We need Empty Vessel back. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

We need Empty Vessel back.

Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

Rev doesn't even have the capability to field alot of CCs to use the new Contained Temper.

On the flip side, losing Empty Vessel is hurting Rev in all game modes.
I just got CC chained by 3 Icebrood.

Imagine that.

If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

Comments

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would request instead from ANet to reduce the cost of the Jalis breakstun (or to move it to Forced Engagement and change how the skill works) and to add a breakstun to the Ventari legend. I'm having little problem dealing with chainstuns with Glint + Mallyx using the same PvE build in PvP for two months, and now that every class has longer cooldowns in the cc skills and they do 0 direct damage is easier than ever...

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    I would also want to mention something else in this same post.

    Energy.

    Energy is Revenant's sole resource used to fuel everything.

    But why on earth is it that Revenant is the only class that can put all their skills on cooldown just by pressing one button?

    Now that they increased the cost of Riposting Shadows, and removed Empty Vessel, breaking a stun costs all our Energy in pvp and wvw.

    Anet needs to seriously give every Legend a cheap Stunbreak.

    Even 30 Energy on Mallyx is painful to use.
    Jalis' cost 50 Energy.
    Shiro costs 30 Energy in PvE, 40 in PvP
    Ventari doesn't even have a stunbreak (LOL)

    Rite of the Great Dwarf has been 40 energy for a while, and now that there's the trait that gives you stability on breakstun, you might even be able to finish the Rite before getting CC'd again.

    Haven't experimented yet with rev in the new Empty Vessel-less world, but Jalis's at least seems to be better off than you think.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's not empty vessel, it's shiro RS costing 40e.

    Devestation/Retribution Shiro/Glint has always been playable despite not using EV.

    The issue is that you simply will rarely have that 40e unless you are either A: Not casting skills at all or B: just switched to Shiro in which case you now have 10e left gg.

    I warned that it was a big overnerf and now that it is here it's just as much of an overnerf as predicted. Anyone who loses to shiro/glint at this point got outplayed.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    I would also want to mention something else in this same post.

    Energy.

    Energy is Revenant's sole resource used to fuel everything.

    But why on earth is it that Revenant is the only class that can put all their skills on cooldown just by pressing one button?

    Now that they increased the cost of Riposting Shadows, and removed Empty Vessel, breaking a stun costs all our Energy in pvp and wvw.

    Anet needs to seriously give every Legend a cheap Stunbreak.

    Even 30 Energy on Mallyx is painful to use.
    Jalis' cost 50 Energy.
    Shiro costs 30 Energy in PvE, 40 in PvP
    Ventari doesn't even have a stunbreak (LOL)

    Rite of the Great Dwarf has been 40 energy for a while, and now that there's the trait that gives you stability on breakstun, you might even be able to finish the Rite before getting CC'd again.

    Haven't experimented yet with rev in the new Empty Vessel-less world, but Jalis's at least seems to be better off than you think.

    I am possibly one of the best Jalis Revenants in the game.

    Do you want to know the likelihood that I will go an entire ranked match without casting RotGD a single time?

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:

    Do you want to know the likelihood that I will go an entire ranked match without casting RotGD a single time?

    There's also this thing where RotGD has a CAST TIME
    A Stunbreak with a cast time is just useless.

    It could cost literally nothing and still be useless because people who usually drop CC has some follow up CC or other players are also laying down CC.
    If yur lying on the ground with no Stability or anything, this is gonna get interrupted as well.

    A Stunbreak with a cast time which has a cover (Stability, evade frames, block frames, invul frames) is not useless. After all, the Shiro stunbreak everyone is so attracted to has a cast time, it's just that the cast time is protected by an evade. The new trait makes it so that all the stunbreaks now also provide protection against restunning, if you take the trait.

    RotGD as a stunbreak got improved. The problem is that the amount of CC hasn't been reduced as much as advertised, and the reduction of anti-CC available through the removal of Empty Vessel and Retribution's stab-on-evade as well as the increase in the cost of Riposting Shadows has made revenant more of a bowling pin pretty much whatever build you run. Glaring Resolve makes RotGD and Pain Absorption more practical to use as stunbreaks, but does not compensate for the CC protection that's been lost.

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:
    Nope, we don't need Empty Vessel, we need lower Energy costs.

    Jalis' _(interruptable) Elite Stunbreak costs 40 Energy.

    Shiro's dodge Stunbreak costs 40 energy.

    Ventari doesn't have a Stunbreak.

    Shiro's whole utility bar costs 5+35+40+50=130 Energy (+upkeep)

    Why? Because his utilities are overloaded.

    For me (competitively) 40 Energy for a Utility Stunbreak while Revenant gets 50 Energy on Legend Swap is a joke.

    Same with Ventari - removing any way if stunbreaking kills the legend competitively.

    This in all honesty.

  • Jthug.9506Jthug.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    Yup, even the Mallyx and Kalla stun breaks aren't cheap enough to be reliably available. And idk about anyone else but between warriors and rangers it feels like a permastun fest in a lot of matches in pvp now.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    We do need it back, but anyone who despises rev will say "nah its fine". We are pretty hated within the playerbase it seems... right up there with thief and mess for some ungodly reason.

  • Looking back two weeks after the patch when some stuff has had time to settle... this is simply not happening because it was the cheapest and easiest stunbreak in the game, and would far outpace what other classes have. I'm as frustrated as everyone else from getting CC chained, but the solution can't be to give Empty Vessel back.

    That said, Rev did get hit extremely hard compared to other classes in terms of stunbreaks being nerfed, and it's inordinately easy to lock down a rev compared to before. With Full Counter still on a 8.75s cooldown and Magebane Tether on a 12s cooldown just for an example, the overnerfing of stunbreaks can be put into perspective.

    Riposting Shadows was a massive overnerf, 40 energy is far too much. Rather keep it at 30 energy and remove the fury, or just put it at 35 energy.

    Gaze of Darkness shouldn't be 25 seconds, either. Revert it to 20 seconds.

    good lord i am absolute trash at this video game

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ventusthunder.5067 said:
    Looking back two weeks after the patch when some stuff has had time to settle... this is simply not happening because it was the cheapest and easiest stunbreak in the game, and would far outpace what other classes have. I'm as frustrated as everyone else from getting CC chained, but the solution can't be to give Empty Vessel back.

    That said, Rev did get hit extremely hard compared to other classes in terms of stunbreaks being nerfed, and it's inordinately easy to lock down a rev compared to before. With Full Counter still on a 8.75s cooldown and Magebane Tether on a 12s cooldown just for an example, the overnerfing of stunbreaks can be put into perspective.

    Riposting Shadows was a massive overnerf, 40 energy is far too much. Rather keep it at 30 energy and remove the fury, or just put it at 35 energy.

    Gaze of Darkness shouldn't be 25 seconds, either. Revert it to 20 seconds.

    They wont compensate us so why not just give it back? Its a stunbreak not a mass of damage. Rev was all about flow and fluidity of combat, now its just "Welp they got me might as well sit back and watch." There is hardly any escape because it really makes it hard when your stun-breaks remove your ability to retaliate in any form because of the energy cost. The way I see it unless the rev jumps you with your pants down, you have an advantage over this class and it honestly does not feel good to play rev in anything outside of PvE.

    They need to rework something, anything or give us this back. I mean rangers and druids are pretty much perma-locking people down and rev is predominantly a melee class so getting into melee is a pain in the kitten now. They could give us a ranged condi-wep for our core, but that still leaves power in a horrible place and it makes invocation not being worthy of use, because everything else in it is merely multipliers that can't effect you when you're dead. There is nothing in the traitline offering you sustain or a way to help get more out of it. (at least when herald or Ren is concerned.) Core can get away with it because Jalis brings enough to the table to help with CC, but he was always able to do that and its not as though this is a new thing.

    They "Gutted" us because of the QQ and now condi rev is on the chopping block, be prepared to see that get gutted as well so they can get people to shut up. Its not about fair its about getting the QQ to stop.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    it honestly does not feel good to play rev in anything outside of PvE.

    Dude the entire reason why I decided to make this thread was because it started to affect my PvE play as well.
    I got CC chained by 3 Icebrood and it did NOT feel good.

    Alot of mobs in HoT also have heavy CC, and PoF has even worse ones with Forged doggies.

    Removal of Empty Vessel only did one thing : allow Rev builds to forgo Invocation.
    But it hurt Revenant overall because it makes gameplay too disruptive, even in PvE, especially if yu are playing Ventari.

    Ventari gets CC'd? Welp gg that's it, gotta be useless for 3 seconds now.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    it honestly does not feel good to play rev in anything outside of PvE.

    Dude the entire reason why I decided to make this thread was because it started to affect my PvE play as well.
    I got CC chained by 3 Icebrood and it did NOT feel good.

    Alot of mobs in HoT also have heavy CC, and PoF has even worse ones with Forged doggies.

    Removal of Empty Vessel only did one thing : allow Rev builds to forgo Invocation.
    But it hurt Revenant overall because it makes gameplay too disruptive, even in PvE, especially if yu are playing Ventari.

    Ventari gets CC'd? Welp gg that's it, gotta be useless for 3 seconds now.

    I agree honestly I've been noticing this more in PvE, in comp modes it forces you to play... simultaneously more passive and smarter. And I would agree as well with Thornwolf that this is a huge problem with power rev's flow. It's probably the second biggest problem with power rev's flow now, the first one obviously being Surge.

    I believe that the only thing that the balance team CAN do at this point is to give a little back in terms of Glint/Shiro stunbreaks. Rev would still be susceptible to CC chains but perhaps not as drastically as "40 energy in Shiro when it's also your damage, and 25 seconds in Glint when it's also an offensive skill."

    I think the other point I'd like to make, and that a lot of other people share the opinion of, is that nerfing skills in terms of energy costs is lazy at best, terrible for the class at worst. And making Shiro so energy hungry is a big part of that. I'd much rather have them take the fury off of Riposting Shadows entirely and keep it at 30 energy, or make Banish Enchantment hit twice instead of thrice, but keep it at 20 energy. We've always had energy tied to both weapon and utility skills, and when everything is so energy-hungry, the class does not flow right.

    If you want to deal any damage with Shiro, you pretty much have to forgo your stunbreak entirely. I'm all for going balls deep with Impossible Odds, but the fluidity of the class is just ruined by having to sit back and wait for your energy to come back, and thus, your moment to burst. Power herald is beginning to make me feel like a cowardly WvW thief, you know the type, just sitting back and waiting for their initiative to come back.

    good lord i am absolute trash at this video game

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2020

    @ventusthunder.5067 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    it honestly does not feel good to play rev in anything outside of PvE.

    Dude the entire reason why I decided to make this thread was because it started to affect my PvE play as well.
    I got CC chained by 3 Icebrood and it did NOT feel good.

    Alot of mobs in HoT also have heavy CC, and PoF has even worse ones with Forged doggies.

    Removal of Empty Vessel only did one thing : allow Rev builds to forgo Invocation.
    But it hurt Revenant overall because it makes gameplay too disruptive, even in PvE, especially if yu are playing Ventari.

    Ventari gets CC'd? Welp gg that's it, gotta be useless for 3 seconds now.

    I agree honestly I've been noticing this more in PvE, in comp modes it forces you to play... simultaneously more passive and smarter. And I would agree as well with Thornwolf that this is a huge problem with power rev's flow. It's probably the second biggest problem with power rev's flow now, the first one obviously being Surge.

    I believe that the only thing that the balance team CAN do at this point is to give a little back in terms of Glint/Shiro stunbreaks. Rev would still be susceptible to CC chains but perhaps not as drastically as "40 energy in Shiro when it's also your damage, and 25 seconds in Glint when it's also an offensive skill."

    I think the other point I'd like to make, and that a lot of other people share the opinion of, is that nerfing skills in terms of energy costs is lazy at best, terrible for the class at worst. And making Shiro so energy hungry is a big part of that. I'd much rather have them take the fury off of Riposting Shadows entirely and keep it at 30 energy, or make Banish Enchantment hit twice instead of thrice, but keep it at 20 energy. We've always had energy tied to both weapon and utility skills, and when everything is so energy-hungry, the class does not flow right.

    If you want to deal any damage with Shiro, you pretty much have to forgo your stunbreak entirely. I'm all for going balls deep with Impossible Odds, but the fluidity of the class is just ruined by having to sit back and wait for your energy to come back, and thus, your moment to burst. Power herald is beginning to make me feel like a cowardly WvW thief, you know the type, just sitting back and waiting for their initiative to come back.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @ventusthunder.5067 said:
    Looking back two weeks after the patch when some stuff has had time to settle... this is simply not happening because it was the cheapest and easiest stunbreak in the game, and would far outpace what other classes have. I'm as frustrated as everyone else from getting CC chained, but the solution can't be to give Empty Vessel back.

    That said, Rev did get hit extremely hard compared to other classes in terms of stunbreaks being nerfed, and it's inordinately easy to lock down a rev compared to before. With Full Counter still on a 8.75s cooldown and Magebane Tether on a 12s cooldown just for an example, the overnerfing of stunbreaks can be put into perspective.

    Riposting Shadows was a massive overnerf, 40 energy is far too much. Rather keep it at 30 energy and remove the fury, or just put it at 35 energy.

    Gaze of Darkness shouldn't be 25 seconds, either. Revert it to 20 seconds.

    They wont compensate us so why not just give it back? Its a stunbreak not a mass of damage. Rev was all about flow and fluidity of combat, now its just "Welp they got me might as well sit back and watch." There is hardly any escape because it really makes it hard when your stun-breaks remove your ability to retaliate in any form because of the energy cost. The way I see it unless the rev jumps you with your pants down, you have an advantage over this class and it honestly does not feel good to play rev in anything outside of PvE.

    They need to rework something, anything or give us this back. I mean rangers and druids are pretty much perma-locking people down and rev is predominantly a melee class so getting into melee is a pain in the kitten now. They could give us a ranged condi-wep for our core, but that still leaves power in a horrible place and it makes invocation not being worthy of use, because everything else in it is merely multipliers that can't effect you when you're dead. There is nothing in the traitline offering you sustain or a way to help get more out of it. (at least when herald or Ren is concerned.) Core can get away with it because Jalis brings enough to the table to help with CC, but he was always able to do that and its not as though this is a new thing.

    They "Gutted" us because of the QQ and now condi rev is on the chopping block, be prepared to see that get gutted as well so they can get people to shut up. Its not about fair its about getting the QQ to stop.

    I agree with both of you and I've been playing the game less as rev was my main and I don't feel at this point like I want to pick a new main , learn a new class for the sake of it when I know another balance patch is around the corner waiting to mess me up. Its almost like no one plays rev up in A-nets dev department, some of the changes baffled me as our big cc skills were also big, costly and sometimes unusable skills AS IT WAS. Jade winds? Ranger interrupts. Glints wings? They dodge it. Staff 5 I kind of maybe, a bit understand but at the same time I don't feel like it was the monster people made it out to be. And now everyone is witch-hunting revenants and coming to take our condi spec away too. (Because god forbid any part of this class function, and be viable in any terms once so ever.)

    I don't know how to fix it and no CC chains should not be a thing, there should be a global cc immunity. You got caught by one cool! Now you can't be cc'd for ten seconds so you won't be ping ponged around and just beaten to death without having an retaliation you can give due to being locked down. This then means they could cull back some skills and make skills that are strictly cc breaks more useful outside of that role.

    The way it feels now is we have support rev, who is kinda trash-canned right now. We have power rev who they John Cena'd out a window and condi-rev who is preforming well but has not changed overall and is the same as it was prior to patch. The only difference is because of how condi works Mallyx is strong as heck especially with runes of tormenting, but if you take runes of tormenting away? Trash-tier in wvw/pvp.

  • Chungo.3169Chungo.3169 Member ✭✭

    I agree, the power rev does not feel good, punished by stunbreak ... it is incredible that they did not try it before doing it. I know certain things had to be addressed but ... this form was the worst possible. For me it is not the same class, without fluidity, only punished. In one fell swoop they've rendered her unusable, boring and as a pvp player I no longer enjoy playing my main class. We need you to do something soon ...