Condition Revenants: Axe and Mallyx too large area on their control effects — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Condition Revenants: Axe and Mallyx too large area on their control effects

I'll cut straight to the chase. Axe 5 and Mallyx 9 (the leap and pull) are overperforming right now, given they ignore line of sight, cover wide areas, have incredible disruption, AND apply conditions in the process. Mallyx 9 in particular is a VERY strong skill when you consider a roundup pull on top of a chill on top of a 600 range leap that's also 360 radius area effect, which can be traited to apply torment, and for some more perspective is the same range with 50% larger radius than warrior's adrenaline hammer burst ability. Axe 5 also covers quite the area (300 width by 900 range) with another interrupt that applies torment in the process. This skill may have been balanced in the past, but now that CC is largely nerfed, these two are highly overperforming in their areas, allowing wide area disruption and oppressive mobility on top of the fact, without costing from power damage as they compound torment and burning from quick casting passives and pulsing fields (often which the skills are used to pull into).

tl:dr, Mallyx's leap pull and axe's rift are oppressively strong right now because of their wide area coverage and the sheer weight of the entirety of unyielding anguish as a gap closer, interrupt, roundup, and chill.

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Comments

  • Oh and also apparently unyielding anguish still deals damage as a CC ability? I think anet glossed over that skill.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 27, 2020

    Mallyx call to anguish shouldn't do dmg. It doesn't do much at all but for consistency it should have it's dmg nerfed to other hard CC skills. Otherwise it's completely fine.

    Condi rev would be completely dead without the leap pull (unless it got the old spam chill+torment field back, but that's not happening)

    Only nerf really needed is the transfers that condi rev (specifically herald but to some degree permeating pestilence) has, a class with resistance shouldn't have access to those.

    Don't nerf axe, condi rev already only has 1 good weapon, which is mace, the off-hand and off-bar are choices between varying levels of trash, where axe is a little above the rest.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Sorry but you won't find sympathy here: people complaining all day about the already nerfed hammer (which was useless in every part of the game except WvW) and Shriro mobility until ANet turned the entire power builds in hot garbage. Now the meta is bunker cancer and you don't enjoy being a ragdoll? Sorry: not sorry, enjoy what you asked for (by the way, Inspired Reinforcement greatly counters cc; play with a Guardian or a Jalis Rev).

  • You also need to consider than condi rev is essentially a melee build. And in most cases, unless using herald, a rev also won’t have swiftness so most classes can and will literally walk away from you. The leap is not only a cc, it’s a way to close the gap, as is axe 5. Since near enough all damage has been removed from axe, it is now just a utility weapon to close the gaps imo. Both of the skills can not being spammed, can be easily dodged and are highly telegraphed as well as costing a lot of energy as mentioned.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Mallyx call to anguish shouldn't do dmg. It doesn't do much at all but for consistency it should have it's dmg nerfed to other hard CC skills. Otherwise it's completely fine.

    Only nerf really needed is the transfers that condi rev (specifically herald but to some degree permeating pestilence) has, a class with resistance shouldn't have access to those.

    Considering the amount of energy put into the skill, it should do more!

    It shouldn't do any strike dmg because no other hard cc does, this is barely a nerf.

    And how much access does a Revenant have to cleanses? Answer this first then compare it to other classes.

    It has plenty of ways of dealing with condi, at least the transfer builds would even without.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • @lodjur.1284 said:

    It has plenty of ways of dealing with condi, at least the transfer builds would even without.

    When you think about it though and compare to other professions, outside of the transfer, rev doesn’t have a lot of good cleanses, and this has always been one of revs biggest downfalls. The only realistic ones I can think of are one cleanse on legend swap, 2 on staff, and 6 On the dwarf heal? The others would be traited shield skills and Ventari but these in general aren’t really worth including unless playing support.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    For me its amazing, how broken condi rev is and how few PPL actually plays it.

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Josh.4132 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    It has plenty of ways of dealing with condi, at least the transfer builds would even without.

    When you think about it though and compare to other professions, outside of the transfer, rev doesn’t have a lot of good cleanses, and this has always been one of revs biggest downfalls. The only realistic ones I can think of are one cleanse on legend swap, 2 on staff, and 6 On the dwarf heal? The others would be traited shield skills and Ventari but these in general aren’t really worth including unless playing support.

    You have
    Cleansing sigil (all classes but very good since stance swap counts)
    1 on swap with invo
    Dwarf heal 5
    Mallyx resistance on trait and active
    Some various stuff like removing chill/immob/cripple in assassin.

    Presumably permeating and true nature could be replaced with normal clears or something too

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • @Safandula.8723 said:
    For me its amazing, how broken condi rev is and how few PPL actually plays it.

    It doesn’t involve standing on a wall and using rapid fire so it’s never going to be popular.

  • @lodjur.1284 said:

    You have
    Cleansing sigil (all classes but very good since stance swap counts)
    1 on swap with invo
    Dwarf heal 5
    Mallyx resistance on trait and active
    Some various stuff like removing chill/immob/cripple in assassin.

    Presumably permeating and true nature could be replaced with normal clears or something too

    I didn’t mention cleansing sigils as it’s not a rev specific cleanse so it’s an advantage all classes can use against condi. How many people use dwarf? And it’s a 30 sec cd and forces you to use your heal just to cleanse condis. Also now with less condi stacks but longer durations, the usefulness of resistance is somewhat less. Now compare these to things like mesmer’s cleansing mantra, ranger and guardian cleanses and to an extent necro’s transfer/condi cleanses.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Josh.4132 said:

    @Safandula.8723 said:
    For me its amazing, how broken condi rev is and how few PPL actually plays it.

    It doesn’t involve standing on a wall and using rapid fire so it’s never going to be popular.

    Au contraire, they are a dime a dozen in WvW. I see them far more often than power Revs now. It's the new FotM.

  • @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:

    Au contraire, they are a dime a dozen in WvW. I see them far more often than power Revs now. It's the new FotM.

    For now, give it a week or 2 ;)

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Josh.4132 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    You have
    Cleansing sigil (all classes but very good since stance swap counts)
    1 on swap with invo
    Dwarf heal 5
    Mallyx resistance on trait and active
    Some various stuff like removing chill/immob/cripple in assassin.

    Presumably permeating and true nature could be replaced with normal clears or something too

    I didn’t mention cleansing sigils as it’s not a rev specific cleanse so it’s an advantage all classes can use against condi. How many people use dwarf? And it’s a 30 sec cd and forces you to use your heal just to cleanse condis. Also now with less condi stacks but longer durations, the usefulness of resistance is somewhat less. Now compare these to things like mesmer’s cleansing mantra, ranger and guardian cleanses and to an extent necro’s transfer/condi cleanses.

    But they are better on rev than on most classes and absurdly good against condi.

    I personally use dwarf, it has overall good skills.

    Between resistance and the clears that rev does on condi rev I feel about as good against condi as I do on most other classes

    Power rev I haven't really played enough but with 4 clears on stance swap it shouldn't be terrible. Either way they're not usually running the transfer stuff

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • @lodjur.1284 said:

    But they are better on rev than on most classes and absurdly good against condi.

    I personally use dwarf, it has overall good skills.

    Between resistance and the clears that rev does on condi rev I feel about as good against condi as I do on most other classes

    The thing is though If you’re using cleasing sigils, plus dwarf for the cleanse, plus the condi transfers, plus the resistance. Then you have dedicated a lot of traits and adjusted your build to counter condis, this is how it should be.

    Cleansing works the same for rev as it does for all other classes. Changing our utilities on legend swap sometimes doesn’t help us especially now since you’re forced to swap legend to use the other legend’s stun break because of the loss of empty vessel

  • I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Josh.4132 said:
    I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

    @Josh.4132 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    But they are better on rev than on most classes and absurdly good against condi.

    I personally use dwarf, it has overall good skills.

    Between resistance and the clears that rev does on condi rev I feel about as good against condi as I do on most other classes

    The thing is though If you’re using cleasing sigils, plus dwarf for the cleanse, plus the condi transfers, plus the resistance. Then you have dedicated a lot of traits and adjusted your build to counter condis, this is how it should be.

    With the exception of dwarf most of those have very low opportunity costs. Dwarf generally isn't used on the problematic build, it usually uses dragon as that's much better for outnumbering people.

    The cleansing potential isn't problematic, the transfer potential is, espec as you can let the stacks grow while you have resistance so there's no real risk to it

    Cleansing works the same for rev as it does for all other classes. Changing our utilities on legend swap sometimes doesn’t help us especially now since you’re forced to swap legend to use the other legend’s stun break because of the loss of empty vessel

    Rev almost swaps on cooldown, because that's how you use energy the most efficient, making cleansing get relatively close to maximum effectiveness on rev, as opposed to builds that swap a lot less.

    I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

    The condis that the actual rev do are at a good spot rn, the transfers are not, yesterday on multiple occasions I got 40+ stacks of torment and 20+ stacks of burn on me just from transfers, from revs that didn't even use any dmg skills. This is essentially a 1 shot, from a very easy situation to trigger.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @LaGranse.8652 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Josh.4132 said:
    I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

    @Josh.4132 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    But they are better on rev than on most classes and absurdly good against condi.

    I personally use dwarf, it has overall good skills.

    Between resistance and the clears that rev does on condi rev I feel about as good against condi as I do on most other classes

    The thing is though If you’re using cleasing sigils, plus dwarf for the cleanse, plus the condi transfers, plus the resistance. Then you have dedicated a lot of traits and adjusted your build to counter condis, this is how it should be.

    With the exception of dwarf most of those have very low opportunity costs. Dwarf generally isn't used on the problematic build, it usually uses dragon as that's much better for outnumbering people.

    The cleansing potential isn't problematic, the transfer potential is, espec as you can let the stacks grow while you have resistance so there's no real risk to it

    Cleansing works the same for rev as it does for all other classes. Changing our utilities on legend swap sometimes doesn’t help us especially now since you’re forced to swap legend to use the other legend’s stun break because of the loss of empty vessel

    Rev almost swaps on cooldown, because that's how you use energy the most efficient, making cleansing get relatively close to maximum effectiveness on rev, as opposed to builds that swap a lot less.

    I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

    The condis that the actual rev do are at a good spot rn, the transfers are not, yesterday on multiple occasions I got 40+ stacks of torment and 20+ stacks of burn on me just from transfers, from revs that didn't even use any dmg skills. This is essentially a 1 shot, from a very easy situation to trigger.

    For the rev to transfer that amount of condi they would have to have the conditions on themself first. When the rev pulls conditions from allies onto themself they do get a few seconds of resistance to deal with it short term, however, the opponent can dodge/ be out of range of the transfer and then the rev killed themself instead.

    With 5 targets using absorption once gives you 8 sec of resistance. That's not short, that's close enough to forever.

    It's an extremely low risk high reward playstyle that rewards outnumbering the enemy and creates poor play patterns.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Josh.4132 said:
    I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

    @Josh.4132 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    But they are better on rev than on most classes and absurdly good against condi.

    I personally use dwarf, it has overall good skills.

    Between resistance and the clears that rev does on condi rev I feel about as good against condi as I do on most other classes

    The thing is though If you’re using cleasing sigils, plus dwarf for the cleanse, plus the condi transfers, plus the resistance. Then you have dedicated a lot of traits and adjusted your build to counter condis, this is how it should be.

    With the exception of dwarf most of those have very low opportunity costs. Dwarf generally isn't used on the problematic build, it usually uses dragon as that's much better for outnumbering people.

    The cleansing potential isn't problematic, the transfer potential is, espec as you can let the stacks grow while you have resistance so there's no real risk to it

    Cleansing works the same for rev as it does for all other classes. Changing our utilities on legend swap sometimes doesn’t help us especially now since you’re forced to swap legend to use the other legend’s stun break because of the loss of empty vessel

    Rev almost swaps on cooldown, because that's how you use energy the most efficient, making cleansing get relatively close to maximum effectiveness on rev, as opposed to builds that swap a lot less.

    I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

    The condis that the actual rev do are at a good spot rn, the transfers are not, yesterday on multiple occasions I got 40+ stacks of torment and 20+ stacks of burn on me just from transfers, from revs that didn't even use any dmg skills. This is essentially a 1 shot, from a very easy situation to trigger.

    For the rev to transfer that amount of condi they would have to have the conditions on themself first. When the rev pulls conditions from allies onto themself they do get a few seconds of resistance to deal with it short term, however, the opponent can dodge/ be out of range of the transfer and then the rev killed themself instead.

    With 5 targets using absorption once gives you 8 sec of resistance. That's not short, that's close enough to forever.

    It's an extremely low risk high reward playstyle that rewards outnumbering the enemy and creates poor play patterns.

    But that's the case for pretty much everything. Outnumbering the enemy will most of the times have more benefits than being outnumbered. Giving out any boon is more effective if you give it to 5 people than to less than 5.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you. Umbasa.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Josh.4132 said:
    I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

    @Josh.4132 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    But they are better on rev than on most classes and absurdly good against condi.

    I personally use dwarf, it has overall good skills.

    Between resistance and the clears that rev does on condi rev I feel about as good against condi as I do on most other classes

    The thing is though If you’re using cleasing sigils, plus dwarf for the cleanse, plus the condi transfers, plus the resistance. Then you have dedicated a lot of traits and adjusted your build to counter condis, this is how it should be.

    With the exception of dwarf most of those have very low opportunity costs. Dwarf generally isn't used on the problematic build, it usually uses dragon as that's much better for outnumbering people.

    The cleansing potential isn't problematic, the transfer potential is, espec as you can let the stacks grow while you have resistance so there's no real risk to it

    Cleansing works the same for rev as it does for all other classes. Changing our utilities on legend swap sometimes doesn’t help us especially now since you’re forced to swap legend to use the other legend’s stun break because of the loss of empty vessel

    Rev almost swaps on cooldown, because that's how you use energy the most efficient, making cleansing get relatively close to maximum effectiveness on rev, as opposed to builds that swap a lot less.

    I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

    The condis that the actual rev do are at a good spot rn, the transfers are not, yesterday on multiple occasions I got 40+ stacks of torment and 20+ stacks of burn on me just from transfers, from revs that didn't even use any dmg skills. This is essentially a 1 shot, from a very easy situation to trigger.

    For the rev to transfer that amount of condi they would have to have the conditions on themself first. When the rev pulls conditions from allies onto themself they do get a few seconds of resistance to deal with it short term, however, the opponent can dodge/ be out of range of the transfer and then the rev killed themself instead.

    With 5 targets using absorption once gives you 8 sec of resistance. That's not short, that's close enough to forever.

    It's an extremely low risk high reward playstyle that rewards outnumbering the enemy and creates poor play patterns.

    But that's the case for pretty much everything. Outnumbering the enemy will most of the times have more benefits than being outnumbered. Giving out any boon is more effective if you give it to 5 people than to less than 5.

    Boons increase your effectiveness, if you're a better player, you gain a larger benefit. The problem isn't that there's benefits to outnumbering, ofc there should be (the game would be very weird otherwise and even fighting outnumbered would be boring).

    The problem is when those advantages take the form of a very common and oppressive build that gives a disproportionate advantage in these situations.

    This is a similar issue to excessive mobility/burst/invuln builds, they punish outnumbered situations much more than is reasonable and makes combat more often just come down to numbers.

    Same thing as offensive AoE caps, retaliation and the downed state. They give benefits that are arbitrary.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2020

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Josh.4132 said:
    I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

    @Josh.4132 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    But they are better on rev than on most classes and absurdly good against condi.

    I personally use dwarf, it has overall good skills.

    Between resistance and the clears that rev does on condi rev I feel about as good against condi as I do on most other classes

    The thing is though If you’re using cleasing sigils, plus dwarf for the cleanse, plus the condi transfers, plus the resistance. Then you have dedicated a lot of traits and adjusted your build to counter condis, this is how it should be.

    With the exception of dwarf most of those have very low opportunity costs. Dwarf generally isn't used on the problematic build, it usually uses dragon as that's much better for outnumbering people.

    The cleansing potential isn't problematic, the transfer potential is, espec as you can let the stacks grow while you have resistance so there's no real risk to it

    Cleansing works the same for rev as it does for all other classes. Changing our utilities on legend swap sometimes doesn’t help us especially now since you’re forced to swap legend to use the other legend’s stun break because of the loss of empty vessel

    Rev almost swaps on cooldown, because that's how you use energy the most efficient, making cleansing get relatively close to maximum effectiveness on rev, as opposed to builds that swap a lot less.

    I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

    The condis that the actual rev do are at a good spot rn, the transfers are not, yesterday on multiple occasions I got 40+ stacks of torment and 20+ stacks of burn on me just from transfers, from revs that didn't even use any dmg skills. This is essentially a 1 shot, from a very easy situation to trigger.

    For the rev to transfer that amount of condi they would have to have the conditions on themself first. When the rev pulls conditions from allies onto themself they do get a few seconds of resistance to deal with it short term, however, the opponent can dodge/ be out of range of the transfer and then the rev killed themself instead.

    With 5 targets using absorption once gives you 8 sec of resistance. That's not short, that's close enough to forever.

    It's an extremely low risk high reward playstyle that rewards outnumbering the enemy and creates poor play patterns.

    But that's the case for pretty much everything. Outnumbering the enemy will most of the times have more benefits than being outnumbered. Giving out any boon is more effective if you give it to 5 people than to less than 5.

    Boons increase your effectiveness, if you're a better player, you gain a larger benefit. The problem isn't that there's benefits to outnumbering, ofc there should be (the game would be very weird otherwise and even fighting outnumbered would be boring).

    The problem is when those advantages take the form of a very common and oppressive build that gives a disproportionate advantage in these situations.

    This is a similar issue to excessive mobility/burst/invuln builds, they punish outnumbered situations much more than is reasonable and makes combat more often just come down to numbers.

    Same thing as offensive AoE caps, retaliation and the downed state. They give benefits that are arbitrary.

    I still don't understand your point. If you're a better player, you'll be able to better use the mallyx "pull and spread" mechanic, you gain a larger benefit from correctly pulling the conditions onto you and sharing them efficiently by having proper positioning. You get punished if you aren't able to spread them, someone removes your resistance boon or someone in your team cleanses them right before spreading. So having more people could actually increase the chance of the conditions being cleansed, which would actually be negative for that specific build.

    If you have more people, they could share more boons, making them permanent and it would be "oppressive" to the enemy. Having permanent uptime on every boon and having them fully stacked gives a disproportionate advantage against enemies that aren't fully buffed.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you. Umbasa.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Josh.4132 said:
    I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

    @Josh.4132 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    But they are better on rev than on most classes and absurdly good against condi.

    I personally use dwarf, it has overall good skills.

    Between resistance and the clears that rev does on condi rev I feel about as good against condi as I do on most other classes

    The thing is though If you’re using cleasing sigils, plus dwarf for the cleanse, plus the condi transfers, plus the resistance. Then you have dedicated a lot of traits and adjusted your build to counter condis, this is how it should be.

    With the exception of dwarf most of those have very low opportunity costs. Dwarf generally isn't used on the problematic build, it usually uses dragon as that's much better for outnumbering people.

    The cleansing potential isn't problematic, the transfer potential is, espec as you can let the stacks grow while you have resistance so there's no real risk to it

    Cleansing works the same for rev as it does for all other classes. Changing our utilities on legend swap sometimes doesn’t help us especially now since you’re forced to swap legend to use the other legend’s stun break because of the loss of empty vessel

    Rev almost swaps on cooldown, because that's how you use energy the most efficient, making cleansing get relatively close to maximum effectiveness on rev, as opposed to builds that swap a lot less.

    I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

    The condis that the actual rev do are at a good spot rn, the transfers are not, yesterday on multiple occasions I got 40+ stacks of torment and 20+ stacks of burn on me just from transfers, from revs that didn't even use any dmg skills. This is essentially a 1 shot, from a very easy situation to trigger.

    For the rev to transfer that amount of condi they would have to have the conditions on themself first. When the rev pulls conditions from allies onto themself they do get a few seconds of resistance to deal with it short term, however, the opponent can dodge/ be out of range of the transfer and then the rev killed themself instead.

    With 5 targets using absorption once gives you 8 sec of resistance. That's not short, that's close enough to forever.

    It's an extremely low risk high reward playstyle that rewards outnumbering the enemy and creates poor play patterns.

    But that's the case for pretty much everything. Outnumbering the enemy will most of the times have more benefits than being outnumbered. Giving out any boon is more effective if you give it to 5 people than to less than 5.

    Boons increase your effectiveness, if you're a better player, you gain a larger benefit. The problem isn't that there's benefits to outnumbering, ofc there should be (the game would be very weird otherwise and even fighting outnumbered would be boring).

    The problem is when those advantages take the form of a very common and oppressive build that gives a disproportionate advantage in these situations.

    This is a similar issue to excessive mobility/burst/invuln builds, they punish outnumbered situations much more than is reasonable and makes combat more often just come down to numbers.

    Same thing as offensive AoE caps, retaliation and the downed state. They give benefits that are arbitrary.

    I still don't understand your point. If you're a better player, you'll be able to better use the mallyx "pull and spread" mechanic, you gain a larger benefit from correctly pulling the conditions onto you and sharing them efficiently by having proper positioning.

    Except that it's so simple that there's no being good or bad at it.

    Most importantly, in my 3 man group for example, I could swap to transfer rev, but most fights

    1. I never have that amount of stacks, except when fighting transfer revs, meaning it's a build whose main counter is itself, clearly unhealthy.

    2. If they have 2 transfer revs they still just win then. Transfers are just a poor mechanic.

    3. I actually have to use my energy to dmg, they don't because they can afford to do no dmg outside of transfers, which is how most of them play.

    Smaller groups can't afford having someone only do that because they're fewer.

    If you have more people, they could share more boons, making them permanent and it would be "oppressive" to the enemy. Having permanent uptime on every boon and having them fully stacked gives a disproportionate advantage against enemies that aren't fully buffed.

    No it doesn't, because with the exception of resistance/retal, they're all just "multipliers" of how powerful you are. They increase your dmg by a percentage, they don't suddenly make you go from doing no dmg to instagibbing people.

    If you die in 10 sec to power dmg without protection, you die in 15 with it.

    If you do very little dmg because you use your skills poorly, then 25 might means you do very little dmg +20-30% (or whatever 25 stacks of might ends up at).

    Same with quickness, fury, regen, swiftness etc

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2020

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Josh.4132 said:
    I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

    @Josh.4132 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    But they are better on rev than on most classes and absurdly good against condi.

    I personally use dwarf, it has overall good skills.

    Between resistance and the clears that rev does on condi rev I feel about as good against condi as I do on most other classes

    The thing is though If you’re using cleasing sigils, plus dwarf for the cleanse, plus the condi transfers, plus the resistance. Then you have dedicated a lot of traits and adjusted your build to counter condis, this is how it should be.

    With the exception of dwarf most of those have very low opportunity costs. Dwarf generally isn't used on the problematic build, it usually uses dragon as that's much better for outnumbering people.

    The cleansing potential isn't problematic, the transfer potential is, espec as you can let the stacks grow while you have resistance so there's no real risk to it

    Cleansing works the same for rev as it does for all other classes. Changing our utilities on legend swap sometimes doesn’t help us especially now since you’re forced to swap legend to use the other legend’s stun break because of the loss of empty vessel

    Rev almost swaps on cooldown, because that's how you use energy the most efficient, making cleansing get relatively close to maximum effectiveness on rev, as opposed to builds that swap a lot less.

    I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

    The condis that the actual rev do are at a good spot rn, the transfers are not, yesterday on multiple occasions I got 40+ stacks of torment and 20+ stacks of burn on me just from transfers, from revs that didn't even use any dmg skills. This is essentially a 1 shot, from a very easy situation to trigger.

    For the rev to transfer that amount of condi they would have to have the conditions on themself first. When the rev pulls conditions from allies onto themself they do get a few seconds of resistance to deal with it short term, however, the opponent can dodge/ be out of range of the transfer and then the rev killed themself instead.

    With 5 targets using absorption once gives you 8 sec of resistance. That's not short, that's close enough to forever.

    It's an extremely low risk high reward playstyle that rewards outnumbering the enemy and creates poor play patterns.

    But that's the case for pretty much everything. Outnumbering the enemy will most of the times have more benefits than being outnumbered. Giving out any boon is more effective if you give it to 5 people than to less than 5.

    Boons increase your effectiveness, if you're a better player, you gain a larger benefit. The problem isn't that there's benefits to outnumbering, ofc there should be (the game would be very weird otherwise and even fighting outnumbered would be boring).

    The problem is when those advantages take the form of a very common and oppressive build that gives a disproportionate advantage in these situations.

    This is a similar issue to excessive mobility/burst/invuln builds, they punish outnumbered situations much more than is reasonable and makes combat more often just come down to numbers.

    Same thing as offensive AoE caps, retaliation and the downed state. They give benefits that are arbitrary.

    I still don't understand your point. If you're a better player, you'll be able to better use the mallyx "pull and spread" mechanic, you gain a larger benefit from correctly pulling the conditions onto you and sharing them efficiently by having proper positioning.

    Except that it's so simple that there's no being good or bad at it.

    Most importantly, in my 3 man group for example, I could swap to transfer rev, but most fights

    1. I never have that amount of stacks, except when fighting transfer revs, meaning it's a build whose main counter is itself, clearly unhealthy.

    2. If they have 2 transfer revs they still just win then. Transfers are just a poor mechanic.

    3. I actually have to use my energy to dmg, they don't because they can afford to do no dmg outside of transfers, which is how most of them play.

    Smaller groups can't afford having someone only do that because they're fewer.

    Invoke torment only has a 240 radius, so there's a "being good" at it.

    1. The counter to the build is to just remove/corrupt his resistance, not standing in his 240 radius, or dodge when you see his legend swap icon pop up, since invoke torment is delayed. He'll just kill himself if you do that.

    2. If they have 2 transfer revs they'll just steal the conditions from each other, which could lead to one of them spreading nothing at all if he tried to do so at the wrong time. More transfer revs would make it even more complicated to spread at the correct time, since everyone could just pull the conditions to themselves.

    3. That's like saying smaller groups can't afford to play pure support builds, since they can afford to do no dmg outside of healing/supporting.

    If you have more people, they could share more boons, making them permanent and it would be "oppressive" to the enemy. Having permanent uptime on every boon and having them fully stacked gives a disproportionate advantage against enemies that aren't fully buffed.

    No it doesn't, because with the exception of resistance/retal, they're all just "multipliers" of how powerful you are. They increase your dmg by a percentage, they don't suddenly make you go from doing no dmg to instagibbing people.

    If you die in 10 sec to power dmg without protection, you die in 15 with it.

    If you do very little dmg because you use your skills poorly, then 25 might means you do very little dmg +20-30% (or whatever 25 stacks of might ends up at).

    Same with quickness, fury, regen, swiftness etc

    I don't know, 25 might and quickness can pretty quickly turn into an "instagib". Fighting someone with full buffs at all times as someone without buffs is pretty horrendous. I still remember fighting multiple boon beasts in the past. Also using the spread / invoke torment poorly also results in 0 dmg, and potentially in your death.

    You also completely ignored the thing about having more people = more potential condi cleanses completely disrupting the spread / stacking of conditions. So having more people isn't always good for that tactic.

    Edit: Also, if all he does is spam resistance, just kill him with a power build.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you. Umbasa.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Josh.4132 said:
    I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

    @Josh.4132 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    But they are better on rev than on most classes and absurdly good against condi.

    I personally use dwarf, it has overall good skills.

    Between resistance and the clears that rev does on condi rev I feel about as good against condi as I do on most other classes

    The thing is though If you’re using cleasing sigils, plus dwarf for the cleanse, plus the condi transfers, plus the resistance. Then you have dedicated a lot of traits and adjusted your build to counter condis, this is how it should be.

    With the exception of dwarf most of those have very low opportunity costs. Dwarf generally isn't used on the problematic build, it usually uses dragon as that's much better for outnumbering people.

    The cleansing potential isn't problematic, the transfer potential is, espec as you can let the stacks grow while you have resistance so there's no real risk to it

    Cleansing works the same for rev as it does for all other classes. Changing our utilities on legend swap sometimes doesn’t help us especially now since you’re forced to swap legend to use the other legend’s stun break because of the loss of empty vessel

    Rev almost swaps on cooldown, because that's how you use energy the most efficient, making cleansing get relatively close to maximum effectiveness on rev, as opposed to builds that swap a lot less.

    I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

    The condis that the actual rev do are at a good spot rn, the transfers are not, yesterday on multiple occasions I got 40+ stacks of torment and 20+ stacks of burn on me just from transfers, from revs that didn't even use any dmg skills. This is essentially a 1 shot, from a very easy situation to trigger.

    For the rev to transfer that amount of condi they would have to have the conditions on themself first. When the rev pulls conditions from allies onto themself they do get a few seconds of resistance to deal with it short term, however, the opponent can dodge/ be out of range of the transfer and then the rev killed themself instead.

    With 5 targets using absorption once gives you 8 sec of resistance. That's not short, that's close enough to forever.

    It's an extremely low risk high reward playstyle that rewards outnumbering the enemy and creates poor play patterns.

    But that's the case for pretty much everything. Outnumbering the enemy will most of the times have more benefits than being outnumbered. Giving out any boon is more effective if you give it to 5 people than to less than 5.

    Boons increase your effectiveness, if you're a better player, you gain a larger benefit. The problem isn't that there's benefits to outnumbering, ofc there should be (the game would be very weird otherwise and even fighting outnumbered would be boring).

    The problem is when those advantages take the form of a very common and oppressive build that gives a disproportionate advantage in these situations.

    This is a similar issue to excessive mobility/burst/invuln builds, they punish outnumbered situations much more than is reasonable and makes combat more often just come down to numbers.

    Same thing as offensive AoE caps, retaliation and the downed state. They give benefits that are arbitrary.

    I still don't understand your point. If you're a better player, you'll be able to better use the mallyx "pull and spread" mechanic, you gain a larger benefit from correctly pulling the conditions onto you and sharing them efficiently by having proper positioning.

    Except that it's so simple that there's no being good or bad at it.

    Most importantly, in my 3 man group for example, I could swap to transfer rev, but most fights

    1. I never have that amount of stacks, except when fighting transfer revs, meaning it's a build whose main counter is itself, clearly unhealthy.

    2. If they have 2 transfer revs they still just win then. Transfers are just a poor mechanic.

    3. I actually have to use my energy to dmg, they don't because they can afford to do no dmg outside of transfers, which is how most of them play.

    Smaller groups can't afford having someone only do that because they're fewer.

    Invoke torment only has a 240 radius, so there's a "being good" at it.

    1. The counter to the build is to just remove/corrupt his resistance, not standing in his 240 radius, or dodge when you see his legend swap icon pop up, since invoke torment is delayed. He'll just kill himself if you do that.

    That's all well and good in theory, but given that they have

    1. Dmg to healing from dragon, so if they fail and run out of resistance they pop that and run away
    2. Cover boons, so removing the resistance often doesn't work
    3. Generally just stand next to you spamming new resistance
    4. True nature demon has next to no animation and does both the transfer and the gathering of condis in 1 skill.

    The problem is mostly that it turns players who play very poorly (most of the people who started playing transfer rev I've seen before on a variety of other stuff where they were ignorable) into massive threats that are very difficult to deal with.

    1. If they have 2 transfer revs they'll just steal the conditions from each other, which could lead to one of them spreading nothing at all if he tried to do so at the wrong time. More transfer revs would make it even more complicated to spread at the correct time, since everyone could just pull the conditions to themselves.

    You don't need to time it tho, you just keep repeating the process until it succeeds once, which is all it takes.

    1. That's like saying smaller groups can't afford to play pure support builds, since they can afford to do no dmg outside of healing/supporting.

    They can obviously, mostly because healer is a core part of the combat system. They do many things, like heal, boons, clear, cc etc.

    This is more like saying that winds of disenchantment is worse in a 3 man group than in a zerg as 1 person doing "nothing" is a bigger problem there. Or like saying that siege favors the bigger side because you can afford to have 1 person afking on a ballista spamming 1.

    All extremely specialized roles are much weaker in smallscale.

    If you have more people, they could share more boons, making them permanent and it would be "oppressive" to the enemy. Having permanent uptime on every boon and having them fully stacked gives a disproportionate advantage against enemies that aren't fully buffed.

    No it doesn't, because with the exception of resistance/retal, they're all just "multipliers" of how powerful you are. They increase your dmg by a percentage, they don't suddenly make you go from doing no dmg to instagibbing people.

    If you die in 10 sec to power dmg without protection, you die in 15 with it.

    If you do very little dmg because you use your skills poorly, then 25 might means you do very little dmg +20-30% (or whatever 25 stacks of might ends up at).

    Same with quickness, fury, regen, swiftness etc

    I don't know, 25 might and quickness can't pretty quickly turn into a "instagib". Fighting someone with full buffs at all times as someone without buffs is pretty horrendous. I still remember fighting multiple boon beasts in the past.

    It might make them do double normal dmg if they have 25 might/fury/quickness, but double nothing is still nothing.

    The threat is most definitively amplified, but it doesn't turn someone who is completely harmless into a 1 shotting thing that shuts you down.

    You also completely ignored the thing about having more people = more potential condi cleanses completely disrupting the spread / stacking of conditions.

    Well more people might mean that sometimes you only transfer 20 instead of 40 stacks, that is still very powerful. If the conditions that was intended to be transferred gets cleared, then you just try again, not like you died.

    That bigger groups overall counter condis is a different matter, as that's nowhere near as oppressive. I do think clears should be more personal and less groupwide but completely different matter.

    Thing is I love condi rev, I've been playing it since a few patches ago. (not the herald version as it's imo not as good at outnumbered fights)

    But transfer rev is oppressive and I don't want them nerfing the rest of the condi rev toolset into the ground because of one version of it. Which currently isn't very unlikely.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2020

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Josh.4132 said:
    I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

    @Josh.4132 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    But they are better on rev than on most classes and absurdly good against condi.

    I personally use dwarf, it has overall good skills.

    Between resistance and the clears that rev does on condi rev I feel about as good against condi as I do on most other classes

    The thing is though If you’re using cleasing sigils, plus dwarf for the cleanse, plus the condi transfers, plus the resistance. Then you have dedicated a lot of traits and adjusted your build to counter condis, this is how it should be.

    With the exception of dwarf most of those have very low opportunity costs. Dwarf generally isn't used on the problematic build, it usually uses dragon as that's much better for outnumbering people.

    The cleansing potential isn't problematic, the transfer potential is, espec as you can let the stacks grow while you have resistance so there's no real risk to it

    Cleansing works the same for rev as it does for all other classes. Changing our utilities on legend swap sometimes doesn’t help us especially now since you’re forced to swap legend to use the other legend’s stun break because of the loss of empty vessel

    Rev almost swaps on cooldown, because that's how you use energy the most efficient, making cleansing get relatively close to maximum effectiveness on rev, as opposed to builds that swap a lot less.

    I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

    The condis that the actual rev do are at a good spot rn, the transfers are not, yesterday on multiple occasions I got 40+ stacks of torment and 20+ stacks of burn on me just from transfers, from revs that didn't even use any dmg skills. This is essentially a 1 shot, from a very easy situation to trigger.

    For the rev to transfer that amount of condi they would have to have the conditions on themself first. When the rev pulls conditions from allies onto themself they do get a few seconds of resistance to deal with it short term, however, the opponent can dodge/ be out of range of the transfer and then the rev killed themself instead.

    With 5 targets using absorption once gives you 8 sec of resistance. That's not short, that's close enough to forever.

    It's an extremely low risk high reward playstyle that rewards outnumbering the enemy and creates poor play patterns.

    But that's the case for pretty much everything. Outnumbering the enemy will most of the times have more benefits than being outnumbered. Giving out any boon is more effective if you give it to 5 people than to less than 5.

    Boons increase your effectiveness, if you're a better player, you gain a larger benefit. The problem isn't that there's benefits to outnumbering, ofc there should be (the game would be very weird otherwise and even fighting outnumbered would be boring).

    The problem is when those advantages take the form of a very common and oppressive build that gives a disproportionate advantage in these situations.

    This is a similar issue to excessive mobility/burst/invuln builds, they punish outnumbered situations much more than is reasonable and makes combat more often just come down to numbers.

    Same thing as offensive AoE caps, retaliation and the downed state. They give benefits that are arbitrary.

    I still don't understand your point. If you're a better player, you'll be able to better use the mallyx "pull and spread" mechanic, you gain a larger benefit from correctly pulling the conditions onto you and sharing them efficiently by having proper positioning.

    Except that it's so simple that there's no being good or bad at it.

    Most importantly, in my 3 man group for example, I could swap to transfer rev, but most fights

    1. I never have that amount of stacks, except when fighting transfer revs, meaning it's a build whose main counter is itself, clearly unhealthy.

    2. If they have 2 transfer revs they still just win then. Transfers are just a poor mechanic.

    3. I actually have to use my energy to dmg, they don't because they can afford to do no dmg outside of transfers, which is how most of them play.

    Smaller groups can't afford having someone only do that because they're fewer.

    Invoke torment only has a 240 radius, so there's a "being good" at it.

    1. The counter to the build is to just remove/corrupt his resistance, not standing in his 240 radius, or dodge when you see his legend swap icon pop up, since invoke torment is delayed. He'll just kill himself if you do that.

    That's all well and good in theory, but given that they have

    Dmg to healing from dragon, so if they fail and run out of resistance they pop that and run away
    Cover boons, so removing the resistance often doesn't work
    Generally just stand next to you spamming new resistance
    True nature demon has next to no animation

    The problem is mostly that it turns players who play very poorly (most of the people who started playing transfer rev I've seen before on a variety of other stuff where they were ignorable) into massive threats that are very difficult to deal with.

    Tbh, they don't seem very difficult to deal for me. I just remove their resistance, and they just die. You can even throw cover conditions on them, so that they spread the wrong thing. Or just play a power build, since all they apparently do is spam resistance. You could also just use an epidemic and kill their whole team. (After stripping resistance)

    1. If they have 2 transfer revs they'll just steal the conditions from each other, which could lead to one of them spreading nothing at all if he tried to do so at the wrong time. More transfer revs would make it even more complicated to spread at the correct time, since everyone could just pull the conditions to themselves.

    You don't need to time it tho, you just keep repeating the process until it succeeds once, which is all it takes.

    Those 5 revenants spamming resistance are not going to do anything against anyone if they just waste their energy on that. They'll just get killed by any power build / get corrupted by a necro and die.

    1. That's like saying smaller groups can't afford to play pure support builds, since they can afford to do no dmg outside of healing/supporting.

    They can obviously, mostly because healer is a core part of the combat system. They do many things, like heal, boons, clear, cc etc.

    This is more like saying that winds of disenchantment is worse in a 3 man group than in a zerg as 1 person doing "nothing" is a bigger problem there. Or like saying that siege favors the bigger side because you can afford to have 1 person afking on a ballista spamming 1.

    All extremely specialized roles are much weaker in smallscale.

    Yeah, so if "condi spread rev" is a specialized role like the others (which it isn't), why is that one "bad" for the game, but other specialized specs doing their thing aren't?

    If you have more people, they could share more boons, making them permanent and it would be "oppressive" to the enemy. Having permanent uptime on every boon and having them fully stacked gives a disproportionate advantage against enemies that aren't fully buffed.

    No it doesn't, because with the exception of resistance/retal, they're all just "multipliers" of how powerful you are. They increase your dmg by a percentage, they don't suddenly make you go from doing no dmg to instagibbing people.

    If you die in 10 sec to power dmg without protection, you die in 15 with it.

    If you do very little dmg because you use your skills poorly, then 25 might means you do very little dmg +20-30% (or whatever 25 stacks of might ends up at).

    Same with quickness, fury, regen, swiftness etc

    I don't know, 25 might and quickness can't pretty quickly turn into a "instagib". Fighting someone with full buffs at all times as someone without buffs is pretty horrendous. I still remember fighting multiple boon beasts in the past.

    It might make them do double normal dmg if they have 25 might/fury/quickness, but double nothing is still nothing.

    The threat is most definitively amplified, but it doesn't turn someone who is completely harmless into a 1 shotting thing that shuts you down.

    ???
    Full boons turn anyone into killing machines that shut down anything, if you yourself don't have any boons. A group of 10 full buffed players will easily roll over a non-buffed 5man team in seconds.

    You also completely ignored the thing about having more people = more potential condi cleanses completely disrupting the spread / stacking of conditions.

    Well more people might mean that sometimes you only transfer 20 instead of 40 stacks, that is still very powerful. If the conditions that was intended to be transferred gets cleared, then you just try again, not like you died.

    That bigger groups overall counter condis is a different matter, as that's nowhere near as oppressive. I do think clears should be more personal and less groupwide but completely different matter.

    More people might also mean that instead of 40 or 20 you transfer 0, since it was cleansed. If you need so much setup to transfer anything, the enemies would already be dead with a full buffed team.

    You yourself said "outnumbering" the enemy would make the "condi spread rev" stronger, but it actually doesn't, since it gives him even less opportunities to use his tactic. It actually makes pretty much every other build stronger, that doesn't rely on self spreading.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you. Umbasa.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Josh.4132 said:
    I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

    @Josh.4132 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    But they are better on rev than on most classes and absurdly good against condi.

    I personally use dwarf, it has overall good skills.

    Between resistance and the clears that rev does on condi rev I feel about as good against condi as I do on most other classes

    The thing is though If you’re using cleasing sigils, plus dwarf for the cleanse, plus the condi transfers, plus the resistance. Then you have dedicated a lot of traits and adjusted your build to counter condis, this is how it should be.

    With the exception of dwarf most of those have very low opportunity costs. Dwarf generally isn't used on the problematic build, it usually uses dragon as that's much better for outnumbering people.

    The cleansing potential isn't problematic, the transfer potential is, espec as you can let the stacks grow while you have resistance so there's no real risk to it

    Cleansing works the same for rev as it does for all other classes. Changing our utilities on legend swap sometimes doesn’t help us especially now since you’re forced to swap legend to use the other legend’s stun break because of the loss of empty vessel

    Rev almost swaps on cooldown, because that's how you use energy the most efficient, making cleansing get relatively close to maximum effectiveness on rev, as opposed to builds that swap a lot less.

    I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

    The condis that the actual rev do are at a good spot rn, the transfers are not, yesterday on multiple occasions I got 40+ stacks of torment and 20+ stacks of burn on me just from transfers, from revs that didn't even use any dmg skills. This is essentially a 1 shot, from a very easy situation to trigger.

    For the rev to transfer that amount of condi they would have to have the conditions on themself first. When the rev pulls conditions from allies onto themself they do get a few seconds of resistance to deal with it short term, however, the opponent can dodge/ be out of range of the transfer and then the rev killed themself instead.

    With 5 targets using absorption once gives you 8 sec of resistance. That's not short, that's close enough to forever.

    It's an extremely low risk high reward playstyle that rewards outnumbering the enemy and creates poor play patterns.

    But that's the case for pretty much everything. Outnumbering the enemy will most of the times have more benefits than being outnumbered. Giving out any boon is more effective if you give it to 5 people than to less than 5.

    Boons increase your effectiveness, if you're a better player, you gain a larger benefit. The problem isn't that there's benefits to outnumbering, ofc there should be (the game would be very weird otherwise and even fighting outnumbered would be boring).

    The problem is when those advantages take the form of a very common and oppressive build that gives a disproportionate advantage in these situations.

    This is a similar issue to excessive mobility/burst/invuln builds, they punish outnumbered situations much more than is reasonable and makes combat more often just come down to numbers.

    Same thing as offensive AoE caps, retaliation and the downed state. They give benefits that are arbitrary.

    I still don't understand your point. If you're a better player, you'll be able to better use the mallyx "pull and spread" mechanic, you gain a larger benefit from correctly pulling the conditions onto you and sharing them efficiently by having proper positioning.

    Except that it's so simple that there's no being good or bad at it.

    Most importantly, in my 3 man group for example, I could swap to transfer rev, but most fights

    1. I never have that amount of stacks, except when fighting transfer revs, meaning it's a build whose main counter is itself, clearly unhealthy.

    2. If they have 2 transfer revs they still just win then. Transfers are just a poor mechanic.

    3. I actually have to use my energy to dmg, they don't because they can afford to do no dmg outside of transfers, which is how most of them play.

    Smaller groups can't afford having someone only do that because they're fewer.

    Invoke torment only has a 240 radius, so there's a "being good" at it.

    1. The counter to the build is to just remove/corrupt his resistance, not standing in his 240 radius, or dodge when you see his legend swap icon pop up, since invoke torment is delayed. He'll just kill himself if you do that.

    That's all well and good in theory, but given that they have

    Dmg to healing from dragon, so if they fail and run out of resistance they pop that and run away
    Cover boons, so removing the resistance often doesn't work
    Generally just stand next to you spamming new resistance
    True nature demon has next to no animation

    The problem is mostly that it turns players who play very poorly (most of the people who started playing transfer rev I've seen before on a variety of other stuff where they were ignorable) into massive threats that are very difficult to deal with.

    Tbh, they don't seem very difficult to deal for me. I just remove their resistance, and they just die. You can even throw cover conditions on them, so that they spread the wrong thing. Or just play a power build, since all they apparently do is spam resistance. You could also just use an epidemic and kill their whole team. (After stripping resistance)

    So your suggestions are

    1. Swap to a different class, that seems like a healthy counterplay....
    2. Epidemic against someone who spams resistance... When the skill is already trash, and from a class that's a joke in small groups
    3. 1 person from the enemy team being "useless" doesn't matter super much when you're 3v10.

    You've clearly never played against it

    1. If they have 2 transfer revs they'll just steal the conditions from each other, which could lead to one of them spreading nothing at all if he tried to do so at the wrong time. More transfer revs would make it even more complicated to spread at the correct time, since everyone could just pull the conditions to themselves.

    You don't need to time it tho, you just keep repeating the process until it succeeds once, which is all it takes.

    Those 5 revenants spamming resistance are not going to do anything against anyone if they just waste their energy on that. They'll just get killed by any power build / get corrupted by a necro and die.

    1. That's like saying smaller groups can't afford to play pure support builds, since they can afford to do no dmg outside of healing/supporting.

    They can obviously, mostly because healer is a core part of the combat system. They do many things, like heal, boons, clear, cc etc.

    This is more like saying that winds of disenchantment is worse in a 3 man group than in a zerg as 1 person doing "nothing" is a bigger problem there. Or like saying that siege favors the bigger side because you can afford to have 1 person afking on a ballista spamming 1.

    All extremely specialized roles are much weaker in smallscale.

    Yeah, so if "condi spread rev" is a specialized role like the others (which it isn't), why is that one "bad" for the game, but other specialized specs doing their thing aren't?

    Condi transfer rev, big difference

    Most of extremely specialized builds are bad for the game. This is just the one that's relevant to the thread and currently the most common/powerful.

    Stop attributing opinions I don't have. to me

    If you have more people, they could share more boons, making them permanent and it would be "oppressive" to the enemy. Having permanent uptime on every boon and having them fully stacked gives a disproportionate advantage against enemies that aren't fully buffed.

    No it doesn't, because with the exception of resistance/retal, they're all just "multipliers" of how powerful you are. They increase your dmg by a percentage, they don't suddenly make you go from doing no dmg to instagibbing people.

    If you die in 10 sec to power dmg without protection, you die in 15 with it.

    If you do very little dmg because you use your skills poorly, then 25 might means you do very little dmg +20-30% (or whatever 25 stacks of might ends up at).

    Same with quickness, fury, regen, swiftness etc

    I don't know, 25 might and quickness can't pretty quickly turn into a "instagib". Fighting someone with full buffs at all times as someone without buffs is pretty horrendous. I still remember fighting multiple boon beasts in the past.

    It might make them do double normal dmg if they have 25 might/fury/quickness, but double nothing is still nothing.

    The threat is most definitively amplified, but it doesn't turn someone who is completely harmless into a 1 shotting thing that shuts you down.

    ???
    Full boons turn anyone into killing machines that shut down anything, if you yourself don't have any boons. A group of 10 full buffed players will easily roll over a non-buffed 5man team in seconds.

    No it doesn't.

    1. If the 5 man group has no boons they're doing something very wrong
    2. Boons are powerful but someone who does no dmg won't instantly start doing dmg just cause they got boons
    3. Boons are a central part of the game, not a tiny niche like condi transfers are
    4. Boons don't randomly 1 shot you with instant skills

    You also completely ignored the thing about having more people = more potential condi cleanses completely disrupting the spread / stacking of conditions.

    Well more people might mean that sometimes you only transfer 20 instead of 40 stacks, that is still very powerful. If the conditions that was intended to be transferred gets cleared, then you just try again, not like you died.

    That bigger groups overall counter condis is a different matter, as that's nowhere near as oppressive. I do think clears should be more personal and less groupwide but completely different matter.

    More people might also mean that instead of 40 or 20 you transfer 0, since it was cleansed. If you need so much setup to transfer anything, the enemies would already be dead with a full buffed team.

    Gimmicky builds that hardcounter "normal" builds and are extremely easy to play are terrible design. The setup is incredibly easy.

    Obviously making everyone around you suddenly competent for them having boons to really do much would be more powerful, but for better or worse there's no build that suddenly makes their surroundings competent.

    You yourself said "outnumbering" the enemy would make the "condi spread rev" stronger, but it actually doesn't, since it gives him even less opportunities to use his tactic. It actually makes pretty much every other build stronger, that doesn't rely on self spreading.

    More targets also means more people to

    1. Absorb the boon removals
    2. People to pain absorption from
    3. People to demon facet from
    4. People to hide behind as you run away with dragon heal to reset

    If a build makes someone "bad" go from being ignorable to being a massive problem, then clearly something is off with the build.

    Anyway you seem to have very little experience, I really don't mean this in a rude way but something tells me you mostly zerg in which case you can't really see the problem.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2020

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Josh.4132 said:
    I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

    @Josh.4132 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    But they are better on rev than on most classes and absurdly good against condi.

    I personally use dwarf, it has overall good skills.

    Between resistance and the clears that rev does on condi rev I feel about as good against condi as I do on most other classes

    The thing is though If you’re using cleasing sigils, plus dwarf for the cleanse, plus the condi transfers, plus the resistance. Then you have dedicated a lot of traits and adjusted your build to counter condis, this is how it should be.

    With the exception of dwarf most of those have very low opportunity costs. Dwarf generally isn't used on the problematic build, it usually uses dragon as that's much better for outnumbering people.

    The cleansing potential isn't problematic, the transfer potential is, espec as you can let the stacks grow while you have resistance so there's no real risk to it

    Cleansing works the same for rev as it does for all other classes. Changing our utilities on legend swap sometimes doesn’t help us especially now since you’re forced to swap legend to use the other legend’s stun break because of the loss of empty vessel

    Rev almost swaps on cooldown, because that's how you use energy the most efficient, making cleansing get relatively close to maximum effectiveness on rev, as opposed to builds that swap a lot less.

    I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

    The condis that the actual rev do are at a good spot rn, the transfers are not, yesterday on multiple occasions I got 40+ stacks of torment and 20+ stacks of burn on me just from transfers, from revs that didn't even use any dmg skills. This is essentially a 1 shot, from a very easy situation to trigger.

    For the rev to transfer that amount of condi they would have to have the conditions on themself first. When the rev pulls conditions from allies onto themself they do get a few seconds of resistance to deal with it short term, however, the opponent can dodge/ be out of range of the transfer and then the rev killed themself instead.

    With 5 targets using absorption once gives you 8 sec of resistance. That's not short, that's close enough to forever.

    It's an extremely low risk high reward playstyle that rewards outnumbering the enemy and creates poor play patterns.

    But that's the case for pretty much everything. Outnumbering the enemy will most of the times have more benefits than being outnumbered. Giving out any boon is more effective if you give it to 5 people than to less than 5.

    Boons increase your effectiveness, if you're a better player, you gain a larger benefit. The problem isn't that there's benefits to outnumbering, ofc there should be (the game would be very weird otherwise and even fighting outnumbered would be boring).

    The problem is when those advantages take the form of a very common and oppressive build that gives a disproportionate advantage in these situations.

    This is a similar issue to excessive mobility/burst/invuln builds, they punish outnumbered situations much more than is reasonable and makes combat more often just come down to numbers.

    Same thing as offensive AoE caps, retaliation and the downed state. They give benefits that are arbitrary.

    I still don't understand your point. If you're a better player, you'll be able to better use the mallyx "pull and spread" mechanic, you gain a larger benefit from correctly pulling the conditions onto you and sharing them efficiently by having proper positioning.

    Except that it's so simple that there's no being good or bad at it.

    Most importantly, in my 3 man group for example, I could swap to transfer rev, but most fights

    1. I never have that amount of stacks, except when fighting transfer revs, meaning it's a build whose main counter is itself, clearly unhealthy.

    2. If they have 2 transfer revs they still just win then. Transfers are just a poor mechanic.

    3. I actually have to use my energy to dmg, they don't because they can afford to do no dmg outside of transfers, which is how most of them play.

    Smaller groups can't afford having someone only do that because they're fewer.

    Invoke torment only has a 240 radius, so there's a "being good" at it.

    1. The counter to the build is to just remove/corrupt his resistance, not standing in his 240 radius, or dodge when you see his legend swap icon pop up, since invoke torment is delayed. He'll just kill himself if you do that.

    That's all well and good in theory, but given that they have

    Dmg to healing from dragon, so if they fail and run out of resistance they pop that and run away
    Cover boons, so removing the resistance often doesn't work
    Generally just stand next to you spamming new resistance
    True nature demon has next to no animation

    The problem is mostly that it turns players who play very poorly (most of the people who started playing transfer rev I've seen before on a variety of other stuff where they were ignorable) into massive threats that are very difficult to deal with.

    Tbh, they don't seem very difficult to deal for me. I just remove their resistance, and they just die. You can even throw cover conditions on them, so that they spread the wrong thing. Or just play a power build, since all they apparently do is spam resistance. You could also just use an epidemic and kill their whole team. (After stripping resistance)

    So your suggestions are

    1. Swap to a different class, that seems like a healthy counterplay....
    2. Epidemic against someone who spams resistance... When the skill is already trash, and from a class that's a joke in small groups
    3. 1 person from the enemy team being "useless" doesn't matter super much when you're 3v10.

    You've clearly never played against it

    I'm just giving actual counters. I've actually played against plenty of them, and they've never been a problem. I've either just corrupted their resistance, removed their resistance or kited them.

    It just looks like you don't want to adapt to new things. Pulsating Pestilence has been in the game for a long time, the same for the Glint spread. And now it is suddenly a problem?

    1. If they have 2 transfer revs they'll just steal the conditions from each other, which could lead to one of them spreading nothing at all if he tried to do so at the wrong time. More transfer revs would make it even more complicated to spread at the correct time, since everyone could just pull the conditions to themselves.

    You don't need to time it tho, you just keep repeating the process until it succeeds once, which is all it takes.

    Those 5 revenants spamming resistance are not going to do anything against anyone if they just waste their energy on that. They'll just get killed by any power build / get corrupted by a necro and die.

    1. That's like saying smaller groups can't afford to play pure support builds, since they can afford to do no dmg outside of healing/supporting.

    They can obviously, mostly because healer is a core part of the combat system. They do many things, like heal, boons, clear, cc etc.

    This is more like saying that winds of disenchantment is worse in a 3 man group than in a zerg as 1 person doing "nothing" is a bigger problem there. Or like saying that siege favors the bigger side because you can afford to have 1 person afking on a ballista spamming 1.

    All extremely specialized roles are much weaker in smallscale.

    Yeah, so if "condi spread rev" is a specialized role like the others (which it isn't), why is that one "bad" for the game, but other specialized specs doing their thing aren't?

    Condi transfer rev, big difference

    Most of extremely specialized builds are bad for the game. This is just the one that's relevant to the thread and currently the most common/powerful.

    Stop attributing opinions I don't have. to me

    Yeah, except it is not the most common/powerful build atm. The only one I've seen claiming that is you. Stop attributing your opinion to others. Condi transfer rev is nothing new.

    If you have more people, they could share more boons, making them permanent and it would be "oppressive" to the enemy. Having permanent uptime on every boon and having them fully stacked gives a disproportionate advantage against enemies that aren't fully buffed.

    No it doesn't, because with the exception of resistance/retal, they're all just "multipliers" of how powerful you are. They increase your dmg by a percentage, they don't suddenly make you go from doing no dmg to instagibbing people.

    If you die in 10 sec to power dmg without protection, you die in 15 with it.

    If you do very little dmg because you use your skills poorly, then 25 might means you do very little dmg +20-30% (or whatever 25 stacks of might ends up at).

    Same with quickness, fury, regen, swiftness etc

    I don't know, 25 might and quickness can't pretty quickly turn into a "instagib". Fighting someone with full buffs at all times as someone without buffs is pretty horrendous. I still remember fighting multiple boon beasts in the past.

    It might make them do double normal dmg if they have 25 might/fury/quickness, but double nothing is still nothing.

    The threat is most definitively amplified, but it doesn't turn someone who is completely harmless into a 1 shotting thing that shuts you down.

    ???
    Full boons turn anyone into killing machines that shut down anything, if you yourself don't have any boons. A group of 10 full buffed players will easily roll over a non-buffed 5man team in seconds.

    No it doesn't.

    1. If the 5 man group has no boons they're doing something very wrong
    2. Boons are powerful but someone who does no dmg won't instantly start doing dmg just cause they got boons
    3. Boons are a central part of the game, not a tiny niche like condi transfers are
    4. Boons don't randomly 1 shot you with instant skills

    Yes they do. They will just run over you. Full boon people are killing machines.
    1. Someone that doesn't transfer anything also doesn't do any dmg just because they have conditions on them.
    2. Conditions are a central part of the game, so are any ways that handle them in any way, be that cleanse, transfer or copy.
    3. Awareness is key, if you don't have it, you should die. It's pretty obvious when a revenant is keeping close to you and spamming resistance.
    4. 10man groups will instantly one shot you, no matter what classes they have.

    You also completely ignored the thing about having more people = more potential condi cleanses completely disrupting the spread / stacking of conditions.

    Well more people might mean that sometimes you only transfer 20 instead of 40 stacks, that is still very powerful. If the conditions that was intended to be transferred gets cleared, then you just try again, not like you died.

    That bigger groups overall counter condis is a different matter, as that's nowhere near as oppressive. I do think clears should be more personal and less groupwide but completely different matter.

    More people might also mean that instead of 40 or 20 you transfer 0, since it was cleansed. If you need so much setup to transfer anything, the enemies would already be dead with a full buffed team.

    Gimmicky builds that hardcounter "normal" builds and are extremely easy to play are terrible design. The setup is incredibly easy.

    Obviously making everyone around you suddenly competent for them having boons to really do much would be more powerful, but for better or worse there's no build that suddenly makes their surroundings competent.

    It's not a gimmicky build if it's what makes Mallyx Mallyx. It's a perfectly normal build. You not being able to handle it doesn't make it a gimmick.
    Next thing you're going to say is Aegis on Guard is gimmicky, or boon corrupts on Necro are gimicky.

    Apparently the Mallyx build makes everyone in the enemy team incompetent, since they're all getting hit by a transfer lol.

    You yourself said "outnumbering" the enemy would make the "condi spread rev" stronger, but it actually doesn't, since it gives him even less opportunities to use his tactic. It actually makes pretty much every other build stronger, that doesn't rely on self spreading.

    More targets also means more people to

    1. Absorb the boon removals
    2. People to pain absorption from
    3. People to demon facet from
    4. People to hide behind as you run away with dragon heal to reset

    If a build makes someone "bad" go from being ignorable to being a massive problem, then clearly something is off with the build.

    Anyway you seem to have very little experience, I really don't mean this in a rude way but something tells me you mostly zerg in which case you can't really see the problem.

    The targets for absorb are capped at 5, there can be multiple people using cleanses that hit you. If you're swapping to glint heal you're not in mallyx and are therefore not spamming resistance, nor spamming any transfers, nor pulling any condis to you.

    It seems to be only a problem for you, I haven't actually seen too many complaints apart from yours.
    It looks like you don't really roam a lot, since you seem to have problems with condi revs. Doesn't seem that you have a lot of experience with condi revs. Maybe instead of mindlessly running into a higher enemy count of players, and then crying about loosing to a "simple-minded" build, you should actually check what your own build is capable of.

    It's also pretty funny that someone with "very little experience" seems to have an easier time combatting this build than someone that claims to know a lot more.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you. Umbasa.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Josh.4132 said:
    I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

    @Josh.4132 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    But they are better on rev than on most classes and absurdly good against condi.

    I personally use dwarf, it has overall good skills.

    Between resistance and the clears that rev does on condi rev I feel about as good against condi as I do on most other classes

    The thing is though If you’re using cleasing sigils, plus dwarf for the cleanse, plus the condi transfers, plus the resistance. Then you have dedicated a lot of traits and adjusted your build to counter condis, this is how it should be.

    With the exception of dwarf most of those have very low opportunity costs. Dwarf generally isn't used on the problematic build, it usually uses dragon as that's much better for outnumbering people.

    The cleansing potential isn't problematic, the transfer potential is, espec as you can let the stacks grow while you have resistance so there's no real risk to it

    Cleansing works the same for rev as it does for all other classes. Changing our utilities on legend swap sometimes doesn’t help us especially now since you’re forced to swap legend to use the other legend’s stun break because of the loss of empty vessel

    Rev almost swaps on cooldown, because that's how you use energy the most efficient, making cleansing get relatively close to maximum effectiveness on rev, as opposed to builds that swap a lot less.

    I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

    The condis that the actual rev do are at a good spot rn, the transfers are not, yesterday on multiple occasions I got 40+ stacks of torment and 20+ stacks of burn on me just from transfers, from revs that didn't even use any dmg skills. This is essentially a 1 shot, from a very easy situation to trigger.

    For the rev to transfer that amount of condi they would have to have the conditions on themself first. When the rev pulls conditions from allies onto themself they do get a few seconds of resistance to deal with it short term, however, the opponent can dodge/ be out of range of the transfer and then the rev killed themself instead.

    With 5 targets using absorption once gives you 8 sec of resistance. That's not short, that's close enough to forever.

    It's an extremely low risk high reward playstyle that rewards outnumbering the enemy and creates poor play patterns.

    But that's the case for pretty much everything. Outnumbering the enemy will most of the times have more benefits than being outnumbered. Giving out any boon is more effective if you give it to 5 people than to less than 5.

    Boons increase your effectiveness, if you're a better player, you gain a larger benefit. The problem isn't that there's benefits to outnumbering, ofc there should be (the game would be very weird otherwise and even fighting outnumbered would be boring).

    The problem is when those advantages take the form of a very common and oppressive build that gives a disproportionate advantage in these situations.

    This is a similar issue to excessive mobility/burst/invuln builds, they punish outnumbered situations much more than is reasonable and makes combat more often just come down to numbers.

    Same thing as offensive AoE caps, retaliation and the downed state. They give benefits that are arbitrary.

    I still don't understand your point. If you're a better player, you'll be able to better use the mallyx "pull and spread" mechanic, you gain a larger benefit from correctly pulling the conditions onto you and sharing them efficiently by having proper positioning.

    Except that it's so simple that there's no being good or bad at it.

    Most importantly, in my 3 man group for example, I could swap to transfer rev, but most fights

    1. I never have that amount of stacks, except when fighting transfer revs, meaning it's a build whose main counter is itself, clearly unhealthy.

    2. If they have 2 transfer revs they still just win then. Transfers are just a poor mechanic.

    3. I actually have to use my energy to dmg, they don't because they can afford to do no dmg outside of transfers, which is how most of them play.

    Smaller groups can't afford having someone only do that because they're fewer.

    Invoke torment only has a 240 radius, so there's a "being good" at it.

    1. The counter to the build is to just remove/corrupt his resistance, not standing in his 240 radius, or dodge when you see his legend swap icon pop up, since invoke torment is delayed. He'll just kill himself if you do that.

    That's all well and good in theory, but given that they have

    Dmg to healing from dragon, so if they fail and run out of resistance they pop that and run away
    Cover boons, so removing the resistance often doesn't work
    Generally just stand next to you spamming new resistance
    True nature demon has next to no animation

    The problem is mostly that it turns players who play very poorly (most of the people who started playing transfer rev I've seen before on a variety of other stuff where they were ignorable) into massive threats that are very difficult to deal with.

    Tbh, they don't seem very difficult to deal for me. I just remove their resistance, and they just die. You can even throw cover conditions on them, so that they spread the wrong thing. Or just play a power build, since all they apparently do is spam resistance. You could also just use an epidemic and kill their whole team. (After stripping resistance)

    So your suggestions are

    1. Swap to a different class, that seems like a healthy counterplay....
    2. Epidemic against someone who spams resistance... When the skill is already trash, and from a class that's a joke in small groups
    3. 1 person from the enemy team being "useless" doesn't matter super much when you're 3v10.

    You've clearly never played against it

    I'm just giving actual counters. I've actually played against plenty of them, and they've never been a problem. I've either just corrupted their resistance, removed their resistance or kited them.

    Actually none of those are counters. The fact that you mention epidemic kinda says it all.

    It just looks like you don't want to adapt to new things. Pulsating Pestilence has been in the game for a long time, the same for the Glint spread. And now it is suddenly a problem?

    It was a problem last patch, just less common. The herald transfer is the bigger problem.

    1. If they have 2 transfer revs they'll just steal the conditions from each other, which could lead to one of them spreading nothing at all if he tried to do so at the wrong time. More transfer revs would make it even more complicated to spread at the correct time, since everyone could just pull the conditions to themselves.

    You don't need to time it tho, you just keep repeating the process until it succeeds once, which is all it takes.

    Those 5 revenants spamming resistance are not going to do anything against anyone if they just waste their energy on that. They'll just get killed by any power build / get corrupted by a necro and die.

    1. That's like saying smaller groups can't afford to play pure support builds, since they can afford to do no dmg outside of healing/supporting.

    They can obviously, mostly because healer is a core part of the combat system. They do many things, like heal, boons, clear, cc etc.

    This is more like saying that winds of disenchantment is worse in a 3 man group than in a zerg as 1 person doing "nothing" is a bigger problem there. Or like saying that siege favors the bigger side because you can afford to have 1 person afking on a ballista spamming 1.

    All extremely specialized roles are much weaker in smallscale.

    Yeah, so if "condi spread rev" is a specialized role like the others (which it isn't), why is that one "bad" for the game, but other specialized specs doing their thing aren't?

    Condi transfer rev, big difference

    Most of extremely specialized builds are bad for the game. This is just the one that's relevant to the thread and currently the most common/powerful.

    Stop attributing opinions I don't have. to me

    Yeah, except it is not the most common/powerful build atm. The only one I've seen claiming that is you. Stop attributing your opinion to others. Condi transfer rev is nothing new.

    It's the most common/powerful gimick build atm. It's more common than last patch. I am well aware it's existed since true nature - demon was added.

    When I encountered it twice a week it just didn't really feel like an issue, as annoying as it was, now I encounter it on a daily basis.

    If you have more people, they could share more boons, making them permanent and it would be "oppressive" to the enemy. Having permanent uptime on every boon and having them fully stacked gives a disproportionate advantage against enemies that aren't fully buffed.

    No it doesn't, because with the exception of resistance/retal, they're all just "multipliers" of how powerful you are. They increase your dmg by a percentage, they don't suddenly make you go from doing no dmg to instagibbing people.

    If you die in 10 sec to power dmg without protection, you die in 15 with it.

    If you do very little dmg because you use your skills poorly, then 25 might means you do very little dmg +20-30% (or whatever 25 stacks of might ends up at).

    Same with quickness, fury, regen, swiftness etc

    I don't know, 25 might and quickness can't pretty quickly turn into a "instagib". Fighting someone with full buffs at all times as someone without buffs is pretty horrendous. I still remember fighting multiple boon beasts in the past.

    It might make them do double normal dmg if they have 25 might/fury/quickness, but double nothing is still nothing.

    The threat is most definitively amplified, but it doesn't turn someone who is completely harmless into a 1 shotting thing that shuts you down.

    ???
    Full boons turn anyone into killing machines that shut down anything, if you yourself don't have any boons. A group of 10 full buffed players will easily roll over a non-buffed 5man team in seconds.

    No it doesn't.

    1. If the 5 man group has no boons they're doing something very wrong
    2. Boons are powerful but someone who does no dmg won't instantly start doing dmg just cause they got boons
    3. Boons are a central part of the game, not a tiny niche like condi transfers are
    4. Boons don't randomly 1 shot you with instant skills

    Yes they do. They will just run over you. Full boon people are killing machines.

    Not if they're bad, people don't turn into "killing machines" just cause they have a few boons. If you struggle with this, then that's a personal failing.

    1. Someone that doesn't transfer anything also doesn't do any dmg just because they have conditions on them.

    With the extremely low cooldown on the transfers they can just keep trying til they succeed.

    1. Conditions are a central part of the game, so are any ways that handle them in any way, be that cleanse, transfer or copy.

    Conditions are. Transfers are very rare, they only exist on Rev and Necro. Herald has a total of 2 sources of it, that's hardly a "central part of the game". Changing the transfers to conversions/cleanses wouldn't take away much except a way to cheese fights where you already outnumber the enemy.

    1. Awareness is key, if you don't have it, you should die. It's pretty obvious when a revenant is keeping close to you and spamming resistance.

    Being aware of it doesn't mean that you can stop it. I am always aware that they're gonna do it, that doesn't mean it is something that I can stop.

    1. 10man groups will instantly one shot you, no matter what classes they have.

    3v10s (or similar) for example happen quite often in my experience.

    Obviously this doesn't work if the 10 are competent, but then it doesn't really matter what they play as 3v10 competent people is an impossible fight either way.

    You also completely ignored the thing about having more people = more potential condi cleanses completely disrupting the spread / stacking of conditions.

    Well more people might mean that sometimes you only transfer 20 instead of 40 stacks, that is still very powerful. If the conditions that was intended to be transferred gets cleared, then you just try again, not like you died.

    That bigger groups overall counter condis is a different matter, as that's nowhere near as oppressive. I do think clears should be more personal and less groupwide but completely different matter.

    More people might also mean that instead of 40 or 20 you transfer 0, since it was cleansed. If you need so much setup to transfer anything, the enemies would already be dead with a full buffed team.

    Gimmicky builds that hardcounter "normal" builds and are extremely easy to play are terrible design. The setup is incredibly easy.

    Obviously making everyone around you suddenly competent for them having boons to really do much would be more powerful, but for better or worse there's no build that suddenly makes their surroundings competent.

    It's not a gimmicky build if it's what makes Mallyx Mallyx. It's a perfectly normal build. You not being able to handle it doesn't make it a gimmick.

    If all you think Mallyx is, is herald f2 and one trait (that btw isn't actually connected to mallyx, but usually used in conjunction with) then you seem to have an extremely limited view.

    Next thing you're going to say is Aegis on Guard is gimmicky, or boon corrupts on Necro are gimicky.

    Nope.

    Apparently the Mallyx build makes everyone in the enemy team incompetent, since they're all getting hit by a transfer lol.

    Nice try. Mallyx is "slightly" more than true nature - demon (which is the bigger problem) and permeating pestilence.

    You yourself said "outnumbering" the enemy would make the "condi spread rev" stronger, but it actually doesn't, since it gives him even less opportunities to use his tactic. It actually makes pretty much every other build stronger, that doesn't rely on self spreading.

    More targets also means more people to

    1. Absorb the boon removals
    2. People to pain absorption from
    3. People to demon facet from
    4. People to hide behind as you run away with dragon heal to reset

    If a build makes someone "bad" go from being ignorable to being a massive problem, then clearly something is off with the build.

    Anyway you seem to have very little experience, I really don't mean this in a rude way but something tells me you mostly zerg in which case you can't really see the problem.

    The targets for absorb are capped at 5, there can be multiple people using cleanses that hit you. If you're running the glint heal you're not in mallyx and are therefore not spamming resistance, nor spamming any transfers, nor pulling any condis to you.

    It's a panic button for if people focus the transfer rev, the exact kind that is powerful when outnumbering the enemy. They can btw transfer when swapping from dragon too.

    It seems to be only a problem for you, I haven't actually seen too many complaints apart from yours.
    It looks like you don't really roam a lot, since you seem to have problems with condi revs. Doesn't seem that you have a lot of experience with condi revs. Maybe instead of mindlessly running into a higher enemy count of players, and then crying about loosing to a "simple-minded" build, you should actually check what your own build is capable of.

    I am well aware of what my build can do.

    Which is why I am capable of saying that something is clearly busted if it completely changes the dynamics of fights to such a degree that people you were 3v10ing 2 hours ago have 1(rather mediocre) player from their group swap to transfer rev and suddenly the fight goes from easy to extremely difficult, then that probably hints at something being broken.

    It's also pretty funny that someone with "very little experience" seems to have an easier time combatting this build than someone that claims to know a lot more.

    Ya it's so hard to "counter" things when zerging /sarcasm

    You seem extremely invested in defending this I wonder why...

    Anyway, I am not gonna waste anymore breath on you, I doubt it would lead anywhere, except you trying to compare stuff like boons to transfers and suggest things like epidemic to counter a build with high resistance uptime and strong clears, which is kinda funny, but is getting kinda old.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Transfer herald does seem very problematic so far

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2020

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    You seem extremely invested in defending this I wonder why...

    Anyway, I am not gonna waste anymore breath on you, I doubt it would lead anywhere, except you trying to compare stuff like boons to transfers and suggest things like epidemic to counter a build with high resistance uptime and strong clears, which is kinda funny, but is getting kinda old.

    Easy, because it was a playstyle since the release of rev, more or less. It used to be copy, and I still enjoy that playstyle. You're trying to destroy a playstyle just because you don't know how to counter it.

    Yeah, it is getting kinda old, since you seem to be the only one (Edit: 2 now) that actually has a problem with that playstyle. Oh well, I didn't expect anything else from someone that calls this build a "gimmick". So much for having a lot of experience. Guess you just zerg a lot more than me.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you. Umbasa.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    You seem extremely invested in defending this I wonder why...

    Anyway, I am not gonna waste anymore breath on you, I doubt it would lead anywhere, except you trying to compare stuff like boons to transfers and suggest things like epidemic to counter a build with high resistance uptime and strong clears, which is kinda funny, but is getting kinda old.

    I want gonna reply but given that you basically admitted to having it as your favorite build I felt compelled to do it once more.

    Easy, because it was a playstyle since the release of rev, more or less. It used to be copy, and I still enjoy that playstyle. You're trying to destroy a playstyle just because you don't know how to counter it.

    The herald part wasn't. Which is the more problematic part.

    Whether I can counter it or not doesn't matter (I know how, it's more a matter of when it's actually possible). What matters is if it's broken and enables poor play patterns. Which it does.

    Yeah, it is getting kinda old, since you seem to be the only one (Edit: 2 now) that actually has a problem with that playstyle. Oh well, I didn't expect anything else from someone that calls this build a "gimmick". So much for having a lot of experience.

    You can't claim to speak for a majority.

    An extremely one dimensional builds is what is generally called a gimmick build, transfer rev fall into this category, normal condi rev doesn't.

    ghost thief
    One shot axe/gs sb
    1 shot scrapper
    Etc

    Anyway if all you're doing is trying to defend your pet gimmick then this really will lead nowhere.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    You seem extremely invested in defending this I wonder why...

    Anyway, I am not gonna waste anymore breath on you, I doubt it would lead anywhere, except you trying to compare stuff like boons to transfers and suggest things like epidemic to counter a build with high resistance uptime and strong clears, which is kinda funny, but is getting kinda old.

    I want gonna reply but given that you basically admitted to having it as your favorite build I felt compelled to do it once more.

    Easy, because it was a playstyle since the release of rev, more or less. It used to be copy, and I still enjoy that playstyle. You're trying to destroy a playstyle just because you don't know how to counter it.

    The herald part wasn't. Which is the more problematic part.

    Whether I can counter it or not doesn't matter (I know how, it's more a matter of when it's actually possible). What matters is if it's broken and enables poor play patterns. Which it does.

    Yeah, it is getting kinda old, since you seem to be the only one (Edit: 2 now) that actually has a problem with that playstyle. Oh well, I didn't expect anything else from someone that calls this build a "gimmick". So much for having a lot of experience.

    You can't claim to speak for a majority.

    An extremely one dimensional builds is what is generally called a gimmick build, transfer rev fall into this category, normal condi rev doesn't.

    ghost thief
    One shot axe/gs sb
    1 shot scrapper
    Etc

    Anyway if all you're doing is trying to defend your pet gimmick then this really will lead nowhere.

    Never said it was my favourite build, nice try though. It does matter if you can counter it, since barely anyone else seems to have a problem with it.
    You seem to be the only one calling it a gimmick build. You calling it one won't make it a fact.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you. Umbasa.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    You seem extremely invested in defending this I wonder why...

    Anyway, I am not gonna waste anymore breath on you, I doubt it would lead anywhere, except you trying to compare stuff like boons to transfers and suggest things like epidemic to counter a build with high resistance uptime and strong clears, which is kinda funny, but is getting kinda old.

    I want gonna reply but given that you basically admitted to having it as your favorite build I felt compelled to do it once more.

    Easy, because it was a playstyle since the release of rev, more or less. It used to be copy, and I still enjoy that playstyle. You're trying to destroy a playstyle just because you don't know how to counter it.

    The herald part wasn't. Which is the more problematic part.

    Whether I can counter it or not doesn't matter (I know how, it's more a matter of when it's actually possible). What matters is if it's broken and enables poor play patterns. Which it does.

    Yeah, it is getting kinda old, since you seem to be the only one (Edit: 2 now) that actually has a problem with that playstyle. Oh well, I didn't expect anything else from someone that calls this build a "gimmick". So much for having a lot of experience.

    You can't claim to speak for a majority.

    An extremely one dimensional builds is what is generally called a gimmick build, transfer rev fall into this category, normal condi rev doesn't.

    ghost thief
    One shot axe/gs sb
    1 shot scrapper
    Etc

    Anyway if all you're doing is trying to defend your pet gimmick then this really will lead nowhere.

    Never said it was my favourite build, nice try though. It does matter if you can counter it, since barely anyone else seems to have a problem with it.

    Well you do seem to love it, whether there's a build you like more isn't really relevant.

    You try to speak for a majority again.

    That's assuming everyone who has a problem with it writes about it on the forum. That's a pretty bold assumption, espec given how there's at least 1 more person in this thread alone calling it problematic and only you defending it. But either way none of us can know what the rest of the community thinks on this matter.

    You seem to be the only one calling it a gimmick build. You calling it one won't make it a fact.

    Actually you have no who does or doesn't call it one.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If these complaints about condi Rev are in regards to WvW, I suggest that before they make any class-based adjustments, they completely rework the 6-piece bonus of Tormenting Runes. Without them, sure, condi Rev is still strong, but Tormenting Runes are what give them the godly sustain in teamfights that they currently have. Especially with sustain being brought down, 171 per stack of torment is completely broken, especially considering it has no ICD. The delay that they added to Invoke Torment was a very good step in the right direction for healthy counterplay, and I would say between that and swap transfers being brought down to 2 condis, Permeating Pestilence is fine. True Nature is probably a bit more problematic, I do agree.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    You seem extremely invested in defending this I wonder why...

    Anyway, I am not gonna waste anymore breath on you, I doubt it would lead anywhere, except you trying to compare stuff like boons to transfers and suggest things like epidemic to counter a build with high resistance uptime and strong clears, which is kinda funny, but is getting kinda old.

    I want gonna reply but given that you basically admitted to having it as your favorite build I felt compelled to do it once more.

    Easy, because it was a playstyle since the release of rev, more or less. It used to be copy, and I still enjoy that playstyle. You're trying to destroy a playstyle just because you don't know how to counter it.

    The herald part wasn't. Which is the more problematic part.

    Whether I can counter it or not doesn't matter (I know how, it's more a matter of when it's actually possible). What matters is if it's broken and enables poor play patterns. Which it does.

    Yeah, it is getting kinda old, since you seem to be the only one (Edit: 2 now) that actually has a problem with that playstyle. Oh well, I didn't expect anything else from someone that calls this build a "gimmick". So much for having a lot of experience.

    You can't claim to speak for a majority.

    An extremely one dimensional builds is what is generally called a gimmick build, transfer rev fall into this category, normal condi rev doesn't.

    ghost thief
    One shot axe/gs sb
    1 shot scrapper
    Etc

    Anyway if all you're doing is trying to defend your pet gimmick then this really will lead nowhere.

    Never said it was my favourite build, nice try though. It does matter if you can counter it, since barely anyone else seems to have a problem with it.

    Well you do seem to love it, whether there's a build you like more isn't really relevant.

    You try to speak for a majority again.

    That's assuming everyone who has a problem with it writes about it on the forum. That's a pretty bold assumption, espec given how there's at least 1 more person in this thread alone calling it problematic and only you defending it. But either way none of us can know what the rest of the community thinks on this matter.

    You seem to be the only one calling it a gimmick build. You calling it one won't make it a fact.

    Actually you have no who does or doesn't call it one.

    So much for "stopping" with the responding. I don't love it, I'm just against removing a perfectly fine build, because someone isn't able to beat it, and doesn't seem to try adjusting to it.

    I'm not trying to speak for the majority, I'm just saying I've only seen you call it a "gimick" till now. It's like you're trying to talk for the majority by trying to convert a completely fine build to a "gimick" build. So yeah, it still won't make it a fact.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you. Umbasa.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    You seem extremely invested in defending this I wonder why...

    Anyway, I am not gonna waste anymore breath on you, I doubt it would lead anywhere, except you trying to compare stuff like boons to transfers and suggest things like epidemic to counter a build with high resistance uptime and strong clears, which is kinda funny, but is getting kinda old.

    I want gonna reply but given that you basically admitted to having it as your favorite build I felt compelled to do it once more.

    Easy, because it was a playstyle since the release of rev, more or less. It used to be copy, and I still enjoy that playstyle. You're trying to destroy a playstyle just because you don't know how to counter it.

    The herald part wasn't. Which is the more problematic part.

    Whether I can counter it or not doesn't matter (I know how, it's more a matter of when it's actually possible). What matters is if it's broken and enables poor play patterns. Which it does.

    Yeah, it is getting kinda old, since you seem to be the only one (Edit: 2 now) that actually has a problem with that playstyle. Oh well, I didn't expect anything else from someone that calls this build a "gimmick". So much for having a lot of experience.

    You can't claim to speak for a majority.

    An extremely one dimensional builds is what is generally called a gimmick build, transfer rev fall into this category, normal condi rev doesn't.

    ghost thief
    One shot axe/gs sb
    1 shot scrapper
    Etc

    Anyway if all you're doing is trying to defend your pet gimmick then this really will lead nowhere.

    Never said it was my favourite build, nice try though. It does matter if you can counter it, since barely anyone else seems to have a problem with it.

    Well you do seem to love it, whether there's a build you like more isn't really relevant.

    You try to speak for a majority again.

    That's assuming everyone who has a problem with it writes about it on the forum. That's a pretty bold assumption, espec given how there's at least 1 more person in this thread alone calling it problematic and only you defending it. But either way none of us can know what the rest of the community thinks on this matter.

    You seem to be the only one calling it a gimmick build. You calling it one won't make it a fact.

    Actually you have no who does or doesn't call it one.

    So much for "stopping" with the responding. I don't love it, I'm just against removing a perfectly fine build, because someone isn't able to beat it, and doesn't seem to try adjusting to it.

    It just became more fun when you admitted that you loved it and played it since release and then started backpaddlimg

    I'm not trying to speak for the majority, I'm just saying I've only seen you call it a "gimick" till now. It's like you're trying to talk for the majority by trying to convert a completely fine build to a "gimick" build. So yeah, it still won't make it a fact.

    I actually don't speak for a majority, but the stance "one dimensional builds are gimmicky" is one I am willing to defend tho.

    Transfer rev is extremely one dimensional in the situations where it's good. Is another stance I have no issues defending.

    But I honestly have no clue if the majority agrees, nor do I particularly care.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2020

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    You seem extremely invested in defending this I wonder why...

    Anyway, I am not gonna waste anymore breath on you, I doubt it would lead anywhere, except you trying to compare stuff like boons to transfers and suggest things like epidemic to counter a build with high resistance uptime and strong clears, which is kinda funny, but is getting kinda old.

    I want gonna reply but given that you basically admitted to having it as your favorite build I felt compelled to do it once more.

    Easy, because it was a playstyle since the release of rev, more or less. It used to be copy, and I still enjoy that playstyle. You're trying to destroy a playstyle just because you don't know how to counter it.

    The herald part wasn't. Which is the more problematic part.

    Whether I can counter it or not doesn't matter (I know how, it's more a matter of when it's actually possible). What matters is if it's broken and enables poor play patterns. Which it does.

    Yeah, it is getting kinda old, since you seem to be the only one (Edit: 2 now) that actually has a problem with that playstyle. Oh well, I didn't expect anything else from someone that calls this build a "gimmick". So much for having a lot of experience.

    You can't claim to speak for a majority.

    An extremely one dimensional builds is what is generally called a gimmick build, transfer rev fall into this category, normal condi rev doesn't.

    ghost thief
    One shot axe/gs sb
    1 shot scrapper
    Etc

    Anyway if all you're doing is trying to defend your pet gimmick then this really will lead nowhere.

    Never said it was my favourite build, nice try though. It does matter if you can counter it, since barely anyone else seems to have a problem with it.

    Well you do seem to love it, whether there's a build you like more isn't really relevant.

    You try to speak for a majority again.

    That's assuming everyone who has a problem with it writes about it on the forum. That's a pretty bold assumption, espec given how there's at least 1 more person in this thread alone calling it problematic and only you defending it. But either way none of us can know what the rest of the community thinks on this matter.

    You seem to be the only one calling it a gimmick build. You calling it one won't make it a fact.

    Actually you have no who does or doesn't call it one.

    So much for "stopping" with the responding. I don't love it, I'm just against removing a perfectly fine build, because someone isn't able to beat it, and doesn't seem to try adjusting to it.

    It just became more fun when you admitted that you loved it and played it since release and then started backpaddlimg

    I'm not trying to speak for the majority, I'm just saying I've only seen you call it a "gimick" till now. It's like you're trying to talk for the majority by trying to convert a completely fine build to a "gimick" build. So yeah, it still won't make it a fact.

    I actually don't speak for a majority, but the stance "one dimensional builds are gimmicky" is one I am willing to defend tho.

    Transfer rev is extremely one dimensional in the situations where it's good. Is another stance I have no issues defending.

    But I honestly have no clue if the majority agrees, nor do I particularly care.

    Still never said that I love it, just that I like playing it and the concept. It's pretty obvious what you're trying to do here.
    You're trying to speak for the majority. It's still not a gimicky build. Transfer rev is not one dimensional. That's like saying necro boon corrupt is one dimensional.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you. Umbasa.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    You seem extremely invested in defending this I wonder why...

    Anyway, I am not gonna waste anymore breath on you, I doubt it would lead anywhere, except you trying to compare stuff like boons to transfers and suggest things like epidemic to counter a build with high resistance uptime and strong clears, which is kinda funny, but is getting kinda old.

    I want gonna reply but given that you basically admitted to having it as your favorite build I felt compelled to do it once more.

    Easy, because it was a playstyle since the release of rev, more or less. It used to be copy, and I still enjoy that playstyle. You're trying to destroy a playstyle just because you don't know how to counter it.

    The herald part wasn't. Which is the more problematic part.

    Whether I can counter it or not doesn't matter (I know how, it's more a matter of when it's actually possible). What matters is if it's broken and enables poor play patterns. Which it does.

    Yeah, it is getting kinda old, since you seem to be the only one (Edit: 2 now) that actually has a problem with that playstyle. Oh well, I didn't expect anything else from someone that calls this build a "gimmick". So much for having a lot of experience.

    You can't claim to speak for a majority.

    An extremely one dimensional builds is what is generally called a gimmick build, transfer rev fall into this category, normal condi rev doesn't.

    ghost thief
    One shot axe/gs sb
    1 shot scrapper
    Etc

    Anyway if all you're doing is trying to defend your pet gimmick then this really will lead nowhere.

    Never said it was my favourite build, nice try though. It does matter if you can counter it, since barely anyone else seems to have a problem with it.

    Well you do seem to love it, whether there's a build you like more isn't really relevant.

    You try to speak for a majority again.

    That's assuming everyone who has a problem with it writes about it on the forum. That's a pretty bold assumption, espec given how there's at least 1 more person in this thread alone calling it problematic and only you defending it. But either way none of us can know what the rest of the community thinks on this matter.

    You seem to be the only one calling it a gimmick build. You calling it one won't make it a fact.

    Actually you have no who does or doesn't call it one.

    So much for "stopping" with the responding. I don't love it, I'm just against removing a perfectly fine build, because someone isn't able to beat it, and doesn't seem to try adjusting to it.

    It just became more fun when you admitted that you loved it and played it since release and then started backpaddlimg

    I'm not trying to speak for the majority, I'm just saying I've only seen you call it a "gimick" till now. It's like you're trying to talk for the majority by trying to convert a completely fine build to a "gimick" build. So yeah, it still won't make it a fact.

    I actually don't speak for a majority, but the stance "one dimensional builds are gimmicky" is one I am willing to defend tho.

    Transfer rev is extremely one dimensional in the situations where it's good. Is another stance I have no issues defending.

    But I honestly have no clue if the majority agrees, nor do I particularly care.

    Still never said that I love it, just that I like playing it and the concept. It's pretty obvious what you're trying to do here.

    Like/love are just varying levels of the same emotion... They just have to do with intensity if you're making the argument that you like and don't love it that's beyond absurd.

    You clearly care enough about it to get upset and hurl insults when someone dislikes it.

    You're trying to speak for the majority. It's still not a gimicky build. Transfer rev is not one dimensional. That's like saying necro boon corrupt is one dimensional.

    I specifically said I have no idea what the majority opinion is. You keep saying "most people" agree with you.

    Yet you try to claim I try to speak for the majority.

    Corrupt necro isn't tho. The comparison isn't only halting it's like trying to compare transfer rev with apples.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2020

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    You seem extremely invested in defending this I wonder why...

    Anyway, I am not gonna waste anymore breath on you, I doubt it would lead anywhere, except you trying to compare stuff like boons to transfers and suggest things like epidemic to counter a build with high resistance uptime and strong clears, which is kinda funny, but is getting kinda old.

    I want gonna reply but given that you basically admitted to having it as your favorite build I felt compelled to do it once more.

    Easy, because it was a playstyle since the release of rev, more or less. It used to be copy, and I still enjoy that playstyle. You're trying to destroy a playstyle just because you don't know how to counter it.

    The herald part wasn't. Which is the more problematic part.

    Whether I can counter it or not doesn't matter (I know how, it's more a matter of when it's actually possible). What matters is if it's broken and enables poor play patterns. Which it does.

    Yeah, it is getting kinda old, since you seem to be the only one (Edit: 2 now) that actually has a problem with that playstyle. Oh well, I didn't expect anything else from someone that calls this build a "gimmick". So much for having a lot of experience.

    You can't claim to speak for a majority.

    An extremely one dimensional builds is what is generally called a gimmick build, transfer rev fall into this category, normal condi rev doesn't.

    ghost thief
    One shot axe/gs sb
    1 shot scrapper
    Etc

    Anyway if all you're doing is trying to defend your pet gimmick then this really will lead nowhere.

    Never said it was my favourite build, nice try though. It does matter if you can counter it, since barely anyone else seems to have a problem with it.

    Well you do seem to love it, whether there's a build you like more isn't really relevant.

    You try to speak for a majority again.

    That's assuming everyone who has a problem with it writes about it on the forum. That's a pretty bold assumption, espec given how there's at least 1 more person in this thread alone calling it problematic and only you defending it. But either way none of us can know what the rest of the community thinks on this matter.

    You seem to be the only one calling it a gimmick build. You calling it one won't make it a fact.

    Actually you have no who does or doesn't call it one.

    So much for "stopping" with the responding. I don't love it, I'm just against removing a perfectly fine build, because someone isn't able to beat it, and doesn't seem to try adjusting to it.

    It just became more fun when you admitted that you loved it and played it since release and then started backpaddlimg

    I'm not trying to speak for the majority, I'm just saying I've only seen you call it a "gimick" till now. It's like you're trying to talk for the majority by trying to convert a completely fine build to a "gimick" build. So yeah, it still won't make it a fact.

    I actually don't speak for a majority, but the stance "one dimensional builds are gimmicky" is one I am willing to defend tho.

    Transfer rev is extremely one dimensional in the situations where it's good. Is another stance I have no issues defending.

    But I honestly have no clue if the majority agrees, nor do I particularly care.

    Still never said that I love it, just that I like playing it and the concept. It's pretty obvious what you're trying to do here.

    Like/love are just varying levels of the same emotion... They just have to do with intensity if you're making the argument that you like and don't love it that's beyond absurd.

    You clearly care enough about it to get upset and hurl insults when someone dislikes it.

    You're trying to speak for the majority. It's still not a gimicky build. Transfer rev is not one dimensional. That's like saying necro boon corrupt is one dimensional.

    I specifically said I have no idea what the majority opinion is. You keep saying "most people" agree with you.

    Yet you try to claim I try to speak for the majority.

    Corrupt necro isn't tho. The comparison isn't only halting it's like trying to compare transfer rev with apples.

    You trying to say love / favourite / like is the same is pretty absurd tbh.

    Which insults? I've only been saying that you seem to be having trouble beating the transfer revs, which seems to be true based on your statements that there are no real counters. You were the one trying to hurl things like unexperienced, "just zergs" etc., so don't try to play the innocent person here.
    Condi rev with transfer, or "transfer-rev", is also pretty good in smallscale fights, even when outnumbered. Your "overperforming when outnumbering" argument has to be one of the silliest things I've ever heard though.

    I've never said that most people agree with me, just that you are the only one I've seen calling it a gimmick build, which it isn't. You're the one that started the "majority" thing. And you're pretty adamant on condi rev with transfer traits being a "gimmick", instead of the transfer part being a part of the whole condi rev. You're trying to delete a playstyle, just because you don't like it.

    Corrupt necro is a fitting comparison, since you're stating the transfer part of a condi revenant is the whole build. That would be like saying the corruption part of a necro is his whole build.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you. Umbasa.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2020

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    You seem extremely invested in defending this I wonder why...

    Anyway, I am not gonna waste anymore breath on you, I doubt it would lead anywhere, except you trying to compare stuff like boons to transfers and suggest things like epidemic to counter a build with high resistance uptime and strong clears, which is kinda funny, but is getting kinda old.

    I want gonna reply but given that you basically admitted to having it as your favorite build I felt compelled to do it once more.

    Easy, because it was a playstyle since the release of rev, more or less. It used to be copy, and I still enjoy that playstyle. You're trying to destroy a playstyle just because you don't know how to counter it.

    The herald part wasn't. Which is the more problematic part.

    Whether I can counter it or not doesn't matter (I know how, it's more a matter of when it's actually possible). What matters is if it's broken and enables poor play patterns. Which it does.

    Yeah, it is getting kinda old, since you seem to be the only one (Edit: 2 now) that actually has a problem with that playstyle. Oh well, I didn't expect anything else from someone that calls this build a "gimmick". So much for having a lot of experience.

    You can't claim to speak for a majority.

    An extremely one dimensional builds is what is generally called a gimmick build, transfer rev fall into this category, normal condi rev doesn't.

    ghost thief
    One shot axe/gs sb
    1 shot scrapper
    Etc

    Anyway if all you're doing is trying to defend your pet gimmick then this really will lead nowhere.

    Never said it was my favourite build, nice try though. It does matter if you can counter it, since barely anyone else seems to have a problem with it.

    Well you do seem to love it, whether there's a build you like more isn't really relevant.

    You try to speak for a majority again.

    That's assuming everyone who has a problem with it writes about it on the forum. That's a pretty bold assumption, espec given how there's at least 1 more person in this thread alone calling it problematic and only you defending it. But either way none of us can know what the rest of the community thinks on this matter.

    You seem to be the only one calling it a gimmick build. You calling it one won't make it a fact.

    Actually you have no who does or doesn't call it one.

    So much for "stopping" with the responding. I don't love it, I'm just against removing a perfectly fine build, because someone isn't able to beat it, and doesn't seem to try adjusting to it.

    It just became more fun when you admitted that you loved it and played it since release and then started backpaddlimg

    I'm not trying to speak for the majority, I'm just saying I've only seen you call it a "gimick" till now. It's like you're trying to talk for the majority by trying to convert a completely fine build to a "gimick" build. So yeah, it still won't make it a fact.

    I actually don't speak for a majority, but the stance "one dimensional builds are gimmicky" is one I am willing to defend tho.

    Transfer rev is extremely one dimensional in the situations where it's good. Is another stance I have no issues defending.

    But I honestly have no clue if the majority agrees, nor do I particularly care.

    Still never said that I love it, just that I like playing it and the concept. It's pretty obvious what you're trying to do here.

    Like/love are just varying levels of the same emotion... They just have to do with intensity if you're making the argument that you like and don't love it that's beyond absurd.

    You clearly care enough about it to get upset and hurl insults when someone dislikes it.

    You're trying to speak for the majority. It's still not a gimicky build. Transfer rev is not one dimensional. That's like saying necro boon corrupt is one dimensional.

    I specifically said I have no idea what the majority opinion is. You keep saying "most people" agree with you.

    Yet you try to claim I try to speak for the majority.

    Corrupt necro isn't tho. The comparison isn't only halting it's like trying to compare transfer rev with apples.

    You trying to say love / favourite / like is the same is pretty absurd tbh.

    Oh do explain the difference then.

    Favorite might not be the same but do explain the difference between loving and liking something.

    Which insults? I've only been saying that you seem to be having trouble beating the transfer revs, which seems to be true based on your statements that there are no real counters. You were the one trying to hurl things like unexperienced, "just zergs" etc., so don't try to play the innocent person here.

    "Apparently the Mallyx build makes everyone in the enemy team incompetent, since they're all getting hit by a transfer lol."

    First example that came to mind.

    But I do stand by that I doubt you've played any melee condi build in an outnumbered situation against transfer rev.

    I've never said that most people agree with me, just that you are the only I've seen calling it a gimmick build, which it isn't. You're the one that started the "majority" thing. And you're pretty adamant on condi rev with transfer traits being a "gimmick", instead of the transfer part being a part of the whole condi rev. You're trying to delete a playstyle, just because you don't like it.

    I think it is a gimmick, if you think I claim anyone else agrees with me that's on you, not me.

    I definitively never said the majority agrees with me.

    The fact that you call transfer rev a playstyle is actually very funny, stuff like ghost thief was also a playstyle.

    Corrupt necro is a fitting comparison, since you're stating the transfer part of a condi revenant is the whole build. That would be like saying the corruption part of a necro is his whole build.

    If using only the corrupts and no other skills was viable it would be.

    But thankfully that's not the truth, corrupts are a central part of very close to every necro build there is.

    However the corrupts becoming boon removals definitively wouldn't make make necro useless.(tho it would obviously be a nerf)

    The transfers becoming clears would make transfer rev stop existing.

    Calling transfer rev a gimmick is like calling permeating wrath dh a gimmick build. (which it is I just don't mind it)

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2020

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    You seem extremely invested in defending this I wonder why...

    Anyway, I am not gonna waste anymore breath on you, I doubt it would lead anywhere, except you trying to compare stuff like boons to transfers and suggest things like epidemic to counter a build with high resistance uptime and strong clears, which is kinda funny, but is getting kinda old.

    I want gonna reply but given that you basically admitted to having it as your favorite build I felt compelled to do it once more.

    Easy, because it was a playstyle since the release of rev, more or less. It used to be copy, and I still enjoy that playstyle. You're trying to destroy a playstyle just because you don't know how to counter it.

    The herald part wasn't. Which is the more problematic part.

    Whether I can counter it or not doesn't matter (I know how, it's more a matter of when it's actually possible). What matters is if it's broken and enables poor play patterns. Which it does.

    Yeah, it is getting kinda old, since you seem to be the only one (Edit: 2 now) that actually has a problem with that playstyle. Oh well, I didn't expect anything else from someone that calls this build a "gimmick". So much for having a lot of experience.

    You can't claim to speak for a majority.

    An extremely one dimensional builds is what is generally called a gimmick build, transfer rev fall into this category, normal condi rev doesn't.

    ghost thief
    One shot axe/gs sb
    1 shot scrapper
    Etc

    Anyway if all you're doing is trying to defend your pet gimmick then this really will lead nowhere.

    Never said it was my favourite build, nice try though. It does matter if you can counter it, since barely anyone else seems to have a problem with it.

    Well you do seem to love it, whether there's a build you like more isn't really relevant.

    You try to speak for a majority again.

    That's assuming everyone who has a problem with it writes about it on the forum. That's a pretty bold assumption, espec given how there's at least 1 more person in this thread alone calling it problematic and only you defending it. But either way none of us can know what the rest of the community thinks on this matter.

    You seem to be the only one calling it a gimmick build. You calling it one won't make it a fact.

    Actually you have no who does or doesn't call it one.

    So much for "stopping" with the responding. I don't love it, I'm just against removing a perfectly fine build, because someone isn't able to beat it, and doesn't seem to try adjusting to it.

    It just became more fun when you admitted that you loved it and played it since release and then started backpaddlimg

    I'm not trying to speak for the majority, I'm just saying I've only seen you call it a "gimick" till now. It's like you're trying to talk for the majority by trying to convert a completely fine build to a "gimick" build. So yeah, it still won't make it a fact.

    I actually don't speak for a majority, but the stance "one dimensional builds are gimmicky" is one I am willing to defend tho.

    Transfer rev is extremely one dimensional in the situations where it's good. Is another stance I have no issues defending.

    But I honestly have no clue if the majority agrees, nor do I particularly care.

    Still never said that I love it, just that I like playing it and the concept. It's pretty obvious what you're trying to do here.

    Like/love are just varying levels of the same emotion... They just have to do with intensity if you're making the argument that you like and don't love it that's beyond absurd.

    You clearly care enough about it to get upset and hurl insults when someone dislikes it.

    You're trying to speak for the majority. It's still not a gimicky build. Transfer rev is not one dimensional. That's like saying necro boon corrupt is one dimensional.

    I specifically said I have no idea what the majority opinion is. You keep saying "most people" agree with you.

    Yet you try to claim I try to speak for the majority.

    Corrupt necro isn't tho. The comparison isn't only halting it's like trying to compare transfer rev with apples.

    You trying to say love / favourite / like is the same is pretty absurd tbh.

    Oh do explain the difference then.

    Favorite might not be the same but do explain the difference between loving and liking something.

    Why bother, you seem to think it's the same. I doubt any explanation would change your mind.
    It's bad enough that you already turned a topic about the rev CC into a "remove transfer" thread.

    Which insults? I've only been saying that you seem to be having trouble beating the transfer revs, which seems to be true based on your statements that there are no real counters. You were the one trying to hurl things like unexperienced, "just zergs" etc., so don't try to play the innocent person here.

    "Apparently the Mallyx build makes everyone in the enemy team incompetent, since they're all getting hit by a transfer lol."

    First example that came to mind.

    But I do stand by that I doubt you've played any melee condi build in an outnumbered situation against transfer rev.

    "but for better or worse there's no build that suddenly makes their surroundings competent."
    Yeah, I was referring to this thing you said, because, according to you, getting hit is pretty simple, and every Rev is doing it easily.
    I've already played DH, Power + condi Rev and a Soulbeast against the condi revs with transfers in an outnumbered situation. Most of the time it wasn't the rev, but the other things that did the damage. I was hit by it when I didn't pay attention, but I've yet to see a rev that only spams resistance like you claimed.

    I've never said that most people agree with me, just that you are the only I've seen calling it a gimmick build, which it isn't. You're the one that started the "majority" thing. And you're pretty adamant on condi rev with transfer traits being a "gimmick", instead of the transfer part being a part of the whole condi rev. You're trying to delete a playstyle, just because you don't like it.

    I think it is a gimmick, if you think I claim anyone else agrees with me that's on you, not me.

    I definitively never said the majority agrees with me.

    The fact that you call transfer rev a playstyle is actually very funny, stuff like ghost thief was also a playstyle.

    I wasn't the one claiming that I speak for the majority, so that's on you. I've used the same argument to ridicule yours.
    Yeah, of course it is a playstyle of condi rev. Pretty much everything is a playstyle. The same way you can play any class various ways. Disliking a playstyle doesn't make it a gimmick.

    Corrupt necro is a fitting comparison, since you're stating the transfer part of a condi revenant is the whole build. That would be like saying the corruption part of a necro is his whole build.

    If using only the corrupts and no other skills was viable it would be.

    But thankfully that's not the truth, corrupts are a central part of very close to every necro build there is.

    However the corrupts becoming boon removals definitively wouldn't make make necro useless.(tho it would obviously be a nerf)

    The transfers becoming clears would make transfer rev stop existing.

    Calling transfer rev a gimmick is like calling retal or mercy runes a gimmick.

    "Only using the corrupts" would be like "only using the transfers". So no resistance. No engaging skill, no Glint heal, no pain absorption. Nice, good luck with that.
    It's obvious you want to kill off a playstyle. You're still just focusing on one aspect of condi revs. Copy/transfer has been a core part for PvP condi revs for years, you disliking it still doesn't make it a gimmick.

    Also, if Anet is going to nerf rev, which is highly possible after they've dealt with the current firebrand / core necro situation, I doubt they will remove a complete variant of condi revs, just because you dislike it.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you. Umbasa.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    You seem extremely invested in defending this I wonder why...

    Anyway, I am not gonna waste anymore breath on you, I doubt it would lead anywhere, except you trying to compare stuff like boons to transfers and suggest things like epidemic to counter a build with high resistance uptime and strong clears, which is kinda funny, but is getting kinda old.

    I want gonna reply but given that you basically admitted to having it as your favorite build I felt compelled to do it once more.

    Easy, because it was a playstyle since the release of rev, more or less. It used to be copy, and I still enjoy that playstyle. You're trying to destroy a playstyle just because you don't know how to counter it.

    The herald part wasn't. Which is the more problematic part.

    Whether I can counter it or not doesn't matter (I know how, it's more a matter of when it's actually possible). What matters is if it's broken and enables poor play patterns. Which it does.

    Yeah, it is getting kinda old, since you seem to be the only one (Edit: 2 now) that actually has a problem with that playstyle. Oh well, I didn't expect anything else from someone that calls this build a "gimmick". So much for having a lot of experience.

    You can't claim to speak for a majority.

    An extremely one dimensional builds is what is generally called a gimmick build, transfer rev fall into this category, normal condi rev doesn't.

    ghost thief
    One shot axe/gs sb
    1 shot scrapper
    Etc

    Anyway if all you're doing is trying to defend your pet gimmick then this really will lead nowhere.

    Never said it was my favourite build, nice try though. It does matter if you can counter it, since barely anyone else seems to have a problem with it.

    Well you do seem to love it, whether there's a build you like more isn't really relevant.

    You try to speak for a majority again.

    That's assuming everyone who has a problem with it writes about it on the forum. That's a pretty bold assumption, espec given how there's at least 1 more person in this thread alone calling it problematic and only you defending it. But either way none of us can know what the rest of the community thinks on this matter.

    You seem to be the only one calling it a gimmick build. You calling it one won't make it a fact.

    Actually you have no who does or doesn't call it one.

    So much for "stopping" with the responding. I don't love it, I'm just against removing a perfectly fine build, because someone isn't able to beat it, and doesn't seem to try adjusting to it.

    It just became more fun when you admitted that you loved it and played it since release and then started backpaddlimg

    I'm not trying to speak for the majority, I'm just saying I've only seen you call it a "gimick" till now. It's like you're trying to talk for the majority by trying to convert a completely fine build to a "gimick" build. So yeah, it still won't make it a fact.

    I actually don't speak for a majority, but the stance "one dimensional builds are gimmicky" is one I am willing to defend tho.

    Transfer rev is extremely one dimensional in the situations where it's good. Is another stance I have no issues defending.

    But I honestly have no clue if the majority agrees, nor do I particularly care.

    Still never said that I love it, just that I like playing it and the concept. It's pretty obvious what you're trying to do here.

    Like/love are just varying levels of the same emotion... They just have to do with intensity if you're making the argument that you like and don't love it that's beyond absurd.

    You clearly care enough about it to get upset and hurl insults when someone dislikes it.

    You're trying to speak for the majority. It's still not a gimicky build. Transfer rev is not one dimensional. That's like saying necro boon corrupt is one dimensional.

    I specifically said I have no idea what the majority opinion is. You keep saying "most people" agree with you.

    Yet you try to claim I try to speak for the majority.

    Corrupt necro isn't tho. The comparison isn't only halting it's like trying to compare transfer rev with apples.

    You trying to say love / favourite / like is the same is pretty absurd tbh.

    Oh do explain the difference then.

    Favorite might not be the same but do explain the difference between loving and liking something.

    Why bother, you seem to think it's the same. I doubt any explanation would change your mind.

    Funny.

    It's bad enough that you already turned a topic about the rev CC into a "remove transfer" thread.

    You have as much of a hand as I do in that.

    Which insults? I've only been saying that you seem to be having trouble beating the transfer revs, which seems to be true based on your statements that there are no real counters. You were the one trying to hurl things like unexperienced, "just zergs" etc., so don't try to play the innocent person here.

    "Apparently the Mallyx build makes everyone in the enemy team incompetent, since they're all getting hit by a transfer lol."

    First example that came to mind.

    But I do stand by that I doubt you've played any melee condi build in an outnumbered situation against transfer rev.

    "but for better or worse there's no build that suddenly makes their surroundings competent."

    I didn't direct that at you, I have no idea why you thought so.

    It was a statement about how boons don't suddenly make people do damage, even if they do 100% more dmg then before.

    Yeah, I was referring to this thing you said, because, according to you, getting hit is pretty simple, and every Rev is doing it easily.

    Getting hit is very easy... There's few things easier than getting hit.

    I've already played DH, Power + condi Rev and a Soulbeast against the condi revs with transfers in an outnumbered situation. Most of the time it wasn't the rev, but the other things that did the damage. I was hit by it when I didn't pay attention, but I've yet to see a rev that only spams resistance like you claimed.

    I doubt it. You have a history of lying to me

    I've never said that most people agree with me, just that you are the only I've seen calling it a gimmick build, which it isn't. You're the one that started the "majority" thing. And you're pretty adamant on condi rev with transfer traits being a "gimmick", instead of the transfer part being a part of the whole condi rev. You're trying to delete a playstyle, just because you don't like it.

    I think it is a gimmick, if you think I claim anyone else agrees with me that's on you, not me.

    I definitively never said the majority agrees with me.

    The fact that you call transfer rev a playstyle is actually very funny, stuff like ghost thief was also a playstyle.

    I wasn't the one claiming that I speak for the majority, so that's on you. I've used the same argument to ridicule yours.

    No, this is actually just lies.

    Yeah, of course it is a playstyle. Pretty much everything is a playstyle. The same way you can play any class various ways. Disliking a playstyle doesn't make it a gimmick.

    The fact that the transfer part is its own playstyle does kinda point towards it tho.

    Corrupt necro is a fitting comparison, since you're stating the transfer part of a condi revenant is the whole build. That would be like saying the corruption part of a necro is his whole build.

    If using only the corrupts and no other skills was viable it would be.

    But thankfully that's not the truth, corrupts are a central part of very close to every necro build there is.

    However the corrupts becoming boon removals definitively wouldn't make make necro useless.(tho it would obviously be a nerf)

    The transfers becoming clears would make transfer rev stop existing.

    Calling transfer rev a gimmick is like calling retal or mercy runes a gimmick.

    "Only using the corrupts" would be like "only using the transfers". So no resistance. No engaging skill, no Glint heal, no pain absorption. Nice, good luck with that.

    Only using the transfers to actually contribute anything meaningful to the fight. Obviously you use a few more skills to survive inbetween.

    It's obvious you want to kill off a playstyle. You're still just focusing on one aspect of condi revs. Copy/transfer has been a core part for PvP condi revs for years, you disliking it still doesn't make it a gimmick.

    The herald transfer is rather new. There's viable condi rev builds that don't use it.

    The transfer on swap is one trait, condi rev would be perfectly viable without it.

    Anyway, between your lying and rambling this is it. You managed to tempt me before because it was kinda entertaining, but now ye...

    Anyway good luck

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2020

    Enough. Axe is fine. Transfering conditions without any kind of call is dope, but so also is backstabbing from stealth. Mesmers and Thieves would have the rigth to moan when stealth ends ditched from the game. Embrace papa Nurgle. Spread his word...

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    It's bad enough that you already turned a topic about the rev CC into a "remove transfer" thread.

    You have as much of a hand as I do in that.

    Not really, since you already started hijacking it while discussing with @Josh.4132 , who was smarter than me by just not responding anymore.
    It didn't help that you kept responding even after saying you wouldn't.

    Which insults? I've only been saying that you seem to be having trouble beating the transfer revs, which seems to be true based on your statements that there are no real counters. You were the one trying to hurl things like unexperienced, "just zergs" etc., so don't try to play the innocent person here.

    "Apparently the Mallyx build makes everyone in the enemy team incompetent, since they're all getting hit by a transfer lol."

    First example that came to mind.

    But I do stand by that I doubt you've played any melee condi build in an outnumbered situation against transfer rev.

    "but for better or worse there's no build that suddenly makes their surroundings competent."

    I didn't direct that at you, I have no idea why you thought so.

    It was a statement about how boons don't suddenly make people do damage, even if they do 100% more dmg then before.

    Well, mine was only meant to be a jab at the "builds can't make other people competent".
    But it's the same for the transfer, the possibility of a transfer doesn't make people take damage, if they don't get hit.

    Yeah, I was referring to this thing you said, because, according to you, getting hit is pretty simple, and every Rev is doing it easily.

    Getting hit is very easy... There's few things easier than getting hit.

    I've only ever gotten hit by it when I didn't pay attention to the class icons. I think I deserve getting hit by the transfer if I don't respect the possibility of the enemy having a specific build.

    I've already played DH, Power + condi Rev and a Soulbeast against the condi revs with transfers in an outnumbered situation. Most of the time it wasn't the rev, but the other things that did the damage. I was hit by it when I didn't pay attention, but I've yet to see a rev that only spams resistance like you claimed.

    I doubt it. You have a history of lying to me

    ???
    K then, there's no reason in continuing this then if you call me a liar. Guess only you are allowed to actually have fought against herald condi revs with the transfer trait.

    I've never said that most people agree with me, just that you are the only I've seen calling it a gimmick build, which it isn't. You're the one that started the "majority" thing. And you're pretty adamant on condi rev with transfer traits being a "gimmick", instead of the transfer part being a part of the whole condi rev. You're trying to delete a playstyle, just because you don't like it.

    I think it is a gimmick, if you think I claim anyone else agrees with me that's on you, not me.

    I definitively never said the majority agrees with me.

    The fact that you call transfer rev a playstyle is actually very funny, stuff like ghost thief was also a playstyle.

    I wasn't the one claiming that I speak for the majority, so that's on you. I've used the same argument to ridicule yours.

    No, this is actually just lies.

    I've still never claimed it.

    Yeah, of course it is a playstyle. Pretty much everything is a playstyle. The same way you can play any class various ways. Disliking a playstyle doesn't make it a gimmick.

    The fact that the transfer part is its own playstyle does kinda point towards it tho.

    Yeah, just like Staff ele is a playstyle. Symbolbrand is a playstyle. Condi Rev with transfers is a playstyle. Hammer backline Rev is a playstyle. S/d Thief is a playstyle. Guess they are all just gimmicks in your world.

    Corrupt necro is a fitting comparison, since you're stating the transfer part of a condi revenant is the whole build. That would be like saying the corruption part of a necro is his whole build.

    If using only the corrupts and no other skills was viable it would be.

    But thankfully that's not the truth, corrupts are a central part of very close to every necro build there is.

    However the corrupts becoming boon removals definitively wouldn't make make necro useless.(tho it would obviously be a nerf)

    The transfers becoming clears would make transfer rev stop existing.

    Calling transfer rev a gimmick is like calling retal or mercy runes a gimmick.

    "Only using the corrupts" would be like "only using the transfers". So no resistance. No engaging skill, no Glint heal, no pain absorption. Nice, good luck with that.

    Only using the transfers to actually contribute anything meaningful to the fight. Obviously you use a few more skills to survive inbetween.

    It's obvious you want to kill off a playstyle. You're still just focusing on one aspect of condi revs. Copy/transfer has been a core part for PvP condi revs for years, you disliking it still doesn't make it a gimmick.

    The herald transfer is rather new. There's viable condi rev builds that don't use it.

    The transfer on swap is one trait, condi rev would be perfectly viable without it.

    Anyway, between your lying and rambling this is it. You managed to tempt me before because it was kinda entertaining, but now ye...

    Anyway good luck

    "Rather new" isn't something I'd call a skill that has been in the game for over 1 year.
    Many specs would be viable without a lot of grandmasters, yet they would still completely remove playstyles and build variety.

    Calling me a liar just because I disagree with you calling it a gimmick build is a stretch but w/e.

    Your failed necro analogy about a gimmick build, as well as the "overperforming when outnumbering" balancing reason, made me chuckle.
    So I guess that was something new I've never thought I'd encounter.

    GL with your crusade against condi rev build variety.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you. Umbasa.

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @LaGranse.8652 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Josh.4132 said:
    I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

    @Josh.4132 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    But they are better on rev than on most classes and absurdly good against condi.

    I personally use dwarf, it has overall good skills.

    Between resistance and the clears that rev does on condi rev I feel about as good against condi as I do on most other classes

    The thing is though If you’re using cleasing sigils, plus dwarf for the cleanse, plus the condi transfers, plus the resistance. Then you have dedicated a lot of traits and adjusted your build to counter condis, this is how it should be.

    With the exception of dwarf most of those have very low opportunity costs. Dwarf generally isn't used on the problematic build, it usually uses dragon as that's much better for outnumbering people.

    The cleansing potential isn't problematic, the transfer potential is, espec as you can let the stacks grow while you have resistance so there's no real risk to it

    Cleansing works the same for rev as it does for all other classes. Changing our utilities on legend swap sometimes doesn’t help us especially now since you’re forced to swap legend to use the other legend’s stun break because of the loss of empty vessel

    Rev almost swaps on cooldown, because that's how you use energy the most efficient, making cleansing get relatively close to maximum effectiveness on rev, as opposed to builds that swap a lot less.

    I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

    The condis that the actual rev do are at a good spot rn, the transfers are not, yesterday on multiple occasions I got 40+ stacks of torment and 20+ stacks of burn on me just from transfers, from revs that didn't even use any dmg skills. This is essentially a 1 shot, from a very easy situation to trigger.

    For the rev to transfer that amount of condi they would have to have the conditions on themself first. When the rev pulls conditions from allies onto themself they do get a few seconds of resistance to deal with it short term, however, the opponent can dodge/ be out of range of the transfer and then the rev killed themself instead.

    With 5 targets using absorption once gives you 8 sec of resistance. That's not short, that's close enough to forever.

    It's an extremely low risk high reward playstyle that rewards outnumbering the enemy and creates poor play patterns.

    But that's the case for pretty much everything. Outnumbering the enemy will most of the times have more benefits than being outnumbered. Giving out any boon is more effective if you give it to 5 people than to less than 5.

    Boons increase your effectiveness, if you're a better player, you gain a larger benefit. The problem isn't that there's benefits to outnumbering, ofc there should be (the game would be very weird otherwise and even fighting outnumbered would be boring).

    The problem is when those advantages take the form of a very common and oppressive build that gives a disproportionate advantage in these situations.

    This is a similar issue to excessive mobility/burst/invuln builds, they punish outnumbered situations much more than is reasonable and makes combat more often just come down to numbers.

    Same thing as offensive AoE caps, retaliation and the downed state. They give benefits that are arbitrary.

    I still don't understand your point. If you're a better player, you'll be able to better use the mallyx "pull and spread" mechanic, you gain a larger benefit from correctly pulling the conditions onto you and sharing them efficiently by having proper positioning.

    Except that it's so simple that there's no being good or bad at it.

    Most importantly, in my 3 man group for example, I could swap to transfer rev, but most fights

    1. I never have that amount of stacks, except when fighting transfer revs, meaning it's a build whose main counter is itself, clearly unhealthy.

    2. If they have 2 transfer revs they still just win then. Transfers are just a poor mechanic.

    3. I actually have to use my energy to dmg, they don't because they can afford to do no dmg outside of transfers, which is how most of them play.

    Smaller groups can't afford having someone only do that because they're fewer.

    Invoke torment only has a 240 radius, so there's a "being good" at it.

    1. The counter to the build is to just remove/corrupt his resistance, not standing in his 240 radius, or dodge when you see his legend swap icon pop up, since invoke torment is delayed. He'll just kill himself if you do that.

    That's all well and good in theory, but given that they have

    Dmg to healing from dragon, so if they fail and run out of resistance they pop that and run away
    Cover boons, so removing the resistance often doesn't work
    Generally just stand next to you spamming new resistance
    True nature demon has next to no animation

    The problem is mostly that it turns players who play very poorly (most of the people who started playing transfer rev I've seen before on a variety of other stuff where they were ignorable) into massive threats that are very difficult to deal with.

    Tbh, they don't seem very difficult to deal for me. I just remove their resistance, and they just die. You can even throw cover conditions on them, so that they spread the wrong thing. Or just play a power build, since all they apparently do is spam resistance. You could also just use an epidemic and kill their whole team. (After stripping resistance)

    So your suggestions are

    1. Swap to a different class, that seems like a healthy counterplay....
    2. Epidemic against someone who spams resistance... When the skill is already trash, and from a class that's a joke in small groups
    3. 1 person from the enemy team being "useless" doesn't matter super much when you're 3v10.

    You've clearly never played against it

    I'm just giving actual counters. I've actually played against plenty of them, and they've never been a problem. I've either just corrupted their resistance, removed their resistance or kited them.

    Actually none of those are counters. The fact that you mention epidemic kinda says it all.

    It just looks like you don't want to adapt to new things. Pulsating Pestilence has been in the game for a long time, the same for the Glint spread. And now it is suddenly a problem?

    It was a problem last patch, just less common. The herald transfer is the bigger problem.

    1. If they have 2 transfer revs they'll just steal the conditions from each other, which could lead to one of them spreading nothing at all if he tried to do so at the wrong time. More transfer revs would make it even more complicated to spread at the correct time, since everyone could just pull the conditions to themselves.

    You don't need to time it tho, you just keep repeating the process until it succeeds once, which is all it takes.

    Those 5 revenants spamming resistance are not going to do anything against anyone if they just waste their energy on that. They'll just get killed by any power build / get corrupted by a necro and die.

    1. That's like saying smaller groups can't afford to play pure support builds, since they can afford to do no dmg outside of healing/supporting.

    They can obviously, mostly because healer is a core part of the combat system. They do many things, like heal, boons, clear, cc etc.

    This is more like saying that winds of disenchantment is worse in a 3 man group than in a zerg as 1 person doing "nothing" is a bigger problem there. Or like saying that siege favors the bigger side because you can afford to have 1 person afking on a ballista spamming 1.

    All extremely specialized roles are much weaker in smallscale.

    Yeah, so if "condi spread rev" is a specialized role like the others (which it isn't), why is that one "bad" for the game, but other specialized specs doing their thing aren't?

    Condi transfer rev, big difference

    Most of extremely specialized builds are bad for the game. This is just the one that's relevant to the thread and currently the most common/powerful.

    Stop attributing opinions I don't have. to me

    Yeah, except it is not the most common/powerful build atm. The only one I've seen claiming that is you. Stop attributing your opinion to others. Condi transfer rev is nothing new.

    It's the most common/powerful gimick build atm. It's more common than last patch. I am well aware it's existed since true nature - demon was added.

    When I encountered it twice a week it just didn't really feel like an issue, as annoying as it was, now I encounter it on a daily basis.

    If you have more people, they could share more boons, making them permanent and it would be "oppressive" to the enemy. Having permanent uptime on every boon and having them fully stacked gives a disproportionate advantage against enemies that aren't fully buffed.

    No it doesn't, because with the exception of resistance/retal, they're all just "multipliers" of how powerful you are. They increase your dmg by a percentage, they don't suddenly make you go from doing no dmg to instagibbing people.

    If you die in 10 sec to power dmg without protection, you die in 15 with it.

    If you do very little dmg because you use your skills poorly, then 25 might means you do very little dmg +20-30% (or whatever 25 stacks of might ends up at).

    Same with quickness, fury, regen, swiftness etc

    I don't know, 25 might and quickness can't pretty quickly turn into a "instagib". Fighting someone with full buffs at all times as someone without buffs is pretty horrendous. I still remember fighting multiple boon beasts in the past.

    It might make them do double normal dmg if they have 25 might/fury/quickness, but double nothing is still nothing.

    The threat is most definitively amplified, but it doesn't turn someone who is completely harmless into a 1 shotting thing that shuts you down.

    ???
    Full boons turn anyone into killing machines that shut down anything, if you yourself don't have any boons. A group of 10 full buffed players will easily roll over a non-buffed 5man team in seconds.

    No it doesn't.

    1. If the 5 man group has no boons they're doing something very wrong
    2. Boons are powerful but someone who does no dmg won't instantly start doing dmg just cause they got boons
    3. Boons are a central part of the game, not a tiny niche like condi transfers are
    4. Boons don't randomly 1 shot you with instant skills

    Yes they do. They will just run over you. Full boon people are killing machines.

    Not if they're bad, people don't turn into "killing machines" just cause they have a few boons. If you struggle with this, then that's a personal failing.

    1. Someone that doesn't transfer anything also doesn't do any dmg just because they have conditions on them.

    With the extremely low cooldown on the transfers they can just keep trying til they succeed.

    1. Conditions are a central part of the game, so are any ways that handle them in any way, be that cleanse, transfer or copy.

    Conditions are. Transfers are very rare, they only exist on Rev and Necro. Herald has a total of 2 sources of it, that's hardly a "central part of the game". Changing the transfers to conversions/cleanses wouldn't take away much except a way to cheese fights where you already outnumber the enemy.

    1. Awareness is key, if you don't have it, you should die. It's pretty obvious when a revenant is keeping close to you and spamming resistance.

    Being aware of it doesn't mean that you can stop it. I am always aware that they're gonna do it, that doesn't mean it is something that I can stop.

    1. 10man groups will instantly one shot you, no matter what classes they have.

    3v10s (or similar) for example happen quite often in my experience.

    Obviously this doesn't work if the 10 are competent, but then it doesn't really matter what they play as 3v10 competent people is an impossible fight either way.

    You also completely ignored the thing about having more people = more potential condi cleanses completely disrupting the spread / stacking of conditions.

    Well more people might mean that sometimes you only transfer 20 instead of 40 stacks, that is still very powerful. If the conditions that was intended to be transferred gets cleared, then you just try again, not like you died.

    That bigger groups overall counter condis is a different matter, as that's nowhere near as oppressive. I do think clears should be more personal and less groupwide but completely different matter.

    More people might also mean that instead of 40 or 20 you transfer 0, since it was cleansed. If you need so much setup to transfer anything, the enemies would already be dead with a full buffed team.

    Gimmicky builds that hardcounter "normal" builds and are extremely easy to play are terrible design. The setup is incredibly easy.

    Obviously making everyone around you suddenly competent for them having boons to really do much would be more powerful, but for better or worse there's no build that suddenly makes their surroundings competent.

    It's not a gimmicky build if it's what makes Mallyx Mallyx. It's a perfectly normal build. You not being able to handle it doesn't make it a gimmick.

    If all you think Mallyx is, is herald f2 and one trait (that btw isn't actually connected to mallyx, but usually used in conjunction with) then you seem to have an extremely limited view.

    Next thing you're going to say is Aegis on Guard is gimmicky, or boon corrupts on Necro are gimicky.

    Nope.

    Apparently the Mallyx build makes everyone in the enemy team incompetent, since they're all getting hit by a transfer lol.

    Nice try. Mallyx is "slightly" more than true nature - demon (which is the bigger problem) and permeating pestilence.

    You yourself said "outnumbering" the enemy would make the "condi spread rev" stronger, but it actually doesn't, since it gives him even less opportunities to use his tactic. It actually makes pretty much every other build stronger, that doesn't rely on self spreading.

    More targets also means more people to

    1. Absorb the boon removals
    2. People to pain absorption from
    3. People to demon facet from
    4. People to hide behind as you run away with dragon heal to reset

    If a build makes someone "bad" go from being ignorable to being a massive problem, then clearly something is off with the build.

    Anyway you seem to have very little experience, I really don't mean this in a rude way but something tells me you mostly zerg in which case you can't really see the problem.

    The targets for absorb are capped at 5, there can be multiple people using cleanses that hit you. If you're running the glint heal you're not in mallyx and are therefore not spamming resistance, nor spamming any transfers, nor pulling any condis to you.

    It's a panic button for if people focus the transfer rev, the exact kind that is powerful when outnumbering the enemy. They can btw transfer when swapping from dragon too.

    It seems to be only a problem for you, I haven't actually seen too many complaints apart from yours.
    It looks like you don't really roam a lot, since you seem to have problems with condi revs. Doesn't seem that you have a lot of experience with condi revs. Maybe instead of mindlessly running into a higher enemy count of players, and then crying about loosing to a "simple-minded" build, you should actually check what your own build is capable of.

    I am well aware of what my build can do.

    Which is why I am capable of saying that something is clearly busted if it completely changes the dynamics of fights to such a degree that people you were 3v10ing 2 hours ago have 1(rather mediocre) player from their group swap to transfer rev and suddenly the fight goes from easy to extremely difficult, then that probably hints at something being broken.

    It's also pretty funny that someone with "very little experience" seems to have an easier time combatting this build than someone that claims to know a lot more.

    Ya it's so hard to "counter" things when zerging /sarcasm

    You seem extremely invested in defending this I wonder why...

    Anyway, I am not gonna waste anymore breath on you, I doubt it would lead anywhere, except you trying to compare stuff like boons to transfers and suggest things like epidemic to counter a build with high resistance uptime and strong clears, which is kinda funny, but is getting kinda old.

    Wait, are you saying you were in the group of 3 and was fighting the 10? Or was it the other way around?