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Top 3 reasons why raids only attracted a small audience

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  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Was it inconsistent to remove Raids or not? Was it inconsistent to make their release schedule so horrid to kill them (slowly)? Even after specifying that they will have faster releases. That's the important part which you simply dismissed. It's not about removing Raids, it's about what they did to Raids was inconsistent with their previous offerings AND developer comments.

    I'm not aware of Anet removing raids or stopping development of them. Yes, there is definitely a reduced release of them. I think that's an inevitable consequence of my point. Here, let me remind you what that is; you can decide how to go from there.

    Raids have low audience in this game because they are inconsistent with how content was offered to the original adopters of this game.

    You disagree with that? Great ...

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I'm not aware of Anet removing raids or stopping development of them.

    They did stop developing them, along with Fractals, although they recently stated that a new Fractal is under development. So maybe things might change?

    You disagree with that? Great ...

    Do you disagree with the developer statements that Raid participation was higher than expected, and that they were planning faster releases for them?

    Raids have low audience in this game because they are inconsistent with how content was offered to the original adopters of this game.

    Of course I disagree with that because there is more than enough evidence to suggest that their audience was enough to both justify their existence AND their continued development. Raids didn't fail to attract an audience, they failed to maintain it, due to reasons not always having to do with Raids themselves.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I'm not aware of Anet removing raids or stopping development of them.

    They did stop developing them, along with Fractals, although they recently stated that a new Fractal is under development. So maybe things might change?

    You disagree with that? Great ...

    Do you disagree with the developer statements that Raid participation was higher than expected, and that they were planning faster releases for them?

    I didn't see them but whether I agree with them or not doesn't change my position.

    Raids have low audience in this game because they are inconsistent with how content was offered to the original adopters of this game.

    Of course I disagree with that because there is more than enough evidence to suggest that their audience was enough to both justify their existence AND their continued development. Raids didn't fail to attract an audience, they failed to maintain it, due to reasons not always having to do with Raids themselves.

    OK. But I'm not talking about the fact that Raids attracted some part of the population and decreased. I'm talking about the fact that how raids are offered as content in this game is like like oil and water. They don't mix. It's inconsistent with other content offerings. It's like ... Raids should have been it's own game or something. People make this more complicated than it really is. No one is going to go to McD's for sushi ... no one is going to GW2 for raids. Those things are inconsistent offerings to their customers.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I didn't see them.

    Here from the first page of this thread:

    Raid in MMOs are high-end content designed for the more hardcore player. However, from an analytics standpoint, the participation is higher than other games we’ve seen. This is likely due to the nature of our progression system in GW2.

    http://dulfy.net/2016/03/05/gw2-reddit-developer-ama-summary/#Schedule

    Yup! We are planning more frequent raid releases this season. I look forward to being able to share more details :)

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/7g7wds/living_world_season_4_daybreak_devs_here_ask_us/dqh6g3v/

    It's inconsistent with other content offerings.

    Yet they attracted enough of an audience, for a while at least. This means there was enough of the playerbase that embraced them and they could've been successful if not for their neglect and inconsistent release schedule and comments. Which in turn would've been good for the game as a whole.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I didn't see them.

    Here from the first page of this thread:

    Raid in MMOs are high-end content designed for the more hardcore player. However, from an analytics standpoint, the participation is higher than other games we’ve seen. This is likely due to the nature of our progression system in GW2.

    http://dulfy.net/2016/03/05/gw2-reddit-developer-ama-summary/#Schedule

    Yup! We are planning more frequent raid releases this season. I look forward to being able to share more details :)

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/7g7wds/living_world_season_4_daybreak_devs_here_ask_us/dqh6g3v/

    It's inconsistent with other content offerings.

    Yet they attracted enough of an audience, for a while at least. This means there was enough of the playerbase that embraced them and they could've been successful if not for their neglect and inconsistent release schedule and comments. Which in turn would've been good for the game as a whole.

    That's a very one-sided perspective. Their might have been enough of a playerbase to embrace raids ... but that came at the expense of something else, because Anet doesn't have infinite resources to be everything to everyone. That something else was content consistent with how the original adopters of the game expected it ... who never signed up because of the existence of raids to begin with.

    Put it this way ... if raids were THE thing that was going to sustain this game with the players it attracted, Anet would have ramped up their development, not scaled them down. Honestly, I don't think raids were as popular as you give them credit for. Clearly, the revenue per minute played just wasn't there to invest in raid development.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That's a very one-sided perspective. Their might have been enough of a playerbase to embrace raids ... but that came at the expense of something else. That something else was the original adopters of the game that never signed up because of the existence of raids.

    You mean episodes stopped being released and we only got Raids? Interesting because I don't remember that happening at all.
    Also the "original adopters" didn't sign up for Griffon races, or mounts of any kind, they didn't sign up for Fractals (or Fractal CMs), automated PVP tournaments, map meta events, elite specializations, episodes, map meta achievements, achievement rewards, and loads of other things that nobody signed up for yet you single out Raids. Furthermore original adopters signed up to get content "for those that are raiding in other mmorpgs", because it was part of the game's advertising, it was sold with that and marketed with that. In the end they didn't find any of that. It used to be for a while, until we figured the "zerker and stack in a corner" meta.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That's a very one-sided perspective. Their might have been enough of a playerbase to embrace raids ... but that came at the expense of something else. That something else was the original adopters of the game that never signed up because of the existence of raids.

    You mean episodes stopped being released and we only got Raids? Interesting because I don't remember that happening at all.

    Fun ... more words in my mouth. If you're just going to tell me what I mean so you can argue, I'm going to ignore these passages.

    Also the "original adopters" didn't sign up for Griffon races, or mounts of any kind, they didn't sign up for Fractals (or Fractal CMs), automated PVP tournaments, map meta events, elite specializations, episodes, map meta achievements, achievement rewards, and loads of other things that nobody signed up for yet you single out Raids. Furthermore original adopters signed up to get content "for those that are raiding in other mmorpgs", because it was part of the game's advertising, it was sold with that and marketed with that. In the end they didn't find any of that. It used to be for a while, until we figured the "zerker and stack in a corner" meta.

    Again, and this is your big barrier here ... I'm not ONLY talking about content and I'M not singling out raids; inconsistency is rank in this game, EVERYWHERE. I'm talking about how content (new, old, same, different) is offered to customers. If you can't think that abstractly, we simply can't continue. In fact, the strike mission thread you referenced earlier is a great example of how content is offered inconsistently, WITHOUT it being new; the change that thread has issue with did not exist on previous strike missions.

    Yup, there is lots of inconsistency ... and it's bad. That's not to say we can't have new content. Just because something is new doesn't mean it's can't be offered in a consistent way with how customers experience this game. If you continue lump new content into what I'm referring to as inconsistent offerings, then it's no wonder you don't understand my point.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That's a very one-sided perspective. Their might have been enough of a playerbase to embrace raids ... but that came at the expense of something else. That something else was the original adopters of the game that never signed up because of the existence of raids.

    You mean episodes stopped being released and we only got Raids? Interesting because I don't remember that happening at all.

    Interesting. I do remember a long content drought just after HoT where raids were the only content being released. I also remember, that it didn't end well, and that the raid release schedule later on was way slower than during that time. Coincidentally, that very point where raid releases slowed down, but everything else started being released, is the very point you claim was the moment Anet started being inconsistent with raiders.
    Somehow, i don't think it would have ended well if Anet kept being "consistent" beyond that point. I mean, that very content drought for all the content types except raids was one of the things that contributed to the post-HoT income drop, as well as one of the things that got raids their bad name in GW2.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That's a very one-sided perspective. Their might have been enough of a playerbase to embrace raids ... but that came at the expense of something else. That something else was the original adopters of the game that never signed up because of the existence of raids.

    You mean episodes stopped being released and we only got Raids? Interesting because I don't remember that happening at all.

    Fun ... more words in my mouth. If you're just going to tell me what I mean so you can argue, I'm going to ignore these passages.

    Also the "original adopters" didn't sign up for Griffon races, or mounts of any kind, they didn't sign up for Fractals (or Fractal CMs), automated PVP tournaments, map meta events, elite specializations, episodes, map meta achievements, achievement rewards, and loads of other things that nobody signed up for yet you single out Raids. Furthermore original adopters signed up to get content "for those that are raiding in other mmorpgs", because it was part of the game's advertising, it was sold with that and marketed with that. In the end they didn't find any of that. It used to be for a while, until we figured the "zerker and stack in a corner" meta.

    Again, and this is your big barrier here ... I'm not ONLY talking about content and I'M not singling out raids; inconsistency is rank in this game, EVERYWHERE. I'm talking about how content (new, old, same, different) is offered to customers. If you can't think that abstractly, we simply can't continue. In fact, the strike mission thread you referenced earlier is a great example of how content is offered inconsistently, WITHOUT it being new; the change that thread has issue with did not exist on previous strike missions.

    Yup, there is lots of inconsistency ... and it's bad. That's not to say we can't have new content. Just because something is new doesn't mean it's can't be offered in a consistent way with how customers experience this game. If you continue lump new content into what I'm referring to as inconsistent offerings, then it's no wonder you don't understand my point.

    You actually haven't made the point about how to introduce new content consistently with the game. You probably should actually explain that before going further in the conversation.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That's a very one-sided perspective. Their might have been enough of a playerbase to embrace raids ... but that came at the expense of something else. That something else was the original adopters of the game that never signed up because of the existence of raids.

    You mean episodes stopped being released and we only got Raids? Interesting because I don't remember that happening at all.

    Fun ... more words in my mouth. If you're just going to tell me what I mean so you can argue, I'm going to ignore these passages.

    Game launched with less than 200 employees. Game reached 220 with heart of thorns. Raids used 7 developers out of 220 which were already more than at release. Game kept releasing episodes after raids... Raids were released at the expense of what?

    Also the "original adopters" didn't sign up for Griffon races, or mounts of any kind, they didn't sign up for Fractals (or Fractal CMs), automated PVP tournaments, map meta events, elite specializations, episodes, map meta achievements, achievement rewards, and loads of other things that nobody signed up for yet you single out Raids. Furthermore original adopters signed up to get content "for those that are raiding in other mmorpgs", because it was part of the game's advertising, it was sold with that and marketed with that. In the end they didn't find any of that. It used to be for a while, until we figured the "zerker and stack in a corner" meta.

    Again, and this is your big barrier here ... I'm not ONLY talking about content and I'M not singling out raids; inconsistency is rank in this game, EVERYWHERE. I'm talking about how content (new, old, same, different) is offered to customers. If you can't think that abstractly, we simply can't continue. In fact, the strike mission thread you referenced earlier is a great example of how content is offered inconsistently, WITHOUT it being new; the change that thread has issue with did not exist on previous strike missions.

    You were only talking about raids in this thread at least. As for strike missions yes and raid releases getting so slow was also a big part of the inconsistency. Which is what I haven't seen acknowledged as such

    Yup, there is lots of inconsistency ... and it's bad. That's not to say we can't have new content. Just because something is new doesn't mean it's can't be offered in a consistent way with how customers experience this game. If you continue lump new content into what I'm referring to as inconsistent offerings, then it's no wonder you don't understand my point.

    And who is going to make that distinction?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That's a very one-sided perspective. Their might have been enough of a playerbase to embrace raids ... but that came at the expense of something else. That something else was the original adopters of the game that never signed up because of the existence of raids.

    You mean episodes stopped being released and we only got Raids? Interesting because I don't remember that happening at all.

    Interesting. I do remember a long content drought just after HoT where raids were the only content being released. I also remember, that it didn't end well, and that the raid release schedule later on was way slower than during that time. Coincidentally, that very point where raid releases slowed down, but everything else started being released, is the very point you claim was the moment Anet started being inconsistent with raiders.
    Somehow, i don't think it would have ended well if Anet kept being "consistent" beyond that point. I mean, that very content drought for all the content types except raids was one of the things that contributed to the post-HoT income drop, as well as one of the things that got raids their bad name in GW2.

    You mean the content drought wasn't because they revamped the entire expansion experience but because of raids?

    Also I never mentioned the start of s3 as the moment Anet went inconsistent with raiders but after the release of Daybreak because with Daybreak they stated more often releases were coming. Instead they got more delays, at least between w4 and w5 we got an entire expansion.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That's a very one-sided perspective. Their might have been enough of a playerbase to embrace raids ... but that came at the expense of something else. That something else was the original adopters of the game that never signed up because of the existence of raids.

    You mean episodes stopped being released and we only got Raids? Interesting because I don't remember that happening at all.

    Interesting. I do remember a long content drought just after HoT where raids were the only content being released. I also remember, that it didn't end well, and that the raid release schedule later on was way slower than during that time. Coincidentally, that very point where raid releases slowed down, but everything else started being released, is the very point you claim was the moment Anet started being inconsistent with raiders.
    Somehow, i don't think it would have ended well if Anet kept being "consistent" beyond that point. I mean, that very content drought for all the content types except raids was one of the things that contributed to the post-HoT income drop, as well as one of the things that got raids their bad name in GW2.

    You mean the time where the entire HoT maps underwent reworks and core received gliding? Small reminder:

    • HoT released in October 2015
    • HoT maps got reworked until January 2016
    • core Tyria gliding was introduced in January 2016 (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/gliding-in-central-tyria/)
    • the 3 raid wings released during that time frame were done during the HoT development time and released in November 2015, March 2016 and June 2016 (these raid wings also mark the only time where raids were released in a sort of semi annually pace, dropping and further increasing with wing 4)
    • living world season 3 episode 1 released on July 26, 2016

    Sorry but the official statements as to the size and amount of developers working on raid content was and always has been very clear (a small team, the number often used was around 5-6. Later this team was merged with the fractal team). It certainly was not the reason as to why other content might have suffered. The praise was even huge when the initial raids released how such a small team managed to deliver such great content. Let's not start making things up.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Sorry but the official statements as to the size and amount of developers working on raid content was and always has been very clear (a small team, the number often used was around 5-6.

    Untrue, actually. They only dropped a dev number once, and it was about the devs from the raid team that worked on single specific wing. We do know however that at that time they were working on more than one wing at the same time, and that there were more than just raid team devs that were working on raids. People from other teams were involved as well. In the end we were never told how many devs and manhours were involved in raid development and how that compared to other content types.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    That's a very one-sided perspective. Their might have been enough of a playerbase to embrace raids ... but that came at the expense of something else. That something else was the original adopters of the game that never signed up because of the existence of raids.

    You mean episodes stopped being released and we only got Raids? Interesting because I don't remember that happening at all.

    Fun ... more words in my mouth. If you're just going to tell me what I mean so you can argue, I'm going to ignore these passages.

    Game launched with less than 200 employees. Game reached 220 with heart of thorns. Raids used 7 developers out of 220 which were already more than at release. Game kept releasing episodes after raids... Raids were released at the expense of what?

    At the expense of consistent content offerings. I could care LESS how many people worked on it. What I'm talking about is HOW it's offered to customers. If you expect black and you get white, it's irrelevant if you get 100 people giving it to you, or just one person.

    Also the "original adopters" didn't sign up for Griffon races, or mounts of any kind, they didn't sign up for Fractals (or Fractal CMs), automated PVP tournaments, map meta events, elite specializations, episodes, map meta achievements, achievement rewards, and loads of other things that nobody signed up for yet you single out Raids. Furthermore original adopters signed up to get content "for those that are raiding in other mmorpgs", because it was part of the game's advertising, it was sold with that and marketed with that. In the end they didn't find any of that. It used to be for a while, until we figured the "zerker and stack in a corner" meta.

    Again, and this is your big barrier here ... I'm not ONLY talking about content and I'M not singling out raids; inconsistency is rank in this game, EVERYWHERE. I'm talking about how content (new, old, same, different) is offered to customers. If you can't think that abstractly, we simply can't continue. In fact, the strike mission thread you referenced earlier is a great example of how content is offered inconsistently, WITHOUT it being new; the change that thread has issue with did not exist on previous strike missions.

    You were only talking about raids in this thread at least. As for strike missions yes and raid releases getting so slow was also a big part of the inconsistency. Which is what I haven't seen acknowledged as such

    OK. i don't know what you want me to say. I've JUST said that there is inconsistency everywhere in this game. If you don't think that's an acknowledgement that this includes raid releases slowing down, I don't know what to tell you.

    Yup, there is lots of inconsistency ... and it's bad. That's not to say we can't have new content. Just because something is new doesn't mean it's can't be offered in a consistent way with how customers experience this game. If you continue lump new content into what I'm referring to as inconsistent offerings, then it's no wonder you don't understand my point.

    And who is going to make that distinction?

    I literally just provided you with an example of what I'm talking about and you are asking for distinction? That's special. Honestly, if you can't put together what I'm talking about given that example, little I can say will change that.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Sorry but the official statements as to the size and amount of developers working on raid content was and always has been very clear (a small team, the number often used was around 5-6.

    Untrue, actually. They only dropped a dev number once, and it was about the devs from the raid team that worked on single specific wing. We do know however that at that time they were working on more than one wing at the same time, and that there were more than just raid team devs that were working on raids. People from other teams were involved as well. In the end we were never told how many devs and manhours were involved in raid development and how that compared to other content types.

    Strait from the wiki and based on ingame reference:

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2_Raids_Team

    Total known size is around 10 and if we factor in the fact that some of those devs, maybe all, were likely working on other projects as well, and for the later merge of the raid and fractal teams: the size of the raid and fractal team has always been small. If you take the time to go read the provided wiki link into the old forms, it becomes very clear that many of these developers were working on all aspects of instanced content besides raids.

    The instanced content team has always been far smaller then the multiple teams working on living world content. Always.

    So I politely disagree and would very much ask you to stop this nonsense or provide actual facts or proof why you suddenly question a so far held belief that the instance team was rather small, for which as mentioned there was even praise in the past.

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    There are multiple factors that make any of these pve type game modes within the game mode itself so unpopular. The first thing is when you have the aspect already in your mind of banning or kicking someone from a group that is the first step in half the player base not even interested in playing with you. Then anything that you might look at as fun is not fun to everyone else and that is attacking one thing for hours with small percentage of the time that you actually kill that one thing. Then the whole anet company motto was play how you want to play and raids specifically threw their whole mission statement out of the window especially when dealing with the ban/kicking its just never going to work.

    Its like strike missions were a great plan on paper but then when you add these elements of people who raid into the mix the urge to do them has completely dwindled down to not ever going to happen. The whole random people jumping into strike missions has gone out the window so a good plan on paper for the mission statement but then back to what is wrong with raids and the people who do them make strike missions fail too.

    So in the end a lot of people for pve type aspect of playing just do living story or expansion based metas since world bosses are mostly just waiting for something to happen and get bored before anything ever happens and log out. So there is a lot of human problems with content that anet can never fix and then the things they can fix will never be addressed and then with their competitive balance just full out make classes so much different from pve that it just gets too annoying to switch between the two. Then makes loyal players like myself leave the game for the most part like I still login for some wvw but other than that I've already left.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2020

    @Klypto.1703 said:
    Then the whole anet company motto was play how you want to play and raids specifically threw their whole mission statement out of the window especially when dealing with the ban/kicking its just never going to work.

    Please don't abuse this "mission statement" or rather design promise. It was never said in the context you are using it as. It was stated in the context that any content will reward the player and as such, players are not funneled into very specific content for rewards (like traditional MMORPG where eventually specific content became useless reward wise).

    Also while at it, please stop using the term mission statement. The closest thing to a mission statement for Arenanet is:

    We bring art to life. We're ArenaNet. We make the games we want to play a reality, and infuse them with innovation, hand-crafted detail, and creative passion

    While at it, the original design manifesto for GW2 supports this statement:
    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/

    Neither of the two make mention of your supposed mission statement. That term has a specific meaning, please adhere to it.

    Otherwise, I agree with most things you said.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    People from other teams were involved as well. In the end we were never told how many devs and manhours were involved in raid development and how that compared to other content types.

    We were told though (or can see ourselves) how many mechanics developed for Raids ended up being used in other parts of the game as well. Fixation, green circles, rotating "flame thrower" attacks, phases in boss fights (including story bosses) with phase transitioning, to name a few. And of course this applies to graphics too, bosses that borrowed design from Raid encounters, Vale Guardian and Slothasor were reused in the open world. How many man-hours did they "save" by having these mechanics developed by the Raid team instead of the living world team?

    Also:

    Raid teams are smaller than teams for Living World releases. For example, with Salvation Pass, we had only about 5-6 people working on it full time for 4 months.

    That would be the expected raid release cadence too, 4 months for a new Raid, designed by 5-6 people. It does seem very reasonable, and doable, it's less than 1/40th of the company's man-power. Do Raids have 1/40th of the population of other content? I'd bet that yes they do

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    At the expense of consistent content offerings.

    You mean after Raids were released they stopped giving consistent content offerings? That the living world was affected by Raids? Care to give some examples of how Raids affected the other content offerings?

    I literally just provided you with an example of what I'm talking about and you are asking for distinction?

    You mean this "example"?

    n fact, the strike mission thread you referenced earlier is a great example of how content is offered inconsistently, WITHOUT it being new

    And I will ask again, who will make the distinction which offering is consistent and which is not? Why is it that adding strike missions to meta achievements is "inconsistent", but let's say adding griffon races to the game is not. Or adding bounties to daily achievements. Or literally anything new they've added in the game after release. Who is to decide what's is and what isn't?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    At the expense of consistent content offerings.

    You mean after Raids were released they stopped giving consistent content offerings? That the living world was affected by Raids?

    Yes. That was the end of the "whole game is the endgame" design, and the beginning of the "stairway to raids" approach. You said it yourself - a lot of raidlike mechanics trickled down to other parts of the content, and many of those cases were introduced not with the intention of making those low end content encounters more fun, but in order to prepare people for raiding - even if they didn't consider it fun.

    There was also the impact on fractals (probably positive as seen from the point of view of hardcores, but negative for everyone else), and how introduction of raids gave Anet the final push towards completely and officially abandoning dungeons. Raids also removed any chance of having a legendary amor set obtainable through the old, legendary weapon-like methods (and that change definitely wasn't liked by all of the players that were after legendaries up until that point).

    About the the content drought i was talking about earlier - you may argue about the reasons it happened, but it did happen. And it, coupled with a lot of dev statements from that time, sent the message to many people that Raids are all Anet cares about. Even if that was not the message devs intended to send, it was the message players received. And Anet had to do damage control ever since that.

    As for raid development delays? As far as we know, Raid team remained pretty much unchanged until the layoffs, and didn't work on raids any less than before. Maybe they received less help from other teams, but in the end, the fact is that release schedule expectations Raiders had were based on mistaken belief that release schedule of first 3 wings is what Anet is capable of sustaining longterm (which was never the case, as that release schedule had nothing to do with development schedule - they were just releasing things they've already partly worked on beforehand, before first wing was even launched).

    And about them planning "more frequent" raid releases "this year" (which in Anet speak might have meant just releasing 2 wings in that one year), apparently those plans just didn't work out. They probably would have required increasing raid team size, but it was time when
    1. raid population was already dropping
    2. Anet started siphoning resources off everything and moving them to those other "unnamed projects" we still don't know much about (apart from them apparently being a flop).
    Raid popularity probably even then simply didn't justify increasing resources dedicated to that content high enough to make raiders satisfied. Which, frankly, was clear to me even since before raids were released - i was already quite sure then, that raiders won;t be satisfied with raids getting as much resources as Anet was willing to dedicate to them. Only going full ahead on that type of content, to the detriment of everything else might have sufficed. Turns out, i was 100% right.

    In that context, introducing raids was a major mistake - it created some assumptions in hardcore community that were never true, and some expectations Anet was never able to fulfill. In the retrospect it would have been better to not give hardcore community any false hope at all.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    As for raid development delays? As far as we know, Raid team remained pretty much unchanged until the layoffs, and didn't work on raids any less than before. Maybe they received less help from other teams, but in the end, the fact is that release schedule expectations Raiders had were based on mistaken belief that release schedule of first 3 wings is what Anet is capable of sustaining longterm (which was never the case, as that release schedule had nothing to do with development schedule - they were just releasing things they've already partly worked on beforehand, before first wing was even launched).

    Except for the raid and fractal team merge, right?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    You said it yourself - a lot of raidlike mechanics trickled down to other parts of the content, and many of those cases were introduced not with the intention of making those low end content encounters more fun, but in order to prepare people for raiding - even if they didn't consider it fun.

    How is adding a better way for your character to talk in the world going to prepare people for raiding is anyone's guess.... Which raid-like mechanics made future content less fun? Fixation? Rotating red fields? Phased bosses? The only part of the game developed to prepare players for raiding is supposed to be Strike Missions, yet most of them have very little to do with raiding.

    As far as we know, Raid team remained pretty much unchanged until the layoffs, and didn't work on raids any less than before.

    The release schedule of Raids suffered for one very specific reason: tying them to Episode releases. And since Long Live the Lich caused many organizational problems and delays to the Living World releases, Raids suffered because of it too. Who is to say when was Mythright Gambit ready for release and what would've happened if it was released when it was ready.

    Edit: as for the rest of your comments, you are assuming that the challenge/difficulty of the expansions and the seasons after them was a result of Raids. That the difficulty of bosses like Balthazar, Mordremoth and the difficulty of fractals like Nightmare were all because they released Raids. And without Raids they'd be much easier. The problem with that type of argument is that before Heart of Thorns many of the Fractals were considerably harder than they are today, there were boss encounters in Season 2 (long before Raids) that were more challenging than Season 3/4 bosses, plus we didn't even have elite specs back then. Or encounters like the Queen's Gauntlet, or Aetherpath in Twilight Arbor, were Raids responsible for those too even though they did not exist at the time?

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    At the expense of consistent content offerings.

    You mean after Raids were released they stopped giving consistent content offerings? That the living world was affected by Raids?

    Yes. That was the end of the "whole game is the endgame" design, and the beginning of the "stairway to raids" approach. You said it yourself - a lot of raidlike mechanics trickled down to other parts of the content, and many of those cases were introduced not with the intention of making those low end content encounters more fun, but in order to prepare people for raiding - even if they didn't consider it fun.

    There was also the impact on fractals (probably positive as seen from the point of view of hardcores, but negative for everyone else), and how introduction of raids gave Anet the final push towards completely and officially abandoning dungeons. Raids also removed any chance of having a legendary amor set obtainable through the old, legendary weapon-like methods (and that change definitely wasn't liked by all of the players that were after legendaries up until that point).

    About the the content drought i was talking about earlier - you may argue about the reasons it happened, but it did happen. And it, coupled with a lot of dev statements from that time, sent the message to many people that Raids are all Anet cares about. Even if that was not the message devs intended to send, it was the message players received. And Anet had to do damage control ever since that.

    As for raid development delays? As far as we know, Raid team remained pretty much unchanged until the layoffs, and didn't work on raids any less than before. Maybe they received less help from other teams, but in the end, the fact is that release schedule expectations Raiders had were based on mistaken belief that release schedule of first 3 wings is what Anet is capable of sustaining longterm (which was never the case, as that release schedule had nothing to do with development schedule - they were just releasing things they've already partly worked on beforehand, before first wing was even launched).

    And about them planning "more frequent" raid releases "this year" (which in Anet speak might have meant just releasing 2 wings in that one year), apparently those plans just didn't work out. They probably would have required increasing raid team size, but it was time when
    1. raid population was already dropping
    2. Anet started siphoning resources off everything and moving them to those other "unnamed projects" we still don't know much about (apart from them apparently being a flop).
    Raid popularity probably even then simply didn't justify increasing resources dedicated to that content high enough to make raiders satisfied. Which, frankly, was clear to me even since before raids were released - i was already quite sure then, that raiders won;t be satisfied with raids getting as much resources as Anet was willing to dedicate to them. Only going full ahead on that type of content, to the detriment of everything else might have sufficed. Turns out, i was 100% right.

    In that context, introducing raids was a major mistake - it created some assumptions in hardcore community that were never true, and some expectations Anet was never able to fulfill. In the retrospect it would have been better to not give hardcore community any false hope at all.

    "The whole game is the Endgame" approach was never successful in the first place.
    Before the introduction of expansions and raids, "Straight into Berserker meta into the Dungeons" was already the approach. Dungeons becoming level 80 only instead of their advertised levels, kick heavy, and nearly impossible to be completed with low level or new players. Maps quickly become abandoned as players simply flock into Queensdale champ train for both leveling and causal gold grindings.

    The introduction of Raid was actually an improvement, as the squad based approach opens up from 5 player elite into a community based co-op, with more tolerance of class type varieties.

    Sustainability has always an issue across across all PVE contents, raid included but NOT exclusive to raid and fractals.
    New world maps and Living stories events were equally abandoned by players as there is no purpose for revisit once a certain level of grinding is complete.
    It has been a problem with the whole game.

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Klypto.1703 said:
    Then the whole anet company motto was play how you want to play and raids specifically threw their whole mission statement out of the window especially when dealing with the ban/kicking its just never going to work.

    Please don't abuse this "mission statement" or rather design promise. It was never said in the context you are using it as. It was stated in the context that any content will reward the player and as such, players are not funneled into very specific content for rewards (like traditional MMORPG where eventually specific content became useless reward wise).

    Also while at it, please stop using the term mission statement. The closest thing to a mission statement for Arenanet is:

    We bring art to life. We're ArenaNet. We make the games we want to play a reality, and infuse them with innovation, hand-crafted detail, and creative passion

    While at it, the original design manifesto for GW2 supports this statement:
    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/

    Neither of the two make mention of your supposed mission statement. That term has a specific meaning, please adhere to it.

    Otherwise, I agree with most things you said.

    So you are missing the whole thing where they say play as you want. Also telling people how to think and how they should do things is the entire mindset of why content like this is avoided at all costs. It was approachable in theory when you could just dive into it as playing as you want but then that changed and then people quit trying strike missions.

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    Actually players signed up for GW2 because they expected content that was aimed at raiders. "This is the content for those that are raiding in other mmorpgs" is what Anet said before release. So when Anet decided to introduce Raids, it was to benefit the ORIGINAL adopters of the game and give them what was promised so long ago. The expectation was that the other content will be what "those that are raiding in other games" would find suitable to their needs, but in the end it didn't work. Do note that the vast majority of those that bought the game stopped playing in the first few months and Anet did a course correction. Part was hype, part was broken promises.

    WHAT? Or to be more precise, for WHAT players is this valid? More probably for the players who joined the game after the HoT release in Octomber 2016. So, most of the players in cause joined GW2 after 2017.

    But look what Mike O'Brien told us in 2012: "So if you love MMORPGs, you should check out Guild Wars 2. But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2. Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun"

    What was one of the prominent features of traditional MMO at that time - the raids. So, come join GW2 if you hate them - said O'Brien.

    And now, if I want to raid (to have fun), I must watch videos on Internet / adapt my playstile to be not necessarily on my liking, but to be helpful to the team / work to gear my toon not to play the game, but to successfully raid etc. Well, the preparation to have fun exceeds the fun rewarded by beating the encounter.

    I think that these are the ORIGINAL adopters of the game, and, sadly, ANet gave them exactly the thing they promised to not give. Hard to understand why the raids are so unpopular?

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    That does not make any sense. Raids with the release of HoT were neither rewarding, nor was legendary armor, the main draw for many players, even implemented. The content as such was absolutely side content and had literally no effect on players not participating in them. Similar to how the initial releases of fractals had almost no impact on the game until many many revamps.

    To reason that raids were a reason in drop of revenue at the beginning of HoT is pure fantasy. There were a ton of other likely way higher contributing factors.

    I cannot agree with this - in my opinion the raids were important (forced by ANet to be important). Because of NO other content (except raids) released for almost 1 year after HoT launch everything revolved around raids. Even the most basic thing, absolutely normal in any other game - awarding experience - was related with the raids. You want XP - that means a spirit shard every level-up? You need to raid. This means absolutely no effect on players? Also, for the legendary armor - every player knew that it will require LI. And the LI drops from raid bosses. So, even if the armor was not ingame from the start, the players actually stored LI to craft it. No effect on players?

    So, another reason to the OP question - why raids attract only a small audience: The legendary armor has been acquired by the ones wanting it. And now, without it, the raids started to be unappealing even for them (or for some of them at least). If we "strip" the raids of the armor, we can see how attractive is a "naked" raid.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    Actually players signed up for GW2 because they expected content that was aimed at raiders.

    WHAT? Or to be more precise, for WHAT players is this valid?

    Content that was aimed at raiders and raids are two different things. And they did mention before release that they will have content aimed at those that are raiding in other games.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2020

    @Klypto.1703 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Klypto.1703 said:
    Then the whole anet company motto was play how you want to play and raids specifically threw their whole mission statement out of the window especially when dealing with the ban/kicking its just never going to work.

    Please don't abuse this "mission statement" or rather design promise. It was never said in the context you are using it as. It was stated in the context that any content will reward the player and as such, players are not funneled into very specific content for rewards (like traditional MMORPG where eventually specific content became useless reward wise).

    Also while at it, please stop using the term mission statement. The closest thing to a mission statement for Arenanet is:

    We bring art to life. We're ArenaNet. We make the games we want to play a reality, and infuse them with innovation, hand-crafted detail, and creative passion

    While at it, the original design manifesto for GW2 supports this statement:
    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/

    Neither of the two make mention of your supposed mission statement. That term has a specific meaning, please adhere to it.

    Otherwise, I agree with most things you said.

    So you are missing the whole thing where they say play as you want.

    I didn't miss this. They never stated this in the context you used it. You are free to find the original citation and check yourself. This issue has been a topic of debate many times over the years and it gets tiresome that some players still miss use this quote.

    @Klypto.1703 said:
    Also telling people how to think and how they should do things is the entire mindset of why content like this is avoided at all costs. It was approachable in theory when you could just dive into it as playing as you want but then that changed and then people quit trying strike missions.

    Where is anyone telling you how to think? The only correction I made is that you are using the term "mission statement" incorrectly since this term has an actual defined meaning in the context of business: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_statement

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    I cannot agree with this - in my opinion the raids were important (forced by ANet to be important). Because of NO other content (except raids) released for almost 1 year after HoT launch everything revolved around raids. Even the most basic thing, absolutely normal in any other game - awarding experience - was related with the raids. You want XP - that means a spirit shard every level-up? You need to raid. This means absolutely no effect on players? Also, for the legendary armor - every player knew that it will require LI. And the LI drops from raid bosses. So, even if the armor was not ingame from the start, the players actually stored LI to craft it. No effect on players?

    So, another reason to the OP question - why raids attract only a small audience: The legendary armor has been acquired by the ones wanting it. And now, without it, the raids started to be unappealing even for them (or for some of them at least). If we "strip" the raids of the armor, we can see how attractive is a "naked" raid.

    and as pointed out by me, the actual amount of developers working on raids has been minimal. I don't care what your opinion is when we have actual facts which disprove that raid development took away resources of other game content or are to blame for content delay in a significant manner. The size of the developer team for raids IS/WAS KNOWN. (PS. the content gap was 3/4 of a year between HoTs release and LWS3 Episode 1, if we omit the reworks of HoT maps in January and the implementation of gliding.)

    As far as raid appeal, I can only speak from the communities I am part of, but the main reasons currently why players of my caliber, similar caliber or higher/lower caliber, are leaving the content (I'm at 1.7k LI and 500+ LD) has nothing to do with legendary armor (we've had that covered many times over).
    It's based on 3 things:

    • over all amount of players has dropped, reducing player numbers across all game modes
    • there has not been any new content in ages
    • there is no prospect for future raid content

    If you think LI are a major factor almost 5 years in (the top LI player in gw2eff is at 3.2k) for veteran raiders, you are wrong. Yes, having LD be basically useless did not help the longevity, but these are side issues for an entire community. Lack of content is and always has been the main factor for decline, and that is CONSISTENT WITH EVERY GAME MODE in this game.

    As far as new raiders and less experienced raiders, I've mentioned that I have witnessed new groups forming even now (I personally know of a guild which is closing in on clearing W 1-4 and they started around 2-3 months back). But when more and more players leave the game mode, it becomes more and more difficult to pass on knowledge (just look at the smaller and smaller amount of damage benchmarks, guides and updates provided to the community). If the veterans leave, it has an effect on everybody.

    TL;DR:
    It becomes more and more evident that "raids" have become the boogeyman for some players and are to blame for nearly every issue the game has. No matter if facts or logic might dictate otherwise.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    TL;DR:
    It becomes more and more evident that "raids" have become the boogeyman for some players and are to blame for nearly every issue the game has. No matter if facts or logic might dictate otherwise.

    This sums up the problem for raids pretty well, their are people who will hate on raids no matter what. And the sad part is that it doesn't matter whether their right or wrong. =(

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    and as pointed out by me, the actual amount of developers working on raids has been minimal. I don't care what your opinion is when we have actual facts which disprove that raid development took away resources of other game content or are to blame for content delay in a significant manner. The size of the developer team for raids IS/WAS KNOWN. (PS. the content gap was 3/4 of a year between HoTs release and LWS3 Episode 1, if we omit the reworks of HoT maps in January and the implementation of gliding.)

    >

    If you think LI are a major factor almost 5 years in (the top LI player in gw2eff is at 3.2k) for veteran raiders, you are wrong. Yes, having LD be basically useless did not help the longevity, but these are side issues for an entire community. Lack of content is and always has been the main factor for decline, and that is CONSISTENT WITH EVERY GAME MODE in this game.

    TL;DR:
    It becomes more and more evident that "raids" have become the boogeyman for some players and are to blame for nearly every issue the game has. No matter if facts or logic might dictate otherwise.

    No matter how many developers worked on raids at that time. As long as the output of all the other teams for almost one year was ZERO, we can conclude that all the productive forces in the game were directed to the raids at that time.

    If you consider that introducing the gliding in core Tyria means content .... well, it is your opinion. For me this is not. Moreover, I still consider even now that gliding in core Tyria is something bad for the game.

    And reworking the HoT maps - LOL. Do you think that adjusting some numbers on mobs means content? It is more like a balance patch. But, regarding the rework - we still have bugs reported very early after the HoT launch and not solved even today.

    Still, you forget to mention how many "reworks" were done on raids. And how many classes were nerfed or buffed according to the performance in raids. You have a Chronomancer sign as your avatar - do you remember how many times the Chrono has been changed in relation to the raid performance? No, the raids were not ignored - according to the way you count the "updates".

    As for the legendary armor - I accept your statement - as being the commune view of your group. On the other hand, most of the raiders I know have the opinion I expressed: "I barely await to complete these (3) armors. After that I won't step into raids anymore".

    The raids have not become the boogeyman. The raids were launched as the boogeyman by ANet: Beware, community!! This content is so difficult, so scary, so demanding and unforgiving! Only a few will be able to complete it. And even less will be able to enjoy it! But don't worry! Everything we will deliver further in the game will be raid related! You want XP? - go to raid. You want armor? - go to raid. You want GW2 only? Sorry, not possible - go to raid.

  • Dami.5046Dami.5046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Get rid of DPS meters then I might give it a go.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2020

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    and as pointed out by me, the actual amount of developers working on raids has been minimal. I don't care what your opinion is when we have actual facts which disprove that raid development took away resources of other game content or are to blame for content delay in a significant manner. The size of the developer team for raids IS/WAS KNOWN. (PS. the content gap was 3/4 of a year between HoTs release and LWS3 Episode 1, if we omit the reworks of HoT maps in January and the implementation of gliding.)

    >

    If you think LI are a major factor almost 5 years in (the top LI player in gw2eff is at 3.2k) for veteran raiders, you are wrong. Yes, having LD be basically useless did not help the longevity, but these are side issues for an entire community. Lack of content is and always has been the main factor for decline, and that is CONSISTENT WITH EVERY GAME MODE in this game.

    TL;DR:
    It becomes more and more evident that "raids" have become the boogeyman for some players and are to blame for nearly every issue the game has. No matter if facts or logic might dictate otherwise.

    No matter how many developers worked on raids at that time. As long as the output of all the other teams for almost one year was ZERO, we can conclude that all the productive forces in the game were directed to the raids at that time.

    No, what we can conclude is that developer resources were tied to things other than game content YOU personally might enjoy. Had the small team of developers not worked on raids, they too might not have been devoted to content YOU enjoy. That is absolutely unrelated to raids.

    If you consider that introducing the gliding in core Tyria means content .... well, it is your opinion. For me this is not. Moreover, I still consider even now that gliding in core Tyria is something bad for the game.

    And reworking the HoT maps - LOL. Do you think that adjusting some numbers on mobs means content? It is more like a balance patch. But, regarding the rework - we still have bugs reported very early after the HoT launch and not solved even today.

    Again, I absolutely do not care what your personal preference is. I was talking from a resource allocation perspective, and the HoT rework (I would remind you that the rework goes as far as changing contribution, progress, AND the entire map mechanics too) as well as bringing gliding to core Tyria were resource hogs which had NOTHING to do with raiding.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    Still, you forget to mention how many "reworks" were done on raids. And how many classes were nerfed or buffed according to the performance in raids. You have a Chronomancer sign as your avatar - do you remember how many times the Chrono has been changed in relation to the raid performance? No, the raids were not ignored - according to the way you count the "updates".

    That's class and balance reworks. Those are done by different teams..... and yes, as far as balance for PvE, the game is in a way better state then it ever has been. Or do you forget in what state class balance on damage dealers was during HoT? Class balance to this day is being done for the entire game, in this case more heavily aimed at PvP/WvW at the moment. The main reason it's not noticeable in open world PvE is: open world PvE is so brain dead easy, it needs no individual attention. There is nothing to balance around with open world PvE content.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    As for the legendary armor - I accept your statement - as being the commune view of your group. On the other hand, most of the raiders I know have the opinion I expressed: "I barely await to complete these (3) armors. After that I won't step into raids anymore".

    Now take a step back, consider how many players you know who ENJOY raid content, then do a deep personal analysis where your subjective view might come from. I could bring the same argument about how there is players who despise open world content, and I would be just as right if I focused only on that group of players. Maybe, just maybe you are surrounded with players who do not enjoy raid content, that is perfectly fine. You can't argue against the fact though that LI and LD, from a pure availability perspective, have been meaningless for veteran raiders for a very long time.

    So I will repeat: the main reason for raid population deterioration is lack of raid content paired with a drop in over all player count.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    The raids have not become the boogeyman. The raids were launched as the boogeyman by ANet: Beware, community!! This content is so difficult, so scary, so demanding and unforgiving! Only a few will be able to complete it. And even less will be able to enjoy it! But don't worry! Everything we will deliver further in the game will be raid related! You want XP? - go to raid. You want armor? - go to raid. You want GW2 only? Sorry, not possible - go to raid.

    and this exactly sums up what is wrong here. You have chosen to demonize a specific type of content and are beyond any rational reasoning about it.

    The lack of Spirit Shard availability was an oversight in the mastery system and was corrected (and was present even without raids if one was lacking masteries from a different area), you can't blame this on individual content, well you can but you are incredibly biased in that case.

    Yes, raids were designed as challenging instanced content. That does not make them the bane of all GW2. Only for those this content is not meant for. Still does not warrant making it the scapegoat for all complaints.

    From a content perspective, GW2 has seen way way way more content that is not raid related and is in no way tied to raids. Far more than before HoTs launch. This is literally some strong imagination you have and you enjoy projecting your dissatisfaction onto a game mode.

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    A game "that caters to fractions of it's population with various kinds of content" will survive and prosper compared to a game that tries to cater to what "most of its population want". That's how mmorpgs work, they cater to lots of different types of players. We'll see what the recent change in attitude, and giving more varied content, will result in, as in Q4 2019 they released content for a single type of player. Now they spread more. We'll all be here to discuss the Q1 2020 and Q2 2020 results.

    That's an easy statement to make but that's not how service industries work and demonstrates a significant lack of business acumen on your part.

    @Obtena.7952 I completely agree with you in a general business context. While my personal business experience is in industries very different from gaming, I think this principle holds true for almost any consumer-facing operation. Making a product or service that is supposed to be so many things to so many different people is usually the single fastest way to waste investor funds, default on loans, and destroy a company. Even for successful businesses that seem to cover a lot of different bases, their success is not based on that variety, but on some other core competence (usually just one) that helps them deliver that variety in a smarter/more profitable way.

    All that being said, I think @maddoctor.2738's point is a good one precisely because I don't see GW2 as just a singular product that tries to do various things. I think it's more constructive to see GW2 as more akin to a brand name under which the company ArenaNet seeks to deliver a variety of different player experiences. In other words, I think the various forms of player experience - not the game as a whole - are what need to be laser-focused on a particular audience. Raids probably shouldn't be diluted to cater to people who want even more handholding than there already is. Open world and story bosses probably shouldn't be made harder, given that many casual playerse somehow find them too difficult even as they are now. Similar things could be said for spvp and wvw, and at least for a while now we've been consistently seeing skill splits that finally separate those modes from pve a bit more.

  • Pirogen.9561Pirogen.9561 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    We were told though (or can see ourselves) how many mechanics developed for Raids ended up being used in other parts of the game as well. Fixation, green circles, rotating "flame thrower" attacks, phases in boss fights (including story bosses) with phase transitioning, to name a few. And of course this applies to graphics too, bosses that borrowed design from Raid encounters, Vale Guardian and Slothasor were reused in the open world. How many man-hours did they "save" by having these mechanics developed by the Raid team instead of the living world team?

    In my eyes, nothing. They made things worse by poluting game with raid stuff. I don't see rotating flame thrower as an improvement, more degradation. Not even gonna talk about raid-related nerfs.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    And I will ask again, who will make the distinction which offering is consistent and which is not? Why is it that adding strike missions to meta achievements is "inconsistent", but let's say adding griffon races to the game is not. Or adding bounties to daily achievements. Or literally anything new they've added in the game after release. Who is to decide what's is and what isn't?

    That distinction is realized when Anet decide to make those deviations in content. Ultimately, it's players opinion that matters because the impact is on them, so the question is sort of irrelevant. If a player is confronted with enough deviations that make them question the direction Anet is taking the game and how Anet regards them as a customer, they WILL act accordingly, regardless of who makes that distinction.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2020

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    A game "that caters to fractions of it's population with various kinds of content" will survive and prosper compared to a game that tries to cater to what "most of its population want". That's how mmorpgs work, they cater to lots of different types of players. We'll see what the recent change in attitude, and giving more varied content, will result in, as in Q4 2019 they released content for a single type of player. Now they spread more. We'll all be here to discuss the Q1 2020 and Q2 2020 results.

    That's an easy statement to make but that's not how service industries work and demonstrates a significant lack of business acumen on your part.

    @Obtena.7952 I completely agree with you in a general business context. While my personal business experience is in industries very different from gaming, I think this principle holds true for almost any consumer-facing operation. Making a product or service that is supposed to be so many things to so many different people is usually the single fastest way to waste investor funds, default on loans, and destroy a company. Even for successful businesses that seem to cover a lot of different bases, their success is not based on that variety, but on some other core competence (usually just one) that helps them deliver that variety in a smarter/more profitable way.

    All that being said, I think @maddoctor.2738's point is a good one precisely because I don't see GW2 as just a singular product that tries to do various things. I think it's more constructive to see GW2 as more akin to a brand name under which the company ArenaNet seeks to deliver a variety of different player experiences. In other words, I think the various forms of player experience - not the game as a whole - are what need to be laser-focused on a particular audience. Raids probably shouldn't be diluted to cater to people who want even more handholding than there already is. Open world and story bosses probably shouldn't be made harder, given that many casual playerse somehow find them too difficult even as they are now. Similar things could be said for spvp and wvw, and at least for a while now we've been consistently seeing skill splits that finally separate those modes from pve a bit more.

    My problem is that those 'brands' and how they are offered tend to bleed into each other; those are the most egregious IMO. Not only that, but there are more than enough examples of inconsistencies WITHIN a given gamemode 'brand' that have to make you scratch you head and wonder WTH Anet is doing and why.

    Strike mission achievements bleeding into meta rewards is a great example of the former. Griffon mount cost is a great example of the latter. These are not isolated instances. I'm betting that even putting aside some notion that 'new content' is a deviation from the norm that some people might mistake for 'inconsistency', there are STILL lots of examples not new-content related that over time, have impacted a significant number of players in this game to cause them to question game direction and Anet's customer understanding.

    I agree with you that Anet should laser focus content IF they are going to continue to try to appeal to different types of customers; this is not the direction is heading ATM. Instead we got raid content and methods bleeding into OW PVE ... yeah OK ... and then people turn around and wonder WTH I'm talking about when I say inconsistent content offerings.

    Some people aren't trying very hard and playing games like pretending there is some authority that decides what an inconsistency is. If a player gets white for while and they expect white, then they get black, they don't need someone to tell them black is distinct from white to know they were just hit with an inconsistent offering.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • DoRi Silvia.4159DoRi Silvia.4159 Member ✭✭✭

    Unfortunately this is a really hard topic for us raiders, new players and for the dev's...
    I understand why people are put off raiding from KP and elitism but also as a raider I know why people want kp.

    A boss with a good competent group knowing what to do can clear it in roughly 5 minutes but when you start getting players not knowing what to do or players playing random whack as build it can take hours upon hours (I had a dead eye join on me on twin largos saying hes condi dmg and ended up doing like 2kdps)
    Also When you start having people who are less experienced who down to mechanics, it takes time for the dps players to come off the rotation and res you up resulting in dps loss, having to do more mechanics or sometimes worse, them downing also from trying to res.

    DPS toxicity also exists because alot of boss mechanics can be skipped if your squad dps is high and will lead to less moving around usually

    Most of the groups wanting kp are people who dont have the time to be patient for a player to learn mechanics and deal with wiping many times over, hence the kp

    For new players to raiding it is a tough time to get into raiding and I struggled through this until I found a good group of people who are skilled at their class but have little knowledge on mechanics. We formed up daily to clear and learn and now we have done almost all the bosses multiple times.

    The biggest problem i see is that the game never really teaches you or makes you play a certain build with certain equipments to try maximise you and your squads damage output unless you do cm fractals. So when players new to raids get hit with you need to play this build and do these rotations it becomes extremely difficult for some

    To be honest I dont know what anet can do to fix this, I always suggest joining a raid training guild for people it's not quite enough to get new players into raiding.

    Difficulty scaling with much less rewards was suggested alot to try interest players into raiding but anet seems uninterested and strike was their answer... which I dont think is doing a good job
    But It is about the only way I can see more people playing raids and I'm happy for a easy mode to come out with lesser rewards, this would really bring in more players to be interested in raiding, keeps all the current raiders happy as the normal mode should still exist, and possibly spark new flames for the devs to create content for raid

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2020

    ^^ I feel for that position, but we can certainly anticipate what WON'T fix those things ... pissing people off by injecting raid methods and content where it's not wanted. At some point, the music will be faced and hard decisions will have to be made. None of those have good outcomes, but some of them have less bad impacts than others.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Ultimately, it's players opinion that matters because the impact is on them, so the question is sort of irrelevant.

    Exactly, it's an individual player's opinion. Yet you pretend to be some kind of authority on what's good and what's not... I'd let the players decide, as a whole. You might be surprised by the results.

    If a player is confronted with enough deviations that make them question the direction Anet is taking the game and how Anet regards them as a customer, they WILL act accordingly, regardless of

    Imagine if Anet was afraid to try new things that "deviate" from the usual, because they were afraid that what they present will appear as a different "offering" to their players and cause trouble. Then we wouldn't have all the good things added to the game either and I'm sure there are many new things most players like. Fortunately, Anet isn't that kind of company, they innovate and iterate, which is what makes Guild Wars 2 what it is. If it sticks, it sticks, if it doesn't then it's abandoned.

    A live game needs variety. Variety means trying new things. Some will fail others will succeed stagnating to keep offering the same content isn't good for a live service game. In the end, vote with your wallet as they say. And we've seen the results of such a vote very recently

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2020

    @DoRi Silvia.4159 said:
    Unfortunately this is a really hard topic for us raiders, new players and for the dev's...
    I understand why people are put off raiding from KP and elitism but also as a raider I know why people want kp.

    As someone that was always heavily against raids, i also know and understand why people want KPs, and i do not blame them for doing so. In the end, KPs are not the cause, but merely a symptom of something much deeper. The real problem people have with raids is not that raiders ask for KPs. In the end it is caused by the content practically requiring using some methods of player filtering. And since this is something caused by raid difficulty, and raids are all about being difficult, i don't think it is something that can ever be fixed. Easy mode might be created to not have this flaw, but it's not going to change anything about normal/hard mode. For those, prefiltering group members is always going to happen, because the difficulty of the mode requires it.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    The raids have not become the boogeyman. The raids were launched as the boogeyman by ANet: Beware, community!! This content is so difficult, so scary, so demanding and unforgiving! Only a few will be able to complete it. And even less will be able to enjoy it! But don't worry! Everything we will deliver further in the game will be raid related! You want XP? - go to raid. You want armor? - go to raid. You want GW2 only? Sorry, not possible - go to raid.

    and this exactly sums up what is wrong here. You have chosen to demonize a specific type of content and are beyond any rational reasoning about it.

    This is not my choice. This is the way ANet choose to "force" the raids into the game. Did you hear so many complains regarding the lack of accessibility for Fractals for example/ Or for Dungeons? Why? Because if you don't have an specific interest in doing fractals or dungeons you don't care if this is an accessible content or not. Or if the audience is small or large. What is different with the raids? I pointed already. The raids were "forced" into the game. And the raids were (at that time) the only way to obtain an armor - not a shinny toy or a title or a cosmetic, but an armor. Equal with another armors in terms of battle performance but surpassing everything we knew in terms of QoL. And by allowing all the stats surpassing anything we knew in terms of cost savings.

    The lack of Spirit Shard availability was an oversight in the mastery system and was corrected (and was present even without raids if one was lacking masteries from a different area), you can't blame this on individual content, well you can but you are incredibly biased in that case.

    This oversight has been pointed very early in the HoT life by the players. And ignored by the developers until the release of PoF. Because they realized that by doing the same thing in PoF they will loose even more players. So, this was not an oversight. It was a wrong decision at the start of HoT. Presented after 2 years as an oversight. AH - and about lacking masteries from other areas - well, to not have max mastery on other areas can be a choice for most players. If you decide it is not worth, then you decide to not have max mastery. For the raids .... this is another story - see bellow:

    Yes, raids were designed as challenging instanced content. That does not make them the bane of all GW2. Only for those this content is not meant for. Still does not warrant making it the scapegoat for all complaints.

    Wrong. The raids were designed with the idea to be NOT possible to be completed by the most of the players. This is very different from challenging content. And returning to the idea of max mastery - they tied a reward (theoretically for any player - the XP!!) to a content designed to be NOT possible for most of the players. Oversight? Think well. To me this is a wrong decision.

    From a content perspective, GW2 has seen way way way more content that is not raid related and is in no way tied to raids. Far more than before HoTs launch. This is literally some strong imagination you have and you enjoy projecting your dissatisfaction onto a game mode.

    Indeed, the GW2 has seen way way more content that is not raid related. This is true. But you forget that I talked about the 10 months interval after HoT launch - when the content released was raid related only. Ignoring the players requests to repair the mastery "oversight". Ignoring the players requests to fix bugs. Generally speaking, ignoring all the other players requests.

    And second - you try to put an equal sign between the raids and open world. The raids designed by the devs from the very beginning to be a niche content played by few players cannot be put on the same level with the open world. The content designed for all the other players. The core of the game. This is the most funny comparation I saw in this debate.

    The title of this debate was "Top 3 reasons why raids only attracted a small audience". Well, we can add here another reason: The raids attract a small audience because this was the goal of the devs from the very beginning. The situation now is as per devs expectations. No wonder they claim that everything is OK with the raids. So, OP, the audience is not small. It is very good, better than in other games.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2020

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    The raids have not become the boogeyman. The raids were launched as the boogeyman by ANet: Beware, community!! This content is so difficult, so scary, so demanding and unforgiving! Only a few will be able to complete it. And even less will be able to enjoy it! But don't worry! Everything we will deliver further in the game will be raid related! You want XP? - go to raid. You want armor? - go to raid. You want GW2 only? Sorry, not possible - go to raid.

    and this exactly sums up what is wrong here. You have chosen to demonize a specific type of content and are beyond any rational reasoning about it.

    This is not my choice. This is the way ANet choose to "force" the raids into the game. Did you hear so many complains regarding the lack of accessibility for Fractals for example/ Or for Dungeons? Why? Because if you don't have an specific interest in doing fractals or dungeons you don't care if this is an accessible content or not. Or if the audience is small or large. What is different with the raids? I pointed already. The raids were "forced" into the game. And the raids were (at that time) the only way to obtain an armor - not a shinny toy or a title or a cosmetic, but an armor. Equal with another armors in terms of battle performance but surpassing everything we knew in terms of QoL. And by allowing all the stats surpassing anything we knew in terms of cost savings.

    See what maddoctor.2738 answered. In short: yes, players complained a lot about dungeons and fractals. They do to this day. The main reason some complaints have subsided for dungeons is that the content sees less focus by the community. As far as fractals, those have seen multiple reworks and additions of support classes to make the content less skill required while kitten out rewards way out of proportion.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The lack of Spirit Shard availability was an oversight in the mastery system and was corrected (and was present even without raids if one was lacking masteries from a different area), you can't blame this on individual content, well you can but you are incredibly biased in that case.

    This oversight has been pointed very early in the HoT life by the players. And ignored by the developers until the release of PoF. Because they realized that by doing the same thing in PoF they will loose even more players. So, this was not an oversight. It was a wrong decision at the start of HoT. Presented after 2 years as an oversight. AH - and about lacking masteries from other areas - well, to not have max mastery on other areas can be a choice for most players. If you decide it is not worth, then you decide to not have max mastery. For the raids .... this is another story - see bellow:

    and none of that was the fault of raids, or players enjoying raids.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Yes, raids were designed as challenging instanced content. That does not make them the bane of all GW2. Only for those this content is not meant for. Still does not warrant making it the scapegoat for all complaints.

    Wrong. The raids were designed with the idea to be NOT possible to be completed by the most of the players. This is very different from challenging content. And returning to the idea of max mastery - they tied a reward (theoretically for any player - the XP!!) to a content designed to be NOT possible for most of the players. Oversight? Think well. To me this is a wrong decision.

    No, challenging content literally means:
    (the situation of being faced with) something that needs great mental or physical effort in order to be done successfully and therefore tests a person's ability

    It automatically excludes the part of the player base which is unwilling or unable to perform. What some might perceive as challenging content might vary since challenge in and of its self is subjective. The raid content was designed with a certain challenge threshold in mind, and within that area provides different challenging bosses while retaining a certain base level of concept (10 player focus, a certain minimum amount of damage, specific mechanics which need addressing, etc).

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    From a content perspective, GW2 has seen way way way more content that is not raid related and is in no way tied to raids. Far more than before HoTs launch. This is literally some strong imagination you have and you enjoy projecting your dissatisfaction onto a game mode.

    Indeed, the GW2 has seen way way more content that is not raid related. This is true. But you forget that I talked about the 10 months interval after HoT launch - when the content released was raid related only. Ignoring the players requests to repair the mastery "oversight". Ignoring the players requests to fix bugs. Generally speaking, ignoring all the other players requests.

    You still don't seem to understand that the small team which worked on the raid content had nothing to do with the fact that other PvE content was not delivered. The majority of the dev team were actively working on the games PvE and redesigning HoT AFTER it launched. I've mentioned both huge projects they were working on, zone rework and gliding, both of which were only possible to work on AFTER the actual launch. Also given we know it takes around 6 months per living world episode, and given the first episode of season 3 launched in July, the first open world teams started working on this episode as early as January of that year.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    And second - you try to put an equal sign between the raids and open world. The raids designed by the devs from the very beginning to be a niche content played by few players cannot be put on the same level with the open world. The content designed for all the other players. The core of the game. This is the most funny comparation I saw in this debate.

    I am not equating anything. Raids have and always had a niche team work on them. So from a developer resource perspective, and by past official statements, raids were fine and even outperformed initial expectations.

    Here is the issue I have:
    it's not the raid crowd or challenging instanced content crowd that demands resources be stripped from other game modes. At best, player just want the niche team and niche effort which was put into the mode to remain to some extent consistent.

    The truly toxic individuals here are the players who do NOT enjoy raids and demand the game mode gets cut or even deprived of the few resources it had, while most often coming from the part of the game which receives by far the biggest attention bar none, open world and story content. If that is not pure greed, toxicity and selfishness, I don't know what is.

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    The title of this debate was "Top 3 reasons why raids only attracted a small audience". Well, we can add here another reason: The raids attract a small audience because this was the goal of the devs from the very beginning. The situation now is as per devs expectations. No wonder they claim that everything is OK with the raids. So, OP, the audience is not small. It is very good, better than in other games.

    Yes, and the recent doubling down on strike missions seems to indicate that the developers are not interested in giving up on the small niche community while trying actively to empower other players to join, since for years one of the main complaints was lack of access to easy mode raids (something I often disagreed with since I never believed in the need for them to succeed). It's only recently that players have started voicing their dissatisfaction of introductory raids, aka strike missions, proving one of my past points: players who do not want to play instanced content don't care about its difficulty, contrary to what many claimed over the years. I personally believe just having more regular raid content would have been better, yet that ship has sailed.

  • DoRi Silvia.4159DoRi Silvia.4159 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @DoRi Silvia.4159 said:
    Unfortunately this is a really hard topic for us raiders, new players and for the dev's...
    I understand why people are put off raiding from KP and elitism but also as a raider I know why people want kp.

    As someone that was always heavily against raids, i also know and understand why people want KPs, and i do not blame them for doing so. In the end, KPs are not the cause, but merely a symptom of something much deeper. The real problem people have with raids is not that raiders ask for KPs. In the end it is caused by the content practically requiring using some methods of player filtering. And since this is something caused by raid difficulty, and raids are all about being difficult, i don't think it is something that can ever be fixed. Easy mode might be created to not have this flaw, but it's not going to change anything about normal/hard mode. For those, prefiltering group members is always going to happen, because the difficulty of the mode requires it.

    Yes, correct. Creating a easy mode for raids won't change normal mode or cm but that's what we want and need to happen if we are to satisfy players with lesser skill/exp.
    Easy mode will allow these players to taste what raids are like, with a much lesser toxicity level.
    If these players want LI or leggy armor then you progress onto normal mode and really prepare for it (look up snowcrow, use correct build and gear and rotations)
    If that is too hard for some then just simply dont do normal mode as the easy mode will still exist.

    Most players currently wanting to try raids cannot due to kp and experience etc
    Current exp raiders dont want the current normal raid difficulty changed as it is a good challenge.

    Easy mode will allow players to finally get their 8 raid mastery points as well as seeing the lore behind raids and get a sense of clearing it.

    Honestly, easy mode is the only way anet can satisfy both party and interest more players into raiding....( strike mission is not the answer anet!!!!)

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Ultimately, it's players opinion that matters because the impact is on them, so the question is sort of irrelevant.

    Exactly, it's an individual player's opinion. Yet you pretend to be some kind of authority on what's good and what's not...

    OK what are you referring to when you say 'IT'S'? My statement there is in context of what inconsistencies individuals feel impact them negatively. Yes, it's definitely an individuals players opinion if some inconsistency is something they like or not ... and let's be clear ... I have NEVER told ANYONE what inconsistencies they should be good with or not. So no, i'm not pretending I'm some kind of authority on what inconsistencies players should be good with or not ...

    It's definitely NOT an opinion that it's general a pretty bad idea to present customers with inconsistent product offerings. Honestly, at this point, I think your just fishing for things you can create a confusing argument over. You need to take a step back and figure it out; I doubt I can be any more clear for you.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The truly toxic individuals here are the players who do NOT enjoy raids and demand the game mode gets cut or even deprived of the few resources it had, while most often coming from the part of the game which receives by far the biggest attention bar none, open world and story content. If that is not pure greed, toxicity and selfishness, I don't know what is.

    So the casuals comming here whining that they dont have enought KP + getting kicked for low dps or dont use Crow builds/gear +hating dps meters . is toxic ?
    How would you call the people in the other side of the coin ? Where instead of .... you know .... play and keep killng the boss in 3 min .... they are breeding the next generation of '' the likes of them '' in the forums , in an attemp to :
    ''common dont be casual ,
    speed the things up
    i dont want YOU to drag my time , next time i login and see you ''
    (a.k.a 2013 Dungeons)

    Congrats .... the population is devided :
    Whoever wants to do Raids in Berseker , they do
    Whoever dont wanna do it , they dont
    The raids because of low population is discontinued
    Just like the dungeons when they reduced the gold rewards

    What is the grand scimm , that the casuals are boycotying the Raids ?
    Can you see you are shooting your own foot ? No vieweres/Money/Population

    And for what ? speeding up the proccess of ''educating the casuals'' to move their kitten , for once per week Raid ?

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    The title of this debate was "Top 3 reasons why raids only attracted a small audience". Well, we can add here another reason: The raids attract a small audience because this was the goal of the devs from the very beginning. The situation now is as per devs expectations. No wonder they claim that everything is OK with the raids. So, OP, the audience is not small. It is very good, better than in other games.

    Yes, and the recent doubling down on strike missions seems to indicate that the developers are not interested in giving up on the small niche community while trying actively to empower other players to join

    We both know that the history will repeat itself .

    This time , the company in 1 year if they dont see the results needed , they should drop and continue with Strike Misions .
    Having 1 hard boss every month , rather than 3 in 3 months , doesnt matter
    Those niche players regadles what happens , they will move to other games and say : '' the downfall of the game was because of the Casuals and the Companies for not releasing fast enought content'' . Either in 1 year or 5 or how long the game lasts.
    Those players are simply a moving ''burned card''

    Hellsing Abridged.First5minsux. JapAudio: Soul Eater, Arpeggio of Blue Steel,Code Geass
    Seto no Hanayome(startfrom2ndep), Baka to Test,Pani Pon,He Is My Master(2nd) ,Azumanga Daioh
    Kamen no Maid Guy, Kenichi, Ouran Koukou,Yamato Nadeshiko, Rosario+Vampire(2nd)Haré+Guu(5th), AIR MASTER!!!

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2020

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    So the casuals comming here whining that they dont have enought KP + getting kicked for low dps or dont use Crow builds/gear +hating dps meters . is toxic ?

    Yes. Those individuals who think they are above the requirements set by the squad leader and think they are gods gift to this earth who deserve to be the exception are toxic. If they dont want to meet the groups requirements then they shouldnt join the group. They should start their own group, free of the kp dps requirements they hate so much. There are plenty of open worlders who play like them that they can party with to do raids. Why are they trying to force their way into high kp groups?

    Because they lack the expiriance , and are not willing to start something they havent done before ?
    Rather than simply reaching your hand to them , you simply gave them , the same answer like you do now ?
    Forcing people in mega-training -Raids , till they complete their Legendary Set , skipping entrirly the LFG because of the increasing Killproof requiements ?
    Training guild are doing the easier bosses , they get half the KP than normal raiders .
    Plus lack knowleghe about the 3rd boss in each istance , which is the hardest/dont know tactics/trainig group are not doing them

    You can have it
    Dont come back begging them , to come and populate the Raid , so the company can invest more money
    Nor support raid posts into reddit

    Hellsing Abridged.First5minsux. JapAudio: Soul Eater, Arpeggio of Blue Steel,Code Geass
    Seto no Hanayome(startfrom2ndep), Baka to Test,Pani Pon,He Is My Master(2nd) ,Azumanga Daioh
    Kamen no Maid Guy, Kenichi, Ouran Koukou,Yamato Nadeshiko, Rosario+Vampire(2nd)Haré+Guu(5th), AIR MASTER!!!

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The truly toxic individuals here are the players who do NOT enjoy raids and demand the game mode gets cut or even deprived of the few resources it had, while most often coming from the part of the game which receives by far the biggest attention bar none, open world and story content. If that is not pure greed, toxicity and selfishness, I don't know what is.

    So the casuals comming here whining that they dont have enought KP + getting kicked for low dps or dont use Crow builds/gear +hating dps meters . is toxic ?
    How would you call the people in the other side of the coin ? Where instead of .... you know .... play and keep killng the boss in 3 min .... they are breeding the next generation of '' the likes of them '' in the forums , in an attemp to :
    ''common dont be casual ,
    speed the things up
    i dont want YOU to drag my time , next time i login and see you ''
    (a.k.a 2013 Dungeons)

    Congrats .... the population is devided :
    Whoever wants to do Raids in Berseker , they do
    Whoever dont wanna do it , they dont
    The raids because of low population is discontinued
    Just like the dungeons when they reduced the gold rewards

    What is the grand scimm , that the casuals are boycotying the Raids ?
    Can you see you are shooting your own foot ? No vieweres/Money/Population

    And for what ? speeding up the proccess of ''educating the casuals'' to move their kitten ,

    Tbh if you put in lfg for dungeons, slow run all cutscenes, and they start to speed run it wouldn't you call that toxic?

  • DoRi Silvia.4159DoRi Silvia.4159 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2020

    @I Rubra Caelum I.1530 said:
    Before I started raiding, I read forums. All I found was about how toxic raiders are. Reading that got me into not playing raids. Until 3 months ago when I thought I should at least try it. Downloaded discord, got into RA and ran some training here and there, VERY casually. Didn't youtube any boss, didn't use any snowcrows builds, I just did my thing and listened to the instructor. Here I am 3 months later with 136 LI's and enough kp's and I actually started to like raiding. Got into it cause I wanted Coalescence, but after getting it, I think I'm gonna keep on raiding - for me raiding is fun and pretty rewarding. I never got into any toxic elitist group, on the contrary - most groups I've been into were really fun, having fun, making all kind of stupid jokes and just having a blast while raiding. Discord groups or just pugs from LFG - never had a toxic elitist group experience. My advice - don't trust the forums, don't read he forums about how toxic raiders are, but form your own opinion on that, but only after actually putting more than 4 hours (not at once) into basic training (as in learning some of the boss mechanic, cause with time you'll learn bosses pretty good). It takes a while, but you'll see that it's not that bad. Don't take my word for it, but don't take anyone else's word for it either. Just try it yourself. P.S. I'm not a hardcore player, maybe I'm getting close to being an average player.

    This is exactly it and the reason I dont post much raid related things on the forums...
    People who post on the forum about raids are mostly the salty people that have been burnt or is salty about the current raids .. there is not much sense rather alot of negativity and sourness towards raids in the forums....the rest are online clearing

    As he also said, definitely give raiding a go before reading forum posts about it because at the end of the day YOU are to decide if you like it or not