When are we gonna see the trade offs for Firebrands and Dragonhunters???? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

When are we gonna see the trade offs for Firebrands and Dragonhunters????

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  • @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    Tomes are the real problem.
    I don't think there is a tradeoff to apply to 15 skills, Firebrand is pure Power Creep and needs a rework.

    Other classes like Elementalist and Engineer had to pay their "additional skill mechanics" (attunements and kits) by being unable to weapon swap in combat. Honestly, I think the most logical nerf for Firebrand would be to remove their weapon swap in combat as well.

    I can see that happening as well. Fairly strong justification as well.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    Tomes are the real problem.
    I don't think there is a tradeoff to apply to 15 skills, Firebrand is pure Power Creep and needs a rework.

    Other classes like Elementalist and Engineer had to pay their "additional skill mechanics" (attunements and kits) by being unable to weapon swap in combat. Honestly, I think the most logical nerf for Firebrand would be to remove their weapon swap in combat as well.

    I can see that happening as well. Fairly strong justification as well.

    Except they would still have 20 weapon skills. Remove 1 tome and make them unable to swap weapons, OR make them choose only 1 tome but they keep the weapon swap.

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dh should lose their passive virtues. Fb should lose access to a 2nd weapon. Tomes count as a swap

    This is a great idea. Especially if they make activating books without delay it would be a good trade off. Or they can make it like kits with long cooldowns.

  • @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    Tomes are the real problem.
    I don't think there is a tradeoff to apply to 15 skills, Firebrand is pure Power Creep and needs a rework.

    Other classes like Elementalist and Engineer had to pay their "additional skill mechanics" (attunements and kits) by being unable to weapon swap in combat. Honestly, I think the most logical nerf for Firebrand would be to remove their weapon swap in combat as well.

    The kits available to Elementalist or Engi are not comparable to the FB tomes, you can also remove a weapon, but the Tomes must be nerfed.
    Support, defense and attack nothing is missing, is exaggerated.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Guardian elite specs have always had a tradeoff - they lose the instant activation base virtues. Sure, that might not seem like a great loss, but there have certainly been times where I've felt having the basic virtue would have served better than a DH virtue, and sometimes even than a tome. If the base virtues aren't good enough and the elite spec replacements are too good, that's a general balancing issue, not a tradeoff issue. And we did just see substantial nerfs to tomes in competitive - nerfs which seem to be heavier than the baseline nerfs to damage and healing.

    A similar observation applies for necromancer: the tradeoff for playing a reaper or scourge is that you lose access to the core death shroud.

    It's worth keeping in mind that the tradeoffs, broadly speaking, aren't intended to be flat nerfs so much as giving you some incentive to go back to the core profession. Daredevil's Swipe, for instance, is intended as a sidegrade... but if you really want the longer range, it's an incentive to play core Thief. Now, I think they were heavy-handed with Mirage, but it might also only be temporary until they can come up with a tradeoff (which, again, might be a sidegrade rather than an out-and-out nerf) that can be applied in PvE as well.

    You know, Soulbeasts kept saying that their trade off was not having their pet out all the time and look at what happened :wink:

    I try to play everything, mostly to know what I'm talking about. Reaper Shroud absolutely does not feel like a trade off and a straight upgrade. Ditto with DH virtues and Tomes. What would be a true trade off? Given Anet's solutions the options typically include stat reductions, increased CD's, or adding something to the Core class.

    Would a 4th virtue be cool? Sure! Make it strong, something like an AoE power based attack on active, but on passive grants 1 stack of might (5s) every fifth attack for 10 targets, 2 stacks if traited.

    But seriously, what would be a better trade off for FB would for Tomes to share the weapon swap CD, but once you use all your pages you go back to your last equipped weapon. DH might get a stat hit instead frankly.

    Soulbeasts can have their pets out the entire time if they chose to, tho. This is not really a trade off. Before the removal of pet swap, Soulbeast was simply an add on on top. You can have your pet out all the time just like the ranger, but you get the CHOICE to fuse with your pet additionally, if you desire to.

    Therefore this is not really a trade off. You were not really giving up anything to get the additional option to fuse with your pet. Imagine a Reaper gets the Reaper shroud as an F2 skill instead of replacing the F1. If you use your life force for the Reaper shroud, then of course you won't have life force left to use the classic shroud as well. But you actually have the choice to use either, the reaper shroud or your classic shroud with the resources. It would be a flat upgrade. And Soulbeast has been exactly like this, they were not giving up anything before, they just got another option added.

    That was my point. It wasn't a trade off, but they kept trying to insist that it was when it was just a straight upgrade. DH Virtues and FB Tomes are straight upgrades.

    This is only true for courage. SoJ works only with power builds and you lose the ability to put fire on the target. Core condi guardian is stronger than any DH variant. IMO VoR is better than WoR, espically in PvE, since there is no cast time. To be fair, there is not that much of difference between DH and core. The reason why DH is ahead in PvE is cuz of more consistent, and slightly higher damage multiplayers in the DH line compared to virtues line. And core have been stronger than DH in PvP for at least 3 years now (though both have been mediocre for like a year now, till the most recent patch).

    FB, tomes lock weapons. That is pretty huge trade off. In addition, FB without healing power has bad survivability in PvP. ToC is great in PvP. Too many casts and not that useful skills in PvE. It was meant to be an instant block, not sit here and cast. Reminder, at PoF release FB was very weak due to tomes being undertuned. It is actually after the first balance patch that FB became strong. The tomes do not make FB over powered by design. It is the value of skills and CD of tomes that make that difference.

    In PvE, core guardian, power and condi, is one of the strongest among all core classes. FB is over performing in PvP, but that has much more to do with mantras, CC and Anet genius decision to make power damage useless. And some unwise balance decisions that power crept symbols, unnecessarily. It has very little to do with tomes. And so it has been for over a year.

  • @otto.5684 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Guardian elite specs have always had a tradeoff - they lose the instant activation base virtues. Sure, that might not seem like a great loss, but there have certainly been times where I've felt having the basic virtue would have served better than a DH virtue, and sometimes even than a tome. If the base virtues aren't good enough and the elite spec replacements are too good, that's a general balancing issue, not a tradeoff issue. And we did just see substantial nerfs to tomes in competitive - nerfs which seem to be heavier than the baseline nerfs to damage and healing.

    A similar observation applies for necromancer: the tradeoff for playing a reaper or scourge is that you lose access to the core death shroud.

    It's worth keeping in mind that the tradeoffs, broadly speaking, aren't intended to be flat nerfs so much as giving you some incentive to go back to the core profession. Daredevil's Swipe, for instance, is intended as a sidegrade... but if you really want the longer range, it's an incentive to play core Thief. Now, I think they were heavy-handed with Mirage, but it might also only be temporary until they can come up with a tradeoff (which, again, might be a sidegrade rather than an out-and-out nerf) that can be applied in PvE as well.

    You know, Soulbeasts kept saying that their trade off was not having their pet out all the time and look at what happened :wink:

    I try to play everything, mostly to know what I'm talking about. Reaper Shroud absolutely does not feel like a trade off and a straight upgrade. Ditto with DH virtues and Tomes. What would be a true trade off? Given Anet's solutions the options typically include stat reductions, increased CD's, or adding something to the Core class.

    Would a 4th virtue be cool? Sure! Make it strong, something like an AoE power based attack on active, but on passive grants 1 stack of might (5s) every fifth attack for 10 targets, 2 stacks if traited.

    But seriously, what would be a better trade off for FB would for Tomes to share the weapon swap CD, but once you use all your pages you go back to your last equipped weapon. DH might get a stat hit instead frankly.

    Soulbeasts can have their pets out the entire time if they chose to, tho. This is not really a trade off. Before the removal of pet swap, Soulbeast was simply an add on on top. You can have your pet out all the time just like the ranger, but you get the CHOICE to fuse with your pet additionally, if you desire to.

    Therefore this is not really a trade off. You were not really giving up anything to get the additional option to fuse with your pet. Imagine a Reaper gets the Reaper shroud as an F2 skill instead of replacing the F1. If you use your life force for the Reaper shroud, then of course you won't have life force left to use the classic shroud as well. But you actually have the choice to use either, the reaper shroud or your classic shroud with the resources. It would be a flat upgrade. And Soulbeast has been exactly like this, they were not giving up anything before, they just got another option added.

    That was my point. It wasn't a trade off, but they kept trying to insist that it was when it was just a straight upgrade. DH Virtues and FB Tomes are straight upgrades.

    This is only true for courage. SoJ works only with power builds and you lose the ability to put fire on the target. Core condi guardian is stronger than any DH variant. IMO VoR is better than WoR, espically in PvE, since there is no cast time. To be fair, there is not that much of difference between DH and core. The reason why DH is ahead in PvE is cuz of more consistent, and slightly higher damage multiplayers in the DH line compared to virtues line. And core have been stronger than DH in PvP for at least 3 years now (though both have been mediocre for like a year now, till the most recent patch).

    Stronger individual burns but fewer stacks.

    FB, tomes lock weapons. That is pretty huge trade off. In addition, FB without healing power has bad survivability in PvP. ToC is great in PvP. Too many casts and not that useful skills in PvE. It was meant to be an instant block, not sit here and cast. Reminder, at PoF release FB was very weak due to tomes being undertuned. It is actually after the first balance patch that FB became strong. The tomes do not make FB over powered by design. It is the value of skills and CD of tomes that make that difference.

    Same is true for engies and holos, either with kits or forge, and that is not considered a trade off.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 29, 2020

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Guardian elite specs have always had a tradeoff - they lose the instant activation base virtues. Sure, that might not seem like a great loss, but there have certainly been times where I've felt having the basic virtue would have served better than a DH virtue, and sometimes even than a tome. If the base virtues aren't good enough and the elite spec replacements are too good, that's a general balancing issue, not a tradeoff issue. And we did just see substantial nerfs to tomes in competitive - nerfs which seem to be heavier than the baseline nerfs to damage and healing.

    A similar observation applies for necromancer: the tradeoff for playing a reaper or scourge is that you lose access to the core death shroud.

    It's worth keeping in mind that the tradeoffs, broadly speaking, aren't intended to be flat nerfs so much as giving you some incentive to go back to the core profession. Daredevil's Swipe, for instance, is intended as a sidegrade... but if you really want the longer range, it's an incentive to play core Thief. Now, I think they were heavy-handed with Mirage, but it might also only be temporary until they can come up with a tradeoff (which, again, might be a sidegrade rather than an out-and-out nerf) that can be applied in PvE as well.

    You know, Soulbeasts kept saying that their trade off was not having their pet out all the time and look at what happened :wink:

    I try to play everything, mostly to know what I'm talking about. Reaper Shroud absolutely does not feel like a trade off and a straight upgrade. Ditto with DH virtues and Tomes. What would be a true trade off? Given Anet's solutions the options typically include stat reductions, increased CD's, or adding something to the Core class.

    Would a 4th virtue be cool? Sure! Make it strong, something like an AoE power based attack on active, but on passive grants 1 stack of might (5s) every fifth attack for 10 targets, 2 stacks if traited.

    But seriously, what would be a better trade off for FB would for Tomes to share the weapon swap CD, but once you use all your pages you go back to your last equipped weapon. DH might get a stat hit instead frankly.

    Soulbeasts can have their pets out the entire time if they chose to, tho. This is not really a trade off. Before the removal of pet swap, Soulbeast was simply an add on on top. You can have your pet out all the time just like the ranger, but you get the CHOICE to fuse with your pet additionally, if you desire to.

    Therefore this is not really a trade off. You were not really giving up anything to get the additional option to fuse with your pet. Imagine a Reaper gets the Reaper shroud as an F2 skill instead of replacing the F1. If you use your life force for the Reaper shroud, then of course you won't have life force left to use the classic shroud as well. But you actually have the choice to use either, the reaper shroud or your classic shroud with the resources. It would be a flat upgrade. And Soulbeast has been exactly like this, they were not giving up anything before, they just got another option added.

    That was my point. It wasn't a trade off, but they kept trying to insist that it was when it was just a straight upgrade. DH Virtues and FB Tomes are straight upgrades.

    This is only true for courage. SoJ works only with power builds and you lose the ability to put fire on the target. Core condi guardian is stronger than any DH variant. IMO VoR is better than WoR, espically in PvE, since there is no cast time. To be fair, there is not that much of difference between DH and core. The reason why DH is ahead in PvE is cuz of more consistent, and slightly higher damage multiplayers in the DH line compared to virtues line. And core have been stronger than DH in PvP for at least 3 years now (though both have been mediocre for like a year now, till the most recent patch).

    Stronger individual burns but fewer stacks.

    FB, tomes lock weapons. That is pretty huge trade off. In addition, FB without healing power has bad survivability in PvP. ToC is great in PvP. Too many casts and not that useful skills in PvE. It was meant to be an instant block, not sit here and cast. Reminder, at PoF release FB was very weak due to tomes being undertuned. It is actually after the first balance patch that FB became strong. The tomes do not make FB over powered by design. It is the value of skills and CD of tomes that make that difference.

    Same is true for engies and holos, either with kits or forge, and that is not considered a trade off.

    If you think DH works with condi GL to you buddy.

    The comparison with engi is... dumb. In the case of engi the kit is a different weapon, and is optional. The comparison is between instant cast core virtues and tomes. One is instant cast, the other requires cast to equip them and then casting again to get benefits. If you think this is not a trade off, you have an understanding issue. Performance is a different matter.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    This is only true for courage.

    It's not even true for courage. Shorter recharge and instant activation are both useful properties for a skill that grants boons that are usually used reactively, and/or to cover another action such as stomping. You can say that the DH virtues are generally better, but again, that's because you're spending much of a traitline on them. If we were to compare a DH with, say, Zeal and Radiance to a core guardian with Zeal, Radiance, and Virtues, I don't think it can be necessarily said that the DH virtues are objectively better. Now, if you have a DH with the Virtues traitline you get pretty good virtues, but at this point you've spent two out of three traitlines into getting better virtues - so you'd expect a strong result.

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    Tomes are the real problem.
    I don't think there is a tradeoff to apply to 15 skills, Firebrand is pure Power Creep and needs a rework.

    Other classes like Elementalist and Engineer had to pay their "additional skill mechanics" (attunements and kits) by being unable to weapon swap in combat. Honestly, I think the most logical nerf for Firebrand would be to remove their weapon swap in combat as well.

    Except that attunements and kits have, if anything, shorter cooldowns than weaponswaps (apart from tempests who just overloaded, and even then it's incredibly unlikely that a tempest will ever not have at least one attunement ready to swap to), so they can serve as a suitable replacement for weaponswaps. Tomes, on the other hand, have long cooldowns that don't start until you expend or use them, so they're not comparable. An elementalist or engineer can also stay in an attunement or kit indefinitely, while a firebrand will eventually run out of pages. So, if tomes worked like elementalist attunements or engineer kits: namely, that they had cooldowns of ten seconds or less, and that you could remain in one for as long as you wanted - then yeah, losing weaponswap might be a fair trade. Pretty sure that's not what people are pulling the torches and pitchforks out to do, though.

    As is, though? It'd be like suggesting that engineer lose its kits, but have its toolbelt skills replaced by elementalist weapon conjures. Except that engineer (and elementalist) weapons are designed with being non-weaponswap weapons in mind, and guardian weapons are not (which was, incidentally, the problem with the original revenant design: the only ground revenant weapon that really works as a non-weaponswap weapon is mace, and that's borderline).

    Bottom line is, there is a tradeoff. The core virtues are given up on taking an elite specialisation. You might say that what Firebrand gets out of it is worth more than it gives up, and that might be right - but if so, that's a "Firebrand stuff needs to be toned down" issue, not a tradeoff issue. The tradeoff, for all people try to write it off as "not significant enough", is there.

  • What a bunch of bad ideas. Guardian without weapon swap is unusable. Firebrand or not. If some other professions got broken due to some "trade-offs", I'm sorry for you. But destroying guardians so, all the professions are destroyed is not the answer. What about going back to what was already implemented, revert it, and try to find better ways to do the "trade-offs"......

  • Mortifer.2946Mortifer.2946 Member ✭✭
    edited March 1, 2020

    @alain.1659 said:

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dh should lose their passive virtues. Fb should lose access to a 2nd weapon. Tomes count as a swap

    This is a great idea. Especially if they make activating books without delay it would be a good trade off. Or they can make it like kits with long cooldowns.

    you do realze, that tome skills are only situational.... right? Basically what you want to happen is that Firebrand will become melee only. At least for me. I'm playing open world PvE, have axe plus shield and Staff on weapon swap.... i cannot imagine I wouldn't be able to use my ranged Staff. That's just crazy.
    At least ask for you mumbo jumbo in PVP, leave casual PvErs alone.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    This is only true for courage.

    It's not even true for courage. Shorter recharge and instant activation are both useful properties for a skill that grants boons that are usually used reactively, and/or to cover another action such as stomping. You can say that the DH virtues are generally better, but again, that's because you're spending much of a traitline on them. If we were to compare a DH with, say, Zeal and Radiance to a core guardian with Zeal, Radiance, and Virtues, I don't think it can be necessarily said that the DH virtues are objectively better. Now, if you have a DH with the Virtues traitline you get pretty good virtues, but at this point you've spent two out of three traitlines into getting better virtues - so you'd expect a strong result.

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    Tomes are the real problem.
    I don't think there is a tradeoff to apply to 15 skills, Firebrand is pure Power Creep and needs a rework.

    Other classes like Elementalist and Engineer had to pay their "additional skill mechanics" (attunements and kits) by being unable to weapon swap in combat. Honestly, I think the most logical nerf for Firebrand would be to remove their weapon swap in combat as well.

    Except that attunements and kits have, if anything, shorter cooldowns than weaponswaps (apart from tempests who just overloaded, and even then it's incredibly unlikely that a tempest will ever not have at least one attunement ready to swap to), so they can serve as a suitable replacement for weaponswaps. Tomes, on the other hand, have long cooldowns that don't start until you expend or use them, so they're not comparable. An elementalist or engineer can also stay in an attunement or kit indefinitely, while a firebrand will eventually run out of pages. So, if tomes worked like elementalist attunements or engineer kits: namely, that they had cooldowns of ten seconds or less, and that you could remain in one for as long as you wanted - then yeah, losing weaponswap might be a fair trade. Pretty sure that's not what people are pulling the torches and pitchforks out to do, though.

    As is, though? It'd be like suggesting that engineer lose its kits, but have its toolbelt skills replaced by elementalist weapon conjures. Except that engineer (and elementalist) weapons are designed with being non-weaponswap weapons in mind, and guardian weapons are not (which was, incidentally, the problem with the original revenant design: the only ground revenant weapon that really works as a non-weaponswap weapon is mace, and that's borderline).

    Bottom line is, there is a tradeoff. The core virtues are given up on taking an elite specialisation. You might say that what Firebrand gets out of it is worth more than it gives up, and that might be right - but if so, that's a "Firebrand stuff needs to be toned down" issue, not a tradeoff issue. The tradeoff, for all people try to write it off as "not significant enough", is there.

    While alot of what you say here makes sense, I would like you to consider one more thing: Anet has already shown that they are willing to install more than 1 trade off if the power level calls for it.

    I am talking about the scrapper. Scrapper has already a trade off by giving up his elite tool belt skill to get access to the Function Gyro on F5. When they reworked scrapper, they installed another trade off into the scrapper trait line, since chosing it will now reduce your vitality by 180, which means that scrapper will have 1800 less HP than an engineer.

    Sure, but let's tell the whole story - the vitality reduction came alongside ArenaNet deciding to give Scrapper a playstyle based on constantly renewing barrier as they fight, and the purpose of the health reduction was to keep their durability at a reasonable level even with the barrier. Now, it's not a move I particularly agree with, but the tradeoff for the sake of a tradeoff was the F5 - the vitality reduction came because they decided to give the scrapper something else, and that needed a balancing factor.

    Even putting that aside, you're still looking at the scrapper having two relatively light tradeoffs, while the "remove weaponswap" proposal would be the heaviest tradeoff in the game, particularly since guardian weapons aren't designed to be non-weaponswap weapons... and that would be on an elite specialisation which already has a tradeoff.

    And that's the bottom line, really - people are behaving like it doesn't have a tradeoff at all, when it does. If Firebrand is still too strong in the current meta, the answer is to nerf the relevant skills directly.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    This is only true for courage.

    It's not even true for courage. Shorter recharge and instant activation are both useful properties for a skill that grants boons that are usually used reactively, and/or to cover another action such as stomping. You can say that the DH virtues are generally better, but again, that's because you're spending much of a traitline on them. If we were to compare a DH with, say, Zeal and Radiance to a core guardian with Zeal, Radiance, and Virtues, I don't think it can be necessarily said that the DH virtues are objectively better. Now, if you have a DH with the Virtues traitline you get pretty good virtues, but at this point you've spent two out of three traitlines into getting better virtues - so you'd expect a strong result.

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    Tomes are the real problem.
    I don't think there is a tradeoff to apply to 15 skills, Firebrand is pure Power Creep and needs a rework.

    Other classes like Elementalist and Engineer had to pay their "additional skill mechanics" (attunements and kits) by being unable to weapon swap in combat. Honestly, I think the most logical nerf for Firebrand would be to remove their weapon swap in combat as well.

    Except that attunements and kits have, if anything, shorter cooldowns than weaponswaps (apart from tempests who just overloaded, and even then it's incredibly unlikely that a tempest will ever not have at least one attunement ready to swap to), so they can serve as a suitable replacement for weaponswaps. Tomes, on the other hand, have long cooldowns that don't start until you expend or use them, so they're not comparable. An elementalist or engineer can also stay in an attunement or kit indefinitely, while a firebrand will eventually run out of pages. So, if tomes worked like elementalist attunements or engineer kits: namely, that they had cooldowns of ten seconds or less, and that you could remain in one for as long as you wanted - then yeah, losing weaponswap might be a fair trade. Pretty sure that's not what people are pulling the torches and pitchforks out to do, though.

    As is, though? It'd be like suggesting that engineer lose its kits, but have its toolbelt skills replaced by elementalist weapon conjures. Except that engineer (and elementalist) weapons are designed with being non-weaponswap weapons in mind, and guardian weapons are not (which was, incidentally, the problem with the original revenant design: the only ground revenant weapon that really works as a non-weaponswap weapon is mace, and that's borderline).

    Bottom line is, there is a tradeoff. The core virtues are given up on taking an elite specialisation. You might say that what Firebrand gets out of it is worth more than it gives up, and that might be right - but if so, that's a "Firebrand stuff needs to be toned down" issue, not a tradeoff issue. The tradeoff, for all people try to write it off as "not significant enough", is there.

    While alot of what you say here makes sense, I would like you to consider one more thing: Anet has already shown that they are willing to install more than 1 trade off if the power level calls for it.

    I am talking about the scrapper. Scrapper has already a trade off by giving up his elite tool belt skill to get access to the Function Gyro on F5. When they reworked scrapper, they installed another trade off into the scrapper trait line, since chosing it will now reduce your vitality by 180, which means that scrapper will have 1800 less HP than an engineer.

    Sure, but let's tell the whole story - the vitality reduction came alongside ArenaNet deciding to give Scrapper a playstyle based on constantly renewing barrier as they fight, and the purpose of the health reduction was to keep their durability at a reasonable level even with the barrier. Now, it's not a move I particularly agree with, but the tradeoff for the sake of a tradeoff was the F5 - the vitality reduction came because they decided to give the scrapper something else, and that needed a balancing factor.

    Even putting that aside, you're still looking at the scrapper having two relatively light tradeoffs, while the "remove weaponswap" proposal would be the heaviest tradeoff in the game, particularly since guardian weapons aren't designed to be non-weaponswap weapons... and that would be on an elite specialisation which already has a tradeoff.

    And that's the bottom line, really - people are behaving like it doesn't have a tradeoff at all, when it does. If Firebrand is still too strong in the current meta, the answer is to nerf the relevant skills directly.

    You're writing very long, detailed post trying to defend an obviously OP spec in spvp and WvW. Sad. But what's even more sad, is that ranger will probably be nerfed first while braindead fb mains will spam blinds aegis stab condi cleanse and dazes for days while thinking they are amazing players. Very sad indeed.

  • doogal.9368doogal.9368 Member ✭✭

    Dwayna knows I want core F1 back on Berserker and the toughness penalty gone.

    I couldn't help it. My first thought was...."Hell yeah she does"
    LMAO

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    This is only true for courage.

    It's not even true for courage. Shorter recharge and instant activation are both useful properties for a skill that grants boons that are usually used reactively, and/or to cover another action such as stomping. You can say that the DH virtues are generally better, but again, that's because you're spending much of a traitline on them. If we were to compare a DH with, say, Zeal and Radiance to a core guardian with Zeal, Radiance, and Virtues, I don't think it can be necessarily said that the DH virtues are objectively better. Now, if you have a DH with the Virtues traitline you get pretty good virtues, but at this point you've spent two out of three traitlines into getting better virtues - so you'd expect a strong result.

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    Tomes are the real problem.
    I don't think there is a tradeoff to apply to 15 skills, Firebrand is pure Power Creep and needs a rework.

    Other classes like Elementalist and Engineer had to pay their "additional skill mechanics" (attunements and kits) by being unable to weapon swap in combat. Honestly, I think the most logical nerf for Firebrand would be to remove their weapon swap in combat as well.

    Except that attunements and kits have, if anything, shorter cooldowns than weaponswaps (apart from tempests who just overloaded, and even then it's incredibly unlikely that a tempest will ever not have at least one attunement ready to swap to), so they can serve as a suitable replacement for weaponswaps. Tomes, on the other hand, have long cooldowns that don't start until you expend or use them, so they're not comparable. An elementalist or engineer can also stay in an attunement or kit indefinitely, while a firebrand will eventually run out of pages. So, if tomes worked like elementalist attunements or engineer kits: namely, that they had cooldowns of ten seconds or less, and that you could remain in one for as long as you wanted - then yeah, losing weaponswap might be a fair trade. Pretty sure that's not what people are pulling the torches and pitchforks out to do, though.

    As is, though? It'd be like suggesting that engineer lose its kits, but have its toolbelt skills replaced by elementalist weapon conjures. Except that engineer (and elementalist) weapons are designed with being non-weaponswap weapons in mind, and guardian weapons are not (which was, incidentally, the problem with the original revenant design: the only ground revenant weapon that really works as a non-weaponswap weapon is mace, and that's borderline).

    Bottom line is, there is a tradeoff. The core virtues are given up on taking an elite specialisation. You might say that what Firebrand gets out of it is worth more than it gives up, and that might be right - but if so, that's a "Firebrand stuff needs to be toned down" issue, not a tradeoff issue. The tradeoff, for all people try to write it off as "not significant enough", is there.

    While alot of what you say here makes sense, I would like you to consider one more thing: Anet has already shown that they are willing to install more than 1 trade off if the power level calls for it.

    I am talking about the scrapper. Scrapper has already a trade off by giving up his elite tool belt skill to get access to the Function Gyro on F5. When they reworked scrapper, they installed another trade off into the scrapper trait line, since chosing it will now reduce your vitality by 180, which means that scrapper will have 1800 less HP than an engineer.

    Sure, but let's tell the whole story - the vitality reduction came alongside ArenaNet deciding to give Scrapper a playstyle based on constantly renewing barrier as they fight, and the purpose of the health reduction was to keep their durability at a reasonable level even with the barrier. Now, it's not a move I particularly agree with, but the tradeoff for the sake of a tradeoff was the F5 - the vitality reduction came because they decided to give the scrapper something else, and that needed a balancing factor.

    Even putting that aside, you're still looking at the scrapper having two relatively light tradeoffs, while the "remove weaponswap" proposal would be the heaviest tradeoff in the game, particularly since guardian weapons aren't designed to be non-weaponswap weapons... and that would be on an elite specialisation which already has a tradeoff.

    And that's the bottom line, really - people are behaving like it doesn't have a tradeoff at all, when it does. If Firebrand is still too strong in the current meta, the answer is to nerf the relevant skills directly.

    You're writing very long, detailed post trying to defend an obviously OP spec in spvp and WvW. Sad. But what's even more sad, is that ranger will probably be nerfed first while braindead fb mains will spam blinds aegis stab condi cleanse and dazes for days while thinking they are amazing players. Very sad indeed.

    It is indeed sad that many people lack comprehension and understanding of what the topic is and what they are posting about. Performance is one thing and trade-offs is another. Is FB currently over performing in pvp? Yes. Does it have trade-offs? Yes. They are not the same thing, and are not correlated.

  • -500 Power and Condition Damage on Firebrand. They're healers after all :#;)

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Elmo Benchwarmer.3025 said:
    -500 Power and Condition Damage on Firebrand. They're healers after all :#;)

    Well, Imbued Haste gives +150 Healing Power, +150 Condi Damage, and +150 Vitality if they have quickness on which they have NUMEROUS ways to apply. Seems to me like Imbued Haste itself needs a rework.

    Make it work only while a tome is equipped, +150 Healing Power +150 Condi Damage but -150 toughness.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Elmo Benchwarmer.3025 said:
    -500 Power and Condition Damage on Firebrand. They're healers after all :#;)

    Well, Imbued Haste gives +150 Healing Power, +150 Condi Damage, and +150 Vitality if they have quickness on which they have NUMEROUS ways to apply. Seems to me like Imbued Haste itself needs a rework.

    Make it work only while a tome is equipped, +150 Healing Power +150 Condi Damage but -150 toughness.

    It is 250 in PvE. And it does not factor at all in sPvP since quickness uptime is none existent.

    Btw, if FB uses core virtues instead of tomes, the effect will be close to zero. The issues in sPvP are concentrated in symbols, axe and mantra of truth. Buffing or nerfing tomes is not going to do much.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Elmo Benchwarmer.3025 said:
    -500 Power and Condition Damage on Firebrand. They're healers after all :#;)

    Well, Imbued Haste gives +150 Healing Power, +150 Condi Damage, and +150 Vitality if they have quickness on which they have NUMEROUS ways to apply. Seems to me like Imbued Haste itself needs a rework.

    Make it work only while a tome is equipped, +150 Healing Power +150 Condi Damage but -150 toughness.

    It is 250 in PvE. And it does not factor at all in sPvP since quickness uptime is none existent.

    Btw, if FB uses core virtues instead of tomes, the effect will be close to zero. The issues in sPvP are concentrated in symbols, axe and mantra of truth. Buffing or nerfing tomes is not going to do much.

    Yes but the discussion about trade-offs is more relevant for competitive play. For WvW? In a Zerg? Going to have that quickness.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Elmo Benchwarmer.3025 said:
    -500 Power and Condition Damage on Firebrand. They're healers after all :#;)

    Well, Imbued Haste gives +150 Healing Power, +150 Condi Damage, and +150 Vitality if they have quickness on which they have NUMEROUS ways to apply. Seems to me like Imbued Haste itself needs a rework.

    Make it work only while a tome is equipped, +150 Healing Power +150 Condi Damage but -150 toughness.

    It is 250 in PvE. And it does not factor at all in sPvP since quickness uptime is none existent.

    Btw, if FB uses core virtues instead of tomes, the effect will be close to zero. The issues in sPvP are concentrated in symbols, axe and mantra of truth. Buffing or nerfing tomes is not going to do much.

    Yes but the discussion about trade-offs is more relevant for competitive play. For WvW? In a Zerg? Going to have that quickness.

    Again, the trade offs do exist and always did for FB. Performance is a different issue. At PoF release, FB was under performing. Then It was significantly over performing, as support for a while and none existent as dps. It was a bit over performing before last balance patch, as support dps hybrid. And currently is significantly out performing In the same role. These are performance issues, mostly due to dev tardiness and oversight. It has little to do with class design issues. And evident by fluctuation in performance (In PvE too) the issues have to do with balance not design.

    And that is the point. This thread premise is out right false. It would be much more useful to list the actual issue and how to address them. There were a couple of good thread in sPvP discussing the issues. Also, while not directly implied, this section of the forums, tend to generally discuss PvE. everything discussed here, having value or not, is pretty much null.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2020

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Elmo Benchwarmer.3025 said:
    -500 Power and Condition Damage on Firebrand. They're healers after all :#;)

    Well, Imbued Haste gives +150 Healing Power, +150 Condi Damage, and +150 Vitality if they have quickness on which they have NUMEROUS ways to apply. Seems to me like Imbued Haste itself needs a rework.

    Make it work only while a tome is equipped, +150 Healing Power +150 Condi Damage but -150 toughness.

    Toughness drop while a tome is equipped would make a lot of sense - somebody using a tome (even in the form of floating magical pages) is probably not going to be able to defend themselves as effectively as someone wielding regular weapons. If that's problematic for raids, it could be a straight "take X% more damage" (are there any raid setups using a firebrand as main tank at the moment?). Making "target the firebrand!" a more viable tactic would certainly be appropriate.

    I'd probably roll this into Purity of Word rather than Imbued Haste, though. I'd also say that this is a direct nerf to tomes rather than a tradeoff - which is pretty much what I've been saying all along. Guardian elite specialisations already have a tradeoff - if they're overperforming, this is a separate issue that can be resolved through direct nerfs.

    (Honestly, I like this one. It directly addresses the core problem of the Firebrand being able to keep everyone else up while also being tough as nails itself.)

    @bigo.9037 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    This is only true for courage.

    It's not even true for courage. Shorter recharge and instant activation are both useful properties for a skill that grants boons that are usually used reactively, and/or to cover another action such as stomping. You can say that the DH virtues are generally better, but again, that's because you're spending much of a traitline on them. If we were to compare a DH with, say, Zeal and Radiance to a core guardian with Zeal, Radiance, and Virtues, I don't think it can be necessarily said that the DH virtues are objectively better. Now, if you have a DH with the Virtues traitline you get pretty good virtues, but at this point you've spent two out of three traitlines into getting better virtues - so you'd expect a strong result.

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Revolution.5409 said:
    Tomes are the real problem.
    I don't think there is a tradeoff to apply to 15 skills, Firebrand is pure Power Creep and needs a rework.

    Other classes like Elementalist and Engineer had to pay their "additional skill mechanics" (attunements and kits) by being unable to weapon swap in combat. Honestly, I think the most logical nerf for Firebrand would be to remove their weapon swap in combat as well.

    Except that attunements and kits have, if anything, shorter cooldowns than weaponswaps (apart from tempests who just overloaded, and even then it's incredibly unlikely that a tempest will ever not have at least one attunement ready to swap to), so they can serve as a suitable replacement for weaponswaps. Tomes, on the other hand, have long cooldowns that don't start until you expend or use them, so they're not comparable. An elementalist or engineer can also stay in an attunement or kit indefinitely, while a firebrand will eventually run out of pages. So, if tomes worked like elementalist attunements or engineer kits: namely, that they had cooldowns of ten seconds or less, and that you could remain in one for as long as you wanted - then yeah, losing weaponswap might be a fair trade. Pretty sure that's not what people are pulling the torches and pitchforks out to do, though.

    As is, though? It'd be like suggesting that engineer lose its kits, but have its toolbelt skills replaced by elementalist weapon conjures. Except that engineer (and elementalist) weapons are designed with being non-weaponswap weapons in mind, and guardian weapons are not (which was, incidentally, the problem with the original revenant design: the only ground revenant weapon that really works as a non-weaponswap weapon is mace, and that's borderline).

    Bottom line is, there is a tradeoff. The core virtues are given up on taking an elite specialisation. You might say that what Firebrand gets out of it is worth more than it gives up, and that might be right - but if so, that's a "Firebrand stuff needs to be toned down" issue, not a tradeoff issue. The tradeoff, for all people try to write it off as "not significant enough", is there.

    While alot of what you say here makes sense, I would like you to consider one more thing: Anet has already shown that they are willing to install more than 1 trade off if the power level calls for it.

    I am talking about the scrapper. Scrapper has already a trade off by giving up his elite tool belt skill to get access to the Function Gyro on F5. When they reworked scrapper, they installed another trade off into the scrapper trait line, since chosing it will now reduce your vitality by 180, which means that scrapper will have 1800 less HP than an engineer.

    Sure, but let's tell the whole story - the vitality reduction came alongside ArenaNet deciding to give Scrapper a playstyle based on constantly renewing barrier as they fight, and the purpose of the health reduction was to keep their durability at a reasonable level even with the barrier. Now, it's not a move I particularly agree with, but the tradeoff for the sake of a tradeoff was the F5 - the vitality reduction came because they decided to give the scrapper something else, and that needed a balancing factor.

    Even putting that aside, you're still looking at the scrapper having two relatively light tradeoffs, while the "remove weaponswap" proposal would be the heaviest tradeoff in the game, particularly since guardian weapons aren't designed to be non-weaponswap weapons... and that would be on an elite specialisation which already has a tradeoff.

    And that's the bottom line, really - people are behaving like it doesn't have a tradeoff at all, when it does. If Firebrand is still too strong in the current meta, the answer is to nerf the relevant skills directly.

    You're writing very long, detailed post trying to defend an obviously OP spec in spvp and WvW. Sad. But what's even more sad, is that ranger will probably be nerfed first while braindead fb mains will spam blinds aegis stab condi cleanse and dazes for days while thinking they are amazing players. Very sad indeed.

    Nice ad hominem. I'd show you my PvP piechart, but the new forums don't seem to like images hosted on Google Drive.

    Suffice it to say that for the past two seasons I've mostly been playing revenant, and I've been keeping an eye open for a ranger or warrior build I enjoy so I can collect the full set of profession champion titles. There is a significant blue portion in there, to be sure, but most of it was pre-HoT - when I talk about what can be done with core virtues, I'm speaking from experience. Firebrand could be boonsmited (oh, the irony) out of competitive modes altogether and it'd be no skin off my nose. Heck, it would be nice to stop seeing "they have a FB and we don't, well, this is probably going to suck" matches.

    But I don't want to see firebrand get ruined in every mode through some heavy-handed "tradeoff", where some of the suggestions seem to be motivated by sour grapes, on a profession which has always had a tradeoff to the elite specs. Now, some of the other tradeoffs have definitely been harsher than they need to be (I sense this thread has mostly been inspired by the recent soulbeast tradeoff, but what mesmers received... ouch), but they at least started from a point where there genuinely was no tradeoff apart from the opportunity cost of a core traitline. Guardians and necromancers have had a tradeoff from the beginning.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think everyone agrees to remove FB's weapon swap and make tomes count as weapon swap. Let's do that. Balancing tomes comes next.

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    I think everyone agrees to remove FB's weapon swap and make tomes count as weapon swap. Let's do that. Balancing tomes comes next.

    I don’t agree with that so you can back off with that “everyone” kitten.

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Substance E.4852 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Guardian elite specs have always had a tradeoff - they lose the instant activation base virtues. Sure, that might not seem like a great loss, but there have certainly been times where I've felt having the basic virtue would have served better than a DH virtue, and sometimes even than a tome. If the base virtues aren't good enough and the elite spec replacements are too good, that's a general balancing issue, not a tradeoff issue. And we did just see substantial nerfs to tomes in competitive - nerfs which seem to be heavier than the baseline nerfs to damage and healing.

    A similar observation applies for necromancer: the tradeoff for playing a reaper or scourge is that you lose access to the core death shroud.

    It's worth keeping in mind that the tradeoffs, broadly speaking, aren't intended to be flat nerfs so much as giving you some incentive to go back to the core profession. Daredevil's Swipe, for instance, is intended as a sidegrade... but if you really want the longer range, it's an incentive to play core Thief. Now, I think they were heavy-handed with Mirage, but it might also only be temporary until they can come up with a tradeoff (which, again, might be a sidegrade rather than an out-and-out nerf) that can be applied in PvE as well.

    You know, Soulbeasts kept saying that their trade off was not having their pet out all the time and look at what happened :wink:

    I try to play everything, mostly to know what I'm talking about. Reaper Shroud absolutely does not feel like a trade off and a straight upgrade. Ditto with DH virtues and Tomes. What would be a true trade off? Given Anet's solutions the options typically include stat reductions, increased CD's, or adding something to the Core class.

    Would a 4th virtue be cool? Sure! Make it strong, something like an AoE power based attack on active, but on passive grants 1 stack of might (5s) every fifth attack for 10 targets, 2 stacks if traited.

    But seriously, what would be a better trade off for FB would for Tomes to share the weapon swap CD, but once you use all your pages you go back to your last equipped weapon. DH might get a stat hit instead frankly.

    Soulbeasts can have their pets out the entire time if they chose to, tho. This is not really a trade off. Before the removal of pet swap, Soulbeast was simply an add on on top. You can have your pet out all the time just like the ranger, but you get the CHOICE to fuse with your pet additionally, if you desire to.

    Therefore this is not really a trade off. You were not really giving up anything to get the additional option to fuse with your pet. Imagine a Reaper gets the Reaper shroud as an F2 skill instead of replacing the F1. If you use your life force for the Reaper shroud, then of course you won't have life force left to use the classic shroud as well. But you actually have the choice to use either, the reaper shroud or your classic shroud with the resources. It would be a flat upgrade. And Soulbeast has been exactly like this, they were not giving up anything before, they just got another option added.

    That was my point. It wasn't a trade off, but they kept trying to insist that it was when it was just a straight upgrade. DH Virtues and FB Tomes are straight upgrades.

    This is only true for courage. SoJ works only with power builds and you lose the ability to put fire on the target. Core condi guardian is stronger than any DH variant. IMO VoR is better than WoR, espically in PvE, since there is no cast time. To be fair, there is not that much of difference between DH and core. The reason why DH is ahead in PvE is cuz of more consistent, and slightly higher damage multiplayers in the DH line compared to virtues line. And core have been stronger than DH in PvP for at least 3 years now (though both have been mediocre for like a year now, till the most recent patch).

    Stronger individual burns but fewer stacks.

    FB, tomes lock weapons. That is pretty huge trade off. In addition, FB without healing power has bad survivability in PvP. ToC is great in PvP. Too many casts and not that useful skills in PvE. It was meant to be an instant block, not sit here and cast. Reminder, at PoF release FB was very weak due to tomes being undertuned. It is actually after the first balance patch that FB became strong. The tomes do not make FB over powered by design. It is the value of skills and CD of tomes that make that difference.

    Same is true for engies and holos, either with kits or forge, and that is not considered a trade off.

    If you think DH works with condi GL to you buddy.

    Have you not seen the Burn DH build?

    The comparison with engi is... dumb. In the case of engi the kit is a different weapon, and is optional. The comparison is between instant cast core virtues and tomes. One is instant cast, the other requires cast to equip them and then casting again to get benefits. If you think this is not a trade off, you have an understanding issue. Performance is a different matter.

    The comparison to another equipable weapon set of skills is fairly spot on.

    Druid loses a massive chunk of their pet's health and damage to access a new espec skill bar

    There's 0 reason Guardian should get a pass other than people not wanting their favorite class to join the special table with the rest of us

    and in WvW you just see Druids everywhere right? Oh, wait.....no you don’t.

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    I think everyone agrees to remove FB's weapon swap and make tomes count as weapon swap. Let's do that. Balancing tomes comes next.

    Since the comparison is to Engies and Elems, sure, let’s remove weapon swap, but give the tomes no CDs or maybe just 4 second CDs. Sure makes since to me...

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Firebrand just took a pretty heavy nerf to its sustain in competitive modes. Let's put the torches and pitchforks away until we see how that shakes out, shall we?

  • Substance E.4852Substance E.4852 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:
    and in WvW you just see Druids everywhere right? Oh, wait.....no you don’t.

    Yes, because Ranger has been trash in zergs since day 1 while Guardian has been absolutely essential in zergs since day 1

  • Strider.7849Strider.7849 Member ✭✭✭

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dh should lose their passive virtues. Fb should lose access to a 2nd weapon. Tomes count as a swap

    I like this idea, and yeah there needs to be a trade off for guardian, right now there isn't.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Substance E.4852 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Guardian elite specs have always had a tradeoff - they lose the instant activation base virtues. Sure, that might not seem like a great loss, but there have certainly been times where I've felt having the basic virtue would have served better than a DH virtue, and sometimes even than a tome. If the base virtues aren't good enough and the elite spec replacements are too good, that's a general balancing issue, not a tradeoff issue. And we did just see substantial nerfs to tomes in competitive - nerfs which seem to be heavier than the baseline nerfs to damage and healing.

    A similar observation applies for necromancer: the tradeoff for playing a reaper or scourge is that you lose access to the core death shroud.

    It's worth keeping in mind that the tradeoffs, broadly speaking, aren't intended to be flat nerfs so much as giving you some incentive to go back to the core profession. Daredevil's Swipe, for instance, is intended as a sidegrade... but if you really want the longer range, it's an incentive to play core Thief. Now, I think they were heavy-handed with Mirage, but it might also only be temporary until they can come up with a tradeoff (which, again, might be a sidegrade rather than an out-and-out nerf) that can be applied in PvE as well.

    You know, Soulbeasts kept saying that their trade off was not having their pet out all the time and look at what happened :wink:

    I try to play everything, mostly to know what I'm talking about. Reaper Shroud absolutely does not feel like a trade off and a straight upgrade. Ditto with DH virtues and Tomes. What would be a true trade off? Given Anet's solutions the options typically include stat reductions, increased CD's, or adding something to the Core class.

    Would a 4th virtue be cool? Sure! Make it strong, something like an AoE power based attack on active, but on passive grants 1 stack of might (5s) every fifth attack for 10 targets, 2 stacks if traited.

    But seriously, what would be a better trade off for FB would for Tomes to share the weapon swap CD, but once you use all your pages you go back to your last equipped weapon. DH might get a stat hit instead frankly.

    Soulbeasts can have their pets out the entire time if they chose to, tho. This is not really a trade off. Before the removal of pet swap, Soulbeast was simply an add on on top. You can have your pet out all the time just like the ranger, but you get the CHOICE to fuse with your pet additionally, if you desire to.

    Therefore this is not really a trade off. You were not really giving up anything to get the additional option to fuse with your pet. Imagine a Reaper gets the Reaper shroud as an F2 skill instead of replacing the F1. If you use your life force for the Reaper shroud, then of course you won't have life force left to use the classic shroud as well. But you actually have the choice to use either, the reaper shroud or your classic shroud with the resources. It would be a flat upgrade. And Soulbeast has been exactly like this, they were not giving up anything before, they just got another option added.

    That was my point. It wasn't a trade off, but they kept trying to insist that it was when it was just a straight upgrade. DH Virtues and FB Tomes are straight upgrades.

    This is only true for courage. SoJ works only with power builds and you lose the ability to put fire on the target. Core condi guardian is stronger than any DH variant. IMO VoR is better than WoR, espically in PvE, since there is no cast time. To be fair, there is not that much of difference between DH and core. The reason why DH is ahead in PvE is cuz of more consistent, and slightly higher damage multiplayers in the DH line compared to virtues line. And core have been stronger than DH in PvP for at least 3 years now (though both have been mediocre for like a year now, till the most recent patch).

    Stronger individual burns but fewer stacks.

    FB, tomes lock weapons. That is pretty huge trade off. In addition, FB without healing power has bad survivability in PvP. ToC is great in PvP. Too many casts and not that useful skills in PvE. It was meant to be an instant block, not sit here and cast. Reminder, at PoF release FB was very weak due to tomes being undertuned. It is actually after the first balance patch that FB became strong. The tomes do not make FB over powered by design. It is the value of skills and CD of tomes that make that difference.

    Same is true for engies and holos, either with kits or forge, and that is not considered a trade off.

    If you think DH works with condi GL to you buddy.

    Have you not seen the Burn DH build?

    The comparison with engi is... dumb. In the case of engi the kit is a different weapon, and is optional. The comparison is between instant cast core virtues and tomes. One is instant cast, the other requires cast to equip them and then casting again to get benefits. If you think this is not a trade off, you have an understanding issue. Performance is a different matter.

    The comparison to another equipable weapon set of skills is fairly spot on.

    Druid loses a massive chunk of their pet's health and damage to access a new espec skill bar

    There's 0 reason Guardian should get a pass other than people not wanting their favorite class to join the special table with the rest of us

    and in WvW you just see Druids everywhere right? Oh, wait.....no you don’t.

    You know I actually see them while out roaming. The good Ranger players play them. They play keep away and patiently burn through your stunbreaks and condi clears then drop about 20 stacks of bleed on you along with poison.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider.7849 said:

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dh should lose their passive virtues. Fb should lose access to a 2nd weapon. Tomes count as a swap

    I like this idea, and yeah there needs to be a trade off for guardian, right now there isn't.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Virtue_of_Justice
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Virtue_of_Resolve
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Virtue_of_Courage

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dh should lose their passive virtues. Fb should lose access to a 2nd weapon. Tomes count as a swap

    I like this idea, and yeah there needs to be a trade off for guardian, right now there isn't.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Virtue_of_Justice
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Virtue_of_Resolve
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Virtue_of_Courage

    I agree that there is a trade off technically. Question is if this trade off is big enough to warrant the access to tomes.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2020

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dh should lose their passive virtues. Fb should lose access to a 2nd weapon. Tomes count as a swap

    I like this idea, and yeah there needs to be a trade off for guardian, right now there isn't.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Virtue_of_Justice
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Virtue_of_Resolve
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Virtue_of_Courage

    I agree that there is a trade off technically. Question is if this trade off is big enough to warrant the access to tomes.

    Which is something I've discussed previously in this thread. I think the core virtues are being seriously underrated by people, and that suggesting that losing weaponswap is a fair trade for tomes is fundamentally misrepresenting how tomes actually operate. (Namely, that they're more like old-style Elementalist weapon conjures than attunements or kits.) Not to mention that attunements and kits also don't require locking you into a traitline.

    Like has been said a couple of times, if tomes lasted as long as you wanted to remain in them and had a recharge of <10s after dropping out of them, then they'd be the equivalent of attunements or kits. But they don't. They have a maximum of eight uses (with a trait) and long recharges before they can be used again (apart from using Tome of Justice with Radiance, and that ends up being a pretty specific build) and have a cast time that can be interrupted (albeit a short one, so admittedly it's hard to do deliberately).

    However, if this far into the thread someone is going to post something so categorically wrong as the claim that guardian doesn't have a tradeoff, I'm not going to bother rehashing arguments that clearly weren't read the first time around, I'm just going to post the things that guardians trade away when taking an elite specialisation.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:
    I agree that there is a trade off technically. Question is if this trade off is big enough to warrant the access to tomes.

    it's difficult to balance because:
    1. The advantage of core is that activating a virtue is instant
    2. Firebrand tomes gives you access to five skills rather than just one, and one can choose which ones to use.

    The tradeoff would appear to be higher cooldowns, and being unable to attack while wearing a tome. Yet these tomes are so powerful, that they've gone through multiple nerfs... when was the last time a core virtue needed a nerf?

    At this rate, tomes might end up nerfed into oblivion. Would it be possible for a tome to only be useful if speced for it? If the build has no healing power, then f2 is pointless to use; no concentration? No point to f3. No condition damage? Don't pop f1.

    At this rate I'd rather make only one tome available to firebrand, but that would cause all sorts of issues for traits meant for specific virtues.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think a large part of the problem is that people who haven't played a fair amount of core Guardian tend to underestimate the effect they can have because they aren't flashy. To paraphrase a tongue-in-cheek comment I made earlier in this thread: "Best of all, your opponent doesn't see the effect of the core virtues directly so they don't go to the forums demanding for them to get nerfed!"

    Being a bit more serious, though, I think people are judging core virtues by the standards of tomes and DH virtues, and of course they're going to come up short when judged on the other skill's terms. However, that doesn't mean that they're explicitly worse (or, worse when the opportunity cost for taking FB or DH is taken into account). Consider my earlier comparison of tomes to elementalist conjures. Core virtues, by a similar metric, can be compared to shouts - activating them, especially when supported by traits, instantaneously provides buffs to allies within range, possibly also including condition removal from allies or application to enemies. If you total up all the things a conjured weapon could do, then yeah, the conjured weapon looks better... but which do you actually see tempests using more often? A sufficiently loaded instantaneous or near-instantaneous effect can be more useful than something that replaces your whole bar until you drop it or use it up, regardless of how much more versatility the latter has on paper.

    Similar comments could be made with DH virtues, which could be compared to warrior physical skills. Bull's Charge and Rampage get a lot of use among warriors at the moment, but shouts are also pretty popular.

    The complicating factor when it comes to tomes is that they have three different functions (broadly speaking, damage, healing, and non-healing support) and they're all on your bar at once. You don't want to make any tome so reliant on investment that without that investment it's a button that you just never want to press, but on the other hand, you don't want to end up making a profession that can do everything either.

    Still, I think a litmus test that's being ignored is that core guardian has been a reasonably common sight in sPvP for a while. Perhaps not as much as firebrand has been, but to be perfectly honest? I haven't seen a firebrand I was impressed by in PvP since yesterday's patch. There's more than one way to knock down an overperforming build.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    And you're paying a traitline for that.

    With a bit of investment in Virtues, base Courage is an instant that not only gives allies Aegis like the untraited virtue, but also protection and stability - and grants the guardian Retribution on top. And because it's instant activation, this can be done immediately with no tell, covering some other action! What's more, it's not only instant activation and therefore uninterruptible, but is itself a stunbreak, meaning that the enemy can't do squat to stop you from doing this!

    Sure, the elite mantra can do some of this, and on a shorter recharge if you don't have to fire the final shot, but also a shorter duration and that's taking up your elite slot.

    Meanwhile, Resolve is granting regeneration and three condi cleanses (five to the guardian) in addition to the heal and, oh, there's that Retribution again. Justice off Virtues alone is just a bit of might and, again, self-retaliation... you need Radiance to really pump that up. (And using the Guardian's condition damage instead of the recipient is only an advantage if you've specced conditions yourself).

    Of course, I'm aware that Firebrand can still take Virtues... but at that point, they've got two traitlines spoken for, and guardian traitlines are good enough that you miss every one you don't have, at least in competitive modes.

    It's also not just the benefits of instantaneous activation itself, but the action economy - or, to put it another way, the opportunity cost of what you'd be doing if you didn't have a tome out.

    You're trading an instantaneous effect, which can be quite strong with appropriate traits, to an effect which takes several seconds to unload all its abilities. In that time, you're not getting off your regular weapon attacks or whatever else you'd be doing if you didn't have a tome out (and having Resolve or Courage out means that you're doing basically no damage unless you have a damaging mantra, and those only have a limited number of shots). You can't compare core virtues to tomes directly, because core virtues don't interrupt your rotation at all while tomes almost completely replace it - you have to compare core virtues plus whatever skills the player would be activating in the meantime. Now, efficient play would involve having as many weapon skills on cooldown as reasonably practical before pulling a tome, but that isn't possible, and you're at least losing your autoattacks while you've got a tome out. If you take, say, Tome of Justice and then subtract the value of autoattacking and maybe getting a skill 2 or two off during its duration... yeah, it's probably still having more impact than core VoJ (but note the shorter recharge), but it's hardly blowing it out of the water - guardian has pretty strong autoattacks, since it's one of the professions designed around the rest of the bar being mostly for utility.

    When adding up all the things you can do with a tome, you have to take into account that the effective cast time to do that isn't the 1/4 or 1/2 second of the tome itself. If you just faceroll 5-1, that's between 2 3/4 (Courage) and 4 (Resolve) seconds just from the base casting times, without taking aftercast into account (with aftercast, you're probably looking at more than half again added to those figures - that data isn't easily available).

    if you were to compare weapon conjures to tempest shouts without considering what you're not doing while using those conjures, I'm pretty sure it would look like weapon conjures blow tempest shouts out of the water too. Conjure Earth Shield, for instance, grants several blocks, 4s Magnetic Aura (which can be shared with allies if you trait Powerful Auras) on a 12s, barrier, a stun, a pull, a bit of protection, and a fair amount of barrier - if you ignore the fact that while you're using it you're not using whatever weaponset you'd otherwise be using, this'd look a lot better than Aftershock. But in practice, Aftershock gets seen fairly regularly (when Tempest is seen at all, anyway), while Conjure Earth Shield comes up every so often as a gimmick or novelty pick.

  • Legiion.7385Legiion.7385 Member ✭✭

    Lol we got nerfed into the ground and u still want some tradeoffs?
    Our heal mantra is now totally useless with 199 heal lol xD
    Even core guardian has now more heal then FB🤦‍♂️

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Legiion.7385 said:
    Lol we got nerfed into the ground and u still want some tradeoffs?
    Our heal mantra is now totally useless with 199 heal lol xD
    Even core guardian has now more heal then FB🤦‍♂️

    To be fair, this thread did start before that nerf came in.

    But yeah, Mantra of Solace did get pretty much boonsmited, and most FB builds can't abuse Monk's Focus like a core guardian or meditrapper DH can. Granted, one probably could make a FB that uses the same principles, but it'd be a lot more selfish than the firebrands people have been used to seeing. Probably something like this but trading Radiance or Virtues for access to Tome of Justice... and I'm far from convinced that would be a good trade.

    I've only seen two firebrands since the patch, one as an opponent in a 2v2, and one as a teammate in Stronghold. Neither impressed me, unless you consider thinking that they keep going down like a sack of potatoes to be being impressed. And I don't blame the players for that, except perhaps for not knowing about the nerf.

  • Mil.3562Mil.3562 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2020

    I thought after such a big and mostly unnecessory nerfs, all would be satisfied by now. But NO. Still so many whines for more nerfs.... If ANet were to remove all skills and weapons and give every one only a piece of plank, I bet people will still be complaining that the plank is too big. Maybe GW2 is not suitable for many here. You guys should go play candy crush or barbie dolls perhaps...