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Top 3 reasons why raids only attracted a small audience

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  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The truly toxic individuals here are the players who do NOT enjoy raids and demand the game mode gets cut or even deprived of the few resources it had, while most often coming from the part of the game which receives by far the biggest attention bar none, open world and story content. If that is not pure greed, toxicity and selfishness, I don't know what is.

    So the casuals comming here whining that they dont have enought KP + getting kicked for low dps or dont use Crow builds/gear +hating dps meters . is toxic ?
    How would you call the people in the other side of the coin ? Where instead of .... you know .... play and keep killng the boss in 3 min .... they are breeding the next generation of '' the likes of them '' in the forums , in an attemp to :
    ''common dont be casual ,
    speed the things up
    i dont want YOU to drag my time , next time i login and see you ''
    (a.k.a 2013 Dungeons)

    First off, access to groups and demand that content gets cut or not supported are two different things, even if one might breed the other.

    But, in order to answer your question:
    Yes, the inexperienced player who joins experienced groups which clearly stated what they are looking for is toxic as kitten. That person puts his own desire, needs and wishes above an entire group of players which have clearly communicated what they are looking for.

    Now, the inexperienced player who actually wants to learn how to raid, who joins groups which are practicing or willing to teach and does not just go for the free loot, that one is not toxic. That player will also notice how a part of the veteran player population is actively supporting new players to enter the game mode. More than any forum whining has ever done btw.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    Congrats .... the population is devided :
    Whoever wants to do Raids in Berseker , they do
    Whoever dont wanna do it , they dont
    The raids because of low population is discontinued
    Just like the dungeons when they reduced the gold rewards
    What is the grand scimm , that the casuals are boycotying the Raids ?
    Can you see you are shooting your own foot ? No vieweres/Money/Population

    And for what ? speeding up the proccess of ''educating the casuals'' to move their kitten , for once per week Raid ?

    You are putting two things together which have nothing to do with each other. I've been raiding since the beginning of HoT (and did dungeons and fractals ever since they got introduced). There has always been players who are better able or willing to adapt to a groups requirements, and those who just want to do their thing without regard to what a collective group might want.

    This has nothing to do with speed running or not. In dungeons this worked to some extent, even while there was toxicity, because the reward at the end was almost guaranteed. Only the time to get it was different. In raids, that's no as simple, since being objectively not good enough due to lack of practice or experience locks the entire group out of rewards.

    As far as the raid community shooting themselves in the own foot, again there is a vast amount of resources AND groups available to new players.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    The title of this debate was "Top 3 reasons why raids only attracted a small audience". Well, we can add here another reason: The raids attract a small audience because this was the goal of the devs from the very beginning. The situation now is as per devs expectations. No wonder they claim that everything is OK with the raids. So, OP, the audience is not small. It is very good, better than in other games.

    Yes, and the recent doubling down on strike missions seems to indicate that the developers are not interested in giving up on the small niche community while trying actively to empower other players to join

    We both know that the history will repeat itself .

    This time , the company in 1 year if they dont see the results needed , they should drop and continue with Strike Misions .
    Having 1 hard boss every month , rather than 3 in 3 months , doesnt matter
    Those niche players regadles what happens , they will move to other games and say : '' the downfall of the game was because of the Casuals and the Companies for not releasing fast enought content'' . Either in 1 year or 5 or how long the game lasts.
    Those players are simply a moving ''burned card''

    Oh I absolutely agree, veteran raiders, or players who enjoy challenging content, are leaving the game currently. I would certainly have taken a break if it wasn't for the current raid static and the people in it as well as my WvW guild.

    @I Rubra Caelum I.1530 said:
    Before I started raiding, I read forums. All I found was about how toxic raiders are. Reading that got me into not playing raids. Until 3 months ago when I thought I should at least try it. Downloaded discord, got into RA and ran some training here and there, VERY casually. Didn't youtube any boss, didn't use any snowcrows builds, I just did my thing and listened to the instructor.

    No no no, that is absolutely impossible. Players who raid are toxic as f. You did it wrong, you were supposed to simply join random groups with high LI/KP requirements, get kicked and then come and complain about how toxic raiders are. Please try again. /s

    @I Rubra Caelum I.1530 said:
    Here I am 3 months later with 136 LI's and enough kp's and I actually started to like raiding. Got into it cause I wanted Coalescence, but after getting it, I think I'm gonna keep on raiding - for me raiding is fun and pretty rewarding. I never got into any toxic elitist group, on the contrary - most groups I've been into were really fun, having fun, making all kind of stupid jokes and just having a blast while raiding. Discord groups or just pugs from LFG - never had a toxic elitist group experience. My advice - don't trust the forums, don't read he forums about how toxic raiders are, but form your own opinion on that, but only after actually putting more than 4 hours (not at once) into basic training (as in learning some of the boss mechanic, cause with time you'll learn bosses pretty good). It takes a while, but you'll see that it's not that bad. Don't take my word for it, but don't take anyone else's word for it either. Just try it yourself. P.S. I'm not a hardcore player, maybe I'm getting close to being an average player.

    On a more serious note, congratulations and it's refreshing to once again read another successful story where someone has started raiding. The content is some of the most fun you can have with a group of people in this game.

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The truly toxic individuals here are the players who do NOT enjoy raids and demand the game mode gets cut or even deprived of the few resources it had, while most often coming from the part of the game which receives by far the biggest attention bar none, open world and story content. If that is not pure greed, toxicity and selfishness, I don't know what is.

    So the casuals comming here whining that they dont have enought KP + getting kicked for low dps or dont use Crow builds/gear +hating dps meters . is toxic ?
    How would you call the people in the other side of the coin ? Where instead of .... you know .... play and keep killng the boss in 3 min .... they are breeding the next generation of '' the likes of them '' in the forums , in an attemp to :
    ''common dont be casual ,
    speed the things up
    i dont want YOU to drag my time , next time i login and see you ''
    (a.k.a 2013 Dungeons)

    First off, access to groups and demand that content gets cut or not supported are two different things, even if one might breed the other.

    But, in order to answer your question:
    Yes, the inexperienced player who joins experienced groups which clearly stated what they are looking for is toxic as kitten. That person puts his own desire, needs and wishes above an entire group of players which have clearly communicated what they are looking for.

    Now, the inexperienced player who actually wants to learn how to raid, who joins groups which are practicing or willing to teach and does not just go for the free loot, that one is not toxic. That player will also notice how a part of the veteran player population is actively supporting new players to enter the game mode. More than any forum whining has ever done btw.

    Caasuals join Training groups , gets half the Killproof per week , because the group only does the easier bosses .
    They KP each week where increasing . By 4 months the requiment where 100 Kp back in the days .
    No casuals could ever gain so much by killing half the bosses , not have the expiriance on the 3rd hard bosses .

    Yes i see the supportiveness of Raiders
    The casuals whine that getting kicked for no meeting the dps standards and not getting inv for the Kp requiments .
    And the Raiders , say that they dont want casuals beause they dont know how to cc or do less than 15k damage , or they dont have Achentand Berseker gear to link ingame .
    The company creates bosses with the assumption ppl will use Open world spec ....10 min before enrage kicks in .... and really scratces its head why you hurry to kill it in 4 ...

    Its 2 world will never coraperate .
    Which is fine :P

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  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2020

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The truly toxic individuals here are the players who do NOT enjoy raids and demand the game mode gets cut or even deprived of the few resources it had, while most often coming from the part of the game which receives by far the biggest attention bar none, open world and story content. If that is not pure greed, toxicity and selfishness, I don't know what is.

    So the casuals comming here whining that they dont have enought KP + getting kicked for low dps or dont use Crow builds/gear +hating dps meters . is toxic ?
    How would you call the people in the other side of the coin ? Where instead of .... you know .... play and keep killng the boss in 3 min .... they are breeding the next generation of '' the likes of them '' in the forums , in an attemp to :
    ''common dont be casual ,
    speed the things up
    i dont want YOU to drag my time , next time i login and see you ''
    (a.k.a 2013 Dungeons)

    First off, access to groups and demand that content gets cut or not supported are two different things, even if one might breed the other.

    But, in order to answer your question:
    Yes, the inexperienced player who joins experienced groups which clearly stated what they are looking for is toxic as kitten. That person puts his own desire, needs and wishes above an entire group of players which have clearly communicated what they are looking for.

    Now, the inexperienced player who actually wants to learn how to raid, who joins groups which are practicing or willing to teach and does not just go for the free loot, that one is not toxic. That player will also notice how a part of the veteran player population is actively supporting new players to enter the game mode. More than any forum whining has ever done btw.

    Caasuals join Training groups , gets half the Killproof per week , because the group only does the easier bosses .

    and?

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    They KP each week where increasing . By 4 months the requiment where 100 Kp back in the days .

    and?

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    No casuals could ever gain so much by killing half the bosses , not have the expiriance on the 3rd hard bosses .

    again, and?

    You are assuming that for casual players the goal should be to join ultra high end speed run groups right the next moment. That assumption in and of its self is deeply flawed. The goal for casual players should be to:

    • get enough experience to be able to clear raid content
    • find players of equal skill and mind to play together with
    • clear content at the pace they are comfortable with
    • improve and become more veteran as time passes on
    • enjoy the journey and the content while doing so

    No, you won't match a near snowcrow level veteran players experience within a few weeks (also there is many levels of "veteran" status. To some a 1 year playing players with 500 LI is veteran, to others, that's a fresh-ling) . Some veterans have YEARS of experience. If you assume you can match that experience by casually doing some bosses left and right, that's a flawed assumption at it's base.

    The good news is: you are never required to become ultra super duper elite to enjoy raid content or even play it regularly (which you are basically assuming since you are only looking at the XYZ high end KP/LI group requirements). As a matter of fact, the vast amount of raiders are not that hardcore to begin with and a few weeks of practice makes any player eligible to join many groups, even on the LFG. Though I would still always recommend players find a supportive raid guild.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    Yes i see the supportiveness of Raiders
    The casuals whine that getting kicked for no meeting the dps standards and not getting inv for the Kp requiments .
    And the Raiders , say that they dont want casuals beause they dont know how to cc or do less than 15k damage , or they dont have Achentand Berseker gear to link ingame .

    Again, if you do not match the KP requirements, that is not the group for you. Stop being toxic and join groups that match your skill level and you will have no issues with dps standards, LI/KP or inexperience. On the contrary, you might even see a lot of people similar to you which will relate a lot better to the problems you might have or face.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    The company creates bosses with the assumption ppl will use Open world spec ....10 min before enrage kicks in .... and really scratces its head why you hurry to kill it in 4

    Raids were designed as challenging group content. You assuming that they were designed around open world builds and inefficiency is on you. That was and certainly is not the case, and never was, for raids or to some extent strike missions. Here is the original announcement:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/raids-in-guild-wars-2/

  • Xentera.4560Xentera.4560 Member ✭✭✭

    In addition to what was said already, the two main reasons IMHO are:

    1) Efforts versus reward. For most people it is not worth it to revisit raids after they got their legendary stuff crafted.

    2) The incredibly stupid mechanics in most raids in which some random player can be randomly selected for a very specific task that if it fails it would result in complete wipe of the party. This strongly discourages people from teaching raids to others, or taking less than experienced players along for raids. It created toxicity among the raid community, and quite understandably so. Nobody wants to spend hours trying to kill a single boss, because some random player keeps failing a certain mechanic. Contrast that with GW1 elite areas, you could easily have a couple of inexperienced players in each party with no issues, as long as they are fulfilling some of the easier roles like dps and support. It is a fundamental problem in the game design itself that is not fixable, so don't expect raids to get any more popular.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    2) The incredibly stupid mechanics in most raids in which some random player can be randomly selected for a very specific task that if it fails it would result in complete wipe of the party.

    This is probably why Wing 1 and Wing 4 are so popular, because most of the fights there don't have those kinds of random selections. The entire Wing 1 can be beaten with 2 to 3 experienced players while the rest just do some damage as if they are in the open world, with only some "follow the tag" action (to rotate around Sabetha during flamewall for example) and maaaaaybe go to green circles on Vale Guardian.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Xentera.4560 said:
    2) The incredibly stupid mechanics in most raids in which some random player can be randomly selected for a very specific task that if it fails it would result in complete wipe of the party.

    This is probably why Wing 1 and Wing 4 are so popular, because most of the fights there don't have those kinds of random selections. The entire Wing 1 can be beaten with 2 to 3 experienced players while the rest just do some damage as if they are in the open world, with only some "follow the tag" action (to rotate around Sabetha during flamewall for example) and maaaaaybe go to green circles on Vale Guardian.

    And also probably why wing 2 is so polarizing. I know both people for which this is the favorite and people for which this is the worst wing.

    It feels like it has the most of these random mechanics.

    As a disclaimer, it's the wing I love the most

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just make new account start out with 250 KPs each. Instanstly fixes everything that is wrong with raids, right?

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    So the casuals comming here whining that they dont have enought KP + getting kicked for low dps or dont use Crow builds/gear +hating dps meters . is toxic ?

    Yes. Those individuals who think they are above the requirements set by the squad leader and think they are gods gift to this earth who deserve to be the exception are toxic. If they dont want to meet the groups requirements then they shouldnt join the group. They should start their own group, free of the kp dps requirements they hate so much. There are plenty of open worlders who play like them that they can party with to do raids. Why are they trying to force their way into high kp groups?

    Because they lack the expiriance , and are not willing to start something they havent done before ?
    Rather than simply reaching your hand to them , you simply gave them , the same answer like you do now ?
    Forcing people in mega-training -Raids , till they complete their Legendary Set , skipping entrirly the LFG because of the increasing Killproof requiements ?
    Training guild are doing the easier bosses , they get half the KP than normal raiders .
    Plus lack knowleghe about the 3rd boss in each istance , which is the hardest/dont know tactics/trainig group are not doing them

    You can have it
    Dont come back begging them , to come and populate the Raid , so the company can invest more money
    Nor support raid posts into reddit

    Except they are. Organized training communities run dhuum sabetha matt all the time. There are plenty of people who WANT to teach you the bosses. I'm not one of them and you are not entitled to my time if I dont want to play with you. Why is it so hard for the gw2 community to take no i dont want to play with you for an answer? This is unlike open world where you are forced to play with everyone including the 10 alts I have leeching meta events and you have no recourse to not carry them.

    I tell them to go join training guilds because I'm not going to waste 9 peoples time waiting for someone to learn something theyve never done before. The average open worlder is so garbage at this game I cant even expect them to be able to target the boss correctly to auto attack it or know how to move while casting so they dont have to dodge roll everything (assuming they can find the dodge key in the first place). Again there are communities who will welcome you with open arms who are happy to hand hold you. Once you've completed the bosses and dont need the hand holding, feel free to join the pugs that you meet the requirements for. Or create a group with all of the other trainees you learned the boss with.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Ultimately, it's players opinion that matters because the impact is on them, so the question is sort of irrelevant.

    Exactly, it's an individual player's opinion. Yet you pretend to be some kind of authority on what's good and what's not...

    OK what are you referring to when you say 'IT'S'? My statement there is in context of what inconsistencies individuals feel impact them negatively. Yes, it's definitely an individuals players opinion if some inconsistency is something they like or not ... and let's be clear ... I have NEVER told ANYONE what inconsistencies they should be good with or not. So no, i'm not pretending I'm some kind of authority on what inconsistencies players should be good with or not ...

    Yet negative impact is up to the player. So you never said that Raids are bad for the game?

    Even if I did, how I feel about raids isn't relevant to the discussion. We are simply talking about why we think raids have such a small audience. I think it's because the game's original audience didn't adopt the game because of raids.

    I know you love to make this about what I feel, but it's not. It's simply a view on what's real. I get you're angry because you love raids and you're going to say anything to dispute any reason someone presents that indicates raids are a negative game impact ... you just need to come to terms with reality.

    The fact is this: The trend in raid development is going to generally follow the trend in it's ROI ... so if raid development slows down to the point where almost no new raids are being released ... that's because they aren't making more money than Anet is putting into them. I'm sure you're going to go off on me about being some authority or whatever because I'm showing some level of understanding that you don't want to accept, but that's not lies I'm making up to argue with you. That's how business works.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Actually at this point it's clear that you lack basic understanding of how businesses, and service providers, work in real life. Offering something new and adding variety to your offerings (which by definition are both "inconsistent offerings" since they did not exist before) is the bread and butter of a successful service provider.

    And again, you can't seem to wrap your head around the fact that i'm not JUST talking about new content. Honestly, I think your just being argumentative at this point because I've qualified what I mean when I refer to that many times ... and the only reason to ignore that qualification is to accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about.

    OK ... try this on then. Anet isn't big on raids like they were before ... and it's not because I don't have a basic understanding of how business works either ... Do I know? Do I not? Again, this isn't about me. Were are just talking about what is real and reasons why. Seems to me that you just don't want to accept that reality, so when someone has a reason for it to exist, you attack them. OK ... I guess it's way easier for you to insult me than talk about a perfectly reasonable explanation of why raids are so small in population.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The truly toxic individuals here are the players who do NOT enjoy raids and demand the game mode gets cut or even deprived of the few resources it had, while most often coming from the part of the game which receives by far the biggest attention bar none, open world and story content. If that is not pure greed, toxicity and selfishness, I don't know what is.

    So the casuals comming here whining that they dont have enought KP + getting kicked for low dps or dont use Crow builds/gear +hating dps meters . is toxic ?
    How would you call the people in the other side of the coin ? Where instead of .... you know .... play and keep killng the boss in 3 min .... they are breeding the next generation of '' the likes of them '' in the forums , in an attemp to :
    ''common dont be casual ,
    speed the things up
    i dont want YOU to drag my time , next time i login and see you ''
    (a.k.a 2013 Dungeons)

    First off, access to groups and demand that content gets cut or not supported are two different things, even if one might breed the other.

    But, in order to answer your question:
    Yes, the inexperienced player who joins experienced groups which clearly stated what they are looking for is toxic as kitten. That person puts his own desire, needs and wishes above an entire group of players which have clearly communicated what they are looking for.

    Now, the inexperienced player who actually wants to learn how to raid, who joins groups which are practicing or willing to teach and does not just go for the free loot, that one is not toxic. That player will also notice how a part of the veteran player population is actively supporting new players to enter the game mode. More than any forum whining has ever done btw.

    Caasuals join Training groups , gets half the Killproof per week , because the group only does the easier bosses .

    and?

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    They KP each week where increasing . By 4 months the requiment where 100 Kp back in the days .

    and?

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    No casuals could ever gain so much by killing half the bosses , not have the expiriance on the 3rd hard bosses .

    again, and?

    You are assuming that for casual players the goal should be to join ultra high end speed run groups right the next moment. That assumption in and of its self is deeply flawed. The goal for casual players should be to:

    • get enough experience to be able to clear raid content
    • find players of equal skill and mind to play together with
    • clear content at the pace they are comfortable with
    • improve and become more veteran as time passes on
    • enjoy the journey and the content while doing so

    No, you won't match a near snowcrow level veteran players experience within a few weeks (also there is many levels of "veteran" status. To some a 1 year playing players with 500 LI is veteran, to others, that's a fresh-ling) . Some veterans have YEARS of experience. If you assume you can match that experience by casually doing some bosses left and right, that's a flawed assumption at it's base.

    The good news is: you are never required to become ultra super duper elite to enjoy raid content or even play it regularly (which you are basically assuming since you are only looking at the XYZ high end KP/LI group requirements). As a matter of fact, the vast amount of raiders are not that hardcore to begin with and a few weeks of practice makes any player eligible to join many groups, even on the LFG. Though I would still always recommend players find a supportive raid guild.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    Yes i see the supportiveness of Raiders
    The casuals whine that getting kicked for no meeting the dps standards and not getting inv for the Kp requiments .
    And the Raiders , say that they dont want casuals beause they dont know how to cc or do less than 15k damage , or they dont have Achentand Berseker gear to link ingame .

    Again, if you do not match the KP requirements, that is not the group for you. Stop being toxic and join groups that match your skill level and you will have no issues with dps standards, LI/KP or inexperience. On the contrary, you might even see a lot of people similar to you which will relate a lot better to the problems you might have or face.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    The company creates bosses with the assumption ppl will use Open world spec ....10 min before enrage kicks in .... and really scratces its head why you hurry to kill it in 4

    Raids were designed as challenging group content. You assuming that they were designed around open world builds and inefficiency is on you. That was and certainly is not the case, and never was, for raids or to some extent strike missions. Here is the original announcement:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/raids-in-guild-wars-2/

    What and and and ?
    Each time the requiments to join the LFG was increased . Casuals wouldnt never catch up in thr LFG standard .

    When it reached 500 , then the LFG start asking from ''gizmos'' or somoethings , where is dropped from last bosses

    When pppl started using the fake Killproof , codes from a site to link ingame , the raiders started going crazy on the Forums
    And told the Casuals , it was a worthless mechanic , because from now on the would ask to link specific amount 397 instead of 500 . If you where not quick enought you had used the fake killrpoof
    (it still works , for whoever wants to join raids now that things have calmed down)

    When Gbmd or whatever the addon was called , started using ''inspect'' option in china , to see your freinds gear . The casuals cried against it and the raiders said it was necessery to come in the West in order to be sured the Casuals had the nessesery gear to be invited .
    If they had this mechanic, they would surely inv more casuals

    True they where ''advertise as challenged group''' ...sigh..
    But the casuals never whined about the raids dificulty .....

    But why raiders should impose such ludicrus demands like :
    Link You gear ...No achentant ? Bye
    Not Enought dps ...Bye
    Did you just die twice ?
    No Killproof ....why ask for inv ?
    AND THJEN THEY CRIED ON THE FORUMS , that the proccess of finidng the ''right'' pppl with right specs ,tooks longer than the Raid ....

    When the casuals come to cry in the forums, the raiders simply created a list ....(allll the kitten time) ... telling the casuals to join Training Guilds and rate each boss dificulty .

    This is a an abusive relatioship ...huh...
    Why shouldthey co-exist ?

    Nurturing a new breed , while hoping the ''burned cards'' to change , is some kind of plan ..
    But you know .. old dogs cannot learn new tricks :P

    Hellsing Abridged.First5minsux. JapAudio: Soul Eater, Arpeggio of Blue Steel,Code Geass
    Seto no Hanayome(startfrom2ndep), Baka to Test,Pani Pon,He Is My Master(2nd) ,Azumanga Daioh
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  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2020

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The truly toxic individuals here are the players who do NOT enjoy raids and demand the game mode gets cut or even deprived of the few resources it had, while most often coming from the part of the game which receives by far the biggest attention bar none, open world and story content. If that is not pure greed, toxicity and selfishness, I don't know what is.

    So the casuals comming here whining that they dont have enought KP + getting kicked for low dps or dont use Crow builds/gear +hating dps meters . is toxic ?
    How would you call the people in the other side of the coin ? Where instead of .... you know .... play and keep killng the boss in 3 min .... they are breeding the next generation of '' the likes of them '' in the forums , in an attemp to :
    ''common dont be casual ,
    speed the things up
    i dont want YOU to drag my time , next time i login and see you ''
    (a.k.a 2013 Dungeons)

    First off, access to groups and demand that content gets cut or not supported are two different things, even if one might breed the other.

    But, in order to answer your question:
    Yes, the inexperienced player who joins experienced groups which clearly stated what they are looking for is toxic as kitten. That person puts his own desire, needs and wishes above an entire group of players which have clearly communicated what they are looking for.

    Now, the inexperienced player who actually wants to learn how to raid, who joins groups which are practicing or willing to teach and does not just go for the free loot, that one is not toxic. That player will also notice how a part of the veteran player population is actively supporting new players to enter the game mode. More than any forum whining has ever done btw.

    Caasuals join Training groups , gets half the Killproof per week , because the group only does the easier bosses .

    and?

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    They KP each week where increasing . By 4 months the requiment where 100 Kp back in the days .

    and?

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    No casuals could ever gain so much by killing half the bosses , not have the expiriance on the 3rd hard bosses .

    again, and?

    You are assuming that for casual players the goal should be to join ultra high end speed run groups right the next moment. That assumption in and of its self is deeply flawed. The goal for casual players should be to:

    • get enough experience to be able to clear raid content
    • find players of equal skill and mind to play together with
    • clear content at the pace they are comfortable with
    • improve and become more veteran as time passes on
    • enjoy the journey and the content while doing so

    No, you won't match a near snowcrow level veteran players experience within a few weeks (also there is many levels of "veteran" status. To some a 1 year playing players with 500 LI is veteran, to others, that's a fresh-ling) . Some veterans have YEARS of experience. If you assume you can match that experience by casually doing some bosses left and right, that's a flawed assumption at it's base.

    The good news is: you are never required to become ultra super duper elite to enjoy raid content or even play it regularly (which you are basically assuming since you are only looking at the XYZ high end KP/LI group requirements). As a matter of fact, the vast amount of raiders are not that hardcore to begin with and a few weeks of practice makes any player eligible to join many groups, even on the LFG. Though I would still always recommend players find a supportive raid guild.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    Yes i see the supportiveness of Raiders
    The casuals whine that getting kicked for no meeting the dps standards and not getting inv for the Kp requiments .
    And the Raiders , say that they dont want casuals beause they dont know how to cc or do less than 15k damage , or they dont have Achentand Berseker gear to link ingame .

    Again, if you do not match the KP requirements, that is not the group for you. Stop being toxic and join groups that match your skill level and you will have no issues with dps standards, LI/KP or inexperience. On the contrary, you might even see a lot of people similar to you which will relate a lot better to the problems you might have or face.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    The company creates bosses with the assumption ppl will use Open world spec ....10 min before enrage kicks in .... and really scratces its head why you hurry to kill it in 4

    Raids were designed as challenging group content. You assuming that they were designed around open world builds and inefficiency is on you. That was and certainly is not the case, and never was, for raids or to some extent strike missions. Here is the original announcement:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/raids-in-guild-wars-2/

    What and and and ?
    Each time the requiments to join the LFG was increased . Casuals wouldnt never catch up in thr LFG standard .

    When it reached 500 , then the LFG start asking from ''gizmos'' or somoethings , where is dropped from last bosses

    When pppl started using the fake Killproof , codes from a site to link ingame , the raiders started going crazy on the Forums
    And told the Casuals , it was a worthless mechanic , because from now on the would ask to link specific amount 397 instead of 500 . If you where not quick enought you had used the fake killrpoof
    (it still works , for whoever wants to join raids now that things have calmed down)

    When Gbmd or whatever the addon was called , started using ''inspect'' option in china , to see your freinds gear . The casuals cried against it and the raiders said it was necessery to come in the West in order to be sured the Casuals had the nessesery gear to be invited .
    If they had this mechanic, they would surely inv more casuals

    True they where ''advertise as challenged group''' ...sigh..
    But the casuals never whined about the raids dificulty .....

    But why raiders should impose such ludicrus demands like :
    Link You gear ...No achentant ? Bye
    Not Enought dps ...Bye
    Did you just die twice ?
    No Killproof ....why ask for inv ?
    AND THJEN THEY CRIED ON THE FORUMS , that the proccess of finidng the ''right'' pppl with right specs ,tooks longer than the Raid ....

    When the casuals come to cry in the forums, the raiders simply created a list ....(allll the kitten time) ... telling the casuals to join Training Guilds and rate each boss dificulty .

    This is a an abusive relatioship ...huh...
    Why shouldthey co-exist ?

    If you cant find people who dont have berserker gear, who cant do rotations, die all if the time with no kill proof then I'm sorry you dont play guild wars 2. That describes 80% of the population in open world. Go to tequatl and you'll easily find 30 people that meet those qualifications that you can group with.if you are one of them, then play with your own kind.

    We are telling you how to find your own success through training and creating your own groups. You're the one that's too busy crying to actually take those steps. There have been hundreds of new raiders who have successfully gotten their legendaries by following the steps outlined by raiders on the forum.

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2020

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The truly toxic individuals here are the players who do NOT enjoy raids and demand the game mode gets cut or even deprived of the few resources it had, while most often coming from the part of the game which receives by far the biggest attention bar none, open world and story content. If that is not pure greed, toxicity and selfishness, I don't know what is.

    So the casuals comming here whining that they dont have enought KP + getting kicked for low dps or dont use Crow builds/gear +hating dps meters . is toxic ?
    How would you call the people in the other side of the coin ? Where instead of .... you know .... play and keep killng the boss in 3 min .... they are breeding the next generation of '' the likes of them '' in the forums , in an attemp to :
    ''common dont be casual ,
    speed the things up
    i dont want YOU to drag my time , next time i login and see you ''
    (a.k.a 2013 Dungeons)

    First off, access to groups and demand that content gets cut or not supported are two different things, even if one might breed the other.

    But, in order to answer your question:
    Yes, the inexperienced player who joins experienced groups which clearly stated what they are looking for is toxic as kitten. That person puts his own desire, needs and wishes above an entire group of players which have clearly communicated what they are looking for.

    Now, the inexperienced player who actually wants to learn how to raid, who joins groups which are practicing or willing to teach and does not just go for the free loot, that one is not toxic. That player will also notice how a part of the veteran player population is actively supporting new players to enter the game mode. More than any forum whining has ever done btw.

    Caasuals join Training groups , gets half the Killproof per week , because the group only does the easier bosses .

    and?

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    They KP each week where increasing . By 4 months the requiment where 100 Kp back in the days .

    and?

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    No casuals could ever gain so much by killing half the bosses , not have the expiriance on the 3rd hard bosses .

    again, and?

    You are assuming that for casual players the goal should be to join ultra high end speed run groups right the next moment. That assumption in and of its self is deeply flawed. The goal for casual players should be to:

    • get enough experience to be able to clear raid content
    • find players of equal skill and mind to play together with
    • clear content at the pace they are comfortable with
    • improve and become more veteran as time passes on
    • enjoy the journey and the content while doing so

    No, you won't match a near snowcrow level veteran players experience within a few weeks (also there is many levels of "veteran" status. To some a 1 year playing players with 500 LI is veteran, to others, that's a fresh-ling) . Some veterans have YEARS of experience. If you assume you can match that experience by casually doing some bosses left and right, that's a flawed assumption at it's base.

    The good news is: you are never required to become ultra super duper elite to enjoy raid content or even play it regularly (which you are basically assuming since you are only looking at the XYZ high end KP/LI group requirements). As a matter of fact, the vast amount of raiders are not that hardcore to begin with and a few weeks of practice makes any player eligible to join many groups, even on the LFG. Though I would still always recommend players find a supportive raid guild.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    Yes i see the supportiveness of Raiders
    The casuals whine that getting kicked for no meeting the dps standards and not getting inv for the Kp requiments .
    And the Raiders , say that they dont want casuals beause they dont know how to cc or do less than 15k damage , or they dont have Achentand Berseker gear to link ingame .

    Again, if you do not match the KP requirements, that is not the group for you. Stop being toxic and join groups that match your skill level and you will have no issues with dps standards, LI/KP or inexperience. On the contrary, you might even see a lot of people similar to you which will relate a lot better to the problems you might have or face.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    The company creates bosses with the assumption ppl will use Open world spec ....10 min before enrage kicks in .... and really scratces its head why you hurry to kill it in 4

    Raids were designed as challenging group content. You assuming that they were designed around open world builds and inefficiency is on you. That was and certainly is not the case, and never was, for raids or to some extent strike missions. Here is the original announcement:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/raids-in-guild-wars-2/

    What and and and ?
    Each time the requiments to join the LFG was increased . Casuals wouldnt never catch up in thr LFG standard .

    When it reached 500 , then the LFG start asking from ''gizmos'' or somoethings , where is dropped from last bosses

    When pppl started using the fake Killproof , codes from a site to link ingame , the raiders started going crazy on the Forums
    And told the Casuals , it was a worthless mechanic , because from now on the would ask to link specific amount 397 instead of 500 . If you where not quick enought you had used the fake killrpoof
    (it still works , for whoever wants to join raids now that things have calmed down)

    When Gbmd or whatever the addon was called , started using ''inspect'' option in china , to see your freinds gear . The casuals cried against it and the raiders said it was necessery to come in the West in order to be sured the Casuals had the nessesery gear to be invited .
    If they had this mechanic, they would surely inv more casuals

    True they where ''advertise as challenged group''' ...sigh..
    But the casuals never whined about the raids dificulty .....

    But why raiders should impose such ludicrus demands like :
    Link You gear ...No achentant ? Bye
    Not Enought dps ...Bye
    Did you just die twice ?
    No Killproof ....why ask for inv ?
    AND THJEN THEY CRIED ON THE FORUMS , that the proccess of finidng the ''right'' pppl with right specs ,tooks longer than the Raid ....

    When the casuals come to cry in the forums, the raiders simply created a list ....(allll the kitten time) ... telling the casuals to join Training Guilds and rate each boss dificulty .

    This is a an abusive relatioship ...huh...
    Why shouldthey co-exist ?

    If you cant find people who dont have berserker gear, who cant do rotations, die all if the time with no kill proof then I'm sorry you dont play guild wars 2. That describes 80% of the population in open world. Go to tequatl and you'll easily find 30 people that meet those qualifications that you can group with.

    We are telling you how to find your own success through training and creating your own groups. You're the one that's too busy crying to actually take those steps. There have been hundreds of new raiders who have successfully gotten their legendaries by following the steps outlined by raiders on the forum.

    Steps outlined by raiders ?
    You mean sticking to Training rooms tilll they complete the Set ?
    Yes they did
    How many continue the abusive relationship afterwards ?:P
    Lets see ..data ...raids..discontinued..hm...
    Incoclusive lets say ?

    (since 13 year old , i healed ppl arses in MMOS - Mu online International ...just dont try to play the victim here .... the co-exist parts is more crusial)

    Hellsing Abridged.First5minsux. JapAudio: Soul Eater, Arpeggio of Blue Steel,Code Geass
    Seto no Hanayome(startfrom2ndep), Baka to Test,Pani Pon,He Is My Master(2nd) ,Azumanga Daioh
    Kamen no Maid Guy, Kenichi, Ouran Koukou,Yamato Nadeshiko, Rosario+Vampire(2nd)Haré+Guu(5th), AIR MASTER!!!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2020

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The truly toxic individuals here are the players who do NOT enjoy raids and demand the game mode gets cut or even deprived of the few resources it had, while most often coming from the part of the game which receives by far the biggest attention bar none, open world and story content. If that is not pure greed, toxicity and selfishness, I don't know what is.

    So the casuals comming here whining that they dont have enought KP + getting kicked for low dps or dont use Crow builds/gear +hating dps meters . is toxic ?
    How would you call the people in the other side of the coin ? Where instead of .... you know .... play and keep killng the boss in 3 min .... they are breeding the next generation of '' the likes of them '' in the forums , in an attemp to :
    ''common dont be casual ,
    speed the things up
    i dont want YOU to drag my time , next time i login and see you ''
    (a.k.a 2013 Dungeons)

    First off, access to groups and demand that content gets cut or not supported are two different things, even if one might breed the other.

    But, in order to answer your question:
    Yes, the inexperienced player who joins experienced groups which clearly stated what they are looking for is toxic as kitten. That person puts his own desire, needs and wishes above an entire group of players which have clearly communicated what they are looking for.

    Now, the inexperienced player who actually wants to learn how to raid, who joins groups which are practicing or willing to teach and does not just go for the free loot, that one is not toxic. That player will also notice how a part of the veteran player population is actively supporting new players to enter the game mode. More than any forum whining has ever done btw.

    Caasuals join Training groups , gets half the Killproof per week , because the group only does the easier bosses .

    and?

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    They KP each week where increasing . By 4 months the requiment where 100 Kp back in the days .

    and?

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    No casuals could ever gain so much by killing half the bosses , not have the expiriance on the 3rd hard bosses .

    again, and?

    You are assuming that for casual players the goal should be to join ultra high end speed run groups right the next moment. That assumption in and of its self is deeply flawed. The goal for casual players should be to:

    • get enough experience to be able to clear raid content
    • find players of equal skill and mind to play together with
    • clear content at the pace they are comfortable with
    • improve and become more veteran as time passes on
    • enjoy the journey and the content while doing so

    No, you won't match a near snowcrow level veteran players experience within a few weeks (also there is many levels of "veteran" status. To some a 1 year playing players with 500 LI is veteran, to others, that's a fresh-ling) . Some veterans have YEARS of experience. If you assume you can match that experience by casually doing some bosses left and right, that's a flawed assumption at it's base.

    The good news is: you are never required to become ultra super duper elite to enjoy raid content or even play it regularly (which you are basically assuming since you are only looking at the XYZ high end KP/LI group requirements). As a matter of fact, the vast amount of raiders are not that hardcore to begin with and a few weeks of practice makes any player eligible to join many groups, even on the LFG. Though I would still always recommend players find a supportive raid guild.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    Yes i see the supportiveness of Raiders
    The casuals whine that getting kicked for no meeting the dps standards and not getting inv for the Kp requiments .
    And the Raiders , say that they dont want casuals beause they dont know how to cc or do less than 15k damage , or they dont have Achentand Berseker gear to link ingame .

    Again, if you do not match the KP requirements, that is not the group for you. Stop being toxic and join groups that match your skill level and you will have no issues with dps standards, LI/KP or inexperience. On the contrary, you might even see a lot of people similar to you which will relate a lot better to the problems you might have or face.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    The company creates bosses with the assumption ppl will use Open world spec ....10 min before enrage kicks in .... and really scratces its head why you hurry to kill it in 4

    Raids were designed as challenging group content. You assuming that they were designed around open world builds and inefficiency is on you. That was and certainly is not the case, and never was, for raids or to some extent strike missions. Here is the original announcement:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/raids-in-guild-wars-2/

    What and and and ?
    Each time the requiments to join the LFG was increased . Casuals wouldnt never catch up in thr LFG standard .

    When it reached 500 , then the LFG start asking from ''gizmos'' or somoethings , where is dropped from last bosses

    When pppl started using the fake Killproof , codes from a site to link ingame , the raiders started going crazy on the Forums
    And told the Casuals , it was a worthless mechanic , because from now on the would ask to link specific amount 397 instead of 500 . If you where not quick enought you had used the fake killrpoof
    (it still works , for whoever wants to join raids now that things have calmed down)

    When Gbmd or whatever the addon was called , started using ''inspect'' option in china , to see your freinds gear . The casuals cried against it and the raiders said it was necessery to come in the West in order to be sured the Casuals had the nessesery gear to be invited .
    If they had this mechanic, they would surely inv more casuals

    True they where ''advertise as challenged group''' ...sigh..
    But the casuals never whined about the raids dificulty .....

    But why raiders should impose such ludicrus demands like :
    Link You gear ...No achentant ? Bye
    Not Enought dps ...Bye
    Did you just die twice ?
    No Killproof ....why ask for inv ?
    AND THJEN THEY CRIED ON THE FORUMS , that the proccess of finidng the ''right'' pppl with right specs ,tooks longer than the Raid ....

    When the casuals come to cry in the forums, the raiders simply created a list ....(allll the kitten time) ... telling the casuals to join Training Guilds and rate each boss dificulty .

    This is a an abusive relatioship ...huh...
    Why shouldthey co-exist ?

    Nurturing a new breed , while hoping the ''burned cards'' to change , is some kind of plan ..
    But you know .. old dogs cannot learn new tricks :P

    You seem to have a hard time comprehending that those 250 KP/LI requirement groups are not for new raiders, and they will never be (until said "new" raider has become veteran enough if so desired). You also seem to have a hard time to understand that there is a vast RANGE of groups with different skills, not only training and high end veteran groups.

    I'm done wasting my time repeating over and over how one can start to raid. If you want a mini guide, read what I Rubra Caelum I.1530 wrote on page 5 of this topic and how he started raiding 1 year ago.

    If you still can't manage to understand how KP and LI work and where new raiders should go and how they should approach entry into raids, I can't help you. Also I doubt you have even 50 LI or KP. If you did, you'd know that there is many different groups and even now there is groups forming around 50, 150, 250, etc LI. and in many of those groups, it;s not fail 1nce and get kicked.

    EDIT: and please leave those nonsense discontinued mods which were used at best by a very very very small group of raiders to prove anything. All it does is show how out of touch you are with which addons get used and/or were used and how they were used.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The truly toxic individuals here are the players who do NOT enjoy raids and demand the game mode gets cut or even deprived of the few resources it had, while most often coming from the part of the game which receives by far the biggest attention bar none, open world and story content. If that is not pure greed, toxicity and selfishness, I don't know what is.

    So the casuals comming here whining that they dont have enought KP + getting kicked for low dps or dont use Crow builds/gear +hating dps meters . is toxic ?
    How would you call the people in the other side of the coin ? Where instead of .... you know .... play and keep killng the boss in 3 min .... they are breeding the next generation of '' the likes of them '' in the forums , in an attemp to :
    ''common dont be casual ,
    speed the things up
    i dont want YOU to drag my time , next time i login and see you ''
    (a.k.a 2013 Dungeons)

    First off, access to groups and demand that content gets cut or not supported are two different things, even if one might breed the other.

    But, in order to answer your question:
    Yes, the inexperienced player who joins experienced groups which clearly stated what they are looking for is toxic as kitten. That person puts his own desire, needs and wishes above an entire group of players which have clearly communicated what they are looking for.

    Now, the inexperienced player who actually wants to learn how to raid, who joins groups which are practicing or willing to teach and does not just go for the free loot, that one is not toxic. That player will also notice how a part of the veteran player population is actively supporting new players to enter the game mode. More than any forum whining has ever done btw.

    Caasuals join Training groups , gets half the Killproof per week , because the group only does the easier bosses .

    and?

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    They KP each week where increasing . By 4 months the requiment where 100 Kp back in the days .

    and?

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    No casuals could ever gain so much by killing half the bosses , not have the expiriance on the 3rd hard bosses .

    again, and?

    You are assuming that for casual players the goal should be to join ultra high end speed run groups right the next moment. That assumption in and of its self is deeply flawed. The goal for casual players should be to:

    • get enough experience to be able to clear raid content
    • find players of equal skill and mind to play together with
    • clear content at the pace they are comfortable with
    • improve and become more veteran as time passes on
    • enjoy the journey and the content while doing so

    No, you won't match a near snowcrow level veteran players experience within a few weeks (also there is many levels of "veteran" status. To some a 1 year playing players with 500 LI is veteran, to others, that's a fresh-ling) . Some veterans have YEARS of experience. If you assume you can match that experience by casually doing some bosses left and right, that's a flawed assumption at it's base.

    The good news is: you are never required to become ultra super duper elite to enjoy raid content or even play it regularly (which you are basically assuming since you are only looking at the XYZ high end KP/LI group requirements). As a matter of fact, the vast amount of raiders are not that hardcore to begin with and a few weeks of practice makes any player eligible to join many groups, even on the LFG. Though I would still always recommend players find a supportive raid guild.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    Yes i see the supportiveness of Raiders
    The casuals whine that getting kicked for no meeting the dps standards and not getting inv for the Kp requiments .
    And the Raiders , say that they dont want casuals beause they dont know how to cc or do less than 15k damage , or they dont have Achentand Berseker gear to link ingame .

    Again, if you do not match the KP requirements, that is not the group for you. Stop being toxic and join groups that match your skill level and you will have no issues with dps standards, LI/KP or inexperience. On the contrary, you might even see a lot of people similar to you which will relate a lot better to the problems you might have or face.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    The company creates bosses with the assumption ppl will use Open world spec ....10 min before enrage kicks in .... and really scratces its head why you hurry to kill it in 4

    Raids were designed as challenging group content. You assuming that they were designed around open world builds and inefficiency is on you. That was and certainly is not the case, and never was, for raids or to some extent strike missions. Here is the original announcement:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/raids-in-guild-wars-2/

    What and and and ?
    Each time the requiments to join the LFG was increased . Casuals wouldnt never catch up in thr LFG standard .

    When it reached 500 , then the LFG start asking from ''gizmos'' or somoethings , where is dropped from last bosses

    When pppl started using the fake Killproof , codes from a site to link ingame , the raiders started going crazy on the Forums
    And told the Casuals , it was a worthless mechanic , because from now on the would ask to link specific amount 397 instead of 500 . If you where not quick enought you had used the fake killrpoof
    (it still works , for whoever wants to join raids now that things have calmed down)

    When Gbmd or whatever the addon was called , started using ''inspect'' option in china , to see your freinds gear . The casuals cried against it and the raiders said it was necessery to come in the West in order to be sured the Casuals had the nessesery gear to be invited .
    If they had this mechanic, they would surely inv more casuals

    True they where ''advertise as challenged group''' ...sigh..
    But the casuals never whined about the raids dificulty .....

    But why raiders should impose such ludicrus demands like :
    Link You gear ...No achentant ? Bye
    Not Enought dps ...Bye
    Did you just die twice ?
    No Killproof ....why ask for inv ?
    AND THJEN THEY CRIED ON THE FORUMS , that the proccess of finidng the ''right'' pppl with right specs ,tooks longer than the Raid ....

    When the casuals come to cry in the forums, the raiders simply created a list ....(allll the kitten time) ... telling the casuals to join Training Guilds and rate each boss dificulty .

    This is a an abusive relatioship ...huh...
    Why shouldthey co-exist ?

    If you cant find people who dont have berserker gear, who cant do rotations, die all if the time with no kill proof then I'm sorry you dont play guild wars 2. That describes 80% of the population in open world. Go to tequatl and you'll easily find 30 people that meet those qualifications that you can group with.

    We are telling you how to find your own success through training and creating your own groups. You're the one that's too busy crying to actually take those steps. There have been hundreds of new raiders who have successfully gotten their legendaries by following the steps outlined by raiders on the forum.

    Steps outlined by raiders ?
    You mean sticking to Training rooms tilll they complete the Set ?
    Yes they did
    How many continue the abusive relationship afterwards ?:P
    Lets see ..data ...raids..discontinued..hm...
    Incoclusive lets say ?

    (since 13 year old , i healed ppl arses in MMOS - Mu online International ...just dont try to play the victim here .... the co-exist parts is more crusial)

    As have many of us (I've been a main tank, healer and damage dealer in multiple MMORPGs before GW2). No, all you are doing at the moment is produce noise with your clearly limited, if at all existent, experience with raids in THIS game.

    If you have a serious desire to raid in this game, do as told and start learning within the appropriate groups.

    If all you want to do is vent and complain on the forums, go on, but it won't progress you in any way forwards towards becoming successful at raids. No one here is complaining besides you.

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The truly toxic individuals here are the players who do NOT enjoy raids and demand the game mode gets cut or even deprived of the few resources it had, while most often coming from the part of the game which receives by far the biggest attention bar none, open world and story content. If that is not pure greed, toxicity and selfishness, I don't know what is.

    So the casuals comming here whining that they dont have enought KP + getting kicked for low dps or dont use Crow builds/gear +hating dps meters . is toxic ?
    How would you call the people in the other side of the coin ? Where instead of .... you know .... play and keep killng the boss in 3 min .... they are breeding the next generation of '' the likes of them '' in the forums , in an attemp to :
    ''common dont be casual ,
    speed the things up
    i dont want YOU to drag my time , next time i login and see you ''
    (a.k.a 2013 Dungeons)

    First off, access to groups and demand that content gets cut or not supported are two different things, even if one might breed the other.

    But, in order to answer your question:
    Yes, the inexperienced player who joins experienced groups which clearly stated what they are looking for is toxic as kitten. That person puts his own desire, needs and wishes above an entire group of players which have clearly communicated what they are looking for.

    Now, the inexperienced player who actually wants to learn how to raid, who joins groups which are practicing or willing to teach and does not just go for the free loot, that one is not toxic. That player will also notice how a part of the veteran player population is actively supporting new players to enter the game mode. More than any forum whining has ever done btw.

    Caasuals join Training groups , gets half the Killproof per week , because the group only does the easier bosses .

    and?

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    They KP each week where increasing . By 4 months the requiment where 100 Kp back in the days .

    and?

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    No casuals could ever gain so much by killing half the bosses , not have the expiriance on the 3rd hard bosses .

    again, and?

    You are assuming that for casual players the goal should be to join ultra high end speed run groups right the next moment. That assumption in and of its self is deeply flawed. The goal for casual players should be to:

    • get enough experience to be able to clear raid content
    • find players of equal skill and mind to play together with
    • clear content at the pace they are comfortable with
    • improve and become more veteran as time passes on
    • enjoy the journey and the content while doing so

    No, you won't match a near snowcrow level veteran players experience within a few weeks (also there is many levels of "veteran" status. To some a 1 year playing players with 500 LI is veteran, to others, that's a fresh-ling) . Some veterans have YEARS of experience. If you assume you can match that experience by casually doing some bosses left and right, that's a flawed assumption at it's base.

    The good news is: you are never required to become ultra super duper elite to enjoy raid content or even play it regularly (which you are basically assuming since you are only looking at the XYZ high end KP/LI group requirements). As a matter of fact, the vast amount of raiders are not that hardcore to begin with and a few weeks of practice makes any player eligible to join many groups, even on the LFG. Though I would still always recommend players find a supportive raid guild.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    Yes i see the supportiveness of Raiders
    The casuals whine that getting kicked for no meeting the dps standards and not getting inv for the Kp requiments .
    And the Raiders , say that they dont want casuals beause they dont know how to cc or do less than 15k damage , or they dont have Achentand Berseker gear to link ingame .

    Again, if you do not match the KP requirements, that is not the group for you. Stop being toxic and join groups that match your skill level and you will have no issues with dps standards, LI/KP or inexperience. On the contrary, you might even see a lot of people similar to you which will relate a lot better to the problems you might have or face.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    The company creates bosses with the assumption ppl will use Open world spec ....10 min before enrage kicks in .... and really scratces its head why you hurry to kill it in 4

    Raids were designed as challenging group content. You assuming that they were designed around open world builds and inefficiency is on you. That was and certainly is not the case, and never was, for raids or to some extent strike missions. Here is the original announcement:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/raids-in-guild-wars-2/

    What and and and ?
    Each time the requiments to join the LFG was increased . Casuals wouldnt never catch up in thr LFG standard .

    When it reached 500 , then the LFG start asking from ''gizmos'' or somoethings , where is dropped from last bosses

    When pppl started using the fake Killproof , codes from a site to link ingame , the raiders started going crazy on the Forums
    And told the Casuals , it was a worthless mechanic , because from now on the would ask to link specific amount 397 instead of 500 . If you where not quick enought you had used the fake killrpoof
    (it still works , for whoever wants to join raids now that things have calmed down)

    When Gbmd or whatever the addon was called , started using ''inspect'' option in china , to see your freinds gear . The casuals cried against it and the raiders said it was necessery to come in the West in order to be sured the Casuals had the nessesery gear to be invited .
    If they had this mechanic, they would surely inv more casuals

    True they where ''advertise as challenged group''' ...sigh..
    But the casuals never whined about the raids dificulty .....

    But why raiders should impose such ludicrus demands like :
    Link You gear ...No achentant ? Bye
    Not Enought dps ...Bye
    Did you just die twice ?
    No Killproof ....why ask for inv ?
    AND THJEN THEY CRIED ON THE FORUMS , that the proccess of finidng the ''right'' pppl with right specs ,tooks longer than the Raid ....

    When the casuals come to cry in the forums, the raiders simply created a list ....(allll the kitten time) ... telling the casuals to join Training Guilds and rate each boss dificulty .

    This is a an abusive relatioship ...huh...
    Why shouldthey co-exist ?

    Nurturing a new breed , while hoping the ''burned cards'' to change , is some kind of plan ..
    But you know .. old dogs cannot learn new tricks :P

    You seem to have a hard time comprehending that those 250 KP/LI requirement groups are not for new raiders...

    I'm done wasting my time repeating over and over how one can start to raid. If you want a mini guide, read what I Rubra Caelum I.1530 wronte on page 5 of this topic.

    If you still can't manage to understand how KP and LI work and where new raiders should go and how they should approach entry into raids, I can't help you.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The truly toxic individuals here are the players who do NOT enjoy raids and demand the game mode gets cut or even deprived of the few resources it had, while most often coming from the part of the game which receives by far the biggest attention bar none, open world and story content. If that is not pure greed, toxicity and selfishness, I don't know what is.

    So the casuals comming here whining that they dont have enought KP + getting kicked for low dps or dont use Crow builds/gear +hating dps meters . is toxic ?
    How would you call the people in the other side of the coin ? Where instead of .... you know .... play and keep killng the boss in 3 min .... they are breeding the next generation of '' the likes of them '' in the forums , in an attemp to :
    ''common dont be casual ,
    speed the things up
    i dont want YOU to drag my time , next time i login and see you ''
    (a.k.a 2013 Dungeons)

    First off, access to groups and demand that content gets cut or not supported are two different things, even if one might breed the other.

    But, in order to answer your question:
    Yes, the inexperienced player who joins experienced groups which clearly stated what they are looking for is toxic as kitten. That person puts his own desire, needs and wishes above an entire group of players which have clearly communicated what they are looking for.

    Now, the inexperienced player who actually wants to learn how to raid, who joins groups which are practicing or willing to teach and does not just go for the free loot, that one is not toxic. That player will also notice how a part of the veteran player population is actively supporting new players to enter the game mode. More than any forum whining has ever done btw.

    Caasuals join Training groups , gets half the Killproof per week , because the group only does the easier bosses .

    and?

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    They KP each week where increasing . By 4 months the requiment where 100 Kp back in the days .

    and?

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    No casuals could ever gain so much by killing half the bosses , not have the expiriance on the 3rd hard bosses .

    again, and?

    You are assuming that for casual players the goal should be to join ultra high end speed run groups right the next moment. That assumption in and of its self is deeply flawed. The goal for casual players should be to:

    • get enough experience to be able to clear raid content
    • find players of equal skill and mind to play together with
    • clear content at the pace they are comfortable with
    • improve and become more veteran as time passes on
    • enjoy the journey and the content while doing so

    No, you won't match a near snowcrow level veteran players experience within a few weeks (also there is many levels of "veteran" status. To some a 1 year playing players with 500 LI is veteran, to others, that's a fresh-ling) . Some veterans have YEARS of experience. If you assume you can match that experience by casually doing some bosses left and right, that's a flawed assumption at it's base.

    The good news is: you are never required to become ultra super duper elite to enjoy raid content or even play it regularly (which you are basically assuming since you are only looking at the XYZ high end KP/LI group requirements). As a matter of fact, the vast amount of raiders are not that hardcore to begin with and a few weeks of practice makes any player eligible to join many groups, even on the LFG. Though I would still always recommend players find a supportive raid guild.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    Yes i see the supportiveness of Raiders
    The casuals whine that getting kicked for no meeting the dps standards and not getting inv for the Kp requiments .
    And the Raiders , say that they dont want casuals beause they dont know how to cc or do less than 15k damage , or they dont have Achentand Berseker gear to link ingame .

    Again, if you do not match the KP requirements, that is not the group for you. Stop being toxic and join groups that match your skill level and you will have no issues with dps standards, LI/KP or inexperience. On the contrary, you might even see a lot of people similar to you which will relate a lot better to the problems you might have or face.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    The company creates bosses with the assumption ppl will use Open world spec ....10 min before enrage kicks in .... and really scratces its head why you hurry to kill it in 4

    Raids were designed as challenging group content. You assuming that they were designed around open world builds and inefficiency is on you. That was and certainly is not the case, and never was, for raids or to some extent strike missions. Here is the original announcement:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/raids-in-guild-wars-2/

    What and and and ?
    Each time the requiments to join the LFG was increased . Casuals wouldnt never catch up in thr LFG standard .

    When it reached 500 , then the LFG start asking from ''gizmos'' or somoethings , where is dropped from last bosses

    When pppl started using the fake Killproof , codes from a site to link ingame , the raiders started going crazy on the Forums
    And told the Casuals , it was a worthless mechanic , because from now on the would ask to link specific amount 397 instead of 500 . If you where not quick enought you had used the fake killrpoof
    (it still works , for whoever wants to join raids now that things have calmed down)

    When Gbmd or whatever the addon was called , started using ''inspect'' option in china , to see your freinds gear . The casuals cried against it and the raiders said it was necessery to come in the West in order to be sured the Casuals had the nessesery gear to be invited .
    If they had this mechanic, they would surely inv more casuals

    True they where ''advertise as challenged group''' ...sigh..
    But the casuals never whined about the raids dificulty .....

    But why raiders should impose such ludicrus demands like :
    Link You gear ...No achentant ? Bye
    Not Enought dps ...Bye
    Did you just die twice ?
    No Killproof ....why ask for inv ?
    AND THJEN THEY CRIED ON THE FORUMS , that the proccess of finidng the ''right'' pppl with right specs ,tooks longer than the Raid ....

    When the casuals come to cry in the forums, the raiders simply created a list ....(allll the kitten time) ... telling the casuals to join Training Guilds and rate each boss dificulty .

    This is a an abusive relatioship ...huh...
    Why shouldthey co-exist ?

    If you cant find people who dont have berserker gear, who cant do rotations, die all if the time with no kill proof then I'm sorry you dont play guild wars 2. That describes 80% of the population in open world. Go to tequatl and you'll easily find 30 people that meet those qualifications that you can group with.

    We are telling you how to find your own success through training and creating your own groups. You're the one that's too busy crying to actually take those steps. There have been hundreds of new raiders who have successfully gotten their legendaries by following the steps outlined by raiders on the forum.

    Steps outlined by raiders ?
    You mean sticking to Training rooms tilll they complete the Set ?
    Yes they did
    How many continue the abusive relationship afterwards ?:P
    Lets see ..data ...raids..discontinued..hm...
    Incoclusive lets say ?

    (since 13 year old , i healed ppl arses in MMOS - Mu online International ...just dont try to play the victim here .... the co-exist parts is more crusial)

    As have many of us (I've been a main tank, healer and damage dealer in multiple MMORPGs before GW2). No, all you are doing at the moment is produce noise with your clearly limited, if at all existent, experience with raids in THIS game.

    If you have a serious desire to raid in this game, do as told and start learning within the appropriate groups.

    If all you want to do is vent and complain on the forums, go on, but it won't progress you in any way forwards towards becoming successful at raids. No one here is complaining besides you.

    Go in training raids , till you get expiriance .
    If you dont have enought KP/LI suck it up
    Theres no toxicity into raids , every1 is welcomed , with flowers and ballons ...
    Its the company problem for realising Wing 4 in Febrouary > PoF in Semptember > Wing 5 in November , that forced the plummet of 67% of the raids population (15,7 % >7,3%)

    Its not like casuals where forced into a loop , trainingto collect more more LFG requiments , THAT THE COMPANY DIDNT EMPOSE .
    And utimetly stayed there , silent , in a more casual expiriance

    I know .... i know .....

    Hellsing Abridged.First5minsux. JapAudio: Soul Eater, Arpeggio of Blue Steel,Code Geass
    Seto no Hanayome(startfrom2ndep), Baka to Test,Pani Pon,He Is My Master(2nd) ,Azumanga Daioh
    Kamen no Maid Guy, Kenichi, Ouran Koukou,Yamato Nadeshiko, Rosario+Vampire(2nd)Haré+Guu(5th), AIR MASTER!!!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2020

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The truly toxic individuals here are the players who do NOT enjoy raids and demand the game mode gets cut or even deprived of the few resources it had, while most often coming from the part of the game which receives by far the biggest attention bar none, open world and story content. If that is not pure greed, toxicity and selfishness, I don't know what is.

    So the casuals comming here whining that they dont have enought KP + getting kicked for low dps or dont use Crow builds/gear +hating dps meters . is toxic ?
    How would you call the people in the other side of the coin ? Where instead of .... you know .... play and keep killng the boss in 3 min .... they are breeding the next generation of '' the likes of them '' in the forums , in an attemp to :
    ''common dont be casual ,
    speed the things up
    i dont want YOU to drag my time , next time i login and see you ''
    (a.k.a 2013 Dungeons)

    First off, access to groups and demand that content gets cut or not supported are two different things, even if one might breed the other.

    But, in order to answer your question:
    Yes, the inexperienced player who joins experienced groups which clearly stated what they are looking for is toxic as kitten. That person puts his own desire, needs and wishes above an entire group of players which have clearly communicated what they are looking for.

    Now, the inexperienced player who actually wants to learn how to raid, who joins groups which are practicing or willing to teach and does not just go for the free loot, that one is not toxic. That player will also notice how a part of the veteran player population is actively supporting new players to enter the game mode. More than any forum whining has ever done btw.

    Caasuals join Training groups , gets half the Killproof per week , because the group only does the easier bosses .

    and?

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    They KP each week where increasing . By 4 months the requiment where 100 Kp back in the days .

    and?

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    No casuals could ever gain so much by killing half the bosses , not have the expiriance on the 3rd hard bosses .

    again, and?

    You are assuming that for casual players the goal should be to join ultra high end speed run groups right the next moment. That assumption in and of its self is deeply flawed. The goal for casual players should be to:

    • get enough experience to be able to clear raid content
    • find players of equal skill and mind to play together with
    • clear content at the pace they are comfortable with
    • improve and become more veteran as time passes on
    • enjoy the journey and the content while doing so

    No, you won't match a near snowcrow level veteran players experience within a few weeks (also there is many levels of "veteran" status. To some a 1 year playing players with 500 LI is veteran, to others, that's a fresh-ling) . Some veterans have YEARS of experience. If you assume you can match that experience by casually doing some bosses left and right, that's a flawed assumption at it's base.

    The good news is: you are never required to become ultra super duper elite to enjoy raid content or even play it regularly (which you are basically assuming since you are only looking at the XYZ high end KP/LI group requirements). As a matter of fact, the vast amount of raiders are not that hardcore to begin with and a few weeks of practice makes any player eligible to join many groups, even on the LFG. Though I would still always recommend players find a supportive raid guild.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    Yes i see the supportiveness of Raiders
    The casuals whine that getting kicked for no meeting the dps standards and not getting inv for the Kp requiments .
    And the Raiders , say that they dont want casuals beause they dont know how to cc or do less than 15k damage , or they dont have Achentand Berseker gear to link ingame .

    Again, if you do not match the KP requirements, that is not the group for you. Stop being toxic and join groups that match your skill level and you will have no issues with dps standards, LI/KP or inexperience. On the contrary, you might even see a lot of people similar to you which will relate a lot better to the problems you might have or face.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    The company creates bosses with the assumption ppl will use Open world spec ....10 min before enrage kicks in .... and really scratces its head why you hurry to kill it in 4

    Raids were designed as challenging group content. You assuming that they were designed around open world builds and inefficiency is on you. That was and certainly is not the case, and never was, for raids or to some extent strike missions. Here is the original announcement:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/raids-in-guild-wars-2/

    What and and and ?
    Each time the requiments to join the LFG was increased . Casuals wouldnt never catch up in thr LFG standard .

    When it reached 500 , then the LFG start asking from ''gizmos'' or somoethings , where is dropped from last bosses

    When pppl started using the fake Killproof , codes from a site to link ingame , the raiders started going crazy on the Forums
    And told the Casuals , it was a worthless mechanic , because from now on the would ask to link specific amount 397 instead of 500 . If you where not quick enought you had used the fake killrpoof
    (it still works , for whoever wants to join raids now that things have calmed down)

    When Gbmd or whatever the addon was called , started using ''inspect'' option in china , to see your freinds gear . The casuals cried against it and the raiders said it was necessery to come in the West in order to be sured the Casuals had the nessesery gear to be invited .
    If they had this mechanic, they would surely inv more casuals

    True they where ''advertise as challenged group''' ...sigh..
    But the casuals never whined about the raids dificulty .....

    But why raiders should impose such ludicrus demands like :
    Link You gear ...No achentant ? Bye
    Not Enought dps ...Bye
    Did you just die twice ?
    No Killproof ....why ask for inv ?
    AND THJEN THEY CRIED ON THE FORUMS , that the proccess of finidng the ''right'' pppl with right specs ,tooks longer than the Raid ....

    When the casuals come to cry in the forums, the raiders simply created a list ....(allll the kitten time) ... telling the casuals to join Training Guilds and rate each boss dificulty .

    This is a an abusive relatioship ...huh...
    Why shouldthey co-exist ?

    Nurturing a new breed , while hoping the ''burned cards'' to change , is some kind of plan ..
    But you know .. old dogs cannot learn new tricks :P

    You seem to have a hard time comprehending that those 250 KP/LI requirement groups are not for new raiders...

    I'm done wasting my time repeating over and over how one can start to raid. If you want a mini guide, read what I Rubra Caelum I.1530 wronte on page 5 of this topic.

    If you still can't manage to understand how KP and LI work and where new raiders should go and how they should approach entry into raids, I can't help you.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The truly toxic individuals here are the players who do NOT enjoy raids and demand the game mode gets cut or even deprived of the few resources it had, while most often coming from the part of the game which receives by far the biggest attention bar none, open world and story content. If that is not pure greed, toxicity and selfishness, I don't know what is.

    So the casuals comming here whining that they dont have enought KP + getting kicked for low dps or dont use Crow builds/gear +hating dps meters . is toxic ?
    How would you call the people in the other side of the coin ? Where instead of .... you know .... play and keep killng the boss in 3 min .... they are breeding the next generation of '' the likes of them '' in the forums , in an attemp to :
    ''common dont be casual ,
    speed the things up
    i dont want YOU to drag my time , next time i login and see you ''
    (a.k.a 2013 Dungeons)

    First off, access to groups and demand that content gets cut or not supported are two different things, even if one might breed the other.

    But, in order to answer your question:
    Yes, the inexperienced player who joins experienced groups which clearly stated what they are looking for is toxic as kitten. That person puts his own desire, needs and wishes above an entire group of players which have clearly communicated what they are looking for.

    Now, the inexperienced player who actually wants to learn how to raid, who joins groups which are practicing or willing to teach and does not just go for the free loot, that one is not toxic. That player will also notice how a part of the veteran player population is actively supporting new players to enter the game mode. More than any forum whining has ever done btw.

    Caasuals join Training groups , gets half the Killproof per week , because the group only does the easier bosses .

    and?

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    They KP each week where increasing . By 4 months the requiment where 100 Kp back in the days .

    and?

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    No casuals could ever gain so much by killing half the bosses , not have the expiriance on the 3rd hard bosses .

    again, and?

    You are assuming that for casual players the goal should be to join ultra high end speed run groups right the next moment. That assumption in and of its self is deeply flawed. The goal for casual players should be to:

    • get enough experience to be able to clear raid content
    • find players of equal skill and mind to play together with
    • clear content at the pace they are comfortable with
    • improve and become more veteran as time passes on
    • enjoy the journey and the content while doing so

    No, you won't match a near snowcrow level veteran players experience within a few weeks (also there is many levels of "veteran" status. To some a 1 year playing players with 500 LI is veteran, to others, that's a fresh-ling) . Some veterans have YEARS of experience. If you assume you can match that experience by casually doing some bosses left and right, that's a flawed assumption at it's base.

    The good news is: you are never required to become ultra super duper elite to enjoy raid content or even play it regularly (which you are basically assuming since you are only looking at the XYZ high end KP/LI group requirements). As a matter of fact, the vast amount of raiders are not that hardcore to begin with and a few weeks of practice makes any player eligible to join many groups, even on the LFG. Though I would still always recommend players find a supportive raid guild.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    Yes i see the supportiveness of Raiders
    The casuals whine that getting kicked for no meeting the dps standards and not getting inv for the Kp requiments .
    And the Raiders , say that they dont want casuals beause they dont know how to cc or do less than 15k damage , or they dont have Achentand Berseker gear to link ingame .

    Again, if you do not match the KP requirements, that is not the group for you. Stop being toxic and join groups that match your skill level and you will have no issues with dps standards, LI/KP or inexperience. On the contrary, you might even see a lot of people similar to you which will relate a lot better to the problems you might have or face.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    The company creates bosses with the assumption ppl will use Open world spec ....10 min before enrage kicks in .... and really scratces its head why you hurry to kill it in 4

    Raids were designed as challenging group content. You assuming that they were designed around open world builds and inefficiency is on you. That was and certainly is not the case, and never was, for raids or to some extent strike missions. Here is the original announcement:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/raids-in-guild-wars-2/

    What and and and ?
    Each time the requiments to join the LFG was increased . Casuals wouldnt never catch up in thr LFG standard .

    When it reached 500 , then the LFG start asking from ''gizmos'' or somoethings , where is dropped from last bosses

    When pppl started using the fake Killproof , codes from a site to link ingame , the raiders started going crazy on the Forums
    And told the Casuals , it was a worthless mechanic , because from now on the would ask to link specific amount 397 instead of 500 . If you where not quick enought you had used the fake killrpoof
    (it still works , for whoever wants to join raids now that things have calmed down)

    When Gbmd or whatever the addon was called , started using ''inspect'' option in china , to see your freinds gear . The casuals cried against it and the raiders said it was necessery to come in the West in order to be sured the Casuals had the nessesery gear to be invited .
    If they had this mechanic, they would surely inv more casuals

    True they where ''advertise as challenged group''' ...sigh..
    But the casuals never whined about the raids dificulty .....

    But why raiders should impose such ludicrus demands like :
    Link You gear ...No achentant ? Bye
    Not Enought dps ...Bye
    Did you just die twice ?
    No Killproof ....why ask for inv ?
    AND THJEN THEY CRIED ON THE FORUMS , that the proccess of finidng the ''right'' pppl with right specs ,tooks longer than the Raid ....

    When the casuals come to cry in the forums, the raiders simply created a list ....(allll the kitten time) ... telling the casuals to join Training Guilds and rate each boss dificulty .

    This is a an abusive relatioship ...huh...
    Why shouldthey co-exist ?

    If you cant find people who dont have berserker gear, who cant do rotations, die all if the time with no kill proof then I'm sorry you dont play guild wars 2. That describes 80% of the population in open world. Go to tequatl and you'll easily find 30 people that meet those qualifications that you can group with.

    We are telling you how to find your own success through training and creating your own groups. You're the one that's too busy crying to actually take those steps. There have been hundreds of new raiders who have successfully gotten their legendaries by following the steps outlined by raiders on the forum.

    Steps outlined by raiders ?
    You mean sticking to Training rooms tilll they complete the Set ?
    Yes they did
    How many continue the abusive relationship afterwards ?:P
    Lets see ..data ...raids..discontinued..hm...
    Incoclusive lets say ?

    (since 13 year old , i healed ppl arses in MMOS - Mu online International ...just dont try to play the victim here .... the co-exist parts is more crusial)

    As have many of us (I've been a main tank, healer and damage dealer in multiple MMORPGs before GW2). No, all you are doing at the moment is produce noise with your clearly limited, if at all existent, experience with raids in THIS game.

    If you have a serious desire to raid in this game, do as told and start learning within the appropriate groups.

    If all you want to do is vent and complain on the forums, go on, but it won't progress you in any way forwards towards becoming successful at raids. No one here is complaining besides you.

    Go in training raids , till you get expiriance .

    Yes, gain experience at the content. We all do it. When the last wing released, I was there practicing with my static and it took us hours to figure everything out (there was no guides out yet, this was literally on release evening progress raiding. We cleared wing 7 around 3 hours after LN and SC). We regularly practice and try to improve. If something goes wrong, we look at logs and see what has to be fixed. Being in a static makes this easier, but the same applies to PUG groups, only that there they need to do those things on the fly.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    If you dont have enought KP/LI suck it up

    LI and KP are meaningless. Those are just poor ways to measure a players potential experience and hopefully ability. The moment they enter the raid and perform or not, those LI/KP are without value and the player will be judged on his ability. I've seen players with very few LI/KP perform greatly, often on their second account. I've seen players with legitimate (and very often faked) LI and KP perform not to the groups requirements.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    Theres no toxicity into raids , every1 is welcomed , with flowers and ballons ...

    Everyone is welcome within groups of their respective level. Yes. If you want to get carried because you are inexperienced, pay people. There is selling guilds for that too.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The truly toxic individuals here are the players who do NOT enjoy raids and demand the game mode gets cut or even deprived of the few resources it had, while most often coming from the part of the game which receives by far the biggest attention bar none, open world and story content. If that is not pure greed, toxicity and selfishness, I don't know what is.

    So the casuals comming here whining that they dont have enought KP + getting kicked for low dps or dont use Crow builds/gear +hating dps meters . is toxic ?
    How would you call the people in the other side of the coin ? Where instead of .... you know .... play and keep killng the boss in 3 min .... they are breeding the next generation of '' the likes of them '' in the forums , in an attemp to :
    ''common dont be casual ,
    speed the things up
    i dont want YOU to drag my time , next time i login and see you ''
    (a.k.a 2013 Dungeons)

    First off, access to groups and demand that content gets cut or not supported are two different things, even if one might breed the other.

    But, in order to answer your question:
    Yes, the inexperienced player who joins experienced groups which clearly stated what they are looking for is toxic as kitten. That person puts his own desire, needs and wishes above an entire group of players which have clearly communicated what they are looking for.

    Now, the inexperienced player who actually wants to learn how to raid, who joins groups which are practicing or willing to teach and does not just go for the free loot, that one is not toxic. That player will also notice how a part of the veteran player population is actively supporting new players to enter the game mode. More than any forum whining has ever done btw.

    Caasuals join Training groups , gets half the Killproof per week , because the group only does the easier bosses .

    and?

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    They KP each week where increasing . By 4 months the requiment where 100 Kp back in the days .

    and?

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    No casuals could ever gain so much by killing half the bosses , not have the expiriance on the 3rd hard bosses .

    again, and?

    You are assuming that for casual players the goal should be to join ultra high end speed run groups right the next moment. That assumption in and of its self is deeply flawed. The goal for casual players should be to:

    • get enough experience to be able to clear raid content
    • find players of equal skill and mind to play together with
    • clear content at the pace they are comfortable with
    • improve and become more veteran as time passes on
    • enjoy the journey and the content while doing so

    No, you won't match a near snowcrow level veteran players experience within a few weeks (also there is many levels of "veteran" status. To some a 1 year playing players with 500 LI is veteran, to others, that's a fresh-ling) . Some veterans have YEARS of experience. If you assume you can match that experience by casually doing some bosses left and right, that's a flawed assumption at it's base.

    The good news is: you are never required to become ultra super duper elite to enjoy raid content or even play it regularly (which you are basically assuming since you are only looking at the XYZ high end KP/LI group requirements). As a matter of fact, the vast amount of raiders are not that hardcore to begin with and a few weeks of practice makes any player eligible to join many groups, even on the LFG. Though I would still always recommend players find a supportive raid guild.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    Yes i see the supportiveness of Raiders
    The casuals whine that getting kicked for no meeting the dps standards and not getting inv for the Kp requiments .
    And the Raiders , say that they dont want casuals beause they dont know how to cc or do less than 15k damage , or they dont have Achentand Berseker gear to link ingame .

    Again, if you do not match the KP requirements, that is not the group for you. Stop being toxic and join groups that match your skill level and you will have no issues with dps standards, LI/KP or inexperience. On the contrary, you might even see a lot of people similar to you which will relate a lot better to the problems you might have or face.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    The company creates bosses with the assumption ppl will use Open world spec ....10 min before enrage kicks in .... and really scratces its head why you hurry to kill it in 4

    Raids were designed as challenging group content. You assuming that they were designed around open world builds and inefficiency is on you. That was and certainly is not the case, and never was, for raids or to some extent strike missions. Here is the original announcement:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/raids-in-guild-wars-2/

    What and and and ?
    Each time the requiments to join the LFG was increased . Casuals wouldnt never catch up in thr LFG standard .

    When it reached 500 , then the LFG start asking from ''gizmos'' or somoethings , where is dropped from last bosses

    When pppl started using the fake Killproof , codes from a site to link ingame , the raiders started going crazy on the Forums
    And told the Casuals , it was a worthless mechanic , because from now on the would ask to link specific amount 397 instead of 500 . If you where not quick enought you had used the fake killrpoof
    (it still works , for whoever wants to join raids now that things have calmed down)

    When Gbmd or whatever the addon was called , started using ''inspect'' option in china , to see your freinds gear . The casuals cried against it and the raiders said it was necessery to come in the West in order to be sured the Casuals had the nessesery gear to be invited .
    If they had this mechanic, they would surely inv more casuals

    True they where ''advertise as challenged group''' ...sigh..
    But the casuals never whined about the raids dificulty .....

    But why raiders should impose such ludicrus demands like :
    Link You gear ...No achentant ? Bye
    Not Enought dps ...Bye
    Did you just die twice ?
    No Killproof ....why ask for inv ?
    AND THJEN THEY CRIED ON THE FORUMS , that the proccess of finidng the ''right'' pppl with right specs ,tooks longer than the Raid ....

    When the casuals come to cry in the forums, the raiders simply created a list ....(allll the kitten time) ... telling the casuals to join Training Guilds and rate each boss dificulty .

    This is a an abusive relatioship ...huh...
    Why shouldthey co-exist ?

    Nurturing a new breed , while hoping the ''burned cards'' to change , is some kind of plan ..
    But you know .. old dogs cannot learn new tricks :P

    You seem to have a hard time comprehending that those 250 KP/LI requirement groups are not for new raiders...

    I'm done wasting my time repeating over and over how one can start to raid. If you want a mini guide, read what I Rubra Caelum I.1530 wronte on page 5 of this topic.

    If you still can't manage to understand how KP and LI work and where new raiders should go and how they should approach entry into raids, I can't help you.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The truly toxic individuals here are the players who do NOT enjoy raids and demand the game mode gets cut or even deprived of the few resources it had, while most often coming from the part of the game which receives by far the biggest attention bar none, open world and story content. If that is not pure greed, toxicity and selfishness, I don't know what is.

    So the casuals comming here whining that they dont have enought KP + getting kicked for low dps or dont use Crow builds/gear +hating dps meters . is toxic ?
    How would you call the people in the other side of the coin ? Where instead of .... you know .... play and keep killng the boss in 3 min .... they are breeding the next generation of '' the likes of them '' in the forums , in an attemp to :
    ''common dont be casual ,
    speed the things up
    i dont want YOU to drag my time , next time i login and see you ''
    (a.k.a 2013 Dungeons)

    First off, access to groups and demand that content gets cut or not supported are two different things, even if one might breed the other.

    But, in order to answer your question:
    Yes, the inexperienced player who joins experienced groups which clearly stated what they are looking for is toxic as kitten. That person puts his own desire, needs and wishes above an entire group of players which have clearly communicated what they are looking for.

    Now, the inexperienced player who actually wants to learn how to raid, who joins groups which are practicing or willing to teach and does not just go for the free loot, that one is not toxic. That player will also notice how a part of the veteran player population is actively supporting new players to enter the game mode. More than any forum whining has ever done btw.

    Caasuals join Training groups , gets half the Killproof per week , because the group only does the easier bosses .

    and?

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    They KP each week where increasing . By 4 months the requiment where 100 Kp back in the days .

    and?

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    No casuals could ever gain so much by killing half the bosses , not have the expiriance on the 3rd hard bosses .

    again, and?

    You are assuming that for casual players the goal should be to join ultra high end speed run groups right the next moment. That assumption in and of its self is deeply flawed. The goal for casual players should be to:

    • get enough experience to be able to clear raid content
    • find players of equal skill and mind to play together with
    • clear content at the pace they are comfortable with
    • improve and become more veteran as time passes on
    • enjoy the journey and the content while doing so

    No, you won't match a near snowcrow level veteran players experience within a few weeks (also there is many levels of "veteran" status. To some a 1 year playing players with 500 LI is veteran, to others, that's a fresh-ling) . Some veterans have YEARS of experience. If you assume you can match that experience by casually doing some bosses left and right, that's a flawed assumption at it's base.

    The good news is: you are never required to become ultra super duper elite to enjoy raid content or even play it regularly (which you are basically assuming since you are only looking at the XYZ high end KP/LI group requirements). As a matter of fact, the vast amount of raiders are not that hardcore to begin with and a few weeks of practice makes any player eligible to join many groups, even on the LFG. Though I would still always recommend players find a supportive raid guild.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    Yes i see the supportiveness of Raiders
    The casuals whine that getting kicked for no meeting the dps standards and not getting inv for the Kp requiments .
    And the Raiders , say that they dont want casuals beause they dont know how to cc or do less than 15k damage , or they dont have Achentand Berseker gear to link ingame .

    Again, if you do not match the KP requirements, that is not the group for you. Stop being toxic and join groups that match your skill level and you will have no issues with dps standards, LI/KP or inexperience. On the contrary, you might even see a lot of people similar to you which will relate a lot better to the problems you might have or face.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    The company creates bosses with the assumption ppl will use Open world spec ....10 min before enrage kicks in .... and really scratces its head why you hurry to kill it in 4

    Raids were designed as challenging group content. You assuming that they were designed around open world builds and inefficiency is on you. That was and certainly is not the case, and never was, for raids or to some extent strike missions. Here is the original announcement:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/raids-in-guild-wars-2/

    What and and and ?
    Each time the requiments to join the LFG was increased . Casuals wouldnt never catch up in thr LFG standard .

    When it reached 500 , then the LFG start asking from ''gizmos'' or somoethings , where is dropped from last bosses

    When pppl started using the fake Killproof , codes from a site to link ingame , the raiders started going crazy on the Forums
    And told the Casuals , it was a worthless mechanic , because from now on the would ask to link specific amount 397 instead of 500 . If you where not quick enought you had used the fake killrpoof
    (it still works , for whoever wants to join raids now that things have calmed down)

    When Gbmd or whatever the addon was called , started using ''inspect'' option in china , to see your freinds gear . The casuals cried against it and the raiders said it was necessery to come in the West in order to be sured the Casuals had the nessesery gear to be invited .
    If they had this mechanic, they would surely inv more casuals

    True they where ''advertise as challenged group''' ...sigh..
    But the casuals never whined about the raids dificulty .....

    But why raiders should impose such ludicrus demands like :
    Link You gear ...No achentant ? Bye
    Not Enought dps ...Bye
    Did you just die twice ?
    No Killproof ....why ask for inv ?
    AND THJEN THEY CRIED ON THE FORUMS , that the proccess of finidng the ''right'' pppl with right specs ,tooks longer than the Raid ....

    When the casuals come to cry in the forums, the raiders simply created a list ....(allll the kitten time) ... telling the casuals to join Training Guilds and rate each boss dificulty .

    This is a an abusive relatioship ...huh...
    Why shouldthey co-exist ?

    If you cant find people who dont have berserker gear, who cant do rotations, die all if the time with no kill proof then I'm sorry you dont play guild wars 2. That describes 80% of the population in open world. Go to tequatl and you'll easily find 30 people that meet those qualifications that you can group with.

    We are telling you how to find your own success through training and creating your own groups. You're the one that's too busy crying to actually take those steps. There have been hundreds of new raiders who have successfully gotten their legendaries by following the steps outlined by raiders on the forum.

    Steps outlined by raiders ?
    You mean sticking to Training rooms tilll they complete the Set ?
    Yes they did
    How many continue the abusive relationship afterwards ?:P
    Lets see ..data ...raids..discontinued..hm...
    Incoclusive lets say ?

    (since 13 year old , i healed ppl arses in MMOS - Mu online International ...just dont try to play the victim here .... the co-exist parts is more crusial)

    As have many of us (I've been a main tank, healer and damage dealer in multiple MMORPGs before GW2). No, all you are doing at the moment is produce noise with your clearly limited, if at all existent, experience with raids in THIS game.

    If you have a serious desire to raid in this game, do as told and start learning within the appropriate groups.

    If all you want to do is vent and complain on the forums, go on, but it won't progress you in any way forwards towards becoming successful at raids. No one here is complaining besides you.

    Go in training raids , till you get expiriance .

    Yes, gain experience at the content. We all do it. When the last wing released, I was there practicing with my static and it took us hours to figure everything out (there was no guides out yet, this was literally on release evening progress raiding. We cleared wing 7 around 3 hours after LN and SC). We regularly practice and try to improve. If something goes wrong, we look at logs and see what has to be fixed. Being in a static makes this easier, but the same applies to PUG groups, only that there they need to do those things on the fly.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    If you dont have enought KP/LI suck it up

    LI and KP are meaningless. Those are just poor ways to measure a players potential experience and hopefully ability. The moment they enter the raid and perform or not, those LI/KP are without value and the player will be judged on his ability. I've seen players with very few LI/KP perform greatly, often on their second account. I've seen players with legitimate (and very often faked) LI and KP perform not to the groups requirements.

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    Theres no toxicity into raids , every1 is welcomed , with flowers and ballons ...

    Everyone is welcome within groups of their respective level. Yes. If you want to get carried because you are inexperienced, pay people. There is selling guilds for that too.

    ''selling guilds''
    Yes there are people that benefit from that , collecting 1000 gold per run
    Hm , maybe i start such a service :P

    Hellsing Abridged.First5minsux. JapAudio: Soul Eater, Arpeggio of Blue Steel,Code Geass
    Seto no Hanayome(startfrom2ndep), Baka to Test,Pani Pon,He Is My Master(2nd) ,Azumanga Daioh
    Kamen no Maid Guy, Kenichi, Ouran Koukou,Yamato Nadeshiko, Rosario+Vampire(2nd)Haré+Guu(5th), AIR MASTER!!!

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2020

    Just examples of extremes. On one side, players had bad experienced joining and not try again. On the other, players had a fair share experiences being dragged down by inexperienced players. Both side have their own justification. While there are which compromised or found another way to work towards their mutual goal.

    ''selling guilds''
    Yes there are people that benefit from that , collecting 1000 gold per run
    Hm , maybe i start such a service :P

    Lots can be said about it, reason why and even more curious why players are paying for it (Do get it, more of is it necessary?). Everyone and anyone can start this service, as long as no conflict and what's paid is delivered. Like many others, for starters requires familiarity and practice. If everyone can do it, will the service still be necessary?

    What are the odds for a buyer to learn raid experience(?) Eg. mechanics, bosses, teamwork, achievement etc. The difference between buying and earning a cert.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Klypto.1703 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Klypto.1703 said:
    Then the whole anet company motto was play how you want to play and raids specifically threw their whole mission statement out of the window especially when dealing with the ban/kicking its just never going to work.

    Please don't abuse this "mission statement" or rather design promise. It was never said in the context you are using it as. It was stated in the context that any content will reward the player and as such, players are not funneled into very specific content for rewards (like traditional MMORPG where eventually specific content became useless reward wise).

    Also while at it, please stop using the term mission statement. The closest thing to a mission statement for Arenanet is:

    We bring art to life. We're ArenaNet. We make the games we want to play a reality, and infuse them with innovation, hand-crafted detail, and creative passion

    While at it, the original design manifesto for GW2 supports this statement:
    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/

    Neither of the two make mention of your supposed mission statement. That term has a specific meaning, please adhere to it.

    Otherwise, I agree with most things you said.

    So you are missing the whole thing where they say play as you want.

    I didn't miss this. They never stated this in the context you used it. You are free to find the original citation and check yourself. This issue has been a topic of debate many times over the years and it gets tiresome that some players still miss use this quote.

    @Klypto.1703 said:
    Also telling people how to think and how they should do things is the entire mindset of why content like this is avoided at all costs. It was approachable in theory when you could just dive into it as playing as you want but then that changed and then people quit trying strike missions.

    Where is anyone telling you how to think? The only correction I made is that you are using the term "mission statement" incorrectly since this term has an actual defined meaning in the context of business: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_statement

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    I cannot agree with this - in my opinion the raids were important (forced by ANet to be important). Because of NO other content (except raids) released for almost 1 year after HoT launch everything revolved around raids. Even the most basic thing, absolutely normal in any other game - awarding experience - was related with the raids. You want XP - that means a spirit shard every level-up? You need to raid. This means absolutely no effect on players? Also, for the legendary armor - every player knew that it will require LI. And the LI drops from raid bosses. So, even if the armor was not ingame from the start, the players actually stored LI to craft it. No effect on players?

    So, another reason to the OP question - why raids attract only a small audience: The legendary armor has been acquired by the ones wanting it. And now, without it, the raids started to be unappealing even for them (or for some of them at least). If we "strip" the raids of the armor, we can see how attractive is a "naked" raid.

    and as pointed out by me, the actual amount of developers working on raids has been minimal. I don't care what your opinion is when we have actual facts which disprove that raid development took away resources of other game content or are to blame for content delay in a significant manner. The size of the developer team for raids IS/WAS KNOWN. (PS. the content gap was 3/4 of a year between HoTs release and LWS3 Episode 1, if we omit the reworks of HoT maps in January and the implementation of gliding.)

    As far as raid appeal, I can only speak from the communities I am part of, but the main reasons currently why players of my caliber, similar caliber or higher/lower caliber, are leaving the content (I'm at 1.7k LI and 500+ LD) has nothing to do with legendary armor (we've had that covered many times over).
    It's based on 3 things:

    • over all amount of players has dropped, reducing player numbers across all game modes
    • there has not been any new content in ages
    • there is no prospect for future raid content

    If you think LI are a major factor almost 5 years in (the top LI player in gw2eff is at 3.2k) for veteran raiders, you are wrong. Yes, having LD be basically useless did not help the longevity, but these are side issues for an entire community. Lack of content is and always has been the main factor for decline, and that is CONSISTENT WITH EVERY GAME MODE in this game.

    As far as new raiders and less experienced raiders, I've mentioned that I have witnessed new groups forming even now (I personally know of a guild which is closing in on clearing W 1-4 and they started around 2-3 months back). But when more and more players leave the game mode, it becomes more and more difficult to pass on knowledge (just look at the smaller and smaller amount of damage benchmarks, guides and updates provided to the community). If the veterans leave, it has an effect on everybody.

    TL;DR:
    It becomes more and more evident that "raids" have become the boogeyman for some players and are to blame for nearly every issue the game has. No matter if facts or logic might dictate otherwise.

    Well to be fair, there was a huge push on A-nets part to get people into raiding. I was there when the first raid wing released and I remember the cadence when really outside of living world raids were getting all the attention, and even then they said it only attracted a Niche audience. However those who didn't like or even care about raids wouldn't and those who hate them would only be pushed further away from them.

    Now we have strike missions where they try to push this idea that anyone doing them, would actually maybe discover they might like raiding. This is wrong on every level and it comes from several places that it is wrong.

    1. They are not rewarding enough to get the average player to devote time to them. (And they can't be so that they don't diminish raiding.)
    2. They are not intuitive or even that interesting, and its a fight you have already done in most cases or a raid fight changed to fit into the parameters of the scenario. (Twin-koda is literally like Twin Largos without the split.)
    3. Those who didn't want to do that type of content still wont do it, and we now have lost probably a good chunk of the people who raided on the regular. They have moved on to other games and so that minority known as the raiding community, has officially become the smallest part of the guild wars 2 community. (I believe they stated recently that is under 10%.)
    4. They didn't offer enough cadence and reasons for raiders to continue doing them once their journey was done; Such as secret boss encounters or hidden rooms with a bonus enemy. And a lot of the time raiders are so prepared and skilled with the fights due to them not really having as much differences as it would be needed to challenge them, so they breeze through it. So the audience gets bored quickly because they are done, and the new people that might come aren't coming as they are not interested or simply dont care. (A new player would be so pre-occupied doing everything else, raids would be the last thing on their mind.)
    5. A-net has also seemed to have dropped the content, I believe raids are dead (They have yet to state otherwise.) And I believe unless strikes manage to change the perception and consumption of raids by the community (By increasing the numbers) Then the content will enter into the same fate as dungeons, with strikes being the fractal version of them.

    But this also has to deal with the fact, that the biggest thing holding the raiding community back and raids from being more consumed and accessible is the community surrounding them. You can sit here and bark on the forums all you want but the kind of shenanigans I see in game is a turn off, its even entered into strikes and many people just really don't want to deal with it. And its been this way since the start, no one wants to enter in and pay a training group their gold or sit there and be told how to play when the game itself LITERALLY says play how you want. So this will never catch on unless they either A. make raids more accessible to everyone, and not have them cater to the meta and slay the meta by homogenizing everything to be on the same playing field. OR B. They simply drop the content, and try something new that won't have the stigma of its raiding community, and the stigma left over from games people are fleeing from to refuge here. The average player of guild wars 2 will NOT MAKE THAT JUMP, especially when they can get legendary armor (The real carrot on the raid stick) from other sources. Even if they didn't like pvp, zerg surfing in WvW with music blasting and just face-rolling would be more fun than dealing with someone bashing on you for making a mistake in a raid. (This does depend on the sever, maguuma is pretty bad depending on the time of day in their chat.)

    I believe visions of the past, strikes and fractals will be our PvE end-game going forward. Visions would be solo dungeons perhaps or something similar, a story with challenge to it and strikes/fractals will be your raiding/dungeon experience. The time of finding groups and taking the time to set up a raid, is done and its being proven by other games as well with raiding slowly dwindling in popularity. Even WoW has other ways to gear now for those who don't want to raid, and the raid gear while slightly better wont save you in PvP or some such if you suck at your class and can't play. Its much more cost efficient, and lucrative to appeal to everyone sadly and money is what is important and rules the world. A-net is no different, raiding doesn't bring in the big bucks and the population for it now has dwindled and as such there might not be a reason to continue forward. (Note I might not raid anymore, or like the raiding community but I don't want anyone's content to be removed or dead. We all want the game to succeed and its fun for us in different ways; But with how the climate is now I just can't see raids surviving unless A-net does something big to revive it. And that might not be in the cards at this stage....)

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    We are simply talking about why we think raids have such a small audience. I think it's because the game's original audience didn't adopt the game because of raids.

    Which doesn't explain why they were successful, as proven by developer comments about their success, and their intent to have faster releases. So the "original audience" argument is irrelevant to the current small audience of Raids. If the playerbase didn't like Raids, they would've died before Path of Fire.

    The fact is this: The trend in raid development is going to generally follow the trend in it's ROI ...

    Exactly. So saying we'll get faster releases, and that they got more than expected players to run them, means what about Raid ROI? To supplement the above, those comments mean Raid ROI used to be fine, one more reason why the playerbase not liking them isn't exactly high on the list of reasons why Raids failed.
    Now if we look at it today, of course their ROI is bad and we see that they scrapped Raids. The end result is not under dispute, the reasons for reaching this point are.

    OK ... try this on then. Anet isn't big on raids like they were before ... and it's not because I don't have a basic understanding of how business works either ...

    Raids didn't attract a small audience, they retained a small audience, there is a big difference there. And they retained a small audience because of their schedule, lack of interesting rewards, lack of vision and tying them to episode releases (which got delayed, causing delays in Raid release too)

    I believe if Mythright Gambit was released when it was expected to, we wouldn't be having this discussion. If it was released in July 2016 for example it would've been only 6 months after Hall of Chains, which is the expected Raid development cadence (they said it took a team 5-6 months to make a Wing)

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2020

    Some interesting points on the topic here:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8vn1t1/long_live_the_lich_ama_summary/

    Next raid is essentially done, and only waiting for late-stage development assets, like VO for example

    Mythright Gambit was almost done in June 2016... it was released in September 2016 instead. It was delayed for 3 months because the higher ups decided to tie Raids with Episode releases.

    Raids and Fractals are the same team working on two different products. Our cadence is currently integrated with Living World episode releases. You'll see the next raid before the next fractal, as that is how we have staggered development.

    Not only were releases tied to Episodes, but they made it so we got a Raid and Fractal on different Episodes and then alternating between them. This way of thinking is what killed both Raids and Fractals. Content was done but couldn't be released.

    I'd like to see that cadence improved as well, and it is something we are actively being discussed internally. You're not the only one that wants to get new raid wings out the door more regularly

    During Long Live the Lich in June 2016 they were -still- discussing more regular Raid wing releases.

    I wish I could give you numbers on cadence, but I will say that the third raid wing for this season is already in early production.

    Until Summer 2016 Raids were fine, this puts a nail in the coffin of the argument regarding their popularity with the playerbase.
    Raids didn't die, they were murdered. By incompetent release schedules

    Wanted to make this aimed at the entire thread.

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2020

    What was the participation rate in Wing 1 + 2 +3 +4 ?
    Stayed the same ? Got lower ? Increase ?

    edit; let me finish my science project and sleep properly for 3 days , not thinking that something will go wrong ..

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/c2okm6/raid_encounter_completion_rate_according_to/

    (btw any1 from the Training Guilds is here ? Are you doing the easy bosses in Wing 6+7 ?
    IS Slothausar such a hard boss that forbits your entry towards the second boss ..which is easier ? Should they change position ?)

    Hellsing Abridged.First5minsux. JapAudio: Soul Eater, Arpeggio of Blue Steel,Code Geass
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  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 This exactly. Raids didn't die, they let them die.

    Our community is like a sinking ship. People seem to focus their attention on bringing in new blood. It does about as much as trying to empty this ship with a bucket. Others then get angry over them insisting on buckets. Any kitchen strainer should be allowed. Something more pointless than even using buckets.
    These measures may prolong our suffering but they will not stop anything. The only way to make sure this ship will survive is the focus on closing the holes as soon as possible. There are huge holes in the raid releases. Holes big enough to eventually sink this ship.

    Introduce a proper release schedule. Make sure achievements equal those of Dhuum CM or anything slightly below that. Experienced statics shouldn't finish all of them in a day or two. Keep people busy and interested. Allow new players to come into a healthy community that actually needs them. It is really that simple.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2020

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    True they where ''advertise as challenged group''' ...sigh..
    But the casuals never whined about the raids dificulty .....

    Some did. Most didn't, but only because most of the casuals either didn;t bother to try raids out in the first place, or simply they do not post on forums or reddit. In the end, though, the difficulty is the basic cause of all the problems you have brought up here. People being very strict about who they will group with, toxicity, general unfriendliness towards new players - all are a result of content (content, not players) having very strict requirements for player skill and experience.

    But why raiders should impose such ludicrus demands like :
    Link You gear ...No achentant ? Bye
    Not Enought dps ...Bye
    Did you just die twice ?
    No Killproof ....why ask for inv ?
    AND THJEN THEY CRIED ON THE FORUMS , that the proccess of finidng the ''right'' pppl with right specs ,tooks longer than the Raid ....

    Because a lot of people that tried to do raids originally was simply not up to par with the encounter difficulty, which made the whole affair much harder for everyone else, even when the players that were experienced/skilled enough could still make it even while under the burden of the inexperienced ones. And, of course, most of the time it simply didn;t work at all - the remaining players were simply unable to compensate.
    The situation is still like this, by the way. There may be less new/inexperienced/less skilled players willing to try raids out, but there are still enough of them to make prefeiltering a necessity. Unless you're okay with spending several hours wiping over and over again at a single boss, ending the day with nothing for your effort.

    Yes, creating a group takes more time than raiding, but if you don't bother to prefilter who are you going to group with, you run a very serious risk of the whole affair taking even longer - and without a success at the end.

    When the casuals come to cry in the forums, the raiders simply created a list ....(allll the kitten time) ... telling the casuals to join Training Guilds and rate each boss dificulty .

    And what would you expect them to do? Spend their time on only training new players, instead of raiding, which is what they want to do? Would You be willing to spend most of your time in the game on training new players over and over again, for years?

    This is a an abusive relatioship ...huh...

    I don't see one, though. What i see is trying to mix two different group of players in a content that doesn't allow for that. Notice, that any toxicity at the point where those groups mix in the end is caused by the content, not the players. Yes, a lot of players might probably be a lot nicer about that, but i very much understand where they are coming from, and why you can't reasonably expect them to suddenly start inviting new/inexperienced players with open hands.

    Why shouldthey co-exist ?

    They shouldn't. Not in this content anyway, because it is designed to actively punish players for trying to do that.

    If you want to appoint a blame, do not point your finger at the players. Blame the content.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Which doesn't explain why they were successful, as proven by developer comments about their success

    In the many years of GW2 history, i've heard some developer comments about how they're satisfied with a feature and how one is a success about many things that clearly weren't. Including build templates lately. So, i wouldn't be putting too much faith in that one single statement. They obviously weren't succesful enough for Anet to justify putting more resources into them, or even to keep the original level of investment - and that (unlike a very indefinite and ambigious statement) is a hard fact.
    Actions, not words, remember?

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2020

    ....sorry double post , see above for reddit posts about aid encounter completion rate
    Plz mod delete this post

    Hellsing Abridged.First5minsux. JapAudio: Soul Eater, Arpeggio of Blue Steel,Code Geass
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    Kamen no Maid Guy, Kenichi, Ouran Koukou,Yamato Nadeshiko, Rosario+Vampire(2nd)Haré+Guu(5th), AIR MASTER!!!

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    What was the participation rate in Wing 1 + 2 +3 +4 ?
    Stay the same ? Got lower ? Increase ?

    edit; let me finish my science project and sleep properly for 3 days , not thinking that my desision was wrong ..

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/c2okm6/raid_encounter_completion_rate_according_to/

    From earlier in this thread:

    Last of Forsaken Thicket was released on June 14, 2016
    Bastion of the Penitent: February 8, 2017 (8 months later)
    Hall of Chains: November 28, 2017 (9 months later BUT with an EXPANSION released during that time)
    Mythright Gambit: September 18, 2018 (10 months later, no expansion)
    The Key of Ahdashim: June 11, 2019 (9 months later)

    Raids had a terrible release cadence, forcing players to stop running them. Hall of Chains being hard and lacking any meaningful rewards didn't help either.

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    What was the participation rate in Wing 1 + 2 +3 +4 ?
    Stay the same ? Got lower ? Increase ?

    edit; let me finish my science project and sleep properly for 3 days , not thinking that my desision was wrong ..

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/c2okm6/raid_encounter_completion_rate_according_to/

    From earlier in this thread:

    Last of Forsaken Thicket was released on June 14, 2016
    Bastion of the Penitent: February 8, 2017 (8 months later)
    Hall of Chains: November 28, 2017 (9 months later BUT with an EXPANSION released during that time)
    Mythright Gambit: September 18, 2018 (10 months later, no expansion)
    The Key of Ahdashim: June 11, 2019 (9 months later)

    Raids had a terrible release cadence, forcing players to stop running them. Hall of Chains being hard and lacking any meaningful rewards didn't help either.

    The stats remained the same from Wing 1-4
    https://external-preview.redd.it/tDV0kSOSG8vedevplddG4tFXBNfKDre-X-wvhD4Q-bI.png?auto=webp&s=d300baf629f2d1b82033c7f494bd0373c9721e3a
    Slothzor was such a @ball , that reduced the entrance to most casuals it seems
    The sudenly drop in Wing 5 (just as the PoF was released) , it was because adverrtized towerds the non-casuals? (which is good)
    Wing 6 have the same raid participation (but they had advertized them in Reddit , that it would be the Wing 4 difficulty)

    Now the key question : is Training Guilds (where most silly casuals resideds) , are they going to do 6+7 ?
    PPl need expiriance first and then step into the real thing .
    How casuals will get the new LI (killproof) , if training guilds are not doing that ? What ? asking in LFG ?

    You can transfrom LI into KP (i think)
    And there easy bosses to maximize your KP per week

    Hellsing Abridged.First5minsux. JapAudio: Soul Eater, Arpeggio of Blue Steel,Code Geass
    Seto no Hanayome(startfrom2ndep), Baka to Test,Pani Pon,He Is My Master(2nd) ,Azumanga Daioh
    Kamen no Maid Guy, Kenichi, Ouran Koukou,Yamato Nadeshiko, Rosario+Vampire(2nd)Haré+Guu(5th), AIR MASTER!!!

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    In the many years of GW2 history, i've heard some developer comments about how they're satisfied with a feature and how one is a success about many things that clearly weren't. Including build templates lately. So, i wouldn't be putting too much faith in that one single statement. They obviously weren't succesful enough for Anet to justify putting more resources into them, or even to keep the original level of investment - and that (unlike a very indefinite and ambigious statement) is a hard fact.

    It wasn't one comment regarding their release cadence though, they repeated it over and over for many months.

    Actions, not words, remember?

    Exactly. They were discussing internally to have a faster release schedule, they -promised- a faster release schedule, but in the end all we got was... delays. Which is why Raids died.

    Edit: if someone is making comments about releasing more of something, then that means that something wasn't a failure that didn't justify putting more resources on it. Words and actions in that case were conflicting.

    Edit 2: do note that the delays on Raids had very little to do with Raids themselves, their popularity/difficulty or their investment. It's clear that Mythright Gambit was ready for release months earlier and it was held back by external reasons, namely the ridiculous scheduling. Same thing happened with Fractals

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Edit: if someone is making comments about releasing more of something, then that means that something wasn't a failure that didn't justify putting more resources on it. Words and actions in that case were conflicting.

    Sure. Of course, the question is whether it was the actions, or the words that didn't reflect the reality behind the whole situation. Honstly, it wouldn't have been the first (or last) case where Anet was, let's say, overenthusiastic about their work.

    Edit 2: do note that the delays on Raids had very little to do with Raids themselves, their popularity/difficulty or their investment. It's clear that Mythright Gambit was ready for release months earlier and it was held back by external reasons, namely the ridiculous scheduling. Same thing happened with Fractals

    That's a fair point - they probably shouldn't have limited themselves to the LS scheduling. Unless there were some other considerations we don't know anything about that played an important factor here, of course.

    I still don't think they would have been able to maintain a release schedule that would have been satisfying to the raider community. Not without spending way, way more resources on raids than they did - more than they were ready to spend.

    In the end, i'm not so sure that having Mythright Gambit released 2 months earlier would have made a lot of difference.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I still don't think they would have been able to maintain a release schedule that would have been satisfying to the raider community. Not without spending way, way more resources on raids than they did - more than they were ready to spend.

    The key here is that the resources they spent on Raids were producing content faster than they were willing to release it (for whatever external reasons). What effect a different schedule would have on Raids is anyone's guess, for some it would make no difference, for others it would mean everything.

  • @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:
    ''selling guilds''
    Yes there are people that benefit from that , collecting 1000 gold per run
    Hm , maybe i start such a service :P

    I wish i would get 1k Gold per run.
    Yeah, you make good gold with selling, but 1k gold per run is blowing it out of the water. Thats not even close to what you get after one fullrun.

  • Captain Kuro.8937Captain Kuro.8937 Member ✭✭
    edited March 12, 2020

    If Raids are the purpose of such silly arguments , then a Dev in his spare time can mask his indentity and create a fake LI generator program to be used from a third party site , or any kind future problem they are trying to avoid/limit in the design progress .
    Then whiners , will keep whining for others silly things .

    Be Right Back My Lord - Desolation

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Now the key question : is Training Guilds (where most silly casuals resideds) , are they going to do 6+7 ?

    There are static groups formed, but don't expect many (lot of reasons for this, it will derail :smile: ). Most casuals initial goal is the Legendary Armor, which doesn't requires the later Raid Wings. Some stayed, some didn't after obtaining or before obtaining(myriad of reasons here, again :smile:).
    KP is another topic and derailing

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I still don't think they would have been able to maintain a release schedule that would have been satisfying to the raider community. Not without spending way, way more resources on raids than they did - more than they were ready to spend.

    The key here is that the resources they spent on Raids were producing content faster than they were willing to release it (for whatever external reasons).

    It's a bit more complicated than that. Remember, when they finished W6, they didn't just stop working for those next 2-3 months, doing nothing. They were doing something - whether that something was W7, or something else entirely i can't tell, but it's not a case of producing content faster than releasing it. It's a case of release schedule and development schedule not aligning.

    By the way, you don't know how long it really took them to develop W6. It's quite probable, after all, that the same situation happened then, and they have started working on it even before W5 got released.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I still don't think they would have been able to maintain a release schedule that would have been satisfying to the raider community. Not without spending way, way more resources on raids than they did - more than they were ready to spend.

    The key here is that the resources they spent on Raids were producing content faster than they were willing to release it (for whatever external reasons).

    It's a bit more complicated than that. Remember, when they finished W6, they didn't just stop working for those next 2-3 months, doing nothing. They were doing something - whether that something was W7, or something else entirely i can't tell, but it's not a case of producing content faster than releasing it. It's a case of release schedule and development schedule not aligning.

    By the way, you don't know how long it really took them to develop W6. It's quite probable, after all, that the same situation happened then, and they have started working on it even before W5 got released.

    I think the comment was clear, Mythright Gambit was ready by June 2016 and the Key of Ahdashim was already under development at that point. The something they were doing is Fractals, because they combined the two teams into one, effectively killing both by giving them alternating release windows, while also releasing together with episodes.

    My comment about producing content faster than their release date was about Mythright Gambit being confirmed -nearly- done 3 months earlier than its actual release. When they started development isn't really important, they had it ready, that's all that matters. Maybe not for future releases, but at the very least Mythright could've been released in early July 2016. The difference it would've made is debatable and not really important, but it would've made some difference no matter how small, releasing 3 months earlier was bound to be a positive thing. How positive? No clue. The truth of the matter is that scheduling was a major factor in what killed Raids (and Fractals) and it's clear that it could've been avoided by a better schedule, not by allocating more resources.

    But that's in the past, hopefully they won't repeat the same mistake when (if?) they re-start Fractals and let them release when they are ready instead.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    We are simply talking about why we think raids have such a small audience. I think it's because the game's original audience didn't adopt the game because of raids.

    Which doesn't explain why they were successful, as proven by developer comments about their success, and their intent to have faster releases.

    No it doesn't ... but that's not the question anyways. I get it ... you want to show they were, at some point, successful to justify that Anet ruined your game experience by doing something bad to something good. That's fantastic, but it's not relevant. The fact remains that if raids met ROI target, they would still be around. The level of development is going to be a good indicator the level of revenue. As someone already mentioned, raids are like a 'brand' and when brands don't perform, they go away.

    Frankly, if you look at it, what you are really saying is that Raids aren't revenue-sustaining content. Seems you think Anet purposefully trashed raids inspite of themselves (which sounds completely stupid to begin with) ... or maybe Anet throttling back on raids was a much more sensible and reasonable business decision. Of course, that's nonsense to someone like you with an axe to grind. That's awesome. Hopefully Anet does the right thing and looks at who's paying their rent ... and acts accordingly. #consistencyinofferings

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • For me, I'm fine with cookie cutter "builds" existing. I don't like being told "no this profession will not be used in this raid". Wow gets lots of hate for many things, but at least the idea of "Bring the player not the spec" should apply to GW raids as well.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    We are simply talking about why we think raids have such a small audience. I think it's because the game's original audience didn't adopt the game because of raids.

    Which doesn't explain why they were successful, as proven by developer comments about their success, and their intent to have faster releases.

    No it doesn't ... but that's not the question anyways.

    It IS the question. You claimed that raids weren't successful because the original audience didn't adopt the game because of Raids, if that was the case Raids would've failed a long time ago.

    I get it ... you want to show they were, at some point, successful to justify that Anet ruined your game experience by doing something bad to something good.

    Because it's a fact that it was good and Anet ruined the experience by their inconsistent cadence and failed release schedule?

    The fact remains that if raids met ROI target, they would still be around.

    The fact remains that if raids didn't meet the ROI target they would've failed a long time ago. Also the fact remains that content can miss their target by decisions that have nothing to do with it. Like scheduling/delay issues. You think the content drought before Heart of Thorns played no role in the revenue of the game? You think the lack of episodes after the release of Heart of Thorns played no role in the revenue of the game? If you do, that's awesome, but far away from reality. Was it the fault of Season 2 that revenue dropped during the content drought between it and Heart of Thorns. Delays hurt I'm not sure how can this be disputed.

    Seems you think Anet purposefully trashed raids inspite of themselves

    Because all facts indicate that they did. Delaying the release of a Raid wing by 3 full months, although it was ready, shows us that.

    Of course, that's nonsense to someone like you with an axe to grind.

    Of course scheduling issues and delays mean nothing to someone with such a passion against Raids to begin with.

    consistencyinofferings

    Fortunately Anet doesn't follow that, otherwise we'd still have one-time events, as that was their way of offering content.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    We are simply talking about why we think raids have such a small audience. I think it's because the game's original audience didn't adopt the game because of raids.

    Which doesn't explain why they were successful, as proven by developer comments about their success, and their intent to have faster releases.

    No it doesn't ... but that's not the question anyways.

    It IS the question. You claimed that raids weren't successful because the original audience didn't adopt the game because of Raids, if that was the case Raids would've failed a long time ago.

    I get it ... you want to show they were, at some point, successful to justify that Anet ruined your game experience by doing something bad to something good.

    Because it's a fact that it was good and Anet ruined the experience by their inconsistent cadence and failed release schedule?

    The fact remains that if raids met ROI target, they would still be around.

    The fact remains that if raids didn't meet the ROI target they would've failed a long time ago. Also the fact remains that content can miss their target by decisions that have nothing to do with it. Like scheduling/delay issues. You think the content drought before Heart of Thorns played no role in the revenue of the game? You think the lack of episodes after the release of Heart of Thorns played no role in the revenue of the game? If you do, that's awesome, but far away from reality. Was it the fault of Season 2 that revenue dropped during the content drought between it and Heart of Thorns. Delays hurt I'm not sure how can this be disputed.

    Seems you think Anet purposefully trashed raids inspite of themselves

    Because all facts indicate that they did. Delaying the release of a Raid wing by 3 full months, although it was ready, shows us that.

    Of course, that's nonsense to someone like you with an axe to grind.

    Of course scheduling issues and delays mean nothing to someone with such a passion against Raids to begin with.

    consistencyinofferings

    Fortunately Anet doesn't follow that, otherwise we'd still have one-time events, as that was their way of offering content.

    I have to admit, the last paragraph made me chuckle. :)

  • Xentera.4560Xentera.4560 Member ✭✭✭

    Raids were destined to fail. The vast majority of players won't do difficult content just for the sake of doing it. Most players would do content they deem rewarding. Give raids an ez mode for training, give them more rewards and there ya have it, raid revival.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    We are simply talking about why we think raids have such a small audience. I think it's because the game's original audience didn't adopt the game because of raids.

    Which doesn't explain why they were successful, as proven by developer comments about their success, and their intent to have faster releases.

    No it doesn't ... but that's not the question anyways.

    It IS the question. You claimed that raids weren't successful because the original audience didn't adopt the game because of Raids, if that was the case Raids would've failed a long time ago.

    I get it ... you want to show they were, at some point, successful to justify that Anet ruined your game experience by doing something bad to something good.

    Because it's a fact that it was good and Anet ruined the experience by their inconsistent cadence and failed release schedule?

    The fact remains that if raids met ROI target, they would still be around.

    The fact remains that if raids didn't meet the ROI target they would've failed a long time ago. Also the fact remains that content can miss their target by decisions that have nothing to do with it. Like scheduling/delay issues. You think the content drought before Heart of Thorns played no role in the revenue of the game? You think the lack of episodes after the release of Heart of Thorns played no role in the revenue of the game? If you do, that's awesome, but far away from reality. Was it the fault of Season 2 that revenue dropped during the content drought between it and Heart of Thorns. Delays hurt I'm not sure how can this be disputed.

    Seems you think Anet purposefully trashed raids inspite of themselves

    Because all facts indicate that they did. Delaying the release of a Raid wing by 3 full months, although it was ready, shows us that.

    Of course, that's nonsense to someone like you with an axe to grind.

    Of course scheduling issues and delays mean nothing to someone with such a passion against Raids to begin with.

    consistencyinofferings

    Fortunately Anet doesn't follow that, otherwise we'd still have one-time events, as that was their way of offering content.

    Sure, if you say so. I'm really just at the point where I don't think you are listening to what I'm saying anyways. Hopefully you find a way to get past your unhappiness about the game instead of thinking blaming Anet or ignoring how things work is going to fix something. Raids are being throttled back and that's not because Anet loves to not make money or give things to people they want. It's a business reason and a huge factor in business reasons is related to revenues and profits. I know you talked yourself into the fact that Raids were this big money-printing machine for Anet in GW2 ... I see no evidence of that. The fact that raids throttled back suggests the opposite.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 14, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    We are simply talking about why we think raids have such a small audience. I think it's because the game's original audience didn't adopt the game because of raids.

    Which doesn't explain why they were successful, as proven by developer comments about their success, and their intent to have faster releases.

    No it doesn't ... but that's not the question anyways.

    It IS the question. You claimed that raids weren't successful because the original audience didn't adopt the game because of Raids, if that was the case Raids would've failed a long time ago.

    I get it ... you want to show they were, at some point, successful to justify that Anet ruined your game experience by doing something bad to something good.

    Because it's a fact that it was good and Anet ruined the experience by their inconsistent cadence and failed release schedule?

    The fact remains that if raids met ROI target, they would still be around.

    The fact remains that if raids didn't meet the ROI target they would've failed a long time ago. Also the fact remains that content can miss their target by decisions that have nothing to do with it. Like scheduling/delay issues. You think the content drought before Heart of Thorns played no role in the revenue of the game? You think the lack of episodes after the release of Heart of Thorns played no role in the revenue of the game? If you do, that's awesome, but far away from reality. Was it the fault of Season 2 that revenue dropped during the content drought between it and Heart of Thorns. Delays hurt I'm not sure how can this be disputed.

    Seems you think Anet purposefully trashed raids inspite of themselves

    Because all facts indicate that they did. Delaying the release of a Raid wing by 3 full months, although it was ready, shows us that.

    Of course, that's nonsense to someone like you with an axe to grind.

    Of course scheduling issues and delays mean nothing to someone with such a passion against Raids to begin with.

    consistencyinofferings

    Fortunately Anet doesn't follow that, otherwise we'd still have one-time events, as that was their way of offering content.

    Sure, if you say so. I'm really just at the point where I don't think you are listening to what I'm saying anyways. Hopefully you find a way to get past your unhappiness about the game instead of thinking blaming Anet or ignoring how things work is going to fix something. Raids are being throttled back and that's not because Anet loves to not make money or give things to people they want. It's a business reason and a huge factor in business reasons is related to revenues and profits. I know you talked yourself into the fact that Raids were this big money-printing machine for Anet in GW2 ... I see no evidence of that. The fact that raids throttled back suggests the opposite.

    Raids weren't the money printing-machince but they were (still are but in a smaller scale) a solid part of the game that kept enough players playing. What the anti-raid crowd is forgetting in every new tirade against raids is the fact that the overwhelming majority of raiders are playing the open world content as well including achievement hunting, weapon & armor collections. They are also playing PvP & WvW and don't have raids as their main focus but a consistent thing in their game schedule. Scrapping raids still took a solid part of their gaming experience away and it's more than clear that overall this route in abandoning almost everything but open world had to fail as we all are unquestionably able to see in revenue numbers. A 25% decrease is not due to a few people aren't buying some armor sets or skins. It was a massive efflux of money what happened. And it remains to be proven if they can stop that kind of downfall with future quality releases in every aspect of the game. Open world PvE only isn't the way to go here even if you or some others here think that it should be. You were shown to be miserably wrong.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Sure, if you say so. I'm really just at the point where I don't think you are listening to what I'm saying anyways.

    Actually I think you aren't reading what is being typed here. I never argued the results of what happened to Raids, I dispute how we got here, more specifically your idea about the ONLY reason Raids failed:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1177909/#Comment_1177909

    There is really just ONE reason raids aren't all that popular ... because it's not the kind of content that most of the people that play this game want to do.

    If after all the evidence provided you still think that was the only reason Raids failed then it's like discussing with a wall. Delays hurt, bad schedules hurt, I'm not sure how can that be under dispute.

    Even after you yourself realized that your argumentation doesn't explain their continuing growth for 2 years.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1186352/#Comment_1186352

    Which doesn't explain why they were successful, as proven by developer comments about their success, and their intent to have faster releases.

    No it doesn't

    If Raids as content were so bad then why did they release the Whisper of Jormag Strike Mission which is equal to many Raid bosses in challenge? We'll see the future Strike Missions and what kind of path they will follow. Even without adding more Raids, we will see how they will affect future content.

  • hellsqueen.3045hellsqueen.3045 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Stalvros.9217 said:
    At least, that's just the statistics that we can see from gw2 efficiency? (Only less then 5% of the population that registered their API with the site has Legendary Insight?)

    29.989% of the 223,689 accounts tracked on gw2 efficiency have killed Vale Guardian.

    So the OP is wrong about Raids attracting small audience. We even had comments by the developers telling us that Raids exceeded their expectations in terms of popularity. But that was during Heart of Thorns, when the game had a more active overall population.

    The highest number of the Key of Adhasim is 6.094% and it does look bad, but we have to take into account that the active population is also much lower now

    It's not a problem with the population of Raids, it's a problem with the population of the game.

    But how many people were carried through the earliest raids in order to unlock the mastery track and then never touched it again because they didn't like the environment there?
    How many people are still selling raid wing runs for that purpose?

    You can't say that just because people killed Vale Guardian, it means that the Raiding Community was strong when people are just trying to get their masteries and move on.

    I got carried through my first raid only so I could get the masteries because I couldn't find an available group that wasn't filled with a bunch of jargon that I couldn't compete with.

    I haven't consistently raided EVER since.
    You can't accurately tell from that simple GW2 efficiency stat whether or not those completions are people who continued to raid consistently or if they ditched the content immediately after they got what they needed. It does not tell you whether or not the raiding community was ever strong.

    Founder of Affinitus Nemus [AFNM]
    "Join Us, We're Lonely" - Our Guild At Some Point

    JUST LIKE THE LORAX, WE SPEAK FOR THE TREES!

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 14, 2020

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    You can't accurately tell from that simple GW2 efficiency stat whether or not those completions are people who continued to raid consistently or if they ditched the content immediately after they got what they needed.

    That's true for all types of content, I'm not sure how (or why) it only applies to Raids. For example, is Drakkar a successful boss? Or it gets players running it because they need achievements there? Is Grothmar Valley populated because players love playing there, or because they are still missing their achievements there? Is Insert any zone or content popular because it requires repetition for achievements/rewards or because players love it?

  • hellsqueen.3045hellsqueen.3045 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    You can't accurately tell from that simple GW2 efficiency stat whether or not those completions are people who continued to raid consistently or if they ditched the content immediately after they got what they needed.

    That's true for all types of content, I'm not sure how (or why) it only applies to Raids. For example, is Drakkar a successful boss? Or it gets players running it because they need achievements there? Is Grothmar Valley populated because players love playing there, or because they are still missing their achievements there? Is Insert any zone or content popular because it requires repetition for achievements/rewards or because players love it?

    Yeah, I am not arguing that.

    However, enough people will still be going to those maps due to various other dailies and repetitive things (like ascended trinkets) they need there that people will keep doing it and that is just how it goes because the story keeps happening. There are pretty significant turn outs for story. I would say the development team does not judge the success on the maps but more on how many people are turning out for the next story and how many people are going through alts and completing said stories, etc.

    How many people are doing that for raids?
    How many people after getting their masteries decided any of that experience was worth their time to:

    • enjoy the content it produced?
    • farm things they needed? (ascended armor, weapons, trinkets, etc)
    • farm the achievements?

    I know I have very few achievements through raids because other than the ones I happened to get on the few things I have participated in, I haven't bothered to even care for getting those ones, even though I hunt AP like moths fly to light. For me the struggle of getting to do raids, with people that won't make the experience fun for me isn't worth it.

    Founder of Affinitus Nemus [AFNM]
    "Join Us, We're Lonely" - Our Guild At Some Point

    JUST LIKE THE LORAX, WE SPEAK FOR THE TREES!

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    However, enough people will still be going to those maps due to various other dailies and repetitive things (like ascended trinkets) they need there that people will keep doing it and that is just how it goes because the story keeps happening.

    Raids can be repeated only once per week and they do provide access to Ascended gear. The question was to compare content with content, using the gw2efficiency data in a vacuum is indeed a bad idea but it can be used to make comparisons.

    There are pretty significant turn outs for story. I would say the development team does not judge the success on the maps but more on how many people are turning out for the next story and how many people are going through alts and completing said stories, etc.

    It would be nice to have data for that in order to compare. Also it's important to note that stories got much shorter recently, and also have tie ins with events on the map to prolong their duration. That's probably intentional to keep players busy on the map, regardless if they want to leave and go do something else instead.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:

    But how many people were carried through the earliest raids in order to unlock the mastery track and then never touched it again because they didn't like the environment there?
    How many people are still selling raid wing runs for that purpose?

    At the time - when it was obligatory to unlock the mastery track for getting spirit shards again - the overwhelming majority did that by doing escort. One of the easiest encounters of all bosses if not the easiest.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2020

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    We are simply talking about why we think raids have such a small audience. I think it's because the game's original audience didn't adopt the game because of raids.

    Which doesn't explain why they were successful, as proven by developer comments about their success, and their intent to have faster releases.

    No it doesn't ... but that's not the question anyways.

    It IS the question. You claimed that raids weren't successful because the original audience didn't adopt the game because of Raids, if that was the case Raids would've failed a long time ago.

    I get it ... you want to show they were, at some point, successful to justify that Anet ruined your game experience by doing something bad to something good.

    Because it's a fact that it was good and Anet ruined the experience by their inconsistent cadence and failed release schedule?

    The fact remains that if raids met ROI target, they would still be around.

    The fact remains that if raids didn't meet the ROI target they would've failed a long time ago. Also the fact remains that content can miss their target by decisions that have nothing to do with it. Like scheduling/delay issues. You think the content drought before Heart of Thorns played no role in the revenue of the game? You think the lack of episodes after the release of Heart of Thorns played no role in the revenue of the game? If you do, that's awesome, but far away from reality. Was it the fault of Season 2 that revenue dropped during the content drought between it and Heart of Thorns. Delays hurt I'm not sure how can this be disputed.

    Seems you think Anet purposefully trashed raids inspite of themselves

    Because all facts indicate that they did. Delaying the release of a Raid wing by 3 full months, although it was ready, shows us that.

    Of course, that's nonsense to someone like you with an axe to grind.

    Of course scheduling issues and delays mean nothing to someone with such a passion against Raids to begin with.

    consistencyinofferings

    Fortunately Anet doesn't follow that, otherwise we'd still have one-time events, as that was their way of offering content.

    Sure, if you say so. I'm really just at the point where I don't think you are listening to what I'm saying anyways. Hopefully you find a way to get past your unhappiness about the game instead of thinking blaming Anet or ignoring how things work is going to fix something. Raids are being throttled back and that's not because Anet loves to not make money or give things to people they want. It's a business reason and a huge factor in business reasons is related to revenues and profits. I know you talked yourself into the fact that Raids were this big money-printing machine for Anet in GW2 ... I see no evidence of that. The fact that raids throttled back suggests the opposite.

    Raids weren't the money printing-machince but they were (still are but in a smaller scale) a solid part of the game that kept enough players playing.

    I don't know that and neither do you. But you know who does? Anet ... and if that were true ... we will still have raids. I'm not lying here: if the ROI was there, we would still have raids.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Sure, if you say so. I'm really just at the point where I don't think you are listening to what I'm saying anyways.

    Actually I think you aren't reading what is being typed here. I never argued the results of what happened to Raids, I dispute how we got here, more specifically your idea about the ONLY reason Raids failed:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1177909/#Comment_1177909

    There is really just ONE reason raids aren't all that popular ... because it's not the kind of content that most of the people that play this game want to do.

    If after all the evidence provided you still think that was the only reason Raids failed then it's like discussing with a wall. Delays hurt, bad schedules hurt, I'm not sure how can that be under dispute.

    Even after you yourself realized that your argumentation doesn't explain their continuing growth for 2 years.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1186352/#Comment_1186352

    Which doesn't explain why they were successful, as proven by developer comments about their success, and their intent to have faster releases.

    No it doesn't

    If Raids as content were so bad then why did they release the Whisper of Jormag Strike Mission which is equal to many Raid bosses in challenge? We'll see the future Strike Missions and what kind of path they will follow. Even without adding more Raids, we will see how they will affect future content.

    Yup, you're right. You got it all figured out. Raids were super successful, the best thing that ever happened to this game ... and Anet screwed them over .. for some reason that defies good business sense.

    ... the convoluted conspiracy theory approach where the corporation tries hard to destroy their own existence, for whatever reason ... instead of the more logical explanation where raids declined because of being an unpopular brand with it's customers. Gotcha. #makessense. :+1: Whatever works for you.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/