Mirage Trade-off Suggestion (PvP) — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Mirage Trade-off Suggestion (PvP)

Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited February 20, 2020 in Mesmer

Hey guys. As many of you know the trade off to Mirage in PvP is going to reducing the endurance by half.

I don't understand the logic behind this. Mirage- especially after the nerfs to Mirage cloak's duration doesn't evade more than any other class. In fact on demand evasion access is pretty low when compared to Ranger and Thief. Not to mention Warrior, the rise of Ele, and pre patch Engie (which I see more of a stabillity issue) were no slouches in on demand access to survivability.
-Mirage get's less vigor than a lot of them, and even vigor was heavily nerfed.
-Mirage has no flat endurance Regen skills.
-Mirage may have some decent evade windows, but that is not superior to on demand access that can void multiple skills.
-and although some survability is getting toned down, a lot of them maintain their evasion and mobility, while mesmer gets a 50% cut on the regular evade?

Mirage get's mirrors which, let's be honest is a terrible mechanic. We're supposed to be evasive and tricking people; but then we put down obvious markers where we need "walk to" to get our 3rd dodge if we were compared to DD.
-The only useful mirror in a pinch is on heal skill. Every other one is tied to a worthless and frankly under-performing utility skill, or is tied to a trait, that is tied to a 50 second cooldown.
^-Even with signet of illusions this is still less useful than easy access to on demand evades than other classes.
-This has major counter play since it tells you WHERE the real one has to go to avoid one of the many large cleaves or AoEs, on top of easily allowing players to see when a ambush is coming. That in itself is enough of a trade off.

Yes there is a problem with condi, and these things help to enhance it blah blah blah-might still over perform after nerfs; I get it.
However, the issue for the longest time with condi has always been from more passive application. I've always argued to "Put the condi application back on shatters, or other major cooldown gated skills; so it's not tied to auto attacks, and evade attacks in PvP."... But here we are: Removing an evade from a class that really doesn't evade as much as people think.

So counter Suggestion:

I saw a few people suggest to reduce the illusions from 3 to 2, which I could see being a thing. But that is such a restrictive pool on an already restrictive mechanic; I don't think it will go very well if we continue down that path.

So instead; What if we Revert the Phantasm/Clone Interaction- Specifically for Mirage only? (possibly only for PvP)
For those less familiar: Phantasms would spawn and be part of the 1/3 pool of active illusions; and would be omnipresent and persistent until killed.
In addition they did not become clones when killed, and counted as ammo for shatters. This was OG mesmer.

Ever since the changes to illusions many have found the current system vastly superior, and I really don't blame them.
But a change back to this is functional and familiar, and a reasonable drawback to mirage:
-Condi is now going to have to work around phantasms for optimal ambushes.
-It's similar to going 2 clone without hurting shatters and allowing for the ability to 3 clone ambush.
-Power gets a slight but inefficient bump to sustained damage.
-Opponents will have less to manage in a fight, and less visual noise to track after a target drop allowing for more counterplay.
-This also opens up trait design options for the lackluster slots for example: You could have one that goes Phantasms destroyed by damage become clones when they die (meaning if not shattered).

This may not be a trade-off everyone wants. Fact is; no one really wants trade offs, and I'd argue not every spec requires trade offs.
That said; if we have to have them the trade off should be fair, and should fit.
50% cut to endurance is neither. and a suggested 2 illusion cap is dysfunctional.

tl;dr: Just read counter suggestion.

Comments

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The new system isn't that much superior as it killed utility fantasms. Mean when is the last time you used defender and disenchanter.
    Your suggestion fit better for inspiration GM or chrono.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In some ways I kind of like Mirage having a single powerful dodge - maybe it should have been properly designed like this in the first place rather than trying to play whack-a-mole with the repeated nerf attempts over the last few years.

    But I don't like they way they go about implementing massive changes like this as with Chrono and doing absolutely nothing else to scaffold and make it work.

    I believe if they are going down this path then Mirage should have global 50 endurance - PvP/WvW/PvE - all modes, not split.

    BUT - there should be SIGNIFICANT changes to support this:

    • increase mirage cloak duration to 1s
    • increase nomad's endurance to 2s
    • reduce Jaunt cooldown back to 20s
    • possibly add a trait for direct endurance refill, eg gain X endurance when hitting a player with an ambush attack
    • re-evaluate Mirrors and skills/traits that spawn them to somehow make them more unpredictable and readily accessible.

    Make it so we have tools to regain endurance more readily, with a powerful longer dodge, but tradeoff being to limit chainability.

    My ears, how are you! | Staff | Greatsword

  • Something I was thinking about today is it seems like this means that Sigil of Energy will give PvP mirage half its bar on swap which will be half a dodge since a full bar will be 1 dodge. This would mean Mirage is double nerfed by this since its one of the classes that Sigil of Energy is basically always required as it is and if Mirage also loses the normal mechanic of gaining one dodge each weapon swap this totaly destroys any play style anyone has for mirage far as I can tell.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Moradorin.6217 said:
    Something I was thinking about today is it seems like this means that Sigil of Energy will give PvP mirage half its bar on swap which will be half a dodge since a full bar will be 1 dodge. This would mean Mirage is double nerfed by this since its one of the classes that Sigil of Energy is basically always required as it is and if Mirage also loses the normal mechanic of gaining one dodge each weapon swap this totaly destroys any play style anyone has for mirage far as I can tell.

    Given Sigil of Energy does not work that way for Daredevil (aka it does not give 1.5 bars of endurance), unless the developers implement this endurance bar change differently, this should not be an issue.

    The patch preview states:

    Mirage Cloak: This trait now reduces the mirage's endurance by 50 in competitive modes

    Which suggest not a cost increase to dodge, but a reduction of the evade bar from 100 to 50. The opposite of Daredevils, who go from 100 to 150.

    Now the SoE states:

    Gain 50% of your endurance when you swap to this weapon while in combat.

    Which when testing on Daredevil one realizes that this tool tip is actually incorrect. It should state that 50 endurance are restored (not 50%), since when using it on a Daredevil, which have 150 Endurance for 3 dodges, it only restores 1 dodge worth of energy (aka 50) and not 75.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A more reasonable drawback for Mirage is to just double down on the weakness of Mirage Cloak.

    Mirage Cloak's weakness is that unlike normal Dodge rolls, they don't cover ground.

    They should change it so that Mirage Cloak roots the Mirage.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • @Yasai.3549 said:
    A more reasonable drawback for Mirage is to just double down on the weakness of Mirage Cloak.

    Mirage Cloak's weakness is that unlike normal Dodge rolls, they don't cover ground.

    They should change it so that Mirage Cloak roots the Mirage.

    If they did this the Ambush skills would need to buffed back up and vigor durations or available dodges would need to go back up to make up for being stuck in mele range, ground target rings, etc. Also Im not so sure it would need to be no movement.

    Instead perhaps "less or no movement increase" while in mirage cloak making it slower to move out, while then extending it back to 1s duration and giving back the old vigor duration on Nomad's endurance, and maybe also boost ambush damage to make up for mirage then being stuck standing in harms way longer. Its not like mirage at present is still overpowered so the idea that it would need something in addition other than the same damage rebalance everyone else is getting seems totally arbitrary and made only to please QQs and not actually do anything for balance.

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    In some ways I kind of like Mirage having a single powerful dodge - maybe it should have been properly designed like this in the first place rather than trying to play whack-a-mole with the repeated nerf attempts over the last few years.

    But I don't like they way they go about implementing massive changes like this as with Chrono and doing absolutely nothing else to scaffold and make it work.

    I believe if they are going down this path then Mirage should have global 50 endurance - PvP/WvW/PvE - all modes, not split.

    BUT - there should be SIGNIFICANT changes to support this:

    • increase mirage cloak duration to 1s
    • increase nomad's endurance to 2s
    • reduce Jaunt cooldown back to 20s
    • possibly add a trait for direct endurance refill, eg gain X endurance when hitting a player with an ambush attack
    • re-evaluate Mirrors and skills/traits that spawn them to somehow make them more unpredictable and readily accessible.

    Make it so we have tools to regain endurance more readily, with a powerful longer dodge, but tradeoff being to limit chainability.

    I agree that would be neat and kinda reasonable, although I find on demand access to be far more powerful than extended durations; but the fact that we aren’t getting ANY of that support or revisions is kinda the problem and in incredibly poor taste. (Almost like a thief made this patch lol)

    I get that a lot of things are coming in the update, but chopping it off by 50% wholesale without proper support while we still have throttled vigor and jaunts, as well as other defensive cooldowns. When compared to other classes who evade more, or are at worst on par is awful.

    If something like that is their ultimate goal it should arrive at the same time. But with all the patch notes taken into consideration there is 0 reason to have mirage evade less than most of roster.

  • ArlAlt.1630ArlAlt.1630 Member ✭✭✭

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    In some ways I kind of like Mirage having a single powerful dodge - maybe it should have been properly designed like this in the first place rather than trying to play whack-a-mole with the repeated nerf attempts over the last few years.

    But I don't like they way they go about implementing massive changes like this as with Chrono and doing absolutely nothing else to scaffold and make it work.

    I believe if they are going down this path then Mirage should have global 50 endurance - PvP/WvW/PvE - all modes, not split.

    BUT - there should be SIGNIFICANT changes to support this:

    • increase mirage cloak duration to 1s
    • increase nomad's endurance to 2s
    • reduce Jaunt cooldown back to 20s
    • possibly add a trait for direct endurance refill, eg gain X endurance when hitting a player with an ambush attack
    • re-evaluate Mirrors and skills/traits that spawn them to somehow make them more unpredictable and readily accessible.

    Make it so we have tools to regain endurance more readily, with a powerful longer dodge, but tradeoff being to limit chainability.

    What do you care, not like you play anymore anyway. :lol:

    [HCM] 4 life!

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    How about this, while dodging you lose dodge distance.
    Seriously what's up with this kitten trade-offs? Mirage has a trade-off already.

    The degenerate

  • ArlAlt.1630ArlAlt.1630 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    How about this, while dodging you lose dodge distance.
    Seriously what's up with this kitten trade-offs? Mirage has a trade-off already.

    No menz, Memer OP nerf menz, need more tradeoffs menz. Wa wa wa

    [HCM] 4 life!

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    In some ways I kind of like Mirage having a single powerful dodge - maybe it should have been properly designed like this in the first place rather than trying to play whack-a-mole with the repeated nerf attempts over the last few years.

    But I don't like they way they go about implementing massive changes like this as with Chrono and doing absolutely nothing else to scaffold and make it work.

    I believe if they are going down this path then Mirage should have global 50 endurance - PvP/WvW/PvE - all modes, not split.

    BUT - there should be SIGNIFICANT changes to support this:

    • increase mirage cloak duration to 1s
    • increase nomad's endurance to 2s
    • reduce Jaunt cooldown back to 20s
    • possibly add a trait for direct endurance refill, eg gain X endurance when hitting a player with an ambush attack
    • re-evaluate Mirrors and skills/traits that spawn them to somehow make them more unpredictable and readily accessible.

    Make it so we have tools to regain endurance more readily, with a powerful longer dodge, but tradeoff being to limit chainability.

    What do you care, not like you play anymore anyway. :lol:

    Waitaminute........... Ah I see what's going on here. xD (welcome back)

    With the time and money invested I'll always have a reason to play, just need some good gameplay incentive! Will be fun to at least test out new things even if mirage ends up dead for some time until Anet do something about it.

    My ears, how are you! | Staff | Greatsword

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daishi.6027 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    In some ways I kind of like Mirage having a single powerful dodge - maybe it should have been properly designed like this in the first place rather than trying to play whack-a-mole with the repeated nerf attempts over the last few years.

    But I don't like they way they go about implementing massive changes like this as with Chrono and doing absolutely nothing else to scaffold and make it work.

    I believe if they are going down this path then Mirage should have global 50 endurance - PvP/WvW/PvE - all modes, not split.

    BUT - there should be SIGNIFICANT changes to support this:

    • increase mirage cloak duration to 1s
    • increase nomad's endurance to 2s
    • reduce Jaunt cooldown back to 20s
    • possibly add a trait for direct endurance refill, eg gain X endurance when hitting a player with an ambush attack
    • re-evaluate Mirrors and skills/traits that spawn them to somehow make them more unpredictable and readily accessible.

    Make it so we have tools to regain endurance more readily, with a powerful longer dodge, but tradeoff being to limit chainability.

    I agree that would be neat and kinda reasonable, although I find on demand access to be far more powerful than extended durations; but the fact that we aren’t getting ANY of that support or revisions is kinda the problem and in incredibly poor taste. (Almost like a thief made this patch lol)

    I get that a lot of things are coming in the update, but chopping it off by 50% wholesale without proper support while we still have throttled vigor and jaunts, as well as other defensive cooldowns. When compared to other classes who evade more, or are at worst on par is awful.

    If something like that is their ultimate goal it should arrive at the same time. But with all the patch notes taken into consideration there is 0 reason to have mirage evade less than most of roster.

    Yeah I think they should hold off and not do this change now if they're not planning to drop many other changes at the same time that would better support it. Seems like kneejerk kill mirage in competitive content so not have to worry about it for a while.

    People still gonna moan "mirage can dodge whenever it wants", and I'm sure bad players still going to get rekt no matter what. But reality is going to be pain in the kitten to play until Anet come up with further changes.

    My ears, how are you! | Staff | Greatsword

  • ArlAlt.1630ArlAlt.1630 Member ✭✭✭

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    In some ways I kind of like Mirage having a single powerful dodge - maybe it should have been properly designed like this in the first place rather than trying to play whack-a-mole with the repeated nerf attempts over the last few years.

    But I don't like they way they go about implementing massive changes like this as with Chrono and doing absolutely nothing else to scaffold and make it work.

    I believe if they are going down this path then Mirage should have global 50 endurance - PvP/WvW/PvE - all modes, not split.

    BUT - there should be SIGNIFICANT changes to support this:

    • increase mirage cloak duration to 1s
    • increase nomad's endurance to 2s
    • reduce Jaunt cooldown back to 20s
    • possibly add a trait for direct endurance refill, eg gain X endurance when hitting a player with an ambush attack
    • re-evaluate Mirrors and skills/traits that spawn them to somehow make them more unpredictable and readily accessible.

    Make it so we have tools to regain endurance more readily, with a powerful longer dodge, but tradeoff being to limit chainability.

    What do you care, not like you play anymore anyway. :lol:

    Waitaminute........... Ah I see what's going on here. xD (welcome back)

    With the time and money invested I'll always have a reason to play, just need some good gameplay incentive! Will be fun to at least test out new things even if mirage ends up dead for some time until Anet do something about it.

    Good to be back. I have figured out quite a few workarounds and have done some preliminary testing with 1 dodge. Gonna fill you in once it goes live.

    [HCM] 4 life!

  • Zoser.7245Zoser.7245 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2020

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    In some ways I kind of like Mirage having a single powerful dodge - maybe it should have been properly designed like this in the first place rather than trying to play whack-a-mole with the repeated nerf attempts over the last few years.

    But I don't like they way they go about implementing massive changes like this as with Chrono and doing absolutely nothing else to scaffold and make it work.

    I believe if they are going down this path then Mirage should have global 50 endurance - PvP/WvW/PvE - all modes, not split.

    BUT - there should be SIGNIFICANT changes to support this:

    • increase mirage cloak duration to 1s
    • increase nomad's endurance to 2s
    • reduce Jaunt cooldown back to 20s
    • possibly add a trait for direct endurance refill, eg gain X endurance when hitting a player with an ambush attack
    • re-evaluate Mirrors and skills/traits that spawn them to somehow make them more unpredictable and readily accessible.

    Make it so we have tools to regain endurance more readily, with a powerful longer dodge, but tradeoff being to limit chainability.

    I agree that would be neat and kinda reasonable, although I find on demand access to be far more powerful than extended durations; but the fact that we aren’t getting ANY of that support or revisions is kinda the problem and in incredibly poor taste. (Almost like a thief made this patch lol)

    I get that a lot of things are coming in the update, but chopping it off by 50% wholesale without proper support while we still have throttled vigor and jaunts, as well as other defensive cooldowns. When compared to other classes who evade more, or are at worst on par is awful.

    If something like that is their ultimate goal it should arrive at the same time. But with all the patch notes taken into consideration there is 0 reason to have mirage evade less than most of roster.

    Yeah I think they should hold off and not do this change now if they're not planning to drop many other changes at the same time that would better support it. Seems like kneejerk kill mirage in competitive content so not have to worry about it for a while.

    People still gonna moan "mirage can dodge whenever it wants", and I'm sure bad players still going to get rekt no matter what. But reality is going to be pain in the kitten to play until Anet come up with further changes.

    For play something that is a pain, better play something else that is more rewarding for you. Even in the upcoming patch notes, there are traits that have been reworked due to be unsused. Be here whining or claiming for things is a waste of time. If we play other professions and keep mesmer abandoned, at least in PvP/WvW, maybe they'll reconsider some changes and do some rework after watch that nobody play mesmer anymore in competitive modes, their statistics will alert them for sure. It is the only way I see in which we can protest. And also avoiding be pi**ed off because our mesmer does not work as it should and is castrate... At least, we will have fun with other professions and specializations more appetizing and rewarding than ours today. Mine will only watch the living world history and daily missions. Sad but real. I don't want to be relegated to play core or a single thing/build that still works or be mediocre while others have many alternatives.

    Of course, each one has its own vision and decide what to do with the upcoming changes. In my case, for play something that i watch restricted and not works as it should and is not as fun as it was, i simply prefer avoid it until it is fixed. As you mentioned we will always return, we always do XD, but from my point of view, when things work as they should and worth it.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zoser.7245 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    In some ways I kind of like Mirage having a single powerful dodge - maybe it should have been properly designed like this in the first place rather than trying to play whack-a-mole with the repeated nerf attempts over the last few years.

    But I don't like they way they go about implementing massive changes like this as with Chrono and doing absolutely nothing else to scaffold and make it work.

    I believe if they are going down this path then Mirage should have global 50 endurance - PvP/WvW/PvE - all modes, not split.

    BUT - there should be SIGNIFICANT changes to support this:

    • increase mirage cloak duration to 1s
    • increase nomad's endurance to 2s
    • reduce Jaunt cooldown back to 20s
    • possibly add a trait for direct endurance refill, eg gain X endurance when hitting a player with an ambush attack
    • re-evaluate Mirrors and skills/traits that spawn them to somehow make them more unpredictable and readily accessible.

    Make it so we have tools to regain endurance more readily, with a powerful longer dodge, but tradeoff being to limit chainability.

    I agree that would be neat and kinda reasonable, although I find on demand access to be far more powerful than extended durations; but the fact that we aren’t getting ANY of that support or revisions is kinda the problem and in incredibly poor taste. (Almost like a thief made this patch lol)

    I get that a lot of things are coming in the update, but chopping it off by 50% wholesale without proper support while we still have throttled vigor and jaunts, as well as other defensive cooldowns. When compared to other classes who evade more, or are at worst on par is awful.

    If something like that is their ultimate goal it should arrive at the same time. But with all the patch notes taken into consideration there is 0 reason to have mirage evade less than most of roster.

    Yeah I think they should hold off and not do this change now if they're not planning to drop many other changes at the same time that would better support it. Seems like kneejerk kill mirage in competitive content so not have to worry about it for a while.

    People still gonna moan "mirage can dodge whenever it wants", and I'm sure bad players still going to get rekt no matter what. But reality is going to be pain in the kitten to play until Anet come up with further changes.

    For play something that is a pain, better play something else that is more rewarding for you. Even in the upcoming patch notes, there are traits that have been reworked due to be unsused. Be here whining or claiming for things is a waste of time. If we play other professions and keep mesmer abandoned, at least in PvP/WvW, maybe they'll reconsider some changes and do some rework after watch that nobody play mesmer anymore in competitive modes, their statistics will alert them for sure. It is the only way I see in which we can protest. And also avoiding be pi**ed off because our mesmer does not work as it should and is castrate... At least, we will have fun with other professions and specializations more appetizing and rewarding than ours today. Mine will only watch the living world history and daily missions. Sad but real. I don't want to be relegated to play core or a single thing/build that still works or be mediocre while others have many alternatives.

    Of course, each one has its own vision and decide what to do with the upcoming changes. In my case, for play something that i watch restricted and not works as it should and is not as fun as it was, i simply prefer avoid it until it is fixed. As you mentioned we will always return, we always do XD, but from my point of view, when things work as they should and worth it.

    Given one of the main reasons I play right now is the aesthetics of mirage in particular, I'll figure out something, even if it's underperforming. :) I'd imagine regardless of this statistics will do the talking over the coming weeks so hopefully things should eventually balance out.

    My ears, how are you! | Staff | Greatsword

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zoser.7245 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    In some ways I kind of like Mirage having a single powerful dodge - maybe it should have been properly designed like this in the first place rather than trying to play whack-a-mole with the repeated nerf attempts over the last few years.

    But I don't like they way they go about implementing massive changes like this as with Chrono and doing absolutely nothing else to scaffold and make it work.

    I believe if they are going down this path then Mirage should have global 50 endurance - PvP/WvW/PvE - all modes, not split.

    BUT - there should be SIGNIFICANT changes to support this:

    • increase mirage cloak duration to 1s
    • increase nomad's endurance to 2s
    • reduce Jaunt cooldown back to 20s
    • possibly add a trait for direct endurance refill, eg gain X endurance when hitting a player with an ambush attack
    • re-evaluate Mirrors and skills/traits that spawn them to somehow make them more unpredictable and readily accessible.

    Make it so we have tools to regain endurance more readily, with a powerful longer dodge, but tradeoff being to limit chainability.

    I agree that would be neat and kinda reasonable, although I find on demand access to be far more powerful than extended durations; but the fact that we aren’t getting ANY of that support or revisions is kinda the problem and in incredibly poor taste. (Almost like a thief made this patch lol)

    I get that a lot of things are coming in the update, but chopping it off by 50% wholesale without proper support while we still have throttled vigor and jaunts, as well as other defensive cooldowns. When compared to other classes who evade more, or are at worst on par is awful.

    If something like that is their ultimate goal it should arrive at the same time. But with all the patch notes taken into consideration there is 0 reason to have mirage evade less than most of roster.

    Yeah I think they should hold off and not do this change now if they're not planning to drop many other changes at the same time that would better support it. Seems like kneejerk kill mirage in competitive content so not have to worry about it for a while.

    People still gonna moan "mirage can dodge whenever it wants", and I'm sure bad players still going to get rekt no matter what. But reality is going to be pain in the kitten to play until Anet come up with further changes.

    For play something that is a pain, better play something else that is more rewarding for you. Even in the upcoming patch notes, there are traits that have been reworked due to be unsused. Be here whining or claiming for things is a waste of time. If we play other professions and keep mesmer abandoned, at least in PvP/WvW, maybe they'll reconsider some changes and do some rework after watch that nobody play mesmer anymore in competitive modes, their statistics will alert them for sure. It is the only way I see in which we can protest. And also avoiding be pi**ed off because our mesmer does not work as it should and is castrate... At least, we will have fun with other professions and specializations more appetizing and rewarding than ours today. Mine will only watch the living world history and daily missions. Sad but real. I don't want to be relegated to play core or a single thing/build that still works or be mediocre while others have many alternatives.

    Of course, each one has its own vision and decide what to do with the upcoming changes. In my case, for play something that i watch restricted and not works as it should and is not as fun as it was, i simply prefer avoid it until it is fixed. As you mentioned we will always return, we always do XD, but from my point of view, when things work as they should and worth it.

    I'll try it because I like literally everything else in the patch and it's a good track. They also said they are keeping an eye on things. But history with A-net and "admitting fault" with class changes is rare (look where chrono is.)

    Out of protest I'll probably stop playing PvP if it's really bad. However, it doesn't really matter how unviable mes is (in any iteration) people are still going to complain about it. Even when Mesmer was just a portal bot, and replacable in slot by any burst class; people were still shouting "Mes OP!" and "NERF Mes!"

  • @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    How about this, while dodging you lose dodge distance.
    Seriously what's up with this kitten trade-offs? Mirage has a trade-off already.

    Yeah, but the tradeoff isn't working. People are still playing the class in competitive modes!

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A proper trade off would have been removing ambush on dodge and turning shatters into ambush skills to be honest with you.
    In other words IH would need a rework and becomes nothing more than a tool to help keep clones alive not a clone sustain tool that also was doing tons of damage that never encouraged one to shatter.

    Also they should have fixed the being able to dodge while stunned people wouldn't have complained as much if the mirage just died when it got hit with a solid cc but IH not only allowed it to evade generally a large portion of the follow up but also made it so that clones would retaliate with an ambush attack on their targets so you end up landing a cc and taking more damage than the mirage did in alot of situation which was certainly never fair.

  • Genesis.5169Genesis.5169 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I dont think were gonna get any better guys.
    I just don't i've spent a good amount of time in pvp before the patches just to why.

    I can't see it and this change made it through, like the Chaotic Interruption Nerf, Elusive Mind. They some how nerfed chrono even and the spec has been 6 feet under for awhile. I had some fight in me when i came back but playing this mirage alot prolly 30-40 matches a day made me realize this patch is just hatred it was clearly aimed to destroy mirage as a spec in favor of nothing at all just removal of mesmers in pvp.

    For those on the forums who advocate for the removal of duo queues in Spvp, realize your actions over the past 7 years has destroyed gw2 Spvp and thinking doing the same thing again is a good idea after several years of it not working crazy. Get better at pvp.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They'll just implement your suggestion to reduce illusions from 3 to 2 and call it a day.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs - Thieves
    A skill overpowered? just nerf their dodge, balanced. - Anet
    There's no power creep you just don't recognize more people hitting you - Flat Earther

  • Moradorin.6217Moradorin.6217 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2020

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    A proper trade off would have been removing ambush on dodge and turning shatters into ambush skills to be honest with you.
    In other words IH would need a rework and becomes nothing more than a tool to help keep clones alive not a clone sustain tool that also was doing tons of damage that never encouraged one to shatter.

    Also they should have fixed the being able to dodge while stunned people wouldn't have complained as much if the mirage just died when it got hit with a solid cc but IH not only allowed it to evade generally a large portion of the follow up but also made it so that clones would retaliate with an ambush attack on their targets so you end up landing a cc and taking more damage than the mirage did in alot of situation which was certainly never fair.

    Well to be honest I see those situations very differently. For example, lets say a thief and mirage are fighting for a side node (used to be common). If the Mirage is low on health but has all its skills off/near-off cooldown, weapon swap available, shatters available/coming off cooldown in a sec, etc. Some times it WAS possible to use Mirage Cloak, distortion, divertion, magic bullet, etc to turn the tables on a full health thief if they assumed the low health Mirage couldnt stay up long enough to deal much damage, which is lazy and deserves to be punished. On the other hand, if the thief used caution and skill and not make any assumption it would be and was the easy kill, like it should be. Just like if the mirage approached said thief with skills all on fresh cooldown with no plan even with full health and energy they would quickly lose and be punished for poor planning. Mirage is and always was very counterable and killable. I mean seriously, its just that its tells are not the same and the best strategy to take out a Mirage isnt the same as the best strategy and skills needed to counter and take out a Mirage isnt always the same as those needed to take out a spellbreaker. I think that was a good thing.

    What Im trying to say is the "made it so that clones would retaliate with an ambush attack on their targets so you end up landing a cc and taking more damage" statement sounds more like the mirage isnt being countered due to either being the wrong build or class, or lack of skill. What I mean is, The ambush damage primarily from the clones. So CCing the Mirage while it has 3 clones when you could otherwise take out the clones first (or position to make them not path to you) then cc is arguably just a player making a mistake when encountering a Mirage that should be punished.

    The Mirage is punished by wasting its shatters, ambushes, etc if it uses them without clones (or without consideration for opponents blocks/evades or clone path to target). They are presured by taking out the clones with things like cleave combined correctly with CC. If you do it backwards, however, you know mindlessly you may get punishded. Just like the mirage is punished for mindlessly wasting its skills without clones or without reason.

    That is why clone generation was a balance issue for so long on Mirage. The ability to constantly kitten out clones so fast reduced the impact this idea otherwise has. However, I would say with the changes to scepter 2, staff 3, vigor uptime, and various other skill changes that slowed clone generation. That was already basically under control.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 29, 2020

    I think the tradeoff for Mirage shouldn't be tied to their dodge, but to their Shatters.

    It just doesn't feel right that Mirage already has a wonky dodge but now have their legs cut off in addition to that.

    What I would do is make Mirage clones/shatter behave differently, just like Chrono has different Shatters.
    The tradeoff could be reduced max clones or something, or Clones do not shatter, and shatters are basically always Level 1.

    Having a single dodge when everyone has two dodges is just not right.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Xaylin.1860Xaylin.1860 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    I think the tradeoff for Mirage shouldn't be tied to their dodge, but to their Shatters.

    I'd rather see Ambush attacks being linked to Shatters and the trade off being weaker Phantasms. This would also solve the issue that Mirages usually don't want to use their Shatters. Yes, you can. But it's not the best move way too often.

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 1, 2020

    @Xaylin.1860 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    I think the tradeoff for Mirage shouldn't be tied to their dodge, but to their Shatters.

    I'd rather see Ambush attacks being linked to Shatters and the trade off being weaker Phantasms. This would also solve the issue that Mirages usually don't want to use their Shatters. Yes, you can. But it's not the best move way too often.

    I'd be fine with this, if Distortion remains untouched, and we got 4 different kinds of ambushes that at least somewhat correlate to the shatter.

    Because if you got rid of shatters and phantasm damage, mirage wouldn't do much of anything on a power spec. While condi would go almost untouched.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2, 2020

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:
    Next patch: We felt like Mirage didn’t have enough of a trade off, so we reduced Phantasm damage coefficients to 0.000001, to be more in line with where we feel Mirage should be. We also decided that 50 endurance is too much for Mirage, so we are further lowering it to 25. We kept the original cost of a dodge roll at 50. To compensate we increased ambush attack’s damage across all weapons by 10000%
    We think this is the way.

    What's sad is that they must be might actually implement some of the ideas here on this thread, but on top of the 50% endurance, giving nothing in return.
    But w/e mesmers have been rekt in the kitten times and times again and still didn't learnt to stay quiet.

    The degenerate