QoL Buff and Nerf Wishlist/Request for Revenant Skills/Traits, but for the new patch. — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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QoL Buff and Nerf Wishlist/Request for Revenant Skills/Traits, but for the new patch.

Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited March 23, 2020 in Revenant

As title says, after experiencing every niches and corners of Revenant I figured that I'd put out what I think needs to be changed from mostly a PvP perspective, but also PvE. This is a repost of my old template and I still think Anet has some way to go fixing Revenant.

Weapons

Main-Hand Sword

All there's to say.. Chilling Isolation is amazing! It makes up for a great alternative burst when using shield.

Off-Hand Sword

Still the same thoughts, it's got weird unnecessary changes that definitely nerfed core Revenant as a whole and has made Staff a must have alternative.

  • Duelist Preparation needs to be brought back into the mix ahead of Shackling Waves and work like Counterattack from Ranger Greatsword, putting the simple gameplay and damage down significantly, providing some sustain without losing any of that damage. Taking out the "Must rush and jump only on everyone at once." type of mentality, we have Deathstrike for that.
  • Deathstrike needs to be slowed down slightly and have it's effects rolled back. This drastically nerfed Jalis stance because the conditions were used to cover Weakness, now Power Shiro/Dwarf is quite inferior to play compared Condition Mallyx/Jalis. Chill and Slow were also there to make the final hit possible and less risky, now it's clunky and still missing sometime but the fast skill also often desync which makes evading it stupidly clunky as the old one usually had the player moving to update with the first hit. Also it's common that Deathstrike is used with Phase Traversal, Quickness compensates for how usually slow the skill was compared to the past, which now is really stupid fast.

Mace

Same thoughts, it feels just right, but could use one simple change.

  • Searing Fissure animation needs to be fixed, it's annoyingly uneven.
  • Echoing Eruption needs to be affected by Quickness, it's one of the main damage output that cannot be helped which is already quite telegraphed. Leaps like Weaver and Holosmith already can be sped up, so this is no limitation whatsoever.

Axe

Speed up the animation of Temporal Rift by a small amount, it does nothing but CC and is super easy to evade

Staff

Speed up the wind up of Surge of the Mists by about half or less, it's too slow and basically just useful as a kitting tool right now.

Hammer

Fix CoR already, it's been months. Still broken with no sound. If I might add, rework the 2nd skill entirely as a skill like Engineer Blunderbuss, the current one makes it a clunky/nonviable weapon in most PvP maps due to terrain complexity.

Traits

Invocation

Same thoughts.

  • Incensed Response needed to be nerfed, I agree with Anet's reasoning, but not like this. Roll back the nerf and either reduce the Might Duration or the amount of Might gained. Do it for WvW as well, not just PvP, the synergy is broken on Herald, that's it. Otherwise it's useless.
  • Charged Mists requirements are too high and makes it purely a PvE trait until the required energy is increased to 25, it's already hard enough to keep the energy low while being effective and stunbreaking at the same time, traits should work together not against each other. If you really want to make it casual, have no requirement at all and just grant 25 energy on legend swap in combat, players are giving up on instant invoking effects/critical chance for this, it wouldn't break balance at all.
  • Roiling Mists was nerfed along many things, including Main-Hand Sword and Incensed Response which was too much, it hit Revenant greatly and not so much for Herald nor Renegade. It needs to be brought back the way it was.

Devastation

Good rework, but some weak traits.

  • Increase Battle Scars healing at around the level of Facet of Nature—Assassin, they are far from too strong as they are limited in their amount.

Corruption

Invoke Torment is a good way to work with transfers, but you've messed up a few places.

  • Replenishing Despair conditions do insignificant amount of damage when self torment is transferred compared the old Maniacal Persistence, fix that.
  • Permeating Pestilence is weak at 2 conditions transferred, you didn't even touch Necromancer shroud yet nerf the instant aspect of transfers on Revenant while also reducing the conditions to the point where it's not even functioning properly sometimes. 2 is too low and as it's already RNG enough to transfer the conditions that matter, this needs to be 3 given it's small radius, delay and tell as it's not longer instant casted like before, trying to hit multiple targets is also pretty hard.

Retribution

Mostly the same thoughts.

  • Close Quarters is a very low bonus to trade off Planar Protection, considering it destroy projectiles at range, it applies Weakness at close. Make the trait damage reduction distance based and up to 20% from the furthest which would be more reasonable given that there's nothing to gain from being "Close Quarters" with it.
  • Spiritual Reckoning ICD is high for how short the boon is. Increasing the duration to 5 seconds would fix that. Removing the ICD would make it spammable with certain legends which is bad, so please address the boon duration or reduce the ICD to 5 seconds.
  • Eye for an Eye ICD too high, asking for Jalis players to not get stunned every so often with all the boon removal, 25 seconds would be more reasonable, the trait really has to be godly to justify not taking Dwarven Battle Training, this trait should grant 3 seconds of Retaliation instead of 5 seconds of Might, Revenants are easy to lock down and punishing those constant focuses with stunbreak would make it a viable option.
  • Dwarven Battle Training nerf is too big if you're taking away Expertise, restore this to 4 seconds at least, 3 seconds is low and doesn't punish as much for people eating your CC's that make them unable to do anything for a while regardless.
  • Versed in Stone the toughness benefit in PvP is too low, should be at least as high as Armored Attack like on Warrior.

Salvation

This traitline is actually good and fairly varied, the only problem is orbs. Please Anet, either rework the traits based on orbs altogether or make the orbs track players. There's too much visual clutter or RNG to make it viable. Fragments are already random enough.

Skills / Stances

Ancient Echo

Still a good addition that contributes in keeping Revenant relevant in the game, it wouldn't be the same without it since it was extremely hard to play otherwise. There's just this one bug with Versed in Stone not counting towards Rite of the Great Dwarf from Ancient Echo which really needs to be fixed, considering how often it's used. For both Shiro and Ventari it would be very useful to work accordingly.

Legendary Assassin

Same thoughts.

Legendary Centaur

Same thoughts.

  • Project Tranquility should "tether" the Tablet and "follow" the player until Ventari's Will is used where manual control is took until Energy Expulsion is used to reset it back to tether. This is an important change that needs to be looked into with how clunky it is to handle, have the players will lose the benefits of using anything that relates to a healing skill such as Blindness from Blinding Truths or runes that provide extra benefits from using it often, it balances the playstyle out.
  • Purifying Essence absolutely needs to be a stunbreak, make it happen so that the legend can finally step out of the Glint/Jalis combo's, it sucks to be so limited. There is too much CC in the game to stay that one legend should not have one. Even if the Tablet can be handled while stunned among other things, the pressure is too great, Ventari bonuses are all outgoing, there's nothing to recover from a stunlock the moment a whole entire zerg decides to focus the user entering the stance. While at it, an additional condition for a total of 4 and 30 energy to unify around the other stunbreak skills.

Legendary Demon

I've warned about the power creep and it's already a problem, aside some of the same ideas.

  • Empowering Misery needs to have Resistance as baseline without trait, it's such a ridiculous idea to ask players having many conditions on them to quickly lose everything again. Demonic Defiance ICD is also separate from the healing skill itself which means in the end there's still 4 seconds of Resistance to be had regardless whether it grants Resistance or not after using another Demon skill, fix it so it's actually all uniform per skill plus the heal skill baseline Resistance.
  • Call to Anguish needs to cost 35 and have a higher cooldown of 5 seconds comparatively to Phase Traversal, this is literally the only reason why you have so many condition revenants now and people think it's OP.

Legendary Dwarf

Same thoughts.

Elite Specializations

Herald

Shield

Same thoughts, good asset to any bruiser/sustain builds, but both skills could use some work.

  • Envoy of Exuberance is.. Alright, but please make the hitbox bigger, move faster as well as fixing Aegis blocking the skill.. Also the sending/returning energy to grant Protection consistently from to teammates/users, it has potent uses but those needs to be polished.
  • Crystal Hybernation with such a big root might as well maybe make blocking 4 seconds, just like the same amount of pulses (Not sure on that one). Those pulses should also affect allies in a radius of 360, make Herald be more supportive oriented so that most can finally stop complaining at how selfish of a skill it is even though there's many like it in the game.

Traits

Herald has only two trait that really is lacking and with the nerfs, those really need to get addressed.

All of the effects are rounded up as well.

  • Core Value needs to do twice of what it already does. Every benefits from it are not good enough to pick over Rising Momentum. Edit: This could actually be overpowered and over doing it because True Nature affects multiple targets. Instead of just affecting True Nature alone, it should also improve the Facet of Nature passive by 50% their effects.
  1. Facet of Nature—Assassin Life Steal Damage: 80 (0.0666) and Life Steal Healing: 128 (0.0333), given this would make it also more effective for teammates since it uses the affected player's power/healing power and not the Herald's.
  2. Facet of Nature—Centaur heals twice it's current value every 3 seconds.
  3. Facet of Nature—Demon transfers 2 conditions every 3 seconds.
  4. Facet of Nature—Dwarf gives 15% damage reduction.
  5. Facet of Nature—Dragon gives +30% boon duration.
  • Elevated Compassion should heal up to 5 (Capped) times the amount based on the number of boons granted just like Resilient Spirit except to teammates only.

Legendary Dragon

Same thoughts. Most of those skills are quite fine tuned aside a few things.

  • True Nature is the best change Herald has seen in it's entire existence. Also reduce the upkeep to 2 across all game modes, 3 is too much to make the player want to keep it's passive for a while. All True Nature skills that are offensive (Demon and Assassin) should have a radius of 360, all passives are otherwise untouched at 600 Radius. Demon should also be possible to evade, it's too strong otherwise.
  • Infuse Light now too strong given the new changes, it's base heal needs an increase of about 1.5k while the new value of 2 seconds duration will turn the skill into a use of proper timing which is what Revenant has mostly been about since the start, except this one power crept a lot because of it's ease of use. There's another legend to use as well afterwards with many sustain alternatives.
  • Gaze of Darkness changes are great, even though it was bugged for a while. The radius increase is quite welcomed but if the Revealed cannot be applied unless the foe is in stealth, I and most people would agree that they'd prefer the old one because prevention does a lot more than just hoping to time it right as Stealth is used, people can evade it. With the new patch, the cooldown increase is absurd and needs to be restored at 20 seconds, having a stunbreak STILL on cooldown after 2 legend swaps is not good, it tips the favor in wanting to camp the other legend longer.
  • Chaotic Release is an odd one, does it really deserve to not have 20 seconds cooldown where we have a CC on all legends that have a much lower cooldown that shares similar if not more reliable features as they are much less telling than this skill? Pretty sure people were just thrown off by the fact it was quicker and not used often when it was buffed.

Renegade

Shortbow

Good on paper, but EXTREMELY clunky in action..

  • Bloodbane Path increase the hitbox and velocity of the projectiles so that they actually hit, even when targets are standing still it misses.
  • Sevenshot needs to be a beautiful circle of arrow that projects in a concentrated dot in front of the player rather than forcing the player to have the perfect distance, timing and accuracy to land full damage while it's cool looking but a worthless design at any range that doesn't respect it.
  • Spiritcrush directional requirement is terrible, there shouldn't be a need for line of sight when arrows are shot strategically in a portal regardless. Bloodbane Path doesn't so why this one?
  • Scorchrazor ruins the flow with it's ¾ cast time, very often it goes on full cooldown even though the skill didn't even cast as the user try to kite. Make it uniform with the rest of it's skills with ½ cast time or fix the influence of movement on it, the projectile still take time to reach and is REALLY easy to evade.

Traits

All of those are really strong, it's hard to find any flaws into them. Maybe I haven't played enough Renegade but for the most part trying to come up with anything that doesn't seem overpowered to the specialization is really hard. Should one trait be changed to grant the summons stability by default so they don't get interrupted right away and offer some pressure.

Legendary Renegade

Same for these, there's little to come up with without tipping the balance upside down.

  • Citadel Bombardment cooldown is the only one that stands out, why is it even so high in PvP/WvW? Should be the same that PvE has, the ordnance is pretty RNG and players have a rather small hitbox.**

Closure

And that's it, I wanted to come up with this right before the patch and so I did with all the time I had to try out mostly everything. See if anything gets predicted or eventually tweaked to in the future. Coming from someone who plays other than Herald in PvP which is a lot of fun. Don't let people tell you it anything else isn't viable. It's quite powerful if you play as an actual Revenant and not the latter like other professions. Adapt to the playstyle, Anet has really put some thought into it and it's quite amazing all the things that can be pulled off despite being locked on specific set of skills.

Comments

  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I generally agree with the direction of changes; Planar Protection and Close Quarters fighting in the same trait branch. But I feel like there is too many buffs that are unneccesary. For example Malyx, Temporal Rift speed up - I don't believe these underperform in any way right now.

    Shiro's disgustingly high Energy costs and overall skillset need to be addressed. This entire Legend was butchered and for me, the utilities are just uninteresting and unefficient at what they do.

    Duelist Preperations before Shackling Waves is needed, and gaining access to block on Off-hand could allow Dearhstrike to be much more telegraphed and slower. But, I'd still rework Dearhstrike as it's a poor copy-paste of Frigid Blitz without Chill now.

    Herald's Crystal Hibernation and AoE healing pulses - I'm all for that and I've been talking about this for a year now. This is one of the best ways to make Shield viable.

    Don't increase Energy costs, decrease Functionality. This is the kind of stuff I hate about any Revenant nerfs. Instead of taking about what the Utility does, instead its cost is increased, leaving us with something like Shiro.

    Shiro's whole utility set costs **130 Energy (+ Upkeep, + Weapons) - this is nuts.
    Nerf the overpowered functionality of skills, don't up the cost.
    Don't increase CtA's cost. Nerf range, or damage, or Chill.

    CoR should be completely reworked and maybe apply weakness to get on pair with Retribution and Jalis' theme. It's silly that only the Mace covers this Condition while having no use out of it.

    Renegade. I already gave up on this one. I feel like we're going to nowhere with this Legend. It's the most unfun, clunky, uninteresting and uncreative E-Spec in the game for me. And it seems like it's going to stay that way, because it has good numbers. But honestly: Herald is a support E-Spec with a completely wasted weapon. Renegade is also a support E-Spec while still dealing heavy damage. Both Traitlines/ Legends give you Protection and Regeneration. Both give you Might. I feel like Herald could get a nice buff and Renegade get a complete rework to not be any kind of support.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:
    I generally agree with the direction of changes; Planar Protection and Close Quarters fighting in the same trait branch. But I feel like there is too many buffs that are unneccesary. For example Malyx, Temporal Rift speed up - I don't believe these underperform in any way right now.

    Shiro's disgustingly high Energy costs and overall skillset need to be addressed. This entire Legend was butchered and for me, the utilities are just uninteresting and unefficient at what they do.

    Duelist Preperations before Shackling Waves is needed, and gaining access to block on Off-hand could allow Dearhstrike to be much more telegraphed and slower. But, I'd still rework Dearhstrike as it's a poor copy-paste of Frigid Blitz without Chill now.

    Herald's Crystal Hibernation and AoE healing pulses - I'm all for that and I've been talking about this for a year now. This is one of the best ways to make Shield viable.

    Don't increase Energy costs, decrease Functionality. This is the kind of stuff I hate about any Revenant nerfs. Instead of taking about what the Utility does, instead its cost is increased, leaving us with something like Shiro.

    Shiro's whole utility set costs **130 Energy (+ Upkeep, + Weapons) - this is nuts.
    Nerf the overpowered functionality of skills, don't up the cost.
    Don't increase CtA's cost. Nerf range, or damage, or Chill.

    CoR should be completely reworked and maybe apply weakness to get on pair with Retribution and Jalis' theme. It's silly that only the Mace covers this Condition while having no use out of it.

    Renegade. I already gave up on this one. I feel like we're going to nowhere with this Legend. It's the most unfun, clunky, uninteresting and uncreative E-Spec in the game for me. And it seems like it's going to stay that way, because it has good numbers. But honestly: Herald is a support E-Spec with a completely wasted weapon. Renegade is also a support E-Spec while still dealing heavy damage. Both Traitlines/ Legends give you Protection and Regeneration. Both give you Might. I feel like Herald could get a nice buff and Renegade get a complete rework to not be any kind of support.

    CtA change of radius is a bad idea, have you seen how big is 240? 360 sounds big, but it's pretty much just a node sized AoE. Reducing the size wouldn't address the fact that it's too much CC still for anybody still, spam.

    Shiro changes are healthy for anyone in the game, saying that energy cost is too high could be said the same for Jalis given the exposure it has compared Shiro.. But it isn't really. At best, Jade Winds down to 40 but otherwise, Riposting Shadows has been in dire need of it for a while and it shows since Warrior got the same treatment with their evades, these two still fight the same. To stunbreak over and over, was annoying. You can only cut spam by cutting energy, sadly.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Agree with everything on Shortbow.
    Sevenshot is utterly garbage to use, Bloodbane Path misses once in 3 casts, Spirit Crush can only be cast if it is infront of yu lmao.

    Rev Sword 3 still bugs out on many occasions.

    Does any other class have weapon skills that just cancels itself and wastes energy and cooldown? Lol.

    At this point I rather they just rework Unrelenting assault for functionality's sake rather than for aesthetics.
    Sword 3 looks cool, is pretty nice as an Evade + Attack, but cancelling itself very often or just bugging and putting itself in cooldown on a very frequent basis just makes it feel bad to use.

    Also Sword 3's windup is atrocious.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • zaswer.5246zaswer.5246 Member ✭✭

    Ok i have a couple ideas of what could be done , theyre moatly for pve but i think some could be good for pvp too.
    1 please mix together phase traversal and riptosing shadow from shiro skill bar , both skills have 30 energy cost and are just movement skills with some extras , so my idea is mix them the same way the ranger had monarch leap and hornet sting together and make that skill 35 energy cost, we have a trait that takes out condis from us with movement skills so no need for it to have a condi cleanse for inmob and criple and the unblocable could still be there and it wouldnt be unfair .
    2 suposing we now have a free slot in shiro skills please give us an actual dmg skill like sword of justice from guardian (i dont mean the same skill but a skill made for direct dmg like it) because we already have a lot of dmg modifiers on revenant.
    3 sword 2 is now better than it was before in my opinion (or at least looks better) but in pve at least i think the AA dmg could be a bit higher , also theres sword 3 , in pvp im not sure how good it is but for pve i would make a change and that is increasing its dmg when hitting the same target more than once , that is because its not a fast skill and it also has evade so making it faster would be a problem but in most of the important pve fights (bosses) using sw3 means a lot of dps loss.
    4 looking at traits now, rising tide from invocation line could get from 7 to 9% and it wouldnt be a problem , also i have thought a couple of times that assasins presence could be moved to invocation line and changed to give a different buff in each legend (shiro power mallinx condi dmg ventary healing power jalis vitality glint concentration and kalla could give feroc and expertice either could be 150 or mixed 75 and 75 ) i think it could be a great buff in all game modes but also its something that could make sense well done and the last thing has to do with energy management and charged mists , in my opinion the energy drain from some skills is too high ,we have the upkeeps that give a continous benefit at the cost of losing energy while its active and the energy drain varies from skills of -6 to others of -8 and im not counting glint because they are diferent than other upkeeps , im fine with the upkeeps so far , maybe soulcleave could be -7 instead of -8 or give a bit more dmg? , but the problem is revenant strongest skills are the upkeeps without a doubt i think (at least in pve) so you alwais need to have the upkeeps up ,now usually legends start with 50 energy and traited with charged mist it goes up to 75 if you swap under 10, it means that for example being in shiro you have to use sw2,4 and 5 to drop 25 energy and then use the upkeep to drop the rest as all of your skills spend +30energy , in kalla the citadel (f3 i think it is?) spends 35 energy and the skills themself spend 20-30 energy with an upkeep of -8 , so to sum up in some legends you have to stay too much time doing AA to spend energy till you reach that 10% while in others you have too much things to spend energy and so you loose the chance , i think charged mists should be changed so it makes you get 75 energy allwais you change legend and 100 when you are under 10% so you can spend that energy in the legend you need it and if you cant spend it you dont get that huge penalty (also having a new skill in shiro would help draining energy if needed)
    5 And last i think someone must have thought about it before but , why kalla shortbow trait only increases bleed dmg ? I mean the whole kalla legend is hybrid as kallas fervor increases both condi and ferocity , please make shortbow so it works similar to trident or make it more a hybrid weapon so we can have a weapon swap for condi (and hamer doesnt count because it does almost no dmg being as slow and bugged as it is) also theres that trait named lasting legacy that increases kallas fervor effects , could you increase a bit the ferocity either base fervor or the trait gives , because even if citadel is more rng in small enemies it is better to take vindication than legacies so a little buff on that feroc would even the traits .
    Again im talking mostly looking at pve and more about power dmg builds than condi but i think some changes might be interesting for pvp and wvw too . Also if someone has other ideas of the changes i proposed you can tell me.

  • edited March 2, 2020

    Gonna comment primarily on the condi rev aspects in WvW as those are the ones I am most familiar with and care most about.

    @Shao.7236 said:
    As title says, after experiencing every niches and corners of Revenant I figured that I'd put out what I think needs to be changed from mostly a PvP perspective, but also PvE. This is a repost of my old template and I still think Anet has some way to go fixing Revenant.

    Weapons

    Main-Hand Sword

    Even after sword 2 changes, still great.

    Off-Hand Sword

    Still the same thoughts, it's got weird unnecessary changes that definitely nerfed core Revenant as a whole and has made Staff a must have alternative.

    • Duelist Preparation needs to be brought back into the mix ahead of Shackling Waves and work like Counterattack from Ranger Greatsword, putting the simple gameplay and damage down significantly, providing some sustain without losing any of that damage. Taking out the "Must rush and jump only on everyone at once." type of mentality, we have Deathstrike for that.
    • Deathstrike needs to be slowed down slightly and have it's effects rolled back. This drastically nerfed Jalis stance because the conditions were used to cover Weakness, now Power Shiro/Dwarf is almost useless to play compared Condition Mallyx/Jalis. Chill and Slow were also there to make the final hit possible and less risky, now it's clunky and still missing sometime but the fast skill also often desync which makes evading it stupidly clunky as the old one usually had the player moving to update with the first hit. Also it's common that Deathstrike is used with Phase Traversal, Quickness compensates for how usually slow the skill was compared to the past, which now is really stupid fast.

    Overall a fan of these as it gives condi rev something useful to swap to.

    Mace

    Same thoughts, it feels just right, but could use one simple change.

    • Searing Fissure animation needs to be fixed, it's annoyingly uneven.
    • Echoing Eruption needs to be affected by Quickness, it's one of the main damage output that cannot be helped which is already quite telegraphed. Leaps like Weaver and Holosmith already can be sped up, so this is no limitation whatsoever.

    Axe

    Speed up the animation of Temporal Rift, it does nothing but CC and is super easy to evade

    Staff

    Speed up the wind up of Surge of the Mists, it's too slow and basically just useful as a kitting tool right now.

    Hammer

    Fix CoR already, it's been months. Still broken with no sound. If I might add, rework the 2nd skill entirely as a skill like Engineer Blunderbuss, the current one makes it a clunky/nonviable weapon in most PvP maps due to terrain complexity.

    Traits

    Invocation

    Same thoughts.

    • Incensed Response needed to be nerfed, I agree with Anet's reasoning, but not like this. Roll back the nerf and either reduce the Might Duration or the amount of Might gained. Do it for WvW as well, not just PvP, the synergy is broken on Herald, that's it. Otherwise it's useless.

    An alternative could be to make herald pulse fury for a longer duration at a slower pace. Like 6 sec every 6 sec, or some other number. The trait feels fine outside of it's interaction with herald.

    • Charged Mists requirements are too high and makes it purely a PvE trait until the required energy is increased to 25, it's already hard enough to keep the energy low while being effective and stunbreaking at the same time, traits should work together not against each other. If you really want to make it casual, have no requirement at all and just grant 25 energy on legend swap in combat, players are giving up on instant invoking effects/critical chance for this, it wouldn't break balance at all.

    Gaining 25 energy is however very powerful. I think 10 is too low however as it's sometimes really clunky to "find" a skill that gusts the right amount to put you below it, especially when you're within the 15-20 range.

    I would say 15 or 20 could be a good requirement, maybe even 25.

    • Roiling Mists was nerfed along many things, including Main-Hand Sword and Incensed Response which was too much, it hit Revenant greatly and not so much for Herald nor Renegade. It needs to be brought back the way it was.

    Devastation

    Good rework, but weak traits.

    • Increase Battle Scars healing to be close or even with Steadfast Rejuvenation, otherwise it's plain not viable over damage.

    Corruption

    Invoke Torment is a good way to balance the instant aspect of transfer, but you've messed up a few places.

    • Replenishing Despair conditions do insignificant amount of damage when self torment is transferred compared the old Maniacal Persistence, fix that.
    • Pulsating Pestilence is weak at 2 conditions transferred, you didn't even touch Necromancer shroud yet nerf the instant aspect of transfers on Revenant while also reducing the conditions to the point where it's not even functioning properly. 2 is too low and as it's already RNG enough to transfer the conditions that matter, this needs to be 3 and the radius needs to be 360 given it's delay and tell.

    Disagree. Permeating pestilence is very strong right now, to the point where our already eclipses the other 2 traits, its 240 range so you need to use CtA first of the enemies are spread.

    Retribution

    Mostly the same thoughts.

    • Close Quarters is a very low bonus to trade off Planar Protection, considering it destroy projectiles at range, it applies Weakness at close. Make the trait damage reduction distance based and up to 20% from the furthest which would be more reasonable given that there's nothing to gain from being "Close Quarters" with it.
    • Spiritual Reckoning ICD is high for how short the boon is. Increasing the duration to 5 seconds would fix that. Removing the ICD would make it spammable with certain legends which is bad, so please address the boon duration or reduce the ICD to 5 seconds.
    • Eye for an Eye ICD too high, asking for Jalis players to not get stunned every so often with all the boon removal, 25 seconds would be more reasonable, the trait really has to be godly to justify not taking Dwarven Battle Training, this trait should grant 3 seconds of Retaliation instead of 5 seconds of Might, Revenants are easy to lock down and punishing those constant focuses with stunbreak would make it a viable option.
    • Dwarven Battle Training nerf is unwarranted if you're taking away Expertise, restore this to 4 seconds at least, 3 seconds is low and doesn't punish as much for people eating your CC's.
    • Versed in Stone the toughness benefit in PvP is too low, should be at least as high as Armored Attack like on Warrior.

    Salvation

    This traitline is actually good and fairly varied, the only problem is orbs. Please Anet, either rework the traits based on orbs altogether or make the orbs track players. There's too much visual clutter or RNG to make it viable. Fragments are already random enough.

    Skills / Stances

    Ancient Echo

    Still a good addition that contributes in keeping Revenant relevant in the game, it wouldn't be the same without it since it was extremely hard to play otherwise. There's just this one bug with Versed in Stone not counting towards Rite of the Great Dwarf from Ancient Echo which really needs to be fixed, considering how often it's used. For both Shiro and Ventari it would be very useful to work accordingly.

    Legendary Assassin

    Same thoughts.

    Legendary Centaur

    Same thoughts.

    • Project Tranquility should "tether" the Tablet and "follow" the player until Ventari's Will is used where manual control is took until Energy Expulsion is used to reset it back to tether. This is an important change that needs to be looked into with how clunky it is to handle, have the players will lose the benefits of using anything that relates to a healing skill such as Blindness from Blinding Truths or runes that provide extra benefits from using it often, it balances the playstyle out.
    • Purifying Essence absolutely needs to be a stunbreak, make it happen so that the legend can finally step out of the Glint/Jalis combo's, it sucks to be so limited. There is too much CC in the game to stay that one legend should not have one. Even if the Tablet can be handled while stunned among other things, the pressure is too great, Ventari bonuses are all outgoing, there's nothing to recover from a stunlock the moment a whole entire zerg decides to focus the user entering the stance. While at it, an additional condition for a total of 4 and 30 energy to unify around the other stunbreak skills.

    Legendary Demon

    I've warned about the power creep and it's already a problem, aside some of the same ideas.

    • Empowering Misery needs to have Resistance as baseline without trait, it's such a ridiculous idea to ask players having many conditions on them to quickly lose everything again. Demonic Defiance ICD is also separate from the healing skill itself which means in the end there's still 4 seconds of Resistance to be had regardless whether it grants Resistance or not after using another Demon skill, just fix it so it's actually all uniform per skill plus the heal skill baseline Resistance.

    I would personally want demonic defiance slightly reworked to have no cooldown but shorter duration (like 0.5-0.75 sec, so you'd have to cast 3-4 skills/5 sec to hear the current) and most importantly trigger at the start of skills. Condi Rev doesn't need to be able to gain anywhere near permanent resistance.

    Heal will giving some amount by default would be nice (or even it just always ignoring poison), as suddenly demonic defiance wouldn't be quite as much of an obvious choice.

    • Call to Anguish needs to cost 35 and have a higher cooldown of 5 seconds comparatively to Phase Traversal, this is literally the only reason why you have so many condition revenants now and people think it's OP.

    Disagree. But wouldn't kill condi rev so could be worse.

    Legendary Dwarf

    Same thoughts.

    • Soothing Stone should grant 586 (0.15) Barrier per condition removed and actually remove all of them if anything because it's awful how by default Revenant even with Vengeful Hammers is really weak to conditions yet allowed to tank them. A full cleanse skill isn't something Revenant has yet and should by now, be rewarded to actually use the skill at the right time as well is something of a healthy change for the entire class and it's weakness to condition damage. Post about it here https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/89103/soothing-stone-is-out-of-date#latest

    As I usually play with dwarf obviously this would be a fantastic change for me, but rev heals are weaker on purpose than other heals (because you have 2), giving them almost consume conditions would be kinda overpowered.

    I do however love the idea of barrier/condi while keeping the limit of 5 condis.

    I'd also say that historically (power) revenant was always weak to condis but now that you can clear up to 4 condis/swap it's a lot less so (ye I know cleansing isn't class specific, but interactions with runes/sigils are a big part of what makes classes strong/weak)

    • Forced Engagement needs PvP uniformity compared it's PvE counter part, 15 seconds puts up for rather clunky followings when it barely lasts 2 seconds. Giving it 10 seconds for PvP/WvW would actually make the stance more attractive for many.

    The skill is already quite powerful imo, the game doesn't (and condi rev in particular doesn't) need more stronger CC, 15 sec is pretty short for what it is, I would however want it to not be counted as a projectile.

    Yes, I would say even shorter casttime, it's 40 energy to reduce dmg after all, not become invuln to it.

    Regarding dwarf I'd also really like inspiring reinforcement to give stab as soon as it starts, it currently has a very very small window in which you can get interrupted, where the skill doesn't happen but goes on full cooldown and still costs 30 energy.

    Elite Specializations

    Herald

    Shield

    Same thoughts, good asset to any bruiser/sustain builds, but both skills could use some work.

    • Envoy of Exuberance is.. Alright, but please make the hitbox bigger, move faster as well as fixing Aegis blocking the skill.. Also the sending/returning energy to grant Protection consistently from to teammates/users, it has potent uses but those needs to be polished.
    • Crystal Hybernation with such a big root might as well maybe make blocking 4 seconds, just like the same amount of pulses (Not sure on that one). Those pulses should also affect allies in a radius of 360, make Herald be more supportive oriented so that most can finally stop complaining at how selfish of a skill it is even though there's many like it in the game.

    Traits

    Herald has only one trait that really is lacking and with the nerfs, it's even more needed.

    All of the effects are rounded up as well.

    • Core Value needs to do twice of what it already does. Every benefits from it are not good enough to pick over Rising Momentum. Edit: This could actually be overpowered and over doing it because True Nature affects multiple targets. Instead of just affecting True Nature alone, it should also improve the Facet of Nature passive by 50% their effects.
    1. Facet of Nature—Assassin Life Steal Damage: 80 (0.0666) and Life Steal Healing: 128 (0.0333), given this would make it also more effective for teammates since it uses the affected player's power/healing power and not the Herald's.
    2. Facet of Nature—Centaur heals twice it's current value every 3 seconds.
    3. Facet of Nature—Demon transfers 2 conditions every 3 seconds.
    4. Facet of Nature—Dwarf gives 15% damage reduction.
    5. Facet of Nature—Dragon gives +30% boon duration.
    • Elevated Compassion should heal up to 5 (Capped) times the amount based on the number of boons granted just like Resilient Spirit except to teammates only.

    >

    Legendary Dragon

    Same thoughts. Most of those skills are quite fine tuned aside a few things.

    • True Nature is the best change Herald has seen in it's entire existence. Also reduce the upkeep to 2 across all game modes, 3 is too much to make the player want to keep it's passive for a while. All True Nature skills that are offensive (Demon and Assasin) should have a radius of 360, all passives are otherwise untouched at 600 Radius.

    Hard disagree here. True nature - Demon feels randomly thrown in there and very overtuned (but we're discussing this in another thread already so not gonna spend too much on it here)

    Suffice to say I feel that true nature - Demon is the reason why condi herald is so much more common than condi core/renegade due to it's rather obscene powerlevel.

    • Gaze of Darkness changes are great, even though it was bugged for a while. The radius increase is quite welcomed but if the Revealed cannot be applied unless the foe is in stealth, I and most people would agree that they'd prefer the old one because prevention does a lot more than just hoping to time it right as Stealth is used, people can evade it.
    • Chaotic Release is an odd one, does it really deserve to not have 20 seconds cooldown where we have a CC on all legends that have a much lower cooldown that shares similar if not more reliable features as they are much less telling than this skill? Pretty sure people were just thrown off by the fact it was quicker and not used often when it was buffed.

    >

    Renegade

    Shortbow

    Good on paper, but EXTREMELY clunky in action..

    • Bloodbane Path increase the hitbox and velocity of the projectiles so that they actually hit, even when targets are standing still, it misses.
    • Sevenshot needs to be a beautiful circle of arrow that projects in a concentrated dot in front of the player rather than forcing the player to have the perfect distance, timing and accuracy to land full damage while it's cool looking but a worthless design at any range that doesn't respect it.
    • Spiritcrush directional requirement is terrible, there shouldn't be a need for line of sight when arrows are shot strategically in a portal regardless. Bloodbane Path doesn't so why this one?
    • Scorchrazor ruins the flow with it's ¾ cast time, very often it goes on full cooldown even though the skill didn't even cast as the user try to kite. Make it uniform with the rest of it's skills with ½ cast time or fix the influence of movement on it, the projectile still take time to reach and is REALLY easy to evade.

    Sure, all good ideas

    Traits

    All of those are really strong, it's hard to find any flaws into them. Maybe I haven't played enough Renegade but for the most part trying to come up with anything that doesn't seem overpowered to the specialization is really hard. Should one trait be changed to grant the summons stability by default so they don't get interrupted right away and offer some pressure.

    There's no good option for the 2nd pickable trait in PvP (mostly cause shortbow is bad and condi renegade doesn't stunbreak much).

    If renegade had good stunbreaks or shortbow was good this wouldn't be an issue.

    Otherwise replacing the stunbreak trait with something along the lines of

    Stunbreak on using any citadel order skill (could be too strong)

    Take less dmg for each stack of fervor (like 2-5%)

    Each stack of fervor reduces the duration of hard CC (like 6-10%)

    Heal some small amount whey gaining fervor

    Or something offensive, either way would be nice with at least 1 (preferably 2+ good traits to pick from in each tier)

    Legendary Renegade

    Same for these, there's little to come up with without tipping the balance upside down.

    • Citadel Bombardment cooldown is the only one that stands out as why is it even so high in PvP/WvW? Should be the same that PvE has, the ordnance is pretty RNG and players have a rather small hitbox.

    It's 15 seconds in all gamemodes as far as I can tell (at least according to wiki and looking in game). Only difference is 35 energy in PvE and 30 in WvW/PvP.

    I would want this to use energy at the start of the cast rather than the end. This would allow you to use it at 30 energy and instantly swap stance during the casttime, this would make it a lot less clunky with charged mists too.

    What would be very cool would be is if the ordinance would track downed players (ie shooting all the ordinance evenly spread between downed players in the area).

    Closure

    And that's it, I wanted to come up with this right before the patch and so I did with all the time I had to try out mostly everything. See if anything gets predicted or eventually tweaked to in the future. Coming from someone who plays other than Herald in PvP which is a lot of fun. Don't let people tell you it anything else isn't viable. It's quite powerful if you play as an actual Revenant and not the latter like other professions. Adapt to the playstyle, Anet has really put some thought into it and it's quite amazing all the things that can be pulled off despite being locked on specific set of skills.

    Overall I mostly like your post, residual the structure and the effort clearly put into it, I agree with a lot of it, disagree with some of it.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    please add an new axe4 animation that wont let everyone fly off the edge of something ^^then im with u

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    Agree on everything with shortbow. Anet pls.

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Disagree on most of this. Especially with anything that increases Energy cost and Cooldowns! As stated above, reduce functionality not usage! Increasing those further strays from the class concept to begin with.

    Also, the only skill that needs fixing on Shortbow is #2 and maybe the worth of energy costs. Sevenshot is a skill shot and needs to remain that way. Does not need to be change.

  • Jthug.9506Jthug.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:
    Disagree on most of this. Especially with anything that increases Energy cost and Cooldowns! As stated above, reduce functionality not usage! Increasing those further strays from the class concept to begin with.

    Also, the only skill that needs fixing on Shortbow is #2 and maybe the worth of energy costs. Sevenshot is a skill shot and needs to remain that way. Does not need to be change.

    sb4 requiring LOS is silly and irritating

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jthug.9506 said:

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:
    Disagree on most of this. Especially with anything that increases Energy cost and Cooldowns! As stated above, reduce functionality not usage! Increasing those further strays from the class concept to begin with.

    Also, the only skill that needs fixing on Shortbow is #2 and maybe the worth of energy costs. Sevenshot is a skill shot and needs to remain that way. Does not need to be change.

    sb4 requiring LOS is silly and irritating

    I think all projectile weapons and skills should require LOS.

  • Jthug.9506Jthug.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 2, 2020

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Jthug.9506 said:

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:
    Disagree on most of this. Especially with anything that increases Energy cost and Cooldowns! As stated above, reduce functionality not usage! Increasing those further strays from the class concept to begin with.

    Also, the only skill that needs fixing on Shortbow is #2 and maybe the worth of energy costs. Sevenshot is a skill shot and needs to remain that way. Does not need to be change.

    sb4 requiring LOS is silly and irritating

    I think all projectile weapons and skills should require LOS.

    I guess I should clarify, by line of sight I mean that you can't cast it behind you, which makes it extremely difficult to use while kiting. But in terms of flavor since you are firing the arrows into a portal to the char dimension, and they then reappear through another portal, there really shouldn't be a requirement that you can't cast it behind you. Also I wouldn't mind if you couldn't cast them in a cone area behind you so much, but the denial zone is 180 degrees which is crazy. In real life it's certainly possible to fire a bow 15-30 degrees past your shoulder line behind you, and that's without even rotating your torso, if you rotate your torso you can easily fire directly behind you.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682
    Riposting Shadows was changed due to spam, CtA should be changed for the same reasons because otherwise it'll be useless with a small radius that can't be used to keep people from using safe spots. Right now it's extremely useful to keep people from constantly kitting every once in a while and avoids the guess work of stealth spam, people abuse the hell out of that skill without consequences and that's the reason why people think Condi Herald is OP, especially with Firebrand just making that Torment harder to cleanse.

  • Scoobaniec.9561Scoobaniec.9561 Member ✭✭✭

    If you want cooldowns pick guardian or something.. Rev was never supposed to have high cds on weapon skills and completely 0 on utility skills

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Scoobaniec.9561 said:
    If you want cooldowns pick guardian or something.. Rev was never supposed to have high cds on weapon skills and completely 0 on utility skills

    You don't get it do you, spam is not healthy in any form. Because Rev gets energy doesn't mean it should be able to do what it wants anytime it has the energy. This is why weapons have cooldowns, utility is no exception. Make a skill useful with a small cooldown or completely useless but spammable.

  • Scoobaniec.9561Scoobaniec.9561 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Scoobaniec.9561 said:
    If you want cooldowns pick guardian or something.. Rev was never supposed to have high cds on weapon skills and completely 0 on utility skills

    You don't get it do you, spam is not healthy in any form. Because Rev gets energy doesn't mean it should be able to do what it wants anytime it has the energy. This is why weapons have cooldowns, utility is no exception. Make a skill useful with a small cooldown or completely useless but spammable.

    U cant spam without energy. Go on thief section and suggest thieves to have cooldown on weapon skills cause their current desing is not healthy. Dont forget to mention me cuz i wanna grab popcorn and have a good show.

    Like i said thats how rev was originally designed to be, if you dont like it roll a cd class.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Scoobaniec.9561 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Scoobaniec.9561 said:
    If you want cooldowns pick guardian or something.. Rev was never supposed to have high cds on weapon skills and completely 0 on utility skills

    You don't get it do you, spam is not healthy in any form. Because Rev gets energy doesn't mean it should be able to do what it wants anytime it has the energy. This is why weapons have cooldowns, utility is no exception. Make a skill useful with a small cooldown or completely useless but spammable.

    U cant spam without energy. Go on thief section and suggest thieves to have cooldown on weapon skills cause their current desing is not healthy. Dont forget to mention me cuz i wanna grab popcorn and have a good show.

    Like i said thats how rev was originally designed to be, if you dont like it roll a cd class.

    The literal reason why condi rev dominates right now is the CC spam. EtD is easy to shrug off unless you have a FB spamming more conditions on top of it.

  • Hesitant to add my thought on this but the mount engage interaction with Invoke Torment is probably clouding some of Condi rev discussions as well, and might be harmful for the specialization if it's not taken note of. If you haven't looked closer at it, it's kinda nutty, and with the Warclaw around now etc.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Amethyst Lure.5624 said:
    Hesitant to add my thought on this but the mount engage interaction with Invoke Torment is probably clouding some of Condi rev discussions as well, and might be harmful for the specialization if it's not taken note of. If you haven't looked closer at it, it's kinda nutty, and with the Warclaw around now etc.

    It's the same thing with the land to underwater abuse, some design flaws that need to be addressed.

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Scoobaniec.9561 said:
    If you want cooldowns pick guardian or something.. Rev was never supposed to have high cds on weapon skills and completely 0 on utility skills

    You don't get it do you, spam is not healthy in any form. Because Rev gets energy doesn't mean it should be able to do what it wants anytime it has the energy. This is why weapons have cooldowns, utility is no exception. Make a skill useful with a small cooldown or completely useless but spammable.

    You don’t spam CtD, and anyone that does any sort of spamming is doing it wrong. If you do that, you have no energy for anything else and lock yourself out of your other skills, and then you end up taking a dirt nap. The same thing goes for Thief and their Initiative management. Any thief will tell you that. Regardless still, you can’t really spam CtD anyways. The energy cost is too high, unless your just storing up energy. If that’s the case, youre only doing autoattacks. If then you do decide to spam CtD, circle back to what was said later. A half decent player will see the spamming and fully exploit you.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I cant really say if i agree with too much of this or not right now condi revs are fairly strong and some of the things here will make it stronger for sure.
    Even when i play an offensive necro its hard for me to take condi revs down right now because boon corruption was nerfed its a lot harder to hit their resistance boon which effectively lets them run right over me as a necro. Depending on my setup if im not reaper i have near 0 cc potential against them because resistance negates fear too.

    I do think that renegade bow is clunky to use though (still confused on why they gave that elite a short bow in the first place and not a GS) the statue in the black citadel depicts the legend with a GS not a bow in hand.

    Surge of the Mists should probably combined into the staff 3 skill and require that you block an attack before the skill flips over
    This way you can revert it back to the old version which activates instantly but you need to block an attack to use it. This gives players the same situation as rangers counter attack. But what they cant do is make it near as instant as it was with no indication i think if it was any faster start up than what it was now it would not be something you can react to point blank basically you would still be guessing randomly on when you think they are going to push you with it.

    Soothing Stone removing all conditions and giving barrier would basically mean a you probably need to rip all or most of the resistance away from myallx as at this point you would be darn near condition immune with the right setups.

    Charged Mists I do agree that this can be a bit clunky to activate some times with the 10 energy requirement i think for QOL purposes they should remove that and make it give energy on any legend swap how ever 25 is probably too high for that situation something of 15 to 20 at most would be more fair.
    Possibly even swap it so that now swapping legends gives 33% or 50% of remaining energy to the new legend or something might be more unique.

    Of all the changes these are the ones that stuck out to me the most right away the rest i cant really speak on due to lack of exp with those tools or because i think they might be fine as they are. (not including bugged things obviously)

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    generous abundance - double orb radius
    charged mists - remove threshold req
    lasting legacy - some kinda buff
    citadel bombardment - energy too high for half the missiles not hitting
    razorclaws rage - add 2 sec poison
    protective solace - add stunbreak at 10 sec cd. after heal nerfs this spec needs love
    sevenshot, cor - they bad

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2020

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Scoobaniec.9561 said:
    If you want cooldowns pick guardian or something.. Rev was never supposed to have high cds on weapon skills and completely 0 on utility skills

    You don't get it do you, spam is not healthy in any form. Because Rev gets energy doesn't mean it should be able to do what it wants anytime it has the energy. This is why weapons have cooldowns, utility is no exception. Make a skill useful with a small cooldown or completely useless but spammable.

    You don’t spam CtD, and anyone that does any sort of spamming is doing it wrong. If you do that, you have no energy for anything else and lock yourself out of your other skills, and then you end up taking a dirt nap. The same thing goes for Thief and their Initiative management. Any thief will tell you that. Regardless still, you can’t really spam CtD anyways. The energy cost is too high, unless your just storing up energy. If that’s the case, youre only doing autoattacks. If then you do decide to spam CtD, circle back to what was said later. A half decent player will see the spamming and fully exploit you.

    Spam imply over use, on paper CtA is an oppressing skill, in practice it's even more oppressing than on paper because it's a CC that can be used more often than anyone can evade. 1% here plays Core Rev in this "Meta", the rest is Herald which is obviously easy to control, Renegade is even easier. That still doesn't change the fact that it's an AoE CC that cost nothing. They don't have the nerf the already pathetic damage that people call OP.. 15 Torment is nothing in the power that still remains, the CC is the problem. It only cost about 20% energy to inflict 15 Torment, increasing the cost would take care of the constant easy bursts.

    Nobody could overuse Phase Traversal, for good reason but could overuse Riposting Shadows and now that it cannot be, it shows how bloated the skill was, this here is no exception.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    I cant really say if i agree with too much of this or not right now condi revs are fairly strong and some of the things here will make it stronger for sure.
    Even when i play an offensive necro its hard for me to take condi revs down right now because boon corruption was nerfed its a lot harder to hit their resistance boon which effectively lets them run right over me as a necro. Depending on my setup if im not reaper i have near 0 cc potential against them because resistance negates fear too.

    Why do you think Torment is effective? It's just one condition. Out of everything else, the torment burst is extremely telegraphed and CCable if the Revenant is not having Jalis.

    I do think that renegade bow is clunky to use though (still confused on why they gave that elite a short bow in the first place and not a GS) the statue in the black citadel depicts the legend with a GS not a bow in hand.

    I prefer the shortbow, if only the skills would actually hit, I'd run hybrid.

    Surge of the Mists should probably combined into the staff 3 skill and require that you block an attack before the skill flips over
    This way you can revert it back to the old version which activates instantly but you need to block an attack to use it. This gives players the same situation as rangers counter attack. But what they cant do is make it near as instant as it was with no indication i think if it was any faster start up than what it was now it would not be something you can react to point blank basically you would still be guessing randomly on when you think they are going to push you with it.

    I think the idea they have is fine but they think people are slow and snails, which kills the skill for offense.

    Soothing Stone removing all conditions and giving barrier would basically mean a you probably need to rip all or most of the resistance away from myallx as at this point you would be darn near condition immune with the right setups.

    Not so much, it would reward people for using an already underpowered heal skill at the right time because most of Jalis survivability comes from Vengeful Hammers which was nerfed with Steadfast, unlike Herald Heal which can still eat everything and it's not getting changed anytime soon, we all know it. Power Rev needs some love too with it
    https://gyazo.com/017c8992543c09f055bf51a32ca4db11
    https://gyazo.com/5abe877ea8eb3007f0825007d99e1494

    Charged Mists I do agree that this can be a bit clunky to activate some times with the 10 energy requirement i think for QOL purposes they should remove that and make it give energy on any legend swap how ever 25 is probably too high for that situation something of 15 to 20 at most would be more fair.
    Possibly even swap it so that now swapping legends gives 33% or 50% of remaining energy to the new legend or something might be more unique.

    I wouldn't be against transfering 25% energy left rather than forcing to have less than 25%. SotM is more viable because it's instant, 25% is about as good as SotM as it gives one extra skill to use. Because of bugs as Renegade, it's rather easy to tug at in PvP but it's still clunky and the SotM of Renegade is worthless anyway. Honestly, just giving 25% is not as bad as it sounds.

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Scoobaniec.9561 said:
    If you want cooldowns pick guardian or something.. Rev was never supposed to have high cds on weapon skills and completely 0 on utility skills

    You don't get it do you, spam is not healthy in any form. Because Rev gets energy doesn't mean it should be able to do what it wants anytime it has the energy. This is why weapons have cooldowns, utility is no exception. Make a skill useful with a small cooldown or completely useless but spammable.

    You don’t spam CtD, and anyone that does any sort of spamming is doing it wrong. If you do that, you have no energy for anything else and lock yourself out of your other skills, and then you end up taking a dirt nap. The same thing goes for Thief and their Initiative management. Any thief will tell you that. Regardless still, you can’t really spam CtD anyways. The energy cost is too high, unless your just storing up energy. If that’s the case, youre only doing autoattacks. If then you do decide to spam CtD, circle back to what was said later. A half decent player will see the spamming and fully exploit you.

    Spot on analysis. Skill is too costly to “spam” without leaving yourself massively open. Plus it’s telegraphed, dodgeable, and interruptable.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I guess people just want no damage for condi rev then, let it be you. Have CtA be the thing it is and EtD completely nerfed into oblivion.

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    I guess people just want no damage for condi rev then, let it be you. Have CtA be the thing it is and EtD completely nerfed into oblivion.

    Lol. The skill is not op at all like the way you’re trying to make it out to be. There are many ways to stop a rev from even using this skill before he lands with it. Revenants don’t have a reliable way to give itself stability.

    Once again, you cannot spam the skill and most classes have ways to deal with the CC. People are not used to having to bring stun breaks or stability because they were relying on their friendly FB. Now you also have to supplement their stability with your own. It’s simply a matter of adjusting your builds.

    Finally, you have your cost percentage wrong. The skill isn’t 20%, it’s more like 60% if you just swapped over to Mallyx. Unless I’m misunderstanding what you we’re saying.

    Whats making the current rev look overtuned is the Hearld true nature skill on Mallyx. That’s what needs changing.

    Regardless, the energy costs on skills are getting ridiculous now. IMO if we’re going to have skills that cost 50% or more of our initial pool, we need to get rid of CDs altogether.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2020

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    I cant really say if i agree with too much of this or not right now condi revs are fairly strong and some of the things here will make it stronger for sure.
    Even when i play an offensive necro its hard for me to take condi revs down right now because boon corruption was nerfed its a lot harder to hit their resistance boon which effectively lets them run right over me as a necro. Depending on my setup if im not reaper i have near 0 cc potential against them because resistance negates fear too.

    Why do you think Torment is effective? It's just one condition. Out of everything else, the torment burst is extremely telegraphed and CCable if the Revenant is not having Jalis.

    I mean they are at least on mace 3 but there are some methods of applying it that are less obvious while mace 3 is hard to land ive seen what happens when it does land with the right combo of skills and its deady which is fine imo im not saying nerf it but i dont think it needs to be stronger than what it is right now fixing quickness to work with the skill is fine as per the standard of how quickness works with all other skills. But some of the other changes seem like it might be doing a bit much but again im not the pro with rev i admit this.

    I do think that renegade bow is clunky to use though (still confused on why they gave that elite a short bow in the first place and not a GS) the statue in the black citadel depicts the legend with a GS not a bow in hand.

    I prefer the shortbow, if only the skills would actually hit, I'd run hybrid.

    I mean its got some cool skills i just wanted to point out that detail. But yes pleas fix the short bow skills in general skill 2 and 3 often feel odd to use and almost never hit anything thats not a AI pve mob. Skill 4 is weird that you can only aim it in a very small window to the front of you slightly to far to the side and it considers it to be a LoS issue. Skill 5 is one of the few skills that works properly aside from the auto attack thats not overly clunky in some way.

    Surge of the Mists should probably combined into the staff 3 skill and require that you block an attack before the skill flips over
    This way you can revert it back to the old version which activates instantly but you need to block an attack to use it. This gives players the same situation as rangers counter attack. But what they cant do is make it near as instant as it was with no indication i think if it was any faster start up than what it was now it would not be something you can react to point blank basically you would still be guessing randomly on when you think they are going to push you with it.

    I think the idea they have is fine but they think people are slow and snails, which kills the skill for offense.

    Maybe there idea is that its not suppose to be purely for offense i mean it is an evade too and cc's that evade at the same time are certainly not going to get their damage restored in future patches which might imply they dont want it to be used for offense in-fact the weapon as a whole is not even suppose to be geared for offense. Why it was ever allowed to do so in such a way to start with was possibly part of the problem. It was extremely common to be gun down by dps rev with a staff before the patch as opposed to swords mean while every skill on the staff screams defense / support. ITs hard to say really. Im all for making it less clunky but i dont think the goal was for it to be allowed to be heavily offensive as it once was.

    Soothing Stone removing all conditions and giving barrier would basically mean a you probably need to rip all or most of the resistance away from myallx as at this point you would be darn near condition immune with the right setups.

    Not so much, it would reward people for using an already underpowered heal skill at the right time because most of Jalis survivability comes from Vengeful Hammers which was nerfed with Steadfast, unlike Herald Heal which can still eat everything and it's not getting changed anytime soon, we all know it. Power Rev needs some love too with it
    https://gyazo.com/017c8992543c09f055bf51a32ca4db11
    https://gyazo.com/5abe877ea8eb3007f0825007d99e1494

    I dont agree i think these video clips are good examples of why the skill does not need that much of a buff you in both these clips other heals which would not have removed any conditions aside from heralds would have seen that none of that pressure was removed in both examples enough condi pressure was removed to effectively let you breath if you had needed to move to a safer location or even retreat you could have. Ideally i dont think soothing stone needs that kind or that much of a buff just because a skill is underused by rev players does not mean it needs a buff.

    Signet of Vampirism is a perfectly good example. IT was underused and considered to be under powered in the previous patch and right now its one of the best heals a necro can use provided its used with the trait. I would say its even close to being on par with consume conditions in terms of strength depending on how much other condi clear you have in your kit it might even be better than consume conditions.

    Do i think soothing stone could be better yes do i think it needs that much of a buff a 13 condi removal with barrier per condi removed..... no..... revs have 2 healing skills and i think its fair to say that because of that the power of each heal should be split to some extent you cant have 1 heal thats on par with something like consume conditions and then have a 2nd heal thats just as good or better that really wouldnt be fair in my personal opinion.

    Charged Mists I do agree that this can be a bit clunky to activate some times with the 10 energy requirement i think for QOL purposes they should remove that and make it give energy on any legend swap how ever 25 is probably too high for that situation something of 15 to 20 at most would be more fair.
    Possibly even swap it so that now swapping legends gives 33% or 50% of remaining energy to the new legend or something might be more unique.

    I wouldn't be against transfering 25% energy left rather than forcing to have less than 25%. SotM is more viable because it's instant, 25% is about as good as SotM as it gives one extra skill to use. Because of bugs as Renegade, it's rather easy to tug at in PvP but it's still clunky and the SotM of Renegade is worthless anyway. Honestly, just giving 25% is not as bad as it sounds.

    Again yes QoL fix this no excuse or complaints here.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2020

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    I guess people just want no damage for condi rev then, let it be you. Have CtA be the thing it is and EtD completely nerfed into oblivion.

    Lol. The skill is not op at all like the way you’re trying to make it out to be. There are many ways to stop a rev from even using this skill before he lands with it. Revenants don’t have a reliable way to give itself stability.

    It's OP because it leaves too much energy and can be easily reused, aka spammed.

    Once again, you cannot spam the skill and most classes have ways to deal with the CC. People are not used to having to bring stun breaks or stability because they were relying on their friendly FB. Now you also have to supplement their stability with your own. It’s simply a matter of adjusting your builds.

    Why do you think I have been saying the Herald Condition is inferior in past posts? For a reason as mostly because it's weak to heavy CC just like a Necro. There's still not enough of a consequence to CtA and that contributes to the power creep.

    Finally, you have your cost percentage wrong. The skill isn’t 20%, it’s more like 60% if you just swapped over to Mallyx. Unless I’m misunderstanding what you we’re saying.

    It's even less at barely 10% for a full Mallyx burst on fresh swap. https://gyazo.com/85ec05aabb9d1a3425644f94ec0a39d4 Takes one evade to avoid.
    With leap still leaves 10% spare which is too much after this much pressure. https://gyazo.com/4ddbee1b59f8883741415f8770b8832b Takes two evades to fully avoid and doesn't leave the user vulnerable.

    Whats making the current rev look overtuned is the Hearld true nature skill on Mallyx. That’s what needs changing.

    I've already suggested a radius changedown to 360 while keeping it's passive a 600 just like they did with Shiro.

    Regardless, the energy costs on skills are getting ridiculous now. IMO if we’re going to have skills that cost 50% or more of our initial pool, we need to get rid of CDs altogether.

    There's nothing ridiculous about 35% Energy and 5 Seconds CD on a CC with this large of a radius. Phase Traversal has always been this much and people worked it out just fine.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    I cant really say if i agree with too much of this or not right now condi revs are fairly strong and some of the things here will make it stronger for sure.
    Even when i play an offensive necro its hard for me to take condi revs down right now because boon corruption was nerfed its a lot harder to hit their resistance boon which effectively lets them run right over me as a necro. Depending on my setup if im not reaper i have near 0 cc potential against them because resistance negates fear too.

    Why do you think Torment is effective? It's just one condition. Out of everything else, the torment burst is extremely telegraphed and CCable if the Revenant is not having Jalis.

    I mean they are at least on mace 3 but there are some methods of applying it that are less obvious while mace 3 is hard to land ive seen what happens when it does land with the right combo of skills and its deady which is fine imo im not saying nerf it but i dont think it needs to be stronger than what it is right now fixing quickness to work with the skill is fine as per the standard of how quickness works with all other skills. But some of the other changes seem like it might be doing a bit much but again im not the pro with rev i admit this.

    It's about 15 Torment like this, but it's "only" Torment which is less than a guard burst. So nothing to real fear unless you have a FB constantly messing you up on the side.

    Maybe there idea is that its not suppose to be purely for offense i mean it is an evade too and cc's that evade at the same time are certainly not going to get their damage restored in future patches which might imply they dont want it to be used for offense in-fact the weapon as a whole is not even suppose to be geared for offense. Why it was ever allowed to do so in such a way to start with was possibly part of the problem. It was extremely common to be gun down by dps rev with a staff before the patch as opposed to swords mean while every skill on the staff screams defense / support. ITs hard to say really. Im all for making it less clunky but i dont think the goal was for it to be allowed to be heavily offensive as it once was.

    250ms would still worlds better than now, there's nothing this skill can do to anyone with a brain.

    Soothing Stone removing all conditions and giving barrier would basically mean a you probably need to rip all or most of the resistance away from myallx as at this point you would be darn near condition immune with the right setups.

    Not so much, it would reward people for using an already underpowered heal skill at the right time because most of Jalis survivability comes from Vengeful Hammers which was nerfed with Steadfast, unlike Herald Heal which can still eat everything and it's not getting changed anytime soon, we all know it. Power Rev needs some love too with it
    https://gyazo.com/017c8992543c09f055bf51a32ca4db11
    https://gyazo.com/5abe877ea8eb3007f0825007d99e1494

    I dont agree i think these video clips are good examples of why the skill does not need that much of a buff you in both these clips other heals which would not have removed any conditions aside from heralds would have seen that none of that pressure was removed in both examples enough condi pressure was removed to effectively let you breath if you had needed to move to a safer location or even retreat you could have. Ideally i dont think soothing stone needs that kind or that much of a buff just because a skill is underused by rev players does not mean it needs a buff.
    Do i think soothing stone could be better yes do i think it needs that much of a buff a 13 condi removal with barrier per condi removed..... no..... revs have 2 healing skills and i think its fair to say that because of that the power of each heal should be split to some extent you cant have 1 heal thats on par with something like consume conditions and then have a 2nd heal thats just as good or better that really wouldnt be fair in my personal opinion.

    This is mostly for Power, not Conditions and even if people would use Conditions, it's just Barrier and that would indulge in giving the player a break since right now you can keep pressuring without much of a problem. Core Revenant took a big hit this patch by losing one condition on transfer and have it be telegraphed on Legend Swap, people have to earn that cleanse by not being interrupted and timing it right. Why should Herald get a free ticket again with it's Invulnerable frames and shield cleansing, the skill itself also doesn't take proper timing like Soothing Stone does, those clips were to show that even if I am making the most out of my heal skill, I'm still in at a major disadvantage. The idea is to reward people for doing things right during the spam, should Jalis be just a bit more rewarding as it is the worst out of all skills, even the Renegade one at 50% condition damage reduction.

    Getting 7,618 barrier for cleansing 13 conditions is also far from well, you know too much when you're the center of attention and just removed the entire condition line of the game under all that pressure. It's not like I am healing for more than 5k still and the healing power scaling is still horrible. The biggest complain is how even when you have 5 conditions to remove, you still don't remove the most important.

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2020

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    I guess people just want no damage for condi rev then, let it be you. Have CtA be the thing it is and EtD completely nerfed into oblivion.

    Lol. The skill is not op at all like the way you’re trying to make it out to be. There are many ways to stop a rev from even using this skill before he lands with it. Revenants don’t have a reliable way to give itself stability.

    It's OP because it leaves too much energy and can be easily reused, aka spammed.

    Once again, you cannot spam the skill and most classes have ways to deal with the CC. People are not used to having to bring stun breaks or stability because they were relying on their friendly FB. Now you also have to supplement their stability with your own. It’s simply a matter of adjusting your builds.

    Why do you think I have been saying the Herald Condition is inferior in past posts? For a reason as mostly because it's weak to heavy CC just like a Necro. There's still not enough of a consequence to CtA and that contributes to the power creep.

    Finally, you have your cost percentage wrong. The skill isn’t 20%, it’s more like 60% if you just swapped over to Mallyx. Unless I’m misunderstanding what you we’re saying.

    It's even less at barely 10% for a full Mallyx burst on fresh swap. https://gyazo.com/85ec05aabb9d1a3425644f94ec0a39d4 Takes one evade to avoid.
    With leap still leaves 10% spare which is too much after this much pressure. https://gyazo.com/4ddbee1b59f8883741415f8770b8832b Takes two evades to fully avoid and doesn't leave the user vulnerable.

    Whats making the current rev look overtuned is the Hearld true nature skill on Mallyx. That’s what needs changing.

    I've already suggested a radius changedown to 360 while keeping it's passive a 600 just like they did with Shiro.

    Regardless, the energy costs on skills are getting ridiculous now. IMO if we’re going to have skills that cost 50% or more of our initial pool, we need to get rid of CDs altogether.

    There's nothing ridiculous about 35% Energy and 5 Seconds CD on a CC with this large of a radius. Phase Traversal has always been this much and people worked it out just fine.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    I cant really say if i agree with too much of this or not right now condi revs are fairly strong and some of the things here will make it stronger for sure.
    Even when i play an offensive necro its hard for me to take condi revs down right now because boon corruption was nerfed its a lot harder to hit their resistance boon which effectively lets them run right over me as a necro. Depending on my setup if im not reaper i have near 0 cc potential against them because resistance negates fear too.

    Why do you think Torment is effective? It's just one condition. Out of everything else, the torment burst is extremely telegraphed and CCable if the Revenant is not having Jalis.

    I mean they are at least on mace 3 but there are some methods of applying it that are less obvious while mace 3 is hard to land ive seen what happens when it does land with the right combo of skills and its deady which is fine imo im not saying nerf it but i dont think it needs to be stronger than what it is right now fixing quickness to work with the skill is fine as per the standard of how quickness works with all other skills. But some of the other changes seem like it might be doing a bit much but again im not the pro with rev i admit this.

    It's about 15 Torment like this, but it's "only" Torment which is less than a guard burst. So nothing to real fear unless you have a FB constantly messing you up on the side.

    Maybe there idea is that its not suppose to be purely for offense i mean it is an evade too and cc's that evade at the same time are certainly not going to get their damage restored in future patches which might imply they dont want it to be used for offense in-fact the weapon as a whole is not even suppose to be geared for offense. Why it was ever allowed to do so in such a way to start with was possibly part of the problem. It was extremely common to be gun down by dps rev with a staff before the patch as opposed to swords mean while every skill on the staff screams defense / support. ITs hard to say really. Im all for making it less clunky but i dont think the goal was for it to be allowed to be heavily offensive as it once was.

    250ms would still worlds better than now, there's nothing this skill can do to anyone with a brain.

    Soothing Stone removing all conditions and giving barrier would basically mean a you probably need to rip all or most of the resistance away from myallx as at this point you would be darn near condition immune with the right setups.

    Not so much, it would reward people for using an already underpowered heal skill at the right time because most of Jalis survivability comes from Vengeful Hammers which was nerfed with Steadfast, unlike Herald Heal which can still eat everything and it's not getting changed anytime soon, we all know it. Power Rev needs some love too with it
    https://gyazo.com/017c8992543c09f055bf51a32ca4db11
    https://gyazo.com/5abe877ea8eb3007f0825007d99e1494

    I dont agree i think these video clips are good examples of why the skill does not need that much of a buff you in both these clips other heals which would not have removed any conditions aside from heralds would have seen that none of that pressure was removed in both examples enough condi pressure was removed to effectively let you breath if you had needed to move to a safer location or even retreat you could have. Ideally i dont think soothing stone needs that kind or that much of a buff just because a skill is underused by rev players does not mean it needs a buff.
    Do i think soothing stone could be better yes do i think it needs that much of a buff a 13 condi removal with barrier per condi removed..... no..... revs have 2 healing skills and i think its fair to say that because of that the power of each heal should be split to some extent you cant have 1 heal thats on par with something like consume conditions and then have a 2nd heal thats just as good or better that really wouldnt be fair in my personal opinion.

    This is mostly for Power, not Conditions and even if people would use Conditions, it's just Barrier and that would indulge in giving the player a break since right now you can keep pressuring without much of a problem. Core Revenant took a big hit this patch by losing one condition on transfer and have it be telegraphed on Legend Swap, people have to earn that cleanse by not being interrupted and timing it right. Why should Herald get a free ticket again with it's Invulnerable frames and shield cleansing, the skill itself also doesn't take proper timing like Soothing Stone does, those clips were to show that even if I am making the most out of my heal skill, I'm still in at a major disadvantage. The idea is to reward people for doing things right during the spam, should Jalis be just a bit more rewarding as it is the worst out of all skills, even the Renegade one at 50% condition damage reduction.

    Getting 7,618 barrier for cleansing 13 conditions is also far from well, you know too much when you're the center of attention and just removed the entire condition line of the game under all that pressure. It's not like I am healing for more than 5k still and the healing power scaling is still horrible. The biggest complain is how even when you have 5 conditions to remove, you still don't remove the most important.

    In reference to the replies to me:

    1. So, you’re talking about 2 different skills here. I am talking about only CtA, because that’s the CC skill your questioning. Mace 3, which is what your using in both videos, is NOT a CC skill.
    2. CtA is not spammable. Period. There is literally a 3 sec CD to it. So even if you had full 100 energy, you can’t spam it. Also, it costs 30 energy, which equates to 60% of your energy pool of a fresh Mallyx swap of 50 energy. If you wait unit 100 energy, it then costs you 30% of your energy pool.
    3. On your second video, you used both Mace 3 and CtA, only one of which is a CC, and leaves you with only 9 energy. A half decent player will easily notice this, promptly CC you and unload on you because you have no energy for a stunbreak, and then /laugh at you multiple times.
  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    I cant really say if i agree with too much of this or not right now condi revs are fairly strong and some of the things here will make it stronger for sure.
    Even when i play an offensive necro its hard for me to take condi revs down right now because boon corruption was nerfed its a lot harder to hit their resistance boon which effectively lets them run right over me as a necro. Depending on my setup if im not reaper i have near 0 cc potential against them because resistance negates fear too.

    Why do you think Torment is effective? It's just one condition. Out of everything else, the torment burst is extremely telegraphed and CCable if the Revenant is not having Jalis.

    I mean they are at least on mace 3 but there are some methods of applying it that are less obvious while mace 3 is hard to land ive seen what happens when it does land with the right combo of skills and its deady which is fine imo im not saying nerf it but i dont think it needs to be stronger than what it is right now fixing quickness to work with the skill is fine as per the standard of how quickness works with all other skills. But some of the other changes seem like it might be doing a bit much but again im not the pro with rev i admit this.

    It's about 15 Torment like this, but it's "only" Torment which is less than a guard burst. So nothing to real fear unless you have a FB constantly messing you up on the side.

    Again i dont have issues with the 15 torment because its only torment and that takes landing a specific combo to confirm im fine with it im not against rev having decent torment damage. Im simply saying i dont think condi rev needs drastic buffs. I personally wish necro had less condition spread so it could ramp that high that fast in combos xD.

    I dont even want to talk about FB that is just nuts.

    Maybe there idea is that its not suppose to be purely for offense i mean it is an evade too and cc's that evade at the same time are certainly not going to get their damage restored in future patches which might imply they dont want it to be used for offense in-fact the weapon as a whole is not even suppose to be geared for offense. Why it was ever allowed to do so in such a way to start with was possibly part of the problem. It was extremely common to be gun down by dps rev with a staff before the patch as opposed to swords mean while every skill on the staff screams defense / support. ITs hard to say really. Im all for making it less clunky but i dont think the goal was for it to be allowed to be heavily offensive as it once was.

    250ms would still worlds better than now, there's nothing this skill can do to anyone with a brain.

    I mean some times i turn my brain off in fights cause i think im winning and then get erased but im a filthy casual depending on the day im not always that determined to win again if they can find a way to improve it without making it near instant thats fine. But it cant be something that just instantly comes out. IF they are gonna do that i want my instant doom back. :disappointed_relieved:

    I still suggest making the skill a 2 part thing where the cc portion is a flip over skill meaning something needs to happen before it can be used instantly this would give players a sense of warning even if the skill was reverted back to its instant push state.

    Soothing Stone removing all conditions and giving barrier would basically mean a you probably need to rip all or most of the resistance away from myallx as at this point you would be darn near condition immune with the right setups.

    Not so much, it would reward people for using an already underpowered heal skill at the right time because most of Jalis survivability comes from Vengeful Hammers which was nerfed with Steadfast, unlike Herald Heal which can still eat everything and it's not getting changed anytime soon, we all know it. Power Rev needs some love too with it
    https://gyazo.com/017c8992543c09f055bf51a32ca4db11
    https://gyazo.com/5abe877ea8eb3007f0825007d99e1494

    I dont agree i think these video clips are good examples of why the skill does not need that much of a buff you in both these clips other heals which would not have removed any conditions aside from heralds would have seen that none of that pressure was removed in both examples enough condi pressure was removed to effectively let you breath if you had needed to move to a safer location or even retreat you could have. Ideally i dont think soothing stone needs that kind or that much of a buff just because a skill is underused by rev players does not mean it needs a buff.
    Do i think soothing stone could be better yes do i think it needs that much of a buff a 13 condi removal with barrier per condi removed..... no..... revs have 2 healing skills and i think its fair to say that because of that the power of each heal should be split to some extent you cant have 1 heal thats on par with something like consume conditions and then have a 2nd heal thats just as good or better that really wouldnt be fair in my personal opinion.

    This is mostly for Power, not Conditions and even if people would use Conditions, it's just Barrier and that would indulge in giving the player a break since right now you can keep pressuring without much of a problem. Core Revenant took a big hit this patch by losing one condition on transfer and have it be telegraphed on Legend Swap, people have to earn that cleanse by not being interrupted and timing it right. Why should Herald get a free ticket again with it's Invulnerable frames and shield cleansing, the skill itself also doesn't take proper timing like Soothing Stone does, those clips were to show that even if I am making the most out of my heal skill, I'm still in at a major disadvantage. The idea is to reward people for doing things right during the spam, should Jalis be just a bit more rewarding as it is the worst out of all skills, even the Renegade one at 50% condition damage reduction.

    Getting 7,618 barrier for cleansing 13 conditions is also far from well, you know too much when you're the center of attention and just removed the entire condition line of the game under all that pressure. It's not like I am healing for more than 5k still and the healing power scaling is still horrible. The biggest complain is how even when you have 5 conditions to remove, you still don't remove the most important.

    Realistically you would rarely get all 13 conditions on you but thats kinda besides the point.

    Well the herald heal does not remove conditions so when the effect ends they still are going to take damage. There are some condi burst in the game right now where 3s wont cover the remaining durations after the fact where they will immediately lose that hp they gained in those 2-3 tics while under the healing effect.
    The heals imo really do have different purposes and infuse light is more or less a double edged sword great against power burst not so much against face tanking condi where you still take the damage after the fact.

    The fact that before with revs especially heralds was that they never had to stop attacking was part of the whole issue with them so the fact that now they can be pressured to some extent is not a bad thing.

    Condition removal is a bit wonky only thief has heals that target specific conditions everyone else for the most part is in the same boat with their heals which is the most important to remove varies from person to person and from one build you face to another again though you have 2 healing skills in combat to help deal with that kind of stuff even if both heals dont specifically target condition removal. I just dont think it would be fair to give rev a heal thats nearly on par with other professions who only have 1 heal in any combat situation.

    The closes of which you are asking for would be consume conditions and its on a profession that lacks the mobility or hard defenses of revenant who is actually had a pentacle strategy of focusing it first built around it for years. Even then what you are asking for might potentially might be better than consume conditions as the health restored would be protected by barrier while you have a second heal still optionally on legend swap. I really just cant see this buff you are suggesting being reasonably fair. At best lowering the cd of soothing stone a bit maybe by small portion for each of the 3 conditions removed would be acceptable to help make it a bit stronger or something but i mean giving rev an all clear WITH barrier ontop seems considerably unjustified.

    I understand what you are saying about being rewarded for using skills at the right time but that does not always justify the means for a skill to be buffed as people will still use it at the wrong time and generally the skill will just be stronger. You really didnt solve the problem of people who would just spam it when they want hp like any other heal but you made it stronger because you wanted something that rewards when used properly.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2020

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682

    It goes to show energy costs are nothing to achieve good damage and you fell for it anyway, you going to argue about something completely different about someone who's been doing this for years now? This is for the sake of consistency to show the energy left, I would have pre casted Inspiring Reinforcement before leaving Mallyx into a dazing strike to maximize my leap efficiency and not get stunlocked, you still don't get it do you? Shiro players still have the same weakness at a higher cost, obviously nobody should burst after a fresh swap, that's not the point of the discussion, rather than to achieve almost the same level of utility Mallyx has extreme amount of energy to spare and that's not counting the stunbreak cost also being the lowest, the damage is almost incomparable. Increasing energy cost would keep the class in check rather than leaving it to it's easy state of use. CtA is spammable, you don't have to keep denying it, because I can't use it every 1 second doesn't mean it's not spam, if I have to counter every situational argument to justify my approach, might as well not even try to reason, there's always a way to counter everything, there's no going around it as the skill is obviously bloated and people don't want to accept it.

    @ZDragon.3046 I would totally accept the idea of being OP if it wasn't for all the sustain, stability and Weakness nerf Jalis got since it's quite easy to delete his 30 second CD heal and the Mallyx one is only good under pressure, as Barrier is already a mechanic part of SotM which I'm glad they buffed but that's another sustain tool that also perform well only under pressure of many enemies.

    Most of Herald strategies are much easier IMO with shield and that's mostly where I used to base my comparison for why they decided to make it a 5 cleanse tool compared Soothing Stone, but it still deserves to have Barrier under the use of each condition removed, if it's not for all conditions at 586 under the PvE co-efficient then it should be the new PvP one at 879.

    Also the same could be said if you wanted to maximize any Revenant skill, which is mostly where the fun comes from, they all have some special criteria to fill in the moment of action to maximize results, Infuse Light can heal for a lot but technically whenever you got above 5.5k healing, it's technically already done it's necessary average, not to count Shiro's one because those can be evaded and blocked, rarely do the players max out the healing.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    @Lonewolf Kai.3682

    It goes to show energy costs are nothing to achieve good damage and you fell for it anyway, you going to argue about something completely different about someone who's been doing this for years now? This is for the sake of consistency to show the energy left, I would have pre casted Inspiring Reinforcement before leaving Mallyx into a dazing strike to maximize my leap efficiency and not get stunlocked, you still don't get it do you? Shiro players still have the same weakness at a higher cost, obviously nobody should burst after a fresh swap, that's not the point of the discussion, rather than to achieve almost the same level of utility Mallyx has extreme amount of energy to spare and that's not counting the stunbreak cost also being the lowest, the damage is almost incomparable. Increasing energy cost would keep the class in check rather than leaving it to it's easy state of use. CtA is spammable, you don't have to keep denying it, because I can't use it every 1 second doesn't mean it's not spam, if I have to counter every situational argument to justify my approach, might as well not even try to reason, there's always a way to counter everything, there's no going around it as the skill is obviously bloated and people don't want to accept it.

    @ZDragon.3046 I would totally accept the idea of being OP if it wasn't for all the sustain, stability and Weakness nerf Jalis got since it's quite easy to delete his 30 second CD heal and the Mallyx one is only good under pressure, as Barrier is already a mechanic part of SotM which I'm glad they buffed but that's another sustain tool that also perform well only under pressure of many enemies.

    This happens for all professions not just core rev with the jails heal its rather common i dont think thats an excuse to exactly say it should be made stronger so it totally negates any incoming pressure for a short time. Just because "well the herald heal kinda does that..." To be honest with you if you really really feel that strongly about it and need a heal that serves that purpose why not just run the herald line and legend. There is also no reason why you could not ruin jails along side it even if you just wanted a tough ish power build.

    Most of Herald strategies are much easier IMO with shield and that's mostly where I used to base my comparison for why they decided to make it a 5 cleanse tool compared Soothing Stone, but it still deserves to have Barrier under the use of each condition removed, if it's not for all conditions at 586 under the PvE co-efficient then it should be the new PvP one at 879.

    Also the same could be said if you wanted to maximize any Revenant skill, which is mostly where the fun comes from, they all have some special criteria to fill in the moment of action to maximize results, Infuse Light can heal for a lot but technically whenever you got above 5.5k healing, it's technically already done it's necessary average, not to count Shiro's one because those can be evaded and blocked, rarely do the players max out the healing.

    There are alot of assumptions being made here but the fact that shiro's heal is still an option puts you at more of an advantage if you consider soothing stone to have healed you for the average of what other professions heals heal for. The fact that you would still have a 2nd option regardless if it hits or not gives you and advantage for bonus healing.

    As for maximizing skill does every skill "need" to be designed that way? Its certainly worth asking for those who just want a standard skill as a opposed to a skill that only seems good when maximized. Infuse light already has that bit as timing it wrong results in no healing or very little healing, Shiro's heal requires you to be able to hit the target, and Mallyx's heal scales based on conditions on the player, Ventari requires tablet management and is super risky. Perhaps Jails is the one heal that should be a standard fixed staple where that that concern is not present. I will admit it was one of the reason I actually like the jails heal because its stable. You can count on it to do a specific value every time without extra actions or setup.

    Does soothing stone need barrier, not really
    Would it be a nice addon, sure it would

    Like i said i understand what you are trying to say but it does not always mean a hard buff to the skill is justified. I would love to be able to consume all the stacks on vamp signet active on my marked target but im not gonna ask for a buff that lets me do that because i could maximize healing which would be broken in some aspect im sure.... (much like asking for a heal that clears all condi and slaps a ton of barrier over top) but sometimes asking for certain things are just not justifiable in the moment. In this moment i dont think the buff is necessary personally. IF anet ups damage a bit to push us farther out of the bunker meta then maybe.

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2020

    @Shao.7236 said:
    @Lonewolf Kai.3682

    It goes to show energy costs are nothing to achieve good damage and you fell for it anyway, you going to argue about something completely different about someone who's been doing this for years now? This is for the sake of consistency to show the energy left, I would have pre casted Inspiring Reinforcement before leaving Mallyx into a dazing strike to maximize my leap efficiency and not get stunlocked, you still don't get it do you? Shiro players still have the same weakness at a higher cost, obviously nobody should burst after a fresh swap, that's not the point of the discussion, rather than to achieve almost the same level of utility Mallyx has extreme amount of energy to spare and that's not counting the stunbreak cost also being the lowest, the damage is almost incomparable. Increasing energy cost would keep the class in check rather than leaving it to it's easy state of use. CtA is spammable, you don't have to keep denying it, because I can't use it every 1 second doesn't mean it's not spam, if I have to counter every situational argument to justify my approach, might as well not even try to reason, there's always a way to counter everything, there's no going around it as the skill is obviously bloated and people don't want to accept it.

    @ZDragon.3046 I would totally accept the idea of being OP if it wasn't for all the sustain, stability and Weakness nerf Jalis got since it's quite easy to delete his 30 second CD heal and the Mallyx one is only good under pressure, as Barrier is already a mechanic part of SotM which I'm glad they buffed but that's another sustain tool that also perform well only under pressure of many enemies.

    Most of Herald strategies are much easier IMO with shield and that's mostly where I used to base my comparison for why they decided to make it a 5 cleanse tool compared Soothing Stone, but it still deserves to have Barrier under the use of each condition removed, if it's not for all conditions at 586 under the PvE co-efficient then it should be the new PvP one at 879.

    Also the same could be said if you wanted to maximize any Revenant skill, which is mostly where the fun comes from, they all have some special criteria to fill in the moment of action to maximize results, Infuse Light can heal for a lot but technically whenever you got above 5.5k healing, it's technically already done it's necessary average, not to count Shiro's one because those can be evaded and blocked, rarely do the players max out the healing.

    I “fell for it anyway”? Now I know you can’t be taken serious since you are just playing games in this discussion. You’re ignoring a lot of the facts presented to you, so therefore your cry about how CtA is overpowered can also be ignored.

    Also, I’ve been playing Revenant since before it’s release in the pre, pre, pre-alpha stage and was a key component in its development from a customer stand point, so don’t try to spin a “I’ have more experience than you, nya nya” comment on me. Because I can assure you, you don’t.

  • Mogwai.4015Mogwai.4015 Member ✭✭✭

    With sustain getting nerfed across the board, I feel like both Mallyx's and Jalis' heals are at a really good spot. I personally don't think either need any adjustments. It feels a bit more relevant now to have two heals.

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mogwai.4015 said:
    With sustain getting nerfed across the board, I feel like both Mallyx's and Jalis' heals are at a really good spot. I personally don't think either need any adjustments. It feels a bit more relevant now to have two heals.

    Jalis is good. Mallyx is just ok.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2020

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    @Lonewolf Kai.3682

    It goes to show energy costs are nothing to achieve good damage and you fell for it anyway, you going to argue about something completely different about someone who's been doing this for years now? This is for the sake of consistency to show the energy left, I would have pre casted Inspiring Reinforcement before leaving Mallyx into a dazing strike to maximize my leap efficiency and not get stunlocked, you still don't get it do you? Shiro players still have the same weakness at a higher cost, obviously nobody should burst after a fresh swap, that's not the point of the discussion, rather than to achieve almost the same level of utility Mallyx has extreme amount of energy to spare and that's not counting the stunbreak cost also being the lowest, the damage is almost incomparable. Increasing energy cost would keep the class in check rather than leaving it to it's easy state of use. CtA is spammable, you don't have to keep denying it, because I can't use it every 1 second doesn't mean it's not spam, if I have to counter every situational argument to justify my approach, might as well not even try to reason, there's always a way to counter everything, there's no going around it as the skill is obviously bloated and people don't want to accept it.

    @ZDragon.3046 I would totally accept the idea of being OP if it wasn't for all the sustain, stability and Weakness nerf Jalis got since it's quite easy to delete his 30 second CD heal and the Mallyx one is only good under pressure, as Barrier is already a mechanic part of SotM which I'm glad they buffed but that's another sustain tool that also perform well only under pressure of many enemies.

    Most of Herald strategies are much easier IMO with shield and that's mostly where I used to base my comparison for why they decided to make it a 5 cleanse tool compared Soothing Stone, but it still deserves to have Barrier under the use of each condition removed, if it's not for all conditions at 586 under the PvE co-efficient then it should be the new PvP one at 879.

    Also the same could be said if you wanted to maximize any Revenant skill, which is mostly where the fun comes from, they all have some special criteria to fill in the moment of action to maximize results, Infuse Light can heal for a lot but technically whenever you got above 5.5k healing, it's technically already done it's necessary average, not to count Shiro's one because those can be evaded and blocked, rarely do the players max out the healing.

    I “fell for it anyway”? Now I know you can’t be taken serious since you are just playing games in this discussion. You’re ignoring a lot of the facts presented to you, so therefore your cry about how CtA is overpowered can also be ignored.

    Also, I’ve been playing Revenant since before it’s release in the pre, pre, pre-alpha stage and was a key component in its development from a customer stand point, so don’t try to spin a “I’ have more experience than you, nya nya” comment on me. Because I can assure you, you don’t.

    Crying about my skills being overpowered, that's a new one. Let's just kill the whole legend already. Edit: "You’re ignoring a lot of the facts presented to you" so are you, in fact you're not considering anything but the skill in a vacuum, irrelevant statements. The assumption that you would think I'd be jumping in without safety measures says so to me.

    Jalis is good. Mallyx is just ok.

    Mallyx is the 3rd best heal as it can heal up to 10k easily in condi spam. It sits above Jalis for always having it's own Resistance ICD. Something that nobody seems to be aware of either.

    @Mogwai.4015 said:
    With sustain getting nerfed across the board, I feel like both Mallyx's and Jalis' heals are at a really good spot. I personally don't think either need any adjustments. It feels a bit more relevant now to have two heals.

    With Stability no longer reducing damage, forcing more upkeep in the process of making the heal be worth anything is rough. 75% of the time whenever it's used it's already gone with one simple autoattack from a zerk build in the current meta, it's not like barrier is permanent nor has Jalis the ability to make it worthwhile as much currently, it would surely make the cleanse be worth investing into more rather than losing more HP for trying to maximize it's efficiency, Mallyx in combo is the only one that can currently.

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    @Lonewolf Kai.3682

    It goes to show energy costs are nothing to achieve good damage and you fell for it anyway, you going to argue about something completely different about someone who's been doing this for years now? This is for the sake of consistency to show the energy left, I would have pre casted Inspiring Reinforcement before leaving Mallyx into a dazing strike to maximize my leap efficiency and not get stunlocked, you still don't get it do you? Shiro players still have the same weakness at a higher cost, obviously nobody should burst after a fresh swap, that's not the point of the discussion, rather than to achieve almost the same level of utility Mallyx has extreme amount of energy to spare and that's not counting the stunbreak cost also being the lowest, the damage is almost incomparable. Increasing energy cost would keep the class in check rather than leaving it to it's easy state of use. CtA is spammable, you don't have to keep denying it, because I can't use it every 1 second doesn't mean it's not spam, if I have to counter every situational argument to justify my approach, might as well not even try to reason, there's always a way to counter everything, there's no going around it as the skill is obviously bloated and people don't want to accept it.

    @ZDragon.3046 I would totally accept the idea of being OP if it wasn't for all the sustain, stability and Weakness nerf Jalis got since it's quite easy to delete his 30 second CD heal and the Mallyx one is only good under pressure, as Barrier is already a mechanic part of SotM which I'm glad they buffed but that's another sustain tool that also perform well only under pressure of many enemies.

    Most of Herald strategies are much easier IMO with shield and that's mostly where I used to base my comparison for why they decided to make it a 5 cleanse tool compared Soothing Stone, but it still deserves to have Barrier under the use of each condition removed, if it's not for all conditions at 586 under the PvE co-efficient then it should be the new PvP one at 879.

    Also the same could be said if you wanted to maximize any Revenant skill, which is mostly where the fun comes from, they all have some special criteria to fill in the moment of action to maximize results, Infuse Light can heal for a lot but technically whenever you got above 5.5k healing, it's technically already done it's necessary average, not to count Shiro's one because those can be evaded and blocked, rarely do the players max out the healing.

    I “fell for it anyway”? Now I know you can’t be taken serious since you are just playing games in this discussion. You’re ignoring a lot of the facts presented to you, so therefore your cry about how CtA is overpowered can also be ignored.

    Also, I’ve been playing Revenant since before it’s release in the pre, pre, pre-alpha stage and was a key component in its development from a customer stand point, so don’t try to spin a “I’ have more experience than you, nya nya” comment on me. Because I can assure you, you don’t.

    Crying about my skills being overpowered, that's a new one. Let's just kill the whole legend already. Edit: "You’re ignoring a lot of the facts presented to you" so are you, in fact you're not considering anything but the skill in a vacuum, irrelevant statements. The assumption that you would think I'd be jumping in without safety measures says so to me.

    Jalis is good. Mallyx is just ok.

    Mallyx is the 3rd best heal as it can heal up to 10k easily in condi spam. It sits above Jalis for always having it's own Resistance ICD. Something that nobody seems to be aware of either.

    @Mogwai.4015 said:
    With sustain getting nerfed across the board, I feel like both Mallyx's and Jalis' heals are at a really good spot. I personally don't think either need any adjustments. It feels a bit more relevant now to have two heals.

    With Stability no longer reducing damage, forcing more upkeep in the process of making the heal be worth anything is rough. 75% of the time whenever it's used it's already gone with one simple autoattack from a zerk build in the current meta, it's not like barrier is permanent nor has Jalis the ability to make it worthwhile as much currently, it would surely make the cleanse be worth investing into more rather than losing more HP for trying to maximize it's efficiency, Mallyx in combo is the only one that can currently.

    Incorrect, I described to you several times what would happen if to you if “spam” your skills.

    Mallyx’s heal is situational. In this current meta, it looks good. However, Jalis’s heal is guaranteed.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 4, 2020

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    @Lonewolf Kai.3682

    It goes to show energy costs are nothing to achieve good damage and you fell for it anyway, you going to argue about something completely different about someone who's been doing this for years now? This is for the sake of consistency to show the energy left, I would have pre casted Inspiring Reinforcement before leaving Mallyx into a dazing strike to maximize my leap efficiency and not get stunlocked, you still don't get it do you? Shiro players still have the same weakness at a higher cost, obviously nobody should burst after a fresh swap, that's not the point of the discussion, rather than to achieve almost the same level of utility Mallyx has extreme amount of energy to spare and that's not counting the stunbreak cost also being the lowest, the damage is almost incomparable. Increasing energy cost would keep the class in check rather than leaving it to it's easy state of use. CtA is spammable, you don't have to keep denying it, because I can't use it every 1 second doesn't mean it's not spam, if I have to counter every situational argument to justify my approach, might as well not even try to reason, there's always a way to counter everything, there's no going around it as the skill is obviously bloated and people don't want to accept it.

    @ZDragon.3046 I would totally accept the idea of being OP if it wasn't for all the sustain, stability and Weakness nerf Jalis got since it's quite easy to delete his 30 second CD heal and the Mallyx one is only good under pressure, as Barrier is already a mechanic part of SotM which I'm glad they buffed but that's another sustain tool that also perform well only under pressure of many enemies.

    Most of Herald strategies are much easier IMO with shield and that's mostly where I used to base my comparison for why they decided to make it a 5 cleanse tool compared Soothing Stone, but it still deserves to have Barrier under the use of each condition removed, if it's not for all conditions at 586 under the PvE co-efficient then it should be the new PvP one at 879.

    Also the same could be said if you wanted to maximize any Revenant skill, which is mostly where the fun comes from, they all have some special criteria to fill in the moment of action to maximize results, Infuse Light can heal for a lot but technically whenever you got above 5.5k healing, it's technically already done it's necessary average, not to count Shiro's one because those can be evaded and blocked, rarely do the players max out the healing.

    I “fell for it anyway”? Now I know you can’t be taken serious since you are just playing games in this discussion. You’re ignoring a lot of the facts presented to you, so therefore your cry about how CtA is overpowered can also be ignored.

    Also, I’ve been playing Revenant since before it’s release in the pre, pre, pre-alpha stage and was a key component in its development from a customer stand point, so don’t try to spin a “I’ have more experience than you, nya nya” comment on me. Because I can assure you, you don’t.

    Crying about my skills being overpowered, that's a new one. Let's just kill the whole legend already. Edit: "You’re ignoring a lot of the facts presented to you" so are you, in fact you're not considering anything but the skill in a vacuum, irrelevant statements. The assumption that you would think I'd be jumping in without safety measures says so to me.

    Jalis is good. Mallyx is just ok.

    Mallyx is the 3rd best heal as it can heal up to 10k easily in condi spam. It sits above Jalis for always having it's own Resistance ICD. Something that nobody seems to be aware of either.

    @Mogwai.4015 said:
    With sustain getting nerfed across the board, I feel like both Mallyx's and Jalis' heals are at a really good spot. I personally don't think either need any adjustments. It feels a bit more relevant now to have two heals.

    With Stability no longer reducing damage, forcing more upkeep in the process of making the heal be worth anything is rough. 75% of the time whenever it's used it's already gone with one simple autoattack from a zerk build in the current meta, it's not like barrier is permanent nor has Jalis the ability to make it worthwhile as much currently, it would surely make the cleanse be worth investing into more rather than losing more HP for trying to maximize it's efficiency, Mallyx in combo is the only one that can currently.

    Incorrect, I described to you several times what would happen if to you if “spam” your skills.

    Mallyx’s heal is situational. In this current meta, it looks good. However, Jalis’s heal is guaranteed.

    Just fought a FB/Condi Herald duo, guess what he was doing? Always trying to setup with CtA obviously, they lost because of stability even with two transfers to work with. It's clear that the problem is the lack of risk involved with CtA, the skill doesn't have enough value and it's making everyone think that Herald Condi is OP, these people aren't bad either but Herald Condi is overrated and in need of proper tuning so that this madness stops.

    Also Mallyx is more or less situational with 2 conditions is enough to even with Jalis, it's already superior in other regards as it allows great synergy for transfers. If it wasn't for Spirit Boon, playing with Jalis would be much much much harder.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This update is great, THANK YOU ANET FOR LISTENING TO THE FEEDBACK! Doesn't matter if you hit the whole entire class, it's the only way people will get the point.