Reaching the Potential of Guild Wars 2 World vs World Part 2

If you have time, I advise reading part 1 https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/90860/reaching-the-potential-of-guild-wars-2-world-vs-world-a-message-to-the-developers

Over the years I feel that multiplayer games have beaten out single player games in terms of popularity. Examples include Fortnite, CS:GO, Dota 2 and so many more.

The reason I bring this up is that I believe World vs World would make an amazing standalone game. Does this mean reinvent the wheel? No, but I do have a few ideas that may interest the community as well as the devs. Some may be short term and some long term, either way, I believe this game has huge potential to compete with the big games out there.

The first idea is a big one and maybe a long term idea.Create a separate client and dedicated server for World vs World.Engine would stay the same.

This would make it much easier to market and reach many players that are looking for a multiplayer experience off the bat (no PVE content needed).Sub point remove barrier to entry so anyone can instantly enter the battle with gear that will “do the job”.

Next, market and advertise this new multiplayer experience through proper online advertising.

I imagine a video on IGN (video game news site) similar to the EVE video - (watch the first 2 minutes)

Replace the EVE video with GW2 World vs World video like this (my guild =))

In addition to a new client and sufficient online advertisement, World vs World should have:

• A constant stream of balance patches (we are starting to see more of this)
• A proper reward system focused on WvW equipment surrounded around WvW stats.
• A proper 15 vs 15 Guild vs Guild system
• Stat system
• Guild recruitment system
• Etc. (more about this in part 1)

Big thanks to Demonpuppet and friends for bouncing ideas off of.

Contact me for questions and thoughts. Email is alistairsw@gmail.com

“Have vision and never give up on your dreams.”

-awaken

crap engine would absolutely have to change lol.

Camelot Unchained is essentially trying to do what the OP suggests.Beyond designing and running such a game however, I see two large structural problems that such games will find hard to overcome. First, the RvR/WvW crowd is small relative to say the Battle Royale population. Players who participate daily in WvW style gamemodes across the various MMOs that offer some form(GW2, ESO etc) of it probably number under 100,000. The population that play BRs daily(Apex, Fortnite, PUBG, Tarkov etc) is in the millions. You're going to need a serious hook or fantastic marketing to broaden that population.That directly ties in to the second problem. How do you make money off a WvW style game? BRs, FPSs, or even mobile games are easier to monetize due to the large number of people playing them, and any company that wants to make money would frankly be foolish to sink large amounts of money making an AAA+ WvW game, when the playerbase just isn't there to support it.

@Caliburn.1845 said:How do you make money off a WvW style game? BRs, FPSs, or even mobile games are easier to monetize due to the large number of people playing them, and any company that wants to make money would frankly be foolish to sink large amounts of money making an AAA+ WvW game, when the playerbase just isn't there to support it.

You make money the same way they did, through cosmetics and season battle passes, which anet never bothered to do and is way too late to capitalize on anymore.

Those games have also become extremely popular through media such as twitch streaming and the personalities on there. Anet spent a couple years throwing money at a pro spvp league and then walked away, they did next to nothing to grow wvw outside the game and even within gw2 itself. GW2 still has one of the best combat systems in any mmo, but at the end of the day they didn't care about competitive play like all those games are, they were more artsy focused with this game

Also mobile games are pretty much pay to win single player games.

Lastly, GW2 marketing has always been terribad.

Faction/Realm based territorial PvP is kind of on the way out though because it doesn't have any prestige for guilds and they have no control over their alliances and rivalries. That's what you're missing in the comparison to Fortnite, APEX, Dota2, etc.

There is a market for faction/realm based games or WvW would have died long ago. It just hasn’t been managed well in GW2.

Other newer MMOs have also leached some of the players.

I think you are failing to realize why those games succeeded while RvR/WvW did not. In Battle royales, you can perfectly play solo or with a few friends. In GW2 WvW you eat shit if you go out alone. WvW/RvR type of games are about communities. You need at least 15 people to start being able to go out and play the content as whole.If you are more focused on single player, roaming is your only option which limits you to camps and some eventual undefended/poorly defended tower.On the other hand, Battle royales have a beggining and an ending. It might take 15min or 1 hour. WvW/RvR based games usually are all about the never ending conflit. It is easier to start playing Fornite than it is to start playing WvW.

Even though both type of games have similarities, they are completely different.

From what I have heard, Crowfall was trying to implement a gameplay system that could be something in between BattleRoyales and traditional WvW by setting "seasons" or something similar where an encounter had a defined start and end.

My point is that, getting GW2´s WvW as it is and putting it as a separated game would never work. However, If you could get the best things out of it, wrap them with some fresh ideas and give it the support that any PvP based gametype needs (balance every month, events, pvp encouraging mechanics) maybe you could get something that could work.

@Caliburn.1845 said:Camelot Unchained is essentially trying to do what the OP suggests.Beyond designing and running such a game however, I see two large structural problems that such games will find hard to overcome. First, the RvR/WvW crowd is small relative to say the Battle Royale population. Players who participate daily in WvW style gamemodes across the various MMOs that offer some form(GW2, ESO etc) of it probably number under 100,000. The population that play BRs daily(Apex, Fortnite, PUBG, Tarkov etc) is in the millions. You're going to need a serious hook or fantastic marketing to broaden that population.That directly ties in to the second problem. How do you make money off a WvW style game? BRs, FPSs, or even mobile games are easier to monetize due to the large number of people playing them, and any company that wants to make money would frankly be foolish to sink large amounts of money making an AAA+ WvW game, when the playerbase just isn't there to support it.

In my opinion, CU is becoming quite greedy.It is taking them too long to release the game while they keep focusing on performance about hundreds of people playing together. My questions are:

• Is that even close to be realistic expectation?
• Are they really expecting to maintain hundreds of players playing at the same time in the same map spot to be their main core feature of their game?
• What will happen 1 year after the release when half of the player leave (it always happens) and you end up fighing 50 vs 50 on an engine develop to sustain 400? Isn´t that a waste of resources?

@Mizhas.8536 said:

@"Caliburn.1845" said:Camelot Unchained is essentially trying to do what the OP suggests.Beyond designing and running such a game however, I see two large structural problems that such games will find hard to overcome. First, the RvR/WvW crowd is small relative to say the Battle Royale population. Players who participate daily in WvW style gamemodes across the various MMOs that offer some form(GW2, ESO etc) of it probably number under 100,000. The population that play BRs daily(Apex, Fortnite, PUBG, Tarkov etc) is in the millions. You're going to need a serious hook or fantastic marketing to broaden that population.That directly ties in to the second problem. How do you make money off a WvW style game? BRs, FPSs, or even mobile games are easier to monetize due to the large number of people playing them, and any company that wants to make money would frankly be foolish to sink large amounts of money making an AAA+ WvW game, when the playerbase just isn't there to support it.

• Is that even close to be realistic expectation?
• Are they really expecting to maintain hundreds of players playing at the same time in the same map spot to be their main core feature of their game?
• What will happen 1 year after the release when half of the player leave (it always happens) and you end up fighing 50 vs 50 on an engine develop to sustain 400? Isn´t that a waste of resources?

Hello, is this the Make WvW Great again thread?

I would like to add a mount stomp achievement. 250k mount stomps and we get a title like Ultimate Romper Stomper. Ty, for letting us assert dominance.

@awaken.2134 said:

• A proper 15 vs 15 Guild vs Guild system

I'd only add, don't limit us to 15s for casual GvGs. 15s is good for competitive but allowing for 20s and 25s will give more groups access without the need for experienced players and allow those same groups a place to practice fighting in a more controlled environment.

What this idiot say. Didnt read his book but sure he a dumb ass too

So... GW3 mobile?

@thepenmonster.3621 said:So... GW3 mobile?

Weren't they already working on something like that, before the lay-offs happened a year ago?

Wonderful ideas for the WvW staff to consider if they already haven't! Great ideas Awaken

I like the idea

They could implant something Gigantic(free mmo) (i am sorry Ms Mod , before Gaile) , where a huge ceature acconmpanies your commander and absorve damage done to your zerg .Up to 90% is absorved and a ticking Dot on the commander, or the zerg (based on how building are NOT under your control - 1500/2000 /2500 damage per sec) + a creature abilities like Yashuo Windwall or an earthworm tremor (that reduces its spellcds based on how much LESS building you have conqered) .

If both yours and the enemy creatures are outside in the same time . They start fighting each other + no spells can be cast from them anylonger +but they still absorve damage done to your commander or zerg .They only thing you can do is :a) command them to turn 180 degree , in order to hit their vitals organs from their backs , but forcing the enemy creature to turn around they would sucrifice a portion of their health and take a blowb) wait till the enemy commander have taken enought damage (survive 15 sec) and will be highlighted as bright as day to kill him .c) Go behind the enemy beast's back and try to nuke him , splitting the zerg potential offensive power (the enemy commander can force the crature to turn his back , in an other direction)d) wait till the creatured absorved powered , stops after 30 sec (euxastion)

Creatures and abilities , can be sold in the Gemstore

@"awaken.2134" said:I imagine a video on IGN (video game news site) similar to the EVE video - (watch the first 2 minutes)

Replace the EVE video with GW2 World vs World video like this (my guild =))

In addition to a new client and sufficient online advertisement, World vs World should have:

• A constant stream of balance patches (we are starting to see more of this)
• A proper reward system focused on WvW equipment surrounded around WvW stats.
• A proper 15 vs 15 Guild vs Guild system
• Stat system
• Guild recruitment system
• Etc. (more about this in part 1)Interesting thread, even if the discussion is rather broad and open. I have been meaning to post in it for a while but have not gotten around to until now. Perhaps I can offer some additional perspective in what has been said so far, having played both the example and this game for a very long time. When I started playing GW2 in 2012, EVE was the game I retired from (after 8-9 years there).

Comparisons:In many ways the core of that game and this game mode is also the same. Out of all the products on the market GW2 WvW is what stands closest in philosophy and core design to EVE even if the difference in scope and ambition is vast. EVE also serves as the most obvious example to contradict a comment that has already appeared a couple of times in this thread and tends to pop up elsewhere when WvW mentioned. At its peak EVE (EU/NA) had 500.000 concurrent subscriptions. That is not a small community or potential customer base to appeal and appease. It is perfectly possible to make an RvR mode or full RvR game that is incredibly successful and profitable. To draw a crude comparison: GW2's smash hit release saw 3-4m copies sold. When EVE had those numbers they made similar profits, every year. While it has not held those subscription counts every year, it has bounced around 33-100% of that for most of the past 17 years. So they have essentially sold 33-100% of GW2's very successful launch every year for 17 years.

For anyone interested here is a tracker of the officially publicized online-player data (it's running in the launcher of the game):https://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquilityHere's an article with references to official data points on active subcriptions that can be used to extrapolate:https://massivelyop.com/2015/04/19/eve-evolved-how-many-subscriptions-does-eve-have/

EVE also serves a good example of how longetivity is also a valuable factor in a gaming industry that has become increasingly short-sighted in perspectives on profitability. That too is a discussion that is often swept aside with very poor arguments. Some people have a tendency to trying to shut down discussion by saying that companies need to make profit. That is not the question talking about MMO as a genre or RvR as a mode. The question is rather what kind of profitability a company is looking for and who it is for. If a company is built for its owners and employees (as has been the vision of ArenaNet) then they play a long game. Any time a company plays a short game, that is never to the benefit of its employees. MMO, sandbox and RvR is an employee-friendly design philosophy. People working at ArenaNet should be more interested in it if for nothing else than at least their own stability and self-preservation. Quick bucks are almost always to the benefit of owners, holders and ventures. I would sincerely take a look at how my own place of work handle those types of things. What they say and what they do. Anyway, onwards to the thread!

What GW2 is and has:Most of what has been suggested here is also how alot of community-initiated things in GW2 WvW have worked since the game released. It is also how the developer on and off have talked, they just haven't always walked the walk or at least not gone the distance. If anyone reading this digs up the thread I made a while back with 25mins of video collage of ArenaNet interviews and news commentary you will see that they have spoken about most of these things that are listed in the quote throughout these 7 years. They have just had issues with implementation, iteration and misfiring choices.

We have a "proper" GvG system at least in terms of intention. That is was the sPvP Stronghold mode was supposed to be in the designers' eyes. It was just a poor choice because it was designed away from the existing playerbase (who already had player-run events and were only asking for iteration on the tools they used to create them) and appealed to no one instead of appealing to everyone (sPvP, WvW and outside Moba players). They looked at industry trends rather than what their own players already did and wanted. That is a recurring thing with ArenaNet, they seem to take it as a thing of pride to be defiant in the face of their playerbase and communities, on many more matters than WvW core design issues and eager to reinvent the wheel.

When they do take in feedback it seems to only be statistical or quantitative feedback (just look at this forum), it is extremely rare to see them attribute any value to qualitative feedback where they actually have to interact and (two-way-) communicate with their playerbase. There are some exceptions to that eg., on Reddit on occassion or BenP with some partner-run stuff recently, but those are exceptions to an established strategy. This is a behaviour that explains most things they have done and still do when attention is given to WvW. It explains why even in next tuesday's patch they are combining an experimental system for existing players (balance groundwork) with a reward for non-persisting players that risks a clash between the two things and how they impact the players. Simply letting the existing players do something with the balance and then putting in a mount reward when things started to settle would have been a much more thoughtful solution. It's not that the skin is a bad thing, it is simply tactless timing that risks taking from rather than adding to the main part of the release.

What that means (and the quotes):So to reel back in towards the qoutes: Yes, balance is the upkeep work in a sandbox mode. Changes to the framwork that governs the sandbox is the development aspect of a sandbox mode. Yes, such work generally requires less resources and attention than work on themepark modes. However, it still requires sufficient attention and that has not been given to any PvP mode in GW2. Yes, they should make some sort of community-interaction system for WvW that allows players to engage in more of a meta-game within the game (a lobby, recruitment, communication and setting events up). Yes, there should be a proper GvG system that operates a TDM design. They made a mistake with Stronghold but the biggest mistake was not that the risk didn't pan out when they took it. The biggest mistake is that they have never iterated upon it. Between OS arena, sPvP TDM maps, GH arena, AB arena, EotM arena, sPvP TDM tournaments and Swiss they have everything that skirts around supporting the one thing that the GvG community has done in WvW for 7 whole years. They also skirt around the very things that EVE have always done right with their annual game-wide TDM tournament.

Again, people are going to say that 10v10 or 15v15 is not esports- or viewer friendly but in EVE it absorbs the entire community and the event has far more viewers than GW2 have with anything it does on the PR side. If it works there, it works here. If people already do it here despite being neglected and opposed, it works here. If RG is something players in alot of different modes still remember in this game, then it works here. If TA vs. Agg is still an event players outside of WvW knows about, it works here. If it works in GW1 and was something GW1 was known for, it works here. Everything suggests that it works here yet for some reason some players (and some developers) have always tried to sabotage it. It is mind boggling to say the least. EVE's tournament uses a double-elimination system so there is nothing that suggests that the work put into Swiss couldn't be repurposed for WvW/GvG as well.

GW2 does not have to be LoL or CS to have interesting competetive events (player-run, developer-supported etc.). Nore does it have to be Fortnight or whatever BF/CoD clone or a Sports casino/trading card game to be very profitable and successful. It simply needs to compete with the likes of FF XIV and challenge or inspire WoW to keep at it. At times GW2 has already proven that it can do that.

How that relates to roadmapping:The adaption also goes for the other major issues with the WvW mode. Alliances looks like a well-designed system from what we can see. However, so many existing systems are already in place that could be subverted and used to solve the other problems more easily. Change the EotM map and maybe people will use that mode more. It's the map that is a problem, not the mode. Use the outnumbered mechanic to solve the scoring issues. It is a very small change with a potentially major positive impact. Use the mega-server system to get rid of the queue mechanics in WvW, the assets are already developed. They could combine aspects of the PvP lobby and the EotM system to create a WvW lobby. Heck, even just changing the EotM map could serve that purpose.

That is the 1000-dollar question here, they already have all these assets and backend systems developed, why are they not using them and iterating upon them for the purposes of solving these problems? They don't need to design any jesus systems for that. All of these problems can be solved by iteration, by priorities, by a sense of urgency in working on those things rather than a mount skin. They may a bit more complicated to repurpose than the player on Reddit who recolored the portal tome but on a design-level alone (programming and reconnecting modules of code) some of these things seem almost as simple and neglected in the same way. They have the assets, if they understand their system they can repurpose them and use them. Making a map is not hard. Repurposing the use of the outnumbered effect and changing its values should not be a major programming endeavour, etc. They could be here before Alliances and before the backends of Stronghold, GH arena and the like could be tied together and they certainly should come before mount skins.

This was obviously very long so here comes the summary and an example of roadmapping:

WvW lobby?Repurpose the EotM map in the short term and iterate upon the system over time to make communication mode-wide, not color-wide.This should be quick and easy to implement. Small project, prioritize it.Score/Nightcap?Iterate and repurpose the use of the outnumbered technology. Encourage non-stack migration. Should be easy. May be less impactful 2020.This does not have to disqualify the work put into Alliances and can be implemented before Alliances and remain useful after Alliances. Small, prioritize it.The queue system?Implement mega servers on the map side (map, map-pop), does not have to disqualify alliances for world creation. Big project but prioritize it.GvG arena?There are 10 different systems already that skirt this issue, data should exist on what is needed. Implement it. Medium-large project, prioritize it.GvG ladder?It was said to be apart of Stronghold, can the technology be repurposed? Explore it over time to iterate on the arena.Swiss system?Can it be repurposed for WvW/GvG use too? Even just as support for player-run events it would be useful. Explore it over time to iterate on arena.A very profitable RvR game/mode?EVE has done itA game-wide audience-capturing GvG tournament?EVE has done itReworking the game-wide back-end and solving spaghetti code without major impact on the live product?EVE has done itSolving performance issues both on the engineering and the design side?EVE has done itCreating combinations of player-run, developer-supported (tools, presence, PR, rewards) and developer-run events?Eve has done it.

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@"awaken.2134" said:I imagine a video on IGN (video game news site) similar to the EVE video - (watch the first 2 minutes)

Replace the EVE video with GW2 World vs World video like this (my guild =))

In addition to a new client and sufficient online advertisement, World vs World should have:

• A constant stream of balance patches (we are starting to see more of this)
• A proper reward system focused on WvW equipment surrounded around WvW stats.
• A proper 15 vs 15 Guild vs Guild system
• Stat system
• Guild recruitment system
• Etc. (more about this in part 1)Interesting thread, even if the discussion is rather broad and open. I have been meaning to post in it for a while but have not gotten around to until now. Perhaps I can offer some additional perspective in what has been said so far, having played both the example and this game for a very long time. When I started playing GW2 in 2012, EVE was the game I retired from (after 8-9 years there).

One only has to look at how AGS gutted New World to understand that companies are not seeing a market demand for EVE like games despite EVE's success.

@Chaba.5410 said:One only has to look at how AGS gutted New World to understand that companies are not seeing a market demand for EVE like games despite EVE's success.True. At the same time, this company and this game intended to be more oldschool. It was a company for employees and had its design documents.

I've written at length about it before but to keep things as short and sweet as possible (while admitting that this is obviously just speculation and could be very wrong), I sincerely believe that Anet's lack of confidence despite the release success stems from two things: The publisher overstepping and a loss of competence following poached systems designers that was both difficult to replace but also was never attempted to be replaced with both other experience-levels and types of designers hired to fill the gaps. They became built for other tasks. Until proven otherwise that is the broad strokes of why I believe GW2 as originally envisioned, as an MMO and the PvP game modes have been suffering. For a while they attempted to cover maintaining their game and chasing trends at the same time but they lacked the resources, direction and competence. Since then it has been all about keeping ambition realistic internally, putting out fires and sweet talking to not fan the flames. That buys time but backfires after too much time and raises stakes/backlogs.

I also believe that this is why MO left. That discussion focused alot on internal direction issues and company size but I think it had more to do with direction interference and that it became a different company than what it was built for. I would be happy to be proven wrong.

As a certain line from a certain film says 'you're dreaming'.

How about some easy options like :

1) You gain 1 min stealth when you leave your starting base , to avoid griefers .2) If you are among the 2 lesser server , your defensive buildings are sourounded by mist , showcasing holographic platforms to step on and change the shape of the Keeps+Towers . Unmovable weapons for a single use appears , and you must rotate between Flamethrower/Scorpion/Minigun as fast as you can + 2 sec stealth each time .You have to kill firstly the people that are not operating the Ram (Rammer get reduced damageas long there are nearby alive people) . If you target more 10 people you unlock better weapons or get increased damage3) Sucrifice your 10% Hp with blood magic + Runic Symbols to streaghen the door for some sec . But you get 100% healing reduction4)Try to buy some time for the NCPs to escape .... try to help them because the got trapped/hurt while they where panicking and try to harash the enemies . If the NCps leave on time , they will move to another tower/Keep and will streghen it even more from further raids . Last keep remaining will be extremly hard to conqere , leaving you time to stealthy get another .5) Your Tower has Cameras/Oracles that keeps rotating (Metal Gear Solid) . If it catches an enemy is goes on alert and streghen the door .If you are the once operating the Ram you cannot get spotted . But if there is no1 around the Rammer , he gets increased damage from Flamethrower/Scorpion/Minigun (number (2)

edit : How about a moronic way , called Amnesia : :PA map where is limited visibility with fog and the x y z axis camera constadly changes .You have a replica/mirror NCP standing on the ''Y'' Plane where every1 can see it , but you are beneth it looking everything upside down/inverted .And the left side and right also rotates every time you loginhttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Cartesian_planes_and_axis.jpg .All constadly changes , to give you the illusion of new exploration, or ''curse'' the winning Dominand Commander and comfuse him for 5 min for his Head Trauma , or bad morning wake up

edit 2: How about a map is designed to be played from 3 dimentions and each day to change sides .Some hole which is too small to fit in normaly , and in the the next day it will be sideways => followa goatpath => and you can jump from a leghe throught that small hole

https://imgur.com/p0385iBhttps://imgur.com/3wyzGn8