Top 3 reasons why raids only attracted a small audience - Page 9 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Top 3 reasons why raids only attracted a small audience

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  • psyt.9415psyt.9415 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    In FFXIV the Duty Finder works, because:
    1. Each class is assigned one of the 3 basic roles (tank, healer, dps)
    2. different classes within the role are very balanced (there are differences, but are relatively small - compared to what can happen in gw2 they are basically negligible)
    3. effectiveness due to skill (within same class), while important, is also much, much smaller than what we're used to see here.
    As such, there's a reasonable assumption that a random group that fulfills basic role requirements, enforced by the Finder, should be fully capable of clearing the content, and the normal content (unlike Savage or Ultimate difficulties) can be balanced around such a random party.

    None of those assumptions hold true for GW2 however, making creation of such a system an exercise in futility.

    It really just depends on how they balance the encounters to be pugged by casuals. You are making an assumption that they cant play test and nerf the casual queue to the level of an ex dungeon or boost the player gear levels inside each these instances etc. Its a matter of tweaking the numbers, making it accessible and giving decent rewards.

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭
    • player a has bad raid experience at vale guardian 4 years ago (lots of time in spent in lfg, can't complete content, can't log in for training runs, toxic players, impatience, general lack of interest, doesn't like playing meta builds)
    • player a doesn't want to raid again
    • player a will actively tell people raids are a toxic hellhole, scaring off player b
    • raiders double down on this by putting obscene requirements on groups and generally putting down newer players because 5 minute clear speeds, kitten...
  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 21, 2020

    @psyt.9415 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    In FFXIV the Duty Finder works, because:
    1. Each class is assigned one of the 3 basic roles (tank, healer, dps)
    2. different classes within the role are very balanced (there are differences, but are relatively small - compared to what can happen in gw2 they are basically negligible)
    3. effectiveness due to skill (within same class), while important, is also much, much smaller than what we're used to see here.
    As such, there's a reasonable assumption that a random group that fulfills basic role requirements, enforced by the Finder, should be fully capable of clearing the content, and the normal content (unlike Savage or Ultimate difficulties) can be balanced around such a random party.

    None of those assumptions hold true for GW2 however, making creation of such a system an exercise in futility.

    It really just depends on how they balance the encounters to be pugged by casuals. You are making an assumption that they cant play test and nerf the casual queue to the level of an ex dungeon or boost the player gear levels inside each these instances etc. Its a matter of tweaking the numbers, making it accessible and giving decent rewards.

    You are severely underestimating effectiveness gaps due to skill in this game. And vastly overestimating effectiveness gaps due to gear.
    No, you can't just "drop the encounter to the level of yellow gear" and hope casuals will be able to do it. Remember, Dhuum Challenge Mode has been done by a group geared with budget greens. That group's effectiveness was still probably like 7-8x greater than that of an average casual. And i do mean an average casual in full ascended.

    It's completely different than what happens in FF XIV, where most of the damage difference comes from gear, and actual skill is responsible for at most 3x gap in effectiveness.

    You're also forgetting that, since GW2 has no set roles, you can't set duty finder to create a functioning squad. You may end up with a group that has no healers, no tanks, no boon strip, poor boon upkeep, no condi damage, and/or poor cc. Or without a specific role meant for a specific strategy on the encounter (say, no portal mesmer at escort, no hand kiter at Deimos, etc)
    Basically, in gw2 you can easily end up with an encounter that one player will be able to solo easily, while at the same time another whole 10-man squad will be completely unable to complete. It's next to impossible to balance something like that properly, and still keep the encounter somewhat interesting.

    Case in point: Grothmar strike.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • psyt.9415psyt.9415 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 21, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @psyt.9415 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    In FFXIV the Duty Finder works, because:
    1. Each class is assigned one of the 3 basic roles (tank, healer, dps)
    2. different classes within the role are very balanced (there are differences, but are relatively small - compared to what can happen in gw2 they are basically negligible)
    3. effectiveness due to skill (within same class), while important, is also much, much smaller than what we're used to see here.
    As such, there's a reasonable assumption that a random group that fulfills basic role requirements, enforced by the Finder, should be fully capable of clearing the content, and the normal content (unlike Savage or Ultimate difficulties) can be balanced around such a random party.

    None of those assumptions hold true for GW2 however, making creation of such a system an exercise in futility.

    It really just depends on how they balance the encounters to be pugged by casuals. You are making an assumption that they cant play test and nerf the casual queue to the level of an ex dungeon or boost the player gear levels inside each these instances etc. Its a matter of tweaking the numbers, making it accessible and giving decent rewards.

    You are severely underestimating effectiveness gaps due to skill in this game. And vastly overestimating effectiveness gaps due to gear.
    No, you can't just "drop the encounter to the level of yellow gear" and hope casuals will be able to do it. Remember, Dhuum Challenge Mode has been done by a group geared with budget greens. That group's effectiveness was still probably like 7-8x greater than that of an average casual. And i do mean an average casual in full ascended.

    It's completely different than what happens in FF XIV, where most of the damage difference comes from gear, and actual skill is responsible for at most 3x gap in effectiveness.

    You're also forgetting that, since GW2 has no set roles, you can't set duty finder to create a functioning squad. You may end up with a group that has no healers, no tanks, no boon strip, poor boon upkeep, no condi damage, and/or poor cc. Or without a specific role meant for a specific strategy on the encounter (say, no portal mesmer at escort, no hand kiter at Deimos, etc)
    Basically, in gw2 you can easily end up with an encounter that one player will be able to solo easily, while at the same time another whole 10-man squad will be completely unable to complete. It's next to impossible to balance something like that properly, and still keep the encounter somewhat interesting.

    Case in point: Grothmar strike.

    Disagree. You have a personal perception that GW2 is harder than other mmos which I disagree with. They are all difficult in thier own way. The ability to tune the raids to be more accessible is only limited by that perception. They can remove difficult mechanics or moves from certain bosses if they want, they can even remove certain wings if they want. They can add a stat bolster buff. they can add raid wide buffs that compensate for the lack of certain classes making them unnecessary. Theres lots of things they could do to allow a casual tuned raid to work and this is just 5 minutes of thought on the subject. But then again this is the same team that said dx12 would do nothing for the game and I get close to 30 more fps with the pxy. So im not surprised if they write things off before even trying it.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @psyt.9415 said:
    Disagree. You have a personal perception that GW2 is harder than other mmos which I disagree with. They are all difficult in thier own way. The ability to tune the raids to be more accessible is only limited by that perception. They can remove difficult mechanics or moves from certain bosses if they want, they can even remove certain wings if they want. They can add a stat bolster buff. they can add raid wide buffs that compensate for the lack of certain classes making them unnecessary. Theres lots of things they could do to allow a casual tuned raid to work and this is just 5 minutes of thought on the subject. But then again this is the same team that said dx12 would do nothing for the game and I get close to 30 more fps with the pxy. So im not surprised if they write things off before even trying it.

    Aside from all the reasons @Astralporing.1957 pointed out, there is one more, Raid wings in this game are badly designed because bosses inside one wing require different party compositions. A composition that works on Cairn, won't work on Deimos. This means a group formed for one boss, won't be ready for the next one, players would need to swap characters anyway, making the whole process of automatic group finding tedious.

    Yes, they could make Raids work with any group composition, they could turn all raid bosses in loot pinatas like the choya pinata in Amnoon so anyone can press 1 on their keyboard and win. Everything is possible, but auto grouping won't work very well. In Strike Missions there is a public version, but it doesn't work on the harder bosses.

  • psyt.9415psyt.9415 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 22, 2020

    .> @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @psyt.9415 said:
    Disagree. You have a personal perception that GW2 is harder than other mmos which I disagree with. They are all difficult in thier own way. The ability to tune the raids to be more accessible is only limited by that perception. They can remove difficult mechanics or moves from certain bosses if they want, they can even remove certain wings if they want. They can add a stat bolster buff. they can add raid wide buffs that compensate for the lack of certain classes making them unnecessary. Theres lots of things they could do to allow a casual tuned raid to work and this is just 5 minutes of thought on the subject. But then again this is the same team that said dx12 would do nothing for the game and I get close to 30 more fps with the pxy. So im not surprised if they write things off before even trying it.

    Aside from all the reasons @Astralporing.1957 pointed out, there is one more, Raid wings in this game are badly designed because bosses inside one wing require different party compositions. A composition that works on Cairn, won't work on Deimos. This means a group formed for one boss, won't be ready for the next one, players would need to swap characters anyway, making the whole process of automatic group finding tedious.

    Yes, they could make Raids work with any group composition, they could turn all raid bosses in loot pinatas like the choya pinata in Amnoon so anyone can press 1 on their keyboard and win. Everything is possible, but auto grouping won't work very well. In Strike Missions there is a public version, but it doesn't work on the harder bosses.

    I mean there has to be a happy difficulty medium they could come up with some where along the lines of an explore mode. They would need to put in the work and some encounters would end up significantly different. Its just up to them whether they want to sink the time to open it up to the other 94% of playerbase. It would just be engaging the mechanics team since everything else is complete. I believe it would be worth it personally to get some more milage out of the raid content that they already have created. Every one of the big 3 mmos has some sort of raid or dungeon roulette. I think they need to get a little more creative here. I never needed a special party for explore .They can set that as their target diff level and go from there. There is a ton of content no one will run that people would if there was an easy mode and convenient auto party system with good rewards like other games.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2020

    @psyt.9415 said:
    .> @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @psyt.9415 said:
    Disagree. You have a personal perception that GW2 is harder than other mmos which I disagree with. They are all difficult in thier own way. The ability to tune the raids to be more accessible is only limited by that perception. They can remove difficult mechanics or moves from certain bosses if they want, they can even remove certain wings if they want. They can add a stat bolster buff. they can add raid wide buffs that compensate for the lack of certain classes making them unnecessary. Theres lots of things they could do to allow a casual tuned raid to work and this is just 5 minutes of thought on the subject. But then again this is the same team that said dx12 would do nothing for the game and I get close to 30 more fps with the pxy. So im not surprised if they write things off before even trying it.

    Aside from all the reasons @Astralporing.1957 pointed out, there is one more, Raid wings in this game are badly designed because bosses inside one wing require different party compositions. A composition that works on Cairn, won't work on Deimos. This means a group formed for one boss, won't be ready for the next one, players would need to swap characters anyway, making the whole process of automatic group finding tedious.

    Yes, they could make Raids work with any group composition, they could turn all raid bosses in loot pinatas like the choya pinata in Amnoon so anyone can press 1 on their keyboard and win. Everything is possible, but auto grouping won't work very well. In Strike Missions there is a public version, but it doesn't work on the harder bosses.

    I mean there has to be a happy difficulty medium they could come up with some where along the lines of an explore mode.

    Actually, no, there's no such difficulty level. The discrepancy between average and top is just too great in GW2 for it to be possible. No matter the difficulty level you'd pick, you'd find that it is either way too too hard, or ridiculously easy for a vast majority of players. The range of players for which the difficulty would be fine is very narrow.

    Other games can get away with it because their mechanics make effectiveness gap between low and high skill be way smaller. In gw2 however it works exactly the opposite - the game mechanics inflate even the smallest skill differences to have massive impact on player's effectivenes. It means that even a small change in player skill can be a difference between "not possible for me" and "can do it half asleep, with both hands behind my back, just rolling my face on keyboard"

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • psyt.9415psyt.9415 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @psyt.9415 said:
    .> @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @psyt.9415 said:
    Disagree. You have a personal perception that GW2 is harder than other mmos which I disagree with. They are all difficult in thier own way. The ability to tune the raids to be more accessible is only limited by that perception. They can remove difficult mechanics or moves from certain bosses if they want, they can even remove certain wings if they want. They can add a stat bolster buff. they can add raid wide buffs that compensate for the lack of certain classes making them unnecessary. Theres lots of things they could do to allow a casual tuned raid to work and this is just 5 minutes of thought on the subject. But then again this is the same team that said dx12 would do nothing for the game and I get close to 30 more fps with the pxy. So im not surprised if they write things off before even trying it.

    Aside from all the reasons @Astralporing.1957 pointed out, there is one more, Raid wings in this game are badly designed because bosses inside one wing require different party compositions. A composition that works on Cairn, won't work on Deimos. This means a group formed for one boss, won't be ready for the next one, players would need to swap characters anyway, making the whole process of automatic group finding tedious.

    Yes, they could make Raids work with any group composition, they could turn all raid bosses in loot pinatas like the choya pinata in Amnoon so anyone can press 1 on their keyboard and win. Everything is possible, but auto grouping won't work very well. In Strike Missions there is a public version, but it doesn't work on the harder bosses.

    I mean there has to be a happy difficulty medium they could come up with some where along the lines of an explore mode.

    Actually, no, there's no such difficulty level. The discrepancy between average and top is just too great in GW2 for it to be possible. No matter the difficulty level you'd pick, you'd find that it is either way too too hard, or ridiculously easy for a vast majority of players. The range of players for which the difficulty would be fine is very narrow.

    Other games can get away with it because their mechanics make effectiveness gap between low and high skill be way smaller. In gw2 however it works exactly the opposite - the game mechanics inflate even the smallest skill differences to have massive impact on player's effectivenes. It means that even a small change in player skill can be a difference between "not possible for me" and "can do it half asleep, with both hands behind my back, just rolling my face on keyboard"

    For the 6% that can roll their face on keyboard they can continue to do regular raids for the most efficient reward. For the other 94% the explore mode scaled down difficulty is still a win because now that content is usable by a much much larger subset of the gaming population. As long as the rewards that you get are decent but dont invalidate the regular difficulty its a win as that content is now no longer wasted on most of the player base. Ss long as the regular mode is still the most efficient way to get those rewards everyone wins. Two rule sets, two difficulties, two different levels of reward ie more tokens for legendaries, gold, etc. for regular raid difficulty.

    Example: Tie rewards to a daily reward chest like every other game. The 1%er can run the explore mode difficulty version and roll his face on the keyboard for 30G (or whatever is worth it while not destroying the economy) 1 time daily. For him its easy gold. For the other 94% its a decent challenge that can be pugged through an auto queue daily and increases the daily content base they have available to do for fun and profit. If the 1%er wants a challenge and leggys they can still run the regular raid. So we maximize the use of the content already in the game just by just tweaking bosses. We create a casual dungeon/ raid community for fun and profit. Tweak the rewards however necessary so that it doesn't invalidate the regular difficulty mode raids but increases the content availability. The fact some are better at the game than others wouldn't really be relevant at all as long as it cant be abused. You find the middle ground like an explorable and if more people are having fun thats a win and not excluding the majority of the playerbase from this content. I guarantee nearly everyone will run their daily to get that gold or token or whatever and you don't invalidate the regular raid by doing it or open it up to abuse by time gating the explore version reward as a daily. Its also easier to tweak preexisting content then to start making it from scratch so even the devs win.

  • raids are 'memorize mechanics, memorize perfect rotation, done'.

    which might be fun and challenging for some, but I am sure it is borderline soul crushing boring for others.

    add to this that a lot of times mechanic clues are hard to see with all the circles, particles, effects, oversized backpacks, flamboyant armor and big kitten charr and big kitten norn filling up your field of view.

    GW2 is pretty but sometimes it is so hard to see what is actually going on - why even bother? Oh, everybody died to boss X because some players did not see the tell for mechanic Y+2. Which they couldn't because they drowning in a sea of shiny effects. Sure, veteran raiders don't have that problem. But those veterans prob. could do the encounter with both eyes closed and just a timer/hp counter in their ear just the same.

    Which again makes raids so incredible boring.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    raids are 'memorize mechanics, memorize perfect rotation, done'.

    By memorizing you also mean by actually doing the raids then yes. You can't learn raids by watching others and reading up on the wiki.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @psyt.9415 said:
    For the 6% that can roll their face on keyboard they can continue to do regular raids for the most efficient reward. For the other 94% the explore mode scaled down difficulty is still a win because now that content is usable by a much much larger subset of the gaming population.

    Not gonna go into tiers for Raids because there are threads on that subject and have been discussed to death. Plus raid development was cancelled so no new mode will be created. That said, you are assuming here that the 94% of the population will be interested in such a scaled down version of a Raid. I'm gonna ask, do you think the Grothmar Strike has been completed by 100% of the population?

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    raids are 'memorize mechanics, memorize perfect rotation, done'.

    which might be fun and challenging for some, but I am sure it is borderline soul crushing boring for others.

    add to this that a lot of times mechanic clues are hard to see with all the circles, particles, effects, oversized backpacks, flamboyant armor and big kitten charr and big kitten norn filling up your field of view.

    GW2 is pretty but sometimes it is so hard to see what is actually going on - why even bother? Oh, everybody died to boss X because some players did not see the tell for mechanic Y+2. Which they couldn't because they drowning in a sea of shiny effects. Sure, veteran raiders don't have that problem. But those veterans prob. could do the encounter with both eyes closed and just a timer/hp counter in their ear just the same.

    Which again makes raids so incredible boring.

    Relying on only direct visual cues is the biggest noob trap for inexperienced raiders. Most mechanics have sound cues or the yellow shimmer around your screen that is in your peripheral view. If you cant avoid mechanics because you cant see them, turn on your game sound. Also doing raids blind folded would be more fun for experienced raiders than you think because we enjoy the feeling of mastery of content. Blind folded relying only on sound cues would probably be an awesome challenge to do.

  • psyt.9415psyt.9415 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @psyt.9415 said:
    For the 6% that can roll their face on keyboard they can continue to do regular raids for the most efficient reward. For the other 94% the explore mode scaled down difficulty is still a win because now that content is usable by a much much larger subset of the gaming population.

    Not gonna go into tiers for Raids because there are threads on that subject and have been discussed to death. Plus raid development was cancelled so no new mode will be created. That said, you are assuming here that the 94% of the population will be interested in such a scaled down version of a Raid. I'm gonna ask, do you think the Grothmar Strike has been completed by 100% of the population?

    How many people do casual raids and dungeons and use looking for raid in WoW or raid roulette in FFXIV. The answer is hundreds of thousands. Many left GW2 because new ex dungeons stopped being offered. Doesnt mean there isnt a market for it or people wouldn't come back for it. The topic was top 3 reasons why the audience is small. Accessibility, difficulty and rewards thats my answer. Change all 3 people would be more inclined to do the content. There's a large market for casual dungeon/raid group content. Thats pretty much the main hook in every other mmo. How many run non savage or non mythic raids... lots. They dont need to create new raids they need to open up what content they do have to the masses.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2020

    @psyt.9415 said:
    For the 6% that can roll their face on keyboard they can continue to do regular raids for the most efficient reward. For the other 94% the explore mode scaled down difficulty is still a win because now that content is usable by a much much larger subset of the gaming population.

    You are missing the point. that "explore level" difficulty would still be either too hard or way too easy for a majority of that 94% group. It would be a decent challenge only for like 5-10% of the community at best - everyone else would be either below or above the challenge level borders.

    Again, case in point is Grothmar Strike. It is very easy. (hint: if you want to compare it to FF XIV, it is way, way easier than Crystal Tower raids). And still you see most of the player population wiping on it (well, not anymore, because most of those players stopped doing it already). It is not a decent challenge to practically anyone - you either aren't good enough to pass (and then you wipe), or you win easily. Another case is T1 fractals - if you made truly everyone attempt them, you'd see a lot of groups failing.

    As long as the rewards that you get are decent but dont invalidate the regular difficulty its a win as that content is now no longer wasted on most of the player base. Ss long as the regular mode is still the most efficient way to get those rewards everyone wins. Two rule sets, two difficulties, two different levels of reward ie more tokens for legendaries, gold, etc. for regular raid difficulty.

    Example: Tie rewards to a daily reward chest like every other game. The 1%er can run the explore mode difficulty version and roll his face on the keyboard for 30G (or whatever is worth it while not destroying the economy) 1 time daily. For him its easy gold. For the other 94% its a decent challenge that can be pugged through an auto queue daily and increases the daily content base they have available to do for fun and profit.

    Any content easy enough to be puggable by an auto queue with significant chances of victory won't be a decent challenge. It will be a boss you will be able to AFK to death.
    Because anything more complicated will result in a fail.

    Yes, making more difficulty tiers would probably have been a good idea at some point, but do not deceive yourself thinking that it would make a huge majority play that content. Yes, the amount of players doing it would be greater, but not as great as you think it would be.

    @psyt.9415 said:
    How many people do casual raids and dungeons and use looking for raid in WoW or raid roulette in FFXIV. The answer is hundreds of thousands.

    Again, you do not understand the core system differences between FF XIV and GW2, and why those differences make something easy to implement in FF XIV but next to impossible in GW2.
    Hint: the difference between top and bottom of players in FF XIV (assuming same class level and wearing gear appropriate to your level) is like 3-4x. In GW2, that difference is 10x, but not between top and bottom, but between top and median.
    No, it's not because FF XIV players are more skilled. It's because skill in FF XIV impacts your effectiveness to a far lesser degree than in GW2.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • psyt.9415psyt.9415 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @psyt.9415 said:
    For the 6% that can roll their face on keyboard they can continue to do regular raids for the most efficient reward. For the other 94% the explore mode scaled down difficulty is still a win because now that content is usable by a much much larger subset of the gaming population.

    You are missing the point. that "explore level" difficulty would still be either too hard or way too easy for a majority of that 94% group. It would be a decent challenge only for like 5-10% of the community at best - everyone else would be either below or above the challenge level borders.

    Again, case in point is Grothmar Strike. It is very easy. (hint: if you want to compare it to FF XIV, it is way, way easier than Crystal Tower raids). And still you see most of the player population wiping on it (well, not anymore, because most of those players stopped doing it already). It is not a decent challenge to practically anyone - you either aren't good enough to pass (and then you wipe), or you win easily. Another case is T1 fractals - if you made truly everyone attempt them, you'd see a lot of groups failing.

    As long as the rewards that you get are decent but dont invalidate the regular difficulty its a win as that content is now no longer wasted on most of the player base. Ss long as the regular mode is still the most efficient way to get those rewards everyone wins. Two rule sets, two difficulties, two different levels of reward ie more tokens for legendaries, gold, etc. for regular raid difficulty.

    Example: Tie rewards to a daily reward chest like every other game. The 1%er can run the explore mode difficulty version and roll his face on the keyboard for 30G (or whatever is worth it while not destroying the economy) 1 time daily. For him its easy gold. For the other 94% its a decent challenge that can be pugged through an auto queue daily and increases the daily content base they have available to do for fun and profit.

    Any content easy enough to be puggable by an auto queue with significant chances of victory won't be a decent challenge. It will be a boss you will be able to AFK to death.
    Because anything more complicated will result in a fail.

    Yes, making more difficulty tiers would probably have been a good idea at some point, but do not deceive yourself thinking that it would make a huge majority play that content. Yes, the amount of players doing it would be greater, but not as great as you think it would be.

    @psyt.9415 said:
    How many people do casual raids and dungeons and use looking for raid in WoW or raid roulette in FFXIV. The answer is hundreds of thousands.

    Again, you do not understand the core system differences between FF XIV and GW2, and why those differences make something easy to implement in FF XIV but next to impossible in GW2.
    Hint: the difference between top and bottom of players in FF XIV (assuming same class level and wearing gear appropriate to your level) is like 3-4x. In GW2, that difference is 10x, but not between top and bottom, but between top and median.
    No, it's not because FF XIV players are more skilled. It's because skill in FF XIV impacts your effectiveness to a far lesser degree than in GW2.

    I understand quite well and ive said it before, the general population used to run explores and story modes all the time and for the most part had no issues (especially COF for gold). It only stopped when they took away the good gold rewards and stopped making them. Its your opinion not fact that the community is too low skill to handle any kind of group content. I've seen with my own eyes that the community can do explore, and story dungeons and fractals and they do them every single day so saying its not possible to balance any form of group content to be done by a reasonable subest of the population is completely false it happens every day..... low level fractals and explores you can pretty much mongo with any class. During the explore mode heyday was Warrior the meta, sure, but every game has a meta group and it didnt matter ive seen story, explore and low lvl fractals done by all sorts of comps.

    Again thats also irrelevant, it does not matter one bit if they balance the casual raids so that 20% find it difficult or 50% as long as people enjoy it and its not abuseable just like low lvl fractals. Do you consider low lvl Fractals and Explores to be the same as the Amnoon Pinata? The both of you are deliberately using hyperbole if you dont believe there is a difference. Would the fractal community do it, probably, would the old Explore mode folks do it, probably to, is there enough evidence in other games people like casual mode raids and dungeons yes hundreds do them every single day hundreds of times a day and in those games some raids can do them in their sleep and some find it hard Guild Wars isn't unique to that. The point is is a larger majority getting fun and reward out of it than without having a casual mode and the answer would be yes, we see it in every other game. Instanced group content died in GW2, because they killed the gold reward and stopped making new ones making it pointless to do any of them unless youve never done it before. It wasnt because mmo players dont like instanced content. Your accessibility, rewards and difficulty need to be such that the majority can handle it and in this game there is already content like that and its being done daily.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2020

    Oh, i'd very much like to see midcore and/or more laid back instanced content back. I'm just not deluding myself into overestimating how popular would that content be. Don't think that dungeons you keep bringing up were being done by a majority of players. They weren't. They were being done by a lot more people than raids were, that's true, but that still wasn't a majority. To many players out there, playing happily in open world, dungeons would still be very, very hard. Yes, even the easier ones.
    If you want that kind of content to be developed more, i agree, and i would also like that a lot. Just don't keep using arguments that are completely untrue to support that.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • psyt.9415psyt.9415 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Oh, i'd very much like to see midcore and/or more laid back instanced content back. I'm just not deluding myself into overestimating how popular would that content be. Don't think that dungeons you keep bringing up were being done by a majority of players. They weren't. They were being done by a lot more people than raids were, that's true, but that still wasn't a majority. To many players out there, playing happily in open world, dungeons would still be very, very hard. Yes, even the easier ones.
    If you want that kind of content to be developed more, i agree, and i would also like that a lot. Just don't keep using arguments that are completely untrue to support that.

    I mean I dont know which part is untrue. I'm basically just saying since they dont have a raid or dungeon team any more- they can re-use/ refurbish the raids to support that midcore group since its probably easier tweaking bosses than making it all from scratch at this point. My honest belief was that a large part of why they killed the explore mode community by killing the gold reward was because its was competing against gem sales / gold conversion/ skins. Once they removed the reward it wasnt worth it so I dont know if they would ever even bother with this because at one end no one will do it if there isnt enough rewards and if there is then its a gold farm again unless they can limit it to a daily reward. Its a fine balance of fostering that community again while not shooting their gem sales in the foot unless its like a daily token towards a leggy. Is that worth it for them? I dont know, but I personally miss that type of content I used to really enjoy it.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @psyt.9415 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Oh, i'd very much like to see midcore and/or more laid back instanced content back. I'm just not deluding myself into overestimating how popular would that content be. Don't think that dungeons you keep bringing up were being done by a majority of players. They weren't. They were being done by a lot more people than raids were, that's true, but that still wasn't a majority. To many players out there, playing happily in open world, dungeons would still be very, very hard. Yes, even the easier ones.
    If you want that kind of content to be developed more, i agree, and i would also like that a lot. Just don't keep using arguments that are completely untrue to support that.

    I mean I dont know which part is untrue. I'm basically just saying since they dont have a raid or dungeon team any more- they can re-use/ refurbish the raids to support that midcore group since its probably easier tweaking bosses than making it all from scratch at this point. My honest belief was that a large part of why they killed the explore mode community by killing the gold reward was because its was competing against gem sales / gold conversion/ skins. Once they removed the reward it wasnt worth it so I dont know if they would ever even bother with this because at one end no one will do it if there isnt enough rewards and if there is then its a gold farm again unless they can limit it to a daily reward. Its a fine balance of fostering that community again while not shooting their gem sales in the foot unless its like a daily token towards a leggy. Is that worth it for them? I dont know, but I personally miss that type of content I used to really enjoy it.

    You do realise dungeon rewards got buffed and now are worth more then they where back then?

    Why do you think dungeons aren't as popular as they used to be?

  • psyt.9415psyt.9415 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2020

    @yann.1946 said:

    @psyt.9415 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Oh, i'd very much like to see midcore and/or more laid back instanced content back. I'm just not deluding myself into overestimating how popular would that content be. Don't think that dungeons you keep bringing up were being done by a majority of players. They weren't. They were being done by a lot more people than raids were, that's true, but that still wasn't a majority. To many players out there, playing happily in open world, dungeons would still be very, very hard. Yes, even the easier ones.
    If you want that kind of content to be developed more, i agree, and i would also like that a lot. Just don't keep using arguments that are completely untrue to support that.

    I mean I dont know which part is untrue. I'm basically just saying since they dont have a raid or dungeon team any more- they can re-use/ refurbish the raids to support that midcore group since its probably easier tweaking bosses than making it all from scratch at this point. My honest belief was that a large part of why they killed the explore mode community by killing the gold reward was because its was competing against gem sales / gold conversion/ skins. Once they removed the reward it wasnt worth it so I dont know if they would ever even bother with this because at one end no one will do it if there isnt enough rewards and if there is then its a gold farm again unless they can limit it to a daily reward. Its a fine balance of fostering that community again while not shooting their gem sales in the foot unless its like a daily token towards a leggy. Is that worth it for them? I dont know, but I personally miss that type of content I used to really enjoy it.

    You do realise dungeon rewards got buffed and now are worth more then they where back then?

    Why do you think dungeons aren't as popular as they used to be?

    Its because we've been doing the same dungeons for 7 years. Outside of the Classic WoW community, who wants to do the same thing for that long? We need new dungeons. Provide new content and ill do it. You cant ask people to do the same thing for the same skins for 7 years or the fun is gone and it becomes, "is this worth it just to farm because ive drained the fun out of it at this point"? So in this instance new content tied to new rewards is needed as we have hit a point of burnout. Its the same reason I dont run around doing the events in Queensdale anymore or the Vine in HoT, eventually you need new experiences. New Raid difficulty = new experience for 94% of the population.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @psyt.9415 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @psyt.9415 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Oh, i'd very much like to see midcore and/or more laid back instanced content back. I'm just not deluding myself into overestimating how popular would that content be. Don't think that dungeons you keep bringing up were being done by a majority of players. They weren't. They were being done by a lot more people than raids were, that's true, but that still wasn't a majority. To many players out there, playing happily in open world, dungeons would still be very, very hard. Yes, even the easier ones.
    If you want that kind of content to be developed more, i agree, and i would also like that a lot. Just don't keep using arguments that are completely untrue to support that.

    I mean I dont know which part is untrue. I'm basically just saying since they dont have a raid or dungeon team any more- they can re-use/ refurbish the raids to support that midcore group since its probably easier tweaking bosses than making it all from scratch at this point. My honest belief was that a large part of why they killed the explore mode community by killing the gold reward was because its was competing against gem sales / gold conversion/ skins. Once they removed the reward it wasnt worth it so I dont know if they would ever even bother with this because at one end no one will do it if there isnt enough rewards and if there is then its a gold farm again unless they can limit it to a daily reward. Its a fine balance of fostering that community again while not shooting their gem sales in the foot unless its like a daily token towards a leggy. Is that worth it for them? I dont know, but I personally miss that type of content I used to really enjoy it.

    You do realise dungeon rewards got buffed and now are worth more then they where back then?

    Why do you think dungeons aren't as popular as they used to be?

    Its because we've been doing the same dungeons for 7 years. Outside of the Classic WoW community, who wants to do the same thing for that long? We need new dungeons. Provide new content and ill do it. You cant ask people to do the same thing for the same skins for 7 years or the fun is gone and it becomes, "is this worth it just to farm because ive drained the fun out of it at this point"? So in this instance new content tied to new rewards is needed as we have hit a point of burnout. Its the same reason I dont run around doing the events in Queensdale anymore or the Vine in HoT, eventually you need new experiences. New Raid difficulty = new experience for 94% of the population.

    But its absolutely not for 96 percent of the community. This was the biggest fallacy that was made when advocating easy mode,it will totally depend on how much people would actually like doing instanced content. For example, if they added a pvp system against bots do you think suddenly all the players would do pvp?

    On top of that the name raiding caries a negative meaning because of past experiences/ Prejudice so even an easy mode won't necessarily help that.
    Ofcourse thats what their trying to figure out with strikes though so we'll so how that goes.

    And why bring dungeonrewards up if they are not the final reason dungeons died?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2020

    @psyt.9415 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Oh, i'd very much like to see midcore and/or more laid back instanced content back. I'm just not deluding myself into overestimating how popular would that content be. Don't think that dungeons you keep bringing up were being done by a majority of players. They weren't. They were being done by a lot more people than raids were, that's true, but that still wasn't a majority. To many players out there, playing happily in open world, dungeons would still be very, very hard. Yes, even the easier ones.
    If you want that kind of content to be developed more, i agree, and i would also like that a lot. Just don't keep using arguments that are completely untrue to support that.

    I mean I dont know which part is untrue. I'm basically just saying since they dont have a raid or dungeon team any more- they can re-use/ refurbish the raids to support that midcore group since its probably easier tweaking bosses than making it all from scratch at this point.

    Which group is the midcore group exactly? You have so far only divided the player base into 94% and 6%, approaching this subject in a binary manner. Can you explain what exactly the midcore performance level is? Also is this based on the entire player base, or only those players who do instanced content?

    Before you answer, and this should help you undestand the issue here which Astralporing has been trying to explain to you:
    No matter which group of players you define as midcore, unless it's the brain afk 1 auto spammers, there will always be players who will be far weaker than the challenge level you suggest. As is VERY evident since the implementation of strikes (the strike which can literally be soloed by good players, while entire groups of 10 players have wiped to it). As long as gw2raidar was up (a site for tracking successful raid kills and performance), even among the already "better" players, those who succeeded at raiding, the disparity was HUGE (we are talking easy 50 or 100% more damage between 50% percentile and 99% percentile players), and that was among SUCCESSFUL raid clear players. The pit further down is endless.

    What you seem to not understand is:
    The performance disparity between players here reaches factors of times 20-30, and that's just on damage, the way more significant players are the supporter players which can make or break a group (where performance disparity is harder to measure except with healing amount and boon uptime).

    @psyt.9415 said:
    My honest belief was that a large part of why they killed the explore mode community by killing the gold reward was because its was competing against gem sales / gold conversion/ skins. Once they removed the reward it wasnt worth it so I dont know if they would ever even bother with this because at one end no one will do it if there isnt enough rewards and if there is then its a gold farm again unless they can limit it to a daily reward. Its a fine balance of fostering that community again while not shooting their gem sales in the foot unless its like a daily token towards a leggy. Is that worth it for them? I dont know, but I personally miss that type of content I used to really enjoy it.

    As pointed out, The dungeon rewards were increased shortly after the change back to original levels. The reason players are not running dungeons, and I have stated this in the past: they are rivaled by solo open world content in gold reward and as such, the extra organization required is not worth the hassle for many players.

  • psyt.9415psyt.9415 Member ✭✭✭

    Guys I honestly dont even care anymore to debate with you so this is my last word on this. Have your raids then I can play other games. I still disagree but i'm not arguing the same point in circles. Yes rewards were changed, no they do not provide a good time vs reward investment I already said that myself. Can this mix be changed yes. Is there group content in this game that average joes can do yes, look at low lvl fractals. Call it a fractal with re-used assests if you want I dont really care. There is groupable content and there is room inbeween the amnoon choyka and Dhuum to play with on difficulty. Its up to them to find that mix if they are interested in the casual grouping community. If not I dont care im not getting paid to theorycraft out the risk vs reward structure for them thats their job. Can it work of course but you need the right, reward, difficulty/risk and accessibility. It can work the choice is up to them if they care enough and I guess we will find out if they get that mix right with Strike Missions. It wont fail because people dont want to do it, people play mmos for social interaction. It will fail because they cant get the mix right between how hard it is, opportunity cost and what do i get, plus the 4th issue fun, ie. am I expected to do the same thing for the next 10 yrs.

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    1. Content is too hard for the masses.

    True given the lack of incentive to improve for large parts of the player base.

    Untrue for even the simplest "easy" builds, similar to the open world builds on metabattle, which trivialize any open world content.

    There are rather simple and safe builds which bring more than enough performance while being very easy to play. That leaves only boss attacks and strategies as difficulty, and those can be practiced or simplified with certain setups.

    @Dante.1508 said:
    2. The population that does raids is beyond toxic and elitist.

    First, I'd question how you'd know since you are not known to be a player who actually engages in said content. So this is a pure hear say from your side. (If you haven't participated in at least a certain set amount of raids, given this content is over 4 years old, don't presume to make judgements on an entire part of the player base. Either make a personal subjective statement based on your own experience, or refrain from unqualified judgments).

    Second, from the thousands of raid players I've met, the vast majority were casual raiders within their own guild groups or social circles, and I daresay, 99% of them were very friendly and great people (from the short time I had with many, others I have as friends and help out in their casual raids).

    I assume the toxicity you are referring to is the age old:"oh I wasn't taken along", the "oh the barrier is to high with thousands of KP and LI requirements" or "random toxic person xyz was mean to me". To that all I can say:

    1. PUG raids are not representative of the entire raid community, just as open world toxicity when a more difficult meta fails is not representative of the average open world player (and man can players in open world get toxic in chat).

    2. a lot of players who are interested in playing raid content regularly are organized in many different types of social communities and guilds. Toxicity is not present to a large extent here or otherwise the toxic individuals get removed. These "non toxic" players will not be present to a large extent in the PUG raiding pool while still being a large part of the community.

    3. the term elitism gets thrown around a lot. Most often in this games in context of:"every one who enjoys to improve or improves their game play is elitist". I don't consider players who enjoy taking on challenging content elitist, and given the huge performance disparities between even successful raiders, I find that notion rather offensive against a large part of this games player base.

    @Dante.1508 said:
    3. The rewards are not equal to the content.

    Sure, raid rewards are on the low side. This has been complained about on multiple occasions. That's a benefit though since it makes raids less a requirement (but would directly affect why less players do them).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    On a side note most modern customers do not have time to spend hours in these things failing over and over..

    Then this content is not for you if you are unwilling to dedicate enough time to it.

    I know enough players who have very busy real life issues taking up time (kids, work, family, renovation, vacations, etc.). Some carve out room for raid content because it's the content they enjoy, others spend time on other things. Time commitment and devotion is a matter of personal availability to leisure time and preference.

    TL;DR:
    For someone who calls other players toxic and elitist, the casual approach to marginalize an entire part of the player base seems a rather toxic approach to this issue. Especially since it's not support with any facts. That's called having a bias.

    Its not my first mmorpg i've done many raids in other mmo's, raids are all the same content and those elitists flock to the content, in all mmos.. GW2 is no different, i gave up the tread mill of raids a long time back its a horrible experience.

    Well thanks for at least being so open about this, here:

    prejudice
    /ˈprɛdʒʊdɪs/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    noun: prejudice; plural noun: prejudices

    1.
    preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.
    

    or, if you want the one from the Cambrdige Dictionary:

    prejudice
    noun [ C or U ]
    uk
    /ˈpredʒ.ə.dɪs/ us
    /ˈpredʒ.ə.dɪs/
    B2
    an unfair and unreasonable opinion or feeling, especially when formed without enough thought or knowledge

    I get it, you are opinionated and have strong feelings on this subject, but even you must realize how prejudicial your approach is on this matter. You are basically judging thousands of players and content whom you have neither interacted with, nor even played the content in a substantial way to make any judgments.

    As far as other MMO's, I've raided in most that I've played, be it Dark Age of Camelot during Atlantis, World of Warcraft, Warhammer Online, Eve Online, etc. and I would absolutely not call all of them equal or even similar in approach. I would even less dare make judgement calls about the player who play them, since the spectrum of characters and play styles I've seen could fill books.

    On forums i see many customers saying how the communities are great in raiding, in the actual game though i'm yet to ever see these nice and friendly sorts, at all.. ever.. Call it what you like but the proof is in the pudding so to speak, raiding customers aren't nice, friendly or easy going by nature.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    1. Content is too hard for the masses.

    True given the lack of incentive to improve for large parts of the player base.

    Untrue for even the simplest "easy" builds, similar to the open world builds on metabattle, which trivialize any open world content.

    There are rather simple and safe builds which bring more than enough performance while being very easy to play. That leaves only boss attacks and strategies as difficulty, and those can be practiced or simplified with certain setups.

    @Dante.1508 said:
    2. The population that does raids is beyond toxic and elitist.

    First, I'd question how you'd know since you are not known to be a player who actually engages in said content. So this is a pure hear say from your side. (If you haven't participated in at least a certain set amount of raids, given this content is over 4 years old, don't presume to make judgements on an entire part of the player base. Either make a personal subjective statement based on your own experience, or refrain from unqualified judgments).

    Second, from the thousands of raid players I've met, the vast majority were casual raiders within their own guild groups or social circles, and I daresay, 99% of them were very friendly and great people (from the short time I had with many, others I have as friends and help out in their casual raids).

    I assume the toxicity you are referring to is the age old:"oh I wasn't taken along", the "oh the barrier is to high with thousands of KP and LI requirements" or "random toxic person xyz was mean to me". To that all I can say:

    1. PUG raids are not representative of the entire raid community, just as open world toxicity when a more difficult meta fails is not representative of the average open world player (and man can players in open world get toxic in chat).

    2. a lot of players who are interested in playing raid content regularly are organized in many different types of social communities and guilds. Toxicity is not present to a large extent here or otherwise the toxic individuals get removed. These "non toxic" players will not be present to a large extent in the PUG raiding pool while still being a large part of the community.

    3. the term elitism gets thrown around a lot. Most often in this games in context of:"every one who enjoys to improve or improves their game play is elitist". I don't consider players who enjoy taking on challenging content elitist, and given the huge performance disparities between even successful raiders, I find that notion rather offensive against a large part of this games player base.

    @Dante.1508 said:
    3. The rewards are not equal to the content.

    Sure, raid rewards are on the low side. This has been complained about on multiple occasions. That's a benefit though since it makes raids less a requirement (but would directly affect why less players do them).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    On a side note most modern customers do not have time to spend hours in these things failing over and over..

    Then this content is not for you if you are unwilling to dedicate enough time to it.

    I know enough players who have very busy real life issues taking up time (kids, work, family, renovation, vacations, etc.). Some carve out room for raid content because it's the content they enjoy, others spend time on other things. Time commitment and devotion is a matter of personal availability to leisure time and preference.

    TL;DR:
    For someone who calls other players toxic and elitist, the casual approach to marginalize an entire part of the player base seems a rather toxic approach to this issue. Especially since it's not support with any facts. That's called having a bias.

    Its not my first mmorpg i've done many raids in other mmo's, raids are all the same content and those elitists flock to the content, in all mmos.. GW2 is no different, i gave up the tread mill of raids a long time back its a horrible experience.

    Well thanks for at least being so open about this, here:

    prejudice
    /ˈprɛdʒʊdɪs/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    noun: prejudice; plural noun: prejudices

    1.
    preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.
    

    or, if you want the one from the Cambrdige Dictionary:

    prejudice
    noun [ C or U ]
    uk
    /ˈpredʒ.ə.dɪs/ us
    /ˈpredʒ.ə.dɪs/
    B2
    an unfair and unreasonable opinion or feeling, especially when formed without enough thought or knowledge

    I get it, you are opinionated and have strong feelings on this subject, but even you must realize how prejudicial your approach is on this matter. You are basically judging thousands of players and content whom you have neither interacted with, nor even played the content in a substantial way to make any judgments.

    As far as other MMO's, I've raided in most that I've played, be it Dark Age of Camelot during Atlantis, World of Warcraft, Warhammer Online, Eve Online, etc. and I would absolutely not call all of them equal or even similar in approach. I would even less dare make judgement calls about the player who play them, since the spectrum of characters and play styles I've seen could fill books.

    On forums i see many customers saying how the communities are great in raiding, in the actual game though i'm yet to ever see these nice and friendly sorts, at all.. ever.. Call it what you like but the proof is in the pudding so to speak, raiding customers aren't nice, friendly or easy going by nature.

    It's called Occam's Razor:

    Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor) is a principle from philosophy. Suppose there exist two explanations for an occurrence. In this case the one that requires the smallest number of assumptions is usually correct. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation. Occam's razor applies especially in the philosophy of science, but also more generally.

    Or in this case:
    Is it maybe possible that the players who talk about raiding being fun have actually approached the game in a specific way and actually spent a significant amount of time raiding. While others, who like to theorize about how evil raiding is, simply base these assumptions on hear say and singular experiences? You would fall into the second group, would you not?

    Last I checked, the forum warrior ratio of players who claim raiding is full of toxic players comes from a very minor fraction of players, most often those who have NOT raided (or base their claims on singular events). I have yet to see a vast majority of players who claim they have spent a significant amount of time with the content and community and walk away with such a terrible opinion as those who have spent no time in it or as part of it.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @psyt.9415 said:
    Disagree. You have a personal perception that GW2 is harder than other mmos which I disagree with. They are all difficult in thier own way. The ability to tune the raids to be more accessible is only limited by that perception. They can remove difficult mechanics or moves from certain bosses if they want, they can even remove certain wings if they want. They can add a stat bolster buff. they can add raid wide buffs that compensate for the lack of certain classes making them unnecessary. Theres lots of things they could do to allow a casual tuned raid to work and this is just 5 minutes of thought on the subject. But then again this is the same team that said dx12 would do nothing for the game and I get close to 30 more fps with the pxy. So im not surprised if they write things off before even trying it.

    Aside from all the reasons @Astralporing.1957 pointed out, there is one more, Raid wings in this game are badly designed because bosses inside one wing require different party compositions.

    Recently Nike issued the "Viability Challenge" A raid comp that consisted of:
    1x Heal Warrior tank in nomads gear
    5x carrion longbow soulbeast
    1x full support renegade in captains stats
    1x base ranger heal build in rampager gear
    1x base mesmer boon sharing with staff an valkyrie's gear
    1x lb dragon hunter grieving stat
    And Teapot and his crew cleared multiple raids with this comp.
    Composition isn't something Arenanet designs for. Specific comps are not required for a kill. Composition is something the community decides is the best tactic available and rolls with it.
    It's not the only one that works.
    This "bad design" is a perception problem of yours.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:
    On forums i see many customers saying how the communities are great in raiding, in the actual game though i'm yet to ever see these nice and friendly sorts, at all.. ever.. Call it what you like but the proof is in the pudding so to speak, raiding customers aren't nice, friendly or easy going by nature.

    Have you ever once joined a training raid in Guild Wars 2 and interacted with the other players?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    This "bad design" is a perception problem of yours.

    I can't help but notice that composition included two healers, two support and six damage dealers with condition damage, that's the meta build composition for Raids. I also notice that their composition does have access to boon strip. In a sense it's a very good composition, where for one reason or another they used terrible stats and miss-matched weapons on, but the composition itself is meta as it covers all you'll need in a Raid fight. The "bad design" comment I made is about bosses in Raid wings requiring specific things, that others in the same wing do not.

    For an easy example, Vale Guardian requires boon strip, don't tell me you can kill Vale Guardian without a source of boon strip. However, Sabetha does not. If you build a composition specifically for Sabetha you don't need boon strip, but it's essential for Vale Guardian. For another easy example, Matthias requires projectile reflection, please don't tell me how doable the fight is without it. Slothasor and Trio do not require projectile reflection (projectile destruction is good though)

    Arenanet designs specifically for compositions, and the composition requirements change between bosses of the same wing. That's bad design and an actual problem. showing a composition that can cover EVERYTHING but with non-meta (or terrible) build/gear choices) isn't gonna change that.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    This "bad design" is a perception problem of yours.

    I can't help but notice that composition included two healers, two support and six damage dealers with condition damage, that's the meta build composition for Raids. I also notice that their composition does have access to boon strip. In a sense it's a very good composition, where for one reason or another they used terrible stats and miss-matched weapons on, but the composition itself is meta as it covers all you'll need in a Raid fight. The "bad design" comment I made is about bosses in Raid wings requiring specific things, that others in the same wing do not.

    For an easy example, Vale Guardian requires boon strip, don't tell me you can kill Vale Guardian without a source of boon strip. However, Sabetha does not. If you build a composition specifically for Sabetha you don't need boon strip, but it's essential for Vale Guardian. For another easy example, Matthias requires projectile reflection, please don't tell me how doable the fight is without it. Slothasor and Trio do not require projectile reflection (projectile destruction is good though)

    Arenanet designs specifically for compositions, and the composition requirements change between bosses of the same wing. That's bad design and an actual problem. showing a composition that can cover EVERYTHING but with non-meta (or terrible) build/gear choices) isn't gonna change that.

    Reflection is a bad example. There are 3 classes that can't reflect at all or have too high cooldowns. That is Thief, Revenant and Necromancer. Unless you run a raid with only those 3 classes you have the ability to adapt your build for Matthias. Yes not all of those are optimal but they work.

    Boon remove is an even worse example as you can slot in 2-3 Sigils of Nullification and you are good to go.

    Deimos would have been a better example as beginner need a different gear setup to do the hand kiting.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:
    For an easy example, Vale Guardian requires boon strip, don't tell me you can kill Vale Guardian without a source of boon strip. However, Sabetha does not. If you build a composition specifically for Sabetha you don't need boon strip, but it's essential for Vale Guardian. For another easy example, Matthias requires projectile reflection, please don't tell me how doable the fight is without it. Slothasor and Trio do not require projectile reflection (projectile destruction is good though)

    You actually dont need to consider specific classes for VG. If you want you can take a Superior Sigil of Nullification.
    Its really not that bad of a choice if you need a boonstrip. Slap it on a DPS on you miss out on 3% damage.

    As for reflect, 7 out of 9 classes have access to that. If you ever run a raid that only consist of renegades and necros you run into a problem, but otherwise you are covered for that. Its still stupid and not effective depending on the class but still, It does work with proper builds.

    And tbh. i think those are the only raids where you have to bring something specific.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    How is "easily slot" 2-3 sigils of nullification not a "specific composition"?

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:
    How is "easily slot" 2-3 sigils of nullification not a "specific composition"?

    I would say that classes are a composition, not sigils. Those are part of a build.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @psyt.9415 said:
    Disagree. You have a personal perception that GW2 is harder than other mmos which I disagree with. They are all difficult in thier own way. The ability to tune the raids to be more accessible is only limited by that perception. They can remove difficult mechanics or moves from certain bosses if they want, they can even remove certain wings if they want. They can add a stat bolster buff. they can add raid wide buffs that compensate for the lack of certain classes making them unnecessary. Theres lots of things they could do to allow a casual tuned raid to work and this is just 5 minutes of thought on the subject. But then again this is the same team that said dx12 would do nothing for the game and I get close to 30 more fps with the pxy. So im not surprised if they write things off before even trying it.

    Aside from all the reasons @Astralporing.1957 pointed out, there is one more, Raid wings in this game are badly designed because bosses inside one wing require different party compositions.

    Recently Nike issued the "Viability Challenge" A raid comp that consisted of:
    1x Heal Warrior tank in nomads gear
    5x carrion longbow soulbeast
    1x full support renegade in captains stats
    1x base ranger heal build in rampager gear
    1x base mesmer boon sharing with staff an valkyrie's gear
    1x lb dragon hunter grieving stat
    And Teapot and his crew cleared multiple raids with this comp.
    Composition isn't something Arenanet designs for. Specific comps are not required for a kill. Composition is something the community decides is the best tactic available and rolls with it.
    It's not the only one that works.
    This "bad design" is a perception problem of yours.

    So, which one of them is going to be a hand kiter for deimos?

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    How is "easily slot" 2-3 sigils of nullification not a "specific composition"?

    I would say that classes are a composition, not sigils. Those are part of a build.

    When you're talking about a "casual player party finder", you will get exactly what's on the menu. You can probably count on trait adjustments, but do not count on them being able to make any gear changes on the fly. The players that are prepared like that are the ones that likely won't be queuing for that system.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:
    So, which one of them is going to be a hand kiter for deimos?

    One of the Soulbeasts. Normal Mode doesnt need a lot of healing and if your group is good enough you can stay in the bubble during mindcrush, preventing it from taking extra damage.

    When you're talking about a "casual player party finder", you will get exactly what's on the menu. You can probably count on trait adjustments, but do not count on them being able to make any gear changes on the fly. The players that are prepared like that are the ones that likely won't be queuing for that system.

    Oh, i agree with you. It was mainly addressed towards the "Anet designs for specific comps" statement.
    I also know that my Deimos Handkite solution just wont work in these groups.

  • Zaklex.6308Zaklex.6308 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    This "bad design" is a perception problem of yours.

    I can't help but notice that composition included two healers, two support and six damage dealers with condition damage, that's the meta build composition for Raids. I also notice that their composition does have access to boon strip. In a sense it's a very good composition, where for one reason or another they used terrible stats and miss-matched weapons on, but the composition itself is meta as it covers all you'll need in a Raid fight. The "bad design" comment I made is about bosses in Raid wings requiring specific things, that others in the same wing do not.

    For an easy example, Vale Guardian requires boon strip, don't tell me you can kill Vale Guardian without a source of boon strip. However, Sabetha does not. If you build a composition specifically for Sabetha you don't need boon strip, but it's essential for Vale Guardian. For another easy example, Matthias requires projectile reflection, please don't tell me how doable the fight is without it. Slothasor and Trio do not require projectile reflection (projectile destruction is good though)

    Arenanet designs specifically for compositions, and the composition requirements change between bosses of the same wing. That's bad design and an actual problem. showing a composition that can cover EVERYTHING but with non-meta (or terrible) build/gear choices) isn't gonna change that.

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    This "bad design" is a perception problem of yours.

    I can't help but notice that composition included two healers, two support and six damage dealers with condition damage, that's the meta build composition for Raids. I also notice that their composition does have access to boon strip. In a sense it's a very good composition, where for one reason or another they used terrible stats and miss-matched weapons on, but the composition itself is meta as it covers all you'll need in a Raid fight. The "bad design" comment I made is about bosses in Raid wings requiring specific things, that others in the same wing do not.

    For an easy example, Vale Guardian requires boon strip, don't tell me you can kill Vale Guardian without a source of boon strip. However, Sabetha does not. If you build a composition specifically for Sabetha you don't need boon strip, but it's essential for Vale Guardian. For another easy example, Matthias requires projectile reflection, please don't tell me how doable the fight is without it. Slothasor and Trio do not require projectile reflection (projectile destruction is good though)

    Arenanet designs specifically for compositions, and the composition requirements change between bosses of the same wing. That's bad design and an actual problem. showing a composition that can cover EVERYTHING but with non-meta (or terrible) build/gear choices) isn't gonna change that.

    Reflection is a bad example. There are 3 classes that can't reflect at all or have too high cooldowns. That is Thief, Revenant and Necromancer. Unless you run a raid with only those 3 classes you have the ability to adapt your build for Matthias. Yes not all of those are optimal but they work.

    Boon remove is an even worse example as you can slot in 2-3 Sigils of Nullification and you are good to go.

    Deimos would have been a better example as beginner need a different gear setup to do the hand kiting.

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    For an easy example, Vale Guardian requires boon strip, don't tell me you can kill Vale Guardian without a source of boon strip. However, Sabetha does not. If you build a composition specifically for Sabetha you don't need boon strip, but it's essential for Vale Guardian. For another easy example, Matthias requires projectile reflection, please don't tell me how doable the fight is without it. Slothasor and Trio do not require projectile reflection (projectile destruction is good though)

    You actually dont need to consider specific classes for VG. If you want you can take a Superior Sigil of Nullification.
    Its really not that bad of a choice if you need a boonstrip. Slap it on a DPS on you miss out on 3% damage.

    As for reflect, 7 out of 9 classes have access to that. If you ever run a raid that only consist of renegades and necros you run into a problem, but otherwise you are covered for that. Its still stupid and not effective depending on the class but still, It does work with proper builds.

    And tbh. i think those are the only raids where you have to bring something specific.

    Now you've finally reached the real reason that the vast majority of the player base won't do Raids in GW2. Can we all agree that the majority(by majority I mean over 50%) of the player base is that which does open world through auto-attack with sub-optimal gear and skill? If we can agree on that, then not being able to bring their PvE build and walk through a Raid is the biggest reason they'll never try them, even with adding Strikes to try and draw them in.

    Furthermore, what ever happened to just playing a game for FUN, pure fun and not the rewards? Do you play Single-player games for the rewards? (I hope not) So why can't people play an MMO(which does not mean you HAVE to group up with others or even be social, it only means there are a bunch of other people inhabiting the same world as you are at the same time, don't use old definitions from 10 - 20 years ago, this is now 2020, times change).

    Why do you think mobile gaming has become so popular(last estimate is 3 Billion people worldwide play mobile games) and lucrative, because you don't have to think hard, you can come and go as you please, and it doesn't take a huge time commitment. You tap into that market with a PC game and you would be golden, I'm not going to say ArenaNet is trying to do that or tried to, but it would be an interesting exercise.

    Third, the purse strings are no longer in ArenaNets control, if you want my opinion, they aren't being allowed to do anything with approval from NCSoft West. I also don't think Raids are dead, just not being focused on like before, you might see one Fractal and one Raid release per year(which won't make either of those communities happy, but they're smaller portions of the over all community anyways), besides, didn't Crystal Reid leave ArenaNet and she was in the lead Raid designer.

    Yes...no...maybe...what do you want, can't you see I'm busy saving the world...AGAIN!

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    How is "easily slot" 2-3 sigils of nullification not a "specific composition"?

    I would say that classes are a composition, not sigils. Those are part of a build.

    And this is where you are wrong. My comment of "bad design" was within the context of an automatic group finder. So how would that automatic group finder know which player has such a sigil in their inventory to group them properly with others? For that matter, how is the group finder going to understand that the team -should- have someone with boon strip in the first place. Same goes for healers, projectile reflections/destruction and so on.

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:
    As for reflect, 7 out of 9 classes have access to that.

    They don't. Warrior cannot reflect without a shield, please don't tell me that you expect a Berserker with Shattering Blow to reflect Matthias attack back. There is also spellbreaker, but needs a dagger offhand.

    Engineer also needs to use a shield, and I'm not sure that reflect lasts long enough. The other abilities, scrapper reflecting with hammer and the turret reflects are rather situational/low duration.

    Ranger reflects projectiles with Axe 5, not the worst of the bunch, still requires a specific weapon and is not the most comfortable reflect skill to use.

    Thief has daggerstorm, but that has an insane cooldown, not really applicable.

    Elementalist can reflect with a variety of options, but still... the best reflects that require zero investment in traits, build and gear are Mesmer and Guardian. There is no comparison between them. Sure other professions have -access- to reflect, but having access doesn't mean it's good to use in a demanding fight.

    Same with the sigils, it's impossible for an auto group finder to guess the roles. In other games you select tank, dps, healer, and the classes that are assigned to those roles are mostly interchangeable. In Guild Wars 2 that's not the case at all. Notice how I don't mind that, in fact I prefer the more varied choices/builds in this game over the standardization of other games. However, as I pointed out, I do think it's a bad idea to use the different builds in such a way within the same Raid wing. Make a wing that requires reflects, boon strip, condition+power damage, healing, condition cleanse, teleport skills, and apply all of them on all the fights in some way, that way a group with the same composition will be good to go on all fights and won't have to swap mid-way.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2020

    @Zaklex.6308 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    This "bad design" is a perception problem of yours.

    I can't help but notice that composition included two healers, two support and six damage dealers with condition damage, that's the meta build composition for Raids. I also notice that their composition does have access to boon strip. In a sense it's a very good composition, where for one reason or another they used terrible stats and miss-matched weapons on, but the composition itself is meta as it covers all you'll need in a Raid fight. The "bad design" comment I made is about bosses in Raid wings requiring specific things, that others in the same wing do not.

    For an easy example, Vale Guardian requires boon strip, don't tell me you can kill Vale Guardian without a source of boon strip. However, Sabetha does not. If you build a composition specifically for Sabetha you don't need boon strip, but it's essential for Vale Guardian. For another easy example, Matthias requires projectile reflection, please don't tell me how doable the fight is without it. Slothasor and Trio do not require projectile reflection (projectile destruction is good though)

    Arenanet designs specifically for compositions, and the composition requirements change between bosses of the same wing. That's bad design and an actual problem. showing a composition that can cover EVERYTHING but with non-meta (or terrible) build/gear choices) isn't gonna change that.

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    This "bad design" is a perception problem of yours.

    I can't help but notice that composition included two healers, two support and six damage dealers with condition damage, that's the meta build composition for Raids. I also notice that their composition does have access to boon strip. In a sense it's a very good composition, where for one reason or another they used terrible stats and miss-matched weapons on, but the composition itself is meta as it covers all you'll need in a Raid fight. The "bad design" comment I made is about bosses in Raid wings requiring specific things, that others in the same wing do not.

    For an easy example, Vale Guardian requires boon strip, don't tell me you can kill Vale Guardian without a source of boon strip. However, Sabetha does not. If you build a composition specifically for Sabetha you don't need boon strip, but it's essential for Vale Guardian. For another easy example, Matthias requires projectile reflection, please don't tell me how doable the fight is without it. Slothasor and Trio do not require projectile reflection (projectile destruction is good though)

    Arenanet designs specifically for compositions, and the composition requirements change between bosses of the same wing. That's bad design and an actual problem. showing a composition that can cover EVERYTHING but with non-meta (or terrible) build/gear choices) isn't gonna change that.

    Reflection is a bad example. There are 3 classes that can't reflect at all or have too high cooldowns. That is Thief, Revenant and Necromancer. Unless you run a raid with only those 3 classes you have the ability to adapt your build for Matthias. Yes not all of those are optimal but they work.

    Boon remove is an even worse example as you can slot in 2-3 Sigils of Nullification and you are good to go.

    Deimos would have been a better example as beginner need a different gear setup to do the hand kiting.

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    For an easy example, Vale Guardian requires boon strip, don't tell me you can kill Vale Guardian without a source of boon strip. However, Sabetha does not. If you build a composition specifically for Sabetha you don't need boon strip, but it's essential for Vale Guardian. For another easy example, Matthias requires projectile reflection, please don't tell me how doable the fight is without it. Slothasor and Trio do not require projectile reflection (projectile destruction is good though)

    You actually dont need to consider specific classes for VG. If you want you can take a Superior Sigil of Nullification.
    Its really not that bad of a choice if you need a boonstrip. Slap it on a DPS on you miss out on 3% damage.

    As for reflect, 7 out of 9 classes have access to that. If you ever run a raid that only consist of renegades and necros you run into a problem, but otherwise you are covered for that. Its still stupid and not effective depending on the class but still, It does work with proper builds.

    And tbh. i think those are the only raids where you have to bring something specific.

    Now you've finally reached the real reason that the vast majority of the player base won't do Raids in GW2. Can we all agree that the majority(by majority I mean over 50%) of the player base is that which does open world through auto-attack with sub-optimal gear and skill? If we can agree on that, then not being able to bring their PvE build and walk through a Raid is the biggest reason they'll never try them, even with adding Strikes to try and draw them in.

    Just another example of a raid characteristic that doesn't appeal to the original adopters of the game. Not sure why it's such an afront to people to accept that, other than not willing to face the reality that raids were never going to be sustainably successful content in the game to begin with.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Zaklex.6308 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    This "bad design" is a perception problem of yours.

    I can't help but notice that composition included two healers, two support and six damage dealers with condition damage, that's the meta build composition for Raids. I also notice that their composition does have access to boon strip. In a sense it's a very good composition, where for one reason or another they used terrible stats and miss-matched weapons on, but the composition itself is meta as it covers all you'll need in a Raid fight. The "bad design" comment I made is about bosses in Raid wings requiring specific things, that others in the same wing do not.

    For an easy example, Vale Guardian requires boon strip, don't tell me you can kill Vale Guardian without a source of boon strip. However, Sabetha does not. If you build a composition specifically for Sabetha you don't need boon strip, but it's essential for Vale Guardian. For another easy example, Matthias requires projectile reflection, please don't tell me how doable the fight is without it. Slothasor and Trio do not require projectile reflection (projectile destruction is good though)

    Arenanet designs specifically for compositions, and the composition requirements change between bosses of the same wing. That's bad design and an actual problem. showing a composition that can cover EVERYTHING but with non-meta (or terrible) build/gear choices) isn't gonna change that.

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    This "bad design" is a perception problem of yours.

    I can't help but notice that composition included two healers, two support and six damage dealers with condition damage, that's the meta build composition for Raids. I also notice that their composition does have access to boon strip. In a sense it's a very good composition, where for one reason or another they used terrible stats and miss-matched weapons on, but the composition itself is meta as it covers all you'll need in a Raid fight. The "bad design" comment I made is about bosses in Raid wings requiring specific things, that others in the same wing do not.

    For an easy example, Vale Guardian requires boon strip, don't tell me you can kill Vale Guardian without a source of boon strip. However, Sabetha does not. If you build a composition specifically for Sabetha you don't need boon strip, but it's essential for Vale Guardian. For another easy example, Matthias requires projectile reflection, please don't tell me how doable the fight is without it. Slothasor and Trio do not require projectile reflection (projectile destruction is good though)

    Arenanet designs specifically for compositions, and the composition requirements change between bosses of the same wing. That's bad design and an actual problem. showing a composition that can cover EVERYTHING but with non-meta (or terrible) build/gear choices) isn't gonna change that.

    Reflection is a bad example. There are 3 classes that can't reflect at all or have too high cooldowns. That is Thief, Revenant and Necromancer. Unless you run a raid with only those 3 classes you have the ability to adapt your build for Matthias. Yes not all of those are optimal but they work.

    Boon remove is an even worse example as you can slot in 2-3 Sigils of Nullification and you are good to go.

    Deimos would have been a better example as beginner need a different gear setup to do the hand kiting.

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    For an easy example, Vale Guardian requires boon strip, don't tell me you can kill Vale Guardian without a source of boon strip. However, Sabetha does not. If you build a composition specifically for Sabetha you don't need boon strip, but it's essential for Vale Guardian. For another easy example, Matthias requires projectile reflection, please don't tell me how doable the fight is without it. Slothasor and Trio do not require projectile reflection (projectile destruction is good though)

    You actually dont need to consider specific classes for VG. If you want you can take a Superior Sigil of Nullification.
    Its really not that bad of a choice if you need a boonstrip. Slap it on a DPS on you miss out on 3% damage.

    As for reflect, 7 out of 9 classes have access to that. If you ever run a raid that only consist of renegades and necros you run into a problem, but otherwise you are covered for that. Its still stupid and not effective depending on the class but still, It does work with proper builds.

    And tbh. i think those are the only raids where you have to bring something specific.

    Now you've finally reached the real reason that the vast majority of the player base won't do Raids in GW2. Can we all agree that the majority(by majority I mean over 50%) of the player base is that which does open world through auto-attack with sub-optimal gear and skill? If we can agree on that, then not being able to bring their PvE build and walk through a Raid is the biggest reason they'll never try them, even with adding Strikes to try and draw them in.

    Just another example of a raid characteristic that doesn't appeal to the original adopters of the game. Not sure why it's such an afront to people to accept that, other than not willing to face the reality that raids were never going to be sustainably successful content in the game to begin with.

    Because the argument is based on a faulty premise (just my two cents here :) )

    For example the dungeon community is also part of the original adopters and part of those enjoyed switching builds. The game is made in such a way swapping builds is expected

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Thief has daggerstorm, but that has an insane cooldown, not really applicable.

    Daredevil Auto attack reflects. The third one at least. You could probably break his bubble after two of his shard attacks. Which tbh. isnt that much worse than pugs. They often need a backup reflect for that, so this might work.

    Elementalist can reflect with a variety of options, but still... the best reflects that require zero investment in traits, build and gear are Mesmer and Guardian. There is no comparison between them. Sure other professions have -access- to reflect, but having access doesn't mean it's good to use in a demanding fight.

    Sure, this is mostly for heal Ele, but you can spam Magnetic Aura. Cooldown on your skills is low enough and you can give it to 10 people.
    In all honesty, i know that all of these options are bad. However, it does show that you dont need a specific composition. You can technically kill Matthias with Warrior Reflect. The people that are good enough to do this though wouldnt run Berserker for reflect though. Auto finder groups wouldnt really stand a chance.

  • Zaklex.6308Zaklex.6308 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Zaklex.6308 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    This "bad design" is a perception problem of yours.

    I can't help but notice that composition included two healers, two support and six damage dealers with condition damage, that's the meta build composition for Raids. I also notice that their composition does have access to boon strip. In a sense it's a very good composition, where for one reason or another they used terrible stats and miss-matched weapons on, but the composition itself is meta as it covers all you'll need in a Raid fight. The "bad design" comment I made is about bosses in Raid wings requiring specific things, that others in the same wing do not.

    For an easy example, Vale Guardian requires boon strip, don't tell me you can kill Vale Guardian without a source of boon strip. However, Sabetha does not. If you build a composition specifically for Sabetha you don't need boon strip, but it's essential for Vale Guardian. For another easy example, Matthias requires projectile reflection, please don't tell me how doable the fight is without it. Slothasor and Trio do not require projectile reflection (projectile destruction is good though)

    Arenanet designs specifically for compositions, and the composition requirements change between bosses of the same wing. That's bad design and an actual problem. showing a composition that can cover EVERYTHING but with non-meta (or terrible) build/gear choices) isn't gonna change that.

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    This "bad design" is a perception problem of yours.

    I can't help but notice that composition included two healers, two support and six damage dealers with condition damage, that's the meta build composition for Raids. I also notice that their composition does have access to boon strip. In a sense it's a very good composition, where for one reason or another they used terrible stats and miss-matched weapons on, but the composition itself is meta as it covers all you'll need in a Raid fight. The "bad design" comment I made is about bosses in Raid wings requiring specific things, that others in the same wing do not.

    For an easy example, Vale Guardian requires boon strip, don't tell me you can kill Vale Guardian without a source of boon strip. However, Sabetha does not. If you build a composition specifically for Sabetha you don't need boon strip, but it's essential for Vale Guardian. For another easy example, Matthias requires projectile reflection, please don't tell me how doable the fight is without it. Slothasor and Trio do not require projectile reflection (projectile destruction is good though)

    Arenanet designs specifically for compositions, and the composition requirements change between bosses of the same wing. That's bad design and an actual problem. showing a composition that can cover EVERYTHING but with non-meta (or terrible) build/gear choices) isn't gonna change that.

    Reflection is a bad example. There are 3 classes that can't reflect at all or have too high cooldowns. That is Thief, Revenant and Necromancer. Unless you run a raid with only those 3 classes you have the ability to adapt your build for Matthias. Yes not all of those are optimal but they work.

    Boon remove is an even worse example as you can slot in 2-3 Sigils of Nullification and you are good to go.

    Deimos would have been a better example as beginner need a different gear setup to do the hand kiting.

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    For an easy example, Vale Guardian requires boon strip, don't tell me you can kill Vale Guardian without a source of boon strip. However, Sabetha does not. If you build a composition specifically for Sabetha you don't need boon strip, but it's essential for Vale Guardian. For another easy example, Matthias requires projectile reflection, please don't tell me how doable the fight is without it. Slothasor and Trio do not require projectile reflection (projectile destruction is good though)

    You actually dont need to consider specific classes for VG. If you want you can take a Superior Sigil of Nullification.
    Its really not that bad of a choice if you need a boonstrip. Slap it on a DPS on you miss out on 3% damage.

    As for reflect, 7 out of 9 classes have access to that. If you ever run a raid that only consist of renegades and necros you run into a problem, but otherwise you are covered for that. Its still stupid and not effective depending on the class but still, It does work with proper builds.

    And tbh. i think those are the only raids where you have to bring something specific.

    Now you've finally reached the real reason that the vast majority of the player base won't do Raids in GW2. Can we all agree that the majority(by majority I mean over 50%) of the player base is that which does open world through auto-attack with sub-optimal gear and skill? If we can agree on that, then not being able to bring their PvE build and walk through a Raid is the biggest reason they'll never try them, even with adding Strikes to try and draw them in.

    Just another example of a raid characteristic that doesn't appeal to the original adopters of the game. Not sure why it's such an afront to people to accept that, other than not willing to face the reality that raids were never going to be sustainably successful content in the game to begin with.

    Because the argument is based on a faulty premise (just my two cents here :) )

    For example the dungeon community is also part of the original adopters and part of those enjoyed switching builds. The game is made in such a way swapping builds is expected

    You may have not noticed that I said my point was only valid if we could agree on the fact that the majority is over 50% of players, based on that assumption it leaves a lot of room for other types of play styles, including those that like to swap builds(which by the way was not the expected behavior, hence no build templates at launch). Also, your example of the dungeon community isn't really a strong one as those could easily be beaten with a single build and were easily cheesed so that you didn't have to bother with the trash mobs(a failure on ArenaNets part, imo).

    I also disagree with premise that Raids once introduced to GW2 were never going to be a sustainable content, all content is sustainable, if intent is properly communicated to the community that plays that content. Unfortunately that community got spoiled with the early release schedule based on the fast the first 3 Wings were practically ready to go at the launch of HoT, had they bothered to tell the community from the get go that in the future they could expect one to two releases per year, POSSIBLY, then expectations wouldn't have been unrealistic.

    Yes...no...maybe...what do you want, can't you see I'm busy saving the world...AGAIN!

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:
    In all honesty, i know that all of these options are bad. However, it does show that you dont need a specific composition. You can technically kill Matthias with Warrior Reflect. The people that are good enough to do this though wouldnt run Berserker for reflect though. Auto finder groups wouldnt really stand a chance.

    Yep that's what I was saying. So it's not my perception that is the problem as @mindcircus.1506 said above. There are options, but most options are either bad, or only usable by actually good players. This does limit the options for average (and below average) players. And those choices are created by the developers when they design their content, it's not something the community decides, Mesmer and Guardian are the safest options for Matthias reflects because they can be cast from a range, all others require you to be in perfect position, which can fail if you have to deal with any mechanics. In other words, Arenanet designed that fight to require a Mesmer or Guardian to be in the group to succeed (especially for average and below average groups), while the previous fights in Wing 2 do not have such a strict requirement. Making an auto-finder pointless. Unless of course in the auto-finder "version" Matthias doesn't perform that attack anymore, same with every other raid boss, eliminating mechanics that have specific requirements is the only way for a public/auto-finder version to work.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zaklex.6308 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Zaklex.6308 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    This "bad design" is a perception problem of yours.

    I can't help but notice that composition included two healers, two support and six damage dealers with condition damage, that's the meta build composition for Raids. I also notice that their composition does have access to boon strip. In a sense it's a very good composition, where for one reason or another they used terrible stats and miss-matched weapons on, but the composition itself is meta as it covers all you'll need in a Raid fight. The "bad design" comment I made is about bosses in Raid wings requiring specific things, that others in the same wing do not.

    For an easy example, Vale Guardian requires boon strip, don't tell me you can kill Vale Guardian without a source of boon strip. However, Sabetha does not. If you build a composition specifically for Sabetha you don't need boon strip, but it's essential for Vale Guardian. For another easy example, Matthias requires projectile reflection, please don't tell me how doable the fight is without it. Slothasor and Trio do not require projectile reflection (projectile destruction is good though)

    Arenanet designs specifically for compositions, and the composition requirements change between bosses of the same wing. That's bad design and an actual problem. showing a composition that can cover EVERYTHING but with non-meta (or terrible) build/gear choices) isn't gonna change that.

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    This "bad design" is a perception problem of yours.

    I can't help but notice that composition included two healers, two support and six damage dealers with condition damage, that's the meta build composition for Raids. I also notice that their composition does have access to boon strip. In a sense it's a very good composition, where for one reason or another they used terrible stats and miss-matched weapons on, but the composition itself is meta as it covers all you'll need in a Raid fight. The "bad design" comment I made is about bosses in Raid wings requiring specific things, that others in the same wing do not.

    For an easy example, Vale Guardian requires boon strip, don't tell me you can kill Vale Guardian without a source of boon strip. However, Sabetha does not. If you build a composition specifically for Sabetha you don't need boon strip, but it's essential for Vale Guardian. For another easy example, Matthias requires projectile reflection, please don't tell me how doable the fight is without it. Slothasor and Trio do not require projectile reflection (projectile destruction is good though)

    Arenanet designs specifically for compositions, and the composition requirements change between bosses of the same wing. That's bad design and an actual problem. showing a composition that can cover EVERYTHING but with non-meta (or terrible) build/gear choices) isn't gonna change that.

    Reflection is a bad example. There are 3 classes that can't reflect at all or have too high cooldowns. That is Thief, Revenant and Necromancer. Unless you run a raid with only those 3 classes you have the ability to adapt your build for Matthias. Yes not all of those are optimal but they work.

    Boon remove is an even worse example as you can slot in 2-3 Sigils of Nullification and you are good to go.

    Deimos would have been a better example as beginner need a different gear setup to do the hand kiting.

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    For an easy example, Vale Guardian requires boon strip, don't tell me you can kill Vale Guardian without a source of boon strip. However, Sabetha does not. If you build a composition specifically for Sabetha you don't need boon strip, but it's essential for Vale Guardian. For another easy example, Matthias requires projectile reflection, please don't tell me how doable the fight is without it. Slothasor and Trio do not require projectile reflection (projectile destruction is good though)

    You actually dont need to consider specific classes for VG. If you want you can take a Superior Sigil of Nullification.
    Its really not that bad of a choice if you need a boonstrip. Slap it on a DPS on you miss out on 3% damage.

    As for reflect, 7 out of 9 classes have access to that. If you ever run a raid that only consist of renegades and necros you run into a problem, but otherwise you are covered for that. Its still stupid and not effective depending on the class but still, It does work with proper builds.

    And tbh. i think those are the only raids where you have to bring something specific.

    Now you've finally reached the real reason that the vast majority of the player base won't do Raids in GW2. Can we all agree that the majority(by majority I mean over 50%) of the player base is that which does open world through auto-attack with sub-optimal gear and skill? If we can agree on that, then not being able to bring their PvE build and walk through a Raid is the biggest reason they'll never try them, even with adding Strikes to try and draw them in.

    Just another example of a raid characteristic that doesn't appeal to the original adopters of the game. Not sure why it's such an afront to people to accept that, other than not willing to face the reality that raids were never going to be sustainably successful content in the game to begin with.

    Because the argument is based on a faulty premise (just my two cents here :) )

    For example the dungeon community is also part of the original adopters and part of those enjoyed switching builds. The game is made in such a way swapping builds is expected

    You may have not noticed that I said my point was only valid if we could agree on the fact that the majority is over 50% of players, based on that assumption it leaves a lot of room for other types of play styles, including those that like to swap builds(which by the way was not the expected behavior, hence no build templates at launch). Also, your example of the dungeon community isn't really a strong one as those could easily be beaten with a single build and were easily cheesed so that you didn't have to bother with the trash mobs(a failure on ArenaNets part, imo).

    I also disagree with premise that Raids once introduced to GW2 were never going to be a sustainable content, all content is sustainable, if intent is properly communicated to the community that plays that content. Unfortunately that community got spoiled with the early release schedule based on the fast the first 3 Wings were practically ready to go at the launch of HoT, had they bothered to tell the community from the get go that in the future they could expect one to two releases per year, POSSIBLY, then expectations wouldn't have been unrealistic.

    Tbh i was only responding to Obtena not you, sorry if that was not clear. I merely disagreed that the original adopters of the game somehow didn't want to swap builds. The game is specifically designed so changing builds is easy.

    Now i agree that my example was not the best one but their are still quite a few examples within dungeons where buildswapping gets used and is motivated. Reflect on Luppi, stealth in CM and in general etc.

    Obtena has been pointing out that raids are something the original adopter wouldn't have wanted, but the original adopters of the game are so varied that that statement is either completely empty or extremely arrogant.

    And as a personal annoyance with their statement is that its of the same type as, i perceive myself as being in the biggest group so my opinion on how the game should go is somehow better.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2020

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Zaklex.6308 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    This "bad design" is a perception problem of yours.

    I can't help but notice that composition included two healers, two support and six damage dealers with condition damage, that's the meta build composition for Raids. I also notice that their composition does have access to boon strip. In a sense it's a very good composition, where for one reason or another they used terrible stats and miss-matched weapons on, but the composition itself is meta as it covers all you'll need in a Raid fight. The "bad design" comment I made is about bosses in Raid wings requiring specific things, that others in the same wing do not.

    For an easy example, Vale Guardian requires boon strip, don't tell me you can kill Vale Guardian without a source of boon strip. However, Sabetha does not. If you build a composition specifically for Sabetha you don't need boon strip, but it's essential for Vale Guardian. For another easy example, Matthias requires projectile reflection, please don't tell me how doable the fight is without it. Slothasor and Trio do not require projectile reflection (projectile destruction is good though)

    Arenanet designs specifically for compositions, and the composition requirements change between bosses of the same wing. That's bad design and an actual problem. showing a composition that can cover EVERYTHING but with non-meta (or terrible) build/gear choices) isn't gonna change that.

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:
    This "bad design" is a perception problem of yours.

    I can't help but notice that composition included two healers, two support and six damage dealers with condition damage, that's the meta build composition for Raids. I also notice that their composition does have access to boon strip. In a sense it's a very good composition, where for one reason or another they used terrible stats and miss-matched weapons on, but the composition itself is meta as it covers all you'll need in a Raid fight. The "bad design" comment I made is about bosses in Raid wings requiring specific things, that others in the same wing do not.

    For an easy example, Vale Guardian requires boon strip, don't tell me you can kill Vale Guardian without a source of boon strip. However, Sabetha does not. If you build a composition specifically for Sabetha you don't need boon strip, but it's essential for Vale Guardian. For another easy example, Matthias requires projectile reflection, please don't tell me how doable the fight is without it. Slothasor and Trio do not require projectile reflection (projectile destruction is good though)

    Arenanet designs specifically for compositions, and the composition requirements change between bosses of the same wing. That's bad design and an actual problem. showing a composition that can cover EVERYTHING but with non-meta (or terrible) build/gear choices) isn't gonna change that.

    Reflection is a bad example. There are 3 classes that can't reflect at all or have too high cooldowns. That is Thief, Revenant and Necromancer. Unless you run a raid with only those 3 classes you have the ability to adapt your build for Matthias. Yes not all of those are optimal but they work.

    Boon remove is an even worse example as you can slot in 2-3 Sigils of Nullification and you are good to go.

    Deimos would have been a better example as beginner need a different gear setup to do the hand kiting.

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    For an easy example, Vale Guardian requires boon strip, don't tell me you can kill Vale Guardian without a source of boon strip. However, Sabetha does not. If you build a composition specifically for Sabetha you don't need boon strip, but it's essential for Vale Guardian. For another easy example, Matthias requires projectile reflection, please don't tell me how doable the fight is without it. Slothasor and Trio do not require projectile reflection (projectile destruction is good though)

    You actually dont need to consider specific classes for VG. If you want you can take a Superior Sigil of Nullification.
    Its really not that bad of a choice if you need a boonstrip. Slap it on a DPS on you miss out on 3% damage.

    As for reflect, 7 out of 9 classes have access to that. If you ever run a raid that only consist of renegades and necros you run into a problem, but otherwise you are covered for that. Its still stupid and not effective depending on the class but still, It does work with proper builds.

    And tbh. i think those are the only raids where you have to bring something specific.

    Now you've finally reached the real reason that the vast majority of the player base won't do Raids in GW2. Can we all agree that the majority(by majority I mean over 50%) of the player base is that which does open world through auto-attack with sub-optimal gear and skill? If we can agree on that, then not being able to bring their PvE build and walk through a Raid is the biggest reason they'll never try them, even with adding Strikes to try and draw them in.

    Just another example of a raid characteristic that doesn't appeal to the original adopters of the game. Not sure why it's such an afront to people to accept that, other than not willing to face the reality that raids were never going to be sustainably successful content in the game to begin with.

    Because the argument is based on a faulty premise (just my two cents here :) )

    For example the dungeon community is also part of the original adopters and part of those enjoyed switching builds. The game is made in such a way swapping builds is expected

    Again, as I already said, this is just ONE example why raids don't appeal to original adopters. The ACTUAL premise is that there are MANY raid characteristics that make them unappealing to original adopters.

    I'm even of the belief that if swapping builds was the ONLY factor here, original adopters would have embraced raids and they would still be successful today because swapping builds isn't that big a hassle considering the content that opens up when you do (just like you illustrate that some people did swap builds for dungeons.)

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2020

    @yann.1946 said:
    Now i agree that my example was not the best one but their are still quite a few examples within dungeons where buildswapping gets used and is motivated. Reflect on Luppi, stealth in CM and in general etc.

    Sure, you can swap builds in dungeons, but you don't really have to. And while switching can make dungeon content easier, it only works like that for players above certain level of skill. The weaker players are actually better off not doing that, and just playing as they always do.
    Compare that with raids, where "anything goes" is a strategy only the best players can safely pull off.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    Now i agree that my example was not the best one but their are still quite a few examples within dungeons where buildswapping gets used and is motivated. Reflect on Luppi, stealth in CM and in general etc.

    Sure, you can swap builds in dungeons, but you don't really have to. And while switching can make dungeon content easier, it only works like that for players above certain level of skill. The weaker players are actually better off not doing that, and just playing as they always do.
    Compare that with raids, where "anything goes" is a strategy only the best players can safely pull off.

    Yeah and that was one of the biggest controversies during the early days. That you can clear any content with any build. That 'Build Wars' is completely forgotten.
    And now that you need it, it's the worst thing ever because you can't expect 'casuals' to play the game as it was intended. With swapping skills on the fly.
    It killed WoW raid variabilty. No more multi tank encounters or other classes than the dedicated ones with tank tree.

    Steamlining raids for lazy people who don't care about utility and composition kills a lot of creativity for raids. It is not healthy for group content in the long run and should never be used.

  • Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2020

    My list:
    1.) Time Commitment
    2.) Organized Groups (Not easiest thing to pug)
    3.) Lack of Scaling Difficulty (LFR)

    If you could que with/without a group, get ported in once the group is finished, and there was scaling difficulty. More people would do it. Honestly they should scratch the Strike Hub and do the same. Might as well do it for fractals and dungeons.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    Now i agree that my example was not the best one but their are still quite a few examples within dungeons where buildswapping gets used and is motivated. Reflect on Luppi, stealth in CM and in general etc.

    Sure, you can swap builds in dungeons, but you don't really have to. And while switching can make dungeon content easier, it only works like that for players above certain level of skill. The weaker players are actually better off not doing that, and just playing as they always do.
    Compare that with raids, where "anything goes" is a strategy only the best players can safely pull off.

    Yeah and that was one of the biggest controversies during the early days. That you can clear any content with any build. That 'Build Wars' is completely forgotten.
    And now that you need it, it's the worst thing ever because you can't expect 'casuals' to play the game as it was intended. With swapping skills on the fly.
    It killed WoW raid variabilty. No more multi tank encounters or other classes than the dedicated ones with tank tree.

    Steamlining raids for lazy people who don't care about utility and composition kills a lot of creativity for raids. It is not healthy for group content in the long run and should never be used.

    The truth however is that people that can play the "build wars" minigame are already in minority. And while there's some overlap, it's not the exact same minority as people that like challenging instanced group content like raids (there are many raiders that don't like build wars aspect of it, and there are many build wars players that do not like raiding). Thus, you limit even further an already small target group for that content.
    At the same time, the greater and more important build wars metagame is, the greater the gap between top, bottom and average players, and the harder it gets to balance the game for anyone.

    And that is also not healthy (and to an extreme degree) in the long run.

    Build wars was an interesting concept, but one that worked only when the games had relatively small populations consisting of mainly heavily dedicated hardcore players. The moment those types of games decided to go mainstream, the concept became an anchor weighting those games down, because it was no longer workable for the changed, more casual population.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    The OP is the kind of deluded nut determined to ruin the game for us that thinks all we do is sit around and dance our way through Tequatl.

    And considers us "the minority".

  • hellsqueen.3045hellsqueen.3045 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    There isn't any ignoring and to be fair, this thread IS a speculative exercise so ...

    It's COMPLETELY REASONABLE to believe that raids aren't successful in this game because of reasons rooted in how the content was offered and ultimately leading to financials. Don't be like others and blame Anet through some complicated web of their actions for attempting to commit corporate suicide ... that's nonsense.

    I think it's much simpler than that; people didn't adopt GW2 for raids in the way Anet offered them. It just doesn't have the right player profile to support the raid content. If it did, we would have seen Anet maintain the raid release schedule.

    Sure, but that still does not in any way explain why raids were very successful in the beginning.

    You said it yourself, unless you have access to the correct data to backup your OPINION, you are runnikg on fumes.

    • They were new.
    • They offered unique items.
    • Progress was blocked in obtaining max mastery level regardless of if you used them or not.

    We are talking about over 2 years of successful implementation of content. Raids were not that new by then. Max level mastery was not required once fixed. Even then, there was/is a ton of very easy fights which allow players to get 1 kill. That does not reflect an overall interest in raids.

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    For example, I was progress blocked for years. I only go my first raid kill last year and I only got the game just before HOT came out.
    I have over 5,899 hours in the game and I have been playing for 4 and a half years. Which means for 3-4 years I did not have a boss kill which meant I kept going back until I got lucky enough to have some guy get cocky enough to prove you can take anything into a raid and anyone can pass and it isn't intimidating and that I should do them.

    Be honest:
    How much effort did you put in for actually getting into raids or playing the content? This sounds to me more as though you were not interested in the content and join a run by accident. That is perfectly fine, but please don't use this as an argument for difficult access. Unless you spent 4 years trying to get into raids, at which point I would try to understand what the limiting factors were in order to recommend how to approach this.

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    That same guy proved he was biased toward me because he made my boyfriend redo his entire dare devil build and make him hit 30k consistently on the training golem before taking him to get his done.

    I can't speak as to the "guy" and I certainly did not put such harsh restrictions on new players (though I always recommend players practice, and recommend easy classes), hitting 30k on a Daredevil on the golem is not really difficult or an amazing feat requirement. Half of that is pure auto attack, and the other half is using 2-3 skills every few seconds without even requiring weapon swapping. So while I disagree that such a requirement needs to be put up for training runs, I can't comment on why or how this transpired.

    I would recommend though not to judge thousands of players based on a singular event.

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    After all this, I haven't really been back into a raid since. I got my masteries and now I don't have a group to do it with because you can't just join anyone. I have made the builds to hit reasonable DPS, etc. but I still fear the community and nothing in there is worth dealing with the community that is there. I don't even like to join fractals full of jargon and BS that excludes people. I just want to get them done, I don't need a kitten speed run.

    Again, honest question:
    How much have you actually tried finding a guild or getting into one? Once again, perfectly fine to not want to join or find other people to play with, but please be critical enough of what the actual reasons are. If 1 bad experience is all it takes for you to never want to raid, I'd question your actual desire to play this content, which directly means you are not the target audience, which is fine.

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    Basically:
    The raiding community is shrinking.
    And people don't want to join it to keep it alive because the are shamed/feared out of it and the only way to become part of it is through training groups that force you to become as cookie cutter as everyone else.

    Find better training groups.

    An update to my previous response to you.
    Around this time last week, our group of people we are taking through for fun finally got our kill on Cairn and we proceeded to get through Mursaat Overseer and we had like a handful of our DPS that were doing very little because they are new. After monitoring them in raids, I have already taken one person aside and helped them improve on what they already had. They were a viper's scrapper, but they had taken a power trait line someone else had told them too, etc. But they told me they enjoyed condi but the Snowcrows build not only seemed complex, but really boring just changing between kits over and over and over. So I tried my best to make them a build they were more comfortable and I managed to raise their DPS by from 5-8k to 15-18k and they said they actually enjoyed the build I had given them.

    Most places are spending all this time trying optimize you to the communities standards of builds.

    My guild is making silly power point presentations of the raids to teach people what everything is as simply as we can and want to grow our guild mates to hit the bare minimum we need to get past raids, without forcing them into builds that aren't fun for them or they aren't comfortable with. Playing with my group has been the most fun I have had in GW2 raids, we are still garbage at them and learning but the screams and the hype because for the most part all of us are inexperienced was a highlight of our guild gathering on the weekend.

    Seeing all these players who were not confident making it this far and just genuinely loving the experience, made me so happy they didn't go through what I went through in the early days, getting kicked out of groups that you had made, that they didn't end up feeling like they were carried, that they learned something new and that they were growing as players.

    I stand by the fact the raid community needs to just chill out on all their build elitism, because honestly, you don't need all that much to do them. Knowing the mechanics really is pretty important, getting people to understand agony and to not get teleported, it was hilarious. But they all learned something and I am so happy for them.

    Founder of Affinitus Nemus [AFNM]
    "Join Us, We're Lonely" - Our Guild At Some Point

    JUST LIKE THE LORAX, WE SPEAK FOR THE TREES!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    There isn't any ignoring and to be fair, this thread IS a speculative exercise so ...

    It's COMPLETELY REASONABLE to believe that raids aren't successful in this game because of reasons rooted in how the content was offered and ultimately leading to financials. Don't be like others and blame Anet through some complicated web of their actions for attempting to commit corporate suicide ... that's nonsense.

    I think it's much simpler than that; people didn't adopt GW2 for raids in the way Anet offered them. It just doesn't have the right player profile to support the raid content. If it did, we would have seen Anet maintain the raid release schedule.

    Sure, but that still does not in any way explain why raids were very successful in the beginning.

    You said it yourself, unless you have access to the correct data to backup your OPINION, you are runnikg on fumes.

    • They were new.
    • They offered unique items.
    • Progress was blocked in obtaining max mastery level regardless of if you used them or not.

    We are talking about over 2 years of successful implementation of content. Raids were not that new by then. Max level mastery was not required once fixed. Even then, there was/is a ton of very easy fights which allow players to get 1 kill. That does not reflect an overall interest in raids.

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    For example, I was progress blocked for years. I only go my first raid kill last year and I only got the game just before HOT came out.
    I have over 5,899 hours in the game and I have been playing for 4 and a half years. Which means for 3-4 years I did not have a boss kill which meant I kept going back until I got lucky enough to have some guy get cocky enough to prove you can take anything into a raid and anyone can pass and it isn't intimidating and that I should do them.

    Be honest:
    How much effort did you put in for actually getting into raids or playing the content? This sounds to me more as though you were not interested in the content and join a run by accident. That is perfectly fine, but please don't use this as an argument for difficult access. Unless you spent 4 years trying to get into raids, at which point I would try to understand what the limiting factors were in order to recommend how to approach this.

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    That same guy proved he was biased toward me because he made my boyfriend redo his entire dare devil build and make him hit 30k consistently on the training golem before taking him to get his done.

    I can't speak as to the "guy" and I certainly did not put such harsh restrictions on new players (though I always recommend players practice, and recommend easy classes), hitting 30k on a Daredevil on the golem is not really difficult or an amazing feat requirement. Half of that is pure auto attack, and the other half is using 2-3 skills every few seconds without even requiring weapon swapping. So while I disagree that such a requirement needs to be put up for training runs, I can't comment on why or how this transpired.

    I would recommend though not to judge thousands of players based on a singular event.

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    After all this, I haven't really been back into a raid since. I got my masteries and now I don't have a group to do it with because you can't just join anyone. I have made the builds to hit reasonable DPS, etc. but I still fear the community and nothing in there is worth dealing with the community that is there. I don't even like to join fractals full of jargon and BS that excludes people. I just want to get them done, I don't need a kitten speed run.

    Again, honest question:
    How much have you actually tried finding a guild or getting into one? Once again, perfectly fine to not want to join or find other people to play with, but please be critical enough of what the actual reasons are. If 1 bad experience is all it takes for you to never want to raid, I'd question your actual desire to play this content, which directly means you are not the target audience, which is fine.

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    Basically:
    The raiding community is shrinking.
    And people don't want to join it to keep it alive because the are shamed/feared out of it and the only way to become part of it is through training groups that force you to become as cookie cutter as everyone else.

    Find better training groups.

    An update to my previous response to you.
    Around this time last week, our group of people we are taking through for fun finally got our kill on Cairn and we proceeded to get through Mursaat Overseer and we had like a handful of our DPS that were doing very little because they are new. After monitoring them in raids, I have already taken one person aside and helped them improve on what they already had. They were a viper's scrapper, but they had taken a power trait line someone else had told them too, etc. But they told me they enjoyed condi but the Snowcrows build not only seemed complex, but really boring just changing between kits over and over and over. So I tried my best to make them a build they were more comfortable and I managed to raise their DPS by from 5-8k to 15-18k and they said they actually enjoyed the build I had given them.

    Most places are spending all this time trying optimize you to the communities standards of builds.

    My guild is making silly power point presentations of the raids to teach people what everything is as simply as we can and want to grow our guild mates to hit the bare minimum we need to get past raids, without forcing them into builds that aren't fun for them or they aren't comfortable with. Playing with my group has been the most fun I have had in GW2 raids, we are still garbage at them and learning but the screams and the hype because for the most part all of us are inexperienced was a highlight of our guild gathering on the weekend.

    Seeing all these players who were not confident making it this far and just genuinely loving the experience, made me so happy they didn't go through what I went through in the early days, getting kicked out of groups that you had made, that they didn't end up feeling like they were carried, that they learned something new and that they were growing as players.

    First off: that is great news and congratulations on the continued success and more important: the enjoyment from engaging in this group content.

    Just so much: what you described is what pretty much what EVERY passionate raider has gone through in some way or another (except those who literally ONLY used PUG groups to teach themselves everything and stick it out). No one starts at the top and "excludes" other players. I have 2 semi casual groups of guildies who are slightly ahead of where you are with your raid group (aka the core and more experienced players have most bosses down, the difficult ones only a few times, the new players are as new as first kill this week). Both their process was exactly as you described, mine was similar years back.

    Getting into raids is a learning process on multiple levels:

    • learning how to cooperate with other players (this is a huge one actually, both in terms of socializing as well as coordinating builds)
    • learning the basics of this games combat system as well as compositions
    • learning boss designs and boss mechanics (this one actually comes at the very very end of the entire "becoming a raider" path)
    • learning how to find mistakes, learn from them and improve

    That's why the common suggestion has always been: please find a guild.

    That's why it is so disheartening to keep reading from players who clearly have not

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    I stand by the fact the raid community needs to just chill out on all their build elitism, because honestly, you don't need all that much to do them. Knowing the mechanics really is pretty important, getting people to understand agony and to not get teleported, it was hilarious. But they all learned something and I am so happy for them.

    The main issues that arise are almost always directly linked to different player skill and expectations (and yes, in some rare cases huge ego on someones part). The huge majority of raiders (if we assume normalized distribution between weaker, intermediate and elite raiders) are in the mid segment, in their own raid guilds, with their own raid progress, etc.

    In a way, your raid guild/group is far more similar to the majority of raider, even if still in the process of mastering fights, than high end LI/KP speedclear groups (which there is only a small fraction of compared to the total raid pool of players).

    That's what I and others have always tried to impart, raids are not that hard, there are groups of different skill levels, please start with the appropriate level of experience and go from there (aka training groups and such for very new players). Something else one will soon notice is that many guilds that raid, have more experienced players help the new comers (similar to how your group is doing), just as the groups in my casual raid guilds do.

    Unfortunately the first thing new players see is a LFG with massive amounts of requirements, because most players who go through the LFG are far beyond where a new player should start (and I personally think going through the PUG experience as new comer is only for people who are gluttons for pain).

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @DutchRiders.2871 said:
    Are we not forgetting something really important ? Raids were fine at the start of HOT, when ya know they got updated etc. But 10 months for 2-4 easy bosses is not okey.

    It was an illusion created by two factors - first was the fact it was a fresh, completely new content, and so many people wanted to try it out. Second was, obviously, legendary armor, that got many people interested, who otherwise would have stayed away from the content. Those both factors had a shortterm impact only, however. Most of the former players gave up very fast, either when newness wore out, or after they've seen this content is not what they're really interested in. The latter raided a bit more, but once they've got what they wanted, they left as well, as they never really cared about raids in the first place. Those things were never going to last, and they only obscured the real raid popularity.

    Idk we can compaire se4 and 5 and see similar results to post hot and post se3 raiding. Se4 lw was slow and while each update had content for that audience it was plagued by delays and issues which cause alot of ppl to simply lose interest in the game at the time, it also didnt help that pm every other part of the game is also suffering. Now compaire that to se5 that not only has a pretty consistent and delays free lw schedule so far hit its also quite regular and you will quickly realise that ppl are much more active and engaged with the game.

    Or we can compaire se5 to post hot lw which was non existent.

    A very similar picture is clearly visible with raids, they went from a period of strong cadense to one of bad cadense which also suffered by bad releases (much like se4).

    While i wont disregard the crowd that didnt get what they wanted out of raiding and therefor quit pretty fast, you are clearly downplaying the detrimental effect of the unsustainable cadence that raids have had for years. Raids in gw2 as well as most of the other content dont have an expiration date, unlike wow or ff14 were content is current and then stops being current when the new kitten is out that doesnt happen with gw2, not nearly to the same extend at least.

    The content in gw2 is required to be replayable both in regards to inherent fun factor but also rewards. In the end all content grows stale and ppl burn out on it which is why devs put out new content and game who do that see success while others see failure where the devs fail to provide.

    One notion i was seeing with ppl during the early parts of the raid and fractal slow down was that while this content is fun ppl cant see themselves spamming the same thing for up to a year or more.

    A notion that has plagued every part of this game at some point in its lifespan and the only fix for it is new content at a healthy cadense.

    We should stop caring about the type of player that spends alot of time at this game but has a very low skill lvl and yet still feel entitled. The real casuals dont give a kitten about balance and content, they wont post on any forums.

    And yet those very players you want the devs to not care about are those whose (un) happiness can decide the success of GW2. The real hardcores simply can't keep this game afloat. There were never enough of them in the first place.

    Having a plethora of diff content that supports diff play and life styles is healthy for gw2 because these groups of ppl bring something diff than the rest. The way i see true casuals bring bulk of numbers both in players and income while the dedicated pring discussions and advertisement for them which in turn attracts new audiences.