Trade offs: Anets definiton and execution (an almost unbiased analysis try)

The trade off topic is rly complicated and even i needed to change my view on it (all in all i was right with all i said until now in other threads but it was build up on a different/wrong but sure less unlogical definition of trade off than Anet has). But lets look on the trade off topic how Anet seems to mean it (and i hope i now got it right, but in the end no matter how you look at it, its a big mess, anyway lets start):

First i need to define 2 things i mixed up myself (happens when you use logic while having good and fair and skillful balance in mind, instead ridig definitions/ political agendas).

Definitions

1. Mechanical trade off à la Anet: Elites need to give up some core mechanics/skills in exchange for the elite mechanics/skills they get. Mechanical trade off for Anet is ONLY about just deleting core mechanics in exchange for adding elite mechanics. Trade offs à la Anet have not rly to do with providing good, fair and skillful (not noobfriedly) balance in the first place and these trade offs do not care if elites are actually rly op or power creeped compared to core or not. If an elite haven't lost some core mechanics (for whatever reasons the origin creator of that spec didn't delete core mechanics before release in the first place) they will now get some core mechanics removed, no matter what. Even when an elite is not power creeped or not op compared to core it will still get a mechanically trade off in case it has none.How is it possible that elites even without mechanical trade off are weaker than core builds? Easy: that can happen because there are at least 3 core lines clearly stronger than the elite traitline or a specific combination of 3 core traitlines has better synergy than only 2 core traitlines with the elite. That is why considering the lose of a 3. coretraitline as a big part of a mechanical trade off from elites but Anet seems to ignore (-> 1. inconsitency).

Means all in all Anets trade offs are purely an political agenda that wants to remove core mechanics from elite specs in exchange for elite stuff no matter what and are not meant as mindful balance move in the first place.

2. Aside from mechanical trade offs ala Anet we also can find other mechanics build into elites to prevent them from being op and power creeped compared to core. This other mechanic is based on inherent costs of elite specs (in previous posts i named them inherent trade offs but that was too confusing near to Anets label):Inherent costs are what some elties have, to prevent power creep from elites compared to core in the first place. These inherent costs limiting the usage of the elite mechanic down to a balanced, not op and not power creeped lvl (at least they can do that when well designed and correct adjusted) without deleting core mechanics itself and they often do that in a way that adds skill ceiling on top of the elite mechanic (which often already have higher skill ceiling, more tactical deepness and higher mechanical complexity than core builds, just from their basic mechanics, means not considering if some elites are op and only because of the opness easier to play).Few examples for such well designed inherent costs which prevent power creep compared to core and have the theoretical ability to balance out the whole elite mechanic to a not op lvl compared to core without adding a mechanical trade off à la Anet area). heat on Holob). increased cd on attunement swap after overloading on Tempestc). lock out from dual skills on core skills when not double attuning on Weaverd). Mirage inherent costs are a compared to other classes same or even more limited class mechanic resource (=dodges, incl endurance reggen) while creating the need to dodge for more than just avoiding attacks, leading to higher opportunity costs in dodge management (as long as ambushes are well designed, what is not the case on Condimirage). Also giving Mirage with IH the worst dodge trait in the game (which should be a minor because it is an elite spec nature defining mechanic) needs build-up actions from the player or the usage of another trait (DE) to work as intended (reward on each dodge just as all dodge traits). Also has a dodge cannot jumpdodge to higher the dodge distance and also can be slowed down by cripple and chill.e). Than we have the tricky specs Soulbeast. Soulbeast also has inherent costs for using elite mechanic by completely giving up class defining core mechanic of having pets running with him while merged. A completely petless Ranger spec would not be a Ranger anymore, just like a Thief without initiative mechanic or a Warrior without adrenaline mechanic would not be a kind of Thief or Warrior anymore. This is a bit more than just an inherent cost, this is something can be called mechanical trade off, also from Anets point of view, also in Anets definition of trade off. But Anet doesn't subsume it under their trade off (-> 2. inconsistency).

Inherent costs are NO TRADE OFFS in Anets definition (because they don't remove core mechanics, they only limit the usage of elite mechanics). Even though inherent costs seems to be what is more directed to rly fairly balancing out eltie specs in a way that higher skill ceiling while preventing them from overperforming and power creeping compared to core. That is a big difference to Anets trade offs, which do not care for good balance in the first place (i mean ofc the secondary goal from the trade offs is reducing power creep, but an overall good and fair balance is not included in the way trade offs get implemented). Anets mechanical trade offs are only searching for elites specs not having core mechanics removed right from release and then searching for some core mechanics to remove, and they do that like a robot. That sometimes some needed core mechanics (elites are always based on core, some core mechanics are absolutely fundamental for the elite to even work, like IP on Chrono) and even inherent costs get deleted from those mechanical trade offs doesn't rly matter in the first place it seems. That you can reduce power creep often in a by far better way and that some trade offs are contrary to and for that destroying core class mechanic or the elite mechanic doesn't matter either it seems.

But the biggest issue i have when looking at inherent costs of elites vs Anets mechanical trade offs is, that Anet doesn't consider the already existing inherent costs while creating their trade offs. Like elites which already have inherent costs implemented should get a softer/ lower/ minor trade off, means a less hard trade off compared to elites without inherent costs implemented (-> 3. inconsistency). This can lead to an unfair harder treatment of elite specs which already have inherent costs aside from mechanical trade offs à la Anet.

After we now have defined mechanical trade offs à la Anet and contrary to trade offs defined the inherent costs, we now can look deeper into the way these trade offs got executed by Anet:

Execution of trade offs - analysis

Based on that Anet definition of trade off as only mechanical trade off, there are now different ways to delete core mechanics from elites:

1. The core mechanic can be just replaced by elite mechanic (and it obviously doesn't matter if the replacing elite skills or elite mechanics are straight up better or worse than the core ones, another unlogical step and -> 4. inconsistency in terms of do we want good balance and reduce power creep only where needed or do we just want a trade off for the sake of a trade off).From this point of view you can say all Guard specs (yes even FB, they lose core Virtues, no matter that at least FB got way more and i would say overall way stronger skills in return), Necro specs (both losing core shroud, no matter that Reapershroud is all in all, even included faster life force lose and being only melee, is still stronger than core shroud and for that power creeped, no matter that Scourge got overcompensated by shroud skills not locking out of weaponskills and by barrier mechanic), Thief specs (DE lose normal steal mechanic, Daredevil loses normal dodges just like Mirage and should not need a second trade off -> 5. inconsistency), Engi specs (trade off in Anets view is not the heat it is the lose of f5 no matter how stupid that is considering that they simply pre buffed core just before Hot release and could have done the same to core Mesmer to then call the core f5 shatter replacement with CS a trade off for Chrono, -> 6. inconsistency). All Rev elites (they lose core f1 and just as for FB it doesn't matter if they got better/ more or worse f skills in return and no matter that also here like for Engi they simply buffed and for that power creeped the core Rev spec instead rly trade offing the elite), Mirage (loses normal core dodges, that the new dodge is all in all stronger than the core dodge doesn't matter).

2. Or you simply delete core mechanics to compensate for stuff an elite got on top of core on other places. Comparing Mirage to Chrono you can see, that Mirage lost the normal core dodge and for that already has a trade off. During Chrono just got an f5 on top of what core has. Also Druid just got celestial avatar on top of core. Berserker Warrior just got Berserker mode on top of normal burst skills (and even though Berserker mode replaces core burst skills temporary, just like Soulbeast Mode, Berserker Mode still has access to the adrenaline mechanic, even tho the mechanic is redesigned on Berserker Mode). Both Ele specs have no trade off from that point of view. They don't lose any core mechanic and inherent costs for using elite mechanics don't count (already mentioned -> 4, inconsistency). To avoid the 4. inconsistency Anet then has another inconsistent way. Either they pre buffed core specs to avoid double punishment from inherent costs aside from the additional trade off (example Holo heat and prebuffing core with additional f5 skill to then trade off Holo with replacing core f5 with Holomode) or they simply didn't add any trade off until now (example Ele specs) -> 7. inconsistency!

So looking at it from Anets pov the way i understand it now (Anets nonsense and unlogical and NOT orientated in good balance and reducing power creep definition of a trade off) the only elites need a trade off in Anets view (because don't have one since release) should be Chrono, Ele specs, Druid, Warrior specs. Soulbeast if you follow the inconsitency and say it needs a trade off which doesn't even delete rly op and unneeded Soulbeast mechanics like the pet revive from merging (also trade off comes for the costs of deleting skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity from the spec while you could reduce op and power creeped stuff on Soulbeast with just normal nerfs, like stat penalty, lower dmg on individual skills from pets and merging, deleting double/triple rewards from overloaded merge skills, deleting the ability to revive pets with merging, higher cds on pet and merge skills.

Now lets look at some trade offs Anet did: Spellbreaker lost adrenaline burst lvl/ adrenaline bars. That is a simple stat penalty on dmg and would be a trade off makes sense while not deleting active gameplay options or skills from the spec. It doesn't change how Spellbreaker is played, it doesn't make the spec unnecessary clunky, it simply reduce power creep you have from giving Spellbreaker a second pretty strong burst skill with low cd. Sadly this well made trade off is contradicted by having no impact on the weapon linked to the elite (dagger) and on the strongest core weapon Warriors have (gs). Means the current meta Spellbreaker build literally doesn't have a trade off (-> 8. inconsistency). Druid got stat penalty on pets, a well made trade off, doesn't delete active gameplay options, doesn't delete skills from the spec, doesn't delete needed parts of core mechanic (elites are always build up on core mechanics, some core mechanics are essential for the elites to even work and some are not), doesn't contradict the elite mechanic (a support based spec doesn't rly suffer from lower pet dmg, it makes even sense that a supportive spec doesn't have a strong dmg sourge from the pet). Logically well made trade off. Reduced power creep, forces Druids into using his elite mechanic to compete with corebuilds in effectiveness and that without reducing skill ceiling, tactical deepness or mechanical complexity from the elite. Berserker got simple stat penalty (if i am not mistaken? Just less vitality basic stats? I am not sure here, couldn't find anything). If i am right then well made trade off for the same reasons i just mentioned.

Chrono meanwhile got 3 trade offs (reworking shatters to less dmg when target has no slow, they could have linked the f4 invuln duration also to slow or to current quickness uptime on chrono itself instead of clones or what ever). This shatter rework would have defined Chrono as different shatter spec from core with forcing it into chrono defining playstyle for more shatter dmg, Chrono would have lost core shatters as a trade off. In terms of Anets trade off policy that would have been more than enough and not inconsistent to what other previously named specs got. For adding the f5, they could have added simple stat penalty on mostly offensive stats and an little bit on defensive stats (like -150 power, -50 vita) to compensate for the more in cds Chrono get from f5 and alacrity. Instead they deleting an important crucial active defense skill completely on a squishy spec (f4) and they also deleted IP what is simply a needed core mechanic for all mesmer specs to even work as a Mesmer. Chrono got triple trade off and 2 of these trade offs are just unlogical and overnerfing and deleting essential core mechanics (IP is needed as baseline after they deleted phantasm playstyle on Mesmer. Shatter playstyle needs IP in any case to work as intended). Chrono is (in case you can even find a semi viable spec) clunky and unfun to play. Chrono is way harder trade offed than any other spec and that for no reason (because making specs balanced in terms of not overperforming or underperforming is not the first goal of mechanical trade off). Also again it mostly kills high skill ceiling specs like power shatter (wich only needed a Lost Time and MoP nerf to be balanced and skilled again) while braindead and noobfriendly playstyles like bunker or condispam with f2 cd reset are the only playstyles have at least a change to be semi viable. (Chrono over trade offed in an unfair and inconsistent way -> 9. inconsistency).While the Chrono trade off is undenyable completely over the top, the Soulbeast trade off in comparision to Chrono is arguable. I will not repeat all reasons why i think it is arguable (you can find my posts about that in the PvP balance threads) and why i would say Soulbeast got a second trade off also when using Anets definition of trade off and why i think normal nerfs would do a better job here.Daredevil also get a second trade off during it already lost a basic mechanic in terms of normal dodges (that the replacing elite skills are much stronger than the core ones we don't care for on other elites like Scourge, FB either, so why here? -> 10. inconsistency). Also the Daredevil trade off is bad made, it makes the spec unnecessary clunky by overnerfing the range of Swipe and on the other side buffing it in an unhealthy way by a broken unblockable feature on an range no los needing instant skill, what even compensates the trade off itself while holding the clunkyness alive, Daredevil got more clunky but also more broken at the same time (nonsense -> 11. inconsistency).

The change to Mirage Cloak never was called a trade off from Anet side if you read closely. It just feels like one because the change literally does the same as an mechanical Anet trade off (deleting core mechanics, even more deleting a game/classwide basic mechanic of having at least 2 dodge available. The minimum of 2 dodges makes absolutely sense in terms of giving the player the ability of reactive dodge gameplay and skillful management of endurence reggen/vigor in a combat system like gw2 has. It makes no sense at all (no matter how strong the dodges of a class are) to limit dodge bar to only one dodge. On not a single class that one dodge change would make sense, but in particular not on classes/specs are build around doing more with dodges than just avoiding attacks (that is why Daredevil got more dodges and not less). So no matter if you call that change to Mirage an additional trade off (what you could because it just is doing the same, by deleting core mechanics) or if you just call it a normal nerf move doesn't matter, this change is totally unlogical, it removes skill ceiling and makes Mirage even more passive (making pure offensive dodges and for that tactical and active uses of ambushes/IH completely impossible, tactical deepneess and harder decisionmaking and the higehr opportunity costs in dodgemanagement are gone), completely contradicts the elite mechanic itself by overnerfing the resource it actually needs to even work, makes the spec unnecessary clunky (if not unplayable) and hurts in particular high skill ceiling and active power builds more while not rly adressing the root problems of passive Condimirage. Once again, if we even see any Mirage after patch than you can be sure they will be even more braindead and passive (forcing players to trait into passive chaosline sustain even more and maybe even in addition to inspiration to compensate the lose in active and reactive dodge defense) and it will be condi or hybrid because condistyle is still ez passive playstyle (even on core Mesmer, aka passive condi dmg from normal clone autoattacks). And that dear forum nerf complain camper is contradicting the goal of all of you to make Mirage less noobfriendly. You simply delete skillful builds from Mirage by overnerfing them for the sake of balancing Condimirage. So don't be surprised when you will not find any Mesmer with a skillful Powermirage build after patch anymore.

Summary

Means overall: Even when you take out Mirage from the trade off equation and look at it from the PoV of Anet (the way i understand it) you still find a lot of unlogical and inconsitent moves. Not to mention that i would call the basic trade off definition from Anet, the whole basic consept of just deleting core mechanics for the sake of having a mechanical trade off (no matter if needed to reduce power creep or not) as right from start wrong. Just as ignoring already exiting inherent costs will not lead to fair and skillful balance. The whole trade off agenda then is also unfair and inconsistet executed and often ingores and for that deletes fundamental mechanics some elites simply need to work. Also some specs get double or even triple mechanical trade off (Daredevil, Chrono) while others factual have none (at least on meta build, example Spellbreaker).

This nonsense trade off agenda than gets added by other unnecessary normal balance moves like locking out Obsidian on Ele from skilluse and the Mirage destruction. Also it gets quite obvious, that simple stat penalty (Spellbreaker; Berserker and Druid have simple stat penalty as trade offs) are the best way to trade off elites because in that way you don't delete active gameplay options from the players, you don't delete skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity from them while still adressing the power creep.

I once again (even when looking at it from Anets PoV) have to highly recommend to overthink and change/ rework the whole political trade off agenda. It is inconsitent as hell, unfair designed, bad executed and doesn't lead into a more skilled, less noobfriendly, fair and healthy balance. It just either deletes problems from the game by deleting specs from the game without solving the issues at all or balancing around the real issue without solving it for the costs of more clunkyness and lower skill ceiling/ tactical deepness/ mechanical complexity of the elite (Soulbeast. Mirage, Daredevil).

self congratulate much

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:self congratulate much

Not sure what you mean, but in case you mean i am self clapping me on my shoulder while trying not to fall during it than you are wrong. I put a lot of effort and (as much as possible) unbiased analysis into this because i care for the game. I want it to have skillful meta builds and success in competitive gamemode without fearing on daily basis it might die out totally tomorrow. I don't want any class to get unfairly treatened, to get unnecessary clunky and unfun or overnerfed. None of these provides the current trade off agenda and some other outliner nerfs (Obsidian, Mirage). They do even more the opposite.

If i want to self-praise or just look smart i have easier and more meaningful ways in rl instead wasting hours of my time and a lot of effort for an old game.

Berserker Trade off: Gets a atomic bomb to the face by anet.

Soulbeast Trade off: Minor inconvenience.

The way Ive thought elite specs should have worked, is they should give players unique utility & playstyles, not necessarily more damage or sustain. For example, look at a core class like ele. They almost always will take the arcane traitline since it offers a lot of utility useful in both offence and defense, but you would then typically take fire/air for more damage, and water/earth for defense. The way I see it, by taking the weaver or tempest elite spec you should be trading some damage or defense by means of losing a core traitline, for double attunement or overloads.

The same can apply to most if not all classes. Engi almost always use alchemy. Thieves almost always use trickery. Warriors will almost always take discipline, and can take strength/arms for more damage, or defense/tactics for more sustain/utility. Taking spellbreaker or berserker should give players unique utility or the option to play unique roles (like condi berserker), but should make the player lose some raw damage or defense.

The class tradeoffs seem to be trying to achieve this, but the problem is that elite specs were designed to be more powerful in most ways. To completely balance elite specs, weapons need to be reworked along with traits, utility, and class skills, which is a monumental task for a small balance/design team. As a result we are getting odd changes like -300 to specific stats like with berserker or scrapper, or questionable class skill changes like with chrono. To put the whole mess of pvp balance simply, anet had a chance to make elite specs fit in with competitive balance, but they messed up and now its too late to fix properly.

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:The way Ive thought elite specs should have worked, is they should give players unique utility & playstyles, not necessarily more damage or sustain. For example, look at a core class like ele. They almost always will take the arcane traitline since it offers a lot of utility useful in both offence and defense, but you would then typically take fire/air for more damage, and water/earth for defense. The way I see it, by taking the weaver or tempest elite spec you should be trading some damage or defense by means of losing a core traitline, for double attunement or overloads.

Yes it was one of my points, that Anet ignores mechanical trade offs from losing a 3. core traitline in exchange for the elite traitline way too much.

To your other points: Often it is given what you say, most elites (not all) use a lot of traits to establish and buff a new playstyle a new mechanic. They are for that often less about dmg or sustain, they have the ability to trait a little bit for either of it in the elite line itself (often not half as power creeped and passive as you see in core traitlines) but mostly the 2 used core traitlines are what defining a more tanky or more dmg oriented character of the build as a whole. And often the power creeped core traitlines (in particular the defensive core lines and its synergies with the elite) are what makes elite builds just as core builds (see Core PU Mesmer carried by Chaosline and another braindead skill as MoP like crazy) op and easy to play. The elites themself often even add skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexitiy over core. Like Condimirage would not even be op without using broken Chaosline for example.

@bravan.3876 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:The way Ive thought elite specs should have worked, is they should give players unique utility & playstyles, not necessarily more damage or sustain. For example, look at a core class like ele. They almost always will take the arcane traitline since it offers a lot of utility useful in both offence and defense, but you would then typically take fire/air for more damage, and water/earth for defense. The way I see it, by taking the weaver or tempest elite spec you should be trading some damage or defense by means of losing a core traitline, for double attunement or overloads.

Its a lot to read so ive just skimmed it for now, but I agree with a lot of what you have said.

+1

This is pretty accurate imo.

Ty @Paradoxoglanis.1904 and @shadowpass.4236 for reading

@bravan.3876 said:snips

I don't really care I was just being dumb lol. it was only mildly annoying. and if you have to ask, then...

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@bravan.3876 said:snips

No problem, i even can understand that, i would not read such a wall of text in my free time either but i hope Anet devs do during their payed working time :smile:

Hi!

I saw one of your topics a few days ago I know it was not well received but I thought that you raised some good points.

I will give Anet props for the following things:

• Trying to make some specs viable with 2 different playstyle.
• The “patch with mostly nerfs” worked pretty well imo. We have a lot of different playstyles
• I actually do like that some profession (necro / guard) manage to feel so different to fight because of a “rework” of their core mechanics.

But:

• Some specs are getting bashed with tradeoffs while others are well… Fine the way they are just as you said.
• I just wish they would have decided to rework some aspects of e-specs to give a new role and not feel too similar to core.
• Some core mechanics are still not reliable.

My feeling is that the PoF e-spec came with such an insane amount of things(for all the PoF haters, yes a lot were op at release but right now a lot are in line) that they struggled to maintain the “balance”. Hence the trade off idea. This definitely is a good idea (in theory). It even allowed them to rework some of the HoT specs and give them a new playstyle.Then for some reason some specs got left behind. (Maybe because they are loved in a specific game mode? I love raids and want to see more [keep going they are fun!] but sometimes I wonder if that is why they are holding back reworks...) and they keep going deeper into the full removal of some mechanics even when we were reaching a good state. This is where it can be depressing. You suddenly see how things are not equal, you see how long some things have not changed and are still bad, u see that some professions / builds are fully cheesy (keep reading please not everything is depressing)

My Ranger centric experience:I remember being one of the few people exited for druid pet having less stats and staff getting higher cd baseline + cd reductions on allies because I was hoping they were preparing a rework to make druid centered around allies. Sadly I am still waiting.I was also happy that the devs said multiple times that the merge was a trade off in itself. I was just thinking they would emphasize staying in or out for a longer time instead of… the incoming change.

Getting 2 of my specs suddenly bashed and not getting anything else in return really made me want to take a break. (Mesmers, I might never like fighting your profession but I feel you so much.)Right now I am a bit excited because I stopped caring about being above mid plat 1 and only go with builds that “maybe” will be good in the future (even if they make me “a trash player that is only messing up people who truly care about rating”)Like many people I am thinking about 1 thing. Big changes are incoming and reworks are on the way (fingers crossed).

An additional note which could make sense for the balance:Some core / e-specs interactions are really strong. For some reason they changed on soulbeast how traits / utilities interact on merge. I thought it was stupid and all the non ranger players were fine with that (of course my main got nerfed :p and not theirs). Right now I barely feel this change and it works fine. But if you say on the forums that an interaction should be nerf you will only get “if that is e-spec / core interaction you have to nerf the e-spec not the core" Kind of weird hum… I am aware how hard it will be for anet team to rethink every trait / skill but I think they could have carried on.

Just a few corrections:that elites even without mechanical trade off are weakerHeat on Holo / Holo heatEdit : imo you change the interaction not the e-spec otherwise you possibly remove builds / variety.

@aymnad.9023 feelsok what you say. Not sure i understand your corrections.

i just say it can happen that elites without mechanical trade off are already weaker than core builds due to 2 reasons can lead to this, not that all elites are per se weaker than core^^ - nvm was just a spelling you mean here too.heat not head got it (lulz)

there are a lot more but im too tired to correct them atm

@bravan.3876 said:@aymnad.9023 feelsok what you say. Not sure i understand your corrections.

i just say it can happen that elites without mechanical trade off are already weeker than core build due to 2 reasons can lead to this, not that all elites are per se weaker than core^^heat not head got it (lulz)

Yes those were a few typos I noticed in your op. For some reasons head / heat appeared twice ^^

@aymnad.9023 said:

@bravan.3876 said:@aymnad.9023 feelsok what you say. Not sure i understand your corrections.

i just say it can happen that elites without mechanical trade off are already weeker than core build due to 2 reasons can lead to this, not that all elites are per se weaker than core^^heat not head got it (lulz)

Yeah that was not a typo xD That was just me writing it wrong all the time (mixing up head and heat, no clue why)

@"bravan.3876"

Daredevil also get a second trade off during it already lost a basic mechanic in terms of normal dodges (that the replacing elite skills are much stronger than the core ones we don't care for on other elites like Scourge, FB either, so why here? -> 10. inconsistency)You are so wrong /facepalmIts not a trade off its a slap in the face of mirage that get better evade as their main mechanic(well, at least mirage gets ambushes lul) while losing EVADE but DRD GAIN 1 MORE.DRD evades moving you side/back/forward(except the dodge that meant to travel more distance AND remove movement impairing conditions ) the same range with additional effects on it and unremovable buffs after an evade. Thats like if you would say STR warrior RECKLESS IMPACT is somehow is a trade off because its start to do tons of unblockable damage in the end.Daredevil - lost 600 range on steal, what he have got for it->lower cd on steal and its unblockable now which allows it to cancel channeled blocks, +1 evade, BETTER EVADES (they are no different from normal evades in terms of range/functionality but do extra stuff during/after evade).Posted only because you said that poor DRD getting a "TRADE OFF" by getting freaking better evades, you are out of your mind.

About chrono, like I wrote on mesmer forum, they can leave IP removed on chrono but if they do this, they have to double clones HP.(While also end the condi damage from clones to fix the balance issue it create in every mesmer spec.)Mean it will provide differents types of gameplay than core while having clone ressources not totally gut so that the spec can be played.Btw good analysis.

@viquing.8254 said:About chrono, like I wrote on mesmer forum, they can leave IP removed on chrono but if they do this, they have to double clones HP.(While also end the condi damage from clones to fix the balance issue it create in every mesmer spec.)Mean it will provide differents types of gameplay than core while having clone ressources not totally gut so that the spec can be played.Btw good analysis.

doubling clone HP would fix nothing, they would still die to any aoe in the game, and all it would do is make them generate more resources to the enemies.they can quadruple clones for chr0no for all i care, i still wont touch it when im playing seriously

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@viquing.8254 said:About chrono, like I wrote on mesmer forum, they can leave IP removed on chrono but if they do this, they have to double clones HP.(While also end the condi damage from clones to fix the balance issue it create in every mesmer spec.)Mean it will provide differents types of gameplay than core while having clone ressources not totally gut so that the spec can be played.Btw good analysis.

With global damage reduction it will matter and it's on a gameplay logic with trait like superspeed on shattered illusions

@Odik.4587 said:@"bravan.3876"

Daredevil also get a second trade off during it already lost a basic mechanic in terms of normal dodges (that the replacing elite skills are much stronger than the core ones we don't care for on other elites like Scourge, FB either, so why here? -> 10. inconsistency)You are so wrong /facepalmIts not a trade off its a slap in the face of mirage that get better evade as their main mechanic(well, at least mirage gets ambushes lul) while losing EVADE but DRD GAIN 1 MORE.DRD evades moving you side/back/forward(except the dodge that meant to travel more distance AND remove movement impairing conditions ) the same range with additional effects on it and unremovable buffs after an evade. Thats like if you would say STR warrior RECKLESS IMPACT is somehow is a trade off because its start to do tons of unblockable damage in the end.Daredevil - lost 600 range on steal, what he have got for it->lower cd on steal and its unblockable now which allows it to cancel channeled blocks, +1 evade, BETTER EVADES (they are no different from normal evades in terms of range/functionality but do extra stuff during/after evade).Posted only because you said that poor DRD getting a "TRADE OFF" by getting freaking better evades, you are out of your mind.

Have you event read the whole text? lol

@"Senqu.8054" said:Well, I did. All this nonsense with trade offs givin me a headache. Shouldnt had happened ever and properly balanced elite spec traitline instead, not nerfing CORE (ironically everyone were happy with mesmer nerfs but then wasnt happy when thier core got touched) traitlines to bring certain elite spec down and then suddenly bombard them with "TRADE OFFS" when they are alrdy not in the good shape.What is really DUMB when they continously nerf something sooooooooo many times (and not the issue but around it) so it considered "fine" but then they are like "TRADE OFF!" and this spec is just gone forever.The best examples - druid, chrono, possibly sourbeast and mirage.

@Odik.4587 said:@"bravan.3876"

Daredevil also get a second trade off during it already lost a basic mechanic in terms of normal dodges (that the replacing elite skills are much stronger than the core ones we don't care for on other elites like Scourge, FB either, so why here? -> 10. inconsistency)You are so wrong /facepalmIts not a trade off its a slap in the face of mirage that get better evade as their main mechanic(well, at least mirage gets ambushes lul) while losing EVADE but DRD GAIN 1 MORE.DRD evades moving you side/back/forward(except the dodge that meant to travel more distance AND remove movement impairing conditions ) the same range with additional effects on it and unremovable buffs after an evade. Thats like if you would say STR warrior RECKLESS IMPACT is somehow is a trade off because its start to do tons of unblockable damage in the end.Daredevil - lost 600 range on steal, what he have got for it->lower cd on steal and its unblockable now which allows it to cancel channeled blocks, +1 evade, BETTER EVADES (they are no different from normal evades in terms of range/functionality but do extra stuff during/after evade).Posted only because you said that poor DRD getting a "TRADE OFF" by getting freaking better evades, you are out of your mind.

No one is saying that the treatment from Daredevil compared to Mirage is fair. I am just saying that Anets double trade off on Daredevil from their own PoV (not mine) is inconsistent, that it still is a way less unfair treatment than what they do with Mirage (what is not even meant as trade off rofl) has nothing to do with the inconistency you already find when looking at it from Anets PoV and for what trade offs are only meant in their view (as i understand it). I analysed it from Anets PoV not mine, you seems not to understand. And as described their trade off agenda seems not to care for fair or logical balance in the first place. It only looks for removing core mechanics in exchange for elite mechanic while it doesn't matter if the replacing mechanics are better or worse than core ones or better or worse compared to other classes. Daredevil lost normal dodges as core mechanic for that in Anets own logic it should count as trade off (because that is how they act on other classes like Scourge or FB too).Try more to look at the big picture than just being upset about unfair Mesmer treatment. In the end the big picture proves you right too, you just have to think around a few more corners to get there.

I guess Anet thinks they can rebalance with normal balance moves later if an elite get overnerfd by trade off (or a normal nerf that just act like a trade off by removing core mechanics as we have on Mirage), while not seeing that they sometimes even remove fundamental core mechanics an elite needs to work or nerf in ways completely contradicting to the elite mechanic itself, what does not make sense in the first place and often at least removes skill ceiling/ tactical deepness/ mechanical complexety and make specs unfun and clunky by touching basic (core or elite) mechanics. Means all compensating buffs they might do in later patches at other place of the elite or the class as a whole will just lower the skill cap even more and will not help vs the artificial produced clunkyness of specs by acting versus their underlying core and elite mechanics in the first step. Follow up buffs in other places will not make up for previous nerfs at wrong places in terms of how fun and unclunky something is to play and in terms of lowered skill ceiling/ tactical deepness and mechanical complexity.

Here is a perfect example for that:I found a funny (actually more sad) suggestion somewhere on how to rebalance/ buff Mirage later if it turns out that the one dodge change is too hard of an overnerf. I cannot remember where i read/saw it, i watched too many videos and read too many posts about the upcoming patch to remember where i noticed what. But it got suggested, that they could introduce a new trait in Mirage line that gives Mirage endurance back when applying confusion. I thought i didn't get that right first. Sometimes i ask myself if ppl even do the effort to enable their brains before starting to tinker with balance or if the problem only is, that the Mesmer mechanics are too complicated/ complex and too high IQ for most ppl to understand. But at least use basic logic then or not?I mean you kill the whole spec first with all build diversity and inlcuding all high skill ceiling and active Powermirage builds (which do not cause any balance problem at all currently) with the one dodge change for the sake of balancing Condimirage and then the only problematic op build is the only one you will later compensate by a "get more dodges for applying condis" trait? Seriously? Means in the end Condimirage will be the only playstyle gets compensated for previous nerfs (while still being clunky) not even addressing the passive condi playstyle and for that will maybe be viable again, while being even more passive and dodge spammy because with only one dodge and higher endurance gain or -reggen you force the player to just spam dodges on cd (means as soon as the one endurance bar is full) while on the other side they will not have the ability to use dodge pure offensive for active and well timed tactical outplays (because in 90% of all cases you have no dodge rdy when a well timed moment for an pure offensive and tactical outplay dodge will be up). Well done, you just produced an even more braindead, passive and dodge spammy Condimirage than we currently have while you killed all already way more active and high skill ceiling power builds and with that all build diversity for Mirage for nothing. Condimirage will be meta again because the only playstyle that got compensated for previous nerfs but now with lower skill ceiling, less tactical deepness, less mechanical complexity but more clunky and still the same op balance problem with passive and spammy playstyle. If you add a trait will give more endurance for either confusion or vuln (so that Powermirage builds gets compensated too) you then have the same problem with Powermirage: more clunky more dodgespammy, less active. GG you created the same status we have now just on a higher clunky lvl with more passive, more dodgespammy and more noobfriedly and more toxic/ annoying playstyle but you now turned even Powermirage into that.

That is the big big point: you can't compensate deleted skill ceiling/ tactical deepness/ mechanical complexity with later buffs on other places. You might bring elites back into meta when overnerfed yes, but with even easier and more toxic and passive playstyle.

@viquing.8254 said:About chrono, like I wrote on mesmer forum, they can leave IP removed on chrono but if they do this, they have to double clones HP.(While also end the condi damage from clones to fix the balance issue it create in every mesmer spec.)Mean it will provide differents types of gameplay than core while having clone ressources not totally gut so that the spec can be played.Btw good analysis.

No they cannot leave IP. It is fundamental for shatterplaystyle no matter what Mesmer spec. Shattermesmer is build up on doing combos with instant shatters. That is where a lot of skill ceiling comes from. Everyone can spam clone generating weapon and utiltiy skills and press a shatter. Fast paced combo playstyle is what makes Shattermes hard to play. No higher hp pool on clones for even less stuff a Mesmer player needs to care for will compensate for the loss in skill ceiling. You try to create an old phantasm playstyle just with clones instead. Phantasm playstyle got removed for good reasons, for the same reasons it is good that neither minion master Necro nor old turret Engi is viable/ available anymore.

Anyway ty for reading! :+1:

Ok, I will repeat myself, again.

I am just saying that Anets double trade off on Daredevil from their own PoV (not mine) is inconsistentThey didnt give DRD any trade off but a better evasion skill on their choice and +1 evade on top.Their didnt give up normal dodge, its still normal dodge but with additional effects(and different animation) on it, they are still locked in the direction they evade, it cost them normal 50 endurance and travel the same distance (unless special dodge for it). THAT is not a trade off, otherwise you would be calling warriors reckless impact a new elite worth level mechanic because it does additional unblockable damage and gives him might (just lacking new animation, LMAO). They overbuffed normal evade and gave an extra evade.Trade off that DRD recieved was -600 range, -cooldown reduction, + unblockable into addition to super evades,+1 evade and ALL MINOR TRAITS IT GETS.Yes, minor traits are very important, some classes get super minors to help with definition of what they want it to be. Some do not because they think they achieved their goal by giving it super strong mechanic. In my view at least. For an example - they want daredevil to be a brawler, they give him insane buffs and merge major traits they have to pick into minors to boost their offensive capabilities and defensive capabilities to achieve its goal on top of alrdy existing better evades and shorter range steal to be melee-centred spec. Spellbreaker get his minors to help him with his theme to remove boons (on cc) and dagger that also remove boons (and utilities blablabla) and burst reset on succcessful F2. Mirage or chrono got minor grandmaster filler traits - either unnecessary or something that should have been baseline (MC movespeed) because they alrdy have strong mechanics - super evade and split. Again, thats how I think it was done ? No idea.And I didnt read your whole post, only this crp about daredevil btw :)And as described their trade off agenda seems not to care for fair or logical balance in the first placeThats true. They removed every single phantasm trait to make mesmer shatter-centric entirely and take away the fundamental SELF-SHATTER that allows mesmer to breathe. Phenomenal trade off. I would love to see thieves reaction if they had to steal from 100 range literally hugging your enemy and trying to search his pockets :joy:I guess Anet thinks they can rebalance with normal balance moves later if an elite get overnerfd by trade offYes indeed. I understand that well and you think I'm not. kek. Just like you think I dont understand their PoV of trade-offs. I understand how they give trade offs but why some classes get immesureable more than what they lose and get away with it and how its fair, thats another question, they dont understand themselves, I'm sure of it.A bunch of text you said below is a an eternal struggle of all mesmers in lenght of 8 years. Thats alow I would consider a trade off.Look : To bring in line chrono, core is nerfed, I give them some credit here, they nerfed chrono a bit too at that time when they had sane workers.Then what happens CP is too strong, phantasms are out of hand ! Phantasms, all of them get hit by a truck. Few times even. CP saved for PVE users. To make chrono shine you had to keep perma alacrity, bunker could maintain highest alacrity uptime and thus was way more effective than power build that briefely got it from random shatters. Its out of hand and CS with BD is too strong - BD got nurfs. CS left alone, surprisingly (got cd increases a bit?)Mirage - 1s evade is too long. Vigor trait that every class has 5/10 now exclusively for mirage is 3/10, thank you anet, you did help core and chrono to gain some vigor, I guess? /smirror allows to reflect and counterattack while evading at the same time - destroyed for all specs core/chrono/mirage,thanks I guess? /sBlurred frenzy was left alone for ~5 years but now its broken - almost 50% evasion frames removed, still hit 8 times to get destroyed in retal, thank you, core and chrono appreciate this change ! /sStaff recent nerfs, scepter nerfs. What actually happened to other builds that got hurt in the process? Well, power builds didnt make it , except for current PU core that can shot you because auto-deathsaveprocs are gone :)