the Boneskinner and half the group left.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2020

    @yann.1946 said:

    You're missing the point of making better players.

    No. The game cannot make "better players". It can help improve mechanical skill of players, but that doesn't make them "better".

    Are you at this point a better player then when you started?

    No. I don't think so. I may be more experienced as far as GW2 mechanics are concerned, but that does not make me "better". In fact, i tend to avoid players that associate higher skill levels with some kind of superiority over other players, because those kinds of "better players" are often anything but.

    There are many ways of being a "good player" that aren't associated with skill. With the most important one revolving around not being a kitten.

    If you design your game well people will improve without themselves noticing.

    Their mechanical skill may improve, yes. Other qualities, not necessarily.

    As a developer you want this because it makes it easier to develop content wich feels meaningful to as many people as possible.

    "which feels meaningful to people that concern themselves with mechanical difficulty and skill", you mean. I'm here mostly for story and laid back entertainment, and strikes are not very meaningful in that regard.

    Even if raids where never introduced it would still be a good game design to make players improve.

    That would require a game designed in a way that helps faciliating that. GW2 is not that game - the class/build/combat system is extremely unintuitive, and designed in such a way that if the players want to improve, they need to do it completely on their own, with the game offering no help whatsoever in that regard.

    Besides, there's a catch - it may be a good design to help players improve, but it's a bad design to force them to improve.
    And while strikes may require improvement, they do not help players at all.

    On a side note, how would you feel about strikes if raids where never introduced?

    Pretty much the same. They should be a separate content, they should not be forced onto the main populace.

    The game being what it is, and the differences between average and top players being as big as they are, those two groups should never be mixed together in a single content. Because it will only end up being painful for both sides.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Well we just wiped on the Boneskinner and half the group left.

    Fraenir of Jormag
    Elemental Elegy
    Fraenir Frolic*
    High Shaman, High Stakes*

    Voice and Claw
    Break It Up
    Flawless Fallen*
    Kodan Dodger*

    Boneskinner
    Flickering Light
    Deathless Hunt*
    Hold onto the Light*

    Whisper of Jormag
    Reflections in the Ice
    Vortex, Interrupted
    Legendary Whisper of Jormag*
    Slither-less*
    Whisper Boxing*

    Sanctifier*

    The Strike Mission achievements, those with * require completion, the others do not. You need 37 achievements to complete the meta, 45 are available total in Shadow in the Ice, 15 Achievements are inside Strike Missions. This means you need 7 achievements from strike missions to complete the meta.

    Fraenir of Jormag is a very easy encounter and the achievements there are also relatively easy. The Voice and Claw is a bit more difficult encounter, but still not really hard. Sanctifier can be completed by killing the Fraenir and Kodan 20 times. That's 7 achievements without ever touching the harder Strike Missions.

    Now, if you find some of the Fraenir or Kodan achievements hard to complete you have the following options:
    Reflections in the Ice on the Whisper of Jormag is almost a freebie, Vortex Interrupted is also very much doable provided the team has unlocked the proper mastery, you will get enough vortexes before he reaches the harder parts of the fight. Both of these aren't hard to acquire and they do not demand killing the boss, get a team of 10 randoms (to more easily break the bar) and slowly lower his health while finishing the 2 achievements. Flickering Light can be completed without joining a group (as you did) but I'd suggest going there with a group anyway, I think that's a harder one to solo or do in a random group.

    There is enough achievements to finish without entering the Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag missions, and in case it is required, you don't need to kill them to progress.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Well we just wiped on the Boneskinner and half the group left.

    Fraenir of Jormag
    Elemental Elegy
    Fraenir Frolic*
    High Shaman, High Stakes*

    Voice and Claw
    Break It Up
    Flawless Fallen*
    Kodan Dodger*

    Boneskinner
    Flickering Light
    Deathless Hunt*
    Hold onto the Light*

    Whisper of Jormag
    Reflections in the Ice
    Vortex, Interrupted
    Legendary Whisper of Jormag*
    Slither-less*
    Whisper Boxing*

    Sanctifier*

    The Strike Mission achievements, those with * require completion, the others do not. You need 37 achievements to complete the meta, 45 are available total in Shadow in the Ice, 15 Achievements are inside Strike Missions. This means you need 7 achievements from strike missions to complete the meta.

    Fraenir of Jormag is a very easy encounter and the achievements there are also relatively easy. The Voice and Claw is a bit more difficult encounter, but still not really hard. Sanctifier can be completed by killing the Fraenir and Kodan 20 times. That's 7 achievements without ever touching the harder Strike Missions.

    Now, if you find some of the Fraenir or Kodan achievements hard to complete you have the following options:
    Reflections in the Ice on the Whisper of Jormag is almost a freebie, Vortex Interrupted is also very much doable provided the team has unlocked the proper mastery, you will get enough vortexes before he reaches the harder parts of the fight. Both of these aren't hard to acquire and they do not demand killing the boss, get a team of 10 randoms (to more easily break the bar) and slowly lower his health while finishing the 2 achievements. Flickering Light can be completed without joining a group (as you did) but I'd suggest going there with a group anyway, I think that's a harder one to solo or do in a random group.

    There is enough achievements to finish without entering the Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag missions, and in case it is required, you don't need to kill them to progress.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Well we just wiped on the Boneskinner and half the group left.

    Fraenir of Jormag
    Elemental Elegy
    Fraenir Frolic*
    High Shaman, High Stakes*

    Voice and Claw
    Break It Up
    Flawless Fallen*
    Kodan Dodger*

    Boneskinner
    Flickering Light
    Deathless Hunt*
    Hold onto the Light*

    Whisper of Jormag
    Reflections in the Ice
    Vortex, Interrupted
    Legendary Whisper of Jormag*
    Slither-less*
    Whisper Boxing*

    Sanctifier*

    The Strike Mission achievements, those with * require completion, the others do not. You need 37 achievements to complete the meta, 45 are available total in Shadow in the Ice, 15 Achievements are inside Strike Missions. This means you need 7 achievements from strike missions to complete the meta.

    Fraenir of Jormag is a very easy encounter and the achievements there are also relatively easy. The Voice and Claw is a bit more difficult encounter, but still not really hard. Sanctifier can be completed by killing the Fraenir and Kodan 20 times. That's 7 achievements without ever touching the harder Strike Missions.

    Now, if you find some of the Fraenir or Kodan achievements hard to complete you have the following options:
    Reflections in the Ice on the Whisper of Jormag is almost a freebie, Vortex Interrupted is also very much doable provided the team has unlocked the proper mastery, you will get enough vortexes before he reaches the harder parts of the fight. Both of these aren't hard to acquire and they do not demand killing the boss, get a team of 10 randoms (to more easily break the bar) and slowly lower his health while finishing the 2 achievements. Flickering Light can be completed without joining a group (as you did) but I'd suggest going there with a group anyway, I think that's a harder one to solo or do in a random group.

    There is enough achievements to finish without entering the Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag missions, and in case it is required, you don't need to kill them to progress.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Well we just wiped on the Boneskinner and half the group left.

    Fraenir of Jormag
    Elemental Elegy
    Fraenir Frolic*
    High Shaman, High Stakes*

    Voice and Claw
    Break It Up
    Flawless Fallen*
    Kodan Dodger*

    Boneskinner
    Flickering Light
    Deathless Hunt*
    Hold onto the Light*

    Whisper of Jormag
    Reflections in the Ice
    Vortex, Interrupted
    Legendary Whisper of Jormag*
    Slither-less*
    Whisper Boxing*

    Sanctifier*

    The Strike Mission achievements, those with * require completion, the others do not. You need 37 achievements to complete the meta, 45 are available total in Shadow in the Ice, 15 Achievements are inside Strike Missions. This means you need 7 achievements from strike missions to complete the meta.

    Fraenir of Jormag is a very easy encounter and the achievements there are also relatively easy. The Voice and Claw is a bit more difficult encounter, but still not really hard. Sanctifier can be completed by killing the Fraenir and Kodan 20 times. That's 7 achievements without ever touching the harder Strike Missions.

    Now, if you find some of the Fraenir or Kodan achievements hard to complete you have the following options:
    Reflections in the Ice on the Whisper of Jormag is almost a freebie, Vortex Interrupted is also very much doable provided the team has unlocked the proper mastery, you will get enough vortexes before he reaches the harder parts of the fight. Both of these aren't hard to acquire and they do not demand killing the boss, get a team of 10 randoms (to more easily break the bar) and slowly lower his health while finishing the 2 achievements. Flickering Light can be completed without joining a group (as you did) but I'd suggest going there with a group anyway, I think that's a harder one to solo or do in a random group.

    There is enough achievements to finish without entering the Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag missions, and in case it is required, you don't need to kill them to progress.

    OKay you're still not seeing what I'm seeing so I'll try again.

    This specific round, sure you can get a bunch of them and cheeze some of them and in general make do. But I don't play games to make do. Right now, at this moment,. doing either of those strike missions even five times sours me from teh game. I don't LIKE the content. I don't want to do the content. I don't think I should have to. I have never had to do that content before.

    You're saying this time we can get away with this, but that's all we're really doing. Getting away with it. This time. And I think that's a bad way to run a railroad. You seeem to be thinking I CAN'T get the meta. I know I CAN get the meta. It's a totally horrid process for me that was never a horrid process before. It turns me off from the game and makes me not want to play it.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    You're missing the point of making better players.

    No. The game cannot make "better players". It can help improve mechanical skill of players, but that doesn't make them "better".

    Are you at this point a better player then when you started?

    No. I don't think so. I may be more experienced as far as GW2 mechanics are concerned, but that does not make me "better". In fact, i tend to avoid players that associate higher skill levels with some kind of superiority over other players, because those kinds of "better players" are often anything but.

    There are many ways of being a "good player" that aren't associated with skill. With the most important one revolving around not being a kitten.

    If you design your game well people will improve without themselves noticing.

    Their mechanical skill may improve, yes. Other qualities, not necessarily.

    As a developer you want this because it makes it easier to develop content wich feels meaningful to as many people as possible.

    "which feels meaningful to people that concern themselves with mechanical difficulty and skill", you mean. I'm here mostly for story and laid back entertainment, and strikes are not very meaningful in that regard.

    Even if raids where never introduced it would still be a good game design to make players improve.

    That would require a game designed in a way that helps faciliating that. GW2 is not that game - the class/build/combat system is extremely unintuitive, and designed in such a way that if the players want to improve, they need to do it completely on their own, with the game offering no help whatsoever in that regard.

    Besides, there's a catch - it may be a good design to help players improve, but it's a bad design to force them to improve.
    And while strikes may require improvement, they do not help players at all.

    On a side note, how would you feel about strikes if raids where never introduced?

    Pretty much the same. They should be a separate content, they should not be forced onto the main populace.

    The game being what it is, and the differences between average and top players being as big as they are, those two groups should never be mixed together in a single content. Because it will only end up being painful for both sides.

    We'll I meant better as mechanical better and more well-versed with the systems. Not as in a better person. I would think that was obvious but I guess not.

    And no the meaningfull doesn't nessecarily means for those who enjoy mechanical skill.

    Let's give an example.
    Take caduceus for example.
    That boss is meaningfull from a story perspective because of his background.
    Its attacks have meaning because of the visuals, story and impact.
    But this lead to a discontent with people wo only are interested in the story vs those only interested in the mechanical challenge.

    If you make the gap of mechanical skill smaller both parties can get some meaningfull experience from the boss fight.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2020

    @yann.1946 said:
    If you make the gap of mechanical skill smaller both parties can get some meaningfull experience from the boss fight.

    Yes. Unfortunately, this game cannot make that gap smaller. It would require not things like Strikes, but actual mechanical changes to the things that are the reason behind such a big effectiveness disparity. And those changes would need to be way bigger than what the game can afford to do now. I mean, we're talking now not about the expac level changes, but about something on the level of "Gw2 Remake" or "GW3". So, major rewrite of combat/class/gear/build system.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    If you make the gap of mechanical skill smaller both parties can get some meaningfull experience from the boss fight.

    Yes. Unfortunately, this game cannot make that gap smaller. It would require not things like Strikes, but actual mechanical changes to the things that are the reason behind such a big effectiveness disparity. And those changes would need to be way bigger than what the game can afford to do now. I mean, we're talking now not about the expac level changes, but about something on the level of "Gw2 Remake" or "GW3". So, major rewrite of combat/class/gear/build system.

    Maybe, i mean the new player achievement thing might help a little. I do think some things can be done without having to rewrite the basis of the game.

    I agree that strikes alone won't help on their one. They might give motivation though and can improve purely mechanical skill.

    In the end, to me the point of vayne i responded to had more to do with the fact that he dismissed wanting player to be mechanical better with wanting them into raids.
    Which is not the same thing, and wanting your playerbase to be mechanical better should not be seen as a bad thing.

    Edit: My standard outlook of gamedesign is quite omnivorous. I personaly think a game should strive to let people experience as much of its content as possible. i wouldn't mind their too be pvp and WvW achievements with the meta , even if i don't enjoy those mode personally, if that were parts that where released with the episode. I understand that lots of people wouldn't want such a thing so i won't advocate for it. This was more to explain where my views come from. And my intent is to let as much people enjoy the content, which means you can't just make it for one side( as far a their are sides here.)