Jormag, Primordus, and DSD New power level. — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Lore

Jormag, Primordus, and DSD New power level.

I read no so long ago a discussion about the death of almorra and that she may still have a part in the story, and it have come to mind something, Kralkatorrik have absorbed some of zhaitan and mordremoth's power's, so its easy to assume so did the other dragons.

We cannot assume that the others aren't as powerfull as kralk even though he got balthazars powers, and because of that also got residual magic energy from both the defeated elder dragons up to that point, now kralk's powers where completely absorbed by aurene, so in this case his powers where not transferred to the others.

What we can assume of this is that the abillity that jormag have shown to reanimate dead people (like she did in episode 1) is not a jormag power but an absorbed zhaitan power, (and in that case almorra might as well come back as an jormag zombie), after mordre death Jormag mind powers might have increased (since mordre was the mind dragon), and that may explain why she could influence other people than her fanatics (even the char miles away).

The timeframe is also good since kralk was the most powerful after absorbing balthazar, jormag just waited his death to act. (Since she was the only other awaked that we know)

That also may help with primordus, and the DSD character development since they may be able to use this powers to be more complex villains.

Comments

  • Jormag is not reanimating people.

    Anet talked about this during some interview. Spiders don't have muscles on their legs to force them back out after pulling them back in, instead, they forcibly pump blood into their legs to force them to extend back out.

    What Jormag did to Almorra, and the Franier, was described as something similar. They are not being reanimated like undead are, but are instead being puppeted by Jormag using its power.

  • Perhaps Reanimate was not the right word. I didn’t mean reanimate in make a undead body, but reanimate in term of jormag possessing the dead body. Which may still be in the realm of zhaitan's power's (since he deals with the after death).

    Regardless this theory may also explain why she can affect the sylvari that should be immune to her corruption, and resistant to "mind influences" after mordre.

    In addition, this "having the other dragon’s powers" thing was never addressed (to my knowledge) as being a kralk only thing.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    From what I can recall atm (I have bad memory so bear with me)

    Zhaitan died and his power was absorbed by all the other dragons as well as a portion of it was absorbed by Tequatl giving him a power boost.
    Mordremoth, Kralkatorrik, Primordus and Jormag have all shown signs of experimenting with the death spectrum and it's very likely that DSD also possess this spectrum as well.

    After Mordremoth fell Aurine, Primordus and Jormag got the bulk of it's magic as seen new variants of plant and death based Destroyer and Icebrood minions.
    Kralkatorrik also got some of this power too as seen by fighting the Facet of Root and Madness within him during the War Eternal Chaptor of living world.
    Again it's also likely that DSD got this power as well.

    Then Balthazar came into the mix having been stripped of the bulk of his power and divinity he then supercharged himself by consuming a bloodstone as well as absorbing the power feedback while acting as a conduit between Jormag and Primordus gaining another power boost from both dragons and putting them back into a pre awakening state.

    When Balthazar fell Aurine absorbed something from him, this hasn't fully been clarified but she's been connected to Balthazars power ever since, Kralkatorrik then sucked up most of the magic released by the fallen god.

    Kralkatorrik at this point is juiced up on so much power and magic he manages to tear his way into the mists and starts consuming everything he can while destroying everything he can.
    When Kralkatorrik is finally defeated Aurine absorbs the bulk of his power and evolves into a new Elder dragon while Jormag, Primordus and DSD absorbed the rest.

    At this point in time I belive Aurine is either the strongest of the Elder Dragons or at least on par with the DSD who is probably more powerful than the others due to it having no interaction with any known force capable of withstanding or hurting it.
    Jormag and Primordus I believe are still in some form of weakened state, Primordus may in fact still be asleep as nothing has been heard from him since season 3.
    Jormag has become active again although it may also still be asleep under the ice and has been acting through it's Champion Drakkar while it continues to heal itself from the events of season 3.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Kralkatorrik at this point is juiced up on so much power and magic he manages to tear his way into the mists and starts consuming everything he can while destroying everything he can.

    I think it's not the amount of magic he fed upon that's responsible for his Mists dives.
    I think being able to dive in and out of the Mists is only Because of Balthazar's God magic he absorbed.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Kralkatorrik at this point is juiced up on so much power and magic he manages to tear his way into the mists and starts consuming everything he can while destroying everything he can.

    I think it's not the amount of magic he fed upon that's responsible for his Mists dives.
    I think being able to dive in and out of the Mists is only Because of Balthazar's God magic he absorbed.

    I am uncertain if it's only that, for the most part Balthazar had much of his God magic stripped away from him by the other Gods.. hence his need to power up on the Bloodstone as well as two elder dragons.
    I think it's a combination of both Balthazar's god magic and all the raw magic power he absorbed rather than just one or the other.
    If it was just Balth magic then i'd expect Jormag and the other dragons would also have this ability to enter the mists prior to Kralks death, but so far we've seen no evidence of this.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Kralkatorrik at this point is juiced up on so much power and magic he manages to tear his way into the mists and starts consuming everything he can while destroying everything he can.

    I think it's not the amount of magic he fed upon that's responsible for his Mists dives.
    I think being able to dive in and out of the Mists is only Because of Balthazar's God magic he absorbed.

    I am uncertain if it's only that, for the most part Balthazar had much of his God magic stripped away from him by the other Gods.. hence his need to power up on the Bloodstone as well as two elder dragons.
    I think it's a combination of both Balthazar's god magic and all the raw magic power he absorbed rather than just one or the other.
    If it was just Balth magic then i'd expect Jormag and the other dragons would also have this ability to enter the mists prior to Kralks death, but so far we've seen no evidence of this.

    He still had his magic to traverse the mists, as we have seen in Rytlock's flash back after R. breaking his shackles.
    Otherwise he wouldn't have been able to come back to Tyria.
    And as we have seen with Joko and Aurene, utilizing consumed specific magical abilities is very much possible for (Elder) Dragons.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    At this point in time I belive Aurine is either the strongest of the Elder Dragons or at least on par with the DSD who is probably more powerful than the others due to it having no interaction with any known force capable of withstanding or hurting it.

    I would say Aurene is almost certainly thew weakest Elder Dragon right now. Her powers are far too new to her for her to have the same sort of mastery over them the other Elder Dragons, who have existed for countless millennia do.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    At this point in time I belive Aurine is either the strongest of the Elder Dragons or at least on par with the DSD who is probably more powerful than the others due to it having no interaction with any known force capable of withstanding or hurting it.

    I would say Aurene is almost certainly thew weakest Elder Dragon right now. Her powers are far too new to her for her to have the same sort of mastery over them the other Elder Dragons, who have existed for countless millennia do.

    Inexperienced sure but she's been right in the face of the strongest creatures when they've died for a while now.
    She ate Joko, face tanked Balthazars explosion and was first in line to Kralkatorriks absurd level of power when he died.
    It's been mentioned a lot over time that proximity does matter when a Dragon absorbes anothers magic so Aurine should be the most powerful of them right now or at least more powerful than Jormag and Primordus who were weakened in season 3.

    We've not really seen her in action since her ascention though with exception to a bit of crystal branding so we don't know how powerful she currently is atm and can only speculate.
    The fact that Jormag seeks an alliance with her though suggests the Ice dragon considers her a threat or at the very least a powerful potential ally to help her fight a common enemy.
    Elder Dragons as far as we know have never sort out alliances with other Elder Dragons so this is a very curious move for Jormag to make, and im very much looking forward to getting to the bottom of it's motives.

  • Patty.3268Patty.3268 Member ✭✭✭

    Regarding Jormag's motives: I suspect that regardless if he/she needs us and/or Aurene to face a bigger threat or not, the ultimate goal is to get close enough to Aurene to kill her and absorb her powers. If there's indeed a bigger threat that requires an alliance with Jormag, Jormag will probably use it to try and gain our trust or at least get closer to Aurene and will make a move as soon as that threat has been dealt with. Jormag might not even wait until then and instead try to get Aurene's powers to face the threat alone while we're distracted with actually fighting it.

  • Unless Aurene's appearance is actually a trick of lighting or a projection, she's a midget among elder dragons. Jormag probably assumes Aurene could be strong armed into servitude if only Aurene got close enough to Jormag's currently immobile form.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    Unless Aurene's appearance is actually a trick of lighting or a projection, she's a midget among elder dragons. Jormag probably assumes Aurene could be strong armed into servitude if only Aurene got close enough to Jormag's currently immobile form.

    She's definitely on the tiny side, but we don't know for sure that size correlates directly to power. It's suggested a few times that by All Or Nothing, Kralkatorrik is more powerful than any dragon has ever been, but at that point Kralk is still much, much smaller than what we see of Primordus in Flashpoint.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • @Patty.3268 said:
    Regarding Jormag's motives...

    Honestly I think it's simply self preservation. So far Jormag has gone 0/3 with the Commander and I have no doubt they're aware that everyone and anyone who has gone up against the Commander caught a bad case of dead. I don't think Jormag trying to steal some power is unlikely but I think the alliance offer is legit.

    ...

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    I am uncertain if it's only that, for the most part Balthazar had much of his God magic stripped away from him by the other Gods.. hence his need to power up on the Bloodstone as well as two elder dragons.
    I think it's a combination of both Balthazar's god magic and all the raw magic power he absorbed rather than just one or the other.
    If it was just Balth magic then i'd expect Jormag and the other dragons would also have this ability to enter the mists prior to Kralks death, but so far we've seen no evidence of this.

    Aurene was able to open portals into the Mists too and most definitely didn't have the insane amount of magic that Kralkatorrik had, not even a proper fraction hence the need of an entire army to take him down. It was 100% Balthazar's magic, though I wouldn't call it "god magic" since Balthazar was stripped of power.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Inexperienced sure but she's been right in the face of the strongest creatures when they've died for a while now.
    She ate Joko, face tanked Balthazars explosion and was first in line to Kralkatorriks absurd level of power when he died.
    It's been mentioned a lot over time that proximity does matter when a Dragon absorbes anothers magic so Aurine should be the most powerful of them right now or at least more powerful than Jormag and Primordus who were weakened in season 3.

    If the theory that size = power, then Aurene is definitely the weakest Elder Dragon, as she's the smallest - smaller even than the Claw of Jormag, Tequatl, or the Shatterer. She's the same size as Vlast, Glint, and Drakkar.

    That said, we have no idea how Aurene has treated the "foreign magic" after her ascension. While she had Balthazar's and Joko's magic when confronting Kralkatorrik (it's hard pressed to say she had Zhaitan's or Mordremoth's really since she had so little magic upon hatching - and of Mordremoth's magic that went north, most of it went to the Maguuma Bloodstone beyond Tarir, so she didn't even get 1/4th of Mordy's juice), we don't know how she treated the non-Crystal/Fury magic that Kralkatorrik had absorbed.

    And it should be noted that while Aurene "facetanked Balthazar's explosion", she only consumed magic in the epicenter. After doing that, she couldn't take in anymore, her body began to react negatively (by growing rapidly) and she had to fly off. Kralkatorrik took the vast majority of Balthazar's magic and, as mentioned, we don't know how Aurene handled that magic when replacing Kralkatorrik.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I am uncertain if it's only that, for the most part Balthazar had much of his God magic stripped away from him by the other Gods.. hence his need to power up on the Bloodstone as well as two elder dragons.
    I think it's a combination of both Balthazar's god magic and all the raw magic power he absorbed rather than just one or the other.
    If it was just Balth magic then i'd expect Jormag and the other dragons would also have this ability to enter the mists prior to Kralks death, but so far we've seen no evidence of this.

    Aurene was able to open portals into the Mists too and most definitely didn't have the insane amount of magic that Kralkatorrik had, not even a proper fraction hence the need of an entire army to take him down. It was 100% Balthazar's magic, though I wouldn't call it "god magic" since Balthazar was stripped of power.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Inexperienced sure but she's been right in the face of the strongest creatures when they've died for a while now.
    She ate Joko, face tanked Balthazars explosion and was first in line to Kralkatorriks absurd level of power when he died.
    It's been mentioned a lot over time that proximity does matter when a Dragon absorbes anothers magic so Aurine should be the most powerful of them right now or at least more powerful than Jormag and Primordus who were weakened in season 3.

    If the theory that size = power, then Aurene is definitely the weakest Elder Dragon, as she's the smallest - smaller even than the Claw of Jormag, Tequatl, or the Shatterer. She's the same size as Vlast, Glint, and Drakkar.

    We could also be dealing with a projection of Aurene as well. So we should keep that mind as she also stated this to the Commander when in that last instance. Aurene also has no clipping in the Eye of the North.

    What have you been doing this whole time?
    Aurene: Learning. Mending. Listening. Elder Dragons are burdened with more than we could possibly have known.
    Aurene: You see me here, you speak with me, but I'm also in the Mists, repairing the damage Kralkatorrik caused.
    Aurene: I am...a part of everything. All the magic of this world, like blood in my veins. I feel it all the time.

    So she is at the Eye of the North and also in the Mists as well or so it seems. Could just be the wording though.

  • In my opinion he must be at Zhaitan's level (At the moment)... maybe stronger physically because of its size (probably larger than Zhaitan) but magically similar

    Zhaitan only had his own power.
    Mordremoth had Zhaitan's + his own power.
    Jormag Pre Pof and Primordius had Zhaitan, Mordremoth + their own powers. But it seems that both lost Zhaitan's and Mordremoth Power thanks to Balthazar.
    Kralkatorrik post PoF had Fallen Balthazar, Mordremtoh, Zhaitan and a bit of Jormag's & Primordius powers + his own one.

    The norn are the militarily weakest race (I know, individually they're the strongest race, but in a hypotethical war, Norn and Sylvari have no a chance against humans, asura and obivulsy, the charr) , and still they could defend themselves well against Jormag minions since GW2 Launch.

    Zhaitan's level isn't a Joke neither... but compared with Mordremoth or Kralkatorrik, welp he's like a little cat agaisnt a wolf.

  • @ZolracAtrox.2908 said:
    Zhaitan's level isn't a Joke neither... but compared with Mordremoth or Kralkatorrik, welp he's like a little cat agaisnt a wolf.

    I would say that Mordremoth really wasn't that much more powerful then Zhaitan. Mordremoth was able to just use his, previously unknown, connection to the sylvari to swiftly eliminate the Pact's greatest advantage, their airship army, which scarred and disoriented their forces.

  • @ZolracAtrox.2908 said:
    Jormag Pre Pof and Primordius had Zhaitan, Mordremoth + their own powers. But it seems that both lost Zhaitan's and Mordremoth Power thanks to Balthazar.
    Kralkatorrik post PoF had Fallen Balthazar, Mordremtoh, Zhaitan and a bit of Jormag's & Primordius powers + his own one.

    I would disagree with both these to certain degrees.

    Taimi's Machine was pulling Jormag's and Primordus' signature energies from them, so it shouldn't have affected the magic they gained from Zhaitan and Mordremoth at all, just their own original ice and fire magic. Jormag still has some of Zhaitan's magic, though they're a lot more sparse in using it - Drakkar has some Zhaitan magic, for example.

    With Kralkatorrik, he never exhibited using fire or ice magic (that he didn't have in core), and during both the big blast of The Crystal Dragon, and the facets of magic in Descent, we only saw Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Balthazar. Balthazar, similarly used only the magic he used prior to the finale of S3, indicating that Balthazar somehow completely altered the form of magic from what he absorbed into his own war and fire magic. So Balthazar, while empowered by Jormag's and Primordus' magic, only ever had his own "flavor" of magic; similarly, Kralkatorrik and Aurene only had Balthazar's flavor of magic, not Jormag's and Primordus'.

    Zhaitan's level isn't a Joke neither... but compared with Mordremoth or Kralkatorrik, welp he's like a little cat agaisnt a wolf.

    Against core Kralkatorrik, I would argue Zhaitan is completely on par. I would say all six Elder Dragons were, and the only reason why Mordremoth was significantly tougher was because of his ability to take over the sylvari and having some of Zhaitan's magic, while Kralkatorrik was tougher because he got magic from Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and most especially, Balthazar.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2020

    Hell, I'm with Sajuuk, in not being convinced that Mordremoth was tougher in any real sense. If we had to fight Zhaitan on foot, with battered, weary, and stranded soldiers, and without any of the specialized weaponry that did all the work for us, who knows how we would have fared?

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    Hell, I'm with Sajuuk, in not being convinced that Mordremoth was tougher in any real sense. If we had to fight Zhaitan on foot, with battered, weary, and stranded soldiers, and without any of the specialized weaponry that did all the work for us, who knows how we would have fared?

    Fair enough, however the only reason we ended up that way was the sleeper agents it had tucked away in the Pact ranks. Mordremoth was lying in wait for us, most likely being fed information from his Mordrem Guard.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    Hell, I'm with Sajuuk, in not being convinced that Mordremoth was tougher in any real sense. If we had to fight Zhaitan on foot, with battered, weary, and stranded soldiers, and without any of the specialized weaponry that did all the work for us, who knows how we would have fared?

    Fair enough, however the only reason we ended up that way was the sleeper agents it had tucked away in the Pact ranks. Mordremoth was lying in wait for us, most likely being fed information from his Mordrem Guard.

    That's not entirely accurate. Those "sleeper agents" were a case of taking advantage of an unintended opportunity. They were "sleeper agents" for literally only a few weeks/couple months - from when the Pale Tree was attacked to the Pact Fleet's destruction.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    Hell, I'm with Sajuuk, in not being convinced that Mordremoth was tougher in any real sense. If we had to fight Zhaitan on foot, with battered, weary, and stranded soldiers, and without any of the specialized weaponry that did all the work for us, who knows how we would have fared?

    Fair enough, however the only reason we ended up that way was the sleeper agents it had tucked away in the Pact ranks. Mordremoth was lying in wait for us, most likely being fed information from his Mordrem Guard.

    That's not entirely accurate. Those "sleeper agents" were a case of taking advantage of an unintended opportunity. They were "sleeper agents" for literally only a few weeks/couple months - from when the Pale Tree was attacked to the Pact Fleet's destruction.

    Oh I was just thinking in terms that Mordremoth knew the Pact was incoming and it was not surprise attack with an advantage being on Mordremoth’s side. I’m sure he picked up a good deal of info just from Camp Resolve.

  • Ithirahad.5132Ithirahad.5132 Member ✭✭
    edited March 17, 2020

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    Unless Aurene's appearance is actually a trick of lighting or a projection, she's a midget among elder dragons. Jormag probably assumes Aurene could be strong armed into servitude if only Aurene got close enough to Jormag's currently immobile form.

    In fairness, Aurene stated that while sitting in the Eye she's simultaneously flying around the Mists repairing Kralkatorrik's damage. If any of this works at all intuitively, which granted it doesn't necessarily, that would mean that at the very least a pretty big facet of her is separated, so the physical form we see only represents a fraction of her power. The only representation we've gotten of her full form was during the LWS4 end cinematic, and that was somewhat abstract, but was definitely bigger than the Aurene we see now.

  • @Ithirahad.5132 said:
    In fairness, Aurene stated that while sitting in the Eye she's simultaneously flying around the Mists repairing Kralkatorrik's damage. If any of this works at all intuitively, which granted it doesn't necessarily, that would mean that at the very least a pretty big facet of her is separated, so the physical form we see only represents a fraction of her power. The only representation we've gotten of her full form was during the LWS4 end cinematic, and that was somewhat abstract, but was definitely bigger than the Aurene we see now.

    The reason she's so much smaller may also simply be because she is still way younger than the other Elder Dragons. We don't know the Deep Sea Dragon's power level, but from a brute force standpoint Aurene is stronger than Jormag and Primordous. But she is only a few years old, and they are both at least 10,000 years old. And given there's no mention from the ancient races of them managing to kill an Elder Dragon (although Joko did claim to have been the one who turned Kralkatorick into an Elder Dragon, if he can be believed, so that might have happened in the last cycle), we can safely say the remaining Elder Dragons are all at least 20,000 years old. They've had a lot of time to grow. A side note is that they've also had much more time to learn how to use their power. So Aurene shouldn't underestimate Jormag.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @WafflingMean.4351 said:

    @Ithirahad.5132 said:
    In fairness, Aurene stated that while sitting in the Eye she's simultaneously flying around the Mists repairing Kralkatorrik's damage. If any of this works at all intuitively, which granted it doesn't necessarily, that would mean that at the very least a pretty big facet of her is separated, so the physical form we see only represents a fraction of her power. The only representation we've gotten of her full form was during the LWS4 end cinematic, and that was somewhat abstract, but was definitely bigger than the Aurene we see now.

    The reason she's so much smaller may also simply be because she is still way younger than the other Elder Dragons. We don't know the Deep Sea Dragon's power level, but from a brute force standpoint Aurene is stronger than Jormag and Primordous. But she is only a few years old, and they are both at least 10,000 years old. And given there's no mention from the ancient races of them managing to kill an Elder Dragon (although Joko did claim to have been the one who turned Kralkatorick into an Elder Dragon, if he can be believed, so that might have happened in the last cycle), we can safely say the remaining Elder Dragons are all at least 20,000 years old. They've had a lot of time to grow. A side note is that they've also had much more time to learn how to use their power. So Aurene shouldn't underestimate Jormag.

    Unfortunately Joko did not turn Kralkatorrik into an Elder Dragon. This is again one of those Joko Propaganda. Couple Halloween’s back we were provided a journal of Joko’s early days which show him being alive around at the time of when Mad king thorn was still living and a prince. I’ll post the link.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Private_Property_of_P.I._Joko

  • WafflingMean.4351WafflingMean.4351 Member ✭✭
    edited March 26, 2020

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Unfortunately Joko did not turn Kralkatorrik into an Elder Dragon. This is again one of those Joko Propaganda. Couple Halloween’s back we were provided a journal of Joko’s early days which show him being alive around at the time of when Mad king thorn was still living and a prince. I’ll post the link.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Private_Property_of_P.I._Joko

    Yeah I did hear about that, and it really annoys me that they decided to almost immediately end what could have been an extremely good mystery. I know it's almost certainly useless but I'll hold out the hope that the theory is somehow true. Joko mentions his mother being alive in the diary meaning he's either not a lich yet or it was something incredibly recent. But they never do specify how he became a lich. Maybe he tapped into some ancient powerful being or something that might have existed on Tyria for a long time? Or perhaps when he became a lich he was possessed by something? So in addition to himself there's some sort of inhuman being within him that predates the arrival of humans on Tyria? But that's completely ridiculous at best. The only thing that gives the theory some credence is his knowledge of the Elder Dragons, referring to them as "the life force of this world". It wasn't really common knowledge that killing dragons was a bad idea at this point. Again I know there's basically no evidence for it and it's completely senseless, but it would make for such a good story. I think going out of their way to end that mystery was one of the worst decisions the writers have ever made. Ooo maybe the diary was a lie! I'm gonna hold on to that. Please don't judge my state of denial.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @WafflingMean.4351 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Unfortunately Joko did not turn Kralkatorrik into an Elder Dragon. This is again one of those Joko Propaganda. Couple Halloween’s back we were provided a journal of Joko’s early days which show him being alive around at the time of when Mad king thorn was still living and a prince. I’ll post the link.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Private_Property_of_P.I._Joko

    Yeah I did hear about that, and it really annoys me that they decided to almost immediately end what could have been an extremely good mystery. I know it's almost certainly useless but I'll hold out the hope that the theory is somehow true. Joko mentions his mother being alive in the diary meaning he's either not a lich yet or it was something incredibly recent. But they never do specify how he became a lich. Maybe he tapped into some ancient powerful being or something that might have existed on Tyria for a long time? Or perhaps when he became a lich he was possessed by something? So in addition to himself there's some sort of inhuman being within him that predates the arrival of humans on Tyria? But that's completely ridiculous at best. The only thing that gives the theory some credence is his knowledge of the Elder Dragons, referring to them as "the life force of this world". It wasn't really common knowledge that killing dragons was a bad idea at this point. Again I know there's basically no evidence for it and it's completely senseless, but it would make for such a good story. I think going out of their way to end that mystery was one of the worst decisions the writers have ever made. Ooo maybe the diary was a lie! I'm gonna hold on to that. Please don't judge my state of denial.

    Let’s wait and see. Kralkatorrik did cry out for his mother upon his death at the end of season 4.

    Which may mean he killed his mother and replaced her or there could be a larger Elder Dragon that birthed the other six.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    Unfortunately, that victory made the Pact overconfident. They tried to Leeroy Jenkins Mordremoth head on, neglecting the facts that Mordremoth was NOT weakened like Zhaitan, and he had at least some inside help and advance knowledge, as demonstrated by the attacks on the Zephyrites and Pale Tree. The predictable result was that Mordremoth literally swatted the Pact fleet out of the sky with the help of the corrupted Sylvari, forcing the Pact into a costly, divisive, come-from-behind campaign that made the war against Zhaitan look like a cakewalk by comparison.

    I'm not sure that was strictly overconfidence. Trahearne's strategy was based on the principle that a newly-awakened elder dragon was already in a weakened state compared to Zhaitan at the height of his power, and that newly-awakened elder dragons tend to have a particularly destructive initial expansion to claim territory and additional magic to strengthen themselves (with Rata Sum and the Grove already disturbingly close to the current front lines). His goal was to strike while Mordremoth was still fairly weak and before Mordremoth could go on the offensive.

    It turned out there was a factor he hadn't accounted for, but apart from that the strategy was largely sound. Mordremoth still being relatively weak was even demonstrated through the remnants of the Pact still being able to take him down.

    In Jormag's case... Jormag did get put back into hibernation in S3, and it's questionable whether Jormag's actually fully awake even now, or whether Jormag's in a state similar to Mordremoth in season 1. Which would explain Jormag current behaviour - Jormag knows Jormag's the underdog, but if Jormag can turn a strong military leader, or even better, the force that has already killed three Elder Dragons, that would put Jormag in a much stronger position.

    It's also possible that Jormag's limited use of magic outside the ice and persuasion spectrum could be that Jormag knows that absorbing too many forms of magic at once can be bad for a dragon's sanity. Jormag may still be a villain, but Jormag's approach would probably be compromised if Jormag went full Kralkatorrik.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2020

    @WafflingMean.4351 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Unfortunately Joko did not turn Kralkatorrik into an Elder Dragon. This is again one of those Joko Propaganda. Couple Halloween’s back we were provided a journal of Joko’s early days which show him being alive around at the time of when Mad king thorn was still living and a prince. I’ll post the link.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Private_Property_of_P.I._Joko

    Yeah I did hear about that, and it really annoys me that they decided to almost immediately end what could have been an extremely good mystery. I know it's almost certainly useless but I'll hold out the hope that the theory is somehow true. Joko mentions his mother being alive in the diary meaning he's either not a lich yet or it was something incredibly recent. But they never do specify how he became a lich. Maybe he tapped into some ancient powerful being or something that might have existed on Tyria for a long time? Or perhaps when he became a lich he was possessed by something? So in addition to himself there's some sort of inhuman being within him that predates the arrival of humans on Tyria? But that's completely ridiculous at best. The only thing that gives the theory some credence is his knowledge of the Elder Dragons, referring to them as "the life force of this world". It wasn't really common knowledge that killing dragons was a bad idea at this point. Again I know there's basically no evidence for it and it's completely senseless, but it would make for such a good story. I think going out of their way to end that mystery was one of the worst decisions the writers have ever made. Ooo maybe the diary was a lie! I'm gonna hold on to that. Please don't judge my state of denial.

    I think that you might be right about Joko's transformation into a lich being the key to understanding how to reconcile his "early" memories (i. e. when "Mother" was still alive and he was probably in his early twenties) with his "ancient" memories. Maybe you've just stumbled upon a detail associated with becoming a lich? Maybe you unlock a part of yourself that is capable of remembering your past lives? Perhaps this is why Joko knows that he's entitled to the Primeval throne?

    Look, I'm just thinking in written form here, but I have an idea: What if bloodlines function in a similar way to ley-lines? The difference would be that bloodlines represent threads within the fabric of reality, whereas ley-lines represent threads missing from it. Maybe becoming a lich allows you to tap into this, in a similar manner to the magic behind Canthan ritualism?

  • @Stephen.6312 said:
    Perhaps this is why Joko knows that he's entitled to the Primeval throne?

    I would rather lean into that being his propaganda to "validate" his rule over Elona.
    The spirits of of Last Primeval kings (and queens) have explicitelly claimed that Joko does not have any legitimate claims.

    What I find more interesting notion of implications of "what it takes to become a lich" is that out of 3 "great" liches I recall in GW2 lore while all 3 of them required gimmick to kill, one was created by dragon, and others required manipulation with soul/magic to undo.

    We defeated Vizier Khilbron by binding his soul into the soul batteries powering the barrier on the door of khomalie (I hope I didn't misspell the name xD) Joko was defeated by unbinding his magic from him by a magic eater entity. Which is kind of similar "scope" I would say. Or at least close enough.

    Now we know how khilbron became lich - he used a magical scroll, which has also sunk Orr. Now question arises - do creation of this "class" of lich require such scale of destruction as side effect? If yes - what was the destruction that he has caused? I used to have theory on it, but the joko arc of LS4 seems to be contradicting that theory.
    Theory was slightly based on mention of last queens of primeval dynasty about some of their court members betraying them essentially. The idea was that Joko could have been one of those courtiers that did so, as scarab plague was his "side effect" of becoming a lich - this would also justify how queens are so kitten sure that he has no legitimacy in his claim to their throne. But if that was the case Joko would have no need to seek the plague from the inquest. Unless the side effect was not linked at all to the source of it and Joko despite beign source had no influence on it and he lost track of the bugs when moving out to the desert. But I do not know how would this line up with his diary from halloween.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:
    What I find more interesting notion of implications of "what it takes to become a lich" is that out of 3 "great" liches I recall in GW2 lore while all 3 of them required gimmick to kill, one was created by dragon, and others required manipulation with soul/magic to undo.
    We defeated Vizier Khilbron by binding his soul into the soul batteries powering the barrier on the door of khomalie (I hope I didn't misspell the name xD) Joko was defeated by unbinding his magic from him by a magic eater entity. Which is kind of similar "scope" I would say. Or at least close enough.

    Who is the third lich?

  • @Fueki.4753 said:
    Who is the third lich?

    In the personal story there's a lich in service to Zhaitan. I think it's if you do the Sylvari storyline. The only weapon capable of harming Mazdak the Accursed (at least that the player character was able to find on short notice) was Caladbolg. Perhaps since this lich's power primarily came from Zhaitan, a weapon like Caladbolg which seems powered by the energy of a cleansed dragon champion was capable of inflicting damage through some sort of cleansing power, making Zhaitan's own corrupted death magic unable to heal up wounds this lich received?
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mazdak_the_Accursed

  • @Stephen.6312 said:
    I think that you might be right about Joko's transformation into a lich being the key to understanding how to reconcile his "early" memories (i. e. when "Mother" was still alive and he was probably in his early twenties) with his "ancient" memories. Maybe you've just stumbled upon a detail associated with becoming a lich? Maybe you unlock a part of yourself that is capable of remembering your past lives? Perhaps this is why Joko knows that he's entitled to the Primeval throne?
    Look, I'm just thinking in written form here, but I have an idea: What if bloodlines function in a similar way to ley-lines? The difference would be that bloodlines represent threads within the fabric of reality, whereas ley-lines represent threads missing from it. Maybe becoming a lich allows you to tap into this, in a similar manner to the magic behind Canthan ritualism?

    The crackpot theory I'm going to go with is either Joko had the diary planted to mislead people about his true origin, or the person we know as Palawa Ignatious Joko is not the result of just one person becoming a lich. He may have been a being that predated a person he possessed, who is probably a young prince (and likely a necromancer) called Ignatious, or "Iggy". And a result of the possession is that to an extent their identities and personalities merged. It's worth noting that we never heard Palawa Joko's middle name (as far as I know) until the 'Long Live the Lich' patch. He seemed content to refer to himself as Palawa Joko, whereas the diary suggests that in his youth, Ignatious was the preferred name. Maybe that indicates some change in identity. Regardless I'm sure this wasn't the intention of the writers and they want Joko's story done with but maybe this is a loophole for people who don't want it to be over.

  • @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:
    Now we know how khilbron became lich - he used a magical scroll, which has also sunk Orr. Now question arises - do creation of this "class" of lich require such scale of destruction as side effect? If yes - what was the destruction that he has caused? I used to have theory on it, but the joko arc of LS4 seems to be contradicting that theory.
    Theory was slightly based on mention of last queens of primeval dynasty about some of their court members betraying them essentially. The idea was that Joko could have been one of those courtiers that did so, as scarab plague was his "side effect" of becoming a lich - this would also justify how queens are so kitten sure that he has no legitimacy in his claim to their throne. But if that was the case Joko would have no need to seek the plague from the inquest. Unless the side effect was not linked at all to the source of it and Joko despite beign source had no influence on it and he lost track of the bugs when moving out to the desert. But I do not know how would this line up with his diary from halloween.

    An interesting thing about this and going off the theory I put above of Palawa Joko actually being some sort of spirit that created a lich physical form by possessing 'Ignatious', is that we do have a precedent like you say for massive disasters occurring with the creation of powerful beings like this. Khilbron becoming a lich is one, but in terms of the activities of a spirit, Shiro Tagachi is another. His presence alone was enough to create the plague in Cantha. So it stands to reason that a powerful spirit possessing a necromancer to create another lich could create something like the Scarab Plague.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @WafflingMean.4351 said:
    An interesting thing about this and going off the theory I put above of Palawa Joko actually being some sort of spirit that created a lich physical form by possessing 'Ignatious', is that we do have a precedent like you say for massive disasters occurring with the creation of powerful beings like this. Khilbron becoming a lich is one, but in terms of the activities of a spirit, Shiro Tagachi is another. His presence alone was enough to create the plague in Cantha. So it stands to reason that a powerful spirit possessing a necromancer to create another lich could create something like the Scarab Plague.

    Necromancy falls into the domains of Grenth though.
    The Jade Winds power mostly came from the immense amount of Dwayna magic Shiro stole from the emperor he killed, so the Shiro incident can't be correlated with the Lichs.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2020

    @WafflingMean.4351 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    I think that you might be right about Joko's transformation into a lich being the key to understanding how to reconcile his "early" memories (i. e. when "Mother" was still alive and he was probably in his early twenties) with his "ancient" memories. Maybe you've just stumbled upon a detail associated with becoming a lich? Maybe you unlock a part of yourself that is capable of remembering your past lives? Perhaps this is why Joko knows that he's entitled to the Primeval throne?
    Look, I'm just thinking in written form here, but I have an idea: What if bloodlines function in a similar way to ley-lines? The difference would be that bloodlines represent threads within the fabric of reality, whereas ley-lines represent threads missing from it. Maybe becoming a lich allows you to tap into this, in a similar manner to the magic behind Canthan ritualism?

    The crackpot theory I'm going to go with is either Joko had the diary planted to mislead people about his true origin, or the person we know as Palawa Ignatious Joko is not the result of just one person becoming a lich. He may have been a being that predated a person he possessed, who is probably a young prince (and likely a necromancer) called Ignatious, or "Iggy". And a result of the possession is that to an extent their identities and personalities merged. It's worth noting that we never heard Palawa Joko's middle name (as far as I know) until the 'Long Live the Lich' patch. He seemed content to refer to himself as Palawa Joko, whereas the diary suggests that in his youth, Ignatious was the preferred name. Maybe that indicates some change in identity. Regardless I'm sure this wasn't the intention of the writers and they want Joko's story done with but maybe this is a loophole for people who don't want it to be over.

    I'll take your theory onboard. It's stellar. Here's how I see it: the possession you think may be taking place runs in the family, through the bloodline. But "Iggy" was prepared to do more than entertain the spirit that we call Palawa Joko; he was willing to allow Palawa to possess him.

    The thing about Iggy's mother is intriguing. The wiki writer thinks that Iggy was the son of an Elonian diplomat. But what if Iggy's mother was more than that? What if she was a member of the Primeval royal house and Iggy didn't assume titles of royalty until his mother passed? Maybe, in his eyes, she was the rightful Primeval monarch whilst she lived, regardless of whether she even realized this or ever openly acknowledged it. We know that the Primeval throne was the seat of both kings and queens, so Joko's deference to his mother would make sense from that perspective.

    Curiously, Iggy says nothing about his mother anywhere else. It might be a sore point for him. I wonder what would happen if you made fun of her memory around him?

    Things would probably get personal.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @WafflingMean.4351 said:
    An interesting thing about this and going off the theory I put above of Palawa Joko actually being some sort of spirit that created a lich physical form by possessing 'Ignatious', is that we do have a precedent like you say for massive disasters occurring with the creation of powerful beings like this. Khilbron becoming a lich is one, but in terms of the activities of a spirit, Shiro Tagachi is another. His presence alone was enough to create the plague in Cantha. So it stands to reason that a powerful spirit possessing a necromancer to create another lich could create something like the Scarab Plague.

    Necromancy falls into the domains of Grenth though.
    The Jade Winds power mostly came from the immense amount of Dwayna magic Shiro stole from the emperor he killed, so the Shiro incident can't be correlated with the Lichs.

    Granted, the Jade Wind likely had something to do with Dwayna. But we mustn't forget the Jade Sea, which clearly has something to do with Abaddon. I think WafflingMean.4351's point is that Abaddon seems to be a recurring theme whenever we learn about the birth of liches, or powerful entities who hold lich-like power.

    Palawa Joko made a Bone Palace in the Desolation, close to the Mouth of Torment, the point at which a massive explosion rocked Elona - an explosion that marked the climax of the Great Battle at the Gates of Heaven and permanently changed the surrounding landscape. This cannot be a coincidence.

    Why would Palawa feel the need to go in there? Why build a Bone Palace there? What forces were driving him?

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @WafflingMean.4351 said:
    An interesting thing about this and going off the theory I put above of Palawa Joko actually being some sort of spirit that created a lich physical form by possessing 'Ignatious', is that we do have a precedent like you say for massive disasters occurring with the creation of powerful beings like this. Khilbron becoming a lich is one, but in terms of the activities of a spirit, Shiro Tagachi is another. His presence alone was enough to create the plague in Cantha. So it stands to reason that a powerful spirit possessing a necromancer to create another lich could create something like the Scarab Plague.

    Necromancy falls into the domains of Grenth though.
    The Jade Winds power mostly came from the immense amount of Dwayna magic Shiro stole from the emperor he killed, so the Shiro incident can't be correlated with the Lichs.

    Granted, the Jade Wind likely had something to do with Dwayna. But we mustn't forget the Jade Sea, which clearly has something to do with Abaddon. I think WafflingMean.4351's point is that Abaddon seems to be a recurring theme whenever we learn about the birth of liches, or powerful entities who hold liche-like power.

    Palawa Joko made a Bone Palace in the Desolation, close to the Mouth of Torment, the point at which a massive explosion rocked Elona - an explosion that marked the climax of the Great Battle at the Gates of Heaven and permanently changed the surrounding landscape. This cannot be a coincidence.

    Why would Palawa feel the need to go in there? Why build a Bone Palace there? What forces were driving him?

    Abaddon was dead-dead by the time the palace was built though.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    Abaddon was dead-dead by the time the palace was built though.

    Afaik, Abaddon had been confined to the Realm of Torment between (presumably) 0BE and 1075AE. Don't quote me on that, though.

    Palawa Joko built his Bone Palace in 757AE, if memory serves correctly.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    Abaddon was dead-dead by the time the palace was built though.

    Afaik, Abaddon had been confined to the Realm of Torment between (presumably) 0BE and 1075AE. Don't quote me on that, though.

    Palawa Joko built his Bone Palace in 757AE, if memory serves correctly.

    Most likely a good place to build an army away from prying eyes as no one could travel across the sulphurous wastes, unless you were undead or inside a wurm. The wastes have a natural defensive ability of keeping people out. The reason for the wastes is because of that great battle between the gods.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @WafflingMean.4351 said:
    An interesting thing about this and going off the theory I put above of Palawa Joko actually being some sort of spirit that created a lich physical form by possessing 'Ignatious', is that we do have a precedent like you say for massive disasters occurring with the creation of powerful beings like this. Khilbron becoming a lich is one, but in terms of the activities of a spirit, Shiro Tagachi is another. His presence alone was enough to create the plague in Cantha. So it stands to reason that a powerful spirit possessing a necromancer to create another lich could create something like the Scarab Plague.

    Necromancy falls into the domains of Grenth though.
    The Jade Winds power mostly came from the immense amount of Dwayna magic Shiro stole from the emperor he killed, so the Shiro incident can't be correlated with the Lichs.

    Granted, the Jade Wind likely had something to do with Dwayna. But we mustn't forget the Jade Sea, which clearly has something to do with Abaddon. I think WafflingMean.4351's point is that Abaddon seems to be a recurring theme whenever we learn about the birth of liches, or powerful entities who hold liche-like power.

    Abaddon is the god of secrets after all, so he most likely knows an assortment of taboo and forbidden magics and enchantments.

    The Jade Wind must be using some form of divine/ god magic, probably originating from Dwayna and somehow perverted by Shiro.

  • sarkysek.1085sarkysek.1085 Member ✭✭✭

    @Karkara.9067 said:
    I read no so long ago a discussion about the death of almorra and that she may still have a part in the story, and it have come to mind something, Kralkatorrik have absorbed some of zhaitan and mordremoth's power's, so its easy to assume so did the other dragons.

    We cannot assume that the others aren't as powerfull as kralk even though he got balthazars powers, and because of that also got residual magic energy from both the defeated elder dragons up to that point, now kralk's powers where completely absorbed by aurene, so in this case his powers where not transferred to the others.

    What we can assume of this is that the abillity that jormag have shown to reanimate dead people (like she did in episode 1) is not a jormag power but an absorbed zhaitan power, (and in that case almorra might as well come back as an jormag zombie), after mordre death Jormag mind powers might have increased (since mordre was the mind dragon), and that may explain why she could influence other people than her fanatics (even the char miles away).

    The timeframe is also good since kralk was the most powerful after absorbing balthazar, jormag just waited his death to act. (Since she was the only other awaked that we know)

    That also may help with primordus, and the DSD character development since they may be able to use this powers to be more complex villains.

    You're using the wrong pronoun. Jormag is nonbinary. They/them instead of gender specific pronoun.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @WafflingMean.4351 said:
    An interesting thing about this and going off the theory I put above of Palawa Joko actually being some sort of spirit that created a lich physical form by possessing 'Ignatious', is that we do have a precedent like you say for massive disasters occurring with the creation of powerful beings like this. Khilbron becoming a lich is one, but in terms of the activities of a spirit, Shiro Tagachi is another. His presence alone was enough to create the plague in Cantha. So it stands to reason that a powerful spirit possessing a necromancer to create another lich could create something like the Scarab Plague.

    Necromancy falls into the domains of Grenth though.
    The Jade Winds power mostly came from the immense amount of Dwayna magic Shiro stole from the emperor he killed, so the Shiro incident can't be correlated with the Lichs.

    Granted, the Jade Wind likely had something to do with Dwayna. But we mustn't forget the Jade Sea, which clearly has something to do with Abaddon. I think WafflingMean.4351's point is that Abaddon seems to be a recurring theme whenever we learn about the birth of liches, or powerful entities who hold liche-like power.

    Abaddon is the god of secrets after all, so he most likely knows an assortment of taboo and forbidden magics and enchantments.

    I think that you've hit the nail on the head there.

    The Jade Wind must be using some form of divine/ god magic, probably originating from Dwayna and somehow perverted by Shiro.

    I have a theory about that. I'm working on it. I guess now is as good a time as ever to draft it.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    The Jade Wind must be using some form of divine/ god magic, probably originating from Dwayna and somehow perverted by Shiro.

    According to An Empire Divided that is exactly the case. Dwayna's magic - originally intended to help the year's harvest - was absorbed by Shiro through the study and use of dark rituals, and he utilized that magic, altered by said dark rituals, upon his death to cause the Jade Wind.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @WafflingMean.4351 said:
    The reason she's so much smaller may also simply be because she is still way younger than the other Elder Dragons. We don't know the Deep Sea Dragon's power level, but from a brute force standpoint Aurene is stronger than Jormag and Primordus. But she is only a few years old, and they are both at least 10,000 years old.

    We don't know that Aurene is actually stronger than any of the full grown EDs yet.

    Just judging by the size of Primordus' head alone in LS3E5, and assuming he has a relatively "normal" draconic body structure attached to it, Primordus is by far the largest of the EDs that we've seen thus far. And given the solid, concrete, MASSIVE basis of his power -- the earth and fire of the planet Tyria itself -- it's also reasonable to assume that he is one of the most powerful EDs. As opposed to the more abstract realms that other EDs govern. Jormag whispering to people? Zhaitan raising dead bodies? Small timers. Go read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1923_Great_Kantō_earthquake -- That's what we have to look forward to from Primordus. Be afraid; be very afraid...