We need Empty Vessel back. — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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We need Empty Vessel back.

Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

Rev doesn't even have the capability to field alot of CCs to use the new Contained Temper.

On the flip side, losing Empty Vessel is hurting Rev in all game modes.
I just got CC chained by 3 Icebrood.

Imagine that.

If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

Comments

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would request instead from ANet to reduce the cost of the Jalis breakstun (or to move it to Forced Engagement and change how the skill works) and to add a breakstun to the Ventari legend. I'm having little problem dealing with chainstuns with Glint + Mallyx using the same PvE build in PvP for two months, and now that every class has longer cooldowns in the cc skills and they do 0 direct damage is easier than ever...

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    I would also want to mention something else in this same post.

    Energy.

    Energy is Revenant's sole resource used to fuel everything.

    But why on earth is it that Revenant is the only class that can put all their skills on cooldown just by pressing one button?

    Now that they increased the cost of Riposting Shadows, and removed Empty Vessel, breaking a stun costs all our Energy in pvp and wvw.

    Anet needs to seriously give every Legend a cheap Stunbreak.

    Even 30 Energy on Mallyx is painful to use.
    Jalis' cost 50 Energy.
    Shiro costs 30 Energy in PvE, 40 in PvP
    Ventari doesn't even have a stunbreak (LOL)

    Rite of the Great Dwarf has been 40 energy for a while, and now that there's the trait that gives you stability on breakstun, you might even be able to finish the Rite before getting CC'd again.

    Haven't experimented yet with rev in the new Empty Vessel-less world, but Jalis's at least seems to be better off than you think.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's not empty vessel, it's shiro RS costing 40e.

    Devestation/Retribution Shiro/Glint has always been playable despite not using EV.

    The issue is that you simply will rarely have that 40e unless you are either A: Not casting skills at all or B: just switched to Shiro in which case you now have 10e left gg.

    I warned that it was a big overnerf and now that it is here it's just as much of an overnerf as predicted. Anyone who loses to shiro/glint at this point got outplayed.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    I would also want to mention something else in this same post.

    Energy.

    Energy is Revenant's sole resource used to fuel everything.

    But why on earth is it that Revenant is the only class that can put all their skills on cooldown just by pressing one button?

    Now that they increased the cost of Riposting Shadows, and removed Empty Vessel, breaking a stun costs all our Energy in pvp and wvw.

    Anet needs to seriously give every Legend a cheap Stunbreak.

    Even 30 Energy on Mallyx is painful to use.
    Jalis' cost 50 Energy.
    Shiro costs 30 Energy in PvE, 40 in PvP
    Ventari doesn't even have a stunbreak (LOL)

    Rite of the Great Dwarf has been 40 energy for a while, and now that there's the trait that gives you stability on breakstun, you might even be able to finish the Rite before getting CC'd again.

    Haven't experimented yet with rev in the new Empty Vessel-less world, but Jalis's at least seems to be better off than you think.

    I am possibly one of the best Jalis Revenants in the game.

    Do you want to know the likelihood that I will go an entire ranked match without casting RotGD a single time?

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:

    Do you want to know the likelihood that I will go an entire ranked match without casting RotGD a single time?

    There's also this thing where RotGD has a CAST TIME
    A Stunbreak with a cast time is just useless.

    It could cost literally nothing and still be useless because people who usually drop CC has some follow up CC or other players are also laying down CC.
    If yur lying on the ground with no Stability or anything, this is gonna get interrupted as well.

    A Stunbreak with a cast time which has a cover (Stability, evade frames, block frames, invul frames) is not useless. After all, the Shiro stunbreak everyone is so attracted to has a cast time, it's just that the cast time is protected by an evade. The new trait makes it so that all the stunbreaks now also provide protection against restunning, if you take the trait.

    RotGD as a stunbreak got improved. The problem is that the amount of CC hasn't been reduced as much as advertised, and the reduction of anti-CC available through the removal of Empty Vessel and Retribution's stab-on-evade as well as the increase in the cost of Riposting Shadows has made revenant more of a bowling pin pretty much whatever build you run. Glaring Resolve makes RotGD and Pain Absorption more practical to use as stunbreaks, but does not compensate for the CC protection that's been lost.

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:
    Nope, we don't need Empty Vessel, we need lower Energy costs.

    Jalis' _(interruptable) Elite Stunbreak costs 40 Energy.

    Shiro's dodge Stunbreak costs 40 energy.

    Ventari doesn't have a Stunbreak.

    Shiro's whole utility bar costs 5+35+40+50=130 Energy (+upkeep)

    Why? Because his utilities are overloaded.

    For me (competitively) 40 Energy for a Utility Stunbreak while Revenant gets 50 Energy on Legend Swap is a joke.

    Same with Ventari - removing any way if stunbreaking kills the legend competitively.

    This in all honesty.

    “Be like water”-Bruce Lee

  • Jthug.9506Jthug.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    Yup, even the Mallyx and Kalla stun breaks aren't cheap enough to be reliably available. And idk about anyone else but between warriors and rangers it feels like a permastun fest in a lot of matches in pvp now.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    We do need it back, but anyone who despises rev will say "nah its fine". We are pretty hated within the playerbase it seems... right up there with thief and mess for some ungodly reason.

  • meri.9187meri.9187 Member ✭✭✭

    Looking back two weeks after the patch when some stuff has had time to settle... this is simply not happening because it was the cheapest and easiest stunbreak in the game, and would far outpace what other classes have. I'm as frustrated as everyone else from getting CC chained, but the solution can't be to give Empty Vessel back.

    That said, Rev did get hit extremely hard compared to other classes in terms of stunbreaks being nerfed, and it's inordinately easy to lock down a rev compared to before. With Full Counter still on a 8.75s cooldown and Magebane Tether on a 12s cooldown just for an example, the overnerfing of stunbreaks can be put into perspective.

    Riposting Shadows was a massive overnerf, 40 energy is far too much. Rather keep it at 30 energy and remove the fury, or just put it at 35 energy.

    Gaze of Darkness shouldn't be 25 seconds, either. Revert it to 20 seconds.

    good lord i am absolute trash at this video game

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ventusthunder.5067 said:
    Looking back two weeks after the patch when some stuff has had time to settle... this is simply not happening because it was the cheapest and easiest stunbreak in the game, and would far outpace what other classes have. I'm as frustrated as everyone else from getting CC chained, but the solution can't be to give Empty Vessel back.

    That said, Rev did get hit extremely hard compared to other classes in terms of stunbreaks being nerfed, and it's inordinately easy to lock down a rev compared to before. With Full Counter still on a 8.75s cooldown and Magebane Tether on a 12s cooldown just for an example, the overnerfing of stunbreaks can be put into perspective.

    Riposting Shadows was a massive overnerf, 40 energy is far too much. Rather keep it at 30 energy and remove the fury, or just put it at 35 energy.

    Gaze of Darkness shouldn't be 25 seconds, either. Revert it to 20 seconds.

    They wont compensate us so why not just give it back? Its a stunbreak not a mass of damage. Rev was all about flow and fluidity of combat, now its just "Welp they got me might as well sit back and watch." There is hardly any escape because it really makes it hard when your stun-breaks remove your ability to retaliate in any form because of the energy cost. The way I see it unless the rev jumps you with your pants down, you have an advantage over this class and it honestly does not feel good to play rev in anything outside of PvE.

    They need to rework something, anything or give us this back. I mean rangers and druids are pretty much perma-locking people down and rev is predominantly a melee class so getting into melee is a pain in the kitten now. They could give us a ranged condi-wep for our core, but that still leaves power in a horrible place and it makes invocation not being worthy of use, because everything else in it is merely multipliers that can't effect you when you're dead. There is nothing in the traitline offering you sustain or a way to help get more out of it. (at least when herald or Ren is concerned.) Core can get away with it because Jalis brings enough to the table to help with CC, but he was always able to do that and its not as though this is a new thing.

    They "Gutted" us because of the QQ and now condi rev is on the chopping block, be prepared to see that get gutted as well so they can get people to shut up. Its not about fair its about getting the QQ to stop.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    it honestly does not feel good to play rev in anything outside of PvE.

    Dude the entire reason why I decided to make this thread was because it started to affect my PvE play as well.
    I got CC chained by 3 Icebrood and it did NOT feel good.

    Alot of mobs in HoT also have heavy CC, and PoF has even worse ones with Forged doggies.

    Removal of Empty Vessel only did one thing : allow Rev builds to forgo Invocation.
    But it hurt Revenant overall because it makes gameplay too disruptive, even in PvE, especially if yu are playing Ventari.

    Ventari gets CC'd? Welp gg that's it, gotta be useless for 3 seconds now.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • meri.9187meri.9187 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    it honestly does not feel good to play rev in anything outside of PvE.

    Dude the entire reason why I decided to make this thread was because it started to affect my PvE play as well.
    I got CC chained by 3 Icebrood and it did NOT feel good.

    Alot of mobs in HoT also have heavy CC, and PoF has even worse ones with Forged doggies.

    Removal of Empty Vessel only did one thing : allow Rev builds to forgo Invocation.
    But it hurt Revenant overall because it makes gameplay too disruptive, even in PvE, especially if yu are playing Ventari.

    Ventari gets CC'd? Welp gg that's it, gotta be useless for 3 seconds now.

    I agree honestly I've been noticing this more in PvE, in comp modes it forces you to play... simultaneously more passive and smarter. And I would agree as well with Thornwolf that this is a huge problem with power rev's flow. It's probably the second biggest problem with power rev's flow now, the first one obviously being Surge.

    I believe that the only thing that the balance team CAN do at this point is to give a little back in terms of Glint/Shiro stunbreaks. Rev would still be susceptible to CC chains but perhaps not as drastically as "40 energy in Shiro when it's also your damage, and 25 seconds in Glint when it's also an offensive skill."

    I think the other point I'd like to make, and that a lot of other people share the opinion of, is that nerfing skills in terms of energy costs is lazy at best, terrible for the class at worst. And making Shiro so energy hungry is a big part of that. I'd much rather have them take the fury off of Riposting Shadows entirely and keep it at 30 energy, or make Banish Enchantment hit twice instead of thrice, but keep it at 20 energy. We've always had energy tied to both weapon and utility skills, and when everything is so energy-hungry, the class does not flow right.

    If you want to deal any damage with Shiro, you pretty much have to forgo your stunbreak entirely. I'm all for going balls deep with Impossible Odds, but the fluidity of the class is just ruined by having to sit back and wait for your energy to come back, and thus, your moment to burst. Power herald is beginning to make me feel like a cowardly WvW thief, you know the type, just sitting back and waiting for their initiative to come back.

    good lord i am absolute trash at this video game

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2020

    @ventusthunder.5067 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    it honestly does not feel good to play rev in anything outside of PvE.

    Dude the entire reason why I decided to make this thread was because it started to affect my PvE play as well.
    I got CC chained by 3 Icebrood and it did NOT feel good.

    Alot of mobs in HoT also have heavy CC, and PoF has even worse ones with Forged doggies.

    Removal of Empty Vessel only did one thing : allow Rev builds to forgo Invocation.
    But it hurt Revenant overall because it makes gameplay too disruptive, even in PvE, especially if yu are playing Ventari.

    Ventari gets CC'd? Welp gg that's it, gotta be useless for 3 seconds now.

    I agree honestly I've been noticing this more in PvE, in comp modes it forces you to play... simultaneously more passive and smarter. And I would agree as well with Thornwolf that this is a huge problem with power rev's flow. It's probably the second biggest problem with power rev's flow now, the first one obviously being Surge.

    I believe that the only thing that the balance team CAN do at this point is to give a little back in terms of Glint/Shiro stunbreaks. Rev would still be susceptible to CC chains but perhaps not as drastically as "40 energy in Shiro when it's also your damage, and 25 seconds in Glint when it's also an offensive skill."

    I think the other point I'd like to make, and that a lot of other people share the opinion of, is that nerfing skills in terms of energy costs is lazy at best, terrible for the class at worst. And making Shiro so energy hungry is a big part of that. I'd much rather have them take the fury off of Riposting Shadows entirely and keep it at 30 energy, or make Banish Enchantment hit twice instead of thrice, but keep it at 20 energy. We've always had energy tied to both weapon and utility skills, and when everything is so energy-hungry, the class does not flow right.

    If you want to deal any damage with Shiro, you pretty much have to forgo your stunbreak entirely. I'm all for going balls deep with Impossible Odds, but the fluidity of the class is just ruined by having to sit back and wait for your energy to come back, and thus, your moment to burst. Power herald is beginning to make me feel like a cowardly WvW thief, you know the type, just sitting back and waiting for their initiative to come back.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @ventusthunder.5067 said:
    Looking back two weeks after the patch when some stuff has had time to settle... this is simply not happening because it was the cheapest and easiest stunbreak in the game, and would far outpace what other classes have. I'm as frustrated as everyone else from getting CC chained, but the solution can't be to give Empty Vessel back.

    That said, Rev did get hit extremely hard compared to other classes in terms of stunbreaks being nerfed, and it's inordinately easy to lock down a rev compared to before. With Full Counter still on a 8.75s cooldown and Magebane Tether on a 12s cooldown just for an example, the overnerfing of stunbreaks can be put into perspective.

    Riposting Shadows was a massive overnerf, 40 energy is far too much. Rather keep it at 30 energy and remove the fury, or just put it at 35 energy.

    Gaze of Darkness shouldn't be 25 seconds, either. Revert it to 20 seconds.

    They wont compensate us so why not just give it back? Its a stunbreak not a mass of damage. Rev was all about flow and fluidity of combat, now its just "Welp they got me might as well sit back and watch." There is hardly any escape because it really makes it hard when your stun-breaks remove your ability to retaliate in any form because of the energy cost. The way I see it unless the rev jumps you with your pants down, you have an advantage over this class and it honestly does not feel good to play rev in anything outside of PvE.

    They need to rework something, anything or give us this back. I mean rangers and druids are pretty much perma-locking people down and rev is predominantly a melee class so getting into melee is a pain in the kitten now. They could give us a ranged condi-wep for our core, but that still leaves power in a horrible place and it makes invocation not being worthy of use, because everything else in it is merely multipliers that can't effect you when you're dead. There is nothing in the traitline offering you sustain or a way to help get more out of it. (at least when herald or Ren is concerned.) Core can get away with it because Jalis brings enough to the table to help with CC, but he was always able to do that and its not as though this is a new thing.

    They "Gutted" us because of the QQ and now condi rev is on the chopping block, be prepared to see that get gutted as well so they can get people to shut up. Its not about fair its about getting the QQ to stop.

    I agree with both of you and I've been playing the game less as rev was my main and I don't feel at this point like I want to pick a new main , learn a new class for the sake of it when I know another balance patch is around the corner waiting to mess me up. Its almost like no one plays rev up in A-nets dev department, some of the changes baffled me as our big cc skills were also big, costly and sometimes unusable skills AS IT WAS. Jade winds? Ranger interrupts. Glints wings? They dodge it. Staff 5 I kind of maybe, a bit understand but at the same time I don't feel like it was the monster people made it out to be. And now everyone is witch-hunting revenants and coming to take our condi spec away too. (Because god forbid any part of this class function, and be viable in any terms once so ever.)

    I don't know how to fix it and no CC chains should not be a thing, there should be a global cc immunity. You got caught by one cool! Now you can't be cc'd for ten seconds so you won't be ping ponged around and just beaten to death without having an retaliation you can give due to being locked down. This then means they could cull back some skills and make skills that are strictly cc breaks more useful outside of that role.

    The way it feels now is we have support rev, who is kinda trash-canned right now. We have power rev who they John Cena'd out a window and condi-rev who is preforming well but has not changed overall and is the same as it was prior to patch. The only difference is because of how condi works Mallyx is strong as heck especially with runes of tormenting, but if you take runes of tormenting away? Trash-tier in wvw/pvp.

  • Chungo.3169Chungo.3169 Member ✭✭

    I agree, the power rev does not feel good, punished by stunbreak ... it is incredible that they did not try it before doing it. I know certain things had to be addressed but ... this form was the worst possible. For me it is not the same class, without fluidity, only punished. In one fell swoop they've rendered her unusable, boring and as a pvp player I no longer enjoy playing my main class. We need you to do something soon ...

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2020

    This needs to be unearthed.
    Arenanet needs to reverse the mistake of removing it.
    One stunbreak per legend simply is far from enough with the current disgusting amount of CC.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Removal of Empty Vessel only did one thing : allow Rev builds to forgo Invocation.

    Even that is arguable, given how the ridiculous energy costs of the class pretty much makes Charged Mists nigh mandatory because 50 energy after a swap when all utilities seem to cost 30-40 energy EACH is absurd so getting that 75 energy after a swap at least lets you use 2 skills before you're dead in the water waiting on regen...

    Energy really needs a complete rework. It's ridiculously punishing when trying to do something as ludicrous as using weapons skills and a utility like can you imagine? A class being able to use their skills? How stupidly broken would that be? Oh wait...

    Throw in the fact that Glint just bypasses the entire Energy system because lel why not (Making it the dominant Legend in anything but min-max DPS Raiding where you use all of 2 utilities which is the Upkeep skills of Shiro and Kalla)

    The way Energy works really just needs to be redone. So that utility skills (Such as Stunbreaks) can be usable, without also having to cost your ability to actually attack.

    Honestly, I've been pondering Rev getting a dual resource system. Energy and Pips. Where Energy is spent by utilities and generates Pips and Pips are spent by weapon skills and generate Energy. Meaning, your usage of skills flows into one another and allows for more diverse choices based on what is needed at the time (As opposed to "You have 4 weapon skills and 4 utilities. Better pick which ONE you want to use your entire resource bar on lelelelelel")

    Cat: Meow.

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2020

    The problem is energy, namely like another post said, that you are pressing one button that costs 40 energy and now all your skills are disabled. Even in pve, where you have full control of your rotation and rarely need to use a skill in a pinch that would mess it up, rev still has to stand there spamming autos because they are out of energy 5 seconds into swapping into a Legend. And that's with using the +25 energy GM.

    Empty Vessel was a band aid, a way to ignore addressing the actual problem. When every legend has a stun break (and Ventari should get one), why is it that the class needs a 10s energy-free stun break? Well the answer is obvious, because you are usually too energy starved to use your actual stun break skills.

    Remove the energy costs from weapon skills, and remove the energy reset on swap and go from there. Balance the energy costs among the right-hand bar skills only.

    Energy is another reason why legends like Ventari are problematic. Forcing the legend swap to recover energy means that unless you have 2 legends that facilitate the same playstyle, then your build only works 50% of the time. So our specs, instead of introducing new opportunities to the class, are forced to retrace the core specs to give them a partner, like what happened with Kalla and Ventari/Mallyx.

    Rev was carried by two things that hid the real problem: Empty Vessel and Herald. EV removed stun breaks from the energy mechanic and Herald skills being resourceless removed the problem altogether. Now we lost access to the former, but the latter remains.

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2020

    Energy doesn’t need a rework it’s fine as is. It’s a l2p issue if you’re not performing well on rev in any mode

    We also don’t need empty vessel back. The class still has tons of evasive and defensive tools; use those!

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2020

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    Energy doesn’t need a rework it’s fine as is. It’s a l2p issue if you’re not performing well on rev in any mode

    We also don’t need empty vessel back. The class still has tons of evasive and defensive tools; use those!

    Rev is performing because it has Herald, which circumvents the whole energy mechanic. You are wilfully ignorant if you can't see that Herald is carrying the class atm.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    We also don’t need empty vessel back. The class still has tons of evasive and defensive tools; use those!

    Rev is performing because it has Herald, which circumvents the whole energy mechanic. You are wilfully ignorant if you can't see that Herald is carrying the class atm.

    Untrue.

    Core Rev has been performing pretty well due to Ancient Echo and Renegade has always been consistent with Charged Mists.

    I would still like Energy costs looked at though.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 17, 2020

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    Energy doesn’t need a rework it’s fine as is. It’s a l2p issue if you’re not performing well on rev in any mode

    We also don’t need empty vessel back. The class still has tons of evasive and defensive tools; use those!

    Rev is performing because it has Herald, which circumvents the whole energy mechanic. You are wilfully ignorant if you can't see that Herald is carrying the class atm.

    Herald is certainly not “carrying the class” in PvE. Renegade is straight up better there for Condi, Power, and Heal/Support. So your blanket statement that Rev is “performing well (in all modes) because of Herald” is wrong just on that basis alone.

    In PvP/WvW Herald performs better in many situations for three main reasons:

    1) Infuse Light is the best heal Rev has. Period. Followed closely by Breakrazor/Soulcleave.

    2) Draconic Echo and Easy Access to Boons. Herald has high access to consistent boons that other Rev specs struggle to maintain for large, consistent periods of time. Echo is especially potent in WvW where it provides tons of boons for 10 people easily. If Echo didn’t exist you’d see more Revs running Mallyx/Jalis in WvW for more specific support instead of Glint.

    3) Literally all of Glint’s skills are useful and strong in their own right. Yes, the lower energy usage factors into their usability, so you’re partially correct about that, but even then their active effects are all some of the most powerful in Rev’s entire kit. Infuse Light has already been mentioned, but look at things like Mallyx FoN, Gaze of Darkness, etc. and even if these skills had energy costs they’d still be incredibly potent regardless.

    Lastly, Renegade currently performs well in PvP. Like “wins a Monthly At” level of well. And that’s a Rev spec that clearly isn’t being “carried by Herald” nor is having issues with the energy system thanks to how strong Charged Mists can be.

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    We also don’t need empty vessel back. The class still has tons of evasive and defensive tools; use those!

    Rev is performing because it has Herald, which circumvents the whole energy mechanic. You are wilfully ignorant if you can't see that Herald is carrying the class atm.

    Untrue.

    Core Rev has been performing pretty well due to Ancient Echo and Renegade has always been consistent with Charged Mists.

    I would still like Energy costs looked at though.

    Yes, like I said, Ancient Echo was one of the crutches, as it operated outside of the energy mechanic. And if you can't see the problem with Charged Mists being nearly mandatory, I don't know what to say.

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    Energy doesn’t need a rework it’s fine as is. It’s a l2p issue if you’re not performing well on rev in any mode

    We also don’t need empty vessel back. The class still has tons of evasive and defensive tools; use those!

    Rev is performing because it has Herald, which circumvents the whole energy mechanic. You are wilfully ignorant if you can't see that Herald is carrying the class atm.

    Herald is certainly not “carrying the class” in PvE. Renegade is straight up better there for Condi, Power, and Heal/Support. So your blanket statement that Rev is “performing well (in all modes) because of Herald” is wrong just on that basis alone.

    In PvP/WvW Herald performs better in many situations for three main reasons:

    1) Infuse Light is the best heal Rev has. Period. Followed closely by Breakrazor/Soulcleave.

    2) Draconic Echo and Easy Access to Boons. Herald has high access to consistent boons that other Rev specs struggle to maintain for large, consistent periods of time. Echo is especially potent in WvW where it provides tons of boons for 10 people easily. If Echo didn’t exist you’d see more Revs running Mallyx/Jalis in WvW for more specific support instead of Glint.

    3) Literally all of Glint’s skills are useful and strong in their own right. Yes, the lower energy usage factors into their usability, so you’re partially correct about that, but even then their active effects are all some of the most powerful in Rev’s entire kit. Infuse Light has already been mentioned, but look at things like Mallyx FoN, Gaze of Darkness, etc. and even if these skills had energy costs they’d still be incredibly potent regardless.

    Lastly, Renegade currently performs well in PvP. Like “wins a Monthly At” level of well. And that’s a Rev spec that clearly isn’t being “carried by Herald” nor is having issues with the energy system thanks to how strong Charged Mists can be.

    PvE is another matter entirely because you just design a rotation around energy costs and nothing will interfere with it 99% of the time. Oh, and of course, can't forget Charged Mists if you are playing Kalla.

    And even under these condition, what do we end up with? Spamming autos for multiple seconds because you use all your energy 5 seconds into your legend swap. Even with Charged Mists. You know those breakbars people need to work together to break? Not you, if you use your CC, you are now 30 energy down and have ruined your whole rotation.

    And that's without even addressing the other problems I mentioned, that the forced legend swap leads to copypaste legends. What did Kalla actually give the class? Literally nothing, she is condi to match Mallyx and heal+alacrity to match Ventari. And now we need another power legend to match Shiro.

    So yes, the energy mechanic "works". Just like mesmer's phantasms "worked". Yet mesmer was reworked because it lead to an extremely unfun playstyle where once you had your 3 phantasms up, you couldn't use your shatters and stood there spamming autos. Well, it's the same with revenant, you are limited to 3-4 skills, you are spamming autos because your energy evaporates in seconds, and using anything outside the rotation is a major dps loss. Or you are already too low on energy in which case you don't even get a choice. Sure, the other classes have a rotation of a few select skills, but they can actually use the rest of their bars when needed.

    After Empty Vessel, Herald and Charged Mists, can't wait to see what new band aid the third expansion will bring, so we can all continue to pretend that energy is fine.

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    Energy doesn’t need a rework it’s fine as is. It’s a l2p issue if you’re not performing well on rev in any mode

    We also don’t need empty vessel back. The class still has tons of evasive and defensive tools; use those!

    Rev is performing because it has Herald, which circumvents the whole energy mechanic. You are wilfully ignorant if you can't see that Herald is carrying the class atm.

    Herald is certainly not “carrying the class” in PvE. Renegade is straight up better there for Condi, Power, and Heal/Support. So your blanket statement that Rev is “performing well (in all modes) because of Herald” is wrong just on that basis alone.

    In PvP/WvW Herald performs better in many situations for three main reasons:

    1) Infuse Light is the best heal Rev has. Period. Followed closely by Breakrazor/Soulcleave.

    2) Draconic Echo and Easy Access to Boons. Herald has high access to consistent boons that other Rev specs struggle to maintain for large, consistent periods of time. Echo is especially potent in WvW where it provides tons of boons for 10 people easily. If Echo didn’t exist you’d see more Revs running Mallyx/Jalis in WvW for more specific support instead of Glint.

    3) Literally all of Glint’s skills are useful and strong in their own right. Yes, the lower energy usage factors into their usability, so you’re partially correct about that, but even then their active effects are all some of the most powerful in Rev’s entire kit. Infuse Light has already been mentioned, but look at things like Mallyx FoN, Gaze of Darkness, etc. and even if these skills had energy costs they’d still be incredibly potent regardless.

    Lastly, Renegade currently performs well in PvP. Like “wins a Monthly At” level of well. And that’s a Rev spec that clearly isn’t being “carried by Herald” nor is having issues with the energy system thanks to how strong Charged Mists can be.

    PvE is another matter entirely because you just design a rotation around energy costs and nothing will interfere with it 99% of the time. Oh, and of course, can't forget Charged Mists if you are playing Kalla.

    And even under these condition, what do we end up with? Spamming autos for multiple seconds because you use all your energy 5 seconds into your legend swap. Even with Charged Mists. You know those breakbars people need to work together to break? Not you, if you use your CC, you are now 30 energy down and have ruined your whole rotation.

    Interesting that you didn't link the condi rev build since it's considerably more complicated and goes directly against your argument. Also you can use CC skills in Rev if you omit low DPS parts of your rotation. For example, using Darkrazor instead of Icerazor + 10 energy. Super easy if you plan for it in advance and it doesn't ruin your whole rotation or lower your damage by much at all. Also Rev comes with built in CCs in their kit, unlike some other classes which sometimes have to drop utilities or weapons to "get more CC." This isn't the case for Rev in most scenarios. Other classes also lose damage by taking the time to CC, just as Rev does. Rev also has the added bonus of being able to start certain encounters and phases with 100 energy for higher initial dps burst, unlike other classes.

    Rev is also not the only class that uses a fair amount of autoattacks either. Not every build has to have a piano rotation like Engi/Ele/cRev.

    Charged Mists is also fine. It's not required on Herald builds (actually counter-intuitive on those generally) and is optional on Core, since Ancient Echo provides decent energy spikes as is. Also not all Grandmasters need to be equally viable, as long as they're useful in some situations.

    And that's without even addressing the other problems I mentioned, that the forced legend swap leads to copypaste legends. What did Kalla actually give the class? Literally nothing, she is condi to match Mallyx and heal+alacrity to match Ventari. And now we need another power legend to match Shiro.

    The class is built around being copy paste; that won't change without a huge overhaul of the entire class, which is incredibly unlikely. Personally, I don't want that to happen either necessarily since I'm happy with how it is now.

    Renegade offers support, higher condi and power dps, better heals, adds more AoE, and ranged condi. All of these things were not available on Core or Herald. So Renegade offers a lot, even if you want to overlook its contributions.

    So yes, the energy mechanic "works". Just like mesmer's phantasms "worked". Yet mesmer was reworked because it lead to an extremely unfun playstyle where once you had your 3 phantasms up, you couldn't use your shatters and stood there spamming autos. Well, it's the same with revenant, you are limited to 3-4 skills, you are spamming autos because your energy evaporates in seconds, and using anything outside the rotation is a major dps loss. Or you are already too low on energy in which case you don't even get a choice. Sure, the other classes have a rotation of a few select skills, but they can actually use the rest of their bars when needed.

    Mesmer wasn't changed because it was "unfun," but because the mechanics were brain dead and passive for dps (high/good dps for little effort) and didn't let you use your profession mechanic without destroying (literally destroying) your dps (all stated by Anet). It was also completely counter-intuitive for Mirage since you couldn't use phantasms and also have clones. And since mirage is completely focused on clones that became a major issue.

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2020

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    Energy doesn’t need a rework it’s fine as is. It’s a l2p issue if you’re not performing well on rev in any mode

    We also don’t need empty vessel back. The class still has tons of evasive and defensive tools; use those!

    Rev is performing because it has Herald, which circumvents the whole energy mechanic. You are wilfully ignorant if you can't see that Herald is carrying the class atm.

    Herald is certainly not “carrying the class” in PvE. Renegade is straight up better there for Condi, Power, and Heal/Support. So your blanket statement that Rev is “performing well (in all modes) because of Herald” is wrong just on that basis alone.

    In PvP/WvW Herald performs better in many situations for three main reasons:

    1) Infuse Light is the best heal Rev has. Period. Followed closely by Breakrazor/Soulcleave.

    2) Draconic Echo and Easy Access to Boons. Herald has high access to consistent boons that other Rev specs struggle to maintain for large, consistent periods of time. Echo is especially potent in WvW where it provides tons of boons for 10 people easily. If Echo didn’t exist you’d see more Revs running Mallyx/Jalis in WvW for more specific support instead of Glint.

    3) Literally all of Glint’s skills are useful and strong in their own right. Yes, the lower energy usage factors into their usability, so you’re partially correct about that, but even then their active effects are all some of the most powerful in Rev’s entire kit. Infuse Light has already been mentioned, but look at things like Mallyx FoN, Gaze of Darkness, etc. and even if these skills had energy costs they’d still be incredibly potent regardless.

    Lastly, Renegade currently performs well in PvP. Like “wins a Monthly At” level of well. And that’s a Rev spec that clearly isn’t being “carried by Herald” nor is having issues with the energy system thanks to how strong Charged Mists can be.

    PvE is another matter entirely because you just design a rotation around energy costs and nothing will interfere with it 99% of the time. Oh, and of course, can't forget Charged Mists if you are playing Kalla.

    And even under these condition, what do we end up with? Spamming autos for multiple seconds because you use all your energy 5 seconds into your legend swap. Even with Charged Mists. You know those breakbars people need to work together to break? Not you, if you use your CC, you are now 30 energy down and have ruined your whole rotation.

    Interesting that you didn't link the condi rev build since it's considerably more complicated and goes directly against your argument. Also you can use CC skills in Rev if you omit low DPS parts of your rotation. For example, using Darkrazor instead of Icerazor + 10 energy. Super easy if you plan for it in advance and it doesn't ruin your whole rotation or lower your damage by much at all. Also Rev comes with built in CCs in their kit, unlike some other classes which sometimes have to drop utilities or weapons to "get more CC." This isn't the case for Rev in most scenarios. Other classes also lose damage by taking the time to CC, just as Rev does. Rev also has the added bonus of being able to start certain encounters and phases with 100 energy for higher initial dps burst, unlike other classes.

    Everyone has to take time to CC, it's not like Rev's CC are instant cast. But while other classes only lose the cast time, Rev also loses a heap of energy. And yes, if you plan in advance, you can minimise the losses, but that is not possible for every encounter, and it entirely depends on how energy you have left at the time and what legend you are on at the time.

    There are only a couple of builds that can't sacrifice a single utility or elite slot for CC. And the supports are usually expected to take the breakbars to minimise dps loss from the damage dealers, but even as a support Renegade, you are just as energy constricted, so there's a good chance you won't be able to contribute, or drop alacrity uptime to do so.

    Charged Mists is also fine. It's not required on Herald builds (actually counter-intuitive on those generally) and is optional on Core, since Ancient Echo provides decent energy spikes as is. Also not all Grandmasters need to be equally viable, as long as they're useful in some situations.

    Yes, you can forego Charged Mists when you pick the bigger band aid called Herald. As I said, both exist for the same reason, to fix the holes of the energy mechanic.

    The class is built around being copy paste; that won't change without a huge overhaul of the entire class, which is incredibly unlikely. Personally, I don't want that to happen either necessarily since I'm happy with how it is now.

    [Citation Needed]

    The class was designed around dedicated legends. They looked at the core roles a build could provide and turned them into legends. Shiro for power dps, Mallyx for condi dps, Ventari for heals, Jalis for tankiness and utility and Glint for boon support. So, it's the exact opposite, the legends were designed to be as distinct as possible.

    Then you have the huge wrench called energy dropped in that design. You are forced to swap, because energy regen and costs are designed around that 50 reset. Suddenly, instead of dedicated builds, you have supports being forced to swap to damage legends and vice-versa. This is what forces the copypaste legends, the fact that you are forced to swap. If energy was designed in a way that you could stay on a legend as long as needed, we wouldn't have this issue.

    And it doesn't take a huge overhaul, just removing the energy costs from weapon skills and removing the energy reset on swap. It's not like Rev's weapon skills are any stronger or have lower cooldowns than other professions' skills, so the added cost is arbitrary.

    Renegade offers support, higher condi and power dps, better heals, adds more AoE, and ranged condi. All of these things were not available on Core or Herald. So Renegade offers a lot, even if you want to overlook its contributions.

    I'm not saying Renegade doesn't offer anything useful, I'm saying it doesn't offer anything unique.

    Literally all the things you mentioned, except ranged condi access (and even then mace had a 1200 skill) existed in core rev, between Mallyx and Ventari. The reason Kalla was needed was because you had to swap to something, and when you did, there was nothing that complemented either of those legends.

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2020

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    Energy doesn’t need a rework it’s fine as is. It’s a l2p issue if you’re not performing well on rev in any mode

    We also don’t need empty vessel back. The class still has tons of evasive and defensive tools; use those!

    Rev is performing because it has Herald, which circumvents the whole energy mechanic. You are wilfully ignorant if you can't see that Herald is carrying the class atm.

    Herald is certainly not “carrying the class” in PvE. Renegade is straight up better there for Condi, Power, and Heal/Support. So your blanket statement that Rev is “performing well (in all modes) because of Herald” is wrong just on that basis alone.

    In PvP/WvW Herald performs better in many situations for three main reasons:

    1) Infuse Light is the best heal Rev has. Period. Followed closely by Breakrazor/Soulcleave.

    2) Draconic Echo and Easy Access to Boons. Herald has high access to consistent boons that other Rev specs struggle to maintain for large, consistent periods of time. Echo is especially potent in WvW where it provides tons of boons for 10 people easily. If Echo didn’t exist you’d see more Revs running Mallyx/Jalis in WvW for more specific support instead of Glint.

    3) Literally all of Glint’s skills are useful and strong in their own right. Yes, the lower energy usage factors into their usability, so you’re partially correct about that, but even then their active effects are all some of the most powerful in Rev’s entire kit. Infuse Light has already been mentioned, but look at things like Mallyx FoN, Gaze of Darkness, etc. and even if these skills had energy costs they’d still be incredibly potent regardless.

    Lastly, Renegade currently performs well in PvP. Like “wins a Monthly At” level of well. And that’s a Rev spec that clearly isn’t being “carried by Herald” nor is having issues with the energy system thanks to how strong Charged Mists can be.

    PvE is another matter entirely because you just design a rotation around energy costs and nothing will interfere with it 99% of the time. Oh, and of course, can't forget Charged Mists if you are playing Kalla.

    And even under these condition, what do we end up with? Spamming autos for multiple seconds because you use all your energy 5 seconds into your legend swap. Even with Charged Mists. You know those breakbars people need to work together to break? Not you, if you use your CC, you are now 30 energy down and have ruined your whole rotation.

    Interesting that you didn't link the condi rev build since it's considerably more complicated and goes directly against your argument. Also you can use CC skills in Rev if you omit low DPS parts of your rotation. For example, using Darkrazor instead of Icerazor + 10 energy. Super easy if you plan for it in advance and it doesn't ruin your whole rotation or lower your damage by much at all. Also Rev comes with built in CCs in their kit, unlike some other classes which sometimes have to drop utilities or weapons to "get more CC." This isn't the case for Rev in most scenarios. Other classes also lose damage by taking the time to CC, just as Rev does. Rev also has the added bonus of being able to start certain encounters and phases with 100 energy for higher initial dps burst, unlike other classes.

    Everyone has to take time to CC, it's not like Rev's CC are instant cast. But while other classes only lose the cast time, Rev also loses a heap of energy. And yes, if you plan in advance, you can minimise the losses, but that is not possible for every encounter, and it entirely depends on how energy you have left at the time and what legend you are on at the time.
    There are only a couple of builds that can't sacrifice a single utility or elite slot for CC.

    It's absolutely possible for every encounter; you just need to know the encounter well. Other classes also have the issue of not necessarily being in the right weapon set, etc. That's not just exclusive to Rev. Elementalist for example has 4 attunements and can only be in 1 (or partially 2 with Weaver) of them at a time. Engineer rotates through kits. etc. etc. Druid might have already blown some CC for extra healing, etc. All classes have their resources to manage and their moments when they can't CC or CC well.

    As mentioned Rev at least generally doesn't drop damaging utilities to be able to access theirs. And if a class is dropping an entire utility for CC then they are dropping damage, even if only slightly. Casting Darkrazor 5 times during a fight on Renegade over Icerazor +10 energy isn't going to create a massive dps loss disparity between Rev and other classes. You're overestimating how much you actually lose when planning for it appropriately.

    And the supports are usually expected to take the breakbars to minimise dps loss from the damage dealers, but even as a support Renegade, you are just as energy constricted, so there's a good chance you won't be able to contribute, or drop alacrity uptime to do so.

    If you're unable to contribute massively to CC bars while playing Alacrigade or Heal Ren because you're worried about dropping alacrity or running out of energy then you're playing it wrong, not paying enough attention, or don't know the fights well enough. Alacrigade's entire job is support first and foremost, dps secondary. The DPS being fairly high for a support is just a plus. The focus for any Alacrigade should be on Alacrity + CC + any additional mechanics requirement > DPS. If the focus becomes too much on DPS and not the support/utility aspect then you're playing the spec with the wrong mindset. If you're surprised by a sudden CC bar or additional mechanic, then it's just a function of not knowing the fight well enough, which is fine, everyone has to start somewhere. But for an experienced Raider or Fractal player on Alacrigade there is no issue diverting resources and planning ahead. I don't have the issues you're mentioning in your above paragraph, so this really feels like an experience/skill level issue.

    Side note: Support rotations on golem are rarely ever accurate in terms of "real" scenarios and shouldn't be followed in the same way a DPS player would follow them because a support player is expected to, as you said, pick up the slack for the real dps players by doing mechanics/cc etc. It's more important to think of them as a loose adjustable guideline.

    Charged Mists is also fine. It's not required on Herald builds (actually counter-intuitive on those generally) and is optional on Core, since Ancient Echo provides decent energy spikes as is. Also not all Grandmasters need to be equally viable, as long as they're useful in some situations.

    Yes, you can forego Charged Mists when you pick the bigger band aid called Herald. As I said, both exist for the same reason, to fix the holes of the energy mechanic.

    The energy mechanic "not being strong enough by itself" is fine as long as there are options to help mitigate that. Currently the class does have those options in the form of Herald, Charged Mists, and/or Ancient Echo (or even Replenishing Despair).

    The class is built around being copy paste; that won't change without a huge overhaul of the entire class, which is incredibly unlikely. Personally, I don't want that to happen either necessarily since I'm happy with how it is now.

    [Citation Needed]

    The class was designed around dedicated legends. They looked at the core roles a build could provide and turned them into legends. Shiro for power dps, Mallyx for condi dps, Ventari for heals, Jalis for tankiness and utility and Glint for boon support. So, it's the exact opposite, the legends were designed to be as distinct as possible.

    Then you have the huge wrench called energy dropped in that design. You are forced to swap, because energy regen and costs are designed around that 50 reset. Suddenly, instead of dedicated builds, you have supports being forced to swap to damage legends and vice-versa. This is what forces the copypaste legends, the fact that you are forced to swap. If energy was designed in a way that you could stay on a legend as long as needed, we wouldn't have this issue.

    I'm not going to go digging for a citation for something that has been fairly obvious since before Heart of Thorns was even released (5+ years ago). Yes, the class was designed around dedicated legends that were intended to be static choices that offered a mix of utility/damage/healing/etc. depending on legend. If the developers didn't intend for build choices to be more "copy paste" (as you put it, not me btw), then they would have designed it with more inherent options. They absolutely knew and understood ahead of time (as can be seen in the revenant reveal streams with Roy back before HoT) that the trade off built into Revenant was an extra static 5 utilities +50 energy at the cost of losing your current set and any remaining energy. The developers, regardless of what people think of them, aren't dumb and don't just make random design decisions with no forethought.

    Being forced to swap is fine. It's the inherent gameplay design of the class.

    And it doesn't take a huge overhaul, just removing the energy costs from weapon skills and removing the energy reset on swap. It's not like Rev's weapon skills are any stronger or have lower cooldowns than other professions' skills, so the added cost is arbitrary.

    This would require a whole lot more balancing than you give it credit for. Completely changing how a core profession mechanic works and how energy is gained definitely takes more than just removing both energy costs and on-swap energy reset and calling it good. The entire flow of the class right now is built on being able to swap and reset to 50 energy every 10 seconds. Also if there is no energy reset, then why would there be a cooldown on legend swap? It effectively wouldn't have as much of a purpose anymore which means it would probably need to get removed or lessened as well. But then you'd have to add CDs or rework Song of the Mists, Spirit Boon, Invoke Torment, etc. and any other "on legend swap" effects. Also with no weapon skill energy costs Herald would essentially become free 100 energy before swapping into Shiro or Mallyx. kitten YEAH I want 100 energy when swapping to Shiro or Mallyx. That would be amazing, but super broken and imbalanced. SO then you'd have to rebalance all of Herald or mess with energy costs across the board again.

    SO no, it absolutely takes a huge overhaul because the effects would have huge ramifications across the class. These are just some of the balance issues I could think of within 5 minutes. There would certainly be more unintended consequences as well.

    Also that's untrue, about weapon skills; Rev's weapon skills are still mostly shorter CDs than other professions weapons, especially the 3/4/5 skills. In PvP/WvW the CDs are a lot closer or equal in some cases due to nerfs, but still generally lower for Rev.

    Renegade offers support, higher condi and power dps, better heals, adds more AoE, and ranged condi. All of these things were not available on Core or Herald. So Renegade offers a lot, even if you want to overlook its contributions.

    I'm not saying Renegade doesn't offer anything useful, I'm saying it doesn't offer anything unique.

    Literally all the things you mentioned, except ranged condi access (and even then mace had a 1200 skill) existed in core rev, between Mallyx and Ventari. The reason Kalla was needed was because you had to swap to something, and when you did, there was nothing that complemented either of those legends.

    All the Summons are unique except maybe Icerazor, for example, group lifesteal on Soulcleave was unique for the class before they added Shiro FoN, Breakrazor's pulsing AoE heal was unique for the class, especially the 50% condi reduction part for self and allies, Revenant had no pulsing CCs before Darkrazor. Razorclaw is the only "venom" access Rev has. In summation, Kalla is about large pulsing, AoE damage/buffs, which outside of Elemental Blast, pre-rework Unyielding Anguish/Embrace the Darkness, and Searing Fissure, Rev had minimal access to. She's a fairly unique legend overall just in that respect alone and while some aspects are "covered" by core legends, everything she does is in a different, unique to her way. Also Rev had no access to 10 man alacrity or strong 5 man might stack and didn't have access to a solid 2nd condi damage traitline. When anyone says "ranged condi" they absolutely don't mean 1 skill on an 8s CD, but the ability to create pressure through ranged autoattacks as well as other ranged skills.

    Kalla is helpful and a good compliment to Mallyx and Ventari, but they've also always had their own swaps. Mallyx has always been able to swap to Glint, Jalis, or Shiro. While not perfect compliments they still have their complementary aspects (especially in PvP/WvW). Hell, Condi Ren can already take Shiro as a secondary DPS legend over Kalla with minimal dps losses as is. And Ventari has always been able to swap to Glint, Jalis, or Mallyx depending on what extra utility it needs. Kalla was definitely needed as an additional compliment to them, yes, but to only paint her as useful and not unique because of that doesn't really do her enough justice.

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ok, so I'm on a phone and it's extremely annoying to respond in quotes, but I'll try my best.
    You keep trying to compare Rec'd limitations to what other classes have to deal with, but it's pointless. Everything you mention, rev has to deal with, too, on top of the energy mechanic. Rev can be on the wrong weapon set, can have their legend on cooldown or already used their CC for some other reason. This is equal for all classes, but revenant has a unique limitation of top of that. The only other ckass that can sort of compare is mesmer as you might not have clones for F3, but that's one skill and mesmer builds clones much more reliably that rev recovers energy, in pve at least.

    As for Engi, having to go through kits means nothing, kits have no cd or cast time themselves, if the CC skill is up, they can access it at any time.

    The energy mechanic "not being strong enough by itself" is fine as long as there are options to help mitigate that. Currently the class does have those options in the form of Herald, Charged Mists, and/or Ancient Echo (or even Replenishing Despair).

    Let's agree to disagree on that. Band aid solutions only prove the existence of the problem. If every elite spec going forward is going to require a new band aid or be forced into Charged Mists, I would rather the problem was addressed directly.

    The scope of an energy rework wouldn't be bigger than the phantasm rework. Also, you contradict yourself when you say that legend cooldown wouldn't need to be 10s but then point out the problems that reducing it below 10s would create. It would stay at 10s for the reasons and traits you mentioned, but because it's a gameplay issue. Swapping legends should have the same opportunity cost as swapping weapons. Even though weapon skills have their own cooldown, there's still a 10s cooldown, to create downtime for the player and a window of opportunity for their opponent.

    Yes, herald would need work, specifically because it was designed as an energy bandaid. Adding energy costs to consumes is not done colossal work, though.

    I'm not going to go digging for a citation for something that has been fairly obvious since before Heart of Thorns was even released (5+ years ago). Yes, the class was designed around dedicated legends that were intended to be static choices that offered a mix of utility/damage/healing/etc. depending on legend. If the developers didn't intend for build choices to be more "copy paste" (as you put it, not me btw), then they would have designed it with more inherent options. They absolutely knew and understood ahead of time (as can be seen in the revenant reveal streams with Roy back before HoT) that the trade off built into Revenant was an extra static 5 utilities +50 energy at the cost of losing your current set and any remaining energy. The developers, regardless of what people think of them, aren't dumb and don't just make random design decisions with no forethought.

    I don't understand what you are saying here. Has any dev ever said that it was fully their intention to make duplicate legends?

    I'm not talking about builds being copy paste, I'm talking about the legends themselves, like needing a second healing legend when Ventari exists. As I said, this is a problem created by the forced legend swap. If you want to play a healer Rev, you will be forced to swap at some point and stay in that other legend for 10 seconds. If that other legend doesn't offer any healing, then your build stops working for those 10 seconds. This is what I'm talking about copypaste legends; because we are forced to swap, they made a second healing legend in Kalla, to fill that downtime. At the same time, Kalla was also the second condi legend to couple with Mallyx.

    What I'm saying is that the original design of rev was to make 4 legends, each with distinct roles. But the energy mechanic makes it so you need 2 legends for each role.

    Being forced to swap is fine. It's the inherent gameplay design of the class.

    You are basically saying "it's fine, because it exists". It's the design, but it's a bad design. Phantasms were the design of mesmer, old herald was the design of that spec. Yet reworks happen all the same.

  • Arkantos.7460Arkantos.7460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    I would also want to mention something else in this same post.

    Energy.

    Energy is Revenant's sole resource used to fuel everything.

    But why on earth is it that Revenant is the only class that can put all their skills on cooldown just by pressing one button?

    Now that they increased the cost of Riposting Shadows, and removed Empty Vessel, breaking a stun costs all our Energy in pvp and wvw.

    Anet needs to seriously give every Legend a cheap Stunbreak.

    Even 30 Energy on Mallyx is painful to use.
    Jalis' cost 50 Energy.
    Shiro costs 30 Energy in PvE, 40 in PvP
    Ventari doesn't even have a stunbreak (LOL)

    Rite of the Great Dwarf has been 40 energy for a while, and now that there's the trait that gives you stability on breakstun, you might even be able to finish the Rite before getting CC'd again.

    Haven't experimented yet with rev in the new Empty Vessel-less world, but Jalis's at least seems to be better off than you think.

    was downed by a trap guard while casting rite of dwarf after he pulls me into his traps .... i couldnt even finish my stunbreake cast ... very annoying

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    Ok, so I'm on a phone and it's extremely annoying to respond in quotes, but I'll try my best.
    You keep trying to compare Rec'd limitations to what other classes have to deal with, but it's pointless. Everything you mention, rev has to deal with, too, on top of the energy mechanic. Rev can be on the wrong weapon set, can have their legend on cooldown or already used their CC for some other reason. This is equal for all classes, but revenant has a unique limitation of top of that. The only other ckass that can sort of compare is mesmer as you might not have clones for F3, but that's one skill and mesmer builds clones much more reliably that rev recovers energy, in pve at least.

    As for Engi, having to go through kits means nothing, kits have no cd or cast time themselves, if the CC skill is up, they can access it at any time.

    The energy mechanic "not being strong enough by itself" is fine as long as there are options to help mitigate that. Currently the class does have those options in the form of Herald, Charged Mists, and/or Ancient Echo (or even Replenishing Despair).

    Let's agree to disagree on that. Band aid solutions only prove the existence of the problem. If every elite spec going forward is going to require a new band aid or be forced into Charged Mists, I would rather the problem was addressed directly.

    The scope of an energy rework wouldn't be bigger than the phantasm rework. Also, you contradict yourself when you say that legend cooldown wouldn't need to be 10s but then point out the problems that reducing it below 10s would create. It would stay at 10s for the reasons and traits you mentioned, but because it's a gameplay issue. Swapping legends should have the same opportunity cost as swapping weapons. Even though weapon skills have their own cooldown, there's still a 10s cooldown, to create downtime for the player and a window of opportunity for their opponent.

    Yes, herald would need work, specifically because it was designed as an energy bandaid. Adding energy costs to consumes is not done colossal work, though.

    I'm not going to go digging for a citation for something that has been fairly obvious since before Heart of Thorns was even released (5+ years ago). Yes, the class was designed around dedicated legends that were intended to be static choices that offered a mix of utility/damage/healing/etc. depending on legend. If the developers didn't intend for build choices to be more "copy paste" (as you put it, not me btw), then they would have designed it with more inherent options. They absolutely knew and understood ahead of time (as can be seen in the revenant reveal streams with Roy back before HoT) that the trade off built into Revenant was an extra static 5 utilities +50 energy at the cost of losing your current set and any remaining energy. The developers, regardless of what people think of them, aren't dumb and don't just make random design decisions with no forethought.

    I don't understand what you are saying here. Has any dev ever said that it was fully their intention to make duplicate legends?

    I'm not talking about builds being copy paste, I'm talking about the legends themselves, like needing a second healing legend when Ventari exists. As I said, this is a problem created by the forced legend swap. If you want to play a healer Rev, you will be forced to swap at some point and stay in that other legend for 10 seconds. If that other legend doesn't offer any healing, then your build stops working for those 10 seconds. This is what I'm talking about copypaste legends; because we are forced to swap, they made a second healing legend in Kalla, to fill that downtime. At the same time, Kalla was also the second condi legend to couple with Mallyx.

    What I'm saying is that the original design of rev was to make 4 legends, each with distinct roles. But the energy mechanic makes it so you need 2 legends for each role.

    Being forced to swap is fine. It's the inherent gameplay design of the class.

    You are basically saying "it's fine, because it exists". It's the design, but it's a bad design. Phantasms were the design of mesmer, old herald was the design of that spec. Yet reworks happen all the same.

    We’re not going to agree on this so agree to disagree then. We both see and use the class very differently it seems. And no, im not saying the design of the class “is fine because it exists.” I’m saying “it’s fine because it performs exceptionally well in all game modes based on the objective data available to me.” The design of the class absolutely isn’t holding it back at all and it provides unique gameplay that doesn’t need to be changed just because some people on the forums subjectively think it’s designed poorly. And yes I acknowledge that my opinion is also subjective, so ultimately who is right in that situation? I go with objective metrics like class performance to look for those answers

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 20, 2020

    Empty Vessel kept Revenant hostage for years. It doesn't need to come back.

    People should also play something else than Herald, it's overrated. Let alone those who are still using Gaze of Darkness offensively need to learn what Revenant really is.

    CC spam = no damage, you have no reason to stunbreak right away unless you know you're gonna get hurt bad. They've done great with the stunbreak costs and it should make people think twice before going full offense.

    @Arkantos.7460 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    I would also want to mention something else in this same post.

    Energy.

    Energy is Revenant's sole resource used to fuel everything.

    But why on earth is it that Revenant is the only class that can put all their skills on cooldown just by pressing one button?

    Now that they increased the cost of Riposting Shadows, and removed Empty Vessel, breaking a stun costs all our Energy in pvp and wvw.

    Anet needs to seriously give every Legend a cheap Stunbreak.

    Even 30 Energy on Mallyx is painful to use.
    Jalis' cost 50 Energy.
    Shiro costs 30 Energy in PvE, 40 in PvP
    Ventari doesn't even have a stunbreak (LOL)

    Rite of the Great Dwarf has been 40 energy for a while, and now that there's the trait that gives you stability on breakstun, you might even be able to finish the Rite before getting CC'd again.

    Haven't experimented yet with rev in the new Empty Vessel-less world, but Jalis's at least seems to be better off than you think.

    was downed by a trap guard while casting rite of dwarf after he pulls me into his traps .... i couldnt even finish my stunbreake cast ... very annoying

    You must have been in a terrible position because there's a dozens way I can explain you how this could have gone better.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Empty Vessel kept Revenant hostage for years. It doesn't need to come back.

    I'm inclined to agree.
    After many discussions about Stunbreaks and Energy, I think Empty Vessel removal isn't that bad.

    For one I am able to run other traitlines instead of being forced to use Invocation.

    But the Energy cost of certain Stunbreaks, as well as the reasoning behind their high Energy gating needs to be all looked at, because Rev shouldn't be forced to Stunbreak and essentially "disable" themselves right after "recovering from a disable"

    As of now, PvE Rev Stunbreaks are in a very healthy spot due to their fair Energy Costs (sans Ventari because it still doesn't have a Stunbreak).

    Competitive needs some looking at.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Empty Vessel kept Revenant hostage for years. It doesn't need to come back.

    I'm inclined to agree.
    After many discussions about Stunbreaks and Energy, I think Empty Vessel removal isn't that bad.

    For one I am able to run other traitlines instead of being forced to use Invocation.

    But the Energy cost of certain Stunbreaks, as well as the reasoning behind their high Energy gating needs to be all looked at, because Rev shouldn't be forced to Stunbreak and essentially "disable" themselves right after "recovering from a disable"

    As of now, PvE Rev Stunbreaks are in a very healthy spot due to their fair Energy Costs (sans Ventari because it still doesn't have a Stunbreak).

    Competitive needs some looking at.

    I used to think it's unfair, but given Revenant is the only class that can stunbreak so often without much of a cooldown. It's fair. It probably annoys a lot of people being forced to play defensively after a stunbreak, but it's either that or you get higher cooldowns with lower cost skills. In between all of it, Revenant is still the only profession uncommonly stun locked and after a stunbreak given the new Glaring Resolve, it's definitely possible to still go on the offensive because weapon skills are not overshadowed by the cost of those skills, it's only a matter of being able to reset yourself while on the defensive to gain ground over what else that you fight.

    Both elites specs have an offensive and defensive emphasis on their stunbreaks which I see most go on the offensive side which is bad given that who knows how to fight a Revenant will easily win, should one most of the time if not always use skills from a defensive point to offensive turn as a way to also trade skills properly with the opponent because any type of Revenant can easily out cooldown any class but a Thief. That still doesn't mean they aren't invulnerable to their enemies, only how many hoops you'd manage to not get your legs stuck on.

    While with core, every thing feels fine tuned to the point of perfection in my mind, it's always a good or bad decision, there's no in between and my mistakes can be feel right away the second I've took initiative.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • ScottBroChill.3254ScottBroChill.3254 Member ✭✭✭

    empty vessel was a toxic trait because of how good it was, but the entire class was balanced around it which now makes rev feel clunky as all hell because they have no reliable stunbreaks.The problem isn't the lack of empty vessel, but the lack of anything to fill that void. Our stunbreaks are on large energy skills because of empty vessels accessability, making any stunbreak on a low cost skill almost overpowered. So we have gaze of darkness, the only low cost stunbreak, making herald and glint one of the top specs when you aren't running with an organized raid group. Sure herald and glint have a lot of other things they bring to the table, but without that stunbreak they wouldn't be as highly regarded in pvp or other solo or openworld content.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    empty vessel was a toxic trait because of how good it was, but the entire class was balanced around it which now makes rev feel clunky as all hell because they have no reliable stunbreaks.The problem isn't the lack of empty vessel, but the lack of anything to fill that void. Our stunbreaks are on large energy skills because of empty vessels accessability, making any stunbreak on a low cost skill almost overpowered. So we have gaze of darkness, the only low cost stunbreak, making herald and glint one of the top specs when you aren't running with an organized raid group. Sure herald and glint have a lot of other things they bring to the table, but without that stunbreak they wouldn't be as highly regarded in pvp or other solo or openworld content.

    There isn't supposed to be anything to fill that void, the game pacing has been shifted for every classes. It would be extremely unfair if Revenants could still stunbreak every 10 seconds + a full reset while every classes in the game now have 35+ seconds stunbreaks.

    The only exception I can think of is the engineer slick shoes tool belt which is honestly still a step below what was empty vessel and how Revenant currently is also. If I had to change anything right now for Revenant, it would be nothing, Core is extremely powerful and so is Renegade. However for Herald? Cooldown is too high at 25 seconds and needs to be 20 seconds again, this increase broke the pacing and uniformity in between legends cooldown. If I Swap to Glint to stunbreak right away, I expect myself to be able to Stunbreak again when I'm coming back to it after, not be vulnerable because there's an extra 5 seconds to wait, as far as I know Core would have already been able to stunbreak thrice.

    Doing the math, it takes 8 seconds to get 40% which fits 3 times in 25 seconds, there's a reason why core is superior given the Stability and damage reduction rivaling Infuse Light.

    Herald as of right now is factually inferior in stunbreaks(Off Topic but probably burst damage as well), weaker than Renegade even, it might be 12 seconds but there's an effective time for it which explains the extra 2 seconds over 10.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • ScottBroChill.3254ScottBroChill.3254 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    empty vessel was a toxic trait because of how good it was, but the entire class was balanced around it which now makes rev feel clunky as all hell because they have no reliable stunbreaks.The problem isn't the lack of empty vessel, but the lack of anything to fill that void. Our stunbreaks are on large energy skills because of empty vessels accessability, making any stunbreak on a low cost skill almost overpowered. So we have gaze of darkness, the only low cost stunbreak, making herald and glint one of the top specs when you aren't running with an organized raid group. Sure herald and glint have a lot of other things they bring to the table, but without that stunbreak they wouldn't be as highly regarded in pvp or other solo or openworld content.

    There isn't supposed to be anything to fill that void, the game pacing has been shifted for every classes. It would be extremely unfair if Revenants could still stunbreak every 10 seconds + a full reset while every classes in the game now have 35+ seconds stunbreaks.

    The only exception I can think of is the engineer slick shoes tool belt which is honestly still a step below what was empty vessel and how Revenant currently is also. If I had to change anything right now for Revenant, it would be nothing, Core is extremely powerful and so is Renegade. However for Herald? Cooldown is too high at 25 seconds and needs to be 20 seconds again, this increase broke the pacing and uniformity in between legends cooldown. If I Swap to Glint to stunbreak right away, I expect myself to be able to Stunbreak again when I'm coming back to it after, not be vulnerable because there's an extra 5 seconds to wait, as far as I know Core would have already been able to stunbreak thrice.

    Doing the math, it takes 8 seconds to get 40% which fits 3 times in 25 seconds, there's a reason why core is superior given the Stability and damage reduction rivaling Infuse Light.

    Herald as of right now is factually inferior in stunbreaks(Off Topic but probably burst damage as well), weaker than Renegade even, it might be 12 seconds but there's an effective time for it which explains the extra 2 seconds over 10.

    Yeah i feel it. I realize that number wise rev is in a good spot, but playstyle wise when we take out rotations, rev really lacks a lot. So as much as they perform all right, I really believe that they should knock down some of the easy dps and should make stun breaking and support a little easier. So you got in coordinated group play rev is fine, he has stab covered and empty vessel at this point is almost forgetable. but you bring in any dynamic play like pvp, open world pve, or solo stuff then the lack of that stunbreak is not ok. you have glint which brings the illusion of having easy stunbreaks, but you are locked into that specialization. Now we have core and renegade, and to be honest it works but the problem is that the lack of stunbreak is replaced by plain sustain and damage that requires little to no skill because its all trait activated. So we have core and renagade who are purely pumped by numbers who, because of that, can forget about the actual combat dynamics in the game. So either you bring herald and notice only 50% difference in stunbreak because you have gaze of darkness on 0 energy, or you don't bring herald and face having high energy stunbreak in which you are forced to take the trait that gives you 25 more energy so you can use skills on legends swap.

    The problem isn't that rev can't perform, it's that its performance is tied to herald for having an on demand stunbreak, or renegade for op dmg modifiers that cover the fact of the lack of stunbreaks, or core for having an extra energy boost. So basically, without herald you are forced to take the extra energy trait with renegade, or take core for the echo energy. No matter where you go you are almost forced into trait choices resulting in limited skill building. It's always one way is best for rev and with static utility bars, it becomes really sad. Every rev is cookie cutter. You don't see revs running unique builds like one would with other classes.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2020

    @Shao.7236 said:

    Doing the math, it takes 8 seconds to get 40% which fits 3 times in 25 seconds

    Yay to locking all my skills out of use because no energy

    I highly doubt this is anything near balanced because if yu CC lock Rev, they need to spend every drop of Energy on stunbreaks, and even when doing so, they further disable themselves besides auto attacks.

    Like this is the only issue I have with Rev right now.
    Stunbreaking once is a straight up self disable despite breaking out of a disable.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ScottBroChill.3254

    I played core the 2 past seasons, it's more than playable, just an heads up on it. I was an Herald Condition otherwise since they brought transfers to the table which is a year long now till the build I used was popularized (Even though I was bullied before it was). Did lose interest on core conditions when they nerfed PP and stuck to Power Core since which is extremely good in it's own right.

    I would disagree a little, Revenant tends to scare people away with it's playstyle.

    @Yasai.3549

    Depends, anytime I get stunned, I often have my swap or staff readily available. With Swap comes quickness to defensively finish skills faster/riposte faster or apply weakness with 2k barrier minimum and stability.

    90% of the time before leaving a legend I consume all energy available as well without much of an issue. Constant condition pressure is the counter of that power build while constant CC is the counter of that condition build.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Ourasa.7306Ourasa.7306 Member ✭✭

    My guess on the general consensus: They should reduce energy costs but add cooldowns. That way you don’t have stunbreak spam, and you don’t completely disable yourself from doing literally anything.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ourasa.7306 said:
    My guess on the general consensus: They should reduce energy costs but add cooldowns. That way you don’t have stunbreak spam, and you don’t completely disable yourself from doing literally anything.

    We already have cooldowns on both Utility and Weapon skills.

  • Bawi.9541Bawi.9541 Member ✭✭

    @Ourasa.7306 said:
    My guess on the general consensus: They should reduce energy costs but add cooldowns.

    Absolutely not general consensus. The energy + cd system is fine as is. Stunbreaks for rev, maybe not so much.

  • Ourasa.7306Ourasa.7306 Member ✭✭
    edited May 30, 2020

    @Bawi.9541 said:

    @Ourasa.7306 said:
    My guess on the general consensus: They should reduce energy costs but add cooldowns.

    Absolutely not general consensus. The energy + cd system is fine as is. Stunbreaks for rev, maybe not so much.

    I was indeed referring to the stunbreaks. Sorry, should've clarified.

    Also, that, or stunbreaks should just do less and cost less.