If the new balance patch is supposed to be decreasing damage by just about 33%...

Then why does it utterly completely obliterate condi rifle deadeyes damage output by atleast half into possible unviability?

because removing condi rifle deadeye makes the game better, just like how they removed defy pain and last stand and how they removed one dodge from mirage.it just makes the game better for everyone

@"lighter.2708" said:because removing condi rifle deadeye makes the game better, just like how they removed defy pain and last stand and how they removed one dodge from mirage.it just makes the game better for everyone

Why? It's not even meta.

Are you capable of reacting to changes to classes you play with anything other than disdain?

Much of the changes they are doing seem to be for "future proofing" so as to avoid them significantly complicating how things turn out once the update goes live, as well as many things being left open to change for incremental patches afterwards as well.

Condi DE is kind of an annoying menace with all of the immob, poison and stealth. Particularly so in WvW and WvW also won't be seeing the same reductions on Condi duration as sPvP is getting due to the changes to Runes not applying in it. Considering its immob didn't get touched essentially at all, for that matter it actually got buffed with a .5 increase on the immob duration for Spotter's Shot, Condi DE immob spam is likely going to be a much bigger pest after the update.

Ideally they would have gone after immob duration, but cutting down on the amount of Poison stacks one needs to worry about could mitigate the problem. We'll see.

@"KryTiKaL.3125" said:Are you capable of reacting to changes to classes you play with anything other than disdain?

Much of the changes they are doing seem to be for "future proofing" so as to avoid them significantly complicating how things turn out once the update goes live, as well as many things being left open to change for incremental patches afterwards as well.

Condi DE is kind of an annoying menace with all of the immob, poison and stealth. Particularly so in WvW and WvW also won't be seeing the same reductions on Condi duration as sPvP is getting due to the changes to Runes not applying in it. Considering its immob didn't get touched essentially at all, for that matter it actually got buffed with a .5 increase on the immob duration for Spotter's Shot, Condi DE immob spam is likely going to be a much bigger pest after the update.

Ideally they would have gone after immob duration, but cutting down on the amount of Poison stacks one needs to worry about could mitigate the problem. We'll see.

Really half the duration is half the damage, doesn't matter if you get more immob really, expertise scales terribly now as it is percentagw based, you literally need 100% duration just to get it back to the old duration, this cuts damage in half as i already use 84% duration.

This change completely guts the build and makes no sense as they said they would be increasing condi durations, not reducing.

Good. Deadeye needs more nerfs.

Better question is why Pulmonary Impact, a trait that is already pretty garbage, is getting a 50% nerf (oh yeah, fun fact: The wiki numbers are wrong because years ago when they nerfed Pulmonary Impact, instead of nerfing by 29% as intended, they accidentally nerfed it by over 50%). If anything Pulmonary Impact shouldve been increased to actually be 2.0, and maybe D/P using headshot wouldve been viable again.

I've been running condi deadeye as one of my roaming builds for a while since it hard counters some classes, and honestly it's an absurd build in the same way condi mirage is absurd. The game is better off without both, frankly.

Stealth is already powerful. A stealth build that is also tanky shouldn't exist.

@Doug.4930 said:Stealth is already powerful. A stealth build that is also tanky shouldn't exist.

Àny build can be tanky by slotting in tanky gear, the build isn't tanky at all inherently, i use tanky gear.]

@Yasai.3549 said:Good. Deadeye needs more nerfs.

Why? Are they even top tier compared to mirages, soulbeasts, core warriors etc? Most poeple play onetrick pony builds that only kills poeple with bad glass builds.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:I've been running condi deadeye as one of my roaming builds for a while since it hard counters some classes, and honestly it's an absurd build in the same way condi mirage is absurd. The game is better off without both, frankly.

If it was so absurd you'd see more of them, yet 95% of DE i see are power.

@Anput.4620 said:Then why does it utterly completely obliterate condi rifle deadeyes damage output by atleast half into possible unviability?

Sometimes, you have to break things in order to correctly build them back up.

@Anput.4620 said:

@Doug.4930 said:Stealth is already powerful. A stealth build that is also tanky shouldn't exist.

The build I'm talking about is the poison stacking condi stealth DE that builds toughness. That thing should be buried and never spoken about again.

@Doug.4930 said:

@Anput.4620 said:

@Doug.4930 said:Stealth is already powerful. A stealth build that is also tanky shouldn't exist.

Yes, what about it? Is it meta? I play it and i never see anyone else play it, meanwhile we have many better roaming builds that are way less niche.

Building toughness into a roaming build will make you harder to kill but even a little cleanse will shut this build down.

A build that mainly stacks poison isn’t going to have enough cover condi to kill a lot of builds. Maybe it will kill Zerg builds designed for groups. But any build meant for 1v1 will be pretty competitive.

Not saying it can never work but I’d say this isn’t some sleeper OP build.

@Anput.4620 said:

@Doug.4930 said:Stealth is already powerful. A stealth build that is also tanky shouldn't exist.

@Yasai.3549 said:Good. Deadeye needs more nerfs.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:I've been running condi deadeye as one of my roaming builds for a while since it hard counters some classes, and honestly it's an absurd build in the same way condi mirage is absurd. The game is better off without both, frankly.

It's not like it's a common build, but it's not like DE are that common either. Not to mention 95% of people playing DE have no clue what they're doing and go for the one shot burst because they watched a video on YouTube, appealing to the masses isn't really a sound argument here.

Having P/D malicious sneak attacks capable of getting 5k+ ticks in less than a second that last for 12s+ that also heal you for 2k per go and can be spammed pretty consistently off the reveal timer while also having 3k armor, close to permastealth if needed and a 1500 range condi poke with mark/spotters shot is kinda ridiculous if you know how to play it. It's my preferred 1vX build for a reason, and frankly I'm fine with it getting nerfed as it's not really fun to play against, it's just absurdly effective, hence the comparison to condi mirage.

@Anput.4620 said:

@Doug.4930 said:

@Anput.4620 said:

@Doug.4930 said:Stealth is already powerful. A stealth build that is also tanky shouldn't exist.

Doesnt matter if its meta or not.

Cancer is cancer and should be removed.

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:

@Anput.4620 said:

@Doug.4930 said:

@Anput.4620 said:

@Doug.4930 said:Stealth is already powerful. A stealth build that is also tanky shouldn't exist.

And why is it "cancer"? Who decides that? You? Balancing should be done purely by performance.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Anput.4620 said:

@Doug.4930 said:Stealth is already powerful. A stealth build that is also tanky shouldn't exist.

@Yasai.3549 said:Good. Deadeye needs more nerfs.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:I've been running condi deadeye as one of my roaming builds for a while since it hard counters some classes, and honestly it's an absurd build in the same way condi mirage is absurd. The game is better off without both, frankly.

If the build isn't good enough to be meta, and DE is so uncommon, then why is 90% of bitching on here about DE? Condi mirage is infinitely better, this build folds to poeple that have any amount of small cleanses, try to kill a weaver with it.

I don't get this games community where everything on the opinion of competitive balance is upside down, why don't we balance straight going off performance and advantages given equal skill?

@"Anput.4620" said:

I don't get this games community where everything on the opinion of competitive balance is upside down, why don't we balance straight going off performance and advantages given equal skill?

Because there is no easy way to accurately measure skill when a bulk of this skill is used to perfect fundamentally flawed design.

Is Stealth Spam good design? Nope.Can a player be skilled in abusing stealth? Yes.

Is Bunker Condi Weaver good design? Nope.Can a player be skilled enough to rotate their cooldowns properly and become extremely hard to kill while dealing so much Burn damage? Yes.

Is CC lock down good design? Nope.Can a player be skilled enough and knowledgable enough to find opportunities to apply their CC chain when they know the opponent has no answer for it? Yes.

Skill is subjective in Gw2 imo, because there are just so much things to talk about in a direct 1v1.

That's why there are cases where people say "Oh it's just a really skilled Profession X" not "Oh it's just a skilled player" because not all Professions are created equal.

This is why when people say "x is op, what do" people always reply :Play the class yur weak against and find out

80% of skill is actually knowledge ; the knowledge of what yur facing and how to abuse their weakness.

If yu can't abuse their weakness in yur current matchup : run.

@Yasai.3549 said:

@"Anput.4620" said:

I don't get this games community where everything on the opinion of competitive balance is upside down, why don't we balance straight going off performance and advantages given equal skill?

What is bad about stealth?

Bunker weaver is fine? Fire weaver is overtuned, but not bad design.

Why is CC lock inherently flawed design, once again?

It is all abouth how well it does something, not what it does. This sounds like when poeple in TCG's call control decks bad because they are "not fun" even though they are balanced. I don't believe in things like unfun/fun etc, just balance based on raw performance.

@"Anput.4620" said:

What is bad about stealth?

Bunker weaver is fine? Fire weaver is overtuned, but not bad design.

Why is CC lock inherently flawed design, once again?

It is all abouth how well it does something, not what it does. This sounds like when poeple in TCG's call control decks bad because they are "not fun" even though they are balanced. I don't believe in things like unfun/fun etc, just balance based on raw performance.

I mean all yur answers can be easily answered with :It has little or no counterplay and is an extremely degenerative playstyle.

In fact I'll go abit further to say "Burst" playstyle is also very degenerative playstyle, which may be why all skills are being nerfed in PvP and WvW settings to make TTK higher.

Somethings aren't even "what is being done well" either.

Take Power Scourge for example.Scourge was never designed to be a power DPS, and it doesn't actually do this "well" either"It's still being widely played in WvW as the core DPS of Zergs due to alot of stuff Necro can already do (Like Staff mark stack spam) and combining it with wide, long ranged corruption.If say, Renegade could provide extreme boon corruption from 1200 range, I'll bet Scourge will be slowly phased out due to how much teamplay potential Renegade has over Scourge.

Yur free to believe that there is no such thing as unfun/fun, but fact remains there are certain aspects of each profession which are inherently unhealthy to put in a competitive environment where all players desire "fairer" fights on even grounds, which calls again for balances every now and then.

Now what I don't understand is how Anet goes about their balances because sometimes they just break builds entirely and refuse to rollback on their reworks.

@Yasai.3549 said:

@"Anput.4620" said:

What is bad about stealth?

Bunker weaver is fine? Fire weaver is overtuned, but not bad design.

Why is CC lock inherently flawed design, once again?

It is all abouth

how well

it does something, not

what

it does. This sounds like when poeple in TCG's call control decks bad because they are "not fun" even though they are balanced. I don't believe in things like unfun/fun etc, just balance based on raw performance.

Little to no counterplay how? Also, degenerative playstyle means nothing as that is once again completely subjective. Ever played Engineer with pulsing reveal and just whop them down in 2 hits?

What is wrong about burst? I can only think of 2 annoying burst builds atm that are hard to avoid, being power DE and mesmer, one of which is a onetrick pony that folds to any decent build with some defenses and another which burst can be evaded a bit eassier.

Scourge has good raw performance, thats what its about, it does enough things to fill its job and do well. I wasn't talking about a specific thing, just doing well as a meta build.

Howeso are they inherently unhealthy if they aren't overperforming? Also, if players want these fair fights then why is literally everyone in the downstate thread i made going against common PvP balance sense argueing that it is fair that bigger numbers should have an extra crutch advantage in addition to being inherently advantaged due to having bigger numbers.

Why does almost everyone i see in WvW just want to roll poeple over while running away as fast as they can from fair balanced fights? Often comming back with 4 poeple extra and then jump on your corpse, or blobs not fighting but going to ktrain somewhere else?

WvW feels like a playground, not a competitive mode, and poeple heavilly defend it as they want it to be that. Warclaws, waypointing instantly from anywhere, downstate as is, rally, defense on walls, all these things would sound nonsensical to any PvP community of any popular competitive PvP game, but are praised here.

@Anput.4620 said:

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:

@Anput.4620 said:

@Doug.4930 said:

@Anput.4620 said:

@Doug.4930 said:Stealth is already powerful. A stealth build that is also tanky shouldn't exist.

Thats simply wrong.

Fun is a huge part of balancing.

Any game needs to be fun on ALL levels of play and competitive after that.

People decide if something is fun/ not fun to play against.

You could say its a L2P issue but there will always be players on a lower level. Why should they suffer?

Everything thats anti fun by design needs to be removed.

@Anput.4620 said:

Little to no counterplay how? Also, degenerative playstyle means nothing as that is once again completely subjective. Ever played Engineer with pulsing reveal and just whop them down in 2 hits?

Engi does not pulse it.Yu should have mentioned being tagged by DH Spear or Magebane.Still, only two actual professions with correct builds can lockdown a Stealth spammer, amongst the 20 over various builds in existence?

Sounds like this Reveal thing needs to be given to more people. whistles

What is wrong about burst? I can only think of 2 annoying burst builds atm that are hard to avoid, being power DE and mesmer, one of which is a onetrick pony that folds to any decent build with some defenses and another which burst can be evaded a bit eassier.

Nothing actually wrong with it.But Burst playstyle does make people become extremely creative with what a profession can do in order to achieve this with high rates of success, giving birth to extremely oppressive encounters.Sic'em pew pew Ranger is one such example, and god bless that it got nerfed.Scourge has good raw performance, thats what its about, it does enough things to fill its job and do well. I wasn't talking about a specific thing, just doing well as a meta build.

Yea it has good raw performance at corrupting boons from a distance, in pulses, and AoE.And the only Profession that can do so.Like I said, if yu give this capability to other Professions, Reaper even, Scourge may get a significant drop in popularity because they don't actually have tasty damage numbers on Desert Shroud. (7x 840base total with 3.15 scaling is not very good)

Howeso are they inherently unhealthy if they aren't overperforming? Also, if players want these fair fights then why is literally everyone in the downstate thread i made going against common PvP balance sense argueing that it is fair that bigger numbers should have an extra crutch advantage in addition to being inherently advantaged due to having bigger numbers.

Cough cough I don't main Necro, I main Necro downstate Cough cough.Technically Scourge has always dominated PvP for their entire lifespan, with Control Points as the objectives playing in their favour, since they can focus their cancer onto a single point.

Why does almost everyone i see in WvW just want to roll poeple over while running away as fast as they can from fair balanced fights? Often comming back with 4 poeple extra and then jump on your corpse, or blobs not fighting but going to ktrain somewhere else?

Because some builds are inherently better at 1v1s or 1vX and they just aren't?So those which can't will wanna get a quick cheap kill, while those who can wanna make montages.Yur looking more at different sort of player behaviour now, because every Profession can do both of these to some extent.

WvW feels like a playground, not a competitive mode, and poeple heavilly defend it as they want it to be that. Warclaws, waypointing instantly from anywhere, downstate as is, rally, defense on walls, all these things would sound nonsensical to any PvP community of any popular competitive PvP game, but are praised here.

Agree.But then again WvW is a warzone so idk how arena combat will even begin to make sense in WvW.

@Anput.4620 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Anput.4620 said:

@Doug.4930 said:Stealth is already powerful. A stealth build that is also tanky shouldn't exist.

@Yasai.3549 said:Good. Deadeye needs more nerfs.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:I've been running condi deadeye as one of my roaming builds for a while since it hard counters some classes, and honestly it's an absurd build in the same way condi mirage is absurd. The game is better off without both, frankly.

I never said that it's not good enough to be meta, it's good enough to beat most things if played well, and since build templates are a thing you don't need to cover everything with one build anymore so it hardly matters if it's countered by something like weaver (although bad weavers and firebrand have still lost to it lol). One of the main reasons I play it is because condi DE often counters your average condi mirage when built properly because the reapplication outpaces their cleanse while their damage has a longer downtime between spikes, it's one of the reasons I still prefer trailblazer gear over dire (although hybrid has its uses).

Frankly the main reason you don't see more is because a lot of players simply hate condi on principle, and 90% of the crying about DE of any stripe in here is done for the same reason I don't mind seeing condi DE nerfed; people just plain don't find it engaging to fight. It's got nothing to do with its effectiveness, really, just preference. At least as far as WvW goes; PvP is a different beast, obviously.