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Cantha and Elder Dragons, fun theory for the future.

Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

Well this one just came to me.

But I was thinking about how we now know that Elder Dragons are clearly more intelligent and complex than originally thought, and Bangar has essentially created an Army of Charr and alligned himself with Jormag as it's new Champion.. largely out of fear of Aurine and us and the power we wield as a force.

This also got me thinking about Jormags threat on the the horizon speech and how it seems to be trying to get as many allies as possible to secure it's place in this changing world.. going so far as to propose an alliance with another Elder Dragon which as far as we know is something that has never happened before.

What if this new changing world is Elder Dragons after witnessing the death of 3 of their own kind now recognize the power and the threat the mortal races present to them and are changing their ways from simply wiping out the not so feeble ants and are now seeking to form alliances with them, partly for their own protection and preservation but also to grow their forces as large and as powerful as they can.. as quickly as they can.

What if Bangar isnt the only one who has figured out that having his own Elder Dragon is the future now.
What if the Canthans are also aware of Aurine.. an Elder Dragon in the "service" of a foreign power that could one day be a threat to their empire.. a foreign power which has already "invaded" Elona and destroyed it's leader and it's Elder Dragon..
What if the Tyrians decide to "invade" Cantha too..
Perhaps the Canthan Empire needs an Elder Dragon of it's own to even the odds.. a deterrent or Mutually assured Destruction as it were.. and it just so happens there is one swimming around in the ocean somewhere.

And what of Primordus.. well he's been at odds with a certain race for a long time now, a race that another subterranean race has a deep resentment for and seeks to eradicate for past crimes.
What if the Dredge realize they could finally achieve this goal.. if they had their own Elder Dragon too?

What if that threat on the horizon isn't just another Elder Dragon.. the sea dragon as some predict and hope it is.

What if that threat is an Elder Dragon with an entire Canthan Empire! at it's beck and call.. and it has no intention of waiting for another to make the first move.

Just a fun little thought I had for a interesting and different way to bring Cantha into the game than just we wants it so gives please :)
A massive Canthan invasion force with an Elder Dragon leading it.. that would a fun story to go into ^^

Comments

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2020

    I find it very unlikely.

    It makes sense Jormag would pull this kind of stunt, given that its always been somewhat manipulative and communicative, but Primordus has shown literally zero cares about mortals. Primi doesn't even seem to care about corrupting mortal races, instead just making its own minions out of rock and lava. I don't see him trying the same thing Jormag is trying now.

    I don't see Bubbles doing it with Cantha either.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Haha I know it very likely won't happen.
    Just though it was a fun idea to have an elder dragon with an empire behind it :) then have that empire invade the continent giving us a kind of world war like conflict which we've not experienced in this game before.

    Would be something that could force the races into a stronger union as well as giving us a bridge into a Canthan story ark but it would be more like we're hostile invaders to some extent forming alliances with rebe factions and fighting the established government/empire there.
    It could be a fun story to experience but im with ya, I don't see it happening either lol

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    To be fair, we know exactly nothing about Bubbles' character. That's a blank slate for the devs to fill in whatever manner best serves the story they want to tell. There's more than enough space for some form of cooperation with Cantha, be it subjugation, manipulation, or bound as the Emperor's pet superweapon.

    I think the greater hurdle right now is that Cantha is a bit... ah... ambitious for the current scope of the Saga structure, but maybe someday down the road.

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I can't see how Cantha would have word of Tyrian affairs when the DSD's minions are supposedly wiping out the few ships they try to send. Last word they could have gotten would be from the Zephyrites before they crashed. So at best, Cantha knows Zhaitan is dead.

    But the lore on the DSD suggests that it lies southwest, rather than due south like Cantha, so I doubt the DSD is even tied to Cantha - the only way it will be, is if ArenaNet decides to move it to Cantha.

    As to Cantha allying with an Elder Dragon - besides the fact it'd just be a rerun plot, Primordus is definitely not the type to make an alliance. For DSD to do so is unclear, it's too enigmatic, but repetitious plots aren't exactly ANet's thing - even if they skirt the similarities.

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  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't think its a terrible idea, despite the issues Konig points out its probably the most logical potential intro to Cantha I've seen to date. There are probably workarounds to allow the Canthan Empire the knowledge of whats happening in Tyria, but it'd be the possible reused concept that would stymie this idea, though that kinda depends on how the current LS/Saga goes. I could see that they could be different enough to get away with, but if not a different approach would be necessary.
    Emphasis on necessary, because kitten I want Cantha and I want it BAD.

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  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah it's all fair counter's ^^

    For it to work, the remaining dragons would need to in some way play by these new world rules.
    Primordus definitely doesn't seem the type to ally with mortals and Konig is right in that it doesn't look likely he would do this either.
    That said we've never actually spoken to it or heard of anyone who has either so we've only got it's behaviour to go on there and until recently Jormag was very much the same too albiet with notable differences and it's only now in the Icebrood Saga that we're really getting up close and personal understanding of just what Jormag is like.

    To get to the SeaDragon Empire concept I had to throw Primordus in the mix in some way, and admittedly with little thought to justify reusing the concept of Mortals seeking their own Elder Dragon.
    In reality it's kind of like a nuclear arms race.. everyone is aiming to have that super weapon to secure their power not just standing by and allowing one nation to do so and gain an upper hand on the rest of the world etc
    That's pretty much what this was all based on.. we have Aurine and the fear of us and her is what drove Bangar to persue Jormag.. it's completely rational for other nations, races etc in this world to think along the same lines about this, specially now that there are only 4 of them left and possibly 2 of them have already found their allies.

    In a way it's kinda more unrealistic if nobody tries to snatch up the other 2.
    This could be done very differently though, to use the Dredge again they could go after Primordus thinking it would make them a world power.. and that could end up leading to a twist where their entire race was almost wiped out instead.
    Or perhaps the Inquest could find a way to enslave Primordus via technology, they have been studying these things for a long time after all.
    So there are different ways and scenarios that could go down with Primordus, out of the ones i've mentioned I quite like the idea of the Dredge nearly wiping themselves out via stupidity lol
    From that scenario we could even see them forced to join forces with the Stone Dwarfs and set up a very different future for their race.

    But the question of Cantha does somewhat depend on how much they know about the activities on Tyria, We havent been in the loop with them in a long time that much we do know but that works both ways too.
    We have little to no idea what Cantha has been upto since it was cut off from Tyria.. and there is a lot of room there to write in backstory to explain how they've kept an eye on this Elder Dragon situation despite being on a different continent, I highly doubt the Awakening and rise of 6 Elder Dragons, The deaths of 3 of them and the ascention of a new one will have gone completely unnoticed by governments/empires/powers etc around the world, Specially when you factor in all the chaos in the mists that Kralkatorrik caused and the reawakening of portals to the mists such as the Mouth of Torment and Underworld etc
    The Mists is very much a global thing known to all cultures on Tyria and Canthans definitely have their own lore and practices for the Mists so I highly doubt they have not been effected by events in Tyria, they may have even found a way to Tyria through the mists and have used it to place spies through the various nations governments.

    It's just some fun to think about these things though ^^
    I doubt events will play out anything like what us fans have thought up lol

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭

    It would be logical for Kralkatorrik's damage to the Mists be noticed by the Canthan Empire, how could they not be aware of such a near apocalyptic event unless the Ritualist profession and the other related Canthan connections to the Mists are lost to the Empire.

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  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I get that a lot 😂

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    For it to work, the remaining dragons would need to in some way play by these new world rules.
    Primordus definitely doesn't seem the type to ally with mortals and Konig is right in that it doesn't look likely he would do this either.
    That said we've never actually spoken to it or heard of anyone who has either so we've only got it's behaviour to go on there and until recently Jormag was very much the same too albiet with notable differences and it's only now in the Icebrood Saga that we're really getting up close and personal understanding of just what Jormag is like.

    I would disagree about Jormag being similar to Primordus in terms of lack of communication (if anything, Jormag was the most communicative originally), and also say that the very fact that there's no communication between destroyers and mortals is a clear indication of intent - risen, mordrem, especially icebrood, and even branded do all communicate to varying degrees.

    To get to the SeaDragon Empire concept I had to throw Primordus in the mix in some way, and admittedly with little thought to justify reusing the concept of Mortals seeking their own Elder Dragon.
    In reality it's kind of like a nuclear arms race.. everyone is aiming to have that super weapon to secure their power not just standing by and allowing one nation to do so and gain an upper hand on the rest of the world etc
    That's pretty much what this was all based on.. we have Aurine and the fear of us and her is what drove Bangar to persue Jormag.. it's completely rational for other nations, races etc in this world to think along the same lines about this, specially now that there are only 4 of them left and possibly 2 of them have already found their allies.

    The thing is, with Cantha's long-standing human-superiority xenophobia established by the Ministry of Purity, if they were to join the nuclear arms race like Bangar (which I doubt for reasons below), then they're far more likely to go about creating an Elder Dragon than trying to control an existing one. Whether this is done in the form of finding and raising a scion, or going a more Inquest route of literally making an entity on par to Elder Dragons from non-ED means (for example, using Luxon Leviathan, modified by more modern magitech, and empowered by the Forever Trees / leftover god magic to become psuedo-immortal). Thus creating a Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla moment.

    Though this is a heavy parallel to the Iron Forgeman of Sorrow's Embrace as well. Personally, I'd rather see Kuda do something along with this, creating an Iron Forgeman 3.0 and taking on Primordus, then turning it into a Mecha-Ghidorah situation. It's a nice "nuclear arms race" concept that fits the existing ideology and could be reasonable, if Iron Forgeman 3.0 used some insane ice magic (like the Sanguinary Blade) as a power source.

    As for why I doubt Cantha would enter a nuclear arms race like Bangar, primarily because unlike Bangar, the Canthans are not a military culture, driven by conquest and knowing nothing but war - whereas that is exactly the charr, and especially Bangar's perspective. Bangar is entering this "nuclear arms race" because he views that the charr cannot exist without an enemy, and views the Pact as being forces supporting humanity - the charr's greatest enemy. In other words, he doesn't see Aurene as merely "a weapon another force has", he views her as "a weapon my enemy has". Canthans shouldn't have this kind of ideology, even with their xenophobia - they shouldn't see Aurene as "a weapon my enemy, other races and nationalities, have" but "an entity who was created by people who are inferior to us".

    At best, to me, it'd be logical to see it as a reason for why Canthans could have their own Elder Dragon, not should. And I think they're smart and uninfluenced enough to try to make one, rather than break one into servitude (hence aforementioned Mechagodzilla comparison).

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  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭

    I could live with a Mechagodzilla if it got us to Cantha.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    For it to work, the remaining dragons would need to in some way play by these new world rules.
    Primordus definitely doesn't seem the type to ally with mortals and Konig is right in that it doesn't look likely he would do this either.
    That said we've never actually spoken to it or heard of anyone who has either so we've only got it's behaviour to go on there and until recently Jormag was very much the same too albiet with notable differences and it's only now in the Icebrood Saga that we're really getting up close and personal understanding of just what Jormag is like.

    I would disagree about Jormag being similar to Primordus in terms of lack of communication (if anything, Jormag was the most communicative originally), and also say that the very fact that there's no communication between destroyers and mortals is a clear indication of intent - risen, mordrem, especially icebrood, and even branded do all communicate to varying degrees.

    Ahh I was referring more to that despite the communication thing both Primordus and Jormag destroy and kill as they feel like it and both have been well known for their evil behaviour in general.
    Jormag speaking to us and talking of alliances etc is far less convincing because of it's known past behaviour, it's why we know not to trust a word that it says.

    However Jormag speaking to us now does give us a different perspective on the dragon as a more complex being which until recently we more or less had the mindset that they were all evil destructive beasts.
    Primordus being the only one left that we still consider this way because of it's activity, behaviour and silence.. DSD being a total enigma we know nothing about.
    As soon as it talks to us.. that is if it talks to us at all, then that will give it more personality than just the evil beast we see it as atm.

    To get to the SeaDragon Empire concept I had to throw Primordus in the mix in some way, and admittedly with little thought to justify reusing the concept of Mortals seeking their own Elder Dragon.
    In reality it's kind of like a nuclear arms race.. everyone is aiming to have that super weapon to secure their power not just standing by and allowing one nation to do so and gain an upper hand on the rest of the world etc
    That's pretty much what this was all based on.. we have Aurine and the fear of us and her is what drove Bangar to persue Jormag.. it's completely rational for other nations, races etc in this world to think along the same lines about this, specially now that there are only 4 of them left and possibly 2 of them have already found their allies.

    The thing is, with Cantha's long-standing human-superiority xenophobia established by the Ministry of Purity, if they were to join the nuclear arms race like Bangar (which I doubt for reasons below), then they're far more likely to go about creating an Elder Dragon than trying to control an existing one. Whether this is done in the form of finding and raising a scion, or going a more Inquest route of literally making an entity on par to Elder Dragons from non-ED means (for example, using Luxon Leviathan, modified by more modern magitech, and empowered by the Forever Trees / leftover god magic to become psuedo-immortal). Thus creating a Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla moment.

    Though this is a heavy parallel to the Iron Forgeman of Sorrow's Embrace as well. Personally, I'd rather see Kuda do something along with this, creating an Iron Forgeman 3.0 and taking on Primordus, then turning it into a Mecha-Ghidorah situation. It's a nice "nuclear arms race" concept that fits the existing ideology and could be reasonable, if Iron Forgeman 3.0 used some insane ice magic (like the Sanguinary Blade) as a power source.

    As for why I doubt Cantha would enter a nuclear arms race like Bangar, primarily because unlike Bangar, the Canthans are not a military culture, driven by conquest and knowing nothing but war - whereas that is exactly the charr, and especially Bangar's perspective. Bangar is entering this "nuclear arms race" because he views that the charr cannot exist without an enemy, and views the Pact as being forces supporting humanity - the charr's greatest enemy. In other words, he doesn't see Aurene as merely "a weapon another force has", he views her as "a weapon my enemy has". Canthans shouldn't have this kind of ideology, even with their xenophobia - they shouldn't see Aurene as "a weapon my enemy, other races and nationalities, have" but "an entity who was created by people who are inferior to us".

    At best, to me, it'd be logical to see it as a reason for why Canthans could have their own Elder Dragon, not should. And I think they're smart and uninfluenced enough to try to make one, rather than break one into servitude (hence aforementioned Mechagodzilla comparison).

    That's a very fair point.
    Also a very good idea to bring Cantha into the game too, kudos man.
    I also like the idea of them trying to create their own Elder Dragon as well.. a great perversion of one in a way.. which kinda throws back to Gw1 and the afflicted in some ways too, Not so much the afrtificial element but the perversion one.. Afflicted being mutated and grotesque forms of what were once people.

    The inquest have experimented with dragon minions and magic trying to create bioweapons like that as well.
    They could introduce this story by investigating recent sabotage and thefts of inquest and Asuran research, specifically on the Dragons as well as abductions of prized scientists who have seemingly vanished into thin air (to be used as slave labour by the Empire to create this new weapon).
    As a side note this gives Zojja a good reason to come back too which would delight a lot of fans I expect, regardless of whether she had a new voice actor or not.

    If the Canthans are exploiting the mists to get back and fore into Tyria it could be a fun way to amp up the old Assassin class that originates from there, seperating it from the playable thief variant we get to use in Gw2.
    The Empire could have a whole network of highly trained Assasins and spies working through the mists and protecting the Empires agenda/investments.

    There's a lot of ways Anet could make this work well and and I'd be all for a story like this about some artificial Elder Dragon monstrosity.
    Could even go wrong (as it likely would if you've ever played a Resident Evil game) and end up corrupting and spreading through Cantha like a plague.. though that might be hitting a bit too close to the Gw1 story lol
    But it's kinda of what Elder Dragons do so it wouldn't be that much of a stretch, it could certainly be an interesting and disturbing design for a dragon too.
    In my mind I picture a Dragon that eventually becomes unstable and mutates into a mass blob of pretty much anything it can absorb into itself.
    Cantha could become a very dark, horror/nightmare like place ^^
    I doubt everyone would be happy with that though haha

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    For it to work, the remaining dragons would need to in some way play by these new world rules.
    Primordus definitely doesn't seem the type to ally with mortals and Konig is right in that it doesn't look likely he would do this either.
    That said we've never actually spoken to it or heard of anyone who has either so we've only got it's behaviour to go on there and until recently Jormag was very much the same too albiet with notable differences and it's only now in the Icebrood Saga that we're really getting up close and personal understanding of just what Jormag is like.

    I would disagree about Jormag being similar to Primordus in terms of lack of communication (if anything, Jormag was the most communicative originally), and also say that the very fact that there's no communication between destroyers and mortals is a clear indication of intent - risen, mordrem, especially icebrood, and even branded do all communicate to varying degrees.

    Ahh I was referring more to that despite the communication thing both Primordus and Jormag destroy and kill as they feel like it and both have been well known for their evil behaviour in general.

    Jormag speaking to us and talking of alliances etc is far less convincing because of it's known past behaviour, it's why we know not to trust a word that it says.

    However Jormag speaking to us now does give us a different perspective on the dragon as a more complex being which until recently we more or less had the mindset that they were all evil destructive beasts.
    Primordus being the only one left that we still consider this way because of it's activity, behaviour and silence.. DSD being a total enigma we know nothing about.

    As soon as it talks to us.. that is if it talks to us at all, then that will give it more personality than just the evil beast we see it as atm.

    Hmm, I would disagree. By the core game, we already knew that Jormag preferred converts rather than slaves, and had whispering powers to persuade folks to their side through. Similarly, we had enough interactions with risen to see Zhaitan as more than just some beast of destruction, with the risen's constant talk of eternal life, reunion with lost loves, etc. under Zhaitan. Kralkatorrik also left impressions from Edge of Destiny of being a beast of greed, wanting to have and consume all and destroy the rest (which is reiterated via Kralkatorrik's Torment in S4's finale). And when Mordremoth showed up in Season 2, we immediately got talk about how Mordremoth views the world itself (albeit not much).

    Only Primordus has remained a speechless, kill all things (not even corrupt!) Elder Dragon before confrontation.

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  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    ...it could be a fun way to amp up the old Assassin class that originates from there, seperating it from the playable thief variant we get to use in Gw2.

    This I have to admit I wouldn't be a fan of, I'd rather the Canthan Assassin arts added back too the Thief class in whatever way, I've always thought the bit of Thief lore Anet put out saying that they were unrelated to the Assassin profession was dumb, why wouldn't the Thief be the Tyrian take on Assassins? Its not like they didn't explicitly do something fairly similar to Guardians.

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  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Ahh I was referring more to that despite the communication thing both Primordus and Jormag destroy and kill as they feel like it and both have been well known for their evil behaviour in general.
    Jormag speaking to us and talking of alliances etc is far less convincing because of it's known past behaviour, it's why we know not to trust a word that it says.

    I wouldn't say we can't trust anything it says

    I see no reason to doubt that
    A. It has seen a time from before the cycles of Elder Dragons consuming all
    B. It knows something about the Mists, the Kodan, and the Norn, that could possibly be very damaging
    C. That it does, in its own twisted way, want to see the cycle ended.
    Much like zhaitan wanted to end the loss caused by death.... by making everyone undead, Jormag likely seeks to "save" the world by freezing it over so nothing ends. As it said at the end of Whisper in the Dark "Ice fortifies, ice protects"

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Personally, I've generally considered that a likely reason to go to Cantha would be the "Aurene can't do the job alone" angle. She's replaced Kralkatorrik, and in the process she's possibly absorbed more power than Kralkatorrik ever did (although she's not hoarding it in the same way), but from what we've been shown, the world's balance is still at its most stable with six Elder Dragons (or equivalents) than four. It can just about survive on four, maybe even three, but if it ever drops to two... boom.

    Which is why we might, at some stage, see Jormag's offers seriously considered. It's actions are speaking louder than its words, to be sure, but at some stage, the decision might well be made that accepting Jormag's offer is still less risky than killing it when we don't have a suitable scion ready. If a truce with Jormag can be reached - and there's a trend in Guild Wars of making alliances of convenience even if they'll probably bite you later on - then the Pact would probably feel the need to continue to keep an eye on the dragon, but it might be better than the alternative.

    This need for more scions, however, provides a reason to go to Cantha. Kuunavang and even Albax could both be considered to be possible candidates who have some degree of affiliation with mortals. Similar to Path of Fire, this could allow for a storyline which is part of the broader Elder Dragon picture, but could have a primary antagonist who is not an Elder Dragon.

    Is this where I mention I consulted on some of that? :p

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Eh why not.
    At this point they could stand to just throw the entire world into chaos for the fun of it before shutting the game down.

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  • @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Personally, I've generally considered that a likely reason to go to Cantha would be the "Aurene can't do the job alone" angle. She's replaced Kralkatorrik, and in the process she's possibly absorbed more power than Kralkatorrik ever did (although she's not hoarding it in the same way), but from what we've been shown, the world's balance is still at its most stable with six Elder Dragons (or equivalents) than four. It can just about survive on four, maybe even three, but if it ever drops to two... boom.

    Which is why we might, at some stage, see Jormag's offers seriously considered. It's actions are speaking louder than its words, to be sure, but at some stage, the decision might well be made that accepting Jormag's offer is still less risky than killing it when we don't have a suitable scion ready. If a truce with Jormag can be reached - and there's a trend in Guild Wars of making alliances of convenience even if they'll probably bite you later on - then the Pact would probably feel the need to continue to keep an eye on the dragon, but it might be better than the alternative.

    This need for more scions, however, provides a reason to go to Cantha. Kuunavang and even Albax could both be considered to be possible candidates who have some degree of affiliation with mortals. Similar to Path of Fire, this could allow for a storyline which is part of the broader Elder Dragon picture, but could have a primary antagonist who is not an Elder Dragon.

    Is this where I mention I consulted on some of that? :p

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  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2020

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Personally, I've generally considered that a likely reason to go to Cantha would be the "Aurene can't do the job alone" angle. She's replaced Kralkatorrik, and in the process she's possibly absorbed more power than Kralkatorrik ever did (although she's not hoarding it in the same way), but from what we've been shown, the world's balance is still at its most stable with six Elder Dragons (or equivalents) than four. It can just about survive on four, maybe even three, but if it ever drops to two... boom.

    Which is why we might, at some stage, see Jormag's offers seriously considered. It's actions are speaking louder than its words, to be sure, but at some stage, the decision might well be made that accepting Jormag's offer is still less risky than killing it when we don't have a suitable scion ready. If a truce with Jormag can be reached - and there's a trend in Guild Wars of making alliances of convenience even if they'll probably bite you later on - then the Pact would probably feel the need to continue to keep an eye on the dragon, but it might be better than the alternative.

    This need for more scions, however, provides a reason to go to Cantha. Kuunavang and even Albax could both be considered to be possible candidates who have some degree of affiliation with mortals. Similar to Path of Fire, this could allow for a storyline which is part of the broader Elder Dragon picture, but could have a primary antagonist who is not an Elder Dragon.

    Ahh Kunni and Albax ^^ I'm glad others remember them as well.

    Some of my past theories on Canthan introduction included those as replacements for Elder Dragons as well.
    I always favoured the idea of the two of them replacing one Elder Dragon and creating a single new Elder Dragon that was 2 individual Dragons instead of just one giant one as we've come to expect.
    I still think this would be a cool concept to explore, and it would be pretty cool to have a Elder Dragon that can be physically in two places at the same time, not to mention the complicated situations that could occur if the two of them ever had a falling out or one of them was seriously injured.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    I wouldn't say we can't trust anything it says

    I see no reason to doubt that
    A. It has seen a time from before the cycles of Elder Dragons consuming all
    B. It knows something about the Mists, the Kodan, and the Norn, that could possibly be very damaging
    C. That it does, in its own twisted way, want to see the cycle ended.
    Much like zhaitan wanted to end the loss caused by death.... by making everyone undead, Jormag likely seeks to "save" the world by freezing it over so nothing ends. As it said at the end of Whisper in the Dark "Ice fortifies, ice protects"

    Jormag tends to lie with the truth so I would say we can't trust anything it says really.
    We may be able to get some bits of information out of it at times but there is always going to be that thought in the back of our heads wondering.. are we being manipulated?.. are we doing the right thing?.. is this what Jormag actually wanted us to do? etc

    It may have been around a long time and seen countless cycles but there is no way we can honestly take it's words in good faith.
    Everything it says is to be questioned, it's the dragon of persuasion after all, a very experienced liar and manipulator.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Is it just me or is anyone else tired of people trying to tie the DSD and cantha together? Both have SO MUCH going on by themselves, each could easily be 2+ expansions of content, rolling them together would be a disservice to all of it

    HARRY! DIDYA PUT YER NAME IN DA GOBLET OF FIYAH?!

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fenom.9457 said:
    Is it just me or is anyone else tired of people trying to tie the DSD and cantha together?

    I got tired of it back in 2014.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Fenom.9457 said:
    Is it just me or is anyone else tired of people trying to tie the DSD and cantha together? Both have SO MUCH going on by themselves, each could easily be 2+ expansions of content, rolling them together would be a disservice to all of it

    Its just you. There are a fair amount of logical reasons to tie the two together, the least of which being that both are allegedly in the same general area. But the major reason to tie them together is that any story that takes us to Cantha will include the Elder Dragons, even if its indirectly as was the case with Path of Fire. The story of GW2 is the fight against the EDs, anything else are just side stories and filler content, we will not be visiting other lands without the EDs being at least a part of the reason why. As such its logical to take into consideration the one dragon that hasn't directly effected mainland Tyria aside from its actions forcing the quaggan, krait, and karka northward. There is Drax's theory of acquiring another benign ED replacement from Cantha, but that but such a plotline isn't at all mutually exclusive to including the DSD. So, until someone comes up with a better idea, connecting the DSD to a return to Cantha remains the best option at this time.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    Its just you. There are a fair amount of logical reasons to tie the two together, the least of which being that both are allegedly in the same general area.

    Ignoring the fact I just said it isn't just him:

    The DSD is in the depths of the ocean. Suggested by the placement of quaggans, krait, and karka (namely their lack of appearance along the Elonian shore), to be southwest of Tyria.

    Cantha is above water. Due south of Tyria.

    I'm not sure how this is "allegedly in the same general area". Nothing in lore ever suggests the two are related, except for a very ambiguous line about Canthan sailors sporadically washing ashore. But that could have been attributed to Zhaitan for all we know, really.

    But the major reason to tie them together is that any story that takes us to Cantha will include the Elder Dragons, even if its indirectly as was the case with Path of Fire.

    And of course, this is only as true as ArenaNet wants it to be true.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    I find it very unlikely.

    It makes sense Jormag would pull this kind of stunt, given that its always been somewhat manipulative and communicative, but Primordus has shown literally zero cares about mortals. Primi doesn't even seem to care about corrupting mortal races, instead just making its own minions out of rock and lava. I don't see him trying the same thing Jormag is trying now.

    I don't see Bubbles doing it with Cantha either.

    I don't see Bubbles doing it with Canthans, but I can see Canthans worshipping the dragon. Due to Jade Sea and seclusion from Tyria and Elona, they've always had a fairly intimate connection with the sea. Mind you, it'd be interesting to see what's the connection saltspray dragons (see GW1) have with the elder dragons, if any.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    Its just you. There are a fair amount of logical reasons to tie the two together, the least of which being that both are allegedly in the same general area.

    Ignoring the fact I just said it isn't just him:

    The DSD is in the depths of the ocean. Suggested by the placement of quaggans, krait, and karka (namely their lack of appearance along the Elonian shore), to be southwest of Tyria.

    Cantha is above water. Due south of Tyria.

    I'm not sure how this is "allegedly in the same general area". Nothing in lore ever suggests the two are related, except for a very ambiguous line about Canthan sailors sporadically washing ashore. But that could have been attributed to Zhaitan for all we know, really.

    But the major reason to tie them together is that any story that takes us to Cantha will include the Elder Dragons, even if its indirectly as was the case with Path of Fire.

    And of course, this is only as true as ArenaNet wants it to be true.

    First off, to be fair I didn't see your response until after I'd posted my own, so I wasn't ignoring it.

    As to the locations of Cantha and the DSD, the facts are that we don't know exactly where the DSD is and the EDs are known to move from place to place now and then. And I'll admit that I could be off base with this but it just makes sense to me that a Deep Sea Dragon would be more mobile. yeah, I'll admit that the phrase "same general area" wasn't the best choice of words, what I should have said is that out of all the Dragons the DSD is the most likely to be close enough to Cantha to be useful or relevant to the plot of a Canthan xpack/Living Story.

    Ok, so its technically possible that Anet could all collectively go full kitten and radically change the very nature of the overarching theme of GW2 and not have the ED's somehow be relevant to the plot of a Cantha xpak/LS, but I don't think even the most cynical here would think that would happen. I'm reasonably sure it was you that said that the overarching storyline of the EDs were the story of GW2 and that we'd probably never see a post-ED GW2 (Ok, maybe it was Drax or Aaron that said that, but my point still stands).

    And I dunno, if you or anyone else are genuinely that sick of the DSD and Cantha fan theories, maybe just don't read the threads explicitly about that, and if nothing else don't try and discourage us from discussing it.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2020

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    O.O Seriously!!

    I thought that was a prank at first but it's right on the home page!
    Confirming a new expansion out of nowhere and of course the "Feel the Winds of Change" comment, that's a straight up throwback to Gw1 and Cantha at the same time :D

    I am so kitten hyped right now ^^

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I still insist that the Solid Ocean fractal is just Bubbles' champion in Cantha. Whether it's a glimpse of the future of our current path and magic instability or an alternate reality, I don't know.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2020

    Guess we maybe dealing with Bubbles in Cantha after all :bleep_bloop:

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2020

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    I still insist that the Solid Ocean fractal is just Bubbles' champion in Cantha. Whether it's a glimpse of the future of our current path and magic instability or an alternate reality, I don't know.

    It very much looks the part doesnt it :)

    There is lore on it though, the Jade Maw is actually a Kraken which is a species known as far back as Gw1. (apparently these creatures were known to live in the oceans as far north as Elona as well)
    Granted Jade Maw is significantly bigger than any Kraken we ever saw in Gw1.. by a long shot but that could be more a design change between games rather than a specific size exclusively attributed to the Jade Maw.

    I wonder if with the Jade Sea retuning to normal over the last 250 years if we'll see a new giant Kraken world boss in this region of Cantha during the expansion.
    I see massive potential for this to happen if the Jade Sea isn't used for story/Elder Dragon purposes.
    Imagine fighting a Giant Kraken unbound from all that Jade and having multiple phases, one of which could be to defend Seige Turtles so they can barrage the Kraken with canonfire, stunning it so we could damage it.
    I would very much love for both Luxon and Kurzick regions to have their own unique world bosses in a Canthan expansion ^^
    Kraken is also one creature they already have a model for as well, or at least enough parts of one that they could put one together for a new world boss.
    Perhaps Kraken eyes will be a new/returning resource in the next expansion or maybe a very rare infusion drop from a Kraken world boss or something.
    Either way the Jade Sea is one location I cannot wait to revisit in GW2 ^^

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    I still insist that the Solid Ocean fractal is just Bubbles' champion in Cantha. Whether it's a glimpse of the future of our current path and magic instability or an alternate reality, I don't know.

    It very much looks the part doesnt it :)

    There is lore on it though, the Jade Maw is actually a Kraken which is a species known as far back as Gw1. (apparently these creatures were known to live in the oceans as far north as Elona as well)
    Granted Jade Maw is significantly bigger than any Kraken we ever saw in Gw1.. by a long shot but that could be more a design change between games rather than a specific size exclusively attributed to the Jade Maw.

    I wonder if with the Jade Sea retuning to normal over the last 250 years if we'll see a new giant Kraken world boss in this region of Cantha during the expansion.
    I see massive potential for this to happen if the Jade Sea isn't used for story/Elder Dragon purposes.
    Imagine fighting a Giant Kraken unbound from all that Jade and having multiple phases, one of which could be to defend Seige Turtles so they can barrage the Kraken with canonfire, stunning it so we could damage it.
    I would very much love for both Luxon and Kurzick regions to have their own unique world bosses in a Canthan expansion ^^
    Kraken is also one creature they already have a model for as well, or at least enough parts of one that they could put one together for a new world boss.
    Perhaps Kraken eyes will be a new/returning resource in the next expansion or maybe a very rare infusion drop from a Kraken world boss or something.
    Either way the Jade Sea is one location I cannot wait to revisit in GW2 ^^

    It would be very foolish of Anet to complete the transition of the Jade Sea back to sea water, and as far as we know that hasn't happened. We only know that its turning back into water, who knows how long that'll take.

    Edit: also, that's no mere kraken, that a servant of motherkitten Cthulhu! XD
    Double Edit: guess the profanity filter is missing a word on its blacklist :# don't feel like taking chances atm

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    I still insist that the Solid Ocean fractal is just Bubbles' champion in Cantha. Whether it's a glimpse of the future of our current path and magic instability or an alternate reality, I don't know.

    It very much looks the part doesnt it :)

    There is lore on it though, the Jade Maw is actually a Kraken which is a species known as far back as Gw1. (apparently these creatures were known to live in the oceans as far north as Elona as well)
    Granted Jade Maw is significantly bigger than any Kraken we ever saw in Gw1.. by a long shot but that could be more a design change between games rather than a specific size exclusively attributed to the Jade Maw.

    I wonder if with the Jade Sea retuning to normal over the last 250 years if we'll see a new giant Kraken world boss in this region of Cantha during the expansion.
    I see massive potential for this to happen if the Jade Sea isn't used for story/Elder Dragon purposes.
    Imagine fighting a Giant Kraken unbound from all that Jade and having multiple phases, one of which could be to defend Seige Turtles so they can barrage the Kraken with canonfire, stunning it so we could damage it.
    I would very much love for both Luxon and Kurzick regions to have their own unique world bosses in a Canthan expansion ^^
    Kraken is also one creature they already have a model for as well, or at least enough parts of one that they could put one together for a new world boss.
    Perhaps Kraken eyes will be a new/returning resource in the next expansion or maybe a very rare infusion drop from a Kraken world boss or something.
    Either way the Jade Sea is one location I cannot wait to revisit in GW2 ^^

    It would be very foolish of Anet to complete the transition of the Jade Sea back to sea water, and as far as we know that hasn't happened. We only know that its turning back into water, who knows how long that'll take.

    Edit: also, that's no mere kraken, that a servant of motherkitten Cthulhu! XD
    Double Edit: guess the profanity filter is missing a word on its blacklist :# don't feel like taking chances atm

    Yea I agree I don't want the Jade sea totally turned back either, if anything i'd like to see some parts of it still frozen in jade, some islands here and there, some jade some not and large chunks of jade layering the depths of the sea too with perhaps some underwater tunnels going through parts of it.

    There could even be entire sections of the sea trapped under that Jade like caverns which have turned back to water but are encased in jade and only accessable via said tunnels.
    Could end up fighting creatures still semi trapped in Jade with map design like that.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2020

    We'll find out the DSD is actually a giant bikini-clad female Argonian who opens a rift to the ESO world. The Black Lions quickly get overwhelmed by the tide of "Khajiit has wares!" and Our Heroes have to intervene to save Tyria's economy.