Top 3 reasons why raids only attracted a small audience - Page 12 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Fractals/Dungeons/Strike Missions/Raids

Top 3 reasons why raids only attracted a small audience

167891012>

Comments

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2020

    @DutchRiders.2871 said:
    Are we not forgetting something really important ? Raids were fine at the start of HOT, when ya know they got updated etc. But 10 months for 2-4 easy bosses is not okey.

    We should stop caring about the type of player that spends alot of time at this game but has a very low skill lvl and yet still feel entitled. The real casuals dont give a kitten about balance and content, they wont post on any forums.

    Watch the Titania fight from FFXIV (i listen to the music version often), you'll notice that all the mechanics are clearly labeled and there's not a ton of multiple mechanics going on at once. I know that the small raid community doesn't want to see easier versions of their raids but i'm going to argue if you want them to be more popular and the devs actually give a kitten, then it needs to happen (and they need to be fun too, the mechanics in GW2 raids aren't fun all the time). GW2 raids are actually the most difficult in the genre because (or at least the most difficult among popular mmos) because:

    Overlapping mechanics - it's not uncommon for there to be multiple fatal mechanics at once.

    Number of players - raids in Gw2 are so small with so many roles (instead of tank, healer, dps; it's tank, healer, dps, boon support roles, of which there's up to 3 (might, alac, swift)) that it's harder for a raid to succeed when someone dies. Also add in mechanics like Dhuum and sloth that require a subset of the players to literally just do mechanics, and it's even more punishing

    I've raided heroic on and off in WoW and can clearly say that raids in this game are intended for people bored with CM fractal modes instead of like other games where newish/lowish geared players can do them on the easier modes before stepping into the hard stuff. The difficulty of some of the bosses are literally mythic level WoW without cm mode on. LFR queues in wow are almost dead people pug normal instead because of the caliber of people that are too lazy to make/join group finder groups. That's also kind of my gripe with GW2 players they talk about lfr like it's a breeze, when it can literally be a kitten show because of the caliber of player who chooses to do it.

    So yeah, there should be some sort of filter on players to keep out people who aren't willing to learn. But anet also needs to encourage an environment where new players can learn from experienced ones organically. I really want them to introduce seasons with seasonal rewards (and mechanics both positive and negative). They could make it a mechanic that helping players with fewer clears than you that season nets you a reward. The greater the difference in clear numbers, the greater the reward. Strikes run the risk of becoming like raids without anything encouraging interplay between experienced and inexperienced players, i'm already seeing people say "experienced players only" in lfg. I usually create my own groups and succeed, but there needs to be less toxicity in the community.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    One of the points i was making several times to you is that, most likely, they never had resources to make raid releases much faster. Yes, the forced joining of raid and LS release schedules might have delayed some specific raid releases, but they really did not slow the raid development as a whole. Raid wing being released month lor two later did not mean raid team was not doing anything during those two months. Longterm, if the raids were being released every 9-10 months, it means it was how often on average they could affort to ship them.

    Both w6 and w7 were delayed due to reasons beyond their ability to "solve". w6 was ready to ship with Long Live the Lich but was delayed for an entire episode cycle (that was also delayed) and w7 was released during a very bad time for the company, layoffs, that proved to be more serious that initially thought. As for what the Raid team was doing, it was Fractals, remember that the same team was making Raids and Fractals. And Fractals were also delayed because they were also attached to the episodes. Raids released every 9-10 months wasn't how often they could afford to ship them, you are forgetting Fractals being there, also delayed.

    Again, that doesn't mean they were sitting on their behinds twiddling their thumbs. They were working on something. What they were working on is irrelevant - no matter the delays with releases, the amount of work the team had would not change. It's not like the same team could suddenly churn out more content in the same time - to do that they would either need to increase the team, or give some of their other work (like fractals) to another team. Both cases means hiring new devs, so more resources spent.

    So, perhaps when they initially said that they were satisfied with the raid population, they meant a raid population that could accept that kind of schedule. It did not mean there were enough raiders for Anet to justify the schedule raiders wanted, however.

    This isn't entirely true. HOT Raids were still run (and even today groups still run them) despite the stop in releases. And even when POF raids were out, HOT raid popularity was still there. I don't think raiders wanted such a fast release schedule, at least not raiders that were also enjoying the rest of the game. For example between w4 and w5 there was a large delay, but I can easily justify it due to the expansion been released between them. I personally wouldn't want a Raid every month or anything like that because that would mean I had to play Raids exclusively and honestly I don't want that, I enjoy the entire game. Not sure how many "raiders" would feel the same and can't speak for everyone here but a 5-6 month schedule would've been enough, and it was the time frame given by the developers themselves. Not unreasonable.

    Except from what we heard, 5-6 months was the fastest they could make a raid wing, and that was not the only thing they were working on. So, again, maybe not unreasonable per se, but still requiring more resources. Possibly more resources they could afford to allocate for that.
    So, we're again at the point where the Anet might have seen that the population was fine for the resources allocated, but raiders (at least some of them) were not fine with the same resources allocated to them.
    And as for what the raiders wanted or didn't want, i'd say that was a result of the raiding community not being uniform. Those sticking to HoT raids might have wanted new content, that's true, but not the w5-w7 type of content. More of those would not do anything for them. It's entirely possible - even very likely - that if the PoF wings were easier, then that new content every 9-10 months would have been enough. On the other hand, those that were asking for that kind of difficulty, were the same kind of raiders that were asking for 3-4 releases per year, which obviously required way more resources than what Anet ever intended to provide.

    So, basically, they probably in the beginning had the population that was justifying the resources they were initially spending, but those resources turned out to be way too small to sustain that population. And the population was way too small to justify increasing the resources to the necessary amount to keep the content afloat.

    But it's not the job of Raids to sustain the population, at least not alone. If the rest of the releases weren't delayed too, or of questionable quality (Gandara?) then Raids wouldn't need a much faster schedule to begin with.

    Possible. For a lot of raiders, certainly. For the most vocal ones, though? Highly doubtful.

    You really treat those that enjoy Raids as players that like Raids exclusively and if there were no Raids in the game they'd quit.

    No, i am actually quite sure that a lot of raiders would have still continued to play this game even if no raids were ever implemented. Those were the players Anet could hope to retain even at the low raid schedule.

    I'm sure many of those that run a lot of Raids are still in the game, like myself, running Strike Missions, the new episodes or doing PVP/WVW or anything else the game has to offer. And talking about sustainability, HOT Raids are more popular than S4 zones, in the long run they are the better investment of time and money, there are more players in squads killing Vale Guardian on a reset day, than play in Ember Bay the entire week.

    Yeah, LS3/LS4 style one-shot maps were definitely not an example of stellar design. Another case where the attempt at monetizing the content has caused the content to suffer for it.

    Which, by the way, would be completely consistent with the predictions a lot of players were making around the time HoT launched. Raids were always the kind of content that to thrive required some heavy resource investments, and couldn;t just make do with being a small side project. It's something that if you want to have, you really, really need to focus on (or find other ways - like easy mode - to integrate them into mainstream content). Anet wanted to draw in raiders to gw2, but get away with only minimal investments - and that was never going to work.

    We'll see how they treat Strike Missions moving forward.

    Considering that they seem to be using the very same way of thinking still, i'm not very hopeful.

    As a final point, don't you think that it's very telling that the raid content that survived the test of time the best was the content that was here the longest, but at the same time was the easiest? Especially in the context of not needing easy mode?

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Again, that doesn't mean they were sitting on their behinds twiddling their thumbs. They were working on something. What they were working on is irrelevant - no matter the delays with releases, the amount of work the team had would not change. It's not like the same team could suddenly churn out more content in the same time - to do that they would either need to increase the team, or give some of their other work (like fractals) to another team. Both cases means hiring new devs, so more resources spent.

    What they were working on is what is important, as part of the problem with Raid cadence was the combination of the two teams, and the expectation to release something for each of Fractals and Raids every episode. They could release more if they weren't delayed by other teams outside their control (like VA, as was the case with Mythright Gambit), how much they were working on future wings while waiting for that is anyone's guess but it is also likely that they were working on other parts of the game too. As for hiring more devs, a better solution would be to not fire so many instead. Especially the leads. Firing or swapping leads mid-way is a sure way to cause delays.

    Except from what we heard, 5-6 months was the fastest they could make a raid wing, and that was not the only thing they were working on. So, again, maybe not unreasonable per se, but still requiring more resources. Possibly more resources they could afford to allocate for that.

    5-6 months wasn't the fastest, it was the only time frame we ever got.

    So, we're again at the point where the Anet might have seen that the population was fine for the resources allocated, but raiders (at least some of them) were not fine with the same resources allocated to them.

    But it wasn't a problem with resources allocated for the entirety of HOT and the first Raid of POF. Problems started after that, and guess what, it was -after- Hall of Chains that we learned the Fractals and Raid teams were combined. IT wasn't a resource allocation issue, nor a development team size problem, but a management issue. IT has always been the main problem with Raids and Fractals. Lack of a cohesive plan, lack of vision for the content. And apparently many many different voices and opinions inside the team itself that inhibited progress at any turn. "We are discussing this internally"

    On the other hand, those that were asking for that kind of difficulty, were the same kind of raiders that were asking for 3-4 releases per year, which obviously required way more resources than what Anet ever intended to provide.

    Not sure who was asking with 3-4 releases per year.

    Possible. For a lot of raiders, certainly. For the most vocal ones, though? Highly doubtful.

    You mean those asking for 3-4 releases per year and making unreasonable demands? They exist on every game it's a good idea to filter them out.

    Considering that they seem to be using the very same way of thinking still, i'm not very hopeful.

    I see they are changing their way of thinking a lot, especially when it comes to designing instanced content. It appears that they took the lessons from the POF failure and implement them.

    As a final point, don't you think that it's very telling that the raid content that survived the test of time the best was the content that was here the longest, but at the same time was the easiest? Especially in the context of not needing easy mode?

    I wouldn't say Wing 2 (Slothasor and Matthias) is any easier than W6 or W7, and Xera is very demanding boss too, so I wouldn't call them "easier". They were better designed for Raids yes, but not necessarily easier.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    But it wasn't a problem with resources allocated for the entirety of HOT and the first Raid of POF. Problems started after that, and guess what, it was -after- Hall of Chains that we learned the Fractals and Raid teams were combined.

    That's because a lot of raid work for the first 3 wings has been done as part of the work put for the expansion. And there was a cost to that - the cost was the 9 months of content drought after HoT launch. And while we learned after Hall of Chains about combining the teams, we heard later that the combining took place way earlier. Probably during the whole team restructuring that was caused by said content drought.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @DutchRiders.2871 said:
    Are we not forgetting something really important ? Raids were fine at the start of HOT, when ya know they got updated etc. But 10 months for 2-4 easy bosses is not okey.

    We should stop caring about the type of player that spends alot of time at this game but has a very low skill lvl and yet still feel entitled. The real casuals dont give a kitten about balance and content, they wont post on any forums.

    Watch the Titania fight from FFXIV (i listen to the music version often), you'll notice that all the mechanics are clearly labeled and there's not a ton of multiple mechanics going on at once. I know that the small raid community doesn't want to see easier versions of their raids but i'm going to argue if you want them to be more popular and the devs actually give a kitten, then it needs to happen (and they need to be fun too, the mechanics in GW2 raids aren't fun all the time). GW2 raids are actually the most difficult in the genre because (or at least the most difficult among popular mmos) because:

    Overlapping mechanics - it's not uncommon for there to be multiple fatal mechanics at once.

    Number of players - raids in Gw2 are so small with so many roles (instead of tank, healer, dps; it's tank, healer, dps, boon support roles, of which there's up to 3 (might, alac, swift)) that it's harder for a raid to succeed when someone dies. Also add in mechanics like Dhuum and sloth that require a subset of the players to literally just do mechanics, and it's even more punishing

    What is often forgotten, but is a very significant part to this is that it is also generally harder in gw2 to perform on the comparable level. So, in addition to all things you already mentioned, player still needs to keep their rotation right, because messing it up (which is very easy when there's a ton of other things going on) costs you a lot more than it would cost you in FF XIV. And keeping it up requires either way more "muscle memory", or way more attention. Usually both.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • JTGuevara.9018JTGuevara.9018 Member ✭✭✭

    ...sigh....

    No no no, I will tell you all the REAL reason raids attract a small audience: the raiding community.

    Raiders need to wake up and smell the coffee. I've played this game since the start. Raids were basically pushed by people on the forums, possibly WoW players or from other MMOs, because they were bored, simple as that. They weren't really asked for by the majority. They basically cried the loudest, tried to change gw2 to fit their way. The "hardcore" crowd pushed raids on this game, the developers listened..and we got HoT.

    As far as I'm concerned, the raiding community has made their bed. Now they need to lie in it. You also can't have it both ways! You cannot scapegoat and blame "the casuals" and newbies trying to break in while at the same time trying to recruit and entice them to play raids. You all need to make a CHOICE, make the raid easier or tiered to attract more players or keep the raid hard and not grow at all. I will tell you this, you will...not...get....both. That is a pipe dream. That is an anomaly that only happened in WoW, it ain't going to happen again! All this talk about how you're "better" than those "filthy open-worlders" is not going to endear you to them.

    As for me, I've raided for a few months in my guild. It's not really out of choice, though. This was before the big pvp/wvw update when I got back to those. I had nothing really to do at the time, I did t4 fracs, I avoided pvp/wvw because of the imbalance and powercreep, so all that was left was...raids. As a guild officer, I researched builds online, put time on the golem for rotations and actually killed some bosses. I never touched an LFG. Still...I didn't enjoy it. I didn't enjoy sitting there for two hours, I didn't enjoy the person on voice comms droning on and on and on trying to explain the encounter as I fall asleep. I didn't enjoy the forced banter between bosses that passes for "socialization".

    Frankly, the more I play MMOs these days, the less I enjoy them, the less I blame the devs and the more I place the blame on the communities . MMO players just generally have very bad attitudes, I'm sorry to say. (I think it's the Internet!) I'm basically distancing myself from MMOs, maybe even online games in general because of it.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    But it wasn't a problem with resources allocated for the entirety of HOT and the first Raid of POF. Problems started after that, and guess what, it was -after- Hall of Chains that we learned the Fractals and Raid teams were combined.

    That's because a lot of raid work for the first 3 wings has been done as part of the work put for the expansion. And there was a cost to that - the cost was the 9 months of content drought after HoT launch. And while we learned after Hall of Chains about combining the teams, we heard later that the combining took place way earlier. Probably during the whole team restructuring that was caused by said content drought.

    The first 3 Raid wings were mostly completed when HOT was released, the 9 month content drought wasn't the result of allocating resources to those Raids, but a scheduling issue, just like Raids in POF had to "wait" for an episode, at that time it was episodes that had to "wait" for the initial 3 Raids to be completed. Content having to wait until some other content is released was a dumb move then, it was a dumb move later, and I'm glad they finally gave up on it. Hopefully they will start releasing their non-episode related content when it is ready and not wait to bundle it up with an episode.

    Also, you missed the massive rework to HOT zones that happened during that "content drought", I wonder if that drought would exist if the community wasn't so upset about HOT.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 24, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    But it wasn't a problem with resources allocated for the entirety of HOT and the first Raid of POF. Problems started after that, and guess what, it was -after- Hall of Chains that we learned the Fractals and Raid teams were combined.

    That's because a lot of raid work for the first 3 wings has been done as part of the work put for the expansion. And there was a cost to that - the cost was the 9 months of content drought after HoT launch. And while we learned after Hall of Chains about combining the teams, we heard later that the combining took place way earlier. Probably during the whole team restructuring that was caused by said content drought.

    That's bs.

    The content drought after HoT's launch hardly has to do with the developers working on raids. The team was far to small for that. Blame anything you want, but this is nonsense.

    The content drought after HoT can and should be attributed to the entire studio, and going by that metric, the vast majority where working on other things than raids. Not factoring for that is unfair towards the small subset of developers who worked on 1 type of content.

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Frankly, the more I play MMOs these days, the less I enjoy them, the less I blame the devs and the more I place the blame on the communities . MMO players just generally have very bad attitudes, I'm sorry to say. (I think it's the Internet!) I'm basically distancing myself from MMOs, maybe even online games in general because of it.

    Interesting you should say that, I am surrounded by multiple players from multiple guilds which are perfectly fun, friendly and nice people. Maybe this is a you issue. If everyone else is at fault, maybe it's not them, maybe it's you.

    No this is not me bashing you. This is literally me saying: do some self evaluation of how you got to where you are and WHY you perceive things the way you do.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Interesting you should say that, I am surrounded by multiple players from multiple guilds which are perfectly fun, friendly and nice people.

    Human beings are inevitably terrible to those not in their groups. It's part of our monkey brains we've yet to evolve out of. The odds are in the favor of it not being a problem stemming from @JTGuevara.9018 .

    The Commander will end you.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 24, 2020

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Interesting you should say that, I am surrounded by multiple players from multiple guilds which are perfectly fun, friendly and nice people.

    Human beings are inevitably terrible to those not in their groups. It's part of our monkey brains we've yet to evolve out of. The odds are in the favor of it not being a problem stemming from @JTGuevara.9018 .

    That's nonsense.

    EDIT: do some reading on how social mammals behave, inside and outside their social circles. Your reasoning does not even hold up for monkeys. Animals are seldomly cruel or "terrible" even when defending their territory, tribe or w/e. Neither are human beings.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 24, 2020

    double post cause forums just went down

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 24, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    But it wasn't a problem with resources allocated for the entirety of HOT and the first Raid of POF. Problems started after that, and guess what, it was -after- Hall of Chains that we learned the Fractals and Raid teams were combined.

    That's because a lot of raid work for the first 3 wings has been done as part of the work put for the expansion. And there was a cost to that - the cost was the 9 months of content drought after HoT launch. And while we learned after Hall of Chains about combining the teams, we heard later that the combining took place way earlier. Probably during the whole team restructuring that was caused by said content drought.

    The first 3 Raid wings were mostly completed when HOT was released, the 9 month content drought wasn't the result of allocating resources to those Raids

    No, it wasn't. It was the result of them putting all the resources into doing HoT, instead of splitting off separate content teams for expansion, living story, raids etc, which they have only done around the end of said content drought. They even explained it when they were doing the April HoT rework and were talking about team restructuring. The "joining" of the fractal and Raid teams happened probably at the same time the whole team restructuring did.

    but a scheduling issue, just like Raids in POF had to "wait" for an episode, at that time it was episodes that had to "wait" for the initial 3 Raids to be completed.

    No. As they have explained, they were simply unable at this point to work on both expansion content and LS at the same time. That's what the restructuring was for. So, the "delay" was the result of them having to wait till the episode gets completed. Not for raid release schedule.

    Also, you missed the massive rework to HOT zones that happened during that "content drought", I wonder if that drought would exist if the community wasn't so upset about HOT.

    Yes, it would, for the reason explained above. The drought happened, because they started working on LS only after they released the expansion. And it took them 9 months to do that first episode (they mentioned at some point that it is the average time an episode takes, and that episode every 3 montsh is only possible because they have more than one team, that are working on them with a time-shifted schedule.
    So, basically, for the same reason that caused content drought in the period leading to HoT.

    Basically, again, they didn't have problems with resource allocation for first 3 wings, because they were being done as part of the whole expansion, so, being able to draw upon much bigger pool of resources. After they got split in a distinct team (and bundled together with fractal team, which, tbh, i'm not sure even existed before that point) that the real resource constrains happened.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    No, it wasn't. It was the result of them putting all the resources into doing HoT, instead of splitting off separate content teams for expansion, living story, raids etc, which they have only done around the end of said content drought. They even explained it when they were doing the April HoT rework and were talking about team restructuring. The "joining" of the fractal and Raid teams happened probably at the same time the whole team restructuring did.

    Given how we knew they had 3 different teams working on the 3 raid wings they already had separate teams available for Raids during development.

    No. As they have explained, they were simply unable at this point to work on both expansion content and LS at the same time. That's what the restructuring was for. So, the "delay" was the result of them having to wait till the episode gets completed. Not for raid release schedule.

    Episodes did have to wait for the 3 raid wings to be released before restarting... you think it was coincidence for the first episode of LS3 to be released one month after the last Raid wing? I think not, it was planned to be released that way. November -> March -> June, the Wings were released exactly 3 months apart, and Out of Shadows 1 month after the last of them. It was all planned and probably part of the reason why they didn't work on the LS during the creation of HOT. Scheduling was never Anet's strong aspect.

    After they got split in a distinct team (and bundled together with fractal team, which, tbh, i'm not sure even existed before that point) that the real resource constrains happened.

    It took them 5 months to complete Chaos Fractal so they started working on that only 3 months after the release of HOT, a time where they doing their final touches on the Raid wings. Also there were quite drastic changes in Fractals coming with HOT itself, so it's likely the team already existed. The Fractal and Raid teams was combined after Hall of Chains, when the same developers were working on both, and they responded during the AMAs. Before that they had different people responding to questions.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Animals are seldomly cruel or "terrible" even when defending their territory, tribe or w/e.

    Two seconds to find.

    Anyway, stop trying to negate @JTGuevara.9018's experiences because you feel it reflects poorly upon your in-group.

    The Commander will end you.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 24, 2020

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Animals are seldomly cruel or "terrible" even when defending their territory, tribe or w/e.

    Two seconds to find.

    ... thanks for proving my point. You found a video of a chimpanzee attack, good for you. On top of which this is one of the most aggressive chimpanzee tribes discovered. That is territory control and expanse. It happens, it has purpose, it is not the norm.

    Do you understand what most aggressive means in this context? It means just about all other tribes known are less aggressive.

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:
    Anyway, stop trying to negate @JTGuevara.9018's experiences because you feel it reflects poorly upon your in-group.

    Wow, you actually think I was talking about raiders versus non raiders? Amazing.

    How about general world view and understanding of society. I disagreed without your nonsense that the normal go to reaction between different groups is always "terrible" as you put it. I could care less about players who raid or do not raid.

    Again, do some basic reading on this subject matter instead of looking for youtube clips which you can't even put into context.

    As far as @JTGuevara.9018, my advice was genuine because he seemed as though he was getting less and less enjoyment out of the game/game type. Then again, what do I care, not at all at this point tbh.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 24, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Animals are seldomly cruel or "terrible" even when defending their territory, tribe or w/e.

    Two seconds to find.

    ... thanks for proving my point. You found a video of a chimpanzee attack, good for you. On top of which this is one of the most aggressive chimpanzee tribes discovered. That is territory control and expanse. It happens, it has purpose, it is not the norm.

    Do you understand what most aggressive means in this context? It means just about all other tribes known are less aggressive.

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:
    Anyway, stop trying to negate @JTGuevara.9018's experiences because you feel it reflects poorly upon your in-group.

    Wow, you actually think I was talking about raiders versus non raiders? Amazing.

    How about general world view and understanding of society. I disagreed without your nonsense that the normal go to reaction between different groups is always "terrible" as you put it. I could care less about players who raid or do not raid.

    Again, do some basic reading on this subject matter instead of looking for youtube clips which you can't even put into context.

    As far as @JTGuevara.9018, my advice was genuine because he seemed as though he was getting less and less enjoyment out of the game/game type. Then again, what do I care, not at all at this point tbh.

    I really have to agree with you here, it's not really a problem that someone starts enjoying a certain game/community less it happens from time to time.

    I do find it odd that they started by saying that the raid community is the cause but then talks about how he doesn't enjoy mmo communities in general.

    Edit : I do have to agree that people sometimes fall in this tribalistic thinking. Nationalism and this raiders vs nonraiders kitten is an example.

    It is not the norm though. Most of the time people indeed just don't care.

  • Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The current profession balance (or lack of) is causing a lot of issues.

  • JTGuevara.9018JTGuevara.9018 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Interesting you should say that, I am surrounded by multiple players from multiple guilds which are perfectly fun, friendly and nice people.

    Human beings are inevitably terrible to those not in their groups. It's part of our monkey brains we've yet to evolve out of. The odds are in the favor of it not being a problem stemming from @JTGuevara.9018 .

    That's nonsense.

    EDIT: do some reading on how social mammals behave, inside and outside their social circles. Your reasoning does not even hold up for monkeys. Animals are seldomly cruel or "terrible" even when defending their territory, tribe or w/e. Neither are human beings.

    Hah! Are you serious...?

    Josef Mengele, Adolf kitten, Pol Pot, George Sodini, Jeff Bundy, Harvey Weinstein, Eliott Rodger...those guys weren't cruel?...

    Seems it's you who needs to read more...

    You can't be serious....

    I never said there is no cruelty, I said it's not common or wide spread or in our nature or that of animals. You might want to realize what distinctions you are making and what terminology you are using. Society works despite those names you mentioned, not because of them. That's the difference you seem to not understand.

    Naming fringe cases or outliers is hardly proof, nor is it scientific. You should know that if you spent any time in a scientific environment.

    Not as common you say? I would differ with that. Just look at the totalitarianism of the 20th century, hardly a 'fringe' case. Millions of Germans were committed to cruelty on a massive scale against "others". They, as a whole, have atoned for their actions of the past in recent times. Humans have a dark side, it doesn't do anyone any good to downplay that.

  • JTGuevara.9018JTGuevara.9018 Member ✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Animals are seldomly cruel or "terrible" even when defending their territory, tribe or w/e.

    Two seconds to find.

    ... thanks for proving my point. You found a video of a chimpanzee attack, good for you. On top of which this is one of the most aggressive chimpanzee tribes discovered. That is territory control and expanse. It happens, it has purpose, it is not the norm.

    Do you understand what most aggressive means in this context? It means just about all other tribes known are less aggressive.

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:
    Anyway, stop trying to negate @JTGuevara.9018's experiences because you feel it reflects poorly upon your in-group.

    Wow, you actually think I was talking about raiders versus non raiders? Amazing.

    How about general world view and understanding of society. I disagreed without your nonsense that the normal go to reaction between different groups is always "terrible" as you put it. I could care less about players who raid or do not raid.

    Again, do some basic reading on this subject matter instead of looking for youtube clips which you can't even put into context.

    As far as @JTGuevara.9018, my advice was genuine because he seemed as though he was getting less and less enjoyment out of the game/game type. Then again, what do I care, not at all at this point tbh.

    I really have to agree with you here, it's not really a problem that someone starts enjoying a certain game/community less it happens from time to time.

    I do find it odd that they started by saying that the raid community is the cause but then talks about how he doesn't enjoy mmo communities in general.

    Edit : I do have to agree that people sometimes fall in this tribalistic thinking. Nationalism and this raiders vs nonraiders kitten is an example.

    It is not the norm though. Most of the time people indeed just don't care.

    No, raid communities are just one aspect of MMOs that I'm not fond of there are others. I only mention them for the sake of this post. There's also the immature, wannabe pvp tryhards that cannot handle defeat gracefully.

    I think it's safe to say that this will be my first and last MMO I play. MMOs just bring out the worst in people in general and I don't think it will ever be fixed.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Animals are seldomly cruel or "terrible" even when defending their territory, tribe or w/e.

    Two seconds to find.

    ... thanks for proving my point. You found a video of a chimpanzee attack, good for you. On top of which this is one of the most aggressive chimpanzee tribes discovered. That is territory control and expanse. It happens, it has purpose, it is not the norm.

    Do you understand what most aggressive means in this context? It means just about all other tribes known are less aggressive.

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:
    Anyway, stop trying to negate @JTGuevara.9018's experiences because you feel it reflects poorly upon your in-group.

    Wow, you actually think I was talking about raiders versus non raiders? Amazing.

    How about general world view and understanding of society. I disagreed without your nonsense that the normal go to reaction between different groups is always "terrible" as you put it. I could care less about players who raid or do not raid.

    Again, do some basic reading on this subject matter instead of looking for youtube clips which you can't even put into context.

    As far as @JTGuevara.9018, my advice was genuine because he seemed as though he was getting less and less enjoyment out of the game/game type. Then again, what do I care, not at all at this point tbh.

    I really have to agree with you here, it's not really a problem that someone starts enjoying a certain game/community less it happens from time to time.

    I do find it odd that they started by saying that the raid community is the cause but then talks about how he doesn't enjoy mmo communities in general.

    Edit : I do have to agree that people sometimes fall in this tribalistic thinking. Nationalism and this raiders vs nonraiders kitten is an example.

    It is not the norm though. Most of the time people indeed just don't care.

    No, raid communities are just one aspect of MMOs that I'm not fond of there are others. I only mention them for the sake of this post. There's also the immature, wannabe pvp tryhards that cannot handle defeat gracefully.

    I think it's safe to say that this will be my first and last MMO I play. MMOs just bring out the worst in people in general and I don't think it will ever be fixed.

    I do hope you find the game you are looking for. :)

    I do want to point out that what you perceive these communities to be doesn't really match reality as most people are not jerks in general. Ofcourse a few bad apples will sour the experience, but i hope you won't comb all raiders/pvpers/mmoplayers with the same brush. :)

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    The current profession balance (or lack of) is causing a lot of issues.

    Only with people that don't make good choices for who they play with.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 25, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Josiah.2967 said:
    The current profession balance (or lack of) is causing a lot of issues.

    Only with people that don't make good choices for who they play with.

    Nah. To anyone that at some point found out that the build they were running for a time already (and were used to) suddenly just stopped working.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I went as far as Xera and then decided that I simply did not enjoy the mode.

    Here is why:

    1. Too much ratio of organization time vs. time playing
    2. Too demanding on my schedule when making dedications to organized groups.
    3. Not so reliable of completions when LFGing casually, which often would result in a complete waste of my time.
    4. I didn't feel that the mode was challenging my personal mechanical skill factor anymore than T4 CM Fractals would, but rather it was challenging my patience with other players. <- That was a real turn off for me.
    5. The rewards were not appealing to me, considering the amount of social stigma that one must take on if they want to get involved in GW2 Raiding.

    I'm an old GW1 player who played everything on Hard Mode, so believe me when I say "I enjoy truly difficult content" because I do. But I like my difficult content to be the right type of difficult. GW2 Raiding is difficult to complete for all of the wrong reasons, unfortunately.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Raids attracted a "small audience" ...

    I'm shocked they set out to do exactly what they succeded in doing.
    It's 2020 and we stil have people trying to blame raids for their own personal lack of "fun".

    Like why ?
    What did this intentionally niche segement of the game do to hurt you given you likely weren't the target audience and didn't care about anything outside of the rewards that you weren't going to legitimately invest yourself into anyway.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 27, 2020

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    Raids attracted a "small audience" ...

    I'm shocked they set out to do exactly what they succeded in doing.
    It's 2020 and we stil have people trying to blame raids for their own personal lack of "fun".

    Like why ?
    What did this intentionally niche segement of the game do to hurt you given you likely weren't the target audience and didn't care about anything outside of the rewards that you weren't going to legitimately invest yourself into anyway.

    Perhaps designing content in such a way that its only meant for a small audience isnt healthy? They are trying to funnel more players into raids now too, and strikes are being added to story content, that impacts my fun and enjoyment of the game(yes ive done all the strikes, including whispers).

    Perhaps the majority of players wants access to PVE legendary armor for playing PVE Not a super small section of it? Theres alot of reasons why people hate raids.

    I dont hate raids, i dont enjoy them in a large part due to points 1, 2, and 4 of Trevors post above.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Statistic is lie. Explanation:
    In other mmo I complete ALL raids. Ant these raid I always complete after addons, where attributes is absolete, and we do 10/20 raids 2-5 ppl easy.
    But in guildwars2 we have great concept - don't push stat's values x size forward. We can say: Zerk is Zerk (c) me
    So I can't take chill roleplay ptv people, and go close the obsolete raid. The raid is same, dps timers exists, mechanic hurts, ppl die..
    I don't say this is ok, or bad. I say it is.
    So no magic that only 1-3% complete raids.

    for example I am sure will be big boom of player if we remove all timers, and make some achievement not depend form timers in raids. But raids wind come not fast, not each half year, so no reason do it.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    Raids attracted a "small audience" ...

    I'm shocked they set out to do exactly what they succeded in doing.
    It's 2020 and we stil have people trying to blame raids for their own personal lack of "fun".

    Like why ?
    What did this intentionally niche segement of the game do to hurt you given you likely weren't the target audience and didn't care about anything outside of the rewards that you weren't going to legitimately invest yourself into anyway.

    Perhaps designing content in such a way that its only meant for a small audience isnt healthy? They are trying to funnel more players into raids now too, and strikes are being added to story content, that impacts my fun and enjoyment of the game(yes ive done all the strikes, including whispers).

    Perhaps the majority of players wants access to PVE legendary armor for playing PVE Not a super small section of it? Theres alot of reasons why people hate raids.

    I dont hate raids, i dont enjoy them in a large part due to points 1, 2, and 4 of Trevors post above.

    Or perharps it's not a problem that the content has a niche audience. You know what else is niche content PvP and WvW.
    The real problem always has and always will come back to the Legendary Elephant in the room. People want it, they don't want to work for it like that small group has.

    It still doesn't explain why you're gonna blame the mode for your personal lack of fun when there's other options for you to get your rocks off. You want hard content that's less time/organization reliant Fractals exist. You want happy sappy time with friends and no effort the entire open world exist as do dungeons. Having a mode that caters to a smaller audience isn't bad and never was.

    Also strikes are hardly raid funnels, they're way too easy to be a raid funnel. Heck they're barely even a hard mode for general PvE.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:
    Perhaps designing content in such a way that its only meant for a small audience isnt healthy?

    To be fair if companies based their content based on the audience it attracts then Guild Wars 2 wouldn't exist and Arenanet would've made a moba instead. The type of content that attracts the most players. I know it's an extreme example and probably stretched but my point is, doing all of the same isn't gonna work forever, you need to branch out and try new things, find new audiences to complement the existing one. Basing game design on what's popular and what attracts the largest audience exclusively isn't very healthy for an MMORPG. Which is why none do it. And it's why this game launched with PVP, WVW, dungeons, jumping puzzles, world bosses and so on, are you sure all the different parts of the game are loved by a huge audience?

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 28, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:
    Perhaps designing content in such a way that its only meant for a small audience isnt healthy?

    To be fair if companies based their content based on the audience it attracts then Guild Wars 2 wouldn't exist and Arenanet would've made a moba instead.

    Um, what? The only reason GW2 DOES exist is because they offer content that attracts a particular kind of player that wasn't getting content offered to them in a way they wanted from other MMO's. Can you clarify? Are you suggesting the people that this game attracts would rather play an MOBA? If that's true, why are they not going off and doing that? What are they still doing here ?

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 28, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Um, what? The only reason GW2 DOES exist is because they offer content that attracts a particular kind of player that wasn't getting content offered to them in a way they wanted from other MMO's.

    That's exactly my point? The argument was that making content for a small audience was unhealthy. By comparison, the audience that is attracted by Guild Wars 2 is smaller than other game types like MOBAs. Judging by audience size is what is unhealthy.

    Can you clarify? Are you suggesting the people that this game attracts would rather play an MOBA? If that's true, why are they not going off and doing that? What are they still doing here ?

    Obviously not. Let's say this again: there are way more players that are interested in MOBAs than Guild Wars 2, so Guild Wars 2 will by design attract less players, so it will have a smaller audience. If you want, the better question is: "since MOBAs attract more players, why make Guild Wars 2?" And the answer is simple and you said it above: it attracts a different type of player. Smaller audience maybe, but different. Which is exactly why having a variety of offerings in a large game like an MMORPG is important. To attract many different types of players.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 28, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Um, what? The only reason GW2 DOES exist is because they offer content that attracts a particular kind of player that wasn't getting content offered to them in a way they wanted from other MMO's.

    That's exactly my point? The argument was that making content for a small audience was unhealthy. By comparison, the audience that is attracted by Guild Wars 2 is smaller than other game types like MOBAs. Judging by audience size is what is unhealthy.

    Can you clarify? Are you suggesting the people that this game attracts would rather play an MOBA? If that's true, why are they not going off and doing that? What are they still doing here ?

    Obviously not. Let's say this again: there are way more players that are interested in MOBAs than Guild Wars 2, so Guild Wars 2 will by design attract less players, so it will have a smaller audience. If you want, the better question is: "since MOBAs attract more players, why make Guild Wars 2?" And the answer is simple and you said it above: it attracts a different type of player. Smaller audience maybe, but different. Which is exactly why having a variety of offerings in a large game like an MMORPG is important. To attract many different types of players.

    OK I see ... I was confining my thinking to the MMO game space. But still, what you say is also applicable. I don't believe making content for a small audience is unhealthy ... it simply depends on how deep the pockets of that small audience is. :) This game technically COULD have an audience of one ...

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • kmfart.7480kmfart.7480 Member ✭✭

    20 years ago I was leading 70+ man raids into raid zones that took a weekend to clear (Everquest), while my guild typedchatted and drank beer and had a really good time. GW2 Raids is like a kindergarden, and really far below my expectations of what raids should be like in 2020.

    TBH, raids/strikes is the by far the worst content in GW2. Even vanilla dungeons are better.