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STORY MODE FOR RAIDS

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  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2020

    A lot of it is on the wiki, I feel that the one that lacks the most story is wing 1 with Sabetha. She is the leader of the bandits that were kidnapping magically infused humans across Kryta, and possibly all of the ones that remain in Kryta since the guild wars ended. One could assume the reward the White Mantle gave in return is payment with food and money for the bandits to support themselves, and possibly exoneration with Minister Caudecus having a say on who gets free from prison in Divinity's Reach. The Vale Guardian, who also lacks a story to it, could also be a manifestation of all the aspects used to revive Lazarus (who turned out to be Balthazar in Disguise) and was placed where he is in order to prevent intruders from entering the Spirit Vale.

    So the order is the bandits deliver magically attuned humans to the White Mantle, the Mantle delivers the prisoners to the Bloodstone Shard, the Bloodstone Shard powers the batteries (you get one in the legendary armor collection) keeping the magic Door of Komalie sealed, the bodies are then disposed of in the spirit vale, and the souls of the bodies eventually manifest into Gorseval a demon formed much in the way Deimos was for Saul D'Alessio. I want to say more but I'd end up spoiling how everything in Living Story Season 3 connects together. I'm incredibly disappointed that I didn't try raiding when Season 3 was up and coming, I kept playing through the Season 3 thinking none of what's happening actually connects together and once I did raid and wiki'd the bosses in them I was shocked at how we missed that.

    The Bloodstone wasn't used to revive Lazarus though, to disappear, Lazarus disappeared into 5 aspects; after Saul D'Alessio died, the Eye of Janthir, which was an artifact used by the Mantle to identify the magically potent for the bandits to capture, sought these aspects and collect them together, but the aspects were collected by the Shining Blade as they were tracking the Eye's movements. The last one was held within a book in Orr In Abbadon's Reliquary that (I believe) Balthazar once placed in there. Here are the 5 aspects:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aspect_of_Lazarus_(bundle).

    I don't even remember what exactly happened season 3 because I wasn't considering the story important or connecting to anything that happened in each previous episode, I think I might replay it. Season 3 was a huge step up. Season 4 doesn't even connect with Zommoros or Qadim. :/ Joko is about as cliche as Ultron's punchlines.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Ironically, that "you could do that, if you only tried" is something the whole raid community kept telling to those very same players for the last few years. And now, when those players start agreeing, it is suddenly wrong.

    Not sure what you are talking about.

    Oh, really?
    This:

    @Aizza.4950 said:
    Here we go again. Every month some casual player comes storming in demanding easy mode raids. Gw2 raids aren’t even that hard. You can grab a build off Snowcrows, watch a video of the fight, practice your rotation for 30 minutes and go roll through every boss except wing 5 most likely.

    is what i was referring to.

    The above is being repeated over and over again, like a mantra. But when some casual player starts believing it and bringing it up, it suddenly somehow stops being true and causes some people to erupt in protest, even when they didn't say anything when the very same argument was brought from the raiders' side.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Ironically, that "you could do that, if you only tried" is something the whole raid community kept telling to those very same players for the last few years. And now, when those players start agreeing, it is suddenly wrong.

    Not sure what you are talking about.

    I think you misunderstood my point, or you are accidentally twisting my words.

    Saying something is doable but requires practice and work, is not the same as stating something is easy, but is not being done because players can't be bothered.

    I can't speak for any one but myself, but from what I have seen over the years, the main argument was always:
    Raids are doable for many players IF said players choose to invest a minimum amount of work and effort.

    That is not the same as saying:
    Raids are easy and any one can do them right now (but choose not to). Which has been appearing lately as argument, and ironically the voices demanding easy mode raids for training purposes have gone strangely silent. I guess all those players moved on, or realized that easy mode content does little to prepare players for challenging content UNLESS said players actually invest in becoming better at the game. Again something many of us warned and claimed in the past.

    Which also coincides with the second half of the replay you quoted, but left out:

    @Aizza.4950 said:
    Put some effort towards learning your classes and improving yourself. Not everything should be handed to people for little effort. Raids are supposed to be harder and the rewards belong in the hands of players who put forth the time to beating raids.

    If players interested in clearing raids, their story, or w/e actually did that, raids would not be hard to them, because they are objectively not hard. They are hard to players who lack this approach or minimum understanding of the game.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Ironically, that "you could do that, if you only tried" is something the whole raid community kept telling to those very same players for the last few years. And now, when those players start agreeing, it is suddenly wrong.

    Not sure what you are talking about.

    I think you misunderstood my point, or you are accidentally twisting my words.

    Saying something is doable but requires practice and work, is not the same as stating something is easy, but is not being done because players can't be bothered.

    I can't speak for any one but myself, but from what I have seen over the years, the main argument was always:
    Raids are doable for many players IF said players choose to invest a minimum amount of work and effort.

    That is not the same as saying:
    Raids are easy and any one can do them right now (but choose not to). Which has been appearing lately as argument, and ironically the voices demanding easy mode raids for training purposes have gone strangely silent. I guess all those players moved on, or realized that easy mode content does little to prepare players for challenging content UNLESS said players actually invest in becoming better at the game. Again something many of us warned and claimed in the past.

    I think that the "right now" part is the one you applied to most of those arguments completely on your own. I have always read those as "Raids are easy and i could easily do them if i wanted to, but i can't be bothered to watch that vid, adjust my build, and spend those 30 mins on the golem, and then spend a ton of time filtering other players for the team".
    Which is effectively no different from the argument Aizza brought up, just taken from the other side.
    Yes, i know that it would almost certainly take way more than those 30 mins of training to "go roll through every boss except wing 5". But that applies equally to all, and yet somehow i have never seen any raider point that out when this comes from their side of the argument.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Ironically, that "you could do that, if you only tried" is something the whole raid community kept telling to those very same players for the last few years. And now, when those players start agreeing, it is suddenly wrong.

    Not sure what you are talking about.

    I think you misunderstood my point, or you are accidentally twisting my words.

    Saying something is doable but requires practice and work, is not the same as stating something is easy, but is not being done because players can't be bothered.

    I can't speak for any one but myself, but from what I have seen over the years, the main argument was always:
    Raids are doable for many players IF said players choose to invest a minimum amount of work and effort.

    That is not the same as saying:
    Raids are easy and any one can do them right now (but choose not to). Which has been appearing lately as argument, and ironically the voices demanding easy mode raids for training purposes have gone strangely silent. I guess all those players moved on, or realized that easy mode content does little to prepare players for challenging content UNLESS said players actually invest in becoming better at the game. Again something many of us warned and claimed in the past.

    I think that the "right now" part is the one you applied to most of those arguments completely on your own. I have always read those as "Raids are easy and i could easily do them if i wanted to, but i can't be bothered to watch that vid, adjust my build, and spend those 30 mins on the golem, and then spend a ton of time filtering other players for the team".
    Which is effectively no different from the argument Aizza brought up, just taken from the other side.
    Yes, i know that it would almost certainly take way more than those 30 mins of training to "go roll through every boss except wing 5". But that applies equally to all, and yet somehow i have never seen any raider point that out when this comes from their side of the argument.

    Do you want me to go through the forum posts 1-2 months ago which even used articles to make claims that most players supposedly choose not to raid over them lacking the ability? Really?

    Here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97716/including-strike-mission-achievements-as-a-required-part-of-the-zone-meta/p1

    EDIT: I even looked up the reference made by Vayne.8563 starting on page 4:
    "If people aren’t raiding in an MMO, it’s not because it’s too hard"
    - https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/f0d4ki/if_people_arent_raiding_in_an_mmo_its_not_because/
    which references an article on massivelyop found here:
    https://massivelyop.com/2020/02/06/vague-patch-notes-if-people-arent-raiding-in-an-mmo-its-not-because-its-too-hard/

    You will find the narrative there suddenly changed from:
    "We need easy mode raids to practice for normal raids."

    to:

    "Everyone can raid, they are easy, most of us simply choose not to."

    It's not the raid crowd that has changed its tune on this issue (from what I can tell, I can't speak for all and to be honest, most raiders I know have either quit or have given up on this games raid content and simply view it as some nice distraction until they jump ship).

    It's the suddenly very quiet easy mode raid crowd which has either disappeared or been pleased with the implementation of strikes. Now personally, I don't care what excuse players use to not participate in content, every one can justify themselves how ever they want. It does make for poor debate though when one side is, let's call it "slippery", in which arguments it applies when and how.

    All I've said is:
    Raids are objectively not hard. There are ample resources and helping hands which support new players who wish to start to raid. Tha actual numeric values which are needed to succeed at raids are a tiny fraction of what classes are possible and able to achieve. The vast majority of this player base is NOT ready to enter raids and perform to even the minimum standard required at the current point in time. That does not mean raids are hard, it means just a lot of players are terrible at this game (for what ever reasons might have caused this situation, maybe not even to the players fault). I was against easy mode raids in the past, and am still now, but that does not matter since raids are likely off the table entirely.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2020

    Some just got tired discussing the same thing over and over again with the same people. It's a fruitless endeavor.

    Like the massively column states, difficulty isn't the reason I'm not raiding, I'm just not raiding because I can't be bothered with waiting to play content. I'd rather just play content. If I want to play actually hard content, I'll just go and play Dark Souls or something similiar, where I don't have to wait / go through the hassle of creating a well-performing group to tackle the content.

    Creating squads and groups with friends in the Open World is easy and fun, and I can take anyone along with me if I enjoy their company. I don't have to care about if they are performing well. That's why I always used to enjoy Guild Missions, I didn't have to kick people because they weren't performing well and could just take them along for the ride.

    It's not the challenge of the raids, it is everything that surrounds them that turns me off. I'm just not interested in 10man instanced content in a MMORPG anymore, since the "massively" part is missing for me. I actively choose not to raid.

    Same thing for strikes, I've got my ceremonial garb, so I've got no reason to ever do WoJ again. I was just in there for the reward, not because it was fun.

    Edit: I'm still for story mode raids / LFR type raids like in WoW or the Forging Steel "Group mission", like Arenanet calls it. Forging Steel is pretty much a story mode raid.
    I'd rather have it be part of the OW though, with a massive amount of players. The persistent world is a big part of why I play MMORPGS.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You will find the narrative there suddenly changed from:
    "We need easy mode raids to practice for normal raids."

    to:

    "Everyone can raid, they are easy, most of us simply choose not to."

    That's exactly the argument Raiders were using over and over again for the last few years - "raids are easy, all you need to do is put some effort into it. If you can't do them, it's only because you don't want to".

    It's not the raid crowd that has changed its tune on this issue (from what I can tell, I can't speak for all and to be honest, most raiders I know have either quit or have given up on this games raid content and simply view it as some nice distraction until they jump ship).

    Agreed, the raiders were quite consistent on that one. I never said they weren't. The thing i am pointing out is that the very same argument raiders kept using for years, that was seemingly completely fine when raiders were using it, now suddenly becomes somehow wrong when it's utilized by casual players. And only when it's being utilized by casual players (as your lack of reaction to the post i have quoted before shows).

    Why are you suddenly calling out people for using it now, but felt no need to do it before (and even used it yourself)? Is it only because it was suddenly used to support the side of the argument you don't agree with? Because it sure looks like this.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You will find the narrative there suddenly changed from:
    "We need easy mode raids to practice for normal raids."

    to:

    "Everyone can raid, they are easy, most of us simply choose not to."

    That's exactly the argument Raiders were using over and over again for the last few years - "raids are easy, all you need to do is put some effort into it. If you can't do them, it's only because you don't want to".

    It's not the raid crowd that has changed its tune on this issue (from what I can tell, I can't speak for all and to be honest, most raiders I know have either quit or have given up on this games raid content and simply view it as some nice distraction until they jump ship).

    Agreed, the raiders were quite consistent on that one. I never said they weren't. The thing i am pointing out is that the very same argument raiders kept using for years, that was seemingly completely fine when raiders were using it, now suddenly becomes somehow wrong when it's utilized by casual players. And only when it's being utilized by casual players (as your lack of reaction to the post i have quoted before shows).

    Why are you suddenly calling out people for using it now, but felt no need to do it before (and even used it yourself)? Is it only because it was suddenly used to support the side of the argument you don't agree with? Because it sure looks like this.

    The arguments made are not the same. I've tried to explain the difference. You are either not interested in seeing it, or trolling.

    The argument was never:
    Raids are easy without getting better at the game or investing time in getting better. Never at any point in time.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The arguments made are not the same. I've tried to explain the difference. You are either not interested in seeing it, or trolling.

    But they are exactly the same. They are differing only because you have changed the "casual side" version into something it was not.

    The argument was never:
    Raids are easy without getting better at the game or investing time in getting better. Never at any point in time.

    Neither was the opposing argument (the one you kept complaining about) "I could easily do raids without investing any time in learning them". It was always "I could easily do raids, but i can't be bothered to invest time in learning them". Which is (as i have already said) the very same argument raiders keep using, just phrased slightly differently.

    Edit: to make it more clear:
    Raiders say: "Raids are easy, you could do them, you only need to invest time in learning them".
    Casuals say "Raids are not that hard, i could easily do them, but i can't be bothered to invest time in learning them".

    Those two things are basically the same argument, just shown from two different sides.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The arguments made are not the same. I've tried to explain the difference. You are either not interested in seeing it, or trolling.

    But they are exactly the same. They are differing only because you have changed the "casual side" version into something it was not.

    The argument was never:
    Raids are easy without getting better at the game or investing time in getting better. Never at any point in time.

    Neither was the opposing argument (the one you kept complaining about) "I could easily do raids without investing any time in learning them". It was always "I could easily do raids, but i can't be bothered to invest time in learning them". Which is (as i have already said) the very same argument raiders keep using, just phrased slightly differently.

    Edit: to make it more clear:
    Raiders say: "Raids are easy, you could do them, you only need to invest time in learning them".
    Casuals say "Raids are not that hard, i could easily do them, but i can't be bothered to invest time in learning them".

    Those two things are basically the same argument, just shown from two different sides.

    Except you changed the second argument. That is not what was said, nor what I said, nor what you even quoted me saying. Please read again.

    The argument became:
    "Everyone can raid, they are easy, most of us simply choose not to."

    As in, most players are already good enough but simply choose not to raid. Which is completely false and started to gain traction because players were facing difficulties in strike missions, or achievements related to strike missions which now created a gate for very weak players in getting the meta reward.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I just stopped caring about it. Been playing lots of strikes and farming them. From my perspective strikes appears to be a lot more popular. Can’t conclude this is actually the case or not, but personally, I’ve now done more strikes then I ever did raids.

    Eventually, I was going to force myself to do raids to get the raid ring, but I but don’t even need to do that, now that I can make two Legendary rings in WvW.

  • HotDelirium.7984HotDelirium.7984 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aizza.4950 said:
    Here we go again. Every month some casual player comes storming in demanding easy mode raids. Gw2 raids aren’t even that hard. You can grab a build off Snowcrows, watch a video of the fight, practice your rotation for 30 minutes and go roll through every boss except wing 5 most likely.

    Put some effort towards learning your classes and improving yourself. Not everything should be handed to people for little effort. Raids are supposed to be harder and the rewards belong in the hands of players who put forth the time to beating raids.

    I think the general point is important story elements (the backbone for GW2) should not be locked behind the intense commitment of raids. I think ATM they have it backward with the current Strike Missions vs Raids. The Strikes should be what the raid bosses are and each raid itself could have been instead a LW episode. My rationale is the stories within each raid are actually pretty significant and non-raiders are missing what I gather is the equivalent of the loss of an episode per raid. The inner workings of the white mantle and those they killed, the inner workings of the Mystic Forge, the true nature of Djinn, and the new developments in the underworld are not plot points to shrug off.

    The second we say "sTorYmOdE RaiDs" all raiders bristle up because they think we want to force all content to be super easy and boring and that assumption is false. I want hard/challenging content for you if that's what YOU want. What we actually mean is the equivalent of what fractals do (the 4 tiers) when it came to these raids.

    I honestly have no idea why they jumped from fractals to raids with a completely different model when this game has had this air and energy for "casual gaming."

    SO to summarize IMO:
    -Raids should be what fractals are in their 4 leveled difficulty (tier 1 being the equivalent to a storymode)
    -Strikes should be what raids are in their difficulty and they're easy of access. Quick difficult content, hardly any story to trudge through. Win-Win.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:

    @Aizza.4950 said:
    Here we go again. Every month some casual player comes storming in demanding easy mode raids. Gw2 raids aren’t even that hard. You can grab a build off Snowcrows, watch a video of the fight, practice your rotation for 30 minutes and go roll through every boss except wing 5 most likely.

    Put some effort towards learning your classes and improving yourself. Not everything should be handed to people for little effort. Raids are supposed to be harder and the rewards belong in the hands of players who put forth the time to beating raids.

    I think the general point is important story elements (the backbone for GW2) should not be locked behind the intense commitment of raids. I think ATM they have it backward with the current Strike Missions vs Raids. The Strikes should be what the raid bosses are and each raid itself could have been instead a LW episode. My rationale is the stories within each raid are actually pretty significant and non-raiders are missing what I gather is the equivalent of the loss of an episode per raid. The inner workings of the white mantle and those they killed, the inner workings of the Mystic Forge, the true nature of Djinn, and the new developments in the underworld are not plot points to shrug off.

    The second we say "sTorYmOdE RaiDs" all raiders bristle up because they think we want to force all content to be super easy and boring and that assumption is false. I want hard/challenging content for you if that's what YOU want. What we actually mean is the equivalent of what fractals do (the 4 tiers) when it came to these raids.

    I honestly have no idea why they jumped from fractals to raids with a completely different model when this game has had this air and energy for "casual gaming."

    SO to summarize IMO:
    -Raids should be what fractals are in their 4 leveled difficulty (tier 1 being the equivalent to a storymode)
    -Strikes should be what raids are in their difficulty and they're easy of access. Quick difficult content, hardly any story to trudge through. Win-Win.

    I agree with this post in regards to the raids to strike mission switcheroo. The Whisper of Jormag strike mission has nothing to do with the story for example. The same for the bears, bone skinner and fraenir. If Raiders had a difficult boss battle per living world episode, it would at least provide consistent content to hopefully satisfy that itch.

  • HotDelirium.7984HotDelirium.7984 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 15, 2020

    I agree with this post in regards to the raids to strike mission switcheroo. The Whisper of Jormag strike mission has nothing to do with the story for example. The same for the bears, bone skinner, and fraenir. If Raiders had a difficult boss battle per living world episode, it would at least provide consistent content to hopefully satisfy that itch.

    In game theory- smart, accessible, and sometimes custimized content is the most desired and most fun. Options and choice are the leading power dynamic so its mind-boggling when it appears they are making amateurish mistakes in their game design model and overall vision. The number one reason people are unhappy at work while their job performance plummets is because- MANAGEMENT. Just saying...

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:

    @Aizza.4950 said:
    Here we go again. Every month some casual player comes storming in demanding easy mode raids. Gw2 raids aren’t even that hard. You can grab a build off Snowcrows, watch a video of the fight, practice your rotation for 30 minutes and go roll through every boss except wing 5 most likely.

    Put some effort towards learning your classes and improving yourself. Not everything should be handed to people for little effort. Raids are supposed to be harder and the rewards belong in the hands of players who put forth the time to beating raids.

    I think the general point is important story elements (the backbone for GW2) should not be locked behind the intense commitment of raids. I think ATM they have it backward with the current Strike Missions vs Raids. The Strikes should be what the raid bosses are and each raid itself could have been instead a LW episode. My rationale is the stories within each raid are actually pretty significant and non-raiders are missing what I gather is the equivalent of the loss of an episode per raid. The inner workings of the white mantle and those they killed, the inner workings of the Mystic Forge, the true nature of Djinn, and the new developments in the underworld are not plot points to shrug off.

    The second we say "sTorYmOdE RaiDs" all raiders bristle up because they think we want to force all content to be super easy and boring and that assumption is false. I want hard/challenging content for you if that's what YOU want. What we actually mean is the equivalent of what fractals do (the 4 tiers) when it came to these raids.

    I honestly have no idea why they jumped from fractals to raids with a completely different model when this game has had this air and energy for "casual gaming."

    SO to summarize IMO:
    -Raids should be what fractals are in their 4 leveled difficulty (tier 1 being the equivalent to a storymode)
    -Strikes should be what raids are in their difficulty and they're easy of access. Quick difficult content, hardly any story to trudge through. Win-Win.

    Theres some nuance you're missing here. Raiders are fine with easy mode raids with the following stipulations:

    1. It doesnt grant LI to keep a legendary armor "mostly" skill gated. Raid sellers are an option to bypass this but most people dont have the gold to pay for 150 boss kills hence "mostly".
    2. The development of story/training mode raids doesnt take away resources from the development of real raids. Ie. Living world developers should develop ez raids not the once existing raid team.

    These 2 points are what both sides cant see eye to eye on.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:

    @Aizza.4950 said:
    Here we go again. Every month some casual player comes storming in demanding easy mode raids. Gw2 raids aren’t even that hard. You can grab a build off Snowcrows, watch a video of the fight, practice your rotation for 30 minutes and go roll through every boss except wing 5 most likely.

    Put some effort towards learning your classes and improving yourself. Not everything should be handed to people for little effort. Raids are supposed to be harder and the rewards belong in the hands of players who put forth the time to beating raids.

    I think the general point is important story elements (the backbone for GW2) should not be locked behind the intense commitment of raids. I think ATM they have it backward with the current Strike Missions vs Raids. The Strikes should be what the raid bosses are and each raid itself could have been instead a LW episode. My rationale is the stories within each raid are actually pretty significant and non-raiders are missing what I gather is the equivalent of the loss of an episode per raid. The inner workings of the white mantle and those they killed, the inner workings of the Mystic Forge, the true nature of Djinn, and the new developments in the underworld are not plot points to shrug off.

    The second we say "sTorYmOdE RaiDs" all raiders bristle up because they think we want to force all content to be super easy and boring and that assumption is false. I want hard/challenging content for you if that's what YOU want. What we actually mean is the equivalent of what fractals do (the 4 tiers) when it came to these raids.

    I honestly have no idea why they jumped from fractals to raids with a completely different model when this game has had this air and energy for "casual gaming."

    SO to summarize IMO:
    -Raids should be what fractals are in their 4 leveled difficulty (tier 1 being the equivalent to a storymode)
    -Strikes should be what raids are in their difficulty and they're easy of access. Quick difficult content, hardly any story to trudge through. Win-Win.

    Theres some nuance you're missing here. Raiders are fine with easy mode raids with the following stipulations:

    1. It doesnt grant LI to keep a legendary armor "mostly" skill gated. Raid sellers are an option to bypass this but most people dont have the gold to pay for 150 boss kills hence "mostly".
    2. The development of story/training mode raids doesnt take away resources from the development of real raids. Ie. Living world developers should develop ez raids not the once existing raid team.

    These 2 points are what both sides cant see eye to eye on.

    For number 2, when the Icebrood saga is finished the team or people who were developing SM could in theory go back and fiddle with an easy mode if they so choose.

    I’m curious on how some of these bosses would stand up to opening the raid squad to 20 like an open world boss.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:

    @Aizza.4950 said:
    Here we go again. Every month some casual player comes storming in demanding easy mode raids. Gw2 raids aren’t even that hard. You can grab a build off Snowcrows, watch a video of the fight, practice your rotation for 30 minutes and go roll through every boss except wing 5 most likely.

    Put some effort towards learning your classes and improving yourself. Not everything should be handed to people for little effort. Raids are supposed to be harder and the rewards belong in the hands of players who put forth the time to beating raids.

    I think the general point is important story elements (the backbone for GW2) should not be locked behind the intense commitment of raids. I think ATM they have it backward with the current Strike Missions vs Raids. The Strikes should be what the raid bosses are and each raid itself could have been instead a LW episode. My rationale is the stories within each raid are actually pretty significant and non-raiders are missing what I gather is the equivalent of the loss of an episode per raid. The inner workings of the white mantle and those they killed, the inner workings of the Mystic Forge, the true nature of Djinn, and the new developments in the underworld are not plot points to shrug off.

    The second we say "sTorYmOdE RaiDs" all raiders bristle up because they think we want to force all content to be super easy and boring and that assumption is false. I want hard/challenging content for you if that's what YOU want. What we actually mean is the equivalent of what fractals do (the 4 tiers) when it came to these raids.

    I honestly have no idea why they jumped from fractals to raids with a completely different model when this game has had this air and energy for "casual gaming."

    SO to summarize IMO:
    -Raids should be what fractals are in their 4 leveled difficulty (tier 1 being the equivalent to a storymode)
    -Strikes should be what raids are in their difficulty and they're easy of access. Quick difficult content, hardly any story to trudge through. Win-Win.

    Theres some nuance you're missing here. Raiders are fine with easy mode raids with the following stipulations:

    1. It doesnt grant LI to keep a legendary armor "mostly" skill gated. Raid sellers are an option to bypass this but most people dont have the gold to pay for 150 boss kills hence "mostly".
    2. The development of story/training mode raids doesnt take away resources from the development of real raids. Ie. Living world developers should develop ez raids not the once existing raid team.

    These 2 points are what both sides cant see eye to eye on.

    For number 2, when the Icebrood saga is finished the team or people who were developing SM could in theory go back and fiddle with an easy mode if they so choose.

    I’m curious on how some of these bosses would stand up to opening the raid squad to 20 like an open world boss.

    You do know that the ones doing SM now are most likely the ones who developed raids in the past right?

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:

    @Aizza.4950 said:
    Here we go again. Every month some casual player comes storming in demanding easy mode raids. Gw2 raids aren’t even that hard. You can grab a build off Snowcrows, watch a video of the fight, practice your rotation for 30 minutes and go roll through every boss except wing 5 most likely.

    Put some effort towards learning your classes and improving yourself. Not everything should be handed to people for little effort. Raids are supposed to be harder and the rewards belong in the hands of players who put forth the time to beating raids.

    I think the general point is important story elements (the backbone for GW2) should not be locked behind the intense commitment of raids. I think ATM they have it backward with the current Strike Missions vs Raids. The Strikes should be what the raid bosses are and each raid itself could have been instead a LW episode. My rationale is the stories within each raid are actually pretty significant and non-raiders are missing what I gather is the equivalent of the loss of an episode per raid. The inner workings of the white mantle and those they killed, the inner workings of the Mystic Forge, the true nature of Djinn, and the new developments in the underworld are not plot points to shrug off.

    The second we say "sTorYmOdE RaiDs" all raiders bristle up because they think we want to force all content to be super easy and boring and that assumption is false. I want hard/challenging content for you if that's what YOU want. What we actually mean is the equivalent of what fractals do (the 4 tiers) when it came to these raids.

    I honestly have no idea why they jumped from fractals to raids with a completely different model when this game has had this air and energy for "casual gaming."

    SO to summarize IMO:
    -Raids should be what fractals are in their 4 leveled difficulty (tier 1 being the equivalent to a storymode)
    -Strikes should be what raids are in their difficulty and they're easy of access. Quick difficult content, hardly any story to trudge through. Win-Win.

    Theres some nuance you're missing here. Raiders are fine with easy mode raids with the following stipulations:

    1. It doesnt grant LI to keep a legendary armor "mostly" skill gated. Raid sellers are an option to bypass this but most people dont have the gold to pay for 150 boss kills hence "mostly".
    2. The development of story/training mode raids doesnt take away resources from the development of real raids. Ie. Living world developers should develop ez raids not the once existing raid team.

    These 2 points are what both sides cant see eye to eye on.

    For number 2, when the Icebrood saga is finished the team or people who were developing SM could in theory go back and fiddle with an easy mode if they so choose.

    I’m curious on how some of these bosses would stand up to opening the raid squad to 20 like an open world boss.

    You do know that the ones doing SM now are most likely the ones who developed raids in the past right?

    Wouldn’t know.