When are we gonna see the trade offs for Firebrands and Dragonhunters???? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

When are we gonna see the trade offs for Firebrands and Dragonhunters????

ANETs favorite profession seem to keep dodging the trade off bullet. Maybe they can lose all their dodges.

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Comments

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Guardian elite specs have always had a tradeoff - they lose the instant activation base virtues. Sure, that might not seem like a great loss, but there have certainly been times where I've felt having the basic virtue would have served better than a DH virtue, and sometimes even than a tome. If the base virtues aren't good enough and the elite spec replacements are too good, that's a general balancing issue, not a tradeoff issue. And we did just see substantial nerfs to tomes in competitive - nerfs which seem to be heavier than the baseline nerfs to damage and healing.

    A similar observation applies for necromancer: the tradeoff for playing a reaper or scourge is that you lose access to the core death shroud.

    It's worth keeping in mind that the tradeoffs, broadly speaking, aren't intended to be flat nerfs so much as giving you some incentive to go back to the core profession. Daredevil's Swipe, for instance, is intended as a sidegrade... but if you really want the longer range, it's an incentive to play core Thief. Now, I think they were heavy-handed with Mirage, but it might also only be temporary until they can come up with a tradeoff (which, again, might be a sidegrade rather than an out-and-out nerf) that can be applied in PvE as well.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It will be difficult to properly adjust the profession tradeoff in the case of guardian because the base virtues just feel so... lackluster?

    Firebrand gets tons of new skills, and balancing those 15 profession skills versus 3 base virtues seems impossible. I was thinking, what if firebrand just loses all virtues, has to select ONE tome to use in combat (like how revenant picks legends), have this tome behave like an engineer kit (ie: you can swap in/out at will without CD), and have the page count work on an ammo system mechanic? Then CDs can be adjusted, and a firebrand will have 5 profession skills available in combat rather than 15, which would be easier to balance again.

    As for DH, they could modify the passive side of the virtues, or increase their application time, so in a way activating virtues is stronger un DH, whereas keeping them passive is stronger for core guardian.

    Just some ideas.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Guardian elite specs have always had a tradeoff - they lose the instant activation base virtues. Sure, that might not seem like a great loss, but there have certainly been times where I've felt having the basic virtue would have served better than a DH virtue, and sometimes even than a tome. If the base virtues aren't good enough and the elite spec replacements are too good, that's a general balancing issue, not a tradeoff issue. And we did just see substantial nerfs to tomes in competitive - nerfs which seem to be heavier than the baseline nerfs to damage and healing.

    A similar observation applies for necromancer: the tradeoff for playing a reaper or scourge is that you lose access to the core death shroud.

    It's worth keeping in mind that the tradeoffs, broadly speaking, aren't intended to be flat nerfs so much as giving you some incentive to go back to the core profession. Daredevil's Swipe, for instance, is intended as a sidegrade... but if you really want the longer range, it's an incentive to play core Thief. Now, I think they were heavy-handed with Mirage, but it might also only be temporary until they can come up with a tradeoff (which, again, might be a sidegrade rather than an out-and-out nerf) that can be applied in PvE as well.

    You know, Soulbeasts kept saying that their trade off was not having their pet out all the time and look at what happened :wink:

    I try to play everything, mostly to know what I'm talking about. Reaper Shroud absolutely does not feel like a trade off and a straight upgrade. Ditto with DH virtues and Tomes. What would be a true trade off? Given Anet's solutions the options typically include stat reductions, increased CD's, or adding something to the Core class.

    Would a 4th virtue be cool? Sure! Make it strong, something like an AoE power based attack on active, but on passive grants 1 stack of might (5s) every fifth attack for 10 targets, 2 stacks if traited.

    But seriously, what would be a better trade off for FB would for Tomes to share the weapon swap CD, but once you use all your pages you go back to your last equipped weapon. DH might get a stat hit instead frankly.

    Soulbeasts can have their pets out the entire time if they chose to, tho. This is not really a trade off. Before the removal of pet swap, Soulbeast was simply an add on on top. You can have your pet out all the time just like the ranger, but you get the CHOICE to fuse with your pet additionally, if you desire to.

    Therefore this is not really a trade off. You were not really giving up anything to get the additional option to fuse with your pet. Imagine a Reaper gets the Reaper shroud as an F2 skill instead of replacing the F1. If you use your life force for the Reaper shroud, then of course you won't have life force left to use the classic shroud as well. But you actually have the choice to use either, the reaper shroud or your classic shroud with the resources. It would be a flat upgrade. And Soulbeast has been exactly like this, they were not giving up anything before, they just got another option added.

    Bingo. Just as berserker could always just choose not to use berserk mode and just use regular adrenaline burst skills... well, until it couldn't. Dragonhunter and firebrand never could choose to use the core virtues - they were outright replaced.

    That's pretty much how it's been with all the tradeoffs. It's about there being something that the core version of the profession can do that the elite specialisation couldn't. Berserker, herald, renegade, scrapper, druid, soulbeast, daredevil, tempest, chronomancer - in each of those cases, there was really nothing that the core profession could do that the elite specialisation couldn't, apart from being able to have three core traitlines. Note the exceptions there - Spellbreaker lost the ability to use more than one bar of adrenaline at a time, Deadeye had Steal reworked, Weaver has a global cooldown on attunement swapping. These don't need a tradeoff because there was one built into the elite specialisation from the beginning.

    Meanwhile, berserker has lost regular adrenaline burst skills. Scrapper lost the F5 toolbelt. Druid lost some damage on pets. Soulbeast lost petswap. Daredevil had Steal swapped with Swipe - a sidegrade more than anything else. Revenant had something added to core.

    Reaper lost the more ranged-oriented Death Shroud in exchange for the melee-oriented Reaper Shroud. Dragonhunter lost instant-activation virtues for the more "physical" dragonhunter virtues -which, yes, are more powerful, but which take time to activate (time that you're not spending doing something else) and can be interrupted.

    These are the tradeoffs. Whether some of the options are better than others is a separate balance consideration.

  • Josiah.2967Josiah.2967 Member ✭✭✭

    The trade off for the most powerful class is overdue.

  • @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Guardian elite specs have always had a tradeoff - they lose the instant activation base virtues. Sure, that might not seem like a great loss, but there have certainly been times where I've felt having the basic virtue would have served better than a DH virtue, and sometimes even than a tome. If the base virtues aren't good enough and the elite spec replacements are too good, that's a general balancing issue, not a tradeoff issue. And we did just see substantial nerfs to tomes in competitive - nerfs which seem to be heavier than the baseline nerfs to damage and healing.

    A similar observation applies for necromancer: the tradeoff for playing a reaper or scourge is that you lose access to the core death shroud.

    It's worth keeping in mind that the tradeoffs, broadly speaking, aren't intended to be flat nerfs so much as giving you some incentive to go back to the core profession. Daredevil's Swipe, for instance, is intended as a sidegrade... but if you really want the longer range, it's an incentive to play core Thief. Now, I think they were heavy-handed with Mirage, but it might also only be temporary until they can come up with a tradeoff (which, again, might be a sidegrade rather than an out-and-out nerf) that can be applied in PvE as well.

    You know, Soulbeasts kept saying that their trade off was not having their pet out all the time and look at what happened :wink:

    I try to play everything, mostly to know what I'm talking about. Reaper Shroud absolutely does not feel like a trade off and a straight upgrade. Ditto with DH virtues and Tomes. What would be a true trade off? Given Anet's solutions the options typically include stat reductions, increased CD's, or adding something to the Core class.

    Would a 4th virtue be cool? Sure! Make it strong, something like an AoE power based attack on active, but on passive grants 1 stack of might (5s) every fifth attack for 10 targets, 2 stacks if traited.

    But seriously, what would be a better trade off for FB would for Tomes to share the weapon swap CD, but once you use all your pages you go back to your last equipped weapon. DH might get a stat hit instead frankly.

    Soulbeasts can have their pets out the entire time if they chose to, tho. This is not really a trade off. Before the removal of pet swap, Soulbeast was simply an add on on top. You can have your pet out all the time just like the ranger, but you get the CHOICE to fuse with your pet additionally, if you desire to.

    Therefore this is not really a trade off. You were not really giving up anything to get the additional option to fuse with your pet. Imagine a Reaper gets the Reaper shroud as an F2 skill instead of replacing the F1. If you use your life force for the Reaper shroud, then of course you won't have life force left to use the classic shroud as well. But you actually have the choice to use either, the reaper shroud or your classic shroud with the resources. It would be a flat upgrade. And Soulbeast has been exactly like this, they were not giving up anything before, they just got another option added.

    That was my point. It wasn't a trade off, but they kept trying to insist that it was when it was just a straight upgrade. DH Virtues and FB Tomes are straight upgrades.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2020

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Guardian elite specs have always had a tradeoff - they lose the instant activation base virtues. Sure, that might not seem like a great loss, but there have certainly been times where I've felt having the basic virtue would have served better than a DH virtue, and sometimes even than a tome. If the base virtues aren't good enough and the elite spec replacements are too good, that's a general balancing issue, not a tradeoff issue. And we did just see substantial nerfs to tomes in competitive - nerfs which seem to be heavier than the baseline nerfs to damage and healing.

    A similar observation applies for necromancer: the tradeoff for playing a reaper or scourge is that you lose access to the core death shroud.

    It's worth keeping in mind that the tradeoffs, broadly speaking, aren't intended to be flat nerfs so much as giving you some incentive to go back to the core profession. Daredevil's Swipe, for instance, is intended as a sidegrade... but if you really want the longer range, it's an incentive to play core Thief. Now, I think they were heavy-handed with Mirage, but it might also only be temporary until they can come up with a tradeoff (which, again, might be a sidegrade rather than an out-and-out nerf) that can be applied in PvE as well.

    You know, Soulbeasts kept saying that their trade off was not having their pet out all the time and look at what happened :wink:

    I try to play everything, mostly to know what I'm talking about. Reaper Shroud absolutely does not feel like a trade off and a straight upgrade. Ditto with DH virtues and Tomes. What would be a true trade off? Given Anet's solutions the options typically include stat reductions, increased CD's, or adding something to the Core class.

    Would a 4th virtue be cool? Sure! Make it strong, something like an AoE power based attack on active, but on passive grants 1 stack of might (5s) every fifth attack for 10 targets, 2 stacks if traited.

    But seriously, what would be a better trade off for FB would for Tomes to share the weapon swap CD, but once you use all your pages you go back to your last equipped weapon. DH might get a stat hit instead frankly.

    Soulbeasts can have their pets out the entire time if they chose to, tho. This is not really a trade off. Before the removal of pet swap, Soulbeast was simply an add on on top. You can have your pet out all the time just like the ranger, but you get the CHOICE to fuse with your pet additionally, if you desire to.

    Therefore this is not really a trade off. You were not really giving up anything to get the additional option to fuse with your pet. Imagine a Reaper gets the Reaper shroud as an F2 skill instead of replacing the F1. If you use your life force for the Reaper shroud, then of course you won't have life force left to use the classic shroud as well. But you actually have the choice to use either, the reaper shroud or your classic shroud with the resources. It would be a flat upgrade. And Soulbeast has been exactly like this, they were not giving up anything before, they just got another option added.

    That was my point. It wasn't a trade off, but they kept trying to insist that it was when it was just a straight upgrade. DH Virtues and FB Tomes are straight upgrades.

    Not really. They're more powerful than the core virtues, yes, but they require more time investment. Dragonhunter virtues are full skills with animations that prevent you from using another skill at the same time and can be interrupted, and usually go on full cooldown when they do - naturally, they're going to be more powerful when they do trigger, to account for teh risk of interruption and that you're not performing another skill while you do it. Tomes have an even stronger effect, but over a longer period of time, and two of them almost lock you out of offensive actions altogether while they're in effect.

    There's a sliding scale from a relatively low effect with zero time investment, through a moderate to strong effect with a similar time investment to most skills, to a sustained effect that replaced your weapon for as long as it lasts.

    Instant activation is not to be scoffed at. A lot of the current balance pass was all about toning down instant activations for a reason. Core guardian virtues aren't going to spike someone down, but with the right traits you can get a lot of mileage out of core virtues (as just one example, Indomitable Courage works better with core Virtue of Courage, since there's no chance of it being interrupted before the Stability triggers, and if can be fired to cover another skill or to cover a stomp), and if you really need a panic button you can chain through all three of them as quickly as you can press the buttons if you need to.

    Now, I haven't played the recent patch much, but in the previous meta, a well-played core guardian could be just as dangerous as a well-played dragonhunter, and a darn sight less predictable (you know what to expect when you see a DH on the enemy team - when you see a core guardian, there are a couple of approaches they could be taking). Firebrands were pretty dominant, although it's unclear how much of that was simply that it's advantageous to have a support and Firebrand was the best support - nevertheless, while everyone's damage and nearly everyone's healing got reduced in the latest patch, firebrand had its numbers pared down more than the average. However, when scourge was dominant, ArenaNet didn't go looking for tradeoffs because scourge already had a tradeoff. So do the guardian elite specialisations. You could make the argument that they're getting more than they're giving up, but there is something they're giving up, so when it comes to intra-profession balancing the tradeoff is already there, it's just a matter of adjusting the numbers so that they're all reasonably equally attractive options rather than having a clear standout.

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭

    IMO, Core Guardian should get the Core Revenant treatment and add an F4 and maybe an F5 that DH and FB don’t get. Otherwise, I’m not sure how you could feasible fit in a trade off.

  • @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:
    IMO, Core Guardian should get the Core Revenant treatment and add an F4 and maybe an F5 that DH and FB don’t get. Otherwise, I’m not sure how you could feasible fit in a trade off.

    I mentioned one option up above. I feel like a physical damage based virtue that also provided some offensive boon would fit in well. Although I think only one extra virtue is needed in that case, make it exclusive to core, and make it strong.

  • Sorem.9157Sorem.9157 Member ✭✭✭

    By equipping the Firebrand traitline you automatically lose your Core Virtues.

    By equipping Soulbeast you DID NOT automatically lose your pet and by equipping old Berserker you did not automatically lose your core F1 burst skill. The comparisons you are trying to push over us makes absolutely zero sense. It is like saying having access to Celestial Avatar in druid is a trade off because when you pop it you lose your weapon skills. You can always CHOOSE to not pop it.

    There is also a reason why you never saw full glass DH or FB like you saw old Core Guardian. That build requires a kind of fast gameplay which you cannot have without instant cast virtues.

    Try playing Firebrand with a full meditations or similar high mobility burst setup like old core guardian had and come back here tell me there is no tradeoff.

    You won't, because it doesn't work.

  • ZeftheWicked.3076ZeftheWicked.3076 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2020

    @DragonSlayer.1087 said:

    I try to play everything, mostly to know what I'm talking about. Reaper Shroud absolutely does not feel like a trade off and a straight upgrade. Ditto with DH virtues and Tomes. What would be a true trade off? Given Anet's solutions the options typically include stat reductions, increased CD's, or adding something to the Core class.

    Would a 4th virtue be cool? Sure! Make it strong, something like an AoE power based attack on active, but on passive grants 1 stack of might (5s) every fifth attack for 10 targets, 2 stacks if traited.

    I thought reaper shroud drains faster than your average shroud? I think that was added when they tweaked reaper a while back.

    As a long time necro main let me make it clear:
    The main point here is that it's not an equal trade (off).
    Reaper shroud is a massive upgrade for a slight annoyance in terms of LF drained.

    Reaper shroud's damage is the best in slot for necro, while core shroud is bottom of barrel.
    Reaper shroud skills greatly synergize with eachother and traits (powerful and safe stab-shielded transfusion or dhuumfire).
    Reaper skills are fast and responsive, only exception being #5, but since it's a massive cc it's justified. On core everything feels slow.
    Reaper shroud does more things better - cleave, combo field, leap finisher, damage reduction, quickness, two cc, huge burst.

    Core necro goes into shroud to take a beating or if he really, really reaaalllly needs a sucky long range attack option.
    Reaper goes into shroud to actually get things done and unlike core this is his prime time where damage spikes, stab gets popped and he can do a ton of cool stuff.

  • Lexi.1398Lexi.1398 Member ✭✭✭

    FB is in desperate need of trade off, HOWEVER, restricting to 1 tome only i don't think is the answer. Nor is removing the weapon swap - that would be fine for dps firebrand (maybe even not heavy handed enough), but would be a huge hit to support builds (in PvE anyway).

    First of all, i think loremaster (virtues retain passives on cd, reduce tome cd) should just be a trait FB's either have ingrained into the spec, or replace it with a different trait entirely. Loremaster is VERY strong compared to the other traits in that slot, but if it was either gone OR mandatory then you can balance FB eitherway to account for it, there is basically no other trait choices because of how significant loremaster is.
    Perhaps, replace swift scholar with loremaster (but only have the retain passives part of it, ditch the tome cd reduction). Using a tome puts all tomes on a global coolown worth a given % of their original cd, and the trait replacing loremaster for choice slot shortens the global cd %.
    Note that i consider loremaster important here, because like mirage and IH, the class is just completely different without it (and incase ur wondering i support IH being a given for all mirages too). In fact, just removing the loremaster trait only could be an effective trade off: you get tome skills, but using them means having no passives.

    As for DH, it's a weird one. It's virtues definitely are a straight up upgrade, no longer being instant cast is barely a drawback at all, in fact, the only real trade off is having to take the DH traitline which even is a real thing for some raid speedrun compositions. I'm not sure what an effective and thematic trade off would be though.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    FB doesn't need a tradeoff...it has one based on Anets definition. . Its needs to be balanced. Very different things. People get the two confused very regularly and easily by the sounds of things.

  • WarLordZ.4217WarLordZ.4217 Member ✭✭
    edited February 26, 2020

    If you take a look at WvW. They nerfed the hell out of the Dh, u cannot even play with traps or even with the bow, cause the are dealing in comparison zero dmg. or cc. Btw the animations were before the chance quite obivous too and now it's even worse. They should do something about the upcoming condirev spam or perma stun and and interrupting spellbreakers or the nearly uneffected thief's. But heeey let's nerf the last really competetive power build and buff the cancer.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just take away their passive effects.

    Their actives are extremely strong, they don't really lose much from losing the passives except maybe for Burn builds and the passive Aegis.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • @Yasai.3549 said:
    Just take away their passive effects.

    Their actives are extremely strong, they don't really lose much from losing the passives except maybe for Burn builds and the passive Aegis.

    Ha! That would certainly kill DH dps builds in every mode. I think giving core an exclusive virtue would be better.

  • Genesis.5169Genesis.5169 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dh should lose their passive virtues. Fb should lose access to a 2nd weapon. Tomes count as a swap

    Your gonna make every guardian quit the game..this is gonna hurt pvp more then help it.

    For those on the forums who advocate for the removal of duo queues in Spvp, realize your actions over the past 7 years has destroyed gw2 Spvp and thinking doing the same thing again is a good idea after several years of it not working crazy. Get better at pvp.

  • @Genesis.5169 said:

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dh should lose their passive virtues. Fb should lose access to a 2nd weapon. Tomes count as a swap

    Your gonna make every guardian quit the game..this is gonna hurt pvp more then help it.

    Possibly. Luckily I dont make the decisions

  • Melech.4308Melech.4308 Member ✭✭✭

    @DragonSlayer.1087 said:
    ANETs favorite profession seem to keep dodging the trade off bullet. Maybe they can lose all their dodges.

    They're saving the next balance patch for guardians and no other profession crosses fingers and toes

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 27, 2020

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dh should lose their passive virtues. Fb should lose access to a 2nd weapon. Tomes count as a swap

    Your gonna make every guardian quit the game..this is gonna hurt pvp more then help it.

    All mesmer players most likely quit, which was their intention from the start. Now do the same with guard ! (followed with necro/rev) :D

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Guardian elite specs have always had a tradeoff - they lose the instant activation base virtues. Sure, that might not seem like a great loss, but there have certainly been times where I've felt having the basic virtue would have served better than a DH virtue, and sometimes even than a tome. If the base virtues aren't good enough and the elite spec replacements are too good, that's a general balancing issue, not a tradeoff issue. And we did just see substantial nerfs to tomes in competitive - nerfs which seem to be heavier than the baseline nerfs to damage and healing.

    A similar observation applies for necromancer: the tradeoff for playing a reaper or scourge is that you lose access to the core death shroud.

    It's worth keeping in mind that the tradeoffs, broadly speaking, aren't intended to be flat nerfs so much as giving you some incentive to go back to the core profession. Daredevil's Swipe, for instance, is intended as a sidegrade... but if you really want the longer range, it's an incentive to play core Thief. Now, I think they were heavy-handed with Mirage, but it might also only be temporary until they can come up with a tradeoff (which, again, might be a sidegrade rather than an out-and-out nerf) that can be applied in PvE as well.

    You know, Soulbeasts kept saying that their trade off was not having their pet out all the time and look at what happened :wink:

    I try to play everything, mostly to know what I'm talking about. Reaper Shroud absolutely does not feel like a trade off and a straight upgrade. Ditto with DH virtues and Tomes. What would be a true trade off? Given Anet's solutions the options typically include stat reductions, increased CD's, or adding something to the Core class.

    Would a 4th virtue be cool? Sure! Make it strong, something like an AoE power based attack on active, but on passive grants 1 stack of might (5s) every fifth attack for 10 targets, 2 stacks if traited.

    But seriously, what would be a better trade off for FB would for Tomes to share the weapon swap CD, but once you use all your pages you go back to your last equipped weapon. DH might get a stat hit instead frankly.

    Soulbeasts can have their pets out the entire time if they chose to, tho. This is not really a trade off. Before the removal of pet swap, Soulbeast was simply an add on on top. You can have your pet out all the time just like the ranger, but you get the CHOICE to fuse with your pet additionally, if you desire to.

    Therefore this is not really a trade off. You were not really giving up anything to get the additional option to fuse with your pet. Imagine a Reaper gets the Reaper shroud as an F2 skill instead of replacing the F1. If you use your life force for the Reaper shroud, then of course you won't have life force left to use the classic shroud as well. But you actually have the choice to use either, the reaper shroud or your classic shroud with the resources. It would be a flat upgrade. And Soulbeast has been exactly like this, they were not giving up anything before, they just got another option added.

    That was my point. It wasn't a trade off, but they kept trying to insist that it was when it was just a straight upgrade. DH Virtues and FB Tomes are straight upgrades.

    Not really. They're more powerful than the core virtues, yes, but they require more time investment. Dragonhunter virtues are full skills with animations that prevent you from using another skill at the same time and can be interrupted, and usually go on full cooldown when they do - naturally, they're going to be more powerful when they do trigger, to account for teh risk of interruption and that you're not performing another skill while you do it. Tomes have an even stronger effect, but over a longer period of time, and two of them almost lock you out of offensive actions altogether while they're in effect.

    There's a sliding scale from a relatively low effect with zero time investment, through a moderate to strong effect with a similar time investment to most skills, to a sustained effect that replaced your weapon for as long as it lasts.

    Instant activation is not to be scoffed at. A lot of the current balance pass was all about toning down instant activations for a reason. Core guardian virtues aren't going to spike someone down, but with the right traits you can get a lot of mileage out of core virtues (as just one example, Indomitable Courage works better with core Virtue of Courage, since there's no chance of it being interrupted before the Stability triggers, and if can be fired to cover another skill or to cover a stomp), and if you really need a panic button you can chain through all three of them as quickly as you can press the buttons if you need to.

    Now, I haven't played the recent patch much, but in the previous meta, a well-played core guardian could be just as dangerous as a well-played dragonhunter, and a darn sight less predictable (you know what to expect when you see a DH on the enemy team - when you see a core guardian, there are a couple of approaches they could be taking). Firebrands were pretty dominant, although it's unclear how much of that was simply that it's advantageous to have a support and Firebrand was the best support - nevertheless, while everyone's damage and nearly everyone's healing got reduced in the latest patch, firebrand had its numbers pared down more than the average. However, when scourge was dominant, ArenaNet didn't go looking for tradeoffs because scourge already had a tradeoff. So do the guardian elite specialisations. You could make the argument that they're getting more than they're giving up, but there is something they're giving up, so when it comes to intra-profession balancing the tradeoff is already there, it's just a matter of adjusting the numbers so that they're all reasonably equally attractive options rather than having a clear standout.

    And we've circled back to this, which is the very argument that soulbeasts were trying to make with their pets prior to the real trade off being imposed on them. I agree that Spellbreaker and Scourge had distinct tradeoffs at the time of creation, but FB and DH need more. No body wants a trade off for their profession. Dwayna knows I want core F1 back on Berserker and the toughness penalty gone. as an aside old Berserker had a 'tradeoff' in that it lost Core F1s while in Berserk mode, and that wasn't considered enough by Anet now was it? What ever it is you feel is the current trade off for FB and DH, it is not enough relative to what is gained, as was the case for Berserker, Druid, Scrapper, or Soulbeast (and they got off light tbh).

    You're completely missing the point, which @Sorem.9157 and others succinctly laid out:

    Soulbeast could, until this week, always choose to play identically to a core ranger. They had everything that core ranger had (apart from a third core traitline) and could just play like a regular ranger which has a few more options in its toolkit. Same applies to the original berserker, the original daredevil, the original chronomancer, and all the other elite specialisations that have been given tradeoffs.

    Dragonhunter and Firebrand never could. As soon as you slot either, the core virtues are gone. That's the tradeoff.

    You seem to be arguing that since the dragonhunter and firebrand virtues are apparently stronger, that the tradeoff doesn't matter... but this is a false equivalency. An easy tradeoff to accept because what you get is stronger than what you gave up is not the same as giving nothing up at all. (And I'd argue that the difference in strength is not as large as you seem to think. Instant activation opens up a lot of things you can do that you can't with DH or FB virtues.)

    Furthermore, I think it's reasonable to expect the elite specialisation mechanics to be a little bit stronger than the core mechanics, because there's one other tradeoff that often gets forgotten in these discussions - the core traitline that you could have taken instead of the elite specialisation. It's easy to overlook for some professions because for some professions giving up a third core traitline is often not giving up much, but guardian has so many inter-traitline synergies that pretty much whatever your build is, you could probably find a third core traitline that significantly enhances it. As a result, if you're not actively using the stuff the elite specialisation gives you, it's probably not your best option. Which is something I've seen in the meta: core guardians in the past season were about as common and probably more dangerous than dragonhunters (firebrands are a different issue, but like I've said, they just took a notable hit - we'll see how things go in the current meta, but if they're still dominant, that's a numbers balancing issue, not a lack of tradeoff issue).

    Similar observations apply regarding Necromancer, and core necromancer too has been seeing a comeback - not because a tradeoff was introduced, because they're already was one, but simply because reaper and scourge got pared back and core necromancer buffed up so they were brought back to a reasonably even footing.

  • FB is next due up at the Gallows now that mesmer is dead! :p

    As I said before be careful what you wish for.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't think DH need more of a trade-off than it already have. Maybe wings of resolve could bear an increase in CD up to 40 seconds, it does a bit to much (twice the heal, movement and leap finisher) for a CD similar to the core virtue.

    However I totally agree that FB need a trade-off, there is just to much power packed into the tomes. The removal of in combat weapon swap feel like it would be the proper thing to do, but it's only my opinion.

  • Lazze.9870Lazze.9870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 27, 2020

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Guardian elite specs have always had a tradeoff - they lose the instant activation base virtues. Sure, that might not seem like a great loss, but there have certainly been times where I've felt having the basic virtue would have served better than a DH virtue, and sometimes even than a tome. If the base virtues aren't good enough and the elite spec replacements are too good, that's a general balancing issue, not a tradeoff issue. And we did just see substantial nerfs to tomes in competitive - nerfs which seem to be heavier than the baseline nerfs to damage and healing.

    A similar observation applies for necromancer: the tradeoff for playing a reaper or scourge is that you lose access to the core death shroud.

    It's worth keeping in mind that the tradeoffs, broadly speaking, aren't intended to be flat nerfs so much as giving you some incentive to go back to the core profession. Daredevil's Swipe, for instance, is intended as a sidegrade... but if you really want the longer range, it's an incentive to play core Thief. Now, I think they were heavy-handed with Mirage, but it might also only be temporary until they can come up with a tradeoff (which, again, might be a sidegrade rather than an out-and-out nerf) that can be applied in PvE as well.

    You know, Soulbeasts kept saying that their trade off was not having their pet out all the time and look at what happened :wink:

    I try to play everything, mostly to know what I'm talking about. Reaper Shroud absolutely does not feel like a trade off and a straight upgrade. Ditto with DH virtues and Tomes. What would be a true trade off? Given Anet's solutions the options typically include stat reductions, increased CD's, or adding something to the Core class.

    Would a 4th virtue be cool? Sure! Make it strong, something like an AoE power based attack on active, but on passive grants 1 stack of might (5s) every fifth attack for 10 targets, 2 stacks if traited.

    But seriously, what would be a better trade off for FB would for Tomes to share the weapon swap CD, but once you use all your pages you go back to your last equipped weapon. DH might get a stat hit instead frankly.

    Soulbeasts can have their pets out the entire time if they chose to, tho. This is not really a trade off. Before the removal of pet swap, Soulbeast was simply an add on on top. You can have your pet out all the time just like the ranger, but you get the CHOICE to fuse with your pet additionally, if you desire to.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Soulbeast could, until this week, always choose to play identically to a core ranger. They had everything that core ranger had (apart from a third core traitline) and could just play like a regular ranger which has a few more options in its toolkit. Same applies to the original berserker, the original daredevil, the original chronomancer, and all the other elite specialisations that have been given tradeoffs.

    Except the "trade off" for running soulbeast but never merging is that you're stuck with a mediocre traitline.

    If you never intend on merging, you're better off with not running soulbeast in the first place. People blatantly ignore the fact that while the merge mechanic is just a simple add-on (let me just make that blatantly clear, because it is), everything else that comes with the spec is kinda meh. Including the weapon. Dolyak Stance is about the only good thing about it.

    Removal of pet(s) should have been done to druid, so they could actually revamp the spec to be a proper functional and viable support outside PvE with the trade off of not having a pet. Soulbeast on the other hand could have been permamerged with the option to swap between two merged pets, but at that point Anet would have pretty much been admitting that the pet mechanic is a failure, which it is.

  • Lazze.9870Lazze.9870 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Just take away their passive effects.

    Their actives are extremely strong, they don't really lose much from losing the passives except maybe for Burn builds and the passive Aegis.

    Ha! That would certainly kill DH dps builds in every mode. I think giving core an exclusive virtue would be better.

    Ye, buffing their favorite class instead of adding an actual trade off to its elite spec is probably the most likely thing Anet will do.

  • @Lazze.9870 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Just take away their passive effects.

    Their actives are extremely strong, they don't really lose much from losing the passives except maybe for Burn builds and the passive Aegis.

    Ha! That would certainly kill DH dps builds in every mode. I think giving core an exclusive virtue would be better.

    Ye, buffing their favorite class instead of adding an actual trade off to its elite spec is probably the most likely thing Anet will do.

    I feel like that would mess up the ‘trinity’ that is the virtues. It would be interesting what they would come up with for the guardian.

    They can make the cast times for tome skills higher. I mean if they’re goal is to promote less spammy gameplay, putting longer cast times on more powerful tome skills can make a difference.

    DH tho... idk. The thing is, equipping renewed focus negates all the increased cool downs. And that can make or break a 1v1 situation.

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 27, 2020

    They do have trade offs. However, for Firebrands the trade off is not nearly enough. Generally, elite specs end up having a stronger mechanic than the one that they give up. For example, reaper shroud is just better than core shroud. Though you do lose the ranged capability of core shroud. (I know core shroud is out of whack in PvP balance atm, but that will probably be hotfixed quickly.)

    I think that DH giving up core virtues for DH virtues is pretty equivalent to reaper giving up core shroud. Both are an increase in power, but it seems to be kinda reasonable. If you still believe that DH virtues are a bit too strong, I would argue that the core virtues should be buffed a bit because they are very bland. However, Firebrand is just ridiculous. You give up 3 mediocre skills and you almost get the equivalent of 3 shrouds. It's just insane and I don't know how the devs thought this was a good idea. The trade off is simply by far the most lopsided one. Anet either need to make you choose which tome you will be using, or they have to remove virtue passives and weapon swap. Either way, tomes would need a complete rebalancing so they can work under those circumstances.

  • @Lazze.9870 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Just take away their passive effects.

    Their actives are extremely strong, they don't really lose much from losing the passives except maybe for Burn builds and the passive Aegis.

    Ha! That would certainly kill DH dps builds in every mode. I think giving core an exclusive virtue would be better.

    Ye, buffing their favorite class instead of adding an actual trade off to its elite spec is probably the most likely thing Anet will do.

    Probably, I'd say leave the passive for DH but take it from FB if that became the choice.

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    They do have trade offs. However, for Firebrands the trade off is not nearly enough. Generally, elite specs end up having a stronger mechanic than the one that they give up. For example, reaper shroud is just better than core shroud. Though you do lose the ranged capability of core shroud. (I know core shroud is out of whack in PvP balance atm, but that will probably be hotfixed quickly.)

    I think that DH giving up core virtues for DH virtues is pretty equivalent to reaper giving up core shroud. Both are an increase in power, but it seems to be kinda reasonable. If you still believe that DH virtues are a bit too strong, I would argue that the core virtues should be buffed a bit because they are very bland. However, Firebrand is just ridiculous. You give up 3 mediocre skills and you almost get the equivalent of 3 shrouds. It's just insane and I don't know how the devs thought this was a good idea. The trade off is simply by far the most lopsided one. Anet either need to make you choose which tome you will be using, or they have to remove virtue passives and weapon swap. Either way, tomes would need a complete rebalancing so they can work under those circumstances.

    Pretty much this. I can see adding a 4th virtue to Core, and a strong one since the base virtues are okay-ish, locking DH and FB out of this 4th virtue, and either removing passives from FB, or putting weapon swap or tomes on a 5s CD when you equip a tome. Then you can say there is a legit tradeoff, a virtue was lost, and with the even more powerful tomes another more stringent tradeoff is there in that you can't play piano on your keyboard and spam everything in quick succession and have to be more tactical in your choices.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    Anet either need to make you choose which tome you will be using,

    Well, yeah I thought so as well. But it should have been done at the creation of the e-spec, now such idea is probably out of the window.

    or they have to remove virtue passives and weapon swap.

    Removing the passive is not really realistic, to many core traits are dedicated to the passive. Removing the weapon swap is probably the only thing realistic.

    The firebrand face the same issue in it's balancing than the scourge. The core traits force the balance team to keep things in e-spec with mechanisms very different from the core that should be discarded for balance's sake. To accomodate FB, the balance team would have to first rework traits pertaining to the core special mechanic, which mean that they would have to indirectly break the current balance of the core guardian and dragon hunter. Which is probably something that they don't want to do.

    This is the major issue that ANet's devs face with the concept of e-specs. The concept is ambitious and supposed to allow anything, but the core traits just ain't flexible enough for the concept and "break" as soon as they modify the core mechanism to heavily.

  • Lazze.9870Lazze.9870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 27, 2020

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Lazze.9870 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Just take away their passive effects.

    Their actives are extremely strong, they don't really lose much from losing the passives except maybe for Burn builds and the passive Aegis.

    Ha! That would certainly kill DH dps builds in every mode. I think giving core an exclusive virtue would be better.

    Ye, buffing their favorite class instead of adding an actual trade off to its elite spec is probably the most likely thing Anet will do.

    Probably, I'd say leave the passive for DH but take it from FB if that became the choice.

    Not entirely sure if you missed my sarcasm, but no, adding a 4th virtue to core guardian in order to create a trade off for firebrand is ridiculous. Firebrand itself needs balance.

    Although it wouldnt' surprise me if Anet did the 4th virtue thing, considering everything...

  • @Lazze.9870 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Lazze.9870 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Just take away their passive effects.

    Their actives are extremely strong, they don't really lose much from losing the passives except maybe for Burn builds and the passive Aegis.

    Ha! That would certainly kill DH dps builds in every mode. I think giving core an exclusive virtue would be better.

    Ye, buffing their favorite class instead of adding an actual trade off to its elite spec is probably the most likely thing Anet will do.

    Probably, I'd say leave the passive for DH but take it from FB if that became the choice.

    Not entirely sure if you missed my sarcasm, but no, adding a 4th virtue to core guardian in order to create a trade off for firebrand is ridiculous. Firebrand itself needs balance.

    Read the rest of my post. All tomes should go on CD when you equip one. That reduces the spam fest. If that is not enough then propose something else, perhaps a toughness penalty or vitality penalty while a tome is equipped?

  • Lazze.9870Lazze.9870 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Lazze.9870 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Lazze.9870 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Just take away their passive effects.

    Their actives are extremely strong, they don't really lose much from losing the passives except maybe for Burn builds and the passive Aegis.

    Ha! That would certainly kill DH dps builds in every mode. I think giving core an exclusive virtue would be better.

    Ye, buffing their favorite class instead of adding an actual trade off to its elite spec is probably the most likely thing Anet will do.

    Probably, I'd say leave the passive for DH but take it from FB if that became the choice.

    Not entirely sure if you missed my sarcasm, but no, adding a 4th virtue to core guardian in order to create a trade off for firebrand is ridiculous. Firebrand itself needs balance.

    Read the rest of my post. All tomes should go on CD when you equip one. That reduces the spam fest. If that is not enough then propose something else, perhaps a toughness penalty or vitality penalty while a tome is equipped?

    Well, that's not "your post", that's you quoting someone else. You're pretty much justifying the idea of a 4th virtue.

  • @Lazze.9870 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Lazze.9870 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Lazze.9870 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Just take away their passive effects.

    Their actives are extremely strong, they don't really lose much from losing the passives except maybe for Burn builds and the passive Aegis.

    Ha! That would certainly kill DH dps builds in every mode. I think giving core an exclusive virtue would be better.

    Ye, buffing their favorite class instead of adding an actual trade off to its elite spec is probably the most likely thing Anet will do.

    Probably, I'd say leave the passive for DH but take it from FB if that became the choice.

    Not entirely sure if you missed my sarcasm, but no, adding a 4th virtue to core guardian in order to create a trade off for firebrand is ridiculous. Firebrand itself needs balance.

    Read the rest of my post. All tomes should go on CD when you equip one. That reduces the spam fest. If that is not enough then propose something else, perhaps a toughness penalty or vitality penalty while a tome is equipped?

    Well, that's not "your post", that's you quoting someone else. You're pretty much justifying the idea of a 4th virtue.

    Keep reading, I also mentioned it.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dh should lose their passive virtues. Fb should lose access to a 2nd weapon. Tomes count as a swap

    Your gonna make every guardian quit the game..this is gonna hurt pvp more then help it.

    All mesmer players most likely quit, which was their intention from the start. Now do the same with guard ! (followed with necro/rev) :D

    I pretty much went to Destiny 2 where playing a high mobility tricky character (Void or Arc Hunter) is not only allowed but popular.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Genesis.5169 said:

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dh should lose their passive virtues. Fb should lose access to a 2nd weapon. Tomes count as a swap

    Your gonna make every guardian quit the game..this is gonna hurt pvp more then help it.

    All mesmer players most likely quit, which was their intention from the start. Now do the same with guard ! (followed with necro/rev) :D

    I pretty much went to Destiny 2 where playing a high mobility tricky character (Void or Arc Hunter) is not only allowed but popular.

    I played destiny 2 but ...overgrinded it and didnt log for a 2 month alrdy -_-
    3 professions with 969 power lvl and just abandoned. Mostly I played hunter and 95% of time I played with golden gun for BIG D.DAMAGE xD. At start I played with arcstrider because liked melee but later on... going melee is a suicide...

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lazze.9870 said:

    Soulbeast on the other hand could have been permamerged with the option to swap between two merged pets

    As a ranger/SB main, I would have hated this. Having the flexibility to swap pets AND swap in/out of merged mode really made the class work for me. I loved the synergy and the various options in the mix. Now, with the recent changes, not so much anymore.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lazze.9870 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Guardian elite specs have always had a tradeoff - they lose the instant activation base virtues. Sure, that might not seem like a great loss, but there have certainly been times where I've felt having the basic virtue would have served better than a DH virtue, and sometimes even than a tome. If the base virtues aren't good enough and the elite spec replacements are too good, that's a general balancing issue, not a tradeoff issue. And we did just see substantial nerfs to tomes in competitive - nerfs which seem to be heavier than the baseline nerfs to damage and healing.

    A similar observation applies for necromancer: the tradeoff for playing a reaper or scourge is that you lose access to the core death shroud.

    It's worth keeping in mind that the tradeoffs, broadly speaking, aren't intended to be flat nerfs so much as giving you some incentive to go back to the core profession. Daredevil's Swipe, for instance, is intended as a sidegrade... but if you really want the longer range, it's an incentive to play core Thief. Now, I think they were heavy-handed with Mirage, but it might also only be temporary until they can come up with a tradeoff (which, again, might be a sidegrade rather than an out-and-out nerf) that can be applied in PvE as well.

    You know, Soulbeasts kept saying that their trade off was not having their pet out all the time and look at what happened :wink:

    I try to play everything, mostly to know what I'm talking about. Reaper Shroud absolutely does not feel like a trade off and a straight upgrade. Ditto with DH virtues and Tomes. What would be a true trade off? Given Anet's solutions the options typically include stat reductions, increased CD's, or adding something to the Core class.

    Would a 4th virtue be cool? Sure! Make it strong, something like an AoE power based attack on active, but on passive grants 1 stack of might (5s) every fifth attack for 10 targets, 2 stacks if traited.

    But seriously, what would be a better trade off for FB would for Tomes to share the weapon swap CD, but once you use all your pages you go back to your last equipped weapon. DH might get a stat hit instead frankly.

    Soulbeasts can have their pets out the entire time if they chose to, tho. This is not really a trade off. Before the removal of pet swap, Soulbeast was simply an add on on top. You can have your pet out all the time just like the ranger, but you get the CHOICE to fuse with your pet additionally, if you desire to.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Soulbeast could, until this week, always choose to play identically to a core ranger. They had everything that core ranger had (apart from a third core traitline) and could just play like a regular ranger which has a few more options in its toolkit. Same applies to the original berserker, the original daredevil, the original chronomancer, and all the other elite specialisations that have been given tradeoffs.

    Except the "trade off" for running soulbeast but never merging is that you're stuck with a mediocre traitline.

    If you never intend on merging, you're better off with not running soulbeast in the first place. People blatantly ignore the fact that while the merge mechanic is just a simple add-on (let me just make that blatantly clear, because it is), everything else that comes with the spec is kinda meh. Including the weapon. Dolyak Stance is about the only good thing about it.

    Removal of pet(s) should have been done to druid, so they could actually revamp the spec to be a proper functional and viable support outside PvE with the trade off of not having a pet. Soulbeast on the other hand could have been permamerged with the option to swap between two merged pets, but at that point Anet would have pretty much been admitting that the pet mechanic is a failure, which it is.

    Like I've said, the inherent tradeoff of not having another core traitline is one that's often overlooked.

    Thing is, it's the case for guardian as well. Guardian core traitlines are pretty good, and like I said, they each have a lot of synergy within them with other traitlines.

    Firebrand? One full line of traits is supporting tomes. Another is about becoming a substitute for Chronomancer for quickness application in raids and world events. If you're not making heavy usage of tomes or building around throwing a lot of Quickness around, I can guarantee you you can find a better core traitline for what you are doing than Firebrand. Dragonhunter is a bit more versatile, but honestly, if you're packing Dragonhunter, you're doing it for the physical virtues, the traps, or the longbow (usually the traps) - if you're not, you can do better with another traitline. Possibly any core traitline.

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    They do have trade offs. However, for Firebrands the trade off is not nearly enough. Generally, elite specs end up having a stronger mechanic than the one that they give up. For example, reaper shroud is just better than core shroud. Though you do lose the ranged capability of core shroud. (I know core shroud is out of whack in PvP balance atm, but that will probably be hotfixed quickly.)

    I think that DH giving up core virtues for DH virtues is pretty equivalent to reaper giving up core shroud. Both are an increase in power, but it seems to be kinda reasonable. If you still believe that DH virtues are a bit too strong, I would argue that the core virtues should be buffed a bit because they are very bland. However, Firebrand is just ridiculous. You give up 3 mediocre skills and you almost get the equivalent of 3 shrouds. It's just insane and I don't know how the devs thought this was a good idea. The trade off is simply by far the most lopsided one. Anet either need to make you choose which tome you will be using, or they have to remove virtue passives and weapon swap. Either way, tomes would need a complete rebalancing so they can work under those circumstances.

    When I see this sort of thing, I kinda wonder if the person saying it has actually seen how strong instant activation core virtues can be in PvP scenarios.

    Consider Justice, for instance. With the right picks in Radiance and Virtues, you blind enemies within 240, gain light aura and retaliation, grant burning on the next hit to allies within 600, grant might to allies within 1200, immobilise the next enemy you hit, all without taking the place of another action or having a visual tell that will cause people to see what killed them and complain about it on the forum, all on a 17s recharge... which refreshes if you score a kill. If the enemy blocks or dodges, the charge remains until you do score a hit, unlike Spear of Justice. And, because it's instant activation and can be activated during another action for the blind, you can use that blind to cover for another action, including preventing stomp prevention during a stomp (which naturally recharges the skill) or simply as a panic button (remember the old Blinding Dissipation? Same principle).

    Given that Valor is pretty much stapled onto every guardian PvP build, if you're running DH or FB, you're not getting all this out of Justice, since you've given up Radiance, Virtues, or both to get the elite spec.

    Or let's consider Courage. Just off the Virtues traitline, you've given Protection to allies within 1200 and Aegis and three stacks of Stability to allies within 600... oh, and Retribution to yourself. All on a shorter cooldown than the passive's natural refresh time (but Indomitable Courage decreases that refresh time), and this isn't considering whatever additional effects might be tied onto the aegis. Sure, Dragonhunter and Firebrand Courage can do something similar, with extra benefits... but on a longer cooldown, and with a cast time. This means it can be interrupted. This means you can't use them mid-stomp. This means you can't use them reactively - generally, by the time you see an area CC effect going off it's too late with the elite specs, but with core guardian, if you react fast enough you can block it with either the aegis or the stacks of stability. It also means you can't use it while stomping, but have to spend time to activate it before stomping - with the core version, you can do it mid-stomp to get a lot of protection while stomping (and you can add Justice as well if you're using Radiance and it's ready). It's not quite as unstoppable as a mesmer Distortion stomp, but it's pretty much the next best thing... and it's on a shorter cooldown and doesn't require clones to be out to get the full effect.

    Resolve doesn't have much trait synergy to it, and Wings of Resolve certainly heals for more (although the gap isn't as big as it used to be)... but that 1s cast time can be fatal, especially since apart from removing Immobilise, the condition removal doesn't apply until the skill actually triggers. And since all the core virtues are instant activation, if you really need to you can chain Resolve with Courage (or a blind from Justice if running Radiance) while still fighting back with your other skills. And hey, if you REALLY need a reprieve, you can Renewed Focus for a few seconds of invulnerability and then do it all again, although obviously that involves blowing a fair few cooldowns. On the other hand, it also means splashing a fair few buffs to your allies.

    Seriously, the core guardian virtues might not be as flashy as DH virtues or tomes - but they do have their advantages which are lost when you pick up the elite specialisation, That's a tradeoff. The elite specialisation virtues are a bit stronger overall at baseline, but that's paid for by being locked into a traitline. The same is true for most other elite specialisations. Having access to Berserk or Full Counter is still more valuable than having core adrenaline mechanics for Warriors most of the time. Whatever you might think of Swipe versus Steal, the extra dodge mechanics on Daredevil more than make up for any shortfall there. And so on.

  • Sorem.9157Sorem.9157 Member ✭✭✭

    I love how these kids simply dodge every single reasonable argument about why the tradeoff is there and just keep having their separate discussion of how to best shove Firebrand because they think it is OP. Honestly, this is as arrogant and biased as it gets.

    I won't deny that Firebrand is over the top these last few days since the balance patch, but the meta has not yet had time to settle down. New builds are still being born. Most people are still running a similar or small variant build of what they already did pre-patch and amongst those, yes, Firebrand is one that got hit the less and thus rising about most others.

    Give it time before y'all flip the table and start acting like babies.

    And seriously, you wanna nerf DH? The kitten is your rating?

  • for fb make equipping tomes lock out utilities so its feasible to attack them and actually kill them or force them out with tome charges wasted. remove blind on truth mantra. honestly an extra 3k hp from force of will has always seemed a bit excessive but maybe that's just me.

    dh... lol. it doesn't need a trade off cuz its bad. same as renegade.

  • Cyric.7813Cyric.7813 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lazze.9870 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Guardian elite specs have always had a tradeoff - they lose the instant activation base virtues. Sure, that might not seem like a great loss, but there have certainly been times where I've felt having the basic virtue would have served better than a DH virtue, and sometimes even than a tome. If the base virtues aren't good enough and the elite spec replacements are too good, that's a general balancing issue, not a tradeoff issue. And we did just see substantial nerfs to tomes in competitive - nerfs which seem to be heavier than the baseline nerfs to damage and healing.

    A similar observation applies for necromancer: the tradeoff for playing a reaper or scourge is that you lose access to the core death shroud.

    It's worth keeping in mind that the tradeoffs, broadly speaking, aren't intended to be flat nerfs so much as giving you some incentive to go back to the core profession. Daredevil's Swipe, for instance, is intended as a sidegrade... but if you really want the longer range, it's an incentive to play core Thief. Now, I think they were heavy-handed with Mirage, but it might also only be temporary until they can come up with a tradeoff (which, again, might be a sidegrade rather than an out-and-out nerf) that can be applied in PvE as well.

    You know, Soulbeasts kept saying that their trade off was not having their pet out all the time and look at what happened :wink:

    I try to play everything, mostly to know what I'm talking about. Reaper Shroud absolutely does not feel like a trade off and a straight upgrade. Ditto with DH virtues and Tomes. What would be a true trade off? Given Anet's solutions the options typically include stat reductions, increased CD's, or adding something to the Core class.

    Would a 4th virtue be cool? Sure! Make it strong, something like an AoE power based attack on active, but on passive grants 1 stack of might (5s) every fifth attack for 10 targets, 2 stacks if traited.

    But seriously, what would be a better trade off for FB would for Tomes to share the weapon swap CD, but once you use all your pages you go back to your last equipped weapon. DH might get a stat hit instead frankly.

    Soulbeasts can have their pets out the entire time if they chose to, tho. This is not really a trade off. Before the removal of pet swap, Soulbeast was simply an add on on top. You can have your pet out all the time just like the ranger, but you get the CHOICE to fuse with your pet additionally, if you desire to.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Soulbeast could, until this week, always choose to play identically to a core ranger. They had everything that core ranger had (apart from a third core traitline) and could just play like a regular ranger which has a few more options in its toolkit. Same applies to the original berserker, the original daredevil, the original chronomancer, and all the other elite specialisations that have been given tradeoffs.

    Except the "trade off" for running soulbeast but never merging is that you're stuck with a mediocre traitline.

    If you never intend on merging, you're better off with not running soulbeast in the first place. People blatantly ignore the fact that while the merge mechanic is just a simple add-on (let me just make that blatantly clear, because it is), everything else that comes with the spec is kinda meh. Including the weapon. Dolyak Stance is about the only good thing about it.

    Removal of pet(s) should have been done to druid, so they could actually revamp the spec to be a proper functional and viable support outside PvE with the trade off of not having a pet. Soulbeast on the other hand could have been permamerged with the option to swap between two merged pets, but at that point Anet would have pretty much been admitting that the pet mechanic is a failure, which it is.

    ^ This

  • Rettan.9603Rettan.9603 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2020

    DH doesn't need more trade-off as it currently has. It's fine as it is and absolutely in line with core.

    FB is bad design and need a whole rework, not just nerfs or a trade-off (that it already has).

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2020

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    Reaper Shroud absolutely does not feel like a trade off and a straight upgrade.

    Reaper Shroud decays faster (5% per sec vs 3%) and Reaper Shroud is melee, while Death Shroud are all 1200/900 unit ranged attacks. I'd say that's a fair tradeoff.

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    That was my point. It wasn't a trade off, but they kept trying to insist that it was when it was just a straight upgrade. DH Virtues and FB Tomes are straight upgrades.

    As someone who prefers Power Guardian Zeal/Radiance/Virtues, I'll say that DH virtues are not straight upgrades in every circumstance. Justice and Resolve have cast times, Justice requires a target for activation, and Courage has a longer cooldown. Even if you ran Virtues traitline to buff them as a Core build might, those changes remain. Is that enough to justify it as a tradeoff? That is debatable, but they aren't simple direct upgrades.

    In WvW for example a Core Burn Guard can put our more burst / condi pressure, but being able to yoink a thief with F1 or retreat to the backline with F2 alone justifies running as a DH. In PvE though, Spear and Wings aren't really any 'better', but it's the damage modifiers in the traitlines that put Power DH higher than Core Guard on the DPS meter.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2020

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    Reaper Shroud absolutely does not feel like a trade off and a straight upgrade.

    Reaper Shroud decays faster (5% per sec vs 3%) and Reaper Shroud is melee, while Death Shroud are all 1200/900 unit ranged attacks. I'd say that's a fair tradeoff.

    Core shroud is weak outside of fear spam and sustain. If I wanted to range DPS on core I wouldn't enter shroud. Reapers Shroud has built in LF management and kills quicker, so the degen difference is barely felt. Saying this as someone who plays both core and Reaper.

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    That was my point. It wasn't a trade off, but they kept trying to insist that it was when it was just a straight upgrade. DH Virtues and FB Tomes are straight upgrades.

    As someone who prefers Power Guardian Zeal/Radiance/Virtues, I'll say that DH virtues are not straight upgrades in every circumstance. Justice and Resolve have cast times, Justice requires a target for activation, and Courage has a longer cooldown. Even if you ran Virtues traitline to buff them as a Core build might, those changes remain. Is that enough to justify it as a tradeoff? That is debatable, but they aren't simple direct upgrades.

    In WvW for example a Core Burn Guard can put our more burst / condi pressure, but being able to yoink a thief with F1 or retreat to the backline with F2 alone justifies running as a DH. In PvE though, Spear and Wings aren't really any 'better', but it's the damage modifiers in the traitlines that put Power DH higher than Core Guard on the DPS meter.

    Matter of preference on the altered play style then. I stand by my opinion on the matter. As others have stated both DH and FB need more of a trade-off even if you feel that they have one already. DH doesn't need much, but FB does.