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WHY WAS ZHAITAN SO TINY?

Drizzt.1796Drizzt.1796 Member ✭✭

WHY WAS ZHAITAN SO TINY?

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  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lexi.1398 said:
    I'm pretty sure his size is nothing to do with lore and everything to do with mechanically, loading the model into the game. (i think in the game content that was available at the time of victory or death when it was a dungeon, the only thing that could even be compared to that model is shadow behemoth)

    Kralkatorrik sufffers a size decrease just going from ls4 ep5 -> ep6, for example, where one has the huge head model and the other had to have an entire kralkatorrik. In fact, even in ep 6 alone he seems to suffer inconsistency.

    Though, having no other indicator to go off, I wonder how big Zhaitan really is (or was)?

    There is an original model size for him. I think there are some size comparison threads in this sub forum

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  • Drizzt.1796Drizzt.1796 Member ✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    There is an original model size for him. I think there are some size comparison threads in this sub forum

    If so, can you post a link?

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  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 1, 2020

    @Drizzt.1796

    I've copied and pasted this from another thread. You should be able to see the fore section of original Zhaitan in the first link just to the left of current Zhaitan and then a side view of it at the top in the second link

    In summary, he was originally a bit smaller than Kralkatorrik, but not by much

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • SoulGuardian.6203SoulGuardian.6203 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Seeing it from the airship looks pretty huge to me.
    Honestly I don't think other mythical dragons are portrayed much bigger than any of GW2 dragons.
    Actually, a lot of them are smaller.

    Look up on wiki for dragons.
    A lot of them are pictured about the size of a pterosaur.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SoulGuardian.6203 said:
    Seeing it from the airship looks pretty huge to me.
    Honestly I don't think other mythical dragons are portrayed much bigger than any of GW2 dragons.
    Actually, a lot of them are smaller.

    Look up on wiki for dragons.
    A lot of them are pictured about the size of a pterosaur.

    No not often. If anyone likes such sized Dragons, Lucius Shepard’s stories of the Dragon Griaule are well worth a read. That dragon is 6000 feet long

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • SoulGuardian.6203SoulGuardian.6203 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @SoulGuardian.6203 said:
    Seeing it from the airship looks pretty huge to me.
    Honestly I don't think other mythical dragons are portrayed much bigger than any of GW2 dragons.
    Actually, a lot of them are smaller.

    Look up on wiki for dragons.
    A lot of them are pictured about the size of a pterosaur.

    No not often. If anyone likes such sized Dragons, Lucius Shepard’s stories of the Dragon Griaule are well worth a read. That dragon is 6000 feet long

    Ok.
    Allow me to further comment.

    ● Dragon Heart (Draco)
    Perhaps only slightly bigger than the skyscale and defo smaller than any champion.

    ● Reign of Fire
    About the size of GW2 champions.
    Only the male dragon could be close to being the size of Zhaitan.

    ● Lord of the Rings
    I don't remember any being larger than any GW2 champion.

    ● Harry Potter.
    Only Slightly bigger than a skyscale.

    ● Whelsh Dragon
    Much smaller than any gw2 champion.

    ● Chinese Dragon
    Much smaller than mordremoth.

    ● Other European Dragons.
    Only the Romanian Dragon is pictured to be the size of Tetqualt... and I'm being generous.

    ● Ancient Dragon art
    Most around the size of skyscale.

    Sure, you do get the odd monstrosity in books, but they have to dramatise a bit.
    I've read many fantasy myth and legend books.
    Hardly remember any being the size of a skyscraper building or a russian nuclear plant.
    That would make it impossible to defeat.
    They have to keep them in a believable size, in order to get the story to its conclusion.
    Any smart writter isn't going to make the task more difficult to themselves; when they make it so big, and then get to that point and... oh rats, now what?
    Bring on the wall, or release the kraken?

    If Zhaitan was at least twice the size as op is suggesting, no asura, or charr technology would bring that thing down.
    You wouldn’t even chip its claws.
    Its wind force alone would send you flying all the way to cantha like a rocket.

  • Dragons having a singular physical body seem to be optional for them. Mordy was spread out across the jungle. Intertwined with it. He needed avatars to interact/fight with us. The vines, the mouth, the mind, sylvari, etc. "I am everywhere!" remember?

    We can assume the same with Zhaitan. We already knew that Zhaitan was over reliant on minions: Mouth, Eye, etc. Zhaitan seemingly turned turned everything in and around Orr into minions. He had minion sea urchins! That's a lot of himself being spread out. Though the game is really fuzzy about how much of Zhaitan was inside its minions.

    We don't know anything about Jormag's body at the moment except it did split part of itself off to make The Whisper. (My belief is that the western wall of Bjora's Marches is actually Jormag's body) Primordus seems to be a singular being like Kralk was. Selbbub remains a mystery.

    Also if there is some amount of correlation between size and magic contained, Zhaitan did raise an entire continent from the sea bottom. With the Pact starving it of fresh magic as well the Zhaitan we cannon to death could have easily been some sort of base form that only came out because it was desperate.

    tl;dr- It's likely that Zhaitan was small because that was the part of Zhaitan that was left.

    It's also possible Zhaitan used that body simply because they thought it looked cool. Who knows the mind of an Elder Dragon?

    ...

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SoulGuardian.6203 said:
    ● Lord of the Rings
    I don't remember any being larger than any GW2 champion.

    If you go into The Silmarillion, then you got dragons the size of mountains. Which would be Kralkatorrik-size, without taking exact measurements.

    I've read many fantasy myth and legend books.
    Hardly remember any being the size of a skyscraper building or a russian nuclear plant.
    That would make it impossible to defeat.
    They have to keep them in a believable size, in order to get the story to its conclusion.
    Any smart writter isn't going to make the task more difficult to themselves; when they make it so big, and then get to that point and... oh rats, now what?
    Bring on the wall, or release the kraken?

    If Zhaitan was at least twice the size as op is suggesting, no asura, or charr technology would bring that thing down.
    You wouldn’t even chip its claws.
    Its wind force alone would send you flying all the way to cantha like a rocket.

    That's kind of the idea behind the Elder Dragons. They're a single-handed world-ending threat due to their size and strength.

    Which is why I am of the view that the Elder Dragons were confronted and defeated too quickly in the story. They should have been designed as a looming threat at first, to build up their inevitability side before finally a victory is had.

    And alone, no asura or charr technology can bring an Elder Dragon down - even Zhaitan. It was the culmination of many technologies and exploiting a weakness in their power (for Zhaitan, the over-reliance on minions) that allowed the Pact to defeat the three Elder Dragons.

    Also, OP didn't suggest a size, and the statement "twice the size" doesn't really fit the rest of your sentence - do you mean "half the size"?

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  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2, 2020

    Repeating myself, but again: I have always thought that a significant portion of the ED's bodies must actually be magic, or some other Lovecraftian form of "not physical matter as we know it". In which case variability of size is somewhat to be expected, along with other less tangible qualities. For example, if DSD is as big as Kralk originally was said to be, it would be leaving a trail of tsunamis with every movement. It's not. So it's either not moving, or it has the ability to somehow move in a less material manner through the medium around it. Ditto for Primordus, who somehow is able to move an ED sized body (his head alone in LS3E6 implies he is even bigger than Kralk) around beneath Tyria without causing major earthquakes the whole way.

    Speaking of Lovecraft, I recall one of his stories -- "The Shuttered Room" -- in which the size of the monster in the story was controlled by how much it fed. Perhaps the EDs are the same way. When they're fully charged, or overcharged as Kralk was, they're world-rumbling monsters. When they have been deliberately weakened as we did to Zhaitan, their physical manifestation shrinks in proportion to their available power.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2, 2020

    If you pay attention in-game, when the laser hits him, literal dragons (his "tail") seem to fall off of his body. This always suggested that Zhaitan is actually made up of his own minions, which makes sense as a giant flying necromancer.

    The Tendrils of Zhaitan weren't even attached to him in any way, but still were him. Same for the Eyes, the Mouth, etc.

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    If you pay attention in-game, when the laser hits him, literal dragons (his "tail") seem to fall off of his body. This always suggested that Zhaitan is actually made up of his own minions, which makes sense as a giant flying necromancer.

    The Tendrils of Zhaitan weren't even attached to him in any way, but still were him. Same for the Eyes, the Mouth, etc.

    Not really on the tail bit. See this video for example, when the tails get cut off, it's just the two tails. The tails have barely functional wings on them, but they're not independent dragons or the like. Zhaitan looks like he's a dragon made of dragons, but his physiology is too much of one giant dragon. At best, he's a giant dragon that has had smaller dragons grafted onto it.

    As for the Eyes and Mouths - those are not actually pieces of Zhaitan, but are champions that have a strong magical connection to Zhaitan. The Eyes are just kings and queens of Orr, if any piece of them is "literally Zhaitan" then it's just the giant eye they carry, though that eye looks a bit too humanoid to be a dragon's eye, imo.

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    All these squares make a circle.
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  • SoulGuardian.6203SoulGuardian.6203 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    If you pay attention in-game, when the laser hits him, literal dragons (his "tail") seem to fall off of his body. This always suggested that Zhaitan is actually made up of his own minions, which makes sense as a giant flying necromancer.

    Zhaitan's tail looks like it is its own.
    Actually, tails do serve a purpose. It keeps the creature balanced; and used for turning, like a steering wheel.

    The Tendrils of Zhaitan weren't even attached to him in any way, but still were him. Same for the Eyes, the Mouth, etc.

    Not really on the tail bit. See this video for example, when the tails get cut off, it's just the two tails. The tails have barely functional wings on them, but they're not independent dragons or the like. Zhaitan looks like he's a dragon made of dragons, but his physiology is too much of one giant dragon. At best, he's a giant dragon that has had smaller dragons grafted onto it.

    Zhaitan is a zombie dragon, but it is obvious that has other creatures attached to it.
    The serpents in its mouth, its right hand, etc...

    As for the Eyes and Mouths - those are not actually pieces of Zhaitan, but are champions that have a strong magical connection to Zhaitan. The Eyes are just kings and queens of Orr, if any piece of them is "literally Zhaitan" then it's just the giant eye they carry, though that eye looks a bit too humanoid to be a dragon's eye, imo.

    Indeed.
    Those are minions, not part of its phisical body.

  • SoulGuardian.6203SoulGuardian.6203 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @SoulGuardian.6203 said:
    ● Lord of the Rings
    I don't remember any being larger than any GW2 champion.

    If you go into The Silmarillion, then you got dragons the size of mountains. Which would be Kralkatorrik-size, without taking exact measurements.

    And undoubtedly our dear devs will find original and unique ways to defeat each one.

    I've read many fantasy myth and legend books.
    Hardly remember any being the size of a skyscraper building or a russian nuclear plant.
    That would make it impossible to defeat.
    They have to keep them in a believable size, in order to get the story to its conclusion.
    Any smart writter isn't going to make the task more difficult to themselves; when they make it so big, and then get to that point and... oh rats, now what?
    Bring on the wall, or release the kraken?

    If Zhaitan was at least twice the size as op is suggesting, no asura, or charr technology would bring that thing down.
    You wouldn’t even chip its claws.
    Its wind force alone would send you flying all the way to cantha like a rocket.

    That's kind of the idea behind the Elder Dragons. They're a single-handed world-ending threat due to their size and strength.

    Of course.
    But how big does the op wants a dragon to be?
    Where do you want to draw the line?
    It isn't easy to come up with realistic methods to fight and defeat a dragon.
    After all the concept work, you have to put it into practice.
    If Zhaitan was only 1% more intelligent, it could have destroyed the entire airship just by ramming into it, or slap it with that huge hand. But I thought, ok, he was feeling generous, or maybe he's not that smart.
    If the op thinks it's too small, then how do you come up with a way of defeating it if it was even bigger?

    Which is why I am of the view that the Elder Dragons were confronted and defeated too quickly in the story. They should have been designed as a looming threat at first, to build up their inevitability side before finally a victory is had.

    I agree with this.
    Dragon fights should have gone on for a bit longer in the story, probing them, study them, to find their weaknesses.

    And alone, no asura or charr technology can bring an Elder Dragon down - even Zhaitan. It was the culmination of many technologies and exploiting a weakness in their power (for Zhaitan, the over-reliance on minions) that allowed the Pact to defeat the three Elder Dragons.

    Also, OP didn't suggest a size, and the statement "twice the size" doesn't really fit the rest of your sentence - do you mean "half the size"?

    Nope.
    The op is suggesting that Zhaitan is really small.
    Hence my replies. Imo they are not small at all; Kralkatorik is massive, and I reckon Primordious is going to be even bigger... and besides, due to engine limitations, you cannot make them a lot bigger anyways.

    I think the dragon's size are just about right.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SoulGuardian.6203 said:
    Zhaitan is a zombie dragon, but it is obvious that has other creatures attached to it.
    The serpents in its mouth, its right hand, etc...

    I wouldn't say the Tendrils of Zhaitan are "other creatures". Multi-headed creatures are not exactly an unnatural phenomena in of itself.

    @SoulGuardian.6203 said:
    Of course.
    But how big does the op wants a dragon to be?
    Where do you want to draw the line?
    It isn't easy to come up with realistic methods to fight and defeat a dragon.
    After all the concept work, you have to put it into practice.
    If Zhaitan was only 1% more intelligent, it could have destroyed the entire airship just by ramming into it, or slap it with that huge hand. But I thought, ok, he was feeling generous, or maybe he's not that smart.
    If the op thinks it's too small, then how do you come up with a way of defeating it if it was even bigger?

    Nope.
    The op is suggesting that Zhaitan is really small.
    Hence my replies. Imo they are not small at all; Kralkatorik is massive, and I reckon Primordious is going to be even bigger... and besides, due to engine limitations, you cannot make them a lot bigger anyways.

    I think the dragon's size are just about right.

    I think OP was commenting on how small Zhaitan is compared to Kralkatorrik. And it's true, Zhaitan is tiny compared to Kralkatorrik. Even if you double Zhaitan's scale, it's still smaller than Kralkatorrik - and Jormag's tooth by comparison, which matches Kralkatorrik's size more or less. And that's got nothing on Primordus' head from S3.

    OP wasn't saying all ED are small - just Zhaitan - in comparison to other ED. Using Kralkatorrik and Primordus as examples to say the Elder Dragons are good sizes as a disagreement with OP is, technically, not disagreeing with the OP.

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  • SoulGuardian.6203SoulGuardian.6203 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    OP wasn't saying all ED are small - just Zhaitan - in comparison to other ED. Using Kralkatorrik and Primordus as examples to say the Elder Dragons are good sizes as a disagreement with OP is, technically, not disagreeing with the OP.

    Oh ok.
    But this

    WHY WAS ZHAITAN SO TINY?

    Is a little vague if you ask me.
    Still, if you look over when Zhaitan is hanging from the massive pillar, it doesn't look that small.
    But yeah, in comparison to other huge dragons, it is much smaller, I suppose.

    Does the lore say why?

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2, 2020

    @SoulGuardian.6203 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    OP wasn't saying all ED are small - just Zhaitan - in comparison to other ED. Using Kralkatorrik and Primordus as examples to say the Elder Dragons are good sizes as a disagreement with OP is, technically, not disagreeing with the OP.

    Oh ok.
    But this

    WHY WAS ZHAITAN SO TINY?

    Is a little vague if you ask me.
    Still, if you look over when Zhaitan is hanging from the massive pillar, it doesn't look that small.
    But yeah, in comparison to other huge dragons, it is much smaller, I suppose.

    Does the lore say why?

    The only lore explanation that I am aware of - and I am uncertain if it is explicitly mentioned in game at this point to be actual canon - is because over the year long campaign, we starved Zhaitan of considerable magic which may have contributed to a stunted size by the time he eventually re-surfaced from within Arah.

    But the main reason is simply because of game limitations of the time. He was designed to be bigger, but it just didn't work and they didn't have the time to make it work. If he was done today, there is no doubt he'd be larger (and have a better fight)

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • SoulGuardian.6203SoulGuardian.6203 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @SoulGuardian.6203 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    OP wasn't saying all ED are small - just Zhaitan - in comparison to other ED. Using Kralkatorrik and Primordus as examples to say the Elder Dragons are good sizes as a disagreement with OP is, technically, not disagreeing with the OP.

    Oh ok.
    But this

    WHY WAS ZHAITAN SO TINY?

    Is a little vague if you ask me.
    Still, if you look over when Zhaitan is hanging from the massive pillar, it doesn't look that small.
    But yeah, in comparison to other huge dragons, it is much smaller, I suppose.

    Does the lore say why?

    The only lore explanation that I am aware of - and I am uncertain if it is explicitly mentioned in game at this point to be actual canon - is because over the year long campaign, we starved Zhaitan of considerable magic which may have contributed to a stunted size by the time he eventually re-surfaced from within Arah.

    But the main reason is simply because of game limitations of the time. He was designed to be bigger, but it just didn't work and they didn't have the time to make it work. If he was done today, there is no doubt he'd be larger (and have a better fight)

    That makes perfect sense, actually.
    ...and probably trehern purification of orr, contributed significantly to it.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SoulGuardian.6203 said:
    ● Lord of the Rings
    I don't remember any being larger than any GW2 champion.

    There isn't a specified size for Ancalagon the Black, the largest dragon to have existed in this universe but as Konig said he was told to be as big as a mountian.

    However if you read about his death he was defeated in the skies and fell down upon the Thangorodrim.
    The Thangorodrim consisted of 3 gigantic active volcanos, all of which were completely destroyed when Ancalagon crashed on top of them, crushing them into nothing.

    Suffice to say the kind of mass and force he would need to possess to do that would be insane.. so he was likely much bigger than your average mountain and likely dwarfed dragons as big as Kralkatorrik.

    There's no official size statements I can find but I've seen people claim Ancalagon as somewhere around 6500 feet long which is more than twice the hight of the Burj Khalifa, which when empty the building apparently weighs around 500,000 tons

    I don't have the math skills to get technical with it but if Ancalagon can crush 3 volcanos with his own body then I'd have to say he was significantly bigger than anything in the Gw2 universe.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SoulGuardian.6203 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @SoulGuardian.6203 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    OP wasn't saying all ED are small - just Zhaitan - in comparison to other ED. Using Kralkatorrik and Primordus as examples to say the Elder Dragons are good sizes as a disagreement with OP is, technically, not disagreeing with the OP.

    Oh ok.
    But this

    WHY WAS ZHAITAN SO TINY?

    Is a little vague if you ask me.
    Still, if you look over when Zhaitan is hanging from the massive pillar, it doesn't look that small.
    But yeah, in comparison to other huge dragons, it is much smaller, I suppose.

    Does the lore say why?

    The only lore explanation that I am aware of - and I am uncertain if it is explicitly mentioned in game at this point to be actual canon - is because over the year long campaign, we starved Zhaitan of considerable magic which may have contributed to a stunted size by the time he eventually re-surfaced from within Arah.

    But the main reason is simply because of game limitations of the time. He was designed to be bigger, but it just didn't work and they didn't have the time to make it work. If he was done today, there is no doubt he'd be larger (and have a better fight)

    That makes perfect sense, actually.
    ...and probably trehern purification of orr, contributed significantly to it.

    Take into account his tail in the Durmand Priory.
    If you want a better understanding of how big Zhaitan was probably supposed to be then take a good look at that tail.

    Dragon models in game are unreliable as they change based on limitations or perceptions as others have said multiple times here.
    But static objects in the game that come from them (Zhiatans Tail, Jormags Tooth, Kralkatorriks corpse) those can all be made much closer to the size the devs want these Dragons to be so they are far more reliable as a way of judging their real size.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @SoulGuardian.6203 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @SoulGuardian.6203 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    OP wasn't saying all ED are small - just Zhaitan - in comparison to other ED. Using Kralkatorrik and Primordus as examples to say the Elder Dragons are good sizes as a disagreement with OP is, technically, not disagreeing with the OP.

    Oh ok.
    But this

    WHY WAS ZHAITAN SO TINY?

    Is a little vague if you ask me.
    Still, if you look over when Zhaitan is hanging from the massive pillar, it doesn't look that small.
    But yeah, in comparison to other huge dragons, it is much smaller, I suppose.

    Does the lore say why?

    The only lore explanation that I am aware of - and I am uncertain if it is explicitly mentioned in game at this point to be actual canon - is because over the year long campaign, we starved Zhaitan of considerable magic which may have contributed to a stunted size by the time he eventually re-surfaced from within Arah.

    But the main reason is simply because of game limitations of the time. He was designed to be bigger, but it just didn't work and they didn't have the time to make it work. If he was done today, there is no doubt he'd be larger (and have a better fight)

    That makes perfect sense, actually.
    ...and probably trehern purification of orr, contributed significantly to it.

    Take into account his tail in the Durmand Priory.
    If you want a better understanding of how big Zhaitan was probably supposed to be then take a good look at that tail.

    Dragon models in game are unreliable as they change based on limitations or perceptions as others have said multiple times here.
    But static objects in the game that come from them (Zhiatans Tail, Jormags Tooth, Kralkatorriks corpse) those can all be made much closer to the size the devs want these Dragons to be so they are far more reliable as a way of judging their real size.

    That’s super interesting. I’m wondering if we could take that model of the tail and make a better size comparison for Zhaitan’s actual size using the model from the Durmond Priory. I recall a few parts of the tail were carved off.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @SoulGuardian.6203 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @SoulGuardian.6203 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    OP wasn't saying all ED are small - just Zhaitan - in comparison to other ED. Using Kralkatorrik and Primordus as examples to say the Elder Dragons are good sizes as a disagreement with OP is, technically, not disagreeing with the OP.

    Oh ok.
    But this

    WHY WAS ZHAITAN SO TINY?

    Is a little vague if you ask me.
    Still, if you look over when Zhaitan is hanging from the massive pillar, it doesn't look that small.
    But yeah, in comparison to other huge dragons, it is much smaller, I suppose.

    Does the lore say why?

    The only lore explanation that I am aware of - and I am uncertain if it is explicitly mentioned in game at this point to be actual canon - is because over the year long campaign, we starved Zhaitan of considerable magic which may have contributed to a stunted size by the time he eventually re-surfaced from within Arah.

    But the main reason is simply because of game limitations of the time. He was designed to be bigger, but it just didn't work and they didn't have the time to make it work. If he was done today, there is no doubt he'd be larger (and have a better fight)

    That makes perfect sense, actually.
    ...and probably trehern purification of orr, contributed significantly to it.

    Take into account his tail in the Durmand Priory.
    If you want a better understanding of how big Zhaitan was probably supposed to be then take a good look at that tail.

    Dragon models in game are unreliable as they change based on limitations or perceptions as others have said multiple times here.
    But static objects in the game that come from them (Zhiatans Tail, Jormags Tooth, Kralkatorriks corpse) those can all be made much closer to the size the devs want these Dragons to be so they are far more reliable as a way of judging their real size.

    That’s super interesting. I’m wondering if we could take that model of the tail and make a better size comparison for Zhaitan’s actual size using the model from the Durmond Priory. I recall a few parts of the tail were carved off.

    Possibly although that would be a lot of work and takes skills I don't posses lol

    If I were to do it i'd probably take the Priory's library map and shrink it down so it fits to scale with the Priory layout on the world map, then use the tail's size from that and compare it to Zhaitans full model at the same scale so we could get and idea of how big Zhaitan would look on the world map.
    Then simply compare that to how Big Kralks corpse is on Dragonfall.

    If I had to guess off the top of my head i'd say Zhaitan could be maybe about 2/3's of Kralks length if we did that considering Kralk is slightly curved too.. but Zhaitan is also thinner/slimmer and lacks the same bulk and probably wingspan that Kralkatorrik has as well.
    I dunno, that's how i'd go about it anyway.
    Mordremoth is a harder one to compare since we don't really have anything to go on but his Dragon Stand corpse and that is all twisty etc not to mention I don't think we even have a full model of him.. from mouth the tail.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2020

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @SoulGuardian.6203 said:
    Still, if you look over when Zhaitan is hanging from the massive pillar, it doesn't look that small.
    But yeah, in comparison to other huge dragons, it is much smaller, I suppose.

    Does the lore say why?

    The only lore explanation that I am aware of - and I am uncertain if it is explicitly mentioned in game at this point to be actual canon - is because over the year long campaign, we starved Zhaitan of considerable magic which may have contributed to a stunted size by the time he eventually re-surfaced from within Arah.

    But the main reason is simply because of game limitations of the time. He was designed to be bigger, but it just didn't work and they didn't have the time to make it work. If he was done today, there is no doubt he'd be larger (and have a better fight)

    Sadly that's just player speculation. We know that the campaign actively harmed Zhaitan, and that part of his deformed appearance compared to the cinematic art throughout the game was caused by the death of the Eyes and Mouth and the cleansing of temples and Artesian Waters. But that never accounted for his size.

    It's ultimately just player speculation that, since dragon minions get bigger with more magic (see: Megadestroyer, asura PS with Gorr, and the ley line defense events from side story achievements) that the same would go for Elder Dragons, thus explaining Primordus' dramatic size change from GW1 to GW2 (being awake for 200 years and consuming 6 Rata Sum-like cities).

    The theory was more or less established with Primordus' size reveal in S3, but would inversely account for Zhaitan's tiny size.

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Take into account his tail in the Durmand Priory.
    If you want a better understanding of how big Zhaitan was probably supposed to be then take a good look at that tail.

    Dragon models in game are unreliable as they change based on limitations or perceptions as others have said multiple times here.
    But static objects in the game that come from them (Zhiatans Tail, Jormags Tooth, Kralkatorriks corpse) those can all be made much closer to the size the devs want these Dragons to be so they are far more reliable as a way of judging their real size.

    That’s super interesting. I’m wondering if we could take that model of the tail and make a better size comparison for Zhaitan’s actual size using the model from the Durmond Priory. I recall a few parts of the tail were carved off.

    Already compared them, hoping that the tail would be larger. The tail in Durmand Priory is the same size as the tail of Zhaitan's model. Unlike Kralkatorrik, there is no differentiation of size between instances - it's a perfect 1:1 replica of Zhaitan's largest tail that gets cut off in the story.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    If I were to do it i'd probably take the Priory's library map and shrink it down so it fits to scale with the Priory layout on the world map

    Ack! No! The open world is scaled down for gameplay purposes! Dungeons and in-door instances are more likely to be accurate to lore scale. But not in this case, they're the same scale as the Hidden Arcana instance began by making a copy of Lornar's Pass (you can see a portion of it when viewing via Tyria3d). And as mentioned, the tail size scale is 1:1 the same.

    Arah is also seemingly the only dungeon that was built on the same overall scale as the open world, too; if we want to scale instance and open world to the same size, I'd try upscaling the open world to match the scale of CoE or Honor of the Waves, as those dungeons are about twice as big as their open world counterparts, and their scaling makes a bit more sense.

    Mordremoth is a harder one to compare since we don't really have anything to go on but his Dragon Stand corpse and that is all twisty etc not to mention I don't think we even have a full model of him.. from mouth the tail.

    The Mouth of Mordremoth model is straight when pulled from the dat. But as you say, we lack a full model of him. Given the event icons, I imagine he's effectively a super-large version of this guy, and do one day hope to find that model in the dat to see just how large Mordremoth's full body would be by upscaling the mini enormously.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    If I were to do it i'd probably take the Priory's library map and shrink it down so it fits to scale with the Priory layout on the world map

    Ack! No! The open world is scaled down for gameplay purposes! Dungeons and in-door instances are more likely to be accurate to lore scale. But not in this case, they're the same scale as the Hidden Arcana instance began by making a copy of Lornar's Pass (you can see a portion of it when viewing via Tyria3d). And as mentioned, the tail size scale is 1:1 the same.

    I didn't know the scale was the same, It looks significantly larger in the priory than it does on Zhaitan.
    That's a shame then, perhaps someone over at Anet can give us some official size figures someday.. in a Gw2 bestiary or something.. a good few of us have been wanting one of those as far back as Gw1 lol

    Mordremoth is a harder one to compare since we don't really have anything to go on but his Dragon Stand corpse and that is all twisty etc not to mention I don't think we even have a full model of him.. from mouth the tail.

    The Mouth of Mordremoth model is straight when pulled from the dat. But as you say, we lack a full model of him. Given the event icons, I imagine he's effectively a super-large version of this guy, and do one day hope to find that model in the dat to see just how large Mordremoth's full body would be by upscaling the mini enormously.

    Me too man, we've no idea what the rest of him looks like.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    If I were to do it i'd probably take the Priory's library map and shrink it down so it fits to scale with the Priory layout on the world map

    Ack! No! The open world is scaled down for gameplay purposes! Dungeons and in-door instances are more likely to be accurate to lore scale. But not in this case, they're the same scale as the Hidden Arcana instance began by making a copy of Lornar's Pass (you can see a portion of it when viewing via Tyria3d). And as mentioned, the tail size scale is 1:1 the same.

    I didn't know the scale was the same, It looks significantly larger in the priory than it does on Zhaitan.
    That's a shame then, perhaps someone over at Anet can give us some official size figures someday.. in a Gw2 bestiary or something.. a good few of us have been wanting one of those as far back as Gw1 lol

    In fairness, we are considerably closer to it in the Priory than we are in the Arah.

    I know a lot is being made in this thread about how much smaller Zhaitan was compared to other Elder Dragons, but it's worth bearing in mind that, compared to anything reasonably sized, Zhaitan is freaking enormous. When the model was pulled from the .dat, it was estimated to be more than 1600 feet long. That's larger than the Empire State Building, large enough to dwarf the Eiffel Tower. He may not be large enough to build a city on, the way Kralk or Primordus are, but he was still plenty big enough to make humans look like bugs. I actually walked out of Arah with the opposite impression from Konig- all those cutscenes and swooping camera shots made it impossible to tell how large the model really was. It wasn't until I broke out of the map and swam down to where his corpse ends up beneath the playspace that I had any real appreciation for his size.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • All those years soaking on the freezing abyssal plane. Poor guy is bound to suffer some shrinkage.

  • Gryphon.2875Gryphon.2875 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    If I were to do it i'd probably take the Priory's library map and shrink it down so it fits to scale with the Priory layout on the world map

    Ack! No! The open world is scaled down for gameplay purposes! Dungeons and in-door instances are more likely to be accurate to lore scale. But not in this case, they're the same scale as the Hidden Arcana instance began by making a copy of Lornar's Pass (you can see a portion of it when viewing via Tyria3d). And as mentioned, the tail size scale is 1:1 the same.

    I didn't know the scale was the same, It looks significantly larger in the priory than it does on Zhaitan.
    That's a shame then, perhaps someone over at Anet can give us some official size figures someday.. in a Gw2 bestiary or something.. a good few of us have been wanting one of those as far back as Gw1 lol

    In fairness, we are considerably closer to it in the Priory than we are in the Arah.

    I know a lot is being made in this thread about how much smaller Zhaitan was compared to other Elder Dragons, but it's worth bearing in mind that, compared to anything reasonably sized, Zhaitan is freaking enormous. When the model was pulled from the .dat, it was estimated to be more than 1600 feet long. That's larger than the Empire State Building, large enough to dwarf the Eiffel Tower. He may not be large enough to build a city on, the way Kralk or Primordus are, but he was still plenty big enough to make humans look like bugs. I actually walked out of Arah with the opposite impression from Konig- all those cutscenes and swooping camera shots made it impossible to tell how large the model really was. It wasn't until I broke out of the map and swam down to where his corpse ends up beneath the playspace that I had any real appreciation for his size.

    Did you screen-cap that?

  • Malavian.4695Malavian.4695 Member ✭✭✭

    Well...I guess the real question would be were the other dragons as big as they are prior to Zhaitan being killed? Prior to Mordermoth begin killed? Prior to the death of Balthazar? If anything Aurene demonstrated they're size seems comparative to the amount of magic that they have absorbed, not how old they are.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Malavian.4695 said:
    Well...I guess the real question would be were the other dragons as big as they are prior to Zhaitan being killed? Prior to Mordermoth begin killed? Prior to the death of Balthazar? If anything Aurene demonstrated they're size seems comparative to the amount of magic that they have absorbed, not how old they are.

    I would argue the opposite. Aurene demonstrates that their size is comparative to age. Aurene as an Elder Dragon is the same size as Vlast, Glint, and Drakkar - which is smaller than even the Claw of Jormag, Tequatl, Shatterer, and Shadow of the Dragon. Which is in turn much smaller than Zhaitan or Mordremoth. By all rights, Aurene should at least be the size of Zhaitan given that she absorbed the lion share of Kralkatorrik's magic (this remains true even if we exclude the magic Kralk absorbed from Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Balthazar).

    Though I would also argue that magical amounts do hold a factor, given Aurene's sudden boosts in size when absorbing a high concentration of magic, just that age is not irrelevant.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Malavian.4695Malavian.4695 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I would argue the opposite. Aurene demonstrates that their size is comparative to age. Aurene as an Elder Dragon is the same size as Vlast, Glint, and Drakkar - which is smaller than even the Claw of Jormag, Tequatl, Shatterer, and Shadow of the Dragon. Which is in turn much smaller than Zhaitan or Mordremoth. By all rights, Aurene should at least be the size of Zhaitan given that she absorbed the lion share of Kralkatorrik's magic (this remains true even if we exclude the magic Kralk absorbed from Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Balthazar).

    Zhaitan was supposed to awaken as one of the first dragons because he was 2nd powerful to Primordus. Primordus was delayed due tot he events of Eye of the North. If we remember the sleeping Primordus from the Eye of the North end scene, he was not as massive as the one displayed in Season 3. As for age, I don't see how that could be relevant because technically Aurene is what...two yrs old at most?

  • Malavian.4695Malavian.4695 Member ✭✭✭

    Thinking a little more on that...there was a difference in expenditure of magic between the different dragons as well. Maybe Zhaitan was smaller because he technically was extending himself beyond just a primary body. He had Eyes of Zhaitan, Multiple dragons flying around that looked like Tequatl. He had a central core body, but his power was more decentralized.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Malavian.4695 said:
    Zhaitan was supposed to awaken as one of the first dragons because he was 2nd powerful to Primordus. Primordus was delayed due tot he events of Eye of the North. If we remember the sleeping Primordus from the Eye of the North end scene, he was not as massive as the one displayed in Season 3. As for age, I don't see how that could be relevant because technically Aurene is what...two yrs old at most?

    There's absolutely nothing that indicates a clear power difference between the Elder Dragons before they began taking power from dead Elder Dragons. Zhaitan was also the fourth Elder Dragon to awaken - the order being Primordus (delayed), deep sea dragon, Jormag, Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik (delayed), and Mordremoth).

    If age wasn't at all relevant, then by the end of PoF, she should have been the size of Vlast and Glint if not larger - she had absorbed two huge spikes of magic in that 2 year span (she's 3 nearing on 4 now btw), whereas Vlast and Glint had been slowly gathering magic for centuries. Yet in PoF/S4 she's smaller than Vlast and Glint. In of itself it's weird that Vlast and Glint were the same size, in fact, given that Glint had been absorbing magic for 3,000 years (even if the first couple millennia were magic-deprived). But more importantly, Aurene as an Elder Dragon should be vastly larger than Vlast if their size is solely based on magical consumption - but theyr'e the same size.

    Maybe Zhaitan was smaller because he technically was extending himself beyond just a primary body. He had Eyes of Zhaitan, Multiple dragons flying around that looked like Tequatl. He had a central core body, but his power was more decentralized.

    Those risen dragons aren't part of Zhaitan's body - just the Eyes and Mouths. Tequatl and the other risen dragons are akin to the Claws of Jormag, of which we see many (though not as many as the risen dragons) throughout the northern and far shiverpeaks.

    All these squares make a circle.
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    All these squares make a circle.

  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Lack of time and technology. Lore and fan theories don't work for me here.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gryphon.2875 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    If I were to do it i'd probably take the Priory's library map and shrink it down so it fits to scale with the Priory layout on the world map

    Ack! No! The open world is scaled down for gameplay purposes! Dungeons and in-door instances are more likely to be accurate to lore scale. But not in this case, they're the same scale as the Hidden Arcana instance began by making a copy of Lornar's Pass (you can see a portion of it when viewing via Tyria3d). And as mentioned, the tail size scale is 1:1 the same.

    I didn't know the scale was the same, It looks significantly larger in the priory than it does on Zhaitan.
    That's a shame then, perhaps someone over at Anet can give us some official size figures someday.. in a Gw2 bestiary or something.. a good few of us have been wanting one of those as far back as Gw1 lol

    In fairness, we are considerably closer to it in the Priory than we are in the Arah.

    I know a lot is being made in this thread about how much smaller Zhaitan was compared to other Elder Dragons, but it's worth bearing in mind that, compared to anything reasonably sized, Zhaitan is freaking enormous. When the model was pulled from the .dat, it was estimated to be more than 1600 feet long. That's larger than the Empire State Building, large enough to dwarf the Eiffel Tower. He may not be large enough to build a city on, the way Kralk or Primordus are, but he was still plenty big enough to make humans look like bugs. I actually walked out of Arah with the opposite impression from Konig- all those cutscenes and swooping camera shots made it impossible to tell how large the model really was. It wasn't until I broke out of the map and swam down to where his corpse ends up beneath the playspace that I had any real appreciation for his size.

    Did you screen-cap that?

    I did, but if I still have them, they're trapped inside a functionally dead PC... unless, possibly, I bothered to back them up. I'll check this weekend if I find the time.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Drizzt.1796Drizzt.1796 Member ✭✭

    PLEASE end this thread! Its been going on too long!

    But thanks for helping me understand!!!

    Renegade Rework - A fan-made project including artwork and Wiki

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72196/become-renegade-the-greatsword-wielding-revenant#latest <<<----

    Awesome thread, made by DonArkanio.6419 , a revenant rework.

    Make sure to compliment him for all his hard work!!!

  • Gryphon.2875Gryphon.2875 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Gryphon.2875 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    If I were to do it i'd probably take the Priory's library map and shrink it down so it fits to scale with the Priory layout on the world map

    Ack! No! The open world is scaled down for gameplay purposes! Dungeons and in-door instances are more likely to be accurate to lore scale. But not in this case, they're the same scale as the Hidden Arcana instance began by making a copy of Lornar's Pass (you can see a portion of it when viewing via Tyria3d). And as mentioned, the tail size scale is 1:1 the same.

    I didn't know the scale was the same, It looks significantly larger in the priory than it does on Zhaitan.
    That's a shame then, perhaps someone over at Anet can give us some official size figures someday.. in a Gw2 bestiary or something.. a good few of us have been wanting one of those as far back as Gw1 lol

    In fairness, we are considerably closer to it in the Priory than we are in the Arah.

    I know a lot is being made in this thread about how much smaller Zhaitan was compared to other Elder Dragons, but it's worth bearing in mind that, compared to anything reasonably sized, Zhaitan is freaking enormous. When the model was pulled from the .dat, it was estimated to be more than 1600 feet long. That's larger than the Empire State Building, large enough to dwarf the Eiffel Tower. He may not be large enough to build a city on, the way Kralk or Primordus are, but he was still plenty big enough to make humans look like bugs. I actually walked out of Arah with the opposite impression from Konig- all those cutscenes and swooping camera shots made it impossible to tell how large the model really was. It wasn't until I broke out of the map and swam down to where his corpse ends up beneath the playspace that I had any real appreciation for his size.

    Did you screen-cap that?

    I did, but if I still have them, they're trapped inside a functionally dead PC... unless, possibly, I bothered to back them up. I'll check this weekend if I find the time.

    Thanks. Would love to see that.