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Top 3 reasons why raids only attracted a small audience

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  • Zaklex.6308Zaklex.6308 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @HumanComplex.1648 said:
    It's really just the lack of difficulty scaling. Fixing that will add a bunch of players. Adding a bunch of players will solve your trinity shortages.

    No, it's not and won't add a bunch of players and fix the trinity problem(there is no trinity in this game). That's is like saying you're going to increase participation from 1% of the player base to 2%, the increase is so insignificant that it's not worth mentioning.

    Yes...no...maybe...what do you want, can't you see I'm busy saving the world...AGAIN!

  • Zok.4956Zok.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Loki.4871 said:
    Only killed the vale guardian, with guildmates; it took a few goes but it was fun, and we enjoyed the way we had to do something more than dps the snot out of something. That was about a year ago because due to work I've simply not been able to reliably commit to raiding with them.

    The big thing that kills raids for me is the community. As one person described a different game's raiding community: "They are the vegans of this game". I pop into the airship section to have a look at try the golem every nnow and again, and it seems like every group insists on the tokens you get from killing bosses, insist on the latest meta build... it's even worse than Kanaxai of the Deep or Domain of Anguish back in Guildwars 1. It feels like peak "No fun allowed", and while I won't argue for one moment you should be able to bumble up with any build and beat the boss first time, the raiding community's 'my way or be a pariah' is just frustrating.
    It takes me back to something Valve noted when talking about people leaving matches in Dota2: Players were leaving because they weren't enjoying themselves. If a player wasn't enjoying themselves, even if they were winning the match, they'd usually leave; players having fun would stay even if they were losing.

    I want to raid but I simply just don't want to deal with people who raid because of their behaviour.

    Raiders want competent players. They cannot know if you are or not. That's why they ask for certain amount of kill proofs. Trust me, if you were a raider you would ask yourself for kill proofs because there are too many incompetent players out there destroying your fun heavily.
    How to acquire more kill proofs? Join communities, training discord or lead your own group. Don't let others do the work for you. Be pro-active and you'll be fine within few weeks.

    I agree. But I also think that players that are new to raids face now a much bigger barrier than in the past.

    Back in the days when I started raiding, gw2-raids were new to a lot of players that raided and there were a lot of training-runs in the LFG. We learned together. And if we were low-manned in our guild-group, we filled up the slots of our training runs without any kill-proof requirements.

    But today, most raids are old and I guess that most players that raid, are experienced with the raids and do not want that their "normal" run becomes a training-run for some strangers. So new players that start now with raiding have a much harder time to find training runs via LFG, so they have to look for a guild, community etc. and make also commitments to that community, guild, etc.

    https://www.gw2gh.com/ - A GW2-Guild-Hall.
    Register and check your guild leaderboard to see who is the best in your guild and who finished achievements first.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Why do people feel like they should be able to draw the "lack of time" card to be extempt from grinding training groups? You are supposed to accept that they simply do not have the time to acquire their their starting kills and KPs that way. You are supposed to appreciate that they might even become an asset to your group in due time. As long as you put in the time and effort they lack to make all of this happen. You should be more than happy to struggle for a while and with quite a few kills while still teaching them. And all of that.

    Don't get me wrong. I am able to see their point of view. I might even be in the same boat if I were to start raiding in another game given my own limited playing hours. But that's the thing. This supposed lack of time is a universal issue rather than something unique to newbies. People might simply lack the extra time need to help out and train a newbie or two. People might not have the time to go through countless LFG pugs until they happen to get lucky with their members while attempting some harder kills.

    Just strikes me as a little ironic to have people insist so heavily on lacking time while they assume everyone else has unlimited playing hours. I mean, would they suddenly gain this free time if you allowed them into your group? Of course not. Silly to even ask. Would they be willing to forgo their own smooth and rather tightly timed clears in favour of helping out someone new if it meant no rewards or at least reduced rewards for weeks? I kind of doubt that.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2, 2020

    @Zok.4956 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Loki.4871 said:
    Only killed the vale guardian, with guildmates; it took a few goes but it was fun, and we enjoyed the way we had to do something more than dps the snot out of something. That was about a year ago because due to work I've simply not been able to reliably commit to raiding with them.

    The big thing that kills raids for me is the community. As one person described a different game's raiding community: "They are the vegans of this game". I pop into the airship section to have a look at try the golem every nnow and again, and it seems like every group insists on the tokens you get from killing bosses, insist on the latest meta build... it's even worse than Kanaxai of the Deep or Domain of Anguish back in Guildwars 1. It feels like peak "No fun allowed", and while I won't argue for one moment you should be able to bumble up with any build and beat the boss first time, the raiding community's 'my way or be a pariah' is just frustrating.
    It takes me back to something Valve noted when talking about people leaving matches in Dota2: Players were leaving because they weren't enjoying themselves. If a player wasn't enjoying themselves, even if they were winning the match, they'd usually leave; players having fun would stay even if they were losing.

    I want to raid but I simply just don't want to deal with people who raid because of their behaviour.

    Raiders want competent players. They cannot know if you are or not. That's why they ask for certain amount of kill proofs. Trust me, if you were a raider you would ask yourself for kill proofs because there are too many incompetent players out there destroying your fun heavily.
    How to acquire more kill proofs? Join communities, training discord or lead your own group. Don't let others do the work for you. Be pro-active and you'll be fine within few weeks.

    I agree. But I also think that players that are new to raids face now a much bigger barrier than in the past.

    Back in the days when I started raiding, gw2-raids were new to a lot of players that raided and there were a lot of training-runs in the LFG. We learned together. And if we were low-manned in our guild-group, we filled up the slots of our training runs without any kill-proof requirements.

    When I started raiding in HoT, it took us around 1 week to kill VG, with multiple evenings dedicated to practice and tries. There was no Snowcrows, CnD, arcdps, benchmarks or guides to read through. Everything had to be figured out alone.

    Today, there are raid trainings, benchmarks, guides, and a lot of hand holding for players who are interested in raiding. Guilds with raids of different skill level constantly are recruiting for new players to cover loss of players (which is a natural occurrence in raids for any MMO. People take breaks, quite, move to different squads, etc.). This fantasy that everyone was equally bad and thus it was easier is just that: fantasy.

    @Zok.4956 said:
    But today, most raids are old and I guess that most players that raid, are experienced with the raids and do not want that their "normal" run becomes a training-run for some strangers. So new players that start now with raiding have a much harder time to find training runs via LFG, so they have to look for a guild, community etc. and make also commitments to that community, guild, etc.

    New players start exactly where every single player started: at the beginning needing practice and understanding.

    The main difference now is: you have a ton of guide materials, practice runs (often with more experienced players to help out), boss videos, power creep of an additional expansion, etc.

    No, you can't join an experienced group just to get carried. But if you really want to raid, you can have a way easier start with a lot more help than "original" raiders ever had. This has remained true through the entire 4-5 years since HoT. Eventually, these "new" raiders become veteran themselves and some start assisting and helping the next generation of new raiders. I've lead a ton of trainings in the past, I've seen 2 different guilds go through the entire process of absolute beginner/inexperienced raiders with no success at VG slowly grow their kills per week and improve. They all had it way easier with all the material provided than gen1 raiders ever had, but all of them went through the exact same process in some way or another.

  • Zok.4956Zok.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zok.4956 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Loki.4871 said:
    Only killed the vale guardian, with guildmates; it took a few goes but it was fun, and we enjoyed the way we had to do something more than dps the snot out of something. That was about a year ago because due to work I've simply not been able to reliably commit to raiding with them.

    The big thing that kills raids for me is the community. As one person described a different game's raiding community: "They are the vegans of this game". I pop into the airship section to have a look at try the golem every nnow and again, and it seems like every group insists on the tokens you get from killing bosses, insist on the latest meta build... it's even worse than Kanaxai of the Deep or Domain of Anguish back in Guildwars 1. It feels like peak "No fun allowed", and while I won't argue for one moment you should be able to bumble up with any build and beat the boss first time, the raiding community's 'my way or be a pariah' is just frustrating.
    It takes me back to something Valve noted when talking about people leaving matches in Dota2: Players were leaving because they weren't enjoying themselves. If a player wasn't enjoying themselves, even if they were winning the match, they'd usually leave; players having fun would stay even if they were losing.

    I want to raid but I simply just don't want to deal with people who raid because of their behaviour.

    Raiders want competent players. They cannot know if you are or not. That's why they ask for certain amount of kill proofs. Trust me, if you were a raider you would ask yourself for kill proofs because there are too many incompetent players out there destroying your fun heavily.
    How to acquire more kill proofs? Join communities, training discord or lead your own group. Don't let others do the work for you. Be pro-active and you'll be fine within few weeks.

    I agree. But I also think that players that are new to raids face now a much bigger barrier than in the past.

    Back in the days when I started raiding, gw2-raids were new to a lot of players that raided and there were a lot of training-runs in the LFG. We learned together. And if we were low-manned in our guild-group, we filled up the slots of our training runs without any kill-proof requirements.

    When I started raiding in HoT, it took us around 1 week to kill VG, with multiple evenings dedicated to practice and tries.

    good for you. My group needed much longer until we made our first VG kill. But we could only raid at one evening per week because of RL.

    This fantasy that everyone was equally bad and thus it was easier is just that: fantasy.

    Of course, not everyone was equally bad. But just because you experienced it differently than others doesn't mean that the experience of others is just a fantasy.

    https://www.gw2gh.com/ - A GW2-Guild-Hall.
    Register and check your guild leaderboard to see who is the best in your guild and who finished achievements first.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2, 2020

    @Zok.4956 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zok.4956 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Loki.4871 said:
    Only killed the vale guardian, with guildmates; it took a few goes but it was fun, and we enjoyed the way we had to do something more than dps the snot out of something. That was about a year ago because due to work I've simply not been able to reliably commit to raiding with them.

    The big thing that kills raids for me is the community. As one person described a different game's raiding community: "They are the vegans of this game". I pop into the airship section to have a look at try the golem every nnow and again, and it seems like every group insists on the tokens you get from killing bosses, insist on the latest meta build... it's even worse than Kanaxai of the Deep or Domain of Anguish back in Guildwars 1. It feels like peak "No fun allowed", and while I won't argue for one moment you should be able to bumble up with any build and beat the boss first time, the raiding community's 'my way or be a pariah' is just frustrating.
    It takes me back to something Valve noted when talking about people leaving matches in Dota2: Players were leaving because they weren't enjoying themselves. If a player wasn't enjoying themselves, even if they were winning the match, they'd usually leave; players having fun would stay even if they were losing.

    I want to raid but I simply just don't want to deal with people who raid because of their behaviour.

    Raiders want competent players. They cannot know if you are or not. That's why they ask for certain amount of kill proofs. Trust me, if you were a raider you would ask yourself for kill proofs because there are too many incompetent players out there destroying your fun heavily.
    How to acquire more kill proofs? Join communities, training discord or lead your own group. Don't let others do the work for you. Be pro-active and you'll be fine within few weeks.

    I agree. But I also think that players that are new to raids face now a much bigger barrier than in the past.

    Back in the days when I started raiding, gw2-raids were new to a lot of players that raided and there were a lot of training-runs in the LFG. We learned together. And if we were low-manned in our guild-group, we filled up the slots of our training runs without any kill-proof requirements.

    When I started raiding in HoT, it took us around 1 week to kill VG, with multiple evenings dedicated to practice and tries.

    good for you. My group needed much longer until we made our first VG kill. But we could only raid at one evening per week because of RL.

    This fantasy that everyone was equally bad and thus it was easier is just that: fantasy.

    Of course, not everyone was equally bad. But just because you experienced it differently than others doesn't mean that the experience of others is just a fantasy.

    I didn't call other players experience fantasy. I'm calling this notion that everything was easier in the past a fantasy, because by simple reasoning of availability of guides, tools, and community, this can not be true.

    I'm not even getting into in-game features which accommodate players. There was no damage golem to practice on or make a judgement on how good ones performance was. There was no widespread damage meters or logs to look at how the tries progressed, which mechanics failed, which boons were present. It was guess work and observation and literally reading through the combat log individually and trying out different compositions and seeing how the bosses life changed per minute.

    Players today who want to raid can simply go to a website, get a build, read up on how to play the build, go to a golem if they so desire (fully solo) and get raid ready.

    Meta compositions are far more flexible. The first year of HoT it was mostly: play chrono, play druid or play one of these 1 or 2 damage dealers or else you won't get taken along because balance was terrible. Today, boonthief, alcrigrade, firebrand and dps benchmarks approximately 10k above the HoT average are available.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zok.4956 said:
    So new players that start now with raiding have a much harder time to find training runs via LFG, so they have to look for a guild, community etc. and make also commitments to that community, guild, etc.

    LFG should've always been used to fill some random last spots, not form full teams of randoms. But I guess the game still lacks an easier way to find like-minded individuals and guilds/communities. Outside advertising in map chat there is very little promotion inside the game, which means outside applications are used for the job, which shouldn't be the case.

  • Tman.6349Tman.6349 Member ✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    1- No forms of difficulty scaling.

    2- The way your professions were designed... https://massivelyop.com/2019/03/28/massively-overthinking-thoughts-on-the-holy-trinity-in-mmos/

    “Brianna Royce (@nbrianna, blog): Fun fact: I still remember when “holy trinity” meant tank, healer, and mezzer – the DPS players were a given, the warm bodies that filled out the rest of the group, and not part of the trinity back in the early pre-WoW days of MMO group content. The fact that this shifted over time really says all you need to know about how MMO class and combat design have changed, and not necessarily for the better.

    Don’t mistake me; I no longer believe we need or must respect a trinity of either type. But what I truly resent is the loss of class variation and combat flow that naturally accompanied the demise of the classic trinity, specifically the fact that crowd control, buffing, and debuffing classes have all but disappeared in the modern rush to make nearly everyone a damage-dealer, even the healers and tanks.

    As an example, I can still think of none better than City of Heroes, which offered all of the old trinity and new trinity class types (and then some) but made none of them actually mandatory to clear content. Yes, tanks and healers and CCers and buffers and debuffers and damage dealers all existed, but it was completely possible to get through the game with no healers, or all healers. With a scrapper tanking ahead of a fleet of corruptors. With a stalker and four controllers. With three bubblers and three tankers. Whatever. I don’t want to see strict trinity MMOs, but I’m even grumpier about the “everyone deeps” MMOs even more, especially when the end result is cluster**** combat where nobody ever has control over the fight. It didn’t have to be that way, but modernish devs keep reinventing the wheel, convinced they can do better. Maybe someday, they will, but so far, nah.”

    Note- that "cluster" comment was a link to the GW2 section on MOP.

    3- Combining number 1 + 2 ultimately created a toxic environment for instanced content that most people don't want to be part of.

    You totally forgot the main reason. The raid community itself. A bunch of people that would rather alienate people for quick rewards now than to actually invest in the growth of the gamemode they love so much. There's been steps to rectify that by a small number of helpful people recently. PvP has gone through this same thing and is left pointing fingers too and definitely don't need to point out www server stacking. Not saying Anet isn't amazing at making every single mistake possible, but the 'GW2 has the best community ever!' stuff is pretty much relegated to open world stuff and that's the reason they've tripled down on staying there. I mainly PvP and AP hunt, but have done most of wings 1-4 before my old guild fell apart a year ago or so. Been trying to get back into raids w/o much luck. Been trying to get into www for a month or so but am stuck on Kaineng and it's literally one of the worst experiences GW2 has to offer. Just my opinion on some of the fingers we have pointing back at ourselves.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tman.6349 said:
    You totally forgot the main reason. The raid community itself. A bunch of people that would rather alienate people for quick rewards now than to actually invest in the growth of the gamemode they love so much.

    Actually the raid community does invest in the growth of the game mode by making training runs and forming raid guilds. A random person on the internet that is just there for the quick rewards isn't an "investment" for the game mode. A person that becomes a part of a team/community is an "investment".

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    There is really just ONE reason raids aren't all that popular ... because it's not the kind of content that most of the people that play this game want to do.

    Yet they used to be popular enough to grow and we got more than enough confirmation that Raids in the game were successful. There are completely different reasons that Raids failed and have very little to do with what "most people that play this game want to do".

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    There is really just ONE reason raids aren't all that popular ... because it's not the kind of content that most of the people that play this game want to do.

    Yet they used to be popular enough to grow and we got more than enough confirmation that Raids in the game were successful. There are completely different reasons that Raids failed and have very little to do with what "most people that play this game want to do".

    Maybe at one time, that was true. Unfortunately, what was true before is irrelevant to what is NOW. I can gaurentee the surest way for any game dev to sink their own game is to ignore what most people in the game want to do. If you think content failure has nothing to do with that, then we can only disagree with each other.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    There is really just ONE reason raids aren't all that popular ... because it's not the kind of content that most of the people that play this game want to do.

    Yet they used to be popular enough to grow and we got more than enough confirmation that Raids in the game were successful. There are completely different reasons that Raids failed and have very little to do with what "most people that play this game want to do".

    Maybe at one time, that was true. Unfortunately, what was true before is irrelevant to what is NOW. I can gaurentee the surest way for any game dev to sink their own game is to ignore what most people in the game want to do. If you think content failure has nothing to do with that, then we can only disagree with each other.

    The surest way for any game developer to sink their game is to focus on a self-identified majority, especially for an MMORPG. Arenanet already figured that out, hopefully, as the exclusive focus on the living world wasn't working financially, they started 2020 with a strong emphasis on variety, which is the key word for a game's survival and growth. We'll see how it goes this entire year and if there are improvements to their revenue with this change.

  • DutchRiders.2871DutchRiders.2871 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @DutchRiders.2871 said:
    Are we not forgetting something really important ? Raids were fine at the start of HOT, when ya know they got updated etc. But 10 months for 2-4 easy bosses is not okey.

    It was an illusion created by two factors - first was the fact it was a fresh, completely new content, and so many people wanted to try it out. Second was, obviously, legendary armor, that got many people interested, who otherwise would have stayed away from the content. Those both factors had a shortterm impact only, however. Most of the former players gave up very fast, either when newness wore out, or after they've seen this content is not what they're really interested in. The latter raided a bit more, but once they've got what they wanted, they left as well, as they never really cared about raids in the first place. Those things were never going to last, and they only obscured the real raid popularity.

    We should stop caring about the type of player that spends alot of time at this game but has a very low skill lvl and yet still feel entitled. The real casuals dont give a kitten about balance and content, they wont post on any forums.

    And yet those very players you want the devs to not care about are those whose (un) happiness can decide the success of GW2. The real hardcores simply can't keep this game afloat. There were never enough of them in the first place.

    Its the real casuals that are the majority. By your logic we should make content for them. Not for players that spend 5hours + per week and post on forums.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2020

    @DutchRiders.2871 said:
    Its the real casuals that are the majority. By your logic we should make content for them. Not for players that spend 5hours + per week and post on forums.

    You do need to keep whales satisfied, but yes, any developer of a game such as GW2 ignores casuals at their own peril. Just don't think that casuals don't care about content, or about balance (especially if the end result of said balance is their class getting nerfed due to some raid/PvP/WvW concerns they do not even understand). HoT proved that casuals do care. They just usually do not bother to post anything, preferring instead to simply vote with their feet.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @DutchRiders.2871 said:
    Its the real casuals that are the majority. By your logic we should make content for them. Not for players that spend 5hours + per week and post on forums.

    You do need to keep whales satisfied, but yes, any developer of a game such as GW2 ignores casuals at their own peril. Just don't think that casuals don't care about content, or about balance (especially if the end result of said balance is their class getting nerfed due to some raid/PvP/WvW concerns they do not even understand). HoT proved that casuals do care. They just usually do not bother to post anything, preferring instead to simply vote with their feet.

    This also explains why you can't just focus on this majority. Because balance patches need to happen regardless off the existence of the competitive modes or not.

    And as you said you need to keep the whales playing, who can be part of any group.

    On top of the diminishing returns of making content for only 1 type of player.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2020

    @yann.1946 said:
    This also explains why you can't just focus on this majority. Because balance patches need to happen regardless off the existence of the competitive modes or not.

    Indeed. It's just that you can't balance the game only for the small minority while completely ignoring the impact it will have on the rest of the content, assuming the silent majority won't care. Because they will care.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    Raiders want competent players. They cannot know if you are or not. That's why they ask for certain amount of kill proofs. Trust me, if you were a raider you would ask yourself for kill proofs because there are too many incompetent players out there destroying your fun heavily.
    How to acquire more kill proofs? Join communities, training discord or lead your own group. Don't let others do the work for you. Be pro-active and you'll be fine within few weeks.

    This can be another reason for raids to be so unpopular for many players. This game has been advertised and sold as a casual friendly game. This is one of the reasons many of us are here. And after a while ... not me, the interested player, feel that I must become better. In my own rhithm/speed. NO! To be able to complete a part of the content I must not only overcome the intentions of the developers (contradicting their initial statements/intentions) to make that content to be completed only by few. I have to face what raiders want. WHAT?

    This calls for the answer of "make your own squad and try how many times you want, lazy casual (or toxic casual - I saw this too)". Well, this brings the main reason (in my opinion) for the actual "love" for raids: the fact that this is a 10 man instanced content. Speaking for myself only - i never felt discouraged by a wipe (or two or three) in fractals. Why? Because I knew that the group will fill very fast. And we can try again. For the raids ... BRRR !

    For the raid I must put together 10 random persons having the same daily schedule and the desire to spend all the play time for that day trying to beat the raid. So, on top of the difficulty of the raid, you should "beat" a social component too.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    There is really just ONE reason raids aren't all that popular ... because it's not the kind of content that most of the people that play this game want to do.

    Yet they used to be popular enough to grow and we got more than enough confirmation that Raids in the game were successful. There are completely different reasons that Raids failed and have very little to do with what "most people that play this game want to do".

    Maybe at one time, that was true. Unfortunately, what was true before is irrelevant to what is NOW. I can gaurentee the surest way for any game dev to sink their own game is to ignore what most people in the game want to do. If you think content failure has nothing to do with that, then we can only disagree with each other.

    The surest way for any game developer to sink their game is to focus on a self-identified majority, especially for an MMORPG.

    Maybe ... but there isn't any reason to wax theoretical here. What I said is true AND relevant to the situation NOW. A game that caters to fractions of it's population with various kinds of content is doomed compared to a game that caters to what most of it's population want. Anet doesn't need to worry about whatever self-identification you are referring to ... they know what people are participating in what content and they know what money those people are spending on the game as well. Anet has what they need to determine the ROI based on content categories ... and indications are that it's NOT raids.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    This also explains why you can't just focus on this majority. Because balance patches need to happen regardless off the existence of the competitive modes or not.

    Indeed. It's just that you can't balance the game only for the small minority while completely ignoring the impact it will have on the rest of the content, assuming the silent majority won't care. Because they will care.

    Yes and no. I personally believe the feel of a class is more important for a casual then the actual numbers (they go together a little bit tho.)

    Their also a continuum if states between balancing for casuals and neglecting the Hardcore and vice versa.

    I personally just hope the logical fallacies about the use of the population people identify as stop. This game needs both types of players to survive anyway.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    This can be another reason for raids to be so unpopular for many players. This game has been advertised and sold as a casual friendly game. This is one of the reasons many of us are here. And after a while ... not me, the interested player, feel that I must become better. In my own rhithm/speed. NO! To be able to complete a part of the content I must not only overcome the intentions of the developers (contradicting their initial statements/intentions) to make that content to be completed only by few. I have to face what raiders want. WHAT?

    Dungeons were in the release and catered towards hardcore players even if they failed at that. this game was never advertised as "only for casuals".

    For the raid I must put together 10 random persons having the same daily schedule and the desire to spend all the play time for that day trying to beat the raid. So, on top of the difficulty of the raid, you should "beat" a social component too.

    I had no time on mondays/tuesdays for the majority of the year so i pugged most of it. you dont need to do all in one go. 1h per wing is usually more than enough.

    raids fail at multiple things which makes them way harder than they should be. no reason to do them more then once a week means dead lfg for half the week. dragonstand is repeatable, braindead and gives more g/h.
    no reason to bring new players. could be a mentor boost if a new player is there.
    rewards are just bad. only reason to do them is fun compared to dragonstand farm. how many players are still farming paladawan? these maps are not popular because everyone enjoys them. raiders have done raids literally hundreds of times at this point with one release a year max. open world population would look the same with that release schedule. simple gold reward should not have a lockout.

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2020
    1. Content is too hard for the masses.
    2. The population that does raids is beyond toxic and elitist.
    3. The rewards are not equal to the content.

    Not rocket science..

    On a side note most modern customers do not have time to spend hours in these things failing over and over..

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2020

    @Dante.1508 said:
    1. Content is too hard for the masses.

    The content is so easy that everything can be pugged. some bosses have world boss difficulty.

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭

    More actually, how the content is delivered etc. When someone new ask what's there to do in GW2? What's there to keep them playing/end game? Open world and WvW will be on the table, since its a mmo group contents will first be mentioned (unlikely will mention achievement grinding or any solo self-interest as first choice). Fractals might or might not be mentioned, but inevitable be introduced as a PvE content. Other contents might be mentioned or omitted.

    Dungeons might be omitted or mentioned with a hint its abandoned and Fractals will be introduced as alternative. Thus, new players will either know about dungeon existence or not at all. Eitherway, access will prove to be difficult. The same rule applies for all contents, for Raid and all.

    Eg. If a player was introduced Raid or let known as part of the end content, imo it's not hard to get the player into raid with proper guidance or an existing raid squad ready to accept. Here, players won't get map advertising LFG for raids/dungeons etc.

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2020

    Imo the 3 reasons and missing.

    1) Branding; Promoting or advertising the content.

    2) Content Enviroment(?) - Access, tutorial and adds value doing it (reward, story, learn mechanics depth etc something worthwhile to repeat and play)

    3) Update - New content to keep it fresh, improving(eg. new mechanics) and updating over time(balance, bug fixing even for older contents).

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    Dungeons were in the release and catered towards hardcore players even if they failed at that. this game was never advertised as "only for casuals".

    Dungeons were advertized as hard content. The most difficult content at that time. Still, I don't remember any dev declaration that the dungeons are designed with the intentions to be NOT possible to be completed by the majority of the players. Can you show me that I'm wrong?

    And I said "advertized as a casual friendly game". I never said the game was advertized "only for casuals". Please pay atention.

    I had no time on mondays/tuesdays for the majority of the year so i pugged most of it. you dont need to do all in one go. 1h per wing is usually more than enough.

    This is a matter of how you look at that 1 hour. Maybe not all the players are as skilfull as you to complete a wing in 1 hour. Maybe at the end of that hour some players will score zero wins. In my case, if I spend that 1 hour trying to beat the raids the activity will turn from "playing GW2 for fun" to "my only activity when I log In - to raid one hour". When playing GW2 I can play a lot of different content - even in one hour you can play several pieces of content. By turning all my time into a raiding activity, I think I will quit very fast.

    So, maybe for you this only activity is enough. For me it is not - I prefer to "browse" through the game rather than to focus on a single aspect. And "raiding only" - as you suggest means (for me at least) an excesive focus on one aspect.

  • @Swagger.1459 said:
    3- Combining number 1 + 2 ultimately created a toxic environment for instanced content that most people don't want to be part of.

    I'd have to say this is the biggest reason for us. It started back with dungeon in 2013 when we tried our first time and it left a bad taste in our mouths that we now avoid that kind of content with a passion. It's still prevalent today though less toxic it comes now in the form of competitive PvE players leaving the group causing longer wait times IF it even forms. Or Group forms runs through fails and breaks apart. They are just two different styles of play that don't mix well!

    PvE Elite = Pro player, usually 1 prof know inside and out with variant builds and gear, faster PC systems & Bandwidth, typically younger (could be wrong just seems it?), not willing to stick around, share or teach.

    PvE Average = Patient, willing to try again multiple times (remember LWS2 Achievs?), plays all or most profs, usually ≤ some ascended, 1 or 2 build/toon, often or sometimes Min. PC specs, slower bandwidth, Older & slower (not that all are!) willing to learn, share and be taught.

    Sure you can pick that apart if you want to go down that road.

    The other MAJOR issue not mentioned is the Distraction Factor! That's a huge one for us also.

  • @Jayden Reese.9542 said:
    Then don't be a part of it? Why does it bother you that something you don't want to do is in GW2?

    Because they attach the shinies to them! Why can't we have the same shinies earned w/o Strike Missions, Raids, PvP, WvW, etc..? Why can't I get the same reward for say killing 10000 World Bosses!? Or 2500 Bounties or 7k Champions? Why doesn't PvE have that? Just like other game modes. Other game modes run in do the story then load up a reward track and rinse repeat until you get all your shinies. Why can't PvE have those same rewards for doing the same thing over and over? That's all we do do! Story > Map > Events > Meta > Achievements > repeat.

    Welp, that's off my chest not like it'll happen but just say'n. Look at it from both sides not just the one ou play, I' don't have a ton of rank but I do play all 3 game modes

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Seth Moonshadow.2710 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    3- Combining number 1 + 2 ultimately created a toxic environment for instanced content that most people don't want to be part of.

    I'd have to say this is the biggest reason for us. It started back with dungeon in 2013 when we tried our first time and it left a bad taste in our mouths that we now avoid that kind of content with a passion. It's still prevalent today though less toxic it comes now in the form of competitive PvE players leaving the group causing longer wait times IF it even forms. Or Group forms runs through fails and breaks apart. They are just two different styles of play that don't mix well!

    PvE Elite = Pro player, usually 1 prof know inside and out with variant builds and gear, faster PC systems & Bandwidth, typically younger (could be wrong just seems it?), not willing to stick around, share or teach.

    PvE Average = Patient, willing to try again multiple times (remember LWS2 Achievs?), plays all or most profs, usually ≤ some ascended, 1 or 2 build/toon, often or sometimes Min. PC specs, slower bandwidth, Older & slower (not that all are!) willing to learn, share and be taught.

    Sure you can pick that apart if you want to go down that road.

    The other MAJOR issue not mentioned is the Distraction Factor! That's a huge one for us also.

    Honestly I think this dichotomy you wrote is the biggest problem for raids.
    Mostly because people believe this to be true while it is demonstrably false.

    Their are lots of training guilds willen to teach, and a mayor parts of the average community don't care about teaching other players at all.

    On the note of rewards, why do you think you can't get pvp rewards in pve etc. No gift of battle outside of wvw etc.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Maybe ... but there isn't any reason to wax theoretical here. What I said is true AND relevant to the situation NOW. A game that caters to fractions of it's population with various kinds of content is doomed compared to a game that caters to what most of it's population want. Anet doesn't need to worry about whatever self-identification you are referring to ... they know what people are participating in what content and they know what money those people are spending on the game as well. Anet has what they need to determine the ROI based on content categories ... and indications are that it's NOT raids.

    A game "that caters to fractions of it's population with various kinds of content" will survive and prosper compared to a game that tries to cater to what "most of its population want". That's how mmorpgs work, they cater to lots of different types of players. We'll see what the recent change in attitude, and giving more varied content, will result in, as in Q4 2019 they released content for a single type of player. Now they spread more. We'll all be here to discuss the Q1 2020 and Q2 2020 results.

    That's an easy statement to make but that's not how service industries work and demonstrates a significant lack of business acumen on your part. For instance, if what you said was true, we would have McDonald's sushi, we would have budget-priced Ferrarri's, we would have lots things that don't exist just because 'catering to the fringe' would be an awesome idea ... but we don't, so I know it's not ... and that's not different here. Raids aren't popular compared to other content. The costs to maintain and design raids has to be REALLY low and the revenues earned per raid minute played have to be REALLY high compared to other content if they are so poorly attended to keep development of them. I'm willing to bet that's not the case.

    The fact is that generally, I'm right. If a service provider doesn't focus on the customers that make it successful at the expense of trying appeal to the fringe, that's a bad way to do business. And that's not just MMO's ... that's ANY service industry. Service providers that know their customers and carve out their market by consistently providing those customers what they want have a solid foundation to expand their customer base and try other things. You see that happen all the time in other service industries and there isn't anything unique about game provision or the people that patronize game providers to make that untrue. Anet hasn't done that and the popularity of raids is just one of many indicators of it.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Maybe ... but there isn't any reason to wax theoretical here. What I said is true AND relevant to the situation NOW. A game that caters to fractions of it's population with various kinds of content is doomed compared to a game that caters to what most of it's population want. Anet doesn't need to worry about whatever self-identification you are referring to ... they know what people are participating in what content and they know what money those people are spending on the game as well. Anet has what they need to determine the ROI based on content categories ... and indications are that it's NOT raids.

    A game "that caters to fractions of it's population with various kinds of content" will survive and prosper compared to a game that tries to cater to what "most of its population want". That's how mmorpgs work, they cater to lots of different types of players. We'll see what the recent change in attitude, and giving more varied content, will result in, as in Q4 2019 they released content for a single type of player. Now they spread more. We'll all be here to discuss the Q1 2020 and Q2 2020 results.

    That's an easy statement to make but that's not how service industries work and demonstrates a significant lack of business acumen on your part. For instance, if what you said was true, we would have McDonald's sushi, we would have budget-priced Ferrarri's, we would have lots things that don't exist just because 'catering to the fringe' would be an awesome idea ... but we don't, so I know it's not ... and that's not different here. Raids aren't popular compared to other content. The costs to maintain and design raids has to be REALLY low and the revenues earned per raid minute played have to be REALLY high compared to other content if they are so poorly attended to keep development of them. I'm willing to bet that's not the case.

    The fact is that generally, I'm right. If a service provider doesn't focus on the customers that make it successful at the expense of trying appeal to the fringe, that's a bad way to do business. And that's not just MMO's ... that's ANY service industry. Service providers that know their customers and carve out their market by consistently providing those customers what they want have a solid foundation to expand their customer base and try other things. You see that happen all the time in other service industries and there isn't anything unique about game provision or the people that patronize game providers to make that untrue. Anet hasn't done that and the popularity of raids is just one of many indicators of it.

    That's some very big glossing everything together under barely an argument.

    Also, you are wrong. For most industries it absolutely makes sense to cater to the fringe group. That's why there is ultra expensive cars, ships and other luxury products.

    No, I'm right because those companies DON'T make ultra cheap cars, ships and budget products that would caters to fringe groups outside the core customers they serve. They cater to specific customers in their markets. That's what we are talking about here. How a company serves it's customers, not how a whole market is served by many different companies.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • JTGuevara.9018JTGuevara.9018 Member ✭✭✭

    I think we all deep down know the REAL reason why raids attract a small audience and will KEEP attracting that small audience are:

    1. Barrier of entry------Getting 10-20 whatever people on in voice comms is a logistic and organizational challenge. They all have to be on simultaneously and in the same timezone and keep their mouths shut enough while raids and such mechanics are being explained. Getting new players in is also a great challenge.
    2. Time constraints------These things take a while!
    3. Min-max culture------Raids inherently encourage a min-max culture where eventually people will figure out and dissect the entire encounter enough where there are optimal builds and allows for people to exclude others if they don't reach near optimal numbers or even reliable kills and clears. I KNOW people here will say otherwise, but that is the reality of it. I witnessed it firsthand in my guild.
    4. Raids eventually become farmable at some point------ As with all endgame pve content, eventually it will become streamlined enough to where it becomes easy to farm with the "right" group. After that, there's really nothing more to experience. Raids just become stale after that point.
    5. The juice isn't worth the squeeze-----Really the only reason to raid is: rewards. Social experience, enjoyment? I doubt it. I truly doubt that most people enjoy it enough to do it constantly, even with friends. The fact of the matter is: you need 10 friends! Also, there is a such a thing as "burnout" after all.

    My source for all this is: myself. I raided for a couple of months in my guild. I learned the encounters, practiced golem rotations, looked at guides before I began. I kept my mouth shut on the discord channels and did my best to help groups. I did all that the community said I needed to do. I killed some bosses: Kairn, VG, Slothasor, Gorse, Samarog, Bandits, Overseer, got the killproofs. It was...ok at times...only because it was something new to learn. Also, because there was really nothing else to look forward to in gw2. (spvp/wvw update hadn't come yet) Once the spvp/wvw update came, I quit raiding for good and went straight into pvp again. Endgame pve became stale and boring, as with all MMO endgame pve at some point.

    Also, this min-max culture is infecting fractals, even in lower tiers. THAT to me is unacceptable. Then again, I suppose that's par for the course when pve has become the focus of gw2 for so many years, at pvp's expense. I lament for MMOs that always chase the WoW model of attracting endgame pvers. That's a losing game.

  • Melech.4308Melech.4308 Member ✭✭✭

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    5. The juice isn't worth the squeeze-----Really the only reason to raid is: rewards. Social experience, enjoyment? I doubt it. I truly doubt that most people enjoy it enough to do it constantly, even with friends. The fact of the matter is: you need 10 friends! Also, there is a such a thing as "burnout" after all.

    I don't know where you got that 5th reason but I started doing raids to do one thing and one thing only: Legendary Armour. Eventually I began to enjoy it, even when I go on PUGS. When I got my first leggy armour, I decided I wanted to get another set after that.

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2020

    @Melech.4308 said:

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    5. The juice isn't worth the squeeze-----Really the only reason to raid is: rewards. Social experience, enjoyment? I doubt it. I truly doubt that most people enjoy it enough to do it constantly, even with friends. The fact of the matter is: you need 10 friends! Also, there is a such a thing as "burnout" after all.

    I don't know where you got that 5th reason but I started doing raids to do one thing and one thing only: Legendary Armour. Eventually I began to enjoy it, even when I go on PUGS. When I got my first leggy armour, I decided I wanted to get another set after that.

    You had an interest, and found players to align with or have the same interest to work together.

    JTGuevara.9018 had an interest, but not what's expected and lost interest(due to various reasons, and it's normal).

    There is social enjoyment, playing with friends etc (in PvP sense, the feeling climbing 2v2 with a partner, compared to strangers randomly each match gives a different vibes). It's a group content and it might not be for everyone. Eg. Not everyone is interested in the story content, open world bosses,PvP, fractals, raids etc which is part of the game(will have or find justifications for it). It all requires updates over time. or end up like Dungeons, pass open world maps and contents :anguished:

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Maybe ... but there isn't any reason to wax theoretical here. What I said is true AND relevant to the situation NOW. A game that caters to fractions of it's population with various kinds of content is doomed compared to a game that caters to what most of it's population want. Anet doesn't need to worry about whatever self-identification you are referring to ... they know what people are participating in what content and they know what money those people are spending on the game as well. Anet has what they need to determine the ROI based on content categories ... and indications are that it's NOT raids.

    A game "that caters to fractions of it's population with various kinds of content" will survive and prosper compared to a game that tries to cater to what "most of its population want". That's how mmorpgs work, they cater to lots of different types of players. We'll see what the recent change in attitude, and giving more varied content, will result in, as in Q4 2019 they released content for a single type of player. Now they spread more. We'll all be here to discuss the Q1 2020 and Q2 2020 results.

    That's an easy statement to make but that's not how service industries work and demonstrates a significant lack of business acumen on your part. For instance, if what you said was true, we would have McDonald's sushi, we would have budget-priced Ferrarri's, we would have lots things that don't exist just because 'catering to the fringe' would be an awesome idea ... but we don't, so I know it's not ... and that's not different here. Raids aren't popular compared to other content. The costs to maintain and design raids has to be REALLY low and the revenues earned per raid minute played have to be REALLY high compared to other content if they are so poorly attended to keep development of them. I'm willing to bet that's not the case.

    The fact is that generally, I'm right. If a service provider doesn't focus on the customers that make it successful at the expense of trying appeal to the fringe, that's a bad way to do business. And that's not just MMO's ... that's ANY service industry. Service providers that know their customers and carve out their market by consistently providing those customers what they want have a solid foundation to expand their customer base and try other things. You see that happen all the time in other service industries and there isn't anything unique about game provision or the people that patronize game providers to make that untrue. Anet hasn't done that and the popularity of raids is just one of many indicators of it.

    That's some very big glossing everything together under barely an argument.

    Also, you are wrong. For most industries it absolutely makes sense to cater to the fringe group. That's why there is ultra expensive cars, ships and other luxury products.

    No, I'm right because those companies DON'T make ultra cheap cars, ships and budget products that would caters to fringe groups outside the core customers they serve. They cater to specific customers in their markets. That's what we are talking about here. How a company serves it's customers, not how a whole market is served by many different companies.

    No, you are wrong. Ferrari, as per your example, if part of Fiat Chrysler Automobiles. Ferrai IS the company serving the fringe group in the Automobile market.

    The reason they don't make cheap cars is because those mainstream customers are served by other parts of the Fiat group.

  • Seth Moonshadow.2710Seth Moonshadow.2710 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2020

    @yann.1946 said:
    Honestly I think this dichotomy you wrote is the biggest problem for raids.
    Mostly because people believe this to be true while it is demonstrably false.

    Their are lots of training guilds willen to teach, and a mayor parts of the average community don't care about teaching other players at all.

    On the note of rewards, why do you think you can't get pvp rewards in pve etc. No gift of battle outside of wvw etc.

    So you admit the problem exists?!
    The forums contain the opinions of mine and a great many others as to why we feel this way. Mine is just one but it's exactly the experiences we've had. So there is no "believe" needed. It's cold hard truth from actual game play. I even have some videos showing it but I can't share them.

    Yes, there absolutely are guilds dedicate to training for raids / strike missions. Been there done that. I cannot say it was a totally bad experience but I can say that when it came time, after having built a dedicated team over the course of a week with extra time on the weekend, to actually go for the kill. It went NOTHING like the 5 "training's" before hand so we never actual made a single defeat. Kinda disheartening. Again this is just our experiences. Others may have had better or even worse. Still was NOT worth the time we put into it!

    So I get that that comment is a bit vague. It's essential venting that the AP is split between modes rather than being able to gain it all from one mode. Also the point is as I have posted on another forum for Strike Missions. That is that we have lost the "option" of completing the Story achievements from strike missions and now are required to IF we CHOOSE (and many do!! Like myself. In fact this is the first Story Journal I haven't finished.) to finish the story achievements to do strike missions. That comes with a multitude of other problems. Though, it does comply with Player Autonomy.....so it's apparently were they are going moving forward. Never mind the "we want positive player interactions" Cuz that will not take place with two groups going after 2 separate goals in the same content! For example, this Monday you might go for Fraenir of Jormag for the weekly rewards/hope at rare chest drop. While we will be going in it for the achievements. All 3 achievements promote some party members focusing on other things than actually wining. THAT's not going to make others happy and groups have disbursed because of it. So, tell me. Wouldn't you be complaining if the role was reversed? I see your side of it, you want more players playing your content (at least that's my thought?). But if you want that there is a saying "beggars can't be choosers".

    In the end we all want the same thing. To play the game and get shinies from the game mode we enjoy (and have fun at it). So why can't we?

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Seth Moonshadow.2710 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    Honestly I think this dichotomy you wrote is the biggest problem for raids.
    Mostly because people believe this to be true while it is demonstrably false.

    Their are lots of training guilds willen to teach, and a mayor parts of the average community don't care about teaching other players at all.

    On the note of rewards, why do you think you can't get pvp rewards in pve etc. No gift of battle outside of wvw etc.

    So you admit the problem exists?!

    I admit the perception of the problem exist.

    The forums contain the opinions of mine and a great many others as to why we feel this way. Mine is just one but it's exactly the experiences we've had. So there is no "believe" needed. It's cold hard truth from actual game play. I even have some videos showing it but I can't share them.

    Let's talk about conformation bias. Quite a few people even in this forum have an already setmindset of what the raid community looks like. So the first time they encounter toxicity, their reaction becomes. See raiders are toxic etc. While this is demonstrably false. (ofcourse their are some toxic players, but thats just a consequence of having a big enough group.)

    Yes, there absolutely are guilds dedicate to training for raids / strike missions. Been there done that. I cannot say it was a totally bad experience but I can say that when it came time, after having built a dedicated team over the course of a week with extra time on the weekend, to actually go for the kill. It went NOTHING like the 5 "training's" before hand so we never actual made a single defeat. Kinda disheartening. Again this is just our experiences. Others may have had better or even worse. Still was NOT worth the time we put into it!

    It was not worth the time for you. But that's because you might not be the target audience of the mode. The most fun I had last month was wiping on the jormag strike for over an hour while talking with a guildie of discord.

    So I get that that comment is a bit vague. It's essential venting that the AP is split between modes rather than being able to gain it all from one mode. Also the point is as I have posted on another forum for Strike Missions. That is that we have lost the "option" of completing the Story achievements from strike missions and now are required to IF we CHOOSE (and many do!! Like myself. In fact this is the first Story Journal I haven't finished.) to finish the story achievements to do strike missions. That comes with a multitude of other problems. Though, it does comply with Player Autonomy.....so it's apparently were they are going moving forward. Never mind the "we want positive player interactions" Cuz that will not take place with two groups going after 2 separate goals in the same content! For example, this Monday you might go for Fraenir of Jormag for the weekly rewards/hope at rare chest drop. While we will be going in it for the achievements. All 3 achievements promote some party members focusing on other things than actually wining. THAT's not going to make others happy and groups have disbursed because of it. So, tell me. Wouldn't you be complaining if the role was reversed? I see your side of it, you want more players playing your content (at least that's my thought?). But if you want that there is a saying "beggars can't be choosers".

    Personally I want people to experience as much from the game as possible. Atm I'm not raiding or doing strikes, but am doing wvw for the new skin. That way I keep my exp as fresh as possible.

    In the end we all want the same thing. To play the game and get shinies from the game mode we enjoy (and have fun at it). So why can't we?

    I personally don't think that giving access to all shines etc by playing just one gamemode/part of a game mode is a hood thing.

    Because it's on average more fun for the player and better for the company to nudge people into game modes they are unfamiliar with then to let them bore out from doing the same thing over and over.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    For instance, if what you said was true, we would have McDonald's sushi, we would have budget-priced Ferrarri's, we would have lots things that don't exist just because 'catering to the fringe' would be an awesome idea ... but we don't, so I know it's not ... and that's not different here. Raids aren't popular compared to other content.

    It's the other way around because you forgot that Arenanet was already making varied content, until they went inconsistent (remember that word?) in Q4 2019. If what you say is true then McDonald's would see which specific burger sells more than the others and only make that one. Also it's like Ferrari seeing which model is selling the most/is most popular and stop manufacturing all others. If McDonald's or Ferrari worked on your popularity idea they'd both go bankrupt very quickly. Fortunately those running the businesses have a good understanding of markets and keep varied offerings

    If a service provider doesn't focus on the customers that make it successful at the expense of trying appeal to the fringe, that's a bad way to do business.

    No, that's the good way to do business. Notice how a good business offer variety, that's the key word here. The more varied the offerings, the better the results.

    Service providers that know their customers and carve out their market by consistently providing those customers what they want have a solid foundation to expand their customer base and try other things.

    Well since they stopped releasing anything but open world content in Q4 2019 their revenue tanked, so maybe the one that doesn't know what the customers of this game want is... you? As I said, now that Arenanet went back to being consistent we'll see the results.

    No, I'm right because those companies DON'T make ultra cheap cars, ships and budget products that would caters to fringe groups outside the core customers they serve. They cater to specific customers in their markets. That's what we are talking about here. How a company serves it's customers, not how a whole market is served by many different companies.

    Again you are making the wrong argument. We are talking about a company that was ALREADY making ultra cheap cars and expensive cars, a company that was already offering burgers and sushi and suddenly decided to to scrap one part of their company to focus on the other. Here I thought that inconsistency is a problem, but clearly it's a problem only when it fits your agenda.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @Seth Moonshadow.2710 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    Honestly I think this dichotomy you wrote is the biggest problem for raids.
    Mostly because people believe this to be true while it is demonstrably false.

    Their are lots of training guilds willen to teach, and a mayor parts of the average community don't care about teaching other players at all.

    On the note of rewards, why do you think you can't get pvp rewards in pve etc. No gift of battle outside of wvw etc.

    So you admit the problem exists?!
    The forums contain the opinions of mine and a great many others as to why we feel this way. Mine is just one but it's exactly the experiences we've had. So there is no "believe" needed. It's cold hard truth from actual game play. I even have some videos showing it but I can't share them.

    Yes, there absolutely are guilds dedicate to training for raids / strike missions. Been there done that. I cannot say it was a totally bad experience but I can say that when it came time, after having built a dedicated team over the course of a week with extra time on the weekend, to actually go for the kill. It went NOTHING like the 5 "training's" before hand so we never actual made a single defeat. Kinda disheartening. Again this is just our experiences. Others may have had better or even worse. Still was NOT worth the time we put into it!

    So I get that that comment is a bit vague. It's essential venting that the AP is split between modes rather than being able to gain it all from one mode. Also the point is as I have posted on another forum for Strike Missions. That is that we have lost the "option" of completing the Story achievements from strike missions and now are required to IF we CHOOSE (and many do!! Like myself. In fact this is the first Story Journal I haven't finished.) to finish the story achievements to do strike missions. That comes with a multitude of other problems. Though, it does comply with Player Autonomy.....so it's apparently were they are going moving forward. Never mind the "we want positive player interactions" Cuz that will not take place with two groups going after 2 separate goals in the same content! For example, this Monday you might go for Fraenir of Jormag for the weekly rewards/hope at rare chest drop. While we will be going in it for the achievements. All 3 achievements promote some party members focusing on other things than actually wining. THAT's not going to make others happy and groups have disbursed because of it. So, tell me. Wouldn't you be complaining if the role was reversed? I see your side of it, you want more players playing your content (at least that's my thought?). But if you want that there is a saying "beggars can't be choosers".

    In the end we all want the same thing. To play the game and get shinies from the game mode we enjoy (and have fun at it). So why can't we?

    If you trained 5 times on a boss and werent able to get the kill, you either started on soulless horror or the group needs to do easier instance like t1 fractals or strikes to get used to dodging and positioning. None of the first bosses minus SH are hard enough that you cant kill them after practicing that long if you come prepared.

  • Zok.4956Zok.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    A game that caters to fractions of it's population with various kinds of content is doomed compared to a game that caters to what most of it's population want. Anet doesn't need to worry about whatever self-identification you are referring to ... they know what people are participating in what content and they know what money those people are spending on the game as well. Anet has what they need to determine the ROI based on content categories ... and indications are that it's NOT raids.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    A game "that caters to fractions of it's population with various kinds of content" will survive and prosper compared to a game that tries to cater to what "most of its population want". That's how mmorpgs work, they cater to lots of different types of players.

    I think both of you are correct in some parts and also wrong in some parts. :)

    One of the core devs that worked on GW1 and GW2 and left Anet and founded another studio wrote somewhere, that some of the lessons he learned from GW2 was, that it was not a good idea to make so much different game modes in one game. Because you will never have enough ressources in the company to support all game modes equally and as a result there will always be players in the game that are unhappy, because they feel that their game mode is not supported anymore.

    When a new company starts it is usually a good strategy to focus only on one small part of the market and customer base and become the leader in this small area. And if you are successful you make money and the company can grow and can extend to other market areas and customer groups.

    When a company, that is active in a lot of different market areas, is not successful (for whatever reasons) anymore, it usually shrinks and focusses only on its core market and core competencies until it is stable again and makes money again. And then it can try to grow again into other markets.

    So, what does this mean for the actual situation with Anet and GW2? We actually have (if we ignore buying the PoF expansion, which is B2P) now a kind of F2P game that makes revenue from gem sales from the gemstore. As a company, Anet MUST focus on revenue and profit, or the company will not survive.

    So they have to focus on the part of the population, that regularly buys gems with real money. They have to increase this part of the population and also have to increase how much real money in average every player of this population spends for the game.

    This means that players, that have a lot of gold (because they play the game for a long time or because they are efficient in making gold), and can convert gold into GEMs, do not create directly any revenue for Anet. But having this kind of players (and content for them) in the game can attract other players, that actually are spending real money for GEMs.

    So, which players/content are actually making the most money for Anet?
    I have no clue, but I guess it is more complicated than we all think. :)

    https://www.gw2gh.com/ - A GW2-Guild-Hall.
    Register and check your guild leaderboard to see who is the best in your guild and who finished achievements first.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zok.4956 said:
    But having this kind of players (and content for them) in the game can attract other players, that actually are spending real money for GEMs.

    This is so true. If I may add that "rich" players buying gems with gold will increase the value of gems to gold, meaning not-so-rich players will find it more enticing to buy gems and then convert to gold. So a player with tons of gold buying gems will in turn increase the revenue of Arenanet by increasing the value of gems.

    So, which players/content are actually making the most money for Anet?

    Outside money generation, another important aspect to look at is how much time players spent in-game. Players with a high play time keep the game alive and active for players with very little play time. Generally speaking, invested players spend more money on games, the heavier the investment, the more likely to spend money, to justify that investment.

    It's way too complicated for sure!

  • @yann.1946 said:

    @Seth Moonshadow.2710 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    Honestly I think this dichotomy you wrote is the biggest problem for raids.
    Mostly because people believe this to be true while it is demonstrably false.

    Their are lots of training guilds willen to teach, and a mayor parts of the average community don't care about teaching other players at all.

    On the note of rewards, why do you think you can't get pvp rewards in pve etc. No gift of battle outside of wvw etc.

    So you admit the problem exists?!

    I admit the perception of the problem exist.

    Welp, I've already stated I have a video of just the kinds of problems I and others have listed. I'm not the only one either go look you'll find it. It's no mere "perception" but you keep telling yourself that! That in it's own is proof of the leetude we are talking about.

    The REAL fact is ANet has and knows the numbers but will NEVER share them. So to a point we'll never know. But if you look with open eyes you will see!

    Have a good day and Enjoy!

  • @Shikaru.7618 said:

    If you trained 5 times on a boss and werent able to get the kill, you either started on soulless horror or the group needs to do easier instance like t1 fractals or strikes to get used to dodging and positioning. None of the first bosses minus SH are hard enough that you cant kill them after practicing that long if you come prepared.

    I agree, I kept trying to have us train on VG, but the group voted for the Keep (I' think that was it the worgs and caslte?) we never made it much past the worgs.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2020

    My no.1 reason is the elitism. You can't join a PUG if you can't provide enough "proof" of your raid gaming skills. I, for one, understand most mechanics after the first or second run, I don't need to have done it dozens of times. Yet, I would still have to ping a high amount of LI to be allowed to join in most cases. That's tiresome and not worth my time, hence I lost interest in raids quickly.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Seth Moonshadow.2710 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Seth Moonshadow.2710 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    Honestly I think this dichotomy you wrote is the biggest problem for raids.
    Mostly because people believe this to be true while it is demonstrably false.

    Their are lots of training guilds willen to teach, and a mayor parts of the average community don't care about teaching other players at all.

    On the note of rewards, why do you think you can't get pvp rewards in pve etc. No gift of battle outside of wvw etc.

    So you admit the problem exists?!

    I admit the perception of the problem exist.

    Welp, I've already stated I have a video of just the kinds of problems I and others have listed. I'm not the only one either go look you'll find it. It's no mere "perception" but you keep telling yourself that! That in it's own is proof of the leetude we are talking about.

    The REAL fact is ANet has and knows the numbers but will NEVER share them. So to a point we'll never know. But if you look with open eyes you will see!

    Have a good day and Enjoy!

    I feel you're misunderstanding something I'm saying.

    Ofcourse their are toxic players in raids. As their are toxic players in the open world. In my experience they are a minority in both game modes.

    People believe the general raider is a toxic kitten. But that is as false as believing all people in the open world are super nice people.

    Ofcourse what is true doesn't matter here. Only what's perceived to be true. Which honestly is really sad. :(