I also, think that pressing F should just "outskill" anyone without stability and a billion defenses because you should lose a fight even if you "kill" them 3 times.

A+ Design choices game of the year.

I downed them 1 time before the recording started btw, 3 times total, there is literally no way downstate ever not benefits the group with more poeple and it has no place in any competitive mode in it's current iteration period. With the new balance patch we really need to rework downstate as finishing poeple with cleave will be even harder then. You can't possibly seriously defend crutch mechanics like these.

What kind of weird *** build is that. I don't get it. :D

@"Junkpile.7439" said:What kind of weird *** build is that. I don't get it. :disappointed_relieved:

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Necromancer_-_Core_Signet_Roamer

It's fun

@Jayden Reese.9542 said:Well don't heal the rev to full and that ranger is terrible except for timely kb's and you tanky af. I think that rando drake mob att you turned the tide. I guess you are skilled tho only possible answer cause I bet necro downstate never won any fight for you. Anyone can find random situations to fit their narrative like your mount crusade that lasted for months

Nope, necro downstate hasn't won me any fight 1v1.

Can you give me ANY situation where downstate benefits the outnumbered party more than the outnumber when played correctly? As you are saying i am talking anecdotes. How did downstate benefit me as much as it did them here?

If they are both terrible then why do i deserve to lose due to a crutch mechanic lol. Numbers>Skill in this game.

Mounts also still affect in-combat balance in negative ways, always benefiting the outnumber ofcoarse.

Sorry this is all on you, it has nothing to do with downstate. You had the chance to take stunbreaks and use CC at the appropriate time but opted for a less than stellar build and gameplay.

@Jayden Reese.9542 said:Can you give me any situation when the simple fact of being outnumbered isn't an advantage for everything for the side that has more. 2 v 1 has the advantage which you can compensate in GW2 depending on class because of stealth invul block evade spam etc. You chose tanky af core necro with no cleave then chose all signets and did you even weapon swap? Ima not watch again but a simple staff spam all 4 skill on the downed area kills one and keeps the other from rezzing. that ranger stayed in melee aa with bow alot like he bad but you played well and should win most 1v1s but thats open world for ya. Im sure that builds fun but and yeah I win a lot with necro downed cause rally of npcs or in close fights knock off their last 10 percent then necro downed wins easy vs most other downs unless they can't get outta range

Exactly, which is why we need to not have mechanics to help outnumbers when they have an inherent advantage already, like downstate.

I have cleave, my life blast pierces.

I don't fight around too much NPC's often so little rally, which is also a bullshit mechanic too, and once again part of downstate.

All you are doing here is proving my point.

That soulbeast should probably keep their day job.

~ Kovu

@"Anput.4620" said:

I also, think that pressing F should just "outskill" anyone without stability and a billion defenses because you should lose a fight even if you "kill" them 3 times.

A+ Design choices game of the year.

I downed them 1 time before the recording started btw, 3 times total, there is literally no way downstate ever not benefits the group with more poeple and it has no place in any competitive mode in it's current iteration period. With the new balance patch we really need to rework downstate as finishing poeple with cleave will be even harder then. You can't possibly seriously defend crutch mechanics like these.

Ehm as much as I am also not a fan of how downstate works in its current state (tldr I think it needs nerfs at least because its too tanky) you also kind of just got a bit "outplayed" after the first down, or they were just straight lucky that they happened to interrupt your Lich 3 cast which you could have opted to wait for them to start ressing to use. They also got pretty lucky on the second interrupt of your Staff 5 yet again because you were rather hasty. I can imagine the frustration was mounting at that point because you practically healed the Herald back to full health.

Downstate isn't within itself necessarily a bad mechanic...just in its current form it is just not great with how it interacts in PvP. Even if it had less health and res speed was slower you still wouldn't have won that. If downstate was gone, sure, you would have, but that would be like making the argument in Apex of "Well if they didn't have that whole downstate mechanic and revived their buddy I would have killed them all". Like yeah, sure, thats a thing but the mechanic itself isn't really the problem there. Downstate has a place, I think in PvP/WvW at least it needs to get a reduction in health and res speed should be slower (stomping should be faster too), but none of those changes would have really changed the outcome of that fight for you, despite unfortunately, for you, how lucky they were on their interrupts.

@Hyperborean.9501 said:Sorry this is all on you, it has nothing to do with downstate. You had the chance to take stunbreaks and use CC at the appropriate time but opted for a less than stellar build and gameplay.

I used CC but they had stab, i also have a stunbreak, necro is literally the worst vs CC and this build is a top tier duelist par mobility.

@Jayden Reese.9542 said:

@Anput.4620 said:

@Jayden Reese.9542 said:Can you give me any situation when the simple fact of being outnumbered isn't an advantage for everything for the side that has more. 2 v 1 has the advantage which you can compensate in GW2 depending on class because of stealth invul block evade spam etc. You chose tanky af core necro with no cleave then chose all signets and did you even weapon swap? Ima not watch again but a simple staff spam all 4 skill on the downed area kills one and keeps the other from rezzing. that ranger stayed in melee aa with bow alot like he bad but you played well and should win most 1v1s but thats open world for ya. Im sure that builds fun but and yeah I win a lot with necro downed cause rally of npcs or in close fights knock off their last 10 percent then necro downed wins easy vs most other downs unless they can't get outta range

Why would you ever like downstate if you are interested in any kind of fair matchup at all?

I lost because downstate benefits the outnumber as a mechanic, not because of the inherent disadvantage of outnumbered combat.

If i would have won while in no-downstate event it proves downstate is broken, as downstate would never save me on my own.

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@Anput.4620 said:

I also, think that pressing F should just "outskill" anyone without stability and a billion defenses because you should lose a fight even if you "kill" them 3 times.

A+ Design choices game of the year.

I downed them 1 time before the recording started btw, 3 times total, there is literally no way downstate ever not benefits the group with more poeple and it has no place in any competitive mode in it's current iteration period. With the new balance patch we really need to rework downstate as finishing poeple with cleave will be even harder then. You can't possibly seriously defend crutch mechanics like these.

I need shroud 3 to do damage, the build utilises longer fear durations and dread to burst lol.

Yes i saw the heal after the first life blast but i just got pissed after downing this person 2 times by then, for some stupid reason i had autocast basic attack on.

I had piercing cleave so i believe i could have out-damaged the res speed really. My problem here is that downstate works as a crutch for them while it does literally nothing for me, snowbally mechanics that scale by numbers have no place in any competitive mode imo.

If it was me i'd reduce downstate HP by 40%, remove rally and res gets interrupted on taking damage.

I just don't get why poeple here discuss balance based on what is "annoying", like stealth, i see so much discussion when i don't see stealth builds heavilly outperforming anything in either roaming or zerging.

Yet mechanics like these that save the ass of poeple that just spam 1 are heavilly defended, balancing/discussion often feels nonsensical. In most other PvP games i play most poeple agree with my points.

What Anput said deserve some reflexion. I agree that dammage nerf on all class will affect downstate a lot. But guess what, dont expect the game to be balanced after that patch, that also mean dont take stuff to seriously untill they balance the game. Its gonna take a lot of iteration after that big patch to get to a decent balance.

@Anput.4620 said:I used CC but they had stab, i also have a stunbreak, necro is literally the worst vs CC and this build is a top tier duelist par mobility.The first downstate he has no stab, it applies after the res is complete and while you quickly corrupt it in a good way he did beat you with a CC to complete the res.You are also rather late switching to the SB to pressure him and downcleave.

The second downstate is similar, you don't even get off your CC since he breaks your attempt to do it with his own CC and he does not look to have stab there either even though it's hard to tell because you lose your target on him when you try to swap in the staff fear.

I'm not commenting on the gameplay in general, just pointing out that specific thing. I think you had a good idea of what you should have done to win. You didn't pull it off though and had either of those things landed the downed player would have been dead.

@"Jayden Reese.9542" said:Why would you ever like downstate if you are interested in any kind of fair matchup at all?I lost because downstate benefits the outnumber as a mechanic, not because of the inherent disadvantage of outnumbered combat.If i would have won while in no-downstate event it proves downstate is broken, as downstate would never save me on my own.

Fair in gw2? I play on no down state week and it's dumb af. I kill players like it's nothing and I'm on reaper let alone what a war prob does or classes with a ton inv blocks or groups of 5 that run 2 dps 3 support and talk how skilled they are on that week vs pugs. No downstate in GW2 as a whole is what you want then the need actual rez abilitys like most games or pve content would be a kitten show. Imagine every fractal no downstate or even drakk right now for the people who can't hit spacebar.

Your main problem is you want to run a 1 v 1 spec in an open field map then blame mechanics that have been here for 7 years when you lose while choseing i niche build which severely limits you if a rando shows up.

Every other game in the genre seems to "imagine" all that content without downstate just fine.

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@Anput.4620 said:I used CC but they had stab, i also have a stunbreak, necro is literally the worst vs CC and this build is a top tier duelist par mobility.The first downstate he has no stab, it applies after the res is complete and while you quickly corrupt it in a good way he did beat you with a CC to complete the res.You are also rather late switching to the SB to pressure him and downcleave.

There were 3 downstates, 1 before the video started.

I just don't get what game design philosophy justifies me having to go through such terrible mechanics in situations where you are already inherently disadvantaged due to being outnumbered, is there any competitive balacing reason to give the bigger party an advantage in crutch mechanics?

I am just failing to see the logic and thought processes of pro-downstate.

It really kittens me off when i fight 40 vs 1 and get one downed and 39 dudes run and ress him before i can stomp.

If that video showes anything, then, as much as fire weaver in pvp, core necro is "flying under the radar" by Arenanet., about the risk/reward relation. And core Necro will get even even stronger with the upcomming patch.More than anything, any time someone takes another attempt asking for removal of downstate... isnt the more important question why Arenat allows certain builds to be so strong to even trying to engage 1v3 or even 1v5, still expecting to win...and if not, asking to remove anything that may hinder them

@"Junkpile.7439" said:It really kittens me off when i fight 40 vs 1 and get one downed and 39 dudes run and ress him before i can stomp.

Hyperboles bring nothing to the argument.

yeah "imagine" logically not just remove downstate and change nothing then i'll be great at the game. You need to fundamentally change kitten you can't just go remove it. Other games have rez skills or direct target able heals and the trinity type kitten multiple heals on short cd's. Like i said no down state week is garbage pvp absolute garbage. You kill in 4 s or you die in 4 s no counter play. players die so fast in a zerg vs zerg I don't even feel them it's just oh he ded now he ded oh this so fun and downstates adds a diff element and you know it's there so go play other games instead of I'm so skilled but downstate holding me back and mounts and plus 1s when that's the game and mode you are choosing.

All there is is a few traits, never said anything about PvE either just WvW, the main complaint was that damage is too high, which is getting solved and does nothing when you are on your own.

This game has rez skills too, like signet of mercy, you can also still res dead players in this game. Dying should also come with a cost aka being sent back to spawn to rez skills don't matter much.

I never die in 4s because i don't use trashy glass builds that try to cheese out a oneshot or get oneshot themselves. ZvZ you have broken FB heals and with the damage reductions you should only die if you are out of position and play bad, if you would die as a bad pug against an organized group then i don't see the problem, they were better so they won?

There is a reason that WvW is seen as a competitive joke/playground.

@"Jeran.6850" said:If that video showes anything, then, as much as fire weaver in pvp, core necro is "flying under the radar" by Arenanet., about the risk/reward relation. And core Necro will get even even stronger with the upcomming patch.More than anything, any time someone takes another attempt asking for removal of downstate... isnt the more important question why Arenat allows certain builds to be so strong to even trying to engage 1v3 or even 1v5, still expecting to win...and if not, asking to remove anything that may hinder them

Except that the build is weak to CC and has littleno mobility, those are the weaknesses. A warrior or a good pistol offhand thief will screw this build up.

If the enemy played correctly they would have made short work off of me, i literally faced another soulbeast and rev and i died fast, the average still level in this game is just through the floor.

If every party is off the same skill level and plays normal builds i will never win a 1v2, this just isn't the case, if i face someone i can imemdiately see if they are bad, average or good, and the good players beat me, it is just that average here is basically good as most poeple are just bad.

It's sad but it's the truth and i wish poeple cared more about mechanically improving themselves.

@"Jeran.6850" said:If that video showes anything, then, as much as fire weaver in pvp, core necro is "flying under the radar" by Arenanet., about the risk/reward relation. And core Necro will get even even stronger with the upcomming patch.More than anything, any time someone takes another attempt asking for removal of downstate... isnt the more important question why Arenat allows certain builds to be so strong to even trying to engage 1v3 or even 1v5, still expecting to win...and if not, asking to remove anything that may hinder themTo be fair revenant have much better chance to win 1 vs 5 fight that core necro 1 vs 2.

Fire weaver was weak to cc (in a "meta" of heavy boon corrupt), and did not have "much" mobility too... (dont need to have mobility to cap in pvp as a fire weaver anyway, wvw is a completely different story).But, i just feel you want to change a hole gamemode to your personal desires, and my opinion is, believing, that wvw is about player interaction, not certain classes builds go in 1v3, and believe, and trust, you should win by "skill"... and even asking Arenanet that a whole gamemode and its mechanics should change if not.

@Junkpile.7439 said:It really kittens me off when i fight 40 vs 1 and get one downed and 39 dudes run and ress him before i can stomp.

MeToo

All my mob diving days are ruined because of those blobbers ressing their one scourge.

D:

@Anput.4620 said:I am just failing to see the logic and thought processes of pro-downstate.I don't know if you fail at seeing the logic but the thought process is pretty easy to outline.

1. How balance works
2. How builds affect things
3. Planning and executing fights

Any balance in the game, securing kills included, is the least balanced at the scale's extremes. When the game is being balanced, the extremes are not what are primarily looked at so people who are pro downstate tend keep a broader perspective (1-50+) or are pro downstate because they play at scales where downstate - or the game in general - is better balanced (eg., 5-25). Hands-on ressing is obviously at its strongest in 1vX and at it's weakest at Xv50+.

@Anput.4620 said:Except that the build is weak to CC and has littleno mobility, those are the weaknesses. A warrior or a good pistol offhand thief will screw this build up.How good a build is at securing kills is a factor when choosing a build and builds can differ even when compared in a very narrow definition of scales, classes, specs and build choices. If a build is weak to CC that also goes to explain part of why it may be less apt at securing kills (because of who is likely to win a CC play/counter-play around securing a kill). Things that lets your build do certain things hinders you from doing other things. Looking at the specific build you listed it has quite alot of things dedicated to passive tanking and that may be part of the reason why you can tank two players at once but also why the build is less apt than others at securing kills.

There are too many variables to number 3 but just keep in mind that skillful reactive play, such as who lands a clutch CC first, is only a small part of all the things you can do in a play to make sure you secure a kill. Downcleave is also only one approach to- or factor when it comes to securing kills. Understanding positioning, mechanics, class mechanics and opposing class mechanics is simple knowledge, routine and knowing what to expect so you do not have to react as much. A different position or being on a different tool of your toolkit when you execute the drop can make a world of difference even if your opponent would come to win a clutch play as you will affect his timing and position as well.

@"Jeran.6850" said:Fire weaver was weak to cc (in a "meta" of heavy boon corrupt), and did not have "much" mobility too... (dont need to have mobility to cap in pvp as a fire weaver anyway, wvw is a completely different story).But, i just feel you want to change a hole gamemode to your personal desires, and my opinion is, believing, that wvw is about player interaction, not certain classes builds go in 1v3, and believe, and trust, you should win by "skill"... and even asking Arenanet that a whole gamemode and its mechanics should change if not.

I am just talking about downstate here lol. The mechanic is inherently flawed as it only favours numbers.

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@Anput.4620 said:I am just failing to see the logic and thought processes of pro-downstate.I don't know if you fail at seeing the logic but the thought process is pretty easy to outline.

1. How balance works
2. How builds affect things
3. Planning and executing fights

@Anput.4620 said:Except that the build is weak to CC and has littleno mobility, those are the weaknesses. A warrior or a good pistol offhand thief will screw this build up.How good a build is at securing kills is a factor when choosing a build and builds can differ even when compared in a very narrow definition of scales, classes, specs and build choices. If a build is weak to CC that also goes to explain part of why it may be less apt at securing kills (because of who is likely to win a CC play/counter-play around securing a kill). Things that lets your build do certain things hinders you from doing other things. Looking at the specific build you listed it has quite alot of things dedicated to passive tanking and that may be part of the reason why you can tank two players at once but also why the build is less apt than others at securing kills.

It doesn't matter what scales poeple play at, downstate may be more balanced in larger scales but no matter the scale it will always benefit the larger group more. There is no real balancing reason for the mechanic to be there as is.

I see what you mean on the second point but i have 2 points there, 1 being, if i down someone is there any reason i don't deserve the kill? Why don't poeple die when they are killed? Is there any fair reason for it that the bigger your group the bigger you should be rewarded? That sounds like the opposite of a balancing factor.

My second point, if this is about some builds being better at some things and matchups playing in, if that is true then why do we have builds like trailblazer mirage that literally do everything.

You still didn't provide a real justification for the mechanic as there is no possible situation where it isn't balanced, maybe a big blob fight where 2 parties have the exact same numbers, but anywhere else? Like downstate aside, how is something as nonsensical as rally even still in the game? It is a mechanic that favours the outnumbering side while losing, along with the less-skilled side, how is that good for any game? Crutch mechanics for less skilled players? Just so many things to point out.

Considering Anet has had downstate in WvW since ... forever, what makes anyone SERIOUSLY think it would be removed? That's the only question you have to ask yourself. There might not be a reason for the mechanic to be there (well, there is ... because Anet wanted it), but the reason to remove it better be WAY more compelling than claiming there isn't a reason for it to exist in the first place. There are lots of things in this game that exist simply because it's how Anet want them to work ... so that's a perfectly VALID reason for those things to be there.

Downstate is an ok idea for pve, mostly to replace actual healing and the lack of a real trinity. It has no reason to be in wvw. The video is a perfect example of that. What I see more and more nowadays is a player downed at under 25% of their downed health. Someone goes to res them and I interrupt them, the downed player immediately stands up anyway (with no one else around). Mount stomping sort of helps when you are outskilling a blob, but in most situations, it is a crutch for the populated side. Skill should beat numbers, and I wish anet would realize that and remove downed from wvw.

@Ubi.4136 said:Downstate is an ok idea for pve, mostly to replace actual healing and the lack of a real trinity. It has no reason to be in wvw. The video is a perfect example of that. What I see more and more nowadays is a player downed at under 25% of their downed health. Someone goes to res them and I interrupt them, the downed player immediately stands up anyway (with no one else around). Mount stomping sort of helps when you are outskilling a blob, but in most situations, it is a crutch for the populated side. Skill should beat numbers, and I wish anet would realize that and remove downed from wvw.

Maybe if you can't finish a player you are not as skilled as you think you are?

@God.2708 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:Downstate is an ok idea for pve, mostly to replace actual healing and the lack of a real trinity. It has no reason to be in wvw. The video is a perfect example of that. What I see more and more nowadays is a player downed at under 25% of their downed health. Someone goes to res them and I interrupt them, the downed player immediately stands up anyway (with no one else around). Mount stomping sort of helps when you are outskilling a blob, but in most situations, it is a crutch for the populated side. Skill should beat numbers, and I wish anet would realize that and remove downed from wvw.

Oh, I'm not skilled at all. But, for example, when you stumble on a 1v4 to make it 2v4, and you down 2 of them right away, they just res each other until they win. Down 1, near insta-res, down the next, instantly back up...eventually losing the fight. Not because the enemy was more skilled, but purely because they had more people.

@Ubi.4136 said:

@God.2708 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:Downstate is an ok idea for pve, mostly to replace actual healing and the lack of a real trinity. It has no reason to be in wvw. The video is a perfect example of that. What I see more and more nowadays is a player downed at under 25% of their downed health. Someone goes to res them and I interrupt them, the downed player immediately stands up anyway (with no one else around). Mount stomping sort of helps when you are outskilling a blob, but in most situations, it is a crutch for the populated side. Skill should beat numbers, and I wish anet would realize that and remove downed from wvw.

Or maybe your build was a one hit hero and didn't have enough sustain to follow through?