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Top 3 reasons why raids only attracted a small audience

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  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020

    @Sylosi.6503 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Yes, the PvP game with PvE lobby was indeed the original intention for this game. It didn't last through beta however - and i mean GW1 beta. Frankly, most of the players never cared about PvP in the first place. And the PvE/WvW didn't matter only to those that weren't playing it.

    I'm not talking about the players, I'm talking about the "vision" of the game of Anet/Devs, their vision was PvP was the serious bit, PvE/WvW the casual bit. The combat / class design and balance reflected that for the first couple of years until they decided to change the game direction with HoT / Raids.

    Raids caused about as much problems...

    So like I said and contrary to what you claimed, raids did cause balance problems.

    And all of that still doesn't change the fact, that it's the core game design, not raids, that cause the current balance problems.

    Wrong, the core game design for combat/classes worked fine for what it was designed for - PvP, it only became an issue when they wanted to change the game into something else (more serious PvE than they initially planned) that the core game design did not fit that, that is down to them completely changing the direction of the game.

    There are a ton of things you could possibly blame raids for, but balance is not one of those.

    Wrong. The game was never intended to have "serious" PvE, so it was not designed for that in mind, the core game was fine for what was originally intended. Raids screwed balance up because the game was never supposed to have them and they had to wreck their own combat system to fit in BS for raids like "healers", make condie damage useful in PvE, have "tanks", etc all things that went against what the game was designed around.

    And what did they get, nothing other than a heavily declining game which is still considered a joke for PvE raiding when you can go play FF14 or something that does that sort of thing much better.

    The original designs were the problem. Unless of course players like mmo games where the majority run zerker/damage builds and see who can spam kill the fastest.

    https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/balance/PvX-Balance-Iteration-Wrongdoing

    “On the various forums one can find dozens of threads, often pertaining to – and addressing and re-addressing – the same issues, over and over. This is a problem, because it leads to a community perception of paralysis, which causes:
    1. A perception of neglect
    2. Accumulation of negative PR
    3. A perception of broken promises”

    “Balance and build diversity:
    Overall, build diversity in GW2 has been severely curtailed by the fact that entire lines of Utility skills and Traits have been underwhelming – yet balance has focused almost exclusively on the rare few “meta” builds and skills. This often comes to the detriment of multiple skills and Utilities. Arenanet’s insistence on “letting the meta settle” has resulted in patches coming every few months that iterate on balance – yet the changes within reflect an increasing disconnect of balance intention and balance result.”

    “Community Frustration and perception
    The lack of iteration has bred community frustration and resentment towards Arenanet who feel that the pace of development is glacial.”

    “balance should be in such a way that more builds than those listed above can have a place in a team composition without those builds shutting out others to the point of exclusion.”

    “For PVE, the so-called “Damage, Support, Control” alternative trinity so trumpeted as the innovation over the “Tank, Healer, DPS” trinity has dissipated in favour of “DPS, DPS, DPS”."

    “Slow, extremely hard hitting attacks have negated the need for Support – there is little need to support allies with healing if taking a hit means almost certain death. DPS with just enough Support through Boons has become the one true god and PvE encounters have devolved into a “stack mobs, cleave to death” DPS race over thoughtful, deliberate challenges that tax a group’s ability to co-ordinate and problem solve.”

    “Finally, there also exists the issue of balancing errors, and bugs affecting balance being unaddressed for significant periods.”

  • Sylosi.6503Sylosi.6503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The original designs were the problem. Unless of course players like mmo games where the majority run zerker/damage builds and see who can spam kill the fastest.

    The class designs and their combat mechanics were fine for a game that had super casual PvE. If people wanted to speed run dungeons then they picked the wrong game, but that is a problem with many PvE players in MMOs fullstop, too many think every MMO should be WoW and then cry about it when it isn't.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020

    @Sylosi.6503 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The original designs were the problem. Unless of course players like mmo games where the majority run zerker/damage builds and see who can spam kill the fastest.

    The class designs and their combat mechanics were fine for a game that had super casual PvE. If people wanted to speed run dungeons then they picked the wrong game, but that is a problem with many PvE players in MMOs fullstop, too many think every MMO should be WoW and then cry about it when it isn't.

    There are a ton more examples of class designs than wow.

    The devs here recognized the berserker meta was unhealthy for the game, hence the changes brought with HoT

  • Sylosi.6503Sylosi.6503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Sylosi.6503 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The original designs were the problem. Unless of course players like mmo games where the majority run zerker/damage builds and see who can spam kill the fastest.

    The class designs and their combat mechanics were fine for a game that had super casual PvE. If people wanted to speed run dungeons then they picked the wrong game, but that is a problem with many PvE players in MMOs fullstop, too many think every MMO should be WoW and then cry about it when it isn't.

    There are a ton more examples of class designs than wow.

    Tell it to the multitudes of PvE zombies who scream in every MMO that does things a little different, where are my raids, where are heals/tanks/DPS, why doesn't this game have addons, where is the DPS meter, where are the hard/easy modes, where is the LFG tool, etc...

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sylosi.6503 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Sylosi.6503 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The original designs were the problem. Unless of course players like mmo games where the majority run zerker/damage builds and see who can spam kill the fastest.

    The class designs and their combat mechanics were fine for a game that had super casual PvE. If people wanted to speed run dungeons then they picked the wrong game, but that is a problem with many PvE players in MMOs fullstop, too many think every MMO should be WoW and then cry about it when it isn't.

    There are a ton more examples of class designs than wow.

    Tell it to the multitudes of PvE zombies who scream in every MMO that does things a little different, where are my raids, where are heals/tanks/DPS, why doesn't this game have addons, where are the hard/easy modes, where is the LFG tool, etc...

    There is a lot different out there than wow.

  • My thoughts/reason raids have low pop is because players aren't willing to learn.

    Before even getting into a group (for first timers or ppl joining trainings) you should learn your class build from snowcrow, practice dps on the golem till you can get close to bench mark and also listen in discord.

    The amount of players I come across in raids that have their own build with your own rotation being out dps'd by the druid is just cringe... its meant to be the hardest content in game and you want to accept the challenge then atleast prepare your self and not the 'oh I'm just gonna play what I want cos I can and face tank all mechanics' attitude. This is one of the issues I see alot. If you dont know mechanics and have joined training group JOIN discord and listen. Very frustrating when you get stuck on one simple mechanic that one person does not do and either downs or dies.

    Raids are fun and challenging and definitely a learning curve jump from your average pve open world. BE PREPARED FOR IT.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:
    ultimately, the main reason raids have low pop is because most players simply do not find them fun.

    Apparently we just don't know any better and it's the ultimate form of pleasure.

    The Commander will end you.

  • For me it's just a matter of time. Specifically, time to train rotation, and time to learn the encounter.

    I've yet to run my rotations with boons on the training golem, but I'm just not reaching the sort of numbers I should be. Sure, my gear isn't 100% done (missing higher-end infusions), but it's more than good enough for raiding, but I fall quite short of benchmarks. I'm sure with more sessions in the training arena can get me there, but I find it exceedingly boring and feel stung by the opportunity cost of all the other cool things I could be doing rather than beating up a golem. The problem with practicing in the other parts of the game world have to do with not having optimal comps, enemies dying too fast, etc.

    But if I get right down to it, everything I said above about "time to train" are just excuses. After all, I can just put in a bit more effort on the special forces golem and I'm sure I'd build the muscle memory to get it right. The real time problem I have is finding a block of time where I post my own LFG, enter a raid, and fail for hours (and somehow find 9 people to share those hours of failure with me). If I were still a college student and could burn a huge chunk of prime gaming hours on weekends to learn raids at my own pace with a like minded group, this wouldn't be a problem.

    I suspect that a lot of the other competent 305 mastery folks that I run into for fractals and dungeons are in a similar position.

  • DoRi Silvia.4159DoRi Silvia.4159 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @DoRi Silvia.4159 said:
    Raids are fun and challenging

    But only for a small minority of players - because, ultimately, the main reason raids have low pop is because most players simply do not find them fun. Telling them "just BE PREPARED" won't change that - not when quite often it's that very preparation part that they dislike most.

    So, if people find preparing for raid is the issue to play raids then should anet lower the difficulty to suit players with lesser skill to clear with lesser rewards? (no leggy armors, less loots etc) because that looks like it won't be happening.
    ANET has been asked many times to have a difficulty scaling system with lesser rewards but it has not happened and the way things are going it wont be changing either (due to anet trying to train up player skill level through strikes instead).
    Tell me then how can new players (to raiding) do the current raids and training without preparing their rotations and builds while learning to do mechanics? because DPS is very important on most bosses in raids

    By all means I am all in for increasing raiding population because it means more interest for the devs to make more content but i am against raids becoming something so easy that you do not need to prepare for it at all - say like grothmar/bjora(1) strike difficulty for example - skinner being the exception

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DoRi Silvia.4159 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @DoRi Silvia.4159 said:
    Raids are fun and challenging

    But only for a small minority of players - because, ultimately, the main reason raids have low pop is because most players simply do not find them fun. Telling them "just BE PREPARED" won't change that - not when quite often it's that very preparation part that they dislike most.

    So, if people find preparing for raid is the issue to play raids then should anet lower the difficulty to suit players with lesser skill to clear with lesser rewards? (no leggy armors, less loots etc) because that looks like it won't be happening.

    If they want more players to raid, then yes, they will have to either lower the difficulty of the current version, or create a separate, lower difficulty one.

    Tell me then how can new players (to raiding) do the current raids and training without preparing their rotations and builds while learning to do mechanics? because DPS is very important on most bosses in raids

    They can't, obviously. Which is one of the main reasons why raids are not very popular.

    Strikes won't help there. They just ramp up difficulty, but don't actually teach anything that could not have been already learned elsewhere (and specifically teach nothing about builds, rotations etc). Nor have they a chance of causing players to suddenly start liking things they didn't like before.

    By all means I am all in for increasing raiding population because it means more interest for the devs to make more content but i am against raids becoming something so easy that you do not need to prepare for it at all - say like grothmar/bjora(1) strike difficulty for example - skinner being the exception

    There's no magic solution here. If the raids are to become more popular, they'd need to change into a type of content more players would like - there's no way around it. If they are to stay the way they're now, however, they won't become more popular, and they wont be developed anymore.
    Whichever way is chosen, it's going to disappoint some people. Possibly even those same people, but for different reasons in each case. One thing i think we can safely expect is for strikes to not be of any help in that regard

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Strider.7849Strider.7849 Member ✭✭✭

    I can't speak for others but I can speak for why I've never completed a raid. Even as a player that has a good grasp of all other game modes, effective dodging, meta builds, and skillful play - if you don't have KP or lack experience you won't get accepted into a group - you have to run with beginners who still struggle with using dodge or run inefficient wacky builds. The biggest reason though is 10 man instanced combat really sucks. It's near impossible to put together a group of people that fits your schedule in a group of 10.

    I won't be doing raids regardless of how many strike missions or incentives they put in. The only way I'd even try it is if they reduced the number of people required to 5 OR made a hotjoin/quick join button to automatically put you into a raid group, like WoW.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    ultimately, the main reason raids have low pop is because most players simply do not find them fun.

    Apparently we just don't know any better and it's the ultimate form of pleasure.

    Yeah, it's always strange to hear people say "just create your own group", or "if you would just put in effort".
    @Astralporing.1957 hit the nail on the head. Raiding is just not fun to some. And games are there to have fun.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • There is a population of players that just don't have the ability to commit a chunk of time to get into Raids. A lot of people (myself included) have full time jobs, kids, school, etc that just make it almost impossible to be able to sit down and play uninterrupted for any period of time. I can log on for several hours a day, but actual time spent playing may only be 30 min to 1 hour because of distractions. Maybe difficulty scaling would change that like others have suggested...maybe if players could experience the raid content in a condensed version with similar mechanics and fractal level rewards it would make the transition easier. I think personally if i could experience raid bosses in 5 man content (fractals) I would be much more willing to try and get into the Raids for the better rewards and achievements as it would be a less time consuming endeavor than trying to learn everything from scratch.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SamuraiJack.7156 said:
    There is a population of players that just don't have the ability to commit a chunk of time to get into Raids. A lot of people (myself included) have full time jobs, kids, school, etc that just make it almost impossible to be able to sit down and play uninterrupted for any period of time. I can log on for several hours a day, but actual time spent playing may only be 30 min to 1 hour because of distractions. Maybe difficulty scaling would change that like others have suggested...maybe if players could experience the raid content in a condensed version with similar mechanics and fractal level rewards it would make the transition easier. I think personally if i could experience raid bosses in 5 man content (fractals) I would be much more willing to try and get into the Raids for the better rewards and achievements as it would be a less time consuming endeavor than trying to learn everything from scratch.

    Frankly, at this point in game history, we can't really expect any sort of meaningful transition into raid content. The players that it might have affected are already raiding. The players that are not raiding are those that do not like raids as they are now.

    Easy mode would not really directly expand population of the current raids by the way of transition. There would be a trickle of players moving from them to the normal mode, but it would not affect the normal mode population in significant way. What easy mode might do, however, would be to expand the population of raids as a whole (so, easy + normal mode) to the point where Anet might feel assigning some dev time to them is not a waste. And that might indeed positively impact normal raid population, or at least slow/stop the decay of the current raid community.

    Basically, with more than one difficulty mode, it would be okay to spend resources on unpopular mode, because most of those resources would also be used by the more popular one (and thus wouldn't be wasted). It would also be okay to do more difficult raid fights, because Anet would no longer need to feel constrained by having to adjust the difficulty of raid wings so it would satisfy the whole raid community (which obviously doesn't work all that well, as the past history has shown).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    If they want more players to raid, then yes, they will have to either lower the difficulty of the current version, or create a separate, lower difficulty one.

    That's assuming the barrier for Raid popularity is difficulty

    Basically, with more than one difficulty mode, it would be okay to spend resources on unpopular mode, because most of those resources would also be used by the more popular one (and thus wouldn't be wasted). It would also be okay to do more difficult raid fights, because Anet would no longer need to feel constrained by having to adjust the difficulty of raid wings so it would satisfy the whole raid community (which obviously doesn't work all that well, as the past history has shown).

    That's assuming the new difficulty mode will attract enough players to not only justify its own existence, as it will take resources to make, but also this increase will lead to an overall increase in Raid activity/popularity.

    Let's assume that there are 1000 players that Raid and a Raid has a "development cost" of 100. It's not worth making Raid content because there are too many resources needed, per player. Now they add another difficulty mode which attracts some more players into Raids, but increases the development cost to 120. In order for this extra mode to be worth it in the first place, the number of players it brings in must be (in the example above) higher than 200, otherwise the end result of resources/player will be the same as without it. And if it attracts let's say 100 players, then it will be a net reduction and overall make the situation worse, not better.

    It's easy to assume that adding a new difficulty mode will bring in new players. The question is how many will it bring and if this investment will be worth it. Regardless of their shortcomings, Strike Missions show this population that will be interested in a more easy version of challenging group content. It remains for someone at Arenanet to do the math and figure out if it's worth it.

  • Pirogen.9561Pirogen.9561 Member ✭✭✭

    Someone said, that there are 4 types of (MMO) players: Achievers, Explorers, Socializers and Killers.

    Achievers want to beat the game. They want levels, gear, gold, points.
    Explorers want to explore, see everything that can be seen.
    Socializers want to interact with other player. Socialize, chat.
    Killers are into competitive mode. PvP.

    I don't totaly buy this classification, but I do agree with the fact that different people play the same game for different reasons. And that they are all legit players.

    Raid goes under Achievers. Raid is not 100% of Achievers. Raid is a part of a part of a game. So if you are not into Achievers, nothing will change that. Even if you are Achiever, it still doesn't mean you are into raids.

    You can't "kitten" not-raiders to like raid more. Explorers will do it maybe once(to explore it), Socializers will want to chat in the middle of boss fight and Killers will just want to join boss monster and kill other players.

    The only way to get more raiders is to increase overall population so that some would be Achievers and also Raiders.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    If they want more players to raid, then yes, they will have to either lower the difficulty of the current version, or create a separate, lower difficulty one.

    That's assuming the barrier for Raid popularity is difficulty

    Because it is. Or, rather, all the consequences that difficulty brings with it.
    Many players are simply not interested in putting a lot of time into keeping their builds up to date, practicing their rotations (and redoing all that everytime Anet messes with the meta), having to train boss mechanics many times over, having to find a group of people that would also do that (and potentially having to train them to be up to standarts). Having to replace/train new players in case one of their static members decides to leave. Even, if they are personally capable of doing exactly that.
    And that's for statics. With pugs we have the added "fun" of having to deal with players that are definitely not up to standarts, and, obviously, worse group coherency and organization.
    Most players just do not find it fun at all, and don't consider raids to be worth having to deal with all that.

    Basically, with more than one difficulty mode, it would be okay to spend resources on unpopular mode, because most of those resources would also be used by the more popular one (and thus wouldn't be wasted). It would also be okay to do more difficult raid fights, because Anet would no longer need to feel constrained by having to adjust the difficulty of raid wings so it would satisfy the whole raid community (which obviously doesn't work all that well, as the past history has shown).

    That's assuming the new difficulty mode will attract enough players to not only justify its own existence, as it will take resources to make, but also this increase will lead to an overall increase in Raid activity/popularity.

    Let's assume that there are 1000 players that Raid and a Raid has a "development cost" of 100. It's not worth making Raid content because there are too many resources needed, per player. Now they add another difficulty mode which attracts some more players into Raids, but increases the development cost to 120. In order for this extra mode to be worth it in the first place, the number of players it brings in must be (in the example above) higher than 200, otherwise the end result of resources/player will be the same as without it. And if it attracts let's say 100 players, then it will be a net reduction and overall make the situation worse, not better.

    It's easy to assume that adding a new difficulty mode will bring in new players. The question is how many will it bring and if this investment will be worth it.

    Yes, that is a question. If it will, that's obviously good for raids. If it won't, then probably nothing will help them anyway.
    Although at this point i think there's no point anymore. It was something that should have been done long ago, but by now it is way too late to change anything. There's simply nothing to salvage anymore.

    Regardless of their shortcomings, Strike Missions show this population that will be interested in a more easy version of challenging group content. It remains for someone at Arenanet to do the math and figure out if it's worth it.

    I don't think they will show anything like that. Anet is pushing way too hard for strikes to become "bridge to raids", but at the same time they are pushing them at players the least likely to be interested in midcore content (but most likely to get angry for having to deal with 10-man "raidlike" content in their open world LS metaachieves).

    Besides, like i said, i am afraid it is way too late. The players that might have been potentially interested in "easy mode" for the most part do not want to even hear anything about raids anymore - they either no longer care, or are too angry about the issue. And the community that wanted raids in the first place also mostly decayed beyond the point of recovery, and won't be coming back even if Anet decided to assign some resources to raid development again.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I don't think they will show anything like that. Anet is pushing way too hard for strikes to become "bridge to raids", but at the same time they are pushing them at players the least likely to be interested in midcore content (but most likely to get angry for having to deal with 10-man "raidlike" content in their open world LS metaachieves).

    They release instanced 10-man content that is considerably easier than most Raids. I find it really unlikely that someone that doesn't run the Shiverpeak Pass or Fraenir of Jormag Strikes would be interested in an easier version of Vale Guardian. Which is why I say that Strikes can show at least the upper limit of players interested in instanced content.

    Besides, like i said, i am afraid it is way too late. The players that might have been potentially interested in "easy mode" for the most part do not want to even hear anything about raids anymore - they either no longer care, or are too angry about the issue. And the community that wanted raids in the first place also mostly decayed beyond the point of recovery, and won't be coming back even if Anet decided to assign some resources to raid development again.

    That's why they released Strike Missions and not an easy version for Raids, they probably know it's too late. At the very least, if Strike Missions fail to get more players into Raids, they ARE new content that could possibly stand on its own, an easier version for the Raids would have a much harder time to stand on its own. So Strike Missions was the logical choice over easier Raids.

  • Ragi.7291Ragi.7291 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2020

    I don't see why there's all this tension around the raids, the raid development team is small compared to the other teams.

    Also, stop saying that raids are a waste of time, nothing is a waste of time.
    All assets, FX, game design elements, boss mechanics, skeleton, models and others are made to be reusable in living history and fractal or open world.
    It's a waste of time if they are not reused.

    I give you an example Drakkar takes a lot of mechanics from Tequattle or samarog.

    After the raid doesn't work because :

    1. already 10 people have grouped together it's long.

    2. Raids are at one end of open world where you just have to spam 1 and there is no difficulty.

    3. Personally I think they should rework the balance, and a little bit the fighting system to reduce the difference between a casu player and hardcore on the same build.
      And so do like a lot of mmo, guided implicitly the players used or not this skill.
      Example a CC makes 0 of damage thus no utility of the used for a casu player, on the other hand when there is a bar of CC this one should light up. (in open world)

    Finally increased the difficulties of the open world and living history, to implicitly force players to master their character a little more than spamm 1 for 20 minutes once every 2 or 3 months.
    If this is resolved the general level will be higher and the level between casu and hard core will be lower.

    1. As in many games (FF14, WoW, ...), the strike or raid missions are directly included in the basic story so that the whole player base goes through it and there is an easy mode and a hard mode. (these should have been done from the beginning.)

    2. After that arenanet the only thing they can do to attract people to raid is to put in even more attractive rewards, but they can't do more.

      The rest is just personal investment is what you accept to spend several hours trying a boss, learning mechanics, and for that die in a loop with your 9 other companions.

  • Manasa Devi.7958Manasa Devi.7958 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Regardless of their shortcomings, Strike Missions show this population that will be interested in a more easy version of challenging group content. It remains for someone at Arenanet to do the math and figure out if it's worth it.

    I know this is the topic of another thread, but the way they're going about this is one that'll create false positives. I've done strike missions. Because I needed to to get the new emote. I sure hope they don't consider my exactly 20 strike mission successes as an indication that I'm interested in them, nor all the other people for whom this was a "done with it forever now I got the reward" situation.

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2020

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2020

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.
    I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.
    Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.
    I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.
    Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

    Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.
    Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

    PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.
    I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.
    Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

    Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.
    Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

    PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

    But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.
    Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.
    From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.
    I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.
    Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

    Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.
    Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

    PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

    But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.
    Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.
    From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

    You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.
    Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.
    In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.
    I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.
    Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

    Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.
    Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

    PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

    But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.
    Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.
    From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

    You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.
    Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.
    In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.

    Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2020

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.
    I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.
    Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

    Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.
    Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

    PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

    But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.
    Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.
    From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

    You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.
    Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.
    In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.

    Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.

    I don't think he would pass on a cure, but he also doesn't have the choice to walk on two legs. Someone in my social vicinity I interact quite often with is bound to a wheelchair. Of course it is a handicap for that person, but they didn't choose to have the disability. I don't even see how you can compare something you're forced in to, to a PUG you aren't forced to be a part of.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.
    I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.
    Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

    Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.
    Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

    PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

    But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.
    Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.
    From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

    You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.
    Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.
    In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.

    Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.

    I don't think he would pass on a cure, but he also doesn't have the choice to walk on two legs. Someone in my social vicinity I interact quite often with is bound to a wheelchair. Of course it is a handicap for that person, but they didn't choose to have the disability. I don't even see how you can compare something you're forced in to a PUG you aren't forced to be a part of.

    That's kinda my point here, many people complain that raids are too hard, that the raiding community are a bunch of elitist toxic zealots and whatnot. All while insisting on raiding with pugs, which is basically raiding with a handicap.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2020

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.
    I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.
    Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

    Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.
    Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

    PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

    But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.
    Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.
    From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

    You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.
    Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.
    In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.

    Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.

    I don't think he would pass on a cure, but he also doesn't have the choice to walk on two legs. Someone in my social vicinity I interact quite often with is bound to a wheelchair. Of course it is a handicap for that person, but they didn't choose to have the disability. I don't even see how you can compare something you're forced in to a PUG you aren't forced to be a part of.

    That's kinda my point here, many people complain that raids are too hard, that the raiding community are a bunch of elitist zealouts and whatnot. All while insisting on raiding with pugs, which is basically raiding with a handicap.

    Or maybe they just aren't fun to them, because they dislike that type of content. I've pugged and raided with a guild myself. I'd still say that raids are unfun, not hard. The only hard part about raids is outside of raids. Finding the time, finding the right people etc..

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

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    @Raknar.4735 said:

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    @Raknar.4735 said:

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    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

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    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.
    I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.
    Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

    Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.
    Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

    PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

    But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.
    Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.
    From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

    You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.
    Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.
    In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.

    Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.

    I don't think he would pass on a cure, but he also doesn't have the choice to walk on two legs. Someone in my social vicinity I interact quite often with is bound to a wheelchair. Of course it is a handicap for that person, but they didn't choose to have the disability. I don't even see how you can compare something you're forced in to a PUG you aren't forced to be a part of.

    That's kinda my point here, many people complain that raids are too hard, that the raiding community are a bunch of elitist zealouts and whatnot. All while insisting on raiding with pugs, which is basically raiding with a handicap.

    Or maybe they just aren't fun to them, because they dislike that type of content. I've pugged and raided with a guild myself. I'd still say that raids are unfun, not hard. The only hard part about raids is outside of raids. Finding the time, finding the right people etc..

    They clearly say that raids are way too hard and all the other things I said. I don't say that, they do.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

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    @Raknar.4735 said:

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    @Raknar.4735 said:

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    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.
    I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.
    Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

    Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.
    Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

    PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

    But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.
    Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.
    From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

    You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.
    Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.
    In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.

    Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.

    I don't think he would pass on a cure, but he also doesn't have the choice to walk on two legs. Someone in my social vicinity I interact quite often with is bound to a wheelchair. Of course it is a handicap for that person, but they didn't choose to have the disability. I don't even see how you can compare something you're forced in to a PUG you aren't forced to be a part of.

    That's kinda my point here, many people complain that raids are too hard, that the raiding community are a bunch of elitist zealouts and whatnot. All while insisting on raiding with pugs, which is basically raiding with a handicap.

    Or maybe they just aren't fun to them, because they dislike that type of content. I've pugged and raided with a guild myself. I'd still say that raids are unfun, not hard. The only hard part about raids is outside of raids. Finding the time, finding the right people etc..

    They clearly say that raids are way too hard and all the other things I said. I don't say that, they do.

    Yeah, they also clearly state that they just dislike raiding.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

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    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

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    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.
    I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.
    Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

    Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.
    Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

    PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

    But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.
    Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.
    From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

    You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.
    Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.
    In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.

    Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.

    I don't think he would pass on a cure, but he also doesn't have the choice to walk on two legs. Someone in my social vicinity I interact quite often with is bound to a wheelchair. Of course it is a handicap for that person, but they didn't choose to have the disability. I don't even see how you can compare something you're forced in to a PUG you aren't forced to be a part of.

    That's kinda my point here, many people complain that raids are too hard, that the raiding community are a bunch of elitist zealouts and whatnot. All while insisting on raiding with pugs, which is basically raiding with a handicap.

    Or maybe they just aren't fun to them, because they dislike that type of content. I've pugged and raided with a guild myself. I'd still say that raids are unfun, not hard. The only hard part about raids is outside of raids. Finding the time, finding the right people etc..

    They clearly say that raids are way too hard and all the other things I said. I don't say that, they do.

    Yeah, they also clearly state that they just dislike raiding.

    So what is their problem? If they dont like raiding they shouldn't raid xD. What do they want then? Legendary armor from open world content? There is no other form of challanging content in PvE besides raids/fractals.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

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    @Raknar.4735 said:

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    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

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    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.
    I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.
    Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

    Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.
    Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

    PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

    But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.
    Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.
    From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

    You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.
    Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.
    In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.

    Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.

    I don't think he would pass on a cure, but he also doesn't have the choice to walk on two legs. Someone in my social vicinity I interact quite often with is bound to a wheelchair. Of course it is a handicap for that person, but they didn't choose to have the disability. I don't even see how you can compare something you're forced in to a PUG you aren't forced to be a part of.

    That's kinda my point here, many people complain that raids are too hard, that the raiding community are a bunch of elitist zealouts and whatnot. All while insisting on raiding with pugs, which is basically raiding with a handicap.

    Or maybe they just aren't fun to them, because they dislike that type of content. I've pugged and raided with a guild myself. I'd still say that raids are unfun, not hard. The only hard part about raids is outside of raids. Finding the time, finding the right people etc..

    They clearly say that raids are way too hard and all the other things I said. I don't say that, they do.

    Yeah, they also clearly state that they just dislike raiding.

    So what is their problem? If they dont like raiding they shouldn't raid xD. What do they want then? Legendary armor from open world content? There is no other form of challanging content in PvE besides raids/fractals.

    Funny thing you said that, that is actually what they do, hence "the small audience they attract". But Anet for some reason still tries to push for that type of instanced content, now via Strikes.

    Raids and fractals aren't challenging content, just dance routines. PvP and WvW is where the challenge is :P

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

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    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

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    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

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    @Raknar.4735 said:

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    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.
    I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.
    Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

    Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.
    Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

    PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

    But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.
    Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.
    From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

    You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.
    Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.
    In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.

    Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.

    I don't think he would pass on a cure, but he also doesn't have the choice to walk on two legs. Someone in my social vicinity I interact quite often with is bound to a wheelchair. Of course it is a handicap for that person, but they didn't choose to have the disability. I don't even see how you can compare something you're forced in to a PUG you aren't forced to be a part of.

    That's kinda my point here, many people complain that raids are too hard, that the raiding community are a bunch of elitist zealouts and whatnot. All while insisting on raiding with pugs, which is basically raiding with a handicap.

    Or maybe they just aren't fun to them, because they dislike that type of content. I've pugged and raided with a guild myself. I'd still say that raids are unfun, not hard. The only hard part about raids is outside of raids. Finding the time, finding the right people etc..

    They clearly say that raids are way too hard and all the other things I said. I don't say that, they do.

    Yeah, they also clearly state that they just dislike raiding.

    So what is their problem? If they dont like raiding they shouldn't raid xD. What do they want then? Legendary armor from open world content? There is no other form of challanging content in PvE besides raids/fractals.

    Funny thing you said that, that is actually what they do, hence "the small audience they attract". But Anet for some reason still tries to push for that type of instanced content, now via Strikes.

    Raids and fractals aren't challenging content, just dance routines. PvP and WvW is where the challenge is :P

    Crazy Arena net listening to the players and taking them at their word when they say raids are too hard for them.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2020

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

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    @Raknar.4735 said:

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    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

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    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.
    I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.
    Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

    Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.
    Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

    PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

    But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.
    Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.
    From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

    You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.
    Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.
    In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.

    Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.

    I don't think he would pass on a cure, but he also doesn't have the choice to walk on two legs. Someone in my social vicinity I interact quite often with is bound to a wheelchair. Of course it is a handicap for that person, but they didn't choose to have the disability. I don't even see how you can compare something you're forced in to a PUG you aren't forced to be a part of.

    That's kinda my point here, many people complain that raids are too hard, that the raiding community are a bunch of elitist zealouts and whatnot. All while insisting on raiding with pugs, which is basically raiding with a handicap.

    Or maybe they just aren't fun to them, because they dislike that type of content. I've pugged and raided with a guild myself. I'd still say that raids are unfun, not hard. The only hard part about raids is outside of raids. Finding the time, finding the right people etc..

    They clearly say that raids are way too hard and all the other things I said. I don't say that, they do.

    Yeah, they also clearly state that they just dislike raiding.

    So what is their problem? If they dont like raiding they shouldn't raid xD. What do they want then? Legendary armor from open world content? There is no other form of challanging content in PvE besides raids/fractals.

    Funny thing you said that, that is actually what they do, hence "the small audience they attract". But Anet for some reason still tries to push for that type of instanced content, now via Strikes.

    Raids and fractals aren't challenging content, just dance routines. PvP and WvW is where the challenge is :P

    Crazy Arena net listening to the players and taking them at their word when they say raids are too hard for them.

    They aren't actually listening to the vocal players, just evaluating some of their metrics that show that only a small audience plays raids. Fractals seem to be in a healthier state.
    I don't think they've found the right conclusion though. I'm very sceptical of their decision to use SMs as a bridge to raids.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:

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    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.
    I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.
    Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

    Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.
    Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

    PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

    But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.
    Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.
    From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

    You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.
    Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.
    In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.

    Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.

    I don't think he would pass on a cure, but he also doesn't have the choice to walk on two legs. Someone in my social vicinity I interact quite often with is bound to a wheelchair. Of course it is a handicap for that person, but they didn't choose to have the disability. I don't even see how you can compare something you're forced in to a PUG you aren't forced to be a part of.

    That's kinda my point here, many people complain that raids are too hard, that the raiding community are a bunch of elitist zealouts and whatnot. All while insisting on raiding with pugs, which is basically raiding with a handicap.

    Or maybe they just aren't fun to them, because they dislike that type of content. I've pugged and raided with a guild myself. I'd still say that raids are unfun, not hard. The only hard part about raids is outside of raids. Finding the time, finding the right people etc..

    They clearly say that raids are way too hard and all the other things I said. I don't say that, they do.

    Yeah, they also clearly state that they just dislike raiding.

    So what is their problem? If they dont like raiding they shouldn't raid xD. What do they want then? Legendary armor from open world content? There is no other form of challanging content in PvE besides raids/fractals.

    Funny thing you said that, that is actually what they do, hence "the small audience they attract". But Anet for some reason still tries to push for that type of instanced content, now via Strikes.

    Raids and fractals aren't challenging content, just dance routines. PvP and WvW is where the challenge is :P

    Crazy Arena net listening to the players and taking them at their word when they say raids are too hard for them.

    They aren't actually listening to the players, just evaluating some of their metrics that show that only a small audience plays raids. Fractals seem to be in a healthier state.
    I don't think they've found the right conclusion though. I'm very sceptical of their decision to use SMs as a bridge to raids.

    I don't think its the right solution too. I think the obvious conclusion that some sort of bridge is needed comes from the massive DPS difference between the average player and the good players . The right solution is adding challenge along the way so that people dont just roflstomp all the open world content with autoattacks. Notice that the OP basically says that people don't raid because they are too hard and too toxic lol.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2020

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Amaranthe.3578 said:
    Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

    Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

    The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

    People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
    I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
    Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

    Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
    You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

    Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

    Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

    Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

    I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

    Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
    Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

    No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

    Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

    No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

    To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

    PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

    Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

    Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

    Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

    PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

    It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

    Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

    Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

    In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

    I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.
    I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.
    Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

    Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.
    Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

    PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

    But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.
    Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.
    From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

    You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.
    Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.
    In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.

    Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.

    I don't think he would pass on a cure, but he also doesn't have the choice to walk on two legs. Someone in my social vicinity I interact quite often with is bound to a wheelchair. Of course it is a handicap for that person, but they didn't choose to have the disability. I don't even see how you can compare something you're forced in to a PUG you aren't forced to be a part of.

    That's kinda my point here, many people complain that raids are too hard, that the raiding community are a bunch of elitist zealouts and whatnot. All while insisting on raiding with pugs, which is basically raiding with a handicap.

    Or maybe they just aren't fun to them, because they dislike that type of content. I've pugged and raided with a guild myself. I'd still say that raids are unfun, not hard. The only hard part about raids is outside of raids. Finding the time, finding the right people etc..

    They clearly say that raids are way too hard and all the other things I said. I don't say that, they do.

    Yeah, they also clearly state that they just dislike raiding.

    So what is their problem? If they dont like raiding they shouldn't raid xD. What do they want then? Legendary armor from open world content? There is no other form of challanging content in PvE besides raids/fractals.

    Funny thing you said that, that is actually what they do, hence "the small audience they attract". But Anet for some reason still tries to push for that type of instanced content, now via Strikes.

    Raids and fractals aren't challenging content, just dance routines. PvP and WvW is where the challenge is :P

    Crazy Arena net listening to the players and taking them at their word when they say raids are too hard for them.

    They aren't actually listening to the players, just evaluating some of their metrics that show that only a small audience plays raids. Fractals seem to be in a healthier state.
    I don't think they've found the right conclusion though. I'm very sceptical of their decision to use SMs as a bridge to raids.

    I don't think its the right solution too. I think the obvious conclusion that some sort of bridge is needed is that the DPS difference between the average player and the good players is freaking massive. The right solution is adding challenge along the way so that people dont just roflstomp all the open world content with autoattacks.

    Barely anyone that I know of, raiders, casuals and midcore players alike, only autoattack. Arenanet is adding that "challenge along the way" via SMs.

    The massive 10x gap between players is most likely due to Arenanet comparing a median of an unbuffed player with bad gear to median of fullbuffed players in a raid situation with all the 10man buffs (I don't know who they compared to who, they never released that, only stating the 10x).

    Funnily enough I'm pretty sure trying to make the players "more skilled" isn't going to work. It didn't in WoW, they just elevated the skill floor by homogenizing.

    That said WoW has an easier way to bring up the skill floor, since the gear system is pretty standardized. People don't have to look at specific stats and think about if the gear will be better for them. iLVL does that for them, they just see green numbers and see that their dps goes up. It doesn't matter if the player is unskilled, he will always do a baseline of dps due to the gear, since they only have Tank/DPS/Heal gear. Similiar to how they are now going for Attack/Defense stats in Diablo 4.

    GW2 is another beast. I'd compare it to PoE in a stat-sense. There are so many stats that are just confusing to casual players. It doesn't help that at the end-game those stats all have the same values. Why should someone that didn't read through the stats know that Power/Precision/Ferocity would be the optimal way to play a Power based DPS character? Power/Vitality/Ferocity has the same values after all. They don't see their "green up arrow". Some just equip Power/Vit/Toughness and call it a day. GW2 is filled with noob traps like that. It also doesn't help that the boon system is such a huge balance problem, while WoWs buffs are pretty much just pre-buffs, something you don't actively have to manage, aside from heroism. Their rotations are also simpler if you compare it to something like condi renegade.

    TL;DR Adding challenge along the way will not increase player skill for the majority, just increase frustration, like in HoT. The cause is GW2's gearing and boon system.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
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  • Felipe.1807Felipe.1807 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The fact that the game was built around "play how you want" is big reason why people dont even bother with it...10 players instanced content is another, back in the day going to LFG to something like AC path 1, you would get a full group in seconds no matter the time of the day...trying for HotW or something least popular...Jesus, you could probably go in solo or 2 players, or whatever, allmost finish the whole dungeon and still not get a full group...Raids are just that but 10 times worst, you need to play on very specific times in order to find people to play with you...so if you have job, family, college, etc it can be quite hard to just impossible really...now Raids been for a while, you finally have time to play it and you start meet all these demands, specific builds and professions, with people checking your DPS and stuff and asking for Raid currencies, which you dont have it lol even my guild that used to extremelly friendly towards pugs at the old times with Dungeons and Fractals started to act toxic toward people that dont meet their demands....
    Also theres the fact that Raids kind of destroyed the balance of the game, turning sPvP into a mess and WvW even worst then allready was...trait rework and Elite specs, both which were made with Raids on mind, its the mark of the biggest decline in PvP...its gets to the point that people actually miss old cele meta, and that was bad.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Stalvros.9217 said:
    At least, that's just the statistics that we can see from gw2 efficiency? (Only less then 5% of the population that registered their API with the site has Legendary Insight?)

    29.989% of the 223,689 accounts tracked on gw2 efficiency have killed Vale Guardian.

    So the OP is wrong about Raids attracting small audience. We even had comments by the developers telling us that Raids exceeded their expectations in terms of popularity. But that was during Heart of Thorns, when the game had a more active overall population.

    The highest number of the Key of Adhasim is 6.094% and it does look bad, but we have to take into account that the active population is also much lower now

    It's not a problem with the population of Raids, it's a problem with the population of the game.

    6% of a smaller audience. So the raid 'community' is tiny.

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2020

    It will probably continue to go smaller, following the path of dungeon if continue to be left alone.
    PS: A friend(return player from core) came back recently, to checkout the changes in game. I hit a paused, when he asked me how to obtain Arah's dungeon skins.

    Players have difficulties entering the content, newer players doesn't even know about raids or how to start, without proper guidance. No groups running in LFG, similar to dungeons. With no group, insufficient numbers for a "group content" its difficult to fly. Can't or won't lead as first timer/inexperienced or to not deal with the pressure of leading.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:
    For me it's just a matter of time. Specifically, time to train rotation, and time to learn the encounter.

    I've yet to run my rotations with boons on the training golem, but I'm just not reaching the sort of numbers I should be. Sure, my gear isn't 100% done (missing higher-end infusions), but it's more than good enough for raiding, but I fall quite short of benchmarks. I'm sure with more sessions in the training arena can get me there, but I find it exceedingly boring and feel stung by the opportunity cost of all the other cool things I could be doing rather than beating up a golem. The problem with practicing in the other parts of the game world have to do with not having optimal comps, enemies dying too fast, etc.

    But if I get right down to it, everything I said above about "time to train" are just excuses. After all, I can just put in a bit more effort on the special forces golem and I'm sure I'd build the muscle memory to get it right. The real time problem I have is finding a block of time where I post my own LFG, enter a raid, and fail for hours (and somehow find 9 people to share those hours of failure with me). If I were still a college student and could burn a huge chunk of prime gaming hours on weekends to learn raids at my own pace with a like minded group, this wouldn't be a problem.

    I suspect that a lot of the other competent 305 mastery folks that I run into for fractals and dungeons are in a similar position.

    If you are EU, our guild does raid trainings more or less daily. Usually we start 20:00cet and raid takes 1.5h. We use sign up systwm in discord so we only expect you to show up for raids where you signed up.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • I tried raids then they came out with my guild. It was like a hour of failure evry Sunday. As for now I play alone and you really need a guild for raids especially with these "Vale Guardian. 500 Li 100 KP 95% Snowscrows Dps or Kick + Ban from all raids" kind of pub groups.

  • Are we not forgetting something really important ? Raids were fine at the start of HOT, when ya know they got updated etc. But 10 months for 2-4 easy bosses is not okey.

    We should stop caring about the type of player that spends alot of time at this game but has a very low skill lvl and yet still feel entitled. The real casuals dont give a kitten about balance and content, they wont post on any forums.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2020

    @DutchRiders.2871 said:
    Are we not forgetting something really important ? Raids were fine at the start of HOT, when ya know they got updated etc. But 10 months for 2-4 easy bosses is not okey.

    It was an illusion created by two factors - first was the fact it was a fresh, completely new content, and so many people wanted to try it out. Second was, obviously, legendary armor, that got many people interested, who otherwise would have stayed away from the content. Those both factors had a shortterm impact only, however. Most of the former players gave up very fast, either when newness wore out, or after they've seen this content is not what they're really interested in. The latter raided a bit more, but once they've got what they wanted, they left as well, as they never really cared about raids in the first place. Those things were never going to last, and they only obscured the real raid popularity.

    We should stop caring about the type of player that spends alot of time at this game but has a very low skill lvl and yet still feel entitled. The real casuals dont give a kitten about balance and content, they wont post on any forums.

    And yet those very players you want the devs to not care about are those whose (un) happiness can decide the success of GW2. The real hardcores simply can't keep this game afloat. There were never enough of them in the first place.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.