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Top 3 reasons why raids only attracted a small audience

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  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2020

    It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.
    To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.
    Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks.

  • @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.
    To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.
    Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

    Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

    Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2020

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.
    To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.
    Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

    Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

    Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

    The question then becomes:
    Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

    A. stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this content
    or
    B. stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

    The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

    Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

    I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.
    To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.
    Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

    Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

    Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

    The question then becomes:
    Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

    A. stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this content
    or
    B. stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

    The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

    Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

    I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

    To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:

    1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
    2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

    If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.
    To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.
    Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

    Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

    Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

    The question then becomes:
    Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

    A. stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this content
    or
    B. stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

    The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

    Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

    I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

    To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:

    1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
    2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

    If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

    That is your worst argument yet. You are def slipping. Can't believe you still come to this thread.

    WvW bandwagoners have small D's and never left their house even before Covid19

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2020

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.
    To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.
    Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

    Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

    Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

    The question then becomes:
    Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

    A. stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this content
    or
    B. stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

    The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

    Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

    I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

    To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:

    1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
    2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

    If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

    That is your worst argument yet. You are def slipping. Can't believe you still come to this thread.

    I can't believe that if this is my worst argument yet ... the best you can do is not present a counter argument. Actually, I'm lying ... I do believe you have no counter argument ... it's par for the course.

    . The fact is that content is linked to revenues. If you think Anet will continue to develop content that doesn't make them money, that's just another example of how you don't understand the business model .... for ANYTHING.

    Why is Anet going to develop raids if raids aren't a profitable part of the business? or is that just another 'worst argument yet' for you?

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.
    To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.
    Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

    Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

    Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

    The question then becomes:
    Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

    A. stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this content
    or
    B. stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

    The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

    Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

    I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

    To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:

    1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
    2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

    If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

    That is your worst argument yet. You are def slipping. Can't believe you still come to this thread.

    I can't believe that if this is my worst argument yet ... the best you can do is not present something that's an alternative.

    Actually, check that ... I can believe you have no counter argument ... par for the course. The truth is that content is linked to revenues. If you think Anet will continue to develop content that doesn't make them money, that's just another example of how you don't understand the business model .... for ANYTHING.

    Yes, lol cause it's the typically obtena argument. Both 1 and 2 are the exact same thing btw you just swap it around. We can't prove you and I can only guess. I can only add is I do everything but raid but bought 0 gems ever.

    WvW bandwagoners have small D's and never left their house even before Covid19

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.
    To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.
    Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

    Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

    Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

    The question then becomes:
    Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

    A. stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this content
    or
    B. stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

    The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

    Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

    I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

    To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:

    1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
    2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

    If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

    That is your worst argument yet. You are def slipping. Can't believe you still come to this thread.

    I can't believe that if this is my worst argument yet ... the best you can do is not present something that's an alternative.

    Actually, check that ... I can believe you have no counter argument ... par for the course. The truth is that content is linked to revenues. If you think Anet will continue to develop content that doesn't make them money, that's just another example of how you don't understand the business model .... for ANYTHING.

    Yes, lol cause it's the typically obtena argument. Both 1 and 2 are the exact same thing btw you just swap it around. We can't prove you and I can only guess. I can only add is I do everything but raid but bought 0 gems ever.

    Hey, it's a simple question here ... if raid content was making Anet a profit, why would they stop developing it? It's my worst argument yet? Great ... then you should have a REALLY good counter argument. You shouldn't even need to think too hard about it ... or are you just blowing smoke here?

    Nothing is slipping ... it makes no sense for a business to develop or offer services/products that don't make profits unless they are loss leaders. It's unreasonable to propose that raids aren't being developed because they weren't profitable? Sure ... you got me. :trollface:

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.
    To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.
    Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

    Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

    Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

    The question then becomes:
    Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

    A. stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this content
    or
    B. stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

    The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

    Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

    I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

    To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:

    1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
    2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

    If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

    That is your worst argument yet. You are def slipping. Can't believe you still come to this thread.

    I can't believe that if this is my worst argument yet ... the best you can do is not present something that's an alternative.

    Actually, check that ... I can believe you have no counter argument ... par for the course. The truth is that content is linked to revenues. If you think Anet will continue to develop content that doesn't make them money, that's just another example of how you don't understand the business model .... for ANYTHING.

    Yes, lol cause it's the typically obtena argument. Both 1 and 2 are the exact same thing btw you just swap it around. We can't prove you and I can only guess. I can only add is I do everything but raid but bought 0 gems ever.

    Hey, it's a simple question here ... if raid content was making Anet a profit, why would they stop developing it? It's my worst argument yet? Great ... then you should have a REALLY good counter argument. You shouldn't even need to think too hard about it ... or are you just blowing smoke here?

    You must forget who you argued with prior. Now you trying to rehash stuff. I don't need to argue something you can't prove. You have no idea if some whale raided and spent $10,000 on gems or if that whale only did pve content or WvW content but wanted to look pretty. It gets canceled because 100 possible reasons all better then the players who raided didn't buy gems. They make money on skins and storage and qol stuff otherwise WvW/PvP would of been abandoned years ago cause how do those make money with barely any gem store items attached? So no gem spending by a raider had nothing to do with why they stopped. You just like to have extended arguments. Dam you It's reset mean distraction

    WvW bandwagoners have small D's and never left their house even before Covid19

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.
    To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.
    Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

    Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

    Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

    The question then becomes:
    Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

    A. stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this content
    or
    B. stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

    The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

    Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

    I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

    To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:

    1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
    2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

    If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

    That is your worst argument yet. You are def slipping. Can't believe you still come to this thread.

    I can't believe that if this is my worst argument yet ... the best you can do is not present something that's an alternative.

    Actually, check that ... I can believe you have no counter argument ... par for the course. The truth is that content is linked to revenues. If you think Anet will continue to develop content that doesn't make them money, that's just another example of how you don't understand the business model .... for ANYTHING.

    Yes, lol cause it's the typically obtena argument. Both 1 and 2 are the exact same thing btw you just swap it around. We can't prove you and I can only guess. I can only add is I do everything but raid but bought 0 gems ever.

    Hey, it's a simple question here ... if raid content was making Anet a profit, why would they stop developing it? It's my worst argument yet? Great ... then you should have a REALLY good counter argument. You shouldn't even need to think too hard about it ... or are you just blowing smoke here?

    You must forget who you argued with prior.

    Nope, didn't forget ... still arguing with the same people that don't understand how business works and have a hard time understanding what they are reading.

    BTW, still waiting for that counter argument against the idea that a business will drop products and services if those products/services aren't profitable. Or an explanation that if raid content was making Anet a profit, why would they stop developing it? Either will do in this case.

    It gets canceled because 100 possible reasons better then the players who raided didn't buy gems

    GREAT!!!!! Then it shouldn't be hard for you to tell me even ONE of them right?

    And just to be clear, I didn't say raiders don't buy gems. Again, if you're going to have a go with me, the comprehension skills are going to have to go up a few notches.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.
    To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.
    Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

    Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

    Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

    The question then becomes:
    Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

    A. stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this content
    or
    B. stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

    The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

    Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

    I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

    To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:

    1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
    2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

    If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

    I can't follow this argument, and I doubt so do you.

    Not in light of the 2019 layoffs and complete 180 on Arenanets devotion to the game.

    There was a very clear indication that the studio was working on moving on from GW2, which has been reverted over the last year.

    As such, I politely disagree with your hypothesis. Raids suffered lack of content as did the test of the game, only they were not a high priority to begin with, which resulted in a similar departure of players similar to pvp and wvw.

    The current focus and strong attempt to solidify instanced content also disagrees with your highly subjective and unfounded theory. As does the returned focus on pvp and wvw. If at all, I'd argue the developers are trying desperatly to encourge as diverse as possible a player pool, because one player type will not sustain this game (even less the casual I drop in every few moths casual crowd). Devoted players spend money.

    Given all these developments, I'd argue even open world content and players were not generating enough revenue, since the game was pretty much almost on maintanance mode overall. Read into that what you want. We have left the sphere of rational reasoning with your arguments already.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.
    To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.
    Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

    Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

    Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

    The question then becomes:
    Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

    A. stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this content
    or
    B. stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

    The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

    Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

    I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

    To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:

    1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
    2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

    If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

    I can't follow this argument, and I doubt so do you.

    You should know better to assume I'm just spouting off without being able to explain myself. The concept here is not complicated. Anet can measure how much a person spends and how much time they send in game doing various things. Therefore, it's not hard to see how much revenue is generated per minute spent raiding vs other activities for all players. If the aggregate revenue doesn't equal the cost to develop and maintain the content that is associated with it, it's not profitable to continue developing that content.

    Why is it so unreasonable to ANYONE that Anet would not continue to develop content that is not profitable? Why is that SO CRAZY to believe that?

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.
    To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.
    Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

    Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

    Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

    The question then becomes:
    Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

    A. stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this content
    or
    B. stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

    The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

    Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

    I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

    To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:

    1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
    2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

    If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

    I can't follow this argument, and I doubt so do you.

    You should know better to assume I'm just spouting off without being able to explain myself. The concept here is not complicated. Anet can measure how much a person spends and how much time they send in game doing various things. Therefore, it's not hard to see how much revenue is generated per minute spent raiding vs other activities. If the revenue doesn't equal the cost to develop and maintain the content, it's not profitable. Why is it so unreasonable to ANYONE that Anet would not continue to develop content that is not profitable? Why is that SO CRAZY to believe that?

    Which part of "this game was close to shutting down" was it you missed? Should I repeat myself?

    The reasons raid content, pvp and wvw were neglected can easily be explained without looking at revenue.

    The weakest last quarter end of last year too.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.
    To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.
    Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

    Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

    Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

    The question then becomes:
    Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

    A. stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this content
    or
    B. stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

    The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

    Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

    I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

    To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:

    1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
    2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

    If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

    I can't follow this argument, and I doubt so do you.

    You should know better to assume I'm just spouting off without being able to explain myself. The concept here is not complicated. Anet can measure how much a person spends and how much time they send in game doing various things. Therefore, it's not hard to see how much revenue is generated per minute spent raiding vs other activities. If the revenue doesn't equal the cost to develop and maintain the content, it's not profitable. Why is it so unreasonable to ANYONE that Anet would not continue to develop content that is not profitable? Why is that SO CRAZY to believe that?

    Which part of "this game was close to shutting down" was it you missed? Should I repeat myself?

    The reasons raid content, pvp and wvw were neglected can easily be explained without looking at revenue.

    The weakest last quarter end of last year too.

    Repeat yourself all you like ... it doesn't make what I said any less true. If you don't think revenues are what drives the decisions on what Anet offers for content, I really don't have much to say. Somehow you don't believe the main factor for a business to decide what product/services to offer isn't revenues? That's .... interesting I guess. I would be interested in hearing what you DO think is the factor that determines what Anet focuses on for offerings ... if it's not related to revenues.

    I mean ... you say the game was close to shutting down ... you don't think that has anything to do with revenue? I'm pretty sure it does ... but I'm all ears to hear what you think.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.
    To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.
    Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

    Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

    Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

    The question then becomes:
    Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

    A. stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this content
    or
    B. stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

    The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

    Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

    I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

    To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:

    1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
    2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

    If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

    I can't follow this argument, and I doubt so do you.

    You should know better to assume I'm just spouting off without being able to explain myself. The concept here is not complicated. Anet can measure how much a person spends and how much time they send in game doing various things. Therefore, it's not hard to see how much revenue is generated per minute spent raiding vs other activities. If the revenue doesn't equal the cost to develop and maintain the content, it's not profitable. Why is it so unreasonable to ANYONE that Anet would not continue to develop content that is not profitable? Why is that SO CRAZY to believe that?

    Which part of "this game was close to shutting down" was it you missed? Should I repeat myself?

    The reasons raid content, pvp and wvw were neglected can easily be explained without looking at revenue.

    The weakest last quarter end of last year too.

    Repeat yourself all you like ... it doesn't make what I said any less true. If you don't think revenues are what drives the decisions on what Anet offers for content, I really don't have much to say. Somehow you don't believe the main factor for a business to decide what product/services to offer isn't revenues? That's .... interesting I guess.

    I do think revenue drives a company.

    In light of this fact, I feel rather confident in my assumptions being far more founded than yours given the latest patches which have focused on supporting more than just open world content.

    So yes, revenue dictates a business actions, ans the latest actions suggest the devs value:

    • pvp
    • wvw
    • instanced content
    • not exclusive open world content
    • and overall more and more varied content
  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.
    To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.
    Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

    Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

    Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

    The question then becomes:
    Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

    A. stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this content
    or
    B. stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

    The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

    Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

    I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

    To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:

    1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
    2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

    If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

    I can't follow this argument, and I doubt so do you.

    You should know better to assume I'm just spouting off without being able to explain myself. The concept here is not complicated. Anet can measure how much a person spends and how much time they send in game doing various things. Therefore, it's not hard to see how much revenue is generated per minute spent raiding vs other activities. If the revenue doesn't equal the cost to develop and maintain the content, it's not profitable. Why is it so unreasonable to ANYONE that Anet would not continue to develop content that is not profitable? Why is that SO CRAZY to believe that?

    Which part of "this game was close to shutting down" was it you missed? Should I repeat myself?

    The reasons raid content, pvp and wvw were neglected can easily be explained without looking at revenue.

    The weakest last quarter end of last year too.

    Repeat yourself all you like ... it doesn't make what I said any less true. If you don't think revenues are what drives the decisions on what Anet offers for content, I really don't have much to say. Somehow you don't believe the main factor for a business to decide what product/services to offer isn't revenues? That's .... interesting I guess.

    I do think revenue drives a company.
    So yes, revenue dictates a business actions

    Great, so your confident revenue dictates business actions ... so it's NOT a crazy idea that raids dropped off the development schedule because of revenues ... so what are you in disagreement with me about again?

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.
    To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.
    Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

    Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

    Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

    The question then becomes:
    Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

    A. stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this content
    or
    B. stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

    The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

    Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

    I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

    To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:

    1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
    2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

    If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

    I can't follow this argument, and I doubt so do you.

    You should know better to assume I'm just spouting off without being able to explain myself. The concept here is not complicated. Anet can measure how much a person spends and how much time they send in game doing various things. Therefore, it's not hard to see how much revenue is generated per minute spent raiding vs other activities. If the revenue doesn't equal the cost to develop and maintain the content, it's not profitable. Why is it so unreasonable to ANYONE that Anet would not continue to develop content that is not profitable? Why is that SO CRAZY to believe that?

    Which part of "this game was close to shutting down" was it you missed? Should I repeat myself?

    The reasons raid content, pvp and wvw were neglected can easily be explained without looking at revenue.

    The weakest last quarter end of last year too.

    Repeat yourself all you like ... it doesn't make what I said any less true. If you don't think revenues are what drives the decisions on what Anet offers for content, I really don't have much to say. Somehow you don't believe the main factor for a business to decide what product/services to offer isn't revenues? That's .... interesting I guess.

    I do think revenue drives a company.
    So yes, revenue dictates a business actions

    Great, so your confident revenue dictates business actions ... so it's NOT a crazy idea that raids dropped off the development schedule because of revenues ... so what are you in disagreement with me about again?

    I already explained how the entire game suffered lack of content. Which also was a function of revenue. The company decided it was best to try for a different game until they had massive layoffs.

    I also know that raids were fine for 3-4 years up until the content drought. I also understand that there is an incredible focus on getting as many players into instanced content as possible currently, even as far as requiring instanced content for meta achievements, pretty much unprecidented but as you said: if the developers assume this will drive revenue, it must be good.

    I don't know how big the revenue contribution is of raid, pvp and wvw players (though given I always argued that more dedicated players are more willing to spend money, I would argue it's higher per player compared to average casual open world players). The only thing I do think I know is: this game will not survive on open world pve content alone (which also includes the necessity for an expansion down the road).

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.
    To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.
    Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

    Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

    Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

    The question then becomes:
    Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

    A. stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this content
    or
    B. stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

    The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

    Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

    I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

    To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:

    1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
    2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

    If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

    That is your worst argument yet. You are def slipping. Can't believe you still come to this thread.

    I can't believe that if this is my worst argument yet ... the best you can do is not present something that's an alternative.

    Actually, check that ... I can believe you have no counter argument ... par for the course. The truth is that content is linked to revenues. If you think Anet will continue to develop content that doesn't make them money, that's just another example of how you don't understand the business model .... for ANYTHING.

    Yes, lol cause it's the typically obtena argument. Both 1 and 2 are the exact same thing btw you just swap it around. We can't prove you and I can only guess. I can only add is I do everything but raid but bought 0 gems ever.

    Hey, it's a simple question here ... if raid content was making Anet a profit, why would they stop developing it? It's my worst argument yet? Great ... then you should have a REALLY good counter argument. You shouldn't even need to think too hard about it ... or are you just blowing smoke here?

    You must forget who you argued with prior.

    Nope, didn't forget ... still arguing with the same people that don't understand how business works and have a hard time understanding what they are reading.

    BTW, still waiting for that counter argument against the idea that a business will drop products and services if those products/services aren't profitable. Or an explanation that if raid content was making Anet a profit, why would they stop developing it? Either will do in this case.

    It gets canceled because 100 possible reasons better then the players who raided didn't buy gems

    GREAT!!!!! Then it shouldn't be hard for you to tell me even ONE of them right?

    And just to be clear, I didn't say raiders don't buy gems. Again, if you're going to have a go with me, the comprehension skills are going to have to go up a few notches.

    I already gave you reasons now you want me to give those many reasons again because you try and say stuff that could make sense but doesn't apply to here. How would anet make money off raids thru gems when they added almost nothing raid related to purchase? So again no that wasn't the reason. You make silly argument than swap it to what a business would do if a product wasn't making money but this is not a product that could make money. It's just varied content like Dungeons which make no money. PvP WvW etc. The only thing that makes them money are expansions and gem sales which are skins and qol or fun thingamagigs. Nothing to do with raids or any aspect being profitable because there aren't an equal amount of things. And I do bet with all the changes anet made around classes w nerfs to stat gear some raiders spent money on gems to trade 2 gold to buy gear to respecc to compete in raids but who cares. Still your worst argument yet

    WvW bandwagoners have small D's and never left their house even before Covid19

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    How would anet make money off raids thru gems when they added almost nothing raid related to purchase?

    EXACTLY ... THEY WOULDN'T

    That's why it's NOT UNREASONABLE to believe that raids are not being actively developed because of a lack of revenue from raiders.
    That's also why I suggested If Anet wants to encourage more raiders to spend money on the game to justify more raid development, they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders.

    Seriously ... is it too much to ask that you put more effort in comprehending my posts or should I just expect you to be combative over everything I post? The best part is that AGAIN ... your literally parroting my own points back to me ... but I'm wrong. Gotcha :trollface:

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    How would anet make money off raids thru gems when they added almost nothing raid related to purchase?

    EXACTLY ... THEY WOULDN'T

    That's why it's NOT UNREASONABLE to believe that raids are not being actively developed because of a lack of revenue from raiders.
    That's also why I suggested If Anet wants to encourage more raiders to spend money on the game to justify more raid development, they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders.

    That would also have a more negative impact.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    How would anet make money off raids thru gems when they added almost nothing raid related to purchase?

    EXACTLY ... THEY WOULDN'T

    That's why it's NOT UNREASONABLE to believe that raids are not being actively developed because of a lack of revenue from raiders.
    That's also why I suggested If Anet wants to encourage more raiders to spend money on the game to justify more raid development, they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders.

    That would also have a more negative impact.

    Awesome. So you think Anet offering QOL items in the GS for raiders would have a negative impact. I mean, OK, maybe, I guess? :confused:

    I don't know how that makes what I said about raids not being developed because of a lack of revenue from raiders unreasonable. Really, if what you say is true, it would support the idea i'm proposing that how raids are offered to players wasn't going to be sustainable content in the long term. Thanks.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.
    To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.
    Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

    Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

    Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

    The question then becomes:
    Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

    A. stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this content
    or
    B. stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

    The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

    Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

    I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

    To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:

    1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
    2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

    If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

    I can't follow this argument, and I doubt so do you.

    You should know better to assume I'm just spouting off without being able to explain myself. The concept here is not complicated. Anet can measure how much a person spends and how much time they send in game doing various things. Therefore, it's not hard to see how much revenue is generated per minute spent raiding vs other activities. If the revenue doesn't equal the cost to develop and maintain the content, it's not profitable. Why is it so unreasonable to ANYONE that Anet would not continue to develop content that is not profitable? Why is that SO CRAZY to believe that?

    Which part of "this game was close to shutting down" was it you missed? Should I repeat myself?

    The reasons raid content, pvp and wvw were neglected can easily be explained without looking at revenue.

    The weakest last quarter end of last year too.

    Repeat yourself all you like ... it doesn't make what I said any less true. If you don't think revenues are what drives the decisions on what Anet offers for content, I really don't have much to say. Somehow you don't believe the main factor for a business to decide what product/services to offer isn't revenues? That's .... interesting I guess.

    I do think revenue drives a company.
    So yes, revenue dictates a business actions

    Great, so your confident revenue dictates business actions ... so it's NOT a crazy idea that raids dropped off the development schedule because of revenues ... so what are you in disagreement with me about again?

    I already explained how the entire game suffered lack of content. Which also was a function of revenue. The company decided it was best to try for a different game until they had massive layoffs.

    Honestly, I don't see what you disagree with me about. If you believe revenue dictates business actions, why is it unreasonable to believe that doesn't apply to why raids aren't being developed regularly anymore? What makes raids exceptional to that?

    I also know that raids were fine for 3-4 years up until the content drought. I also understand that there is an incredible focus on getting as many players into instanced content as possible currently, even as far as requiring instanced content for meta achievements, pretty much unprecidented but as you said: if the developers assume this will drive revenue, it must be good.

    I don't know how big the revenue contribution is of raid, pvp and wvw players (though given I always argued that more dedicated players are more willing to spend money, I would argue it's higher per player compared to average casual open world players). The only thing I do think I know is: this game will not survive on open world pve content alone (which also includes the necessity for an expansion down the road).

    Neither do I ... but if you actually believe what you said about how revenues dictate business directions, why are raids so exceptional that they aren't being developed while everything else still is? You say there was a content drought for everything ... yet only raids aren't being developed right now. Why do you think that is if you DON'T think it could be that it has low revenues?

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    How would anet make money off raids thru gems when they added almost nothing raid related to purchase?

    EXACTLY ... THEY WOULDN'T

    That's why it's NOT UNREASONABLE to believe that raids are not being actively developed because of a lack of revenue from raiders.
    That's also why I suggested If Anet wants to encourage more raiders to spend money on the game to justify more raid development, they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders.

    That would also have a more negative impact.

    Awesome. So you think Anet offering QOL items in the GS for raiders would have a negative impact. I mean, OK, maybe, I guess? :confused:

    I don't know how that makes what I said about raids not being developed because of a lack of revenue from raiders unreasonable. Really, if what you say is true, it would support the idea i'm proposing that how raids are offered to players wasn't going to be sustainable content in the long term. Thanks.

    If I suddenly needed QoL stuff from the gem store to do raids I would stop doing them. I'm certain the same can be said for others.

    And in regards to sustainability of raids I think you're right about it not being sustainable for long term, just not for the right reasons. It's not financially, I can tell you that much, it's pretty evident that it's actually more about how management is handled in ANET, literally something is always going on at ANET that doesn't seem right, new raids aren't pushed out constantly and stuff but that's more of a management issue. Seriously when the designer of Dhumm and Samarog are leaving the company, that's a sign.

    Also people get bored. Even in WoW where a season is supposed to last like almost a third of a year to a half of one, you have the same kind of draught. And now that Mike O Brien is out of the picture and people hungry about how gender neutral everything has to be I'm sure things are going to get better...

    I mean just look at WvW we've had the empty promise of Alliances sitting around with seemingly no action for about 3 years now. And it took years for one and I meaningfully significant update to WvW despite our constant protests and feedback on what was and is wrong with it. And even for that they removed the thread they had pinned about it so that dream is now pretty much dead.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @psyt.9415 said:
    Disagree. You have a personal perception that GW2 is harder than other mmos which I disagree with. They are all difficult in thier own way. The ability to tune the raids to be more accessible is only limited by that perception. They can remove difficult mechanics or moves from certain bosses if they want, they can even remove certain wings if they want. They can add a stat bolster buff. they can add raid wide buffs that compensate for the lack of certain classes making them unnecessary. Theres lots of things they could do to allow a casual tuned raid to work and this is just 5 minutes of thought on the subject. But then again this is the same team that said dx12 would do nothing for the game and I get close to 30 more fps with the pxy. So im not surprised if they write things off before even trying it.

    Aside from all the reasons @Astralporing.1957 pointed out, there is one more, Raid wings in this game are badly designed because bosses inside one wing require different party compositions. A composition that works on Cairn, won't work on Deimos. This means a group formed for one boss, won't be ready for the next one, players would need to swap characters anyway, making the whole process of automatic group finding tedious.

    Yes, they could make Raids work with any group composition, they could turn all raid bosses in loot pinatas like the choya pinata in Amnoon so anyone can press 1 on their keyboard and win. Everything is possible, but auto grouping won't work very well. In Strike Missions there is a public version, but it doesn't work on the harder bosses.

    I dont believe thats as big of an issue to worth considering. Wow has had such encounters within the same raids for years and at an even harder lvl, for gw2 to do it is all the easier because gw2 is exceptionally alt friendly.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    It's kinda weird how people are insisting "open raids for casuals" when they are already open. Anyone is free to LFG for training runs or "all welcome" runs. However, the thing that people seem to fail to understand, is that raids in GW2 are most of all a test of co-operation and performing mechs properly TOGETHER and the failure usually punishes the group. Meanwhile, the casual players (which makes most of GW2 playerbase) hardly ever do any content together in an organized manner as most raid bosses are most of all about doing things right as squad. For ex. even Tequatl is mostly peoples moving as big blobs between 4 objectives, DS meta as well and in those kinds of content, the player doesn't really need to co-operate at all (as shown by those 5 extra guys at every DS tower boss) despite doing it in group. And since pretty much no open-world content teaches co-operation (Triple Trouble and Shatterer as rare exceptions), going straight to raids without visiting fractals first can be a rough wake-up as a casual player who's never played in a group in organized manner easily ends up wiping the group.
    To make matters worse, like already mentioned 50 times in this thread alone, open-world doesn't give ANY indication what kind of damage, boons or heals you're doing and thus it's quite usual to see new peoples of any of those roles doing less than 25% of what average person in that content do if they come in blind without any knowledge about how builds work and due to damage auras, healer sleeping on num 1 easily wipes the squad. Due to enrages, group of totally improperly built dpsers also are very unlikely to succeed even though proper dps build could spam 1 all day and out-dps random mismatch build by 2-4x.
    Raids are the difficult PVE content, as well as T4 fractals. Below those, for people looking for challenge but not ready for raids, are lower-tier fractals, Strike missions and, surprise, bounties. If people were that interested in challenging content, why even those aren't more popular than the deadzone they currently are? Is it because rewards aren't worth it? Or are they too scary for casual players, too? If it's the first one, people are actually asking for easier rewards when they're asking for easier raids. If it's the latter, people could start running those first before getting into raids and if those are too scary, the player isn't up for the (co-operative) challenge known as raids.

    Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing. Never mind the elitist players that ruins the experience for fellow raiders and new players. A behaviour driven through perceived nessassity, wipes cost time.

    Every other aaa mmorpg learned this a decade ago. They recognised casuals do love group content, this is why theu all dev eloped a lower tuned version of the existing raids to provide raid content to the majority of the player base.

    The question then becomes:
    Is it worth to implement content, and worse: spend resources on it, which is not desired in the way it is conceptualized. Adding raids costs resources. Making raids scale to multiple difficulties takes even more resources. In the end, it might be best to either:

    A. stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this content
    or
    B. stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

    The reason why many players who raid, myself included, have been against easy mode raids for years is exactly what has transpired now: resource allocation for instanced content gets split so far that no new raid content gets developed (or fractals for that matter), while the effect to actually get new players interested is minimal. As you said: most just want their easy breeze through content.

    Sure, if the instanced content team gets doubled in size as to produce twice as much content, let's do so, but that would come at the expense of other content which is dominantly story and open world content and that's a big no no.

    I have to disagree with your comment on other MMORPGs. Players of all calibers love loot, that's the universal truth here. Casual players as you describe them, since there is skilled casual players too, are interested in loot primarily, not the actual content or clearing of the content. This is rather evident in the semi afk nature and absolute disconnection with game mechanics which takes place in these game modes (see latest results for the N'Zoth fight in WoW LFR). All other MMORPGs have gear thread-mills which are spinning non stop. This is akin to GW2s open world easy content. There is no need for instanced easy content only to check off a box as:"yes, we have that too."

    To be fair ... IF raids were profitable for Anet, then even if they served a fraction of the population (whatever that may be), I imagine they would still be on a regular release schedule. The fact they aren't makes me think the following:

    1. Generally, people that mainly raid don't spend on gems
    2. People that do spend on gems are spending very little time doing raids.

    If Anet wants to encourage raids, maybe they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders instead of attaching strike mission achieves to OW metas.

    I can't follow this argument, and I doubt so do you.

    You should know better to assume I'm just spouting off without being able to explain myself. The concept here is not complicated. Anet can measure how much a person spends and how much time they send in game doing various things. Therefore, it's not hard to see how much revenue is generated per minute spent raiding vs other activities. If the revenue doesn't equal the cost to develop and maintain the content, it's not profitable. Why is it so unreasonable to ANYONE that Anet would not continue to develop content that is not profitable? Why is that SO CRAZY to believe that?

    Which part of "this game was close to shutting down" was it you missed? Should I repeat myself?

    The reasons raid content, pvp and wvw were neglected can easily be explained without looking at revenue.

    The weakest last quarter end of last year too.

    Repeat yourself all you like ... it doesn't make what I said any less true. If you don't think revenues are what drives the decisions on what Anet offers for content, I really don't have much to say. Somehow you don't believe the main factor for a business to decide what product/services to offer isn't revenues? That's .... interesting I guess.

    I do think revenue drives a company.
    So yes, revenue dictates a business actions

    Great, so your confident revenue dictates business actions ... so it's NOT a crazy idea that raids dropped off the development schedule because of revenues ... so what are you in disagreement with me about again?

    I already explained how the entire game suffered lack of content. Which also was a function of revenue. The company decided it was best to try for a different game until they had massive layoffs.

    Honestly, I don't see what you disagree with me about. If you believe revenue dictates business actions, why is it unreasonable to believe that doesn't apply to why raids aren't being developed regularly anymore? What makes raids exceptional to that?

    Nothing makes raids exceptional. I disagree with the reason for raids seeing no continued support, or rather the lack of revenue from players playing them, laying solely in raids being unpopular:

    • the main driving factor is player population, which fell for all content. Obviously niche content will be hit the hardest
    • many game modes saw a lack of attention based on a business decision which was changed: aka discontinuation of the game.

    It's not that I am not looking at revenue from content which is an issue, it's that you are cherry picking what you want to look at under the guise of revenue maximization as goal.

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I also know that raids were fine for 3-4 years up until the content drought. I also understand that there is an incredible focus on getting as many players into instanced content as possible currently, even as far as requiring instanced content for meta achievements, pretty much unprecidented but as you said: if the developers assume this will drive revenue, it must be good.

    I don't know how big the revenue contribution is of raid, pvp and wvw players (though given I always argued that more dedicated players are more willing to spend money, I would argue it's higher per player compared to average casual open world players). The only thing I do think I know is: this game will not survive on open world pve content alone (which also includes the necessity for an expansion down the road).

    Neither do I ... but if you actually believe what you said about how revenues dictate business directions, why are raids so exceptional that they aren't being developed while everything else still is? You say there was a content drought for everything ... yet only raids aren't being developed right now. Why do you think that is if you DON'T think it could be that it has low revenues?

    This is where we fundamentally disagree. I do not believe raids or rather the development for instanced content has seen a stop in development. On the contrary, I see more of it.

    The main difference is, as a result of past business decisions, a new approach was necessary: strikes.

    Which brings us full circle to what you commented on:
    If strikes are not feasible as suggested by vesica tempestas.1563:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    Casual. Players are not interested in raids that are relatively highly tuned and never will be because they are not interested in the pattern Learning required, and being forced into builds they are not interested in playing.

    If the approach with strikes is not successful or even doomed to fail from the start, because the main issue was never the lack of "entry mode raids", it might have been or might be a prudent business decision to target only a niche group with this contents resources, or not provide it at all.

    Which also solves the issues like requiring strike achievements for open world masteries.

    The main issue is: you keep willfully ignoring things like the fact that obviously challenging instanced content is still desired, or at least is again desired (see fractals, which too have not seen a fair share of content developed) if current resource allocation is to be believed. The fact that this content is not called raids, but falls into a similar design, is not an argument that content was discontinued.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    How would anet make money off raids thru gems when they added almost nothing raid related to purchase?

    EXACTLY ... THEY WOULDN'T

    That's why it's NOT UNREASONABLE to believe that raids are not being actively developed because of a lack of revenue from raiders.
    That's also why I suggested If Anet wants to encourage more raiders to spend money on the game to justify more raid development, they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders.

    That would also have a more negative impact.

    Awesome. So you think Anet offering QOL items in the GS for raiders would have a negative impact. I mean, OK, maybe, I guess? :confused:

    I don't know how that makes what I said about raids not being developed because of a lack of revenue from raiders unreasonable. Really, if what you say is true, it would support the idea i'm proposing that how raids are offered to players wasn't going to be sustainable content in the long term. Thanks.

    Does anet sell lw qol in the gemstore?

  • No one has noticed that this thread answers the question about why few players raid.

    The Commander will end you.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:
    No one has noticed that this thread answers the question about why few players raid.

    An astute observation, care to elaborate?

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    How would anet make money off raids thru gems when they added almost nothing raid related to purchase?

    EXACTLY ... THEY WOULDN'T

    That's why it's NOT UNREASONABLE to believe that raids are not being actively developed because of a lack of revenue from raiders.
    That's also why I suggested If Anet wants to encourage more raiders to spend money on the game to justify more raid development, they need to consider some GS items that improve the QOL for raiders.

    Seriously ... is it too much to ask that you put more effort in comprehending my posts or should I just expect you to be combative over everything I post? The best part is that AGAIN ... your literally parroting my own points back to me ... but I'm wrong. Gotcha :trollface:

    Ok, obtena there are no such things unless you go Ptw route and add items that buff you. You are def wrong this time. Before I said we both could be wrong because opinions but your worst argument yet is just plain wrong. Glad to see you still up to your trick of taking 1 sentence from a paragraph and acting like I got you when it changes the meaning of what someone said when it's stand alone. I'll do it next post. We all comprehend your points but this is your life arguing and extending threads and acting like people can't understand that you are always right. Maybe you will post something that make sense and I won't be combative. I look forward to that day.

    WvW bandwagoners have small D's and never left their house even before Covid19

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    How would anet make money off raids thru gems when they added almost nothing raid related to purchase?

    but I'm wrong.

    Wow, you admitted you are wrong. We all thank you for finally coming to that realization. It has been a long journey but it's ok to admit defeat. I look forward to our next discussion

    WvW bandwagoners have small D's and never left their house even before Covid19

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    It's not that I am not looking at revenue from content which is an issue, it's that you are cherry picking what you want to look at under the guise of revenue maximization as goal.

    Of course I am, because that's the primary goal of a business. There isn't any 'guise' that revenue maximization is Anet's goal and that they are going to make business decisions based on that. When I suggest raids have a diminished development schedule because they don't have the revenue, it's not a ridiculous notion that some people would believe. It's likely VERY close to the truth. Are there other factors? Maybe. I didn't say there wasn't ... I simply believe revenue is the top one.

    This is where we fundamentally disagree. I do not believe raids or rather the development for instanced content has seen a stop in development. On the contrary, I see more of it.

    You see more raids being developed and released now than before? I don't think that's true is it? The raid release schedule is pretty well documented. To be clear, we are talking specifically about raids, not all instanced content. At least I am.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    It's not that I am not looking at revenue from content which is an issue, it's that you are cherry picking what you want to look at under the guise of revenue maximization as goal.

    Of course I am, because that's the primary goal of a business. There isn't any 'guise' that revenue maximization is Anet's goal and that they are going to make business decisions based on that. When I suggest raids have a diminished development schedule because they don't have the revenue, it's not a ridiculous notion that some people would believe. It's likely VERY close to the truth. Are there other factors? Maybe. I didn't say there wasn't ... I simply believe revenue is the top one.

    It is a ridiculous notion because you make no differentiation as to when or why raids saw less development.

    I also disagreed with the revenue assumption, and I clearly explained this with pointing to the fact that the game overall might not have seen continued development.
    Obviously development goals changed, and that might not have been solely due to revenue or raids, but game wide.

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    This is where we fundamentally disagree. I do not believe raids or rather the development for instanced content has seen a stop in development. On the contrary, I see more of it.

    You see more raids being developed and released now than before? I don't think that's true is it? The raid release schedule is pretty well documented. To be clear, we are talking specifically about raids, not all instanced content. At least I am.

    You really need to read full sentences:
    I do not believe raids or rather the development for instanced content has seen a stop in development.

    and by willfully omitting everything which does not serve your argument, you are being negligent at best, and plain incorrect at worst.

    Strikes are close enough to raids that one can argue that they are very similar if not almost the same from a resource consumption perspective.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    It's not that I am not looking at revenue from content which is an issue, it's that you are cherry picking what you want to look at under the guise of revenue maximization as goal.

    Of course I am, because that's the primary goal of a business. There isn't any 'guise' that revenue maximization is Anet's goal and that they are going to make business decisions based on that. When I suggest raids have a diminished development schedule because they don't have the revenue, it's not a ridiculous notion that some people would believe. It's likely VERY close to the truth. Are there other factors? Maybe. I didn't say there wasn't ... I simply believe revenue is the top one.

    It is a ridiculous notion because you make no differentiation as to when or why raids saw less development.

    Sure I did ... the when is whenever Anet made the decision to reduce their development. Do i have a calendar date for you? No ... but it happened at some point. The why is because of reduced revenues. There is NOTHING ridiculous about the idea a company decides to cut a product/service because of failing to being profitable. It's a common reason; I dare even propose it's the main reason.

    I really don't know what your other beef is. You don't believe raid development is stopped. OK ... but make no mistake that there is definitely a reduction in the release of raid content in the way it has been traditionally offered in this game. I don't think that's how raiders OR OW players want raid content delivered to them, so it's even WORSE. I guess that's another thread though.You feel strike missions fall under the umbrella of raid content? That's fair to say. If strike missions are the 'new raids', then that is just shows how raids were offered when released were never sustainable content to begin with ... my whole point.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    It's not that I am not looking at revenue from content which is an issue, it's that you are cherry picking what you want to look at under the guise of revenue maximization as goal.

    Of course I am, because that's the primary goal of a business. There isn't any 'guise' that revenue maximization is Anet's goal and that they are going to make business decisions based on that. When I suggest raids have a diminished development schedule because they don't have the revenue, it's not a ridiculous notion that some people would believe. It's likely VERY close to the truth. Are there other factors? Maybe. I didn't say there wasn't ... I simply believe revenue is the top one.

    It is a ridiculous notion because you make no differentiation as to when or why raids saw less development.

    Sure I did ... the when is whenever Anet made the decision to reduce their development. Do i have a calendar date for you? No ... but it happened at some point. The why is because of reduced revenues. There is NOTHING ridiculous about the idea a company decides to cut a product/service because of failing to being profitable. It's a common reason; I dare even propose it's the main reason.

    So, given how the developers were about to shelve the game, then did a 180 on that approach. You see no possibility that them reducing resources towards raids could have been a similar decision (and timeline wise it falls into the same time frame while other resource reduction towards GW2 were decided)? Which was a contributing factor to the content losing its player base.

    The now in place nearly forcing and way higher implementation of instanced challenging content, in form of strikes, is not potentially an attempt to remedy past mistakes?

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I really don't know what your other beef is. You don't believe raid development is stopped. OK ... but make no mistake that there is definitely a reduction in the release of raid content You feel strike missions fall under the umbrella of raid content? That's fair to say. I don't think that's how raiders OR OW players want raid content delivered to them, so it's even WORSE. I guess that's another thread though.

    Which is what I was eluding to when stating:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    A. stick to a low amount of resources and just target a niche group with this content
    or
    B. stop this content development completely (and while this would certainly hit players interested in challenging group content, if there are not enough or the resource cost is to high, there is no point in this life line approach)

    But as you said: it doesn't matter what players want. What the developers implement is without question in the best interest of their revenue and they make no mistakes. For me, I can live with strike missions and the release cadence they are seeing (5 within the last 5 months, far more than any raid content but on a smaller scale, so it is easy to assume they have a about as much developer attention as raids did during their prime).

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    It's not that I am not looking at revenue from content which is an issue, it's that you are cherry picking what you want to look at under the guise of revenue maximization as goal.

    Of course I am, because that's the primary goal of a business. There isn't any 'guise' that revenue maximization is Anet's goal and that they are going to make business decisions based on that. When I suggest raids have a diminished development schedule because they don't have the revenue, it's not a ridiculous notion that some people would believe. It's likely VERY close to the truth. Are there other factors? Maybe. I didn't say there wasn't ... I simply believe revenue is the top one.

    It is a ridiculous notion because you make no differentiation as to when or why raids saw less development.

    Sure I did ... the when is whenever Anet made the decision to reduce their development. Do i have a calendar date for you? No ... but it happened at some point. The why is because of reduced revenues. There is NOTHING ridiculous about the idea a company decides to cut a product/service because of failing to being profitable. It's a common reason; I dare even propose it's the main reason.

    So, given how the developers were about to shelve the game, then did a 180 on that approach. You see no possibility that them reducing resources towards raids could have been a similar decision? Which was a contributing factor to the content losing its player base.

    Of course I do ... but because of low revenues. Anet had to choose what content they were going to reduce resources on ... how do you think they decided that? Do you think Anet would have reduced resources towards raids if it was the main revenue earner? OFC not.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    It's not that I am not looking at revenue from content which is an issue, it's that you are cherry picking what you want to look at under the guise of revenue maximization as goal.

    Of course I am, because that's the primary goal of a business. There isn't any 'guise' that revenue maximization is Anet's goal and that they are going to make business decisions based on that. When I suggest raids have a diminished development schedule because they don't have the revenue, it's not a ridiculous notion that some people would believe. It's likely VERY close to the truth. Are there other factors? Maybe. I didn't say there wasn't ... I simply believe revenue is the top one.

    It is a ridiculous notion because you make no differentiation as to when or why raids saw less development.

    Sure I did ... the when is whenever Anet made the decision to reduce their development. Do i have a calendar date for you? No ... but it happened at some point. The why is because of reduced revenues. There is NOTHING ridiculous about the idea a company decides to cut a product/service because of failing to being profitable. It's a common reason; I dare even propose it's the main reason.

    So, given how the developers were about to shelve the game, then did a 180 on that approach. You see no possibility that them reducing resources towards raids could have been a similar decision? Which was a contributing factor to the content losing its player base.

    Of course I do ... but because of low revenues. DO you think Anet woudl have reduced resources towards raids if it was the main revenue earner? OFC not.

    I think Anet reduced resource towards the entire game. I think they went back on that approach. I think some game modes were affected more drastically than others. I think recent actions suggest a try to fix this problem for those game modes.

    So in short: making any claims as to resource allocation based on revenue in this situation for that time frame WITHOUT any actual numbers is not feasible without an agenda.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    It's not that I am not looking at revenue from content which is an issue, it's that you are cherry picking what you want to look at under the guise of revenue maximization as goal.

    Of course I am, because that's the primary goal of a business. There isn't any 'guise' that revenue maximization is Anet's goal and that they are going to make business decisions based on that. When I suggest raids have a diminished development schedule because they don't have the revenue, it's not a ridiculous notion that some people would believe. It's likely VERY close to the truth. Are there other factors? Maybe. I didn't say there wasn't ... I simply believe revenue is the top one.

    It is a ridiculous notion because you make no differentiation as to when or why raids saw less development.

    Sure I did ... the when is whenever Anet made the decision to reduce their development. Do i have a calendar date for you? No ... but it happened at some point. The why is because of reduced revenues. There is NOTHING ridiculous about the idea a company decides to cut a product/service because of failing to being profitable. It's a common reason; I dare even propose it's the main reason.

    So, given how the developers were about to shelve the game, then did a 180 on that approach. You see no possibility that them reducing resources towards raids could have been a similar decision? Which was a contributing factor to the content losing its player base.

    Of course I do ... but because of low revenues. DO you think Anet woudl have reduced resources towards raids if it was the main revenue earner? OFC not.

    I think Anet reduced resource towards the entire game. I think they went back on that approach. I think some game modes were affected more drastically than others. I think recent actions suggest a try to fix this problem for those game modes.

    Hey, I don't disagree with that. The idea that Anet reduced the raid release schedule somewhere between 'very long' to 'infinite' because of reduced revenues doesn't conflict with any of that. Like I said ... it wouldn't be unreasonable for them to make 'resource reduction' decisions based on the services they offer that make money vs. those that don't.

    I get you think there is just a 'transfer' from raids to strike missions. If that's the case, it just supports my view that as originally offered, raids were not sustainable content to original adopters. And I believe that if there was a transfer, it was STILL a revenue-based decision.

    So in short: making any claims as to resource allocation based on revenue in this situation for that time frame WITHOUT any actual numbers is not feasible without an agenda.

    /shrug ... so is any other claim someone will make. This thread is purely speculative exercise. That's already been solidified in another post about 3 pages ago.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Excursion.9752Excursion.9752 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't know why EVERYONE doesn't raid but I can tell you why I didn't raid up until recently.

    1)Time investment - I didn't have a clue how long it would take to do what ever was required to be able to raid. I made my own preconceived notions that I came to find out were wrong. If people are willing to explain and have patience it can come along quickly.

    2)No One To Raid With - To me it felt like invite only club and you were only invited to a group if someone either knew you or thought that you would be a good addition to their team. Backwards logic because how was one to know you were good in those situations if they never saw you in them?

    3)Fear of Toxicity - Since I was new and I knew that I was going to struggle at the start, I was a little intimidated at the thought of people calling me out for bad play.

    A friend of mine asked if I would like to raid and I took him up on the offer. I now have been raiding for the past 3 weeks and I'm doing really well. 38 LI!

    So I really think the bottom line is the fear of the unknown. You can watch as many raid videos as you want but there is no substitute for the real thing. Even though I have completed close to 5 total wings now I still don't feel comfortable joining random groups because I "think" every group has these crazy high expectations for people playing with them. I know this is not always the case. Self doubt is a Kitten!

                                                              There is a 50% chance you will not agree with me and a 50% chance I will not agree with you
    
  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

    @Excursion.9752 said:
    I don't know why EVERYONE doesn't raid but I can tell you why I didn't raid up until recently.

    1)Time investment - I didn't have a clue how long it would take to do what ever was required to be able to raid. I made my own preconceived notions that I came to find out were wrong. If people are willing to explain and have patience it can come along quickly.

    2)No One To Raid With - To me it felt like invite only club and you were only invited to a group if someone either knew you or thought that you would be a good addition to their team. Backwards logic because how was one to know you were good in those situations if they never saw you in them?

    3)Fear of Toxicity - Since I was new and I knew that I was going to struggle at the start, I was a little intimidated at the thought of people calling me out for bad play.

    A friend of mine asked if I would like to raid and I took him up on the offer. I now have been raiding for the past 3 weeks and I'm doing really well. 38 LI!

    So I really think the bottom line is the fear of the unknown. You can watch as many raid videos as you want but there is no substitute for the real thing. Even though I have completed close to 5 total wings now I still don't feel comfortable joining random groups because I "think" every group has these crazy high expectations for people playing with them. I know this is not always the case. Self doubt is a Kitten!

    Positive mental attitude!

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    2- The way your professions were designed... https://massivelyop.com/2019/03/28/massively-overthinking-thoughts-on-the-holy-trinity-in-mmos/

    “Brianna Royce (@nbrianna, blog): Fun fact: I still remember when “holy trinity” meant tank, healer, and mezzer – the DPS players were a given, the warm bodies that filled out the rest of the group, and not part of the trinity back in the early pre-WoW days of MMO group content. The fact that this shifted over time really says all you need to know about how MMO class and combat design have changed, and not necessarily for the better.

    Don’t mistake me; I no longer believe we need or must respect a trinity of either type. But what I truly resent is the loss of class variation and combat flow that naturally accompanied the demise of the classic trinity, specifically the fact that crowd control, buffing, and debuffing classes have all but disappeared in the modern rush to make nearly everyone a damage-dealer, even the healers and tanks.

    Ironically, making everyone a damage-dealer actually lends itself more towards better designed content requiring a trinity. So long as it's done right (As opposed to FFXIV style "Make Tanks and Healers have to barely Tank or Heal")

    If everyone is a damage dealer, then you can focus your content towards having a better distribution of Tank/Healer/Support especially in smaller group sizes, since you don't have to worry about fitting in X amount of DPS classes into each group.

    An example, would be the industry standard "Dungeon" group is 1 Tank, 1 Healer and 3 DPS. This means that 1) There's inherently a disparity between required roles. 2) Requirements for 2 of the roles are shouldered entirely by a single person. 3) You have a separation of DPS from other roles, while Damage is the only infinitely scaling variable for encounters (I.e. Healing more, just leads to more overhealing. Tanking more, just leads to less healing required. While damaging more will always make fights go faster).
    This of course also gets worse as you enter into "Raid" groups which are often 2 Tanks, 2-4 Healers and X DPS (Depending on format, often they use multiples of regular party sizes, so 10, 15, 20 or 25 players meaning 6-19 DPS) which often highlights how poorly Tanking is designed in the game as there's usually a period of time where the 2nd Tank feels redundant (Also, sometimes actually replaced by another DPS) since the games entire combat system has been designed with the 1 Tank mentality for the majority of it which doesn't often translate well into then forcing multi-tank encounters (Typically using "Debuff that means you can't MT for X seconds" type mechanics that force swapping tanks or "This big attack hits number 1 AND 2 on threat" that simply requires 2 tanks to exist in the encounter)

    In a setting where "Everyone is a damage dealer", you could instead find a standard 5 man Dungeon party of 1-2 Tanks, 1-2 Healers and 1-2 Support. Thereby allowing you to make content that can be more taxing on these roles as each one can find themselves with a partner to back them up. Heck, given the fact that all 3 of these roles happen to work towards the same goal of mitigating incoming damage, well designed content could find themselves in a situation where any number of these roles can accomplish said content. A party of 5 Tanks could absorb all the damage, a party of 5 Healers could heal all the damage or a party of 5 Supporters could lock down all the enemies (Provided you actually let players CC bosses and not enforce blanket immunities... One of the cool things about CoX was that it did allow for people to chain CC Arch Villains, to a point where a Controller/Dominator could solo an Arch Villain by perma-CC'ing them provided they had good enough mods to provide enough CC as well as damage to overcome natural regen).
    Of course, larger scale content becomes harder to design, since you then have to consider how to limit CC so as to not nullify the content with a handful of Supports. I.e. In the case of the CoX example where a Controller/Dominator can perma-CC an Arch Villain, such a character can single handedly nullify the need for a Tank or Healer in any content meaning that everyone else is there to act as a pure DPS (Though, I guess with everyone designed to be a damage dealer, it wouldn't necessarily mean they would be bored, as opposed to redundant Tanks/Healers in Tank/Healer/DPS trinity games. Also, this particular example wasn't unique in CoX, since Scrappers, Brutes and Masterminds could all easily solo Arch Villains by maxing out their defense/resistances too)

    This potential all goes to waste once you start making specific "DPS" roles required to output the majority of the damage (Since, even if content is technically possible to still be accomplished with 5 Tanks or 5 Healers, people will err to the path of least resistance, which would be the much faster clears by having as many dedicated damage dealers as possible). Even more so when players start to look at gear and stats and there are stand alone options that maximize damage output designed for the DPS classes (As opposed to a scenario with only Tanks/Healers/Support where all 3 roles will need to focus on their role stats to perform), since then you get situations where everyone starts trying to forgo their role in order to stack up on damage (Since again, the only infinitely scaling variable is damage output)

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 21, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    It's not that I am not looking at revenue from content which is an issue, it's that you are cherry picking what you want to look at under the guise of revenue maximization as goal.

    Of course I am, because that's the primary goal of a business. There isn't any 'guise' that revenue maximization is Anet's goal and that they are going to make business decisions based on that. When I suggest raids have a diminished development schedule because they don't have the revenue, it's not a ridiculous notion that some people would believe. It's likely VERY close to the truth. Are there other factors? Maybe. I didn't say there wasn't ... I simply believe revenue is the top one.

    It is a ridiculous notion because you make no differentiation as to when or why raids saw less development.

    Sure I did ... the when is whenever Anet made the decision to reduce their development. Do i have a calendar date for you? No ... but it happened at some point. The why is because of reduced revenues. There is NOTHING ridiculous about the idea a company decides to cut a product/service because of failing to being profitable. It's a common reason; I dare even propose it's the main reason.

    So, given how the developers were about to shelve the game, then did a 180 on that approach. You see no possibility that them reducing resources towards raids could have been a similar decision? Which was a contributing factor to the content losing its player base.

    Of course I do ... but because of low revenues. DO you think Anet woudl have reduced resources towards raids if it was the main revenue earner? OFC not.

    I think Anet reduced resource towards the entire game. I think they went back on that approach. I think some game modes were affected more drastically than others. I think recent actions suggest a try to fix this problem for those game modes.

    Hey, I don't disagree with that. The idea that Anet reduced the raid release schedule somewhere between 'very long' to 'infinite' because of reduced revenues doesn't conflict with any of that. Like I said ... it wouldn't be unreasonable for them to make 'resource reduction' decisions based on the services they offer that make money vs. those that don't.

    I get you think there is just a 'transfer' from raids to strike missions. If that's the case, it just supports my view that as originally offered, raids were not sustainable content to original adopters. And I believe that if there was a transfer, it was STILL a revenue-based decision.

    So in short: making any claims as to resource allocation based on revenue in this situation for that time frame WITHOUT any actual numbers is not feasible without an agenda.

    /shrug ... so is any other claim someone will make. This thread is purely speculative exercise. That's already been solidified in another post about 3 pages ago.

    You sound like someone determined to ruin the game for profits. The last game that did that was WoW and people really threatened to leave over stupid stuff like flying which in that game is not important at all.

    Also strikes may be claimed to be as a transition agent for raids but that doesn't mean you have to do them to get into raiding. The only thing you need realistically is a high demand build and a positive attitude.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    It's not that I am not looking at revenue from content which is an issue, it's that you are cherry picking what you want to look at under the guise of revenue maximization as goal.

    Of course I am, because that's the primary goal of a business. There isn't any 'guise' that revenue maximization is Anet's goal and that they are going to make business decisions based on that. When I suggest raids have a diminished development schedule because they don't have the revenue, it's not a ridiculous notion that some people would believe. It's likely VERY close to the truth. Are there other factors? Maybe. I didn't say there wasn't ... I simply believe revenue is the top one.

    It is a ridiculous notion because you make no differentiation as to when or why raids saw less development.

    Sure I did ... the when is whenever Anet made the decision to reduce their development. Do i have a calendar date for you? No ... but it happened at some point. The why is because of reduced revenues. There is NOTHING ridiculous about the idea a company decides to cut a product/service because of failing to being profitable. It's a common reason; I dare even propose it's the main reason.

    So, given how the developers were about to shelve the game, then did a 180 on that approach. You see no possibility that them reducing resources towards raids could have been a similar decision? Which was a contributing factor to the content losing its player base.

    Of course I do ... but because of low revenues. DO you think Anet woudl have reduced resources towards raids if it was the main revenue earner? OFC not.

    I think Anet reduced resource towards the entire game. I think they went back on that approach. I think some game modes were affected more drastically than others. I think recent actions suggest a try to fix this problem for those game modes.

    Hey, I don't disagree with that. The idea that Anet reduced the raid release schedule somewhere between 'very long' to 'infinite' because of reduced revenues doesn't conflict with any of that. Like I said ... it wouldn't be unreasonable for them to make 'resource reduction' decisions based on the services they offer that make money vs. those that don't.

    I get you think there is just a 'transfer' from raids to strike missions. If that's the case, it just supports my view that as originally offered, raids were not sustainable content to original adopters. And I believe that if there was a transfer, it was STILL a revenue-based decision.

    So in short: making any claims as to resource allocation based on revenue in this situation for that time frame WITHOUT any actual numbers is not feasible without an agenda.

    /shrug ... so is any other claim someone will make. This thread is purely speculative exercise. That's already been solidified in another post about 3 pages ago.

    You sound like someone determined to ruin the game for profits.

    You sound like someone fishing to have an argument. I've made my points. Feel free to address them.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 21, 2020

    I'd like to see that post where the developers stated that they stopped Raid development due to revenue because I can't find any.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 21, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    It's not that I am not looking at revenue from content which is an issue, it's that you are cherry picking what you want to look at under the guise of revenue maximization as goal.

    Of course I am, because that's the primary goal of a business. There isn't any 'guise' that revenue maximization is Anet's goal and that they are going to make business decisions based on that. When I suggest raids have a diminished development schedule because they don't have the revenue, it's not a ridiculous notion that some people would believe. It's likely VERY close to the truth. Are there other factors? Maybe. I didn't say there wasn't ... I simply believe revenue is the top one.

    It is a ridiculous notion because you make no differentiation as to when or why raids saw less development.

    Sure I did ... the when is whenever Anet made the decision to reduce their development. Do i have a calendar date for you? No ... but it happened at some point. The why is because of reduced revenues. There is NOTHING ridiculous about the idea a company decides to cut a product/service because of failing to being profitable. It's a common reason; I dare even propose it's the main reason.

    So, given how the developers were about to shelve the game, then did a 180 on that approach. You see no possibility that them reducing resources towards raids could have been a similar decision? Which was a contributing factor to the content losing its player base.

    Of course I do ... but because of low revenues. DO you think Anet woudl have reduced resources towards raids if it was the main revenue earner? OFC not.

    I think Anet reduced resource towards the entire game. I think they went back on that approach. I think some game modes were affected more drastically than others. I think recent actions suggest a try to fix this problem for those game modes.

    Hey, I don't disagree with that. The idea that Anet reduced the raid release schedule somewhere between 'very long' to 'infinite' because of reduced revenues doesn't conflict with any of that. Like I said ... it wouldn't be unreasonable for them to make 'resource reduction' decisions based on the services they offer that make money vs. those that don't.

    I get you think there is just a 'transfer' from raids to strike missions. If that's the case, it just supports my view that as originally offered, raids were not sustainable content to original adopters. And I believe that if there was a transfer, it was STILL a revenue-based decision.

    So in short: making any claims as to resource allocation based on revenue in this situation for that time frame WITHOUT any actual numbers is not feasible without an agenda.

    /shrug ... so is any other claim someone will make. This thread is purely speculative exercise. That's already been solidified in another post about 3 pages ago.

    You sound like someone determined to ruin the game for profits.

    You sound like someone fishing to have an argument. I've made my points. Feel free to address them.

    I'm going to ignore that you just said I'm looking for an argument. From a business perspective being greedy and hostile to your audience for money is exactly what led to the downfall of many businesses and products. KFC did it to Colonel Sanders to reduce the cost of his original chicken formula, and now they use his face and belittle his memory as their trademark, now Popeyes dominates over fried chicken fast food, than KFC does. In the world of MMORPG Blizzard did the same thing to their beloved WoW and the ** creators** were absolutely destroyed by what happened and even made their own accounts at how evil it was to make their game for profit.

    They introduced multiple raiding difficulties expecting higher profits, which it didn't yield at all, and that led to the downfall of the game, raiders hated that because it reduced the quality of the incentive to even do raiding. Take this man named Harry that I knew from GameStop when I was 12. Harry at the time was 35 and loved wrath of the lich king and he had a static group for doing ICC. What happened is he did ICC on normal about 150 times. I'll let that sink in for a minute. When his group finally said they were going to do heroic mode he was so fed up as naturally anyone would be, of doing this stupid thing again and just quit the game for good.

    And this happened more and more down the line. Eventually in MoP they introduced LFR which was a joke of a mode where you can just die and afk for each boss at will and come out with the kill no questions asked, and that ruined even more of the incentive to do raiding. Now imagine, in wow right now you have 4 difficulties of raiding, and you need a certain ilvl to progress. When you finally reach Mythic raiding you've already beaten normal and heroic twice, you have good gear, and realistically you could just do Mythic+ dungeons for armor or just raid on Mythic like a full time job. By the time you've reached Mythic raiding you're super exhausted from doing the raid as a whole and just leave the game. Mythic raiding as a whole is an expensive frustration-ride and is the actual real boss that you don't fight in LFR, normal, and heroic. This means you've been fighting fake bosses for the last two weeks only to fight the real one and wipe 50+ times for 1 kill. You also have to work your butt off to get the potions of unbridled fury. And Blizzard did this deliberately for profits to keep the player running on the hamster wheel and I will tell you that collectively, WoW is just not fun. Don't get me wrong the Raids are fun it's raiding that's not fun.

    In contrast in Guild Wars 2 you get the real boss no questions asked and there is no line to cross to get into it other than being able to dodge roll out of orange circles and using the right builds. Knowing mechanics helps and so on. And you don't even need to look up guides guilds will go out of their way to train you if you're serious. In wow my first experience with LFR literally sucked out my soul from my body into a vortex, because here I thought I was going to get a challenge and I barely pressed a button to kill the boss, I literally ran around like an idiot swinging my sword like an idiot. At the end I asked, "That's it?" And literally just felt robbed out of fun.

    I use raiding as an example because raiding as you've said is not a for profit game mode. But realistically speaking it could be any aspect of the game even WvW. If they start abusing the player for money more it just ruins the quality of the game. If anything, many raiders would agree that raids are incredibly accessible and that anyone and I mean anyone can have access to raiding, you just have too have a positive mental attitude and a willingness to succeed. There's no reason to slash off raiding simply because you can't do it, and then mask off the negativity as content you need ANET to monetize in order to do. Don't destroy the quality of something you have that you've never used in a product. If I have a product and this product has many different features that I never use but could be of great value to me, it would be my fault for not reaping the benefits of the features not the designer of the product.

    Likewise like an instruction manual, the ANET guides for raiding on the wiki are pretty good, you don't need snowcrows builds and all of that nonsense. I would add pictures personally but they spare you from that so you experience the fun not watch it. Note that through cause and effect, ANET makes the game easy, then players who play everything easy will dominate the game. That actually reduces the quality of your MMORPG. Skins and visuals would effectively be the only good thing about the game and that will wear off quickly it's why so much of the initial launch population left, literally no investment in anything fun, and everyone was just grinding for that shiny skin. And that alone is unorthodox and really mundane. You'd see the aerodome empty and no real reason of doing raids to begin with as a group just solo it. Just do the raid solo...the most paradoxical statement on the planet.

    Letting analytics decide what's fun is literally not a game design method. The man in this video explains it perfectly. You're not a game designer if you're letting statistics and analytics decide what's fun.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 21, 2020

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    It's not that I am not looking at revenue from content which is an issue, it's that you are cherry picking what you want to look at under the guise of revenue maximization as goal.

    Of course I am, because that's the primary goal of a business. There isn't any 'guise' that revenue maximization is Anet's goal and that they are going to make business decisions based on that. When I suggest raids have a diminished development schedule because they don't have the revenue, it's not a ridiculous notion that some people would believe. It's likely VERY close to the truth. Are there other factors? Maybe. I didn't say there wasn't ... I simply believe revenue is the top one.

    It is a ridiculous notion because you make no differentiation as to when or why raids saw less development.

    Sure I did ... the when is whenever Anet made the decision to reduce their development. Do i have a calendar date for you? No ... but it happened at some point. The why is because of reduced revenues. There is NOTHING ridiculous about the idea a company decides to cut a product/service because of failing to being profitable. It's a common reason; I dare even propose it's the main reason.

    So, given how the developers were about to shelve the game, then did a 180 on that approach. You see no possibility that them reducing resources towards raids could have been a similar decision? Which was a contributing factor to the content losing its player base.

    Of course I do ... but because of low revenues. DO you think Anet woudl have reduced resources towards raids if it was the main revenue earner? OFC not.

    I think Anet reduced resource towards the entire game. I think they went back on that approach. I think some game modes were affected more drastically than others. I think recent actions suggest a try to fix this problem for those game modes.

    Hey, I don't disagree with that. The idea that Anet reduced the raid release schedule somewhere between 'very long' to 'infinite' because of reduced revenues doesn't conflict with any of that. Like I said ... it wouldn't be unreasonable for them to make 'resource reduction' decisions based on the services they offer that make money vs. those that don't.

    I get you think there is just a 'transfer' from raids to strike missions. If that's the case, it just supports my view that as originally offered, raids were not sustainable content to original adopters. And I believe that if there was a transfer, it was STILL a revenue-based decision.

    So in short: making any claims as to resource allocation based on revenue in this situation for that time frame WITHOUT any actual numbers is not feasible without an agenda.

    /shrug ... so is any other claim someone will make. This thread is purely speculative exercise. That's already been solidified in another post about 3 pages ago.

    You sound like someone determined to ruin the game for profits.

    You sound like someone fishing to have an argument. I've made my points. Feel free to address them.

    I'm going to ignore that you just said I'm looking for an argument. From a business perspective being greedy and hostile to your audience for money is exactly what led to the downfall of many businesses and products.

    OK ... that has nothing to do with my the points I've made on why I think raids have a small audience ... seems to me you didn't just ignore that post ... you ignored all the other ones I've made too.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 21, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I'd like to see that post where the developers stated that they stopped Raid development due to revenue because I can't find any.

    Are you implying a lack of a post from Anet proves me wrong? because if that's true, EVERYONE is wrong; I've NEVER seen a post with ANY reason for why they stopped it. Maybe you just don't understand this thread ... this will be the THIRD time I'm reminding people we are speculating here. Let's hope that does the trick for the hard of reading folks.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I'd like to see that post where the developers stated that they stopped Raid development due to revenue because I can't find any.

    Although their post about there not being enough players for them to justify further developing raids was not strictly talking about revenue, in the end it was exactly about it - that raids do not give them enough return back to justify the amount of resources they need.
    Unless, of course, you think they made that calculation without considering the financial aspect at all.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2020

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    In the world of MMORPG Blizzard did the same thing to their beloved WoW and the ** creators** were absolutely destroyed by what happened and even made their own accounts at how evil it was to make their game for profit.

    Riiight. They did it however from the safe haven of the one MMORPG that was (and still is, even in the current, vastly diminished market) at the top of food chain. Whle at the same time a lot of MMORPG games that forgot that business is primarily about profit came and went away, usually without even leaving their mark on the MMORPG scene.

    They introduced multiple raiding difficulties expecting higher profits, which it didn't yield at all, and that led to the downfall of the game, raiders hated that because it reduced the quality of the incentive to even do raiding. Take this man named Harry that I knew from GameStop when I was 12. Harry at the time was 35 and loved wrath of the lich king and he had a static group for doing ICC. What happened is he did ICC on normal about 150 times. I'll let that sink in for a minute. When his group finally said they were going to do heroic mode he was so fed up as naturally anyone would be, of doing this stupid thing again and just quit the game for good.

    While for each single Harry there were a ton of people that weren't even raiding before LFR got introduced. And most of people like Harry were already quitting at this point due to burnout anyway. Heroic mode might have made your Harry quit a little bit faster (possibly, but you never know, he might have been past the border already from your short description, seeing as it doesn't seem he enjoyed that content "stupid thing" anymore ), but it wasn't what made him quit.

    Don't get me wrong the Raids are fun it's raiding that's not fun.

    The point is, it never is, not after the first few succesful runs anyway. And yet no game can supply that type of content fast enough to ensure that the last one is still fun when the next one appears.

    In contrast in Guild Wars 2 you get the real boss no questions asked and there is no line to cross to get into it other than being able to dodge roll out of orange circles and using the right builds. Knowing mechanics helps and so on. And you don't even need to look up guides guilds will go out of their way to train you if you're serious. In wow my first experience with LFR literally sucked out my soul from my body into a vortex, because here I thought I was going to get a challenge and I barely pressed a button to kill the boss, I literally ran around like an idiot swinging my sword like an idiot. At the end I asked, "That's it?" And literally just felt robbed out of fun.

    That was my experience with GW2 raids, you know. All that long buildup, training, getting your team together, and in the end the encounters just weren't fun enough to justify all of this. If they were easier, the unfun "preperation" part would have been way shorter, which it might have made the whole deal way better.

    If they start abusing the player for money more it just ruins the quality of the game.

    True, but then multiple difficulty modes and LFR are hardly "abusing players for money". If you want an example for that, you need to look more towards things like GW2's implementation of build templates.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I'd like to see that post where the developers stated that they stopped Raid development due to revenue because I can't find any.

    Are you implying a lack of a post from Anet proves me wrong? because if that's true, EVERYONE is wrong; I've NEVER seen a post with ANY reason for why they stopped it. Maybe you just don't understand this thread ... this will be the THIRD time I'm reminding people we are speculating here. Let's hope that does the trick for the hard of reading folks.

    No reason to get so worked up about it. If it was mere speculation there wouldn't be 10 pages, some try to make their speculation appear as the hard truth.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I'd like to see that post where the developers stated that they stopped Raid development due to revenue because I can't find any.

    Although their post about there not being enough players for them to justify further developing raids was not strictly talking about revenue, in the end it was exactly about it - that raids do not give them enough return back to justify the amount of resources they need.

    Their post was a blanket statement, and honestly I don't like blanket statements. Putting all Raids in the same basket and making a statement about their popularity as a whole, is a very weak argument. Given by a developer no less. Not to mention it contradicts their past statements on the subject.

    Unless, of course, you think they made that calculation without considering the financial aspect at all.

    I don't think it's so hard to believe that the statement was a band-aid to promote their new Strike Missions over Raids, besides, just like with Dungeons, the Raid team was disbanded and most of the developers of that team left Arenanet during the layoffs, a rather similar situation with dungeons. Team left, content abandoned, Anet made excuses to justify the lack of content to promote their newest toy. Not the first time