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Cantha and Elder Dragons, fun theory for the future.

Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

Well this one just came to me.

But I was thinking about how we now know that Elder Dragons are clearly more intelligent and complex than originally thought, and Bangar has essentially created an Army of Charr and alligned himself with Jormag as it's new Champion.. largely out of fear of Aurine and us and the power we wield as a force.

This also got me thinking about Jormags threat on the the horizon speech and how it seems to be trying to get as many allies as possible to secure it's place in this changing world.. going so far as to propose an alliance with another Elder Dragon which as far as we know is something that has never happened before.

What if this new changing world is Elder Dragons after witnessing the death of 3 of their own kind now recognize the power and the threat the mortal races present to them and are changing their ways from simply wiping out the not so feeble ants and are now seeking to form alliances with them, partly for their own protection and preservation but also to grow their forces as large and as powerful as they can.. as quickly as they can.

What if Bangar isnt the only one who has figured out that having his own Elder Dragon is the future now.
What if the Canthans are also aware of Aurine.. an Elder Dragon in the "service" of a foreign power that could one day be a threat to their empire.. a foreign power which has already "invaded" Elona and destroyed it's leader and it's Elder Dragon..
What if the Tyrians decide to "invade" Cantha too..
Perhaps the Canthan Empire needs an Elder Dragon of it's own to even the odds.. a deterrent or Mutually assured Destruction as it were.. and it just so happens there is one swimming around in the ocean somewhere.

And what of Primordus.. well he's been at odds with a certain race for a long time now, a race that another subterranean race has a deep resentment for and seeks to eradicate for past crimes.
What if the Dredge realize they could finally achieve this goal.. if they had their own Elder Dragon too?

What if that threat on the horizon isn't just another Elder Dragon.. the sea dragon as some predict and hope it is.

What if that threat is an Elder Dragon with an entire Canthan Empire! at it's beck and call.. and it has no intention of waiting for another to make the first move.

Just a fun little thought I had for a interesting and different way to bring Cantha into the game than just we wants it so gives please :)
A massive Canthan invasion force with an Elder Dragon leading it.. that would a fun story to go into ^^

<1

Comments

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Haha I know it very likely won't happen.
    Just though it was a fun idea to have an elder dragon with an empire behind it :) then have that empire invade the continent giving us a kind of world war like conflict which we've not experienced in this game before.

    Would be something that could force the races into a stronger union as well as giving us a bridge into a Canthan story ark but it would be more like we're hostile invaders to some extent forming alliances with rebe factions and fighting the established government/empire there.
    It could be a fun story to experience but im with ya, I don't see it happening either lol

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    To be fair, we know exactly nothing about Bubbles' character. That's a blank slate for the devs to fill in whatever manner best serves the story they want to tell. There's more than enough space for some form of cooperation with Cantha, be it subjugation, manipulation, or bound as the Emperor's pet superweapon.

    I think the greater hurdle right now is that Cantha is a bit... ah... ambitious for the current scope of the Saga structure, but maybe someday down the road.

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I can't see how Cantha would have word of Tyrian affairs when the DSD's minions are supposedly wiping out the few ships they try to send. Last word they could have gotten would be from the Zephyrites before they crashed. So at best, Cantha knows Zhaitan is dead.

    But the lore on the DSD suggests that it lies southwest, rather than due south like Cantha, so I doubt the DSD is even tied to Cantha - the only way it will be, is if ArenaNet decides to move it to Cantha.

    As to Cantha allying with an Elder Dragon - besides the fact it'd just be a rerun plot, Primordus is definitely not the type to make an alliance. For DSD to do so is unclear, it's too enigmatic, but repetitious plots aren't exactly ANet's thing - even if they skirt the similarities.

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  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't think its a terrible idea, despite the issues Konig points out its probably the most logical potential intro to Cantha I've seen to date. There are probably workarounds to allow the Canthan Empire the knowledge of whats happening in Tyria, but it'd be the possible reused concept that would stymie this idea, though that kinda depends on how the current LS/Saga goes. I could see that they could be different enough to get away with, but if not a different approach would be necessary.
    Emphasis on necessary, because kitten I want Cantha and I want it BAD.

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  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah it's all fair counter's ^^

    For it to work, the remaining dragons would need to in some way play by these new world rules.
    Primordus definitely doesn't seem the type to ally with mortals and Konig is right in that it doesn't look likely he would do this either.
    That said we've never actually spoken to it or heard of anyone who has either so we've only got it's behaviour to go on there and until recently Jormag was very much the same too albiet with notable differences and it's only now in the Icebrood Saga that we're really getting up close and personal understanding of just what Jormag is like.

    To get to the SeaDragon Empire concept I had to throw Primordus in the mix in some way, and admittedly with little thought to justify reusing the concept of Mortals seeking their own Elder Dragon.
    In reality it's kind of like a nuclear arms race.. everyone is aiming to have that super weapon to secure their power not just standing by and allowing one nation to do so and gain an upper hand on the rest of the world etc
    That's pretty much what this was all based on.. we have Aurine and the fear of us and her is what drove Bangar to persue Jormag.. it's completely rational for other nations, races etc in this world to think along the same lines about this, specially now that there are only 4 of them left and possibly 2 of them have already found their allies.

    In a way it's kinda more unrealistic if nobody tries to snatch up the other 2.
    This could be done very differently though, to use the Dredge again they could go after Primordus thinking it would make them a world power.. and that could end up leading to a twist where their entire race was almost wiped out instead.
    Or perhaps the Inquest could find a way to enslave Primordus via technology, they have been studying these things for a long time after all.
    So there are different ways and scenarios that could go down with Primordus, out of the ones i've mentioned I quite like the idea of the Dredge nearly wiping themselves out via stupidity lol
    From that scenario we could even see them forced to join forces with the Stone Dwarfs and set up a very different future for their race.

    But the question of Cantha does somewhat depend on how much they know about the activities on Tyria, We havent been in the loop with them in a long time that much we do know but that works both ways too.
    We have little to no idea what Cantha has been upto since it was cut off from Tyria.. and there is a lot of room there to write in backstory to explain how they've kept an eye on this Elder Dragon situation despite being on a different continent, I highly doubt the Awakening and rise of 6 Elder Dragons, The deaths of 3 of them and the ascention of a new one will have gone completely unnoticed by governments/empires/powers etc around the world, Specially when you factor in all the chaos in the mists that Kralkatorrik caused and the reawakening of portals to the mists such as the Mouth of Torment and Underworld etc
    The Mists is very much a global thing known to all cultures on Tyria and Canthans definitely have their own lore and practices for the Mists so I highly doubt they have not been effected by events in Tyria, they may have even found a way to Tyria through the mists and have used it to place spies through the various nations governments.

    It's just some fun to think about these things though ^^
    I doubt events will play out anything like what us fans have thought up lol

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭

    It would be logical for Kralkatorrik's damage to the Mists be noticed by the Canthan Empire, how could they not be aware of such a near apocalyptic event unless the Ritualist profession and the other related Canthan connections to the Mists are lost to the Empire.

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  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I get that a lot 😂

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    For it to work, the remaining dragons would need to in some way play by these new world rules.
    Primordus definitely doesn't seem the type to ally with mortals and Konig is right in that it doesn't look likely he would do this either.
    That said we've never actually spoken to it or heard of anyone who has either so we've only got it's behaviour to go on there and until recently Jormag was very much the same too albiet with notable differences and it's only now in the Icebrood Saga that we're really getting up close and personal understanding of just what Jormag is like.

    I would disagree about Jormag being similar to Primordus in terms of lack of communication (if anything, Jormag was the most communicative originally), and also say that the very fact that there's no communication between destroyers and mortals is a clear indication of intent - risen, mordrem, especially icebrood, and even branded do all communicate to varying degrees.

    To get to the SeaDragon Empire concept I had to throw Primordus in the mix in some way, and admittedly with little thought to justify reusing the concept of Mortals seeking their own Elder Dragon.
    In reality it's kind of like a nuclear arms race.. everyone is aiming to have that super weapon to secure their power not just standing by and allowing one nation to do so and gain an upper hand on the rest of the world etc
    That's pretty much what this was all based on.. we have Aurine and the fear of us and her is what drove Bangar to persue Jormag.. it's completely rational for other nations, races etc in this world to think along the same lines about this, specially now that there are only 4 of them left and possibly 2 of them have already found their allies.

    The thing is, with Cantha's long-standing human-superiority xenophobia established by the Ministry of Purity, if they were to join the nuclear arms race like Bangar (which I doubt for reasons below), then they're far more likely to go about creating an Elder Dragon than trying to control an existing one. Whether this is done in the form of finding and raising a scion, or going a more Inquest route of literally making an entity on par to Elder Dragons from non-ED means (for example, using Luxon Leviathan, modified by more modern magitech, and empowered by the Forever Trees / leftover god magic to become psuedo-immortal). Thus creating a Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla moment.

    Though this is a heavy parallel to the Iron Forgeman of Sorrow's Embrace as well. Personally, I'd rather see Kuda do something along with this, creating an Iron Forgeman 3.0 and taking on Primordus, then turning it into a Mecha-Ghidorah situation. It's a nice "nuclear arms race" concept that fits the existing ideology and could be reasonable, if Iron Forgeman 3.0 used some insane ice magic (like the Sanguinary Blade) as a power source.

    As for why I doubt Cantha would enter a nuclear arms race like Bangar, primarily because unlike Bangar, the Canthans are not a military culture, driven by conquest and knowing nothing but war - whereas that is exactly the charr, and especially Bangar's perspective. Bangar is entering this "nuclear arms race" because he views that the charr cannot exist without an enemy, and views the Pact as being forces supporting humanity - the charr's greatest enemy. In other words, he doesn't see Aurene as merely "a weapon another force has", he views her as "a weapon my enemy has". Canthans shouldn't have this kind of ideology, even with their xenophobia - they shouldn't see Aurene as "a weapon my enemy, other races and nationalities, have" but "an entity who was created by people who are inferior to us".

    At best, to me, it'd be logical to see it as a reason for why Canthans could have their own Elder Dragon, not should. And I think they're smart and uninfluenced enough to try to make one, rather than break one into servitude (hence aforementioned Mechagodzilla comparison).

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  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭

    I could live with a Mechagodzilla if it got us to Cantha.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    For it to work, the remaining dragons would need to in some way play by these new world rules.
    Primordus definitely doesn't seem the type to ally with mortals and Konig is right in that it doesn't look likely he would do this either.
    That said we've never actually spoken to it or heard of anyone who has either so we've only got it's behaviour to go on there and until recently Jormag was very much the same too albiet with notable differences and it's only now in the Icebrood Saga that we're really getting up close and personal understanding of just what Jormag is like.

    I would disagree about Jormag being similar to Primordus in terms of lack of communication (if anything, Jormag was the most communicative originally), and also say that the very fact that there's no communication between destroyers and mortals is a clear indication of intent - risen, mordrem, especially icebrood, and even branded do all communicate to varying degrees.

    Ahh I was referring more to that despite the communication thing both Primordus and Jormag destroy and kill as they feel like it and both have been well known for their evil behaviour in general.
    Jormag speaking to us and talking of alliances etc is far less convincing because of it's known past behaviour, it's why we know not to trust a word that it says.

    However Jormag speaking to us now does give us a different perspective on the dragon as a more complex being which until recently we more or less had the mindset that they were all evil destructive beasts.
    Primordus being the only one left that we still consider this way because of it's activity, behaviour and silence.. DSD being a total enigma we know nothing about.
    As soon as it talks to us.. that is if it talks to us at all, then that will give it more personality than just the evil beast we see it as atm.

    To get to the SeaDragon Empire concept I had to throw Primordus in the mix in some way, and admittedly with little thought to justify reusing the concept of Mortals seeking their own Elder Dragon.
    In reality it's kind of like a nuclear arms race.. everyone is aiming to have that super weapon to secure their power not just standing by and allowing one nation to do so and gain an upper hand on the rest of the world etc
    That's pretty much what this was all based on.. we have Aurine and the fear of us and her is what drove Bangar to persue Jormag.. it's completely rational for other nations, races etc in this world to think along the same lines about this, specially now that there are only 4 of them left and possibly 2 of them have already found their allies.

    The thing is, with Cantha's long-standing human-superiority xenophobia established by the Ministry of Purity, if they were to join the nuclear arms race like Bangar (which I doubt for reasons below), then they're far more likely to go about creating an Elder Dragon than trying to control an existing one. Whether this is done in the form of finding and raising a scion, or going a more Inquest route of literally making an entity on par to Elder Dragons from non-ED means (for example, using Luxon Leviathan, modified by more modern magitech, and empowered by the Forever Trees / leftover god magic to become psuedo-immortal). Thus creating a Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla moment.

    Though this is a heavy parallel to the Iron Forgeman of Sorrow's Embrace as well. Personally, I'd rather see Kuda do something along with this, creating an Iron Forgeman 3.0 and taking on Primordus, then turning it into a Mecha-Ghidorah situation. It's a nice "nuclear arms race" concept that fits the existing ideology and could be reasonable, if Iron Forgeman 3.0 used some insane ice magic (like the Sanguinary Blade) as a power source.

    As for why I doubt Cantha would enter a nuclear arms race like Bangar, primarily because unlike Bangar, the Canthans are not a military culture, driven by conquest and knowing nothing but war - whereas that is exactly the charr, and especially Bangar's perspective. Bangar is entering this "nuclear arms race" because he views that the charr cannot exist without an enemy, and views the Pact as being forces supporting humanity - the charr's greatest enemy. In other words, he doesn't see Aurene as merely "a weapon another force has", he views her as "a weapon my enemy has". Canthans shouldn't have this kind of ideology, even with their xenophobia - they shouldn't see Aurene as "a weapon my enemy, other races and nationalities, have" but "an entity who was created by people who are inferior to us".

    At best, to me, it'd be logical to see it as a reason for why Canthans could have their own Elder Dragon, not should. And I think they're smart and uninfluenced enough to try to make one, rather than break one into servitude (hence aforementioned Mechagodzilla comparison).

    That's a very fair point.
    Also a very good idea to bring Cantha into the game too, kudos man.
    I also like the idea of them trying to create their own Elder Dragon as well.. a great perversion of one in a way.. which kinda throws back to Gw1 and the afflicted in some ways too, Not so much the afrtificial element but the perversion one.. Afflicted being mutated and grotesque forms of what were once people.

    The inquest have experimented with dragon minions and magic trying to create bioweapons like that as well.
    They could introduce this story by investigating recent sabotage and thefts of inquest and Asuran research, specifically on the Dragons as well as abductions of prized scientists who have seemingly vanished into thin air (to be used as slave labour by the Empire to create this new weapon).
    As a side note this gives Zojja a good reason to come back too which would delight a lot of fans I expect, regardless of whether she had a new voice actor or not.

    If the Canthans are exploiting the mists to get back and fore into Tyria it could be a fun way to amp up the old Assassin class that originates from there, seperating it from the playable thief variant we get to use in Gw2.
    The Empire could have a whole network of highly trained Assasins and spies working through the mists and protecting the Empires agenda/investments.

    There's a lot of ways Anet could make this work well and and I'd be all for a story like this about some artificial Elder Dragon monstrosity.
    Could even go wrong (as it likely would if you've ever played a Resident Evil game) and end up corrupting and spreading through Cantha like a plague.. though that might be hitting a bit too close to the Gw1 story lol
    But it's kinda of what Elder Dragons do so it wouldn't be that much of a stretch, it could certainly be an interesting and disturbing design for a dragon too.
    In my mind I picture a Dragon that eventually becomes unstable and mutates into a mass blob of pretty much anything it can absorb into itself.
    Cantha could become a very dark, horror/nightmare like place ^^
    I doubt everyone would be happy with that though haha

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    For it to work, the remaining dragons would need to in some way play by these new world rules.
    Primordus definitely doesn't seem the type to ally with mortals and Konig is right in that it doesn't look likely he would do this either.
    That said we've never actually spoken to it or heard of anyone who has either so we've only got it's behaviour to go on there and until recently Jormag was very much the same too albiet with notable differences and it's only now in the Icebrood Saga that we're really getting up close and personal understanding of just what Jormag is like.

    I would disagree about Jormag being similar to Primordus in terms of lack of communication (if anything, Jormag was the most communicative originally), and also say that the very fact that there's no communication between destroyers and mortals is a clear indication of intent - risen, mordrem, especially icebrood, and even branded do all communicate to varying degrees.

    Ahh I was referring more to that despite the communication thing both Primordus and Jormag destroy and kill as they feel like it and both have been well known for their evil behaviour in general.

    Jormag speaking to us and talking of alliances etc is far less convincing because of it's known past behaviour, it's why we know not to trust a word that it says.

    However Jormag speaking to us now does give us a different perspective on the dragon as a more complex being which until recently we more or less had the mindset that they were all evil destructive beasts.
    Primordus being the only one left that we still consider this way because of it's activity, behaviour and silence.. DSD being a total enigma we know nothing about.

    As soon as it talks to us.. that is if it talks to us at all, then that will give it more personality than just the evil beast we see it as atm.

    Hmm, I would disagree. By the core game, we already knew that Jormag preferred converts rather than slaves, and had whispering powers to persuade folks to their side through. Similarly, we had enough interactions with risen to see Zhaitan as more than just some beast of destruction, with the risen's constant talk of eternal life, reunion with lost loves, etc. under Zhaitan. Kralkatorrik also left impressions from Edge of Destiny of being a beast of greed, wanting to have and consume all and destroy the rest (which is reiterated via Kralkatorrik's Torment in S4's finale). And when Mordremoth showed up in Season 2, we immediately got talk about how Mordremoth views the world itself (albeit not much).

    Only Primordus has remained a speechless, kill all things (not even corrupt!) Elder Dragon before confrontation.

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  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    ...it could be a fun way to amp up the old Assassin class that originates from there, seperating it from the playable thief variant we get to use in Gw2.

    This I have to admit I wouldn't be a fan of, I'd rather the Canthan Assassin arts added back too the Thief class in whatever way, I've always thought the bit of Thief lore Anet put out saying that they were unrelated to the Assassin profession was dumb, why wouldn't the Thief be the Tyrian take on Assassins? Its not like they didn't explicitly do something fairly similar to Guardians.

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  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Ahh I was referring more to that despite the communication thing both Primordus and Jormag destroy and kill as they feel like it and both have been well known for their evil behaviour in general.
    Jormag speaking to us and talking of alliances etc is far less convincing because of it's known past behaviour, it's why we know not to trust a word that it says.

    I wouldn't say we can't trust anything it says

    I see no reason to doubt that
    A. It has seen a time from before the cycles of Elder Dragons consuming all
    B. It knows something about the Mists, the Kodan, and the Norn, that could possibly be very damaging
    C. That it does, in its own twisted way, want to see the cycle ended.
    Much like zhaitan wanted to end the loss caused by death.... by making everyone undead, Jormag likely seeks to "save" the world by freezing it over so nothing ends. As it said at the end of Whisper in the Dark "Ice fortifies, ice protects"

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Personally, I've generally considered that a likely reason to go to Cantha would be the "Aurene can't do the job alone" angle. She's replaced Kralkatorrik, and in the process she's possibly absorbed more power than Kralkatorrik ever did (although she's not hoarding it in the same way), but from what we've been shown, the world's balance is still at its most stable with six Elder Dragons (or equivalents) than four. It can just about survive on four, maybe even three, but if it ever drops to two... boom.

    Which is why we might, at some stage, see Jormag's offers seriously considered. It's actions are speaking louder than its words, to be sure, but at some stage, the decision might well be made that accepting Jormag's offer is still less risky than killing it when we don't have a suitable scion ready. If a truce with Jormag can be reached - and there's a trend in Guild Wars of making alliances of convenience even if they'll probably bite you later on - then the Pact would probably feel the need to continue to keep an eye on the dragon, but it might be better than the alternative.

    This need for more scions, however, provides a reason to go to Cantha. Kuunavang and even Albax could both be considered to be possible candidates who have some degree of affiliation with mortals. Similar to Path of Fire, this could allow for a storyline which is part of the broader Elder Dragon picture, but could have a primary antagonist who is not an Elder Dragon.

    Is this where I mention I consulted on some of that? :p

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Eh why not.
    At this point they could stand to just throw the entire world into chaos for the fun of it before shutting the game down.

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  • @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Personally, I've generally considered that a likely reason to go to Cantha would be the "Aurene can't do the job alone" angle. She's replaced Kralkatorrik, and in the process she's possibly absorbed more power than Kralkatorrik ever did (although she's not hoarding it in the same way), but from what we've been shown, the world's balance is still at its most stable with six Elder Dragons (or equivalents) than four. It can just about survive on four, maybe even three, but if it ever drops to two... boom.

    Which is why we might, at some stage, see Jormag's offers seriously considered. It's actions are speaking louder than its words, to be sure, but at some stage, the decision might well be made that accepting Jormag's offer is still less risky than killing it when we don't have a suitable scion ready. If a truce with Jormag can be reached - and there's a trend in Guild Wars of making alliances of convenience even if they'll probably bite you later on - then the Pact would probably feel the need to continue to keep an eye on the dragon, but it might be better than the alternative.

    This need for more scions, however, provides a reason to go to Cantha. Kuunavang and even Albax could both be considered to be possible candidates who have some degree of affiliation with mortals. Similar to Path of Fire, this could allow for a storyline which is part of the broader Elder Dragon picture, but could have a primary antagonist who is not an Elder Dragon.

    Is this where I mention I consulted on some of that? :p

    Dammmit Drax.

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  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2020

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Personally, I've generally considered that a likely reason to go to Cantha would be the "Aurene can't do the job alone" angle. She's replaced Kralkatorrik, and in the process she's possibly absorbed more power than Kralkatorrik ever did (although she's not hoarding it in the same way), but from what we've been shown, the world's balance is still at its most stable with six Elder Dragons (or equivalents) than four. It can just about survive on four, maybe even three, but if it ever drops to two... boom.

    Which is why we might, at some stage, see Jormag's offers seriously considered. It's actions are speaking louder than its words, to be sure, but at some stage, the decision might well be made that accepting Jormag's offer is still less risky than killing it when we don't have a suitable scion ready. If a truce with Jormag can be reached - and there's a trend in Guild Wars of making alliances of convenience even if they'll probably bite you later on - then the Pact would probably feel the need to continue to keep an eye on the dragon, but it might be better than the alternative.

    This need for more scions, however, provides a reason to go to Cantha. Kuunavang and even Albax could both be considered to be possible candidates who have some degree of affiliation with mortals. Similar to Path of Fire, this could allow for a storyline which is part of the broader Elder Dragon picture, but could have a primary antagonist who is not an Elder Dragon.

    Ahh Kunni and Albax ^^ I'm glad others remember them as well.

    Some of my past theories on Canthan introduction included those as replacements for Elder Dragons as well.
    I always favoured the idea of the two of them replacing one Elder Dragon and creating a single new Elder Dragon that was 2 individual Dragons instead of just one giant one as we've come to expect.
    I still think this would be a cool concept to explore, and it would be pretty cool to have a Elder Dragon that can be physically in two places at the same time, not to mention the complicated situations that could occur if the two of them ever had a falling out or one of them was seriously injured.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    I wouldn't say we can't trust anything it says

    I see no reason to doubt that
    A. It has seen a time from before the cycles of Elder Dragons consuming all
    B. It knows something about the Mists, the Kodan, and the Norn, that could possibly be very damaging
    C. That it does, in its own twisted way, want to see the cycle ended.
    Much like zhaitan wanted to end the loss caused by death.... by making everyone undead, Jormag likely seeks to "save" the world by freezing it over so nothing ends. As it said at the end of Whisper in the Dark "Ice fortifies, ice protects"

    Jormag tends to lie with the truth so I would say we can't trust anything it says really.
    We may be able to get some bits of information out of it at times but there is always going to be that thought in the back of our heads wondering.. are we being manipulated?.. are we doing the right thing?.. is this what Jormag actually wanted us to do? etc

    It may have been around a long time and seen countless cycles but there is no way we can honestly take it's words in good faith.
    Everything it says is to be questioned, it's the dragon of persuasion after all, a very experienced liar and manipulator.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Is it just me or is anyone else tired of people trying to tie the DSD and cantha together? Both have SO MUCH going on by themselves, each could easily be 2+ expansions of content, rolling them together would be a disservice to all of it

    I'd rather keep going.. wherever the wind takes us

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fenom.9457 said:
    Is it just me or is anyone else tired of people trying to tie the DSD and cantha together?

    I got tired of it back in 2014.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Fenom.9457 said:
    Is it just me or is anyone else tired of people trying to tie the DSD and cantha together? Both have SO MUCH going on by themselves, each could easily be 2+ expansions of content, rolling them together would be a disservice to all of it

    Its just you. There are a fair amount of logical reasons to tie the two together, the least of which being that both are allegedly in the same general area. But the major reason to tie them together is that any story that takes us to Cantha will include the Elder Dragons, even if its indirectly as was the case with Path of Fire. The story of GW2 is the fight against the EDs, anything else are just side stories and filler content, we will not be visiting other lands without the EDs being at least a part of the reason why. As such its logical to take into consideration the one dragon that hasn't directly effected mainland Tyria aside from its actions forcing the quaggan, krait, and karka northward. There is Drax's theory of acquiring another benign ED replacement from Cantha, but that but such a plotline isn't at all mutually exclusive to including the DSD. So, until someone comes up with a better idea, connecting the DSD to a return to Cantha remains the best option at this time.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    Its just you. There are a fair amount of logical reasons to tie the two together, the least of which being that both are allegedly in the same general area.

    Ignoring the fact I just said it isn't just him:

    The DSD is in the depths of the ocean. Suggested by the placement of quaggans, krait, and karka (namely their lack of appearance along the Elonian shore), to be southwest of Tyria.

    Cantha is above water. Due south of Tyria.

    I'm not sure how this is "allegedly in the same general area". Nothing in lore ever suggests the two are related, except for a very ambiguous line about Canthan sailors sporadically washing ashore. But that could have been attributed to Zhaitan for all we know, really.

    But the major reason to tie them together is that any story that takes us to Cantha will include the Elder Dragons, even if its indirectly as was the case with Path of Fire.

    And of course, this is only as true as ArenaNet wants it to be true.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • NorthernRedStar.3054NorthernRedStar.3054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    I find it very unlikely.

    It makes sense Jormag would pull this kind of stunt, given that its always been somewhat manipulative and communicative, but Primordus has shown literally zero cares about mortals. Primi doesn't even seem to care about corrupting mortal races, instead just making its own minions out of rock and lava. I don't see him trying the same thing Jormag is trying now.

    I don't see Bubbles doing it with Cantha either.

    I don't see Bubbles doing it with Canthans, but I can see Canthans worshipping the dragon. Due to Jade Sea and seclusion from Tyria and Elona, they've always had a fairly intimate connection with the sea. Mind you, it'd be interesting to see what's the connection saltspray dragons (see GW1) have with the elder dragons, if any.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    Its just you. There are a fair amount of logical reasons to tie the two together, the least of which being that both are allegedly in the same general area.

    Ignoring the fact I just said it isn't just him:

    The DSD is in the depths of the ocean. Suggested by the placement of quaggans, krait, and karka (namely their lack of appearance along the Elonian shore), to be southwest of Tyria.

    Cantha is above water. Due south of Tyria.

    I'm not sure how this is "allegedly in the same general area". Nothing in lore ever suggests the two are related, except for a very ambiguous line about Canthan sailors sporadically washing ashore. But that could have been attributed to Zhaitan for all we know, really.

    But the major reason to tie them together is that any story that takes us to Cantha will include the Elder Dragons, even if its indirectly as was the case with Path of Fire.

    And of course, this is only as true as ArenaNet wants it to be true.

    First off, to be fair I didn't see your response until after I'd posted my own, so I wasn't ignoring it.

    As to the locations of Cantha and the DSD, the facts are that we don't know exactly where the DSD is and the EDs are known to move from place to place now and then. And I'll admit that I could be off base with this but it just makes sense to me that a Deep Sea Dragon would be more mobile. yeah, I'll admit that the phrase "same general area" wasn't the best choice of words, what I should have said is that out of all the Dragons the DSD is the most likely to be close enough to Cantha to be useful or relevant to the plot of a Canthan xpack/Living Story.

    Ok, so its technically possible that Anet could all collectively go full kitten and radically change the very nature of the overarching theme of GW2 and not have the ED's somehow be relevant to the plot of a Cantha xpak/LS, but I don't think even the most cynical here would think that would happen. I'm reasonably sure it was you that said that the overarching storyline of the EDs were the story of GW2 and that we'd probably never see a post-ED GW2 (Ok, maybe it was Drax or Aaron that said that, but my point still stands).

    And I dunno, if you or anyone else are genuinely that sick of the DSD and Cantha fan theories, maybe just don't read the threads explicitly about that, and if nothing else don't try and discourage us from discussing it.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2020

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    O.O Seriously!!

    I thought that was a prank at first but it's right on the home page!
    Confirming a new expansion out of nowhere and of course the "Feel the Winds of Change" comment, that's a straight up throwback to Gw1 and Cantha at the same time :D

    I am so kitten hyped right now ^^

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    I was wondering if we would get a vision of the past revolving around the refugees from Drizzlewood. We had, what, Norn, Human, and Tengu all living relatively peacefully in the same area and either exterminated or forced to evacuate from the Charr. Perhaps this will be a tie into us making a stronger alliance with The Dominion of the Four Winds Tengu as the story progresses. How that would lead us to Cantha I'm not sure. Unless we find out that there were some Tengu that weren't expelled from Cantha and act as scouts to the Dominion Tengu and reveal some information that forces us to go down there ourselves.

    Seems like that would be pretty unnecessary when we have Aurene or Elona that could provide the same intel.

    Then there's also the tunnel system that leads all the way from the Shiverpeaks to Elona which seems increasingly likely as we've had more and more Dwarven involvement.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2020

    Guess we maybe dealing with Bubbles in Cantha after all :bleep_bloop:

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2020

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    I still insist that the Solid Ocean fractal is just Bubbles' champion in Cantha. Whether it's a glimpse of the future of our current path and magic instability or an alternate reality, I don't know.

    It very much looks the part doesnt it :)

    There is lore on it though, the Jade Maw is actually a Kraken which is a species known as far back as Gw1. (apparently these creatures were known to live in the oceans as far north as Elona as well)
    Granted Jade Maw is significantly bigger than any Kraken we ever saw in Gw1.. by a long shot but that could be more a design change between games rather than a specific size exclusively attributed to the Jade Maw.

    I wonder if with the Jade Sea retuning to normal over the last 250 years if we'll see a new giant Kraken world boss in this region of Cantha during the expansion.
    I see massive potential for this to happen if the Jade Sea isn't used for story/Elder Dragon purposes.
    Imagine fighting a Giant Kraken unbound from all that Jade and having multiple phases, one of which could be to defend Seige Turtles so they can barrage the Kraken with canonfire, stunning it so we could damage it.
    I would very much love for both Luxon and Kurzick regions to have their own unique world bosses in a Canthan expansion ^^
    Kraken is also one creature they already have a model for as well, or at least enough parts of one that they could put one together for a new world boss.
    Perhaps Kraken eyes will be a new/returning resource in the next expansion or maybe a very rare infusion drop from a Kraken world boss or something.
    Either way the Jade Sea is one location I cannot wait to revisit in GW2 ^^

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    I still insist that the Solid Ocean fractal is just Bubbles' champion in Cantha. Whether it's a glimpse of the future of our current path and magic instability or an alternate reality, I don't know.

    It very much looks the part doesnt it :)

    There is lore on it though, the Jade Maw is actually a Kraken which is a species known as far back as Gw1. (apparently these creatures were known to live in the oceans as far north as Elona as well)
    Granted Jade Maw is significantly bigger than any Kraken we ever saw in Gw1.. by a long shot but that could be more a design change between games rather than a specific size exclusively attributed to the Jade Maw.

    I wonder if with the Jade Sea retuning to normal over the last 250 years if we'll see a new giant Kraken world boss in this region of Cantha during the expansion.
    I see massive potential for this to happen if the Jade Sea isn't used for story/Elder Dragon purposes.
    Imagine fighting a Giant Kraken unbound from all that Jade and having multiple phases, one of which could be to defend Seige Turtles so they can barrage the Kraken with canonfire, stunning it so we could damage it.
    I would very much love for both Luxon and Kurzick regions to have their own unique world bosses in a Canthan expansion ^^
    Kraken is also one creature they already have a model for as well, or at least enough parts of one that they could put one together for a new world boss.
    Perhaps Kraken eyes will be a new/returning resource in the next expansion or maybe a very rare infusion drop from a Kraken world boss or something.
    Either way the Jade Sea is one location I cannot wait to revisit in GW2 ^^

    It would be very foolish of Anet to complete the transition of the Jade Sea back to sea water, and as far as we know that hasn't happened. We only know that its turning back into water, who knows how long that'll take.

    Edit: also, that's no mere kraken, that a servant of motherkitten Cthulhu! XD
    Double Edit: guess the profanity filter is missing a word on its blacklist :# don't feel like taking chances atm

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    I still insist that the Solid Ocean fractal is just Bubbles' champion in Cantha. Whether it's a glimpse of the future of our current path and magic instability or an alternate reality, I don't know.

    It very much looks the part doesnt it :)

    There is lore on it though, the Jade Maw is actually a Kraken which is a species known as far back as Gw1. (apparently these creatures were known to live in the oceans as far north as Elona as well)
    Granted Jade Maw is significantly bigger than any Kraken we ever saw in Gw1.. by a long shot but that could be more a design change between games rather than a specific size exclusively attributed to the Jade Maw.

    I wonder if with the Jade Sea retuning to normal over the last 250 years if we'll see a new giant Kraken world boss in this region of Cantha during the expansion.
    I see massive potential for this to happen if the Jade Sea isn't used for story/Elder Dragon purposes.
    Imagine fighting a Giant Kraken unbound from all that Jade and having multiple phases, one of which could be to defend Seige Turtles so they can barrage the Kraken with canonfire, stunning it so we could damage it.
    I would very much love for both Luxon and Kurzick regions to have their own unique world bosses in a Canthan expansion ^^
    Kraken is also one creature they already have a model for as well, or at least enough parts of one that they could put one together for a new world boss.
    Perhaps Kraken eyes will be a new/returning resource in the next expansion or maybe a very rare infusion drop from a Kraken world boss or something.
    Either way the Jade Sea is one location I cannot wait to revisit in GW2 ^^

    It would be very foolish of Anet to complete the transition of the Jade Sea back to sea water, and as far as we know that hasn't happened. We only know that its turning back into water, who knows how long that'll take.

    Edit: also, that's no mere kraken, that a servant of motherkitten Cthulhu! XD
    Double Edit: guess the profanity filter is missing a word on its blacklist :# don't feel like taking chances atm

    Yea I agree I don't want the Jade sea totally turned back either, if anything i'd like to see some parts of it still frozen in jade, some islands here and there, some jade some not and large chunks of jade layering the depths of the sea too with perhaps some underwater tunnels going through parts of it.

    There could even be entire sections of the sea trapped under that Jade like caverns which have turned back to water but are encased in jade and only accessable via said tunnels.
    Could end up fighting creatures still semi trapped in Jade with map design like that.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2020

    We'll find out the DSD is actually a giant bikini-clad female Argonian who opens a rift to the ESO world. The Black Lions quickly get overwhelmed by the tide of "Khajiit has wares!" and Our Heroes have to intervene to save Tyria's economy.

  • Drizzt.1796Drizzt.1796 Member ✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Just a fun little thought I had for a interesting and different way to bring Cantha into the game than just we wants it so gives please :)
    A massive Canthan invasion force with an Elder Dragon leading it.. that would a fun story to go into ^^

    DSD INCOMING!

    Renegade Rework - A fan-made project including artwork and Wiki

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72196/become-renegade-the-greatsword-wielding-revenant#latest <<<----

    Awesome thread, made by DonArkanio.6419 , a revenant rework.

    Make sure to compliment him for all his hard work!!!

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What if DSD wasn't a bad guy and got dethroned at some point by its minions (Maybe with the help of the other elder dragons).So we get the mysterious stranger helper guy/dragon and instead of the kill the dragon find substitute we get return of the king kind of deal.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    What if DSD wasn't a bad guy and got dethroned at some point by its minions (Maybe with the help of the other elder dragons).

    Shouldn't be possible. Dragon minions are enslaved to their Elder Dragon's will. The only way a dragon minion could revolt would be if the Elder Dragon did what Aurene did to Caithe, however, the DSD corrupts water into minions, similar to destroyers being made from rock and lava, and water doesn't have its own will so without the DSD's will it'd just be like a comatose elemental.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    What if DSD wasn't a bad guy and got dethroned at some point by its minions (Maybe with the help of the other elder dragons).

    Shouldn't be possible. Dragon minions are enslaved to their Elder Dragon's will. The only way a dragon minion could revolt would be if the Elder Dragon did what Aurene did to Caithe, however, the DSD corrupts water into minions, similar to destroyers being made from rock and lava, and water doesn't have its own will so without the DSD's will it'd just be like a comatose elemental.

    We have no information about anything about the DSD and its minions. It can be assumed it will be creator dragon like Mordremoth, Primordus and not corruptor like the other 3. You assume that the minions would be more like destroyers and less like mordrem. If we go by some logic and assume the dragons are 3 on 3 corruptor/creator and the compare their minions we get mindless Branded and Destroyers, pseudo autonomous like the Risen Mordrem and we are left with the Jormag type minions which lean in the brainwashed "free" will kind of deal. Or it can be completely different from everything till now.
    There is also an option that the Canthan empire messed with the dragon. There is so many options with it since it can be written in which ever way they want to since we know kitten all about it. The writers can really go wild with it since it allows allot of creativity.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    We have no information about anything about the DSD and its minions. It can be assumed it will be creator dragon like Mordremoth, Primordus and not corruptor like the other 3. You assume that the minions would be more like destroyers and less like mordrem. If we go by some logic and assume the dragons are 3 on 3 corruptor/creator and the compare their minions we get mindless Branded and Destroyers, pseudo autonomous like the Risen Mordrem and we are left with the Jormag type minions which lean in the brainwashed "free" will kind of deal. Or it can be completely different from everything till now.
    There is also an option that the Canthan empire messed with the dragon. There is so many options with it since it can be written in which ever way they want to since we know kitten all about it. The writers can really go wild with it since it allows allot of creativity.

    I doubt the Canthans have put up any significant resistance against the dragon. If they had, the water dragon wouldn't still be crunching Canthan boats left and right, preventing them from making contact with Tyria/Elona.

    The Continued isolation of Cantha, as well as the irregular Canthan sailor washing up on shore after their ship got wrecked, seems to indicate what we would expect based on past experiences. The dragon is around, messing with the Canthans, but hasn't gone full on attack mode yet.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    We have no information about anything about the DSD and its minions. It can be assumed it will be creator dragon like Mordremoth, Primordus and not corruptor like the other 3. You assume that the minions would be more like destroyers and less like mordrem. If we go by some logic and assume the dragons are 3 on 3 corruptor/creator and the compare their minions we get mindless Branded and Destroyers, pseudo autonomous like the Risen Mordrem and we are left with the Jormag type minions which lean in the brainwashed "free" will kind of deal. Or it can be completely different from everything till now.
    There is also an option that the Canthan empire messed with the dragon. There is so many options with it since it can be written in which ever way they want to since we know kitten all about it. The writers can really go wild with it since it allows allot of creativity.

    I doubt the Canthans have put up any significant resistance against the dragon. If they had, the water dragon wouldn't still be crunching Canthan boats left and right, preventing them from making contact with Tyria/Elona.

    The Continued isolation of Cantha, as well as the irregular Canthan sailor washing up on shore after their ship got wrecked, seems to indicate what we would expect based on past experiences. The dragon is around, messing with the Canthans, but hasn't gone full on attack mode yet.

    Where have there been Canthan sailors washing up?

    I thought they were self-isolationists rather than forced by some elder dragon?

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    We have no information about anything about the DSD and its minions.

    We do have some information, actually. Not much, but some. It could easily get retconned, but what we have is:

    In the deepest waters of the sea, another dragon breathed, twisting the waters themselves into tentacled horrors that rose from every lake and river of the land.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World
    This is either embellished (aka unreliable narrator) or retconned, given that the DSD's minions haven't "[risen] from every lake and river of the land", but it does establish that the DSD corrupts water itself to create minions, as Primordus corrupts lava to create minions. Either way, the DSD corrupting water has yet to be contradicted.

    Veteran Water Foreman: Ridiculous. How big can it be? And couldn't they snare a smaller one?
    Water Lead Scientist: You saw the hologram of it. That thing is a monster.
    Veteran Water Foreman: Oh, that one. Okay, I guess we'll need to overhaul the hub, then.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infinite_Coil_Reactor#Ambient_dialogue
    Tells us that the DSD's minions are pretty dang big. At least, the one the Inquest captured.

    Asuran PC: What are these waterspouts? They're salt water.
    Charr PC: Waterspouts? What? Hmm, salty.
    Sylvari PC: Salt water? What the...
    Norn PC: Is that the smell of brine? Mixed with the smell of blood.
    Human PC: I smell the ocean.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/City_of_Hope#Dialogue
    During a trial that introduces dragon minions one by one, instead of DSD minions it gives us water, what they are made of according to The Movement of the World, which rather supports the Movement's statement.

    Sporadic sailors have washed ashore on the southern coast of the Maguuma jungles , but that is the only evidence that Cantha even exists past the cataclysmic event that cut it off from Tyria. It can only be assumed that Usoku's successors continued his dictatorial, isolationist rule, and that Cantha continues beneath the iron fist of the emperor, as ever.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World

    Scholars have long debated the possible existence of another Elder Dragon—one that may possess a degree of control over water and the oceans. Canthan and Elonian sailors have recounted tales of strange creatures heretofore unknown emerging from the oceans, possibly tied to this dragon's resurgence, but as of this writing, that folklore has yet to be empirically verified.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Dragons:_Notes_from_the_Field
    Which gives us a rough location of where the minions can be found, and implies that they appear like sea creatures "hereto unknown". If they were corrupted sea creatures, then they would have enough resemblance to be known.

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    It can be assumed it will be creator dragon like Mordremoth, Primordus and not corruptor like the other 3. You assume that the minions would be more like destroyers and less like mordrem.

    First off, Mordremoth is not a creator dragon, but a corruptor. It corrupts living plants into its minions. Technically all six are corruptors, since they're all corrupting something into minions - it's just that Primordus and the DSD are the only Elder Dragons to primarily prefer corrupting inanimate elements into minions.

    I am not assuming they'd be more like destroyers rather than mordrem, I'm postulating based on known evidence - the mordrem were still created from living entities, even if said entities were plants. And plants in Guild Wars' universe seem to have enough sapience to them to have a will of their own even if lacking communication and mobility most of the time (the "living plants" enemy type such as Iboga, oakhearts, etc. are proof of this).

    If we go by some logic and assume the dragons are 3 on 3 corruptor/creator and the compare their minions we get mindless Branded and Destroyers, pseudo autonomous like the Risen Mordrem and we are left with the Jormag type minions which lean in the brainwashed "free" will kind of deal. Or it can be completely different from everything till now.

    Most mordrem were mindless, like your typical dragon minion grunt, but were given micromanagement by Mordremoth directly making them seem more intelligent when they weren't (like comparing RTS's where the player manages every action they can, versus letting it run on auto); it was the Mordrem Guard who are more akin to the Frost Legion that weren't. Technically speaking, Mordrem Guard were not corrupted, but convinced to join Mordremoth - Mordremoth had to use more traditional styled mental conditioning to turn sylvari into Mordrem Guard, as it couldn't corrupt sylvari.

    If you exclude the sylvari / Mordrem Guard, mordrem as as mindless as your standard branded and destroyer. The most intelligent "grunts" are risen and icebrood as only they speak (and even then, the only icebrood grunts to speak are icebrood quaggans oddly enough). Though there are more "low level lieutenants" among icebrood and risen compared to branded.

    Besides, there's zero evidence to suggest any kind of shoehorn grouping - why can't risen be one of a kind in their apparent level of intelligence? Even then, that little intelligence that they had which allowed them to say one-liners upon finding, killing, or dying to an enemy all diminished greatly with Zhaitan's death implying that said intelligence was not due to the minion, but due to their active connection to Zhaitan.

    And to play the devil's advocate and use your logic, the shoehorn 3-and-3 grouping would pretty clearly be mordrem/risen/icebrood as the "intelligent" minions, and thus branded/destroyers/DSDminions as the unintelligent ones.

    There is also an option that the Canthan empire messed with the dragon. There is so many options with it since it can be written in which ever way they want to since we know kitten all about it. The writers can really go wild with it since it allows allot of creativity.

    While plausible, very unlikely. Current lore indicates that the DSD is southwest of Tyria, and northwest of Cantha - ergo, more west than south of Tyria. While sailors from Cantha have met its apparent minions, there's no indication that Cantha's mainland has yet.

    If Cantha is involved with the DSD, it will likely be a recent development much like Kralkatorrik flying to Elona after the events of HoT, and not during the timespan of unclear activity in the 10 years after fighting Destiny's Edge and killing Glint.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    The Continued isolation of Cantha, as well as the irregular Canthan sailor washing up on shore after their ship got wrecked, seems to indicate what we would expect based on past experiences. The dragon is around, messing with the Canthans, but hasn't gone full on attack mode yet.

    More of "messing around in the Clashing Seas" than with Canthans, really. Hard to say outright with the lack of exploring that side of lore, but if the Canthan ships they send north keep getting taken out, then they may not even be aware of the DSD.

    Based on the lore of the DSD, with quaggans, krait, and karka taking refuge in the Sea of Sorrows and Strait of Malchor instead of Elonian shoreline (only presence of those three there is karka in Sandswept Isle which were brought there by the Inquest for scarab plague testing by all indication), that would imply a more northern presence than southern. Won't stop the DSD from moving there just in time for expansion 3 or season 6 or something, but I imagine that if Canthans knew of the DSD, and since they definitely know of Zephyrites and airships (even if just the Zephyrite kind), I imagine they wouldn't leave it to a few, occasional ships to try to reopen contact with Tyria/Elona.

    @Bast.7253 said:
    Where have there been Canthan sailors washing up?

    I thought they were self-isolationists rather than forced by some elder dragon?

    Original line:

    Sporadic sailors have washed ashore on the southern coast of the Maguuma jungles , but that is the only evidence that Cantha even exists past the cataclysmic event that cut it off from Tyria. It can only be assumed that Usoku's successors continued his dictatorial, isolationist rule, and that Cantha continues beneath the iron fist of the emperor, as ever.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World

    More recent update:

    Scholars have long debated the possible existence of another Elder Dragon—one that may possess a degree of control over water and the oceans. Canthan and Elonian sailors have recounted tales of strange creatures heretofore unknown emerging from the oceans, possibly tied to this dragon's resurgence, but as of this writing, that folklore has yet to be empirically verified.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Dragons:_Notes_from_the_Field

    The whole "self-isolation" is a bit of a false interpretation of the Movement's lore, btw. In Sea of Sorrows novel, it's established that Cantha still had open trade with Kryta up until Zhaitan's rise. Similarly, during Festival of the Four Winds 2014, the Zephyrites had just returned from Cantha whom they traded with. Cantha's isolationism wasn't full out closed borders, unlike Elona which was legally closed off from Tyria's side. Ultimately, it was Zhaitan's fleet of dead ships and the DSD's minions that forced that isolationism, and not Tyrian or Canthan governments.

    Cantha just went into a stricter rule (which included forcing the Kurzocks and Luxons fully into the empire rather than being distant vassals) that saw many people leaving, refused to accept immigration, and then kicked the tengu (and according to them / the Movement, all non-humans) out of the nation.

    TL;DR
    Canthans seem fully open to trade and contact - they just have no land or rooms for sale to non-Canthan humans.

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  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Based on the lore of the DSD, with quaggans, krait, and karka taking refuge in the Sea of Sorrows and Strait of Malchor instead of Elonian shoreline (only presence of those three there is karka in Sandswept Isle which were brought there by the Inquest for scarab plague testing by all indication), that would imply a more northern presence than southern. Won't stop the DSD from moving there just in time for expansion 3 or season 6 or something, but I imagine that if Canthans knew of the DSD, and since they definitely know of Zephyrites and airships (even if just the Zephyrite kind), I imagine they wouldn't leave it to a few, occasional ships to try to reopen contact with Tyria/Elona.

    If the DSD was more northern then southern we would expect to see more Tyrian ships be impacted by it, but, so far, only Canthan, and Elonian, ships have been mentioned as being harassed. The fact that a small boat was able to take us from Amnoon in the Crystal Desert, past Fort Trinity, around Orr, and then all the way to Istan, without any sort of harassment, not only suggests that Zhaitan's navy has been cleaned up, but that the water dragon isn't in that area. Even in regards to Elona, we see that the corsairs have maintained a naval fleet, and make no mention of the water dragon or its minions bothering them around Elona.

    This again suggests that the water dragon and its minions are more south, in the waters bwteen Cantha and Istan, while Istan and more northward is clearer, or was under Zhaitan's undead navy's control. before that got taken down.

    I would take a guess its probably closer to around where the battle isles were before they sunk. Thiswould also fit the Karka's movement patterns, without having to make the assumption the Inquest brought them to the Sandsweapt Isles

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Scholars have long debated the possible existence of another Elder Dragon—one that may possess a degree of control over water and the oceans. Canthan and Elonian sailors have recounted tales of strange creatures heretofore unknown emerging from the oceans, possibly tied to this dragon's resurgence, but as of this writing, that folklore has yet to be empirically verified.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Dragons:_Notes_from_the_Field
    Which gives us a rough location of where the minions can be found, and implies that they appear like sea creatures "hereto unknown". If they were corrupted sea creatures, then they would have enough resemblance to be known.

    It is worth noting that we do have examples of previously unknown sea creatures showing up due to being displaced by the DSD, such as the karka. If the karka were unknown to land-dwellers until Southsun was introduced despite being regarded as ancient by deep sea dwellers such as the largos, it seems likely that there are additional natural sea creatures that remain unknown.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    If the DSD was more northern then southern we would expect to see more Tyrian ships be impacted by it, but, so far, only Canthan, and Elonian, ships have been mentioned as being harassed. The fact that a small boat was able to take us from Amnoon in the Crystal Desert, past Fort Trinity, around Orr, and then all the way to Istan, without any sort of harassment, not only suggests that Zhaitan's navy has been cleaned up, but that the water dragon isn't in that area. Even in regards to Elona, we see that the corsairs have maintained a naval fleet, and make no mention of the water dragon or its minions bothering them around Elona.

    This again suggests that the water dragon and its minions are more south, in the waters bwteen Cantha and Istan, while Istan and more northward is clearer, or was under Zhaitan's undead navy's control. before that got taken down.

    You wouldn't really see Tyrian ships be impacted by the DSD's minions due to Zhaitan. I never contested that Zhaitan's fleet had greater presence closer to Tyria, but that wouldn't stop the DSD from moving in afterwards (not to say it was - I don't think it's gotten notably closer to Tyria, but perhaps it has to Elona now that we're getting Elonian sailor reports?). Furthermore, Zhaitan didn't seem to much presence in the Clashing Seas itself, whereas the DSD is definitely implied to.

    Which is to say, I'd argue the DSD is in (or west of) the northern Clashing Seas, while Zhaitan was north of the Clashing Seas.

    As to our own lack of interaction... as you denote about the small vessel taking us to Istan (which is a very weird path given the risen presence, and it's implied to not be a brand new path either; it'd make more sense if it went through the Elon, but waterfalls prevent this), the ship still stuck close to the shore (a vessel of that size wouldn't survive in the far open seas). The deep sea dragon is, well, deep sea, so it isn't likely to have a presence near the more shallow waters (yet). Besides, if Dragonfall didn't reveal its minions, then neither would a small vessel sticking within marginal distance to the shore.

    And one more key thing is that, so far, no Tyrian vessel is known to go out into the Clashing Seas - we don't have any indication of Tyrian ships daring the seas beyond the Strait of Malchor yet, and if they do, they at best keep closer to the shore in a route towards Istan.

    I would take a guess its probably closer to around where the battle isles were before they sunk. Thiswould also fit the Karka's movement patterns, without having to make the assumption the Inquest brought them to the Sandsweapt Isles

    If this was so, though, then why are there no quaggan or krait along Sandswept, Istan, or Kourna?

    And it isn't an assumption that the Inquest brought the karka to Sandswept Isles - there's two indicators that proves it's so:

    1. There is zero karka nesting in Sandswept Isle. Yet there is in even Ring of Fire where their presence is rather small. In other words, local karka presence = karka nesting present.
    2. The story instances tell us that the Inquest were capturing samples and bringing them to the lab; on top of that, thanks to our own actions, the test subjects were teleported out of the base into the surrounding areas (can't remember if this was forced or optional to the player during The Test Subject instance, but I do remember teleporting out living and unaffected test subjects).

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  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    As to our own lack of interaction... as you denote about the small vessel taking us to Istan (which is a very weird path given the risen presence,

    Not really. The war against the Risen ended years ago, and Zhaitan's fleets and such were mostly destroyed by the Pact in that time. The remaining Risen are nowhere near as organized due to being "unchained" and wouldn't pose much of a problem off land by the time of PoF.

    If this was so, though, then why are there no quaggan or krait along Sandswept, Istan, or Kourna?

    Because that doesn't make much sense.

    Looking at the world map. If the DSD was near the Battle Isles, and the Krait, Quaggan, and Largos in the deep oceans just to the north of the isles, and was pushing them up, we would expect to see them where we do see them. Elona would be a right right detour for most of them.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    As to our own lack of interaction... as you denote about the small vessel taking us to Istan (which is a very weird path given the risen presence,

    Not really. The war against the Risen ended years ago, and Zhaitan's fleets and such were mostly destroyed by the Pact in that time. The remaining Risen are nowhere near as organized due to being "unchained" and wouldn't pose much of a problem off land by the time of PoF.

    So you're arguing that the path only existed post-Orr... except that Elona was cut off, and that path was still patrolled by Tyrians. So it couldn't have existed until the events of PoF reopened communications and borders.

    Which is exactly why I consider it a weird path - the dialogue implies that we're taking a common Elonian trade route which is patrolled by Joko's forces. But said route couldn't exist for more than a few months - a few years at the very most (and this demands avoiding both Joko and Tyrian patrols.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    If this was so, though, then why are there no quaggan or krait along Sandswept, Istan, or Kourna?

    Because that doesn't make much sense.

    Looking at the world map. If the DSD was near the Battle Isles, and the Krait, Quaggan, and Largos in the deep oceans just to the north of the isles, and was pushing them up, we would expect to see them where we do see them. Elona would be a right right detour for most of them.

    Your argument makes no sense, and actually only counters your argument that the DSD is near the Battle Isles.

    If the DSD had in fact begun its march near the Battle Isles (more on why we know this isn't so later), then the fact that the quaggans and krait aren't near Elona is, in fact, the oddity. You claim it's a "detour", but that's only so if they were intentionally seeking out the Sea of Sorrows - if their goal was simply fleeing from the DSD, then any shallow land would suffice, and Elona is much closer from their starting point. The only counter to them seeking the closest shallow lands would be if the DSD had cut them off from that direction first.

    Like the norn and kodan, those who flee the Elder Dragons would do so in a cone or scattered directional movement, not a straight line. This is why I suggest the DSD began further west, and pushed north / northeast into quaggan lands - because by using a cone, they would hit Elona as well as Orr, while if they were west, then they would hit Orr, the Tarnished Coast, and the western coast of the Maguuma instead.

    Now, about the DSD being at the Battle Isles - unless our old lore gets retconned, then we know for a fact that the DSD did not wake up near there:

    In the deepest waters of the sea, another dragon breathed, twisting the waters themselves into tentacled horrors that rose from every lake and river of the land.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World
    While we don't know which sea, the Battle Isles most certainly are not "the deepest waters" of the Clashing Seas. And given the krait, karka, and quaggans, the only viable seas would be the Clashing Seas that lies between Tyria/Elona and Cantha, or some unnamed-to-players sea to the west.

    Incidentally, this description of where it woke is close to the description of the krait's home before being pushed out by the DSD:

    This slave-keeping, aquatic race had been denizens of deep trenches, but they suddenly erupted into traditionally quaggan lands, destroying their civilization.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Mostly_Harmless_Quaggan
    As oceanic trenches tend to be the deepest parts of the seas they're a part of, there's a good chance the krait were on top of the DSD, much like Orr was on top of Zhaitan. Thus, like the kodan, they likely scattered in all directions, while the quaggans and karka fled in a cone-shaped migration away from the krait and by extension DSD.

    So while the DSD might now be located near the sunken Battle Isles, it certainly didn't begin there.

    All of this is why I have been arguing that the DSD is, in fact, west of the Battle Isles (possibly a bit north, too), and that the quaggans, krait, and karka migrated northeast to avoid the DSD. And that this is why they aren't in Elona.

    And while I'm sure ArenaNet has long forgotten these pieces of lore, there are more obscure lore from GW1 that pushes the DSD's "deepest parts of the ocean" further away from Elona. Such as this bit from the Nightfall manual:

    The corsairs have remained free by learning to survive in treacherous waters, sailing where the Istani will not or cannot follow. Their fleets remain hidden near the most dangerous stretches of the Elonian coast. Between the northwest coast of Cantha and the southern rim of Elona, a deadly sea is troubled by sudden storms and cyclones, hidden reefs, and dangerous sea creatures. These waters were once navigated by fearless Luxon raiders from Cantha, and to this day, brigands from many cultures search for secret coves hidden by these deadly waters.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Corsair

    You won't get reefs that can hinder ships in the deepest parts of the seas. Though one could retcon the reefs and "dangerous sea creatures" into being the krait and their Deeps, this would counteract the above movement possibilities.

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  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'd also like to throw in here that the cloest point we have ever been to the open ocean and thus at the greatest risk of encountering the DSD or it's minions was when we took a Charr Submarine to Draconis Mons.

    Pretty sure we landed on the south/SW side of that island as well and since then we've also dropped an Elder Dragon and 3 giant chunks of God Realms into that ocean too without even making the DSD curious..
    So there is a good chance DSD is likely still somewhere far out into the Ocean and keeping away from Tyrians.. probbaly doesn't even care about us at the moment or could still be busy attacking someone or something else.
    Or it could be laying on the bottom of the ocean somewhere pigging out on magic.. we just don't know.

    What I'd expect though is that when/if the DSD does come to the mainland it will not come personally, it would send it's minions first and so far it hasn't even done that.
    If it does make minions from water then attacking coastal areas would be expected.. but then we know nothing about these minions.. do they need a water source to continue existing? could they survive long outside of water? we don't know.. but without minions that could survive on land for long periods of time then there is no real point for DSD to come near land or attack it anyway.
    Not unless it planned to tsunami entire areas first which some artwork has suggested it maybe capable of, it's still a lot of what if's though and we just don't know enough about this thing or it's minions at this point.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    So you're arguing that the path only existed post-Orr... except that Elona was cut off, and that path was still patrolled by Tyrians. So it couldn't have existed until the events of PoF reopened communications and borders.

    Which is exactly why I consider it a weird path - the dialogue implies that we're taking a common Elonian trade route which is patrolled by Joko's forces. But said route couldn't exist for more than a few months - a few years at the very most (and this demands avoiding both Joko and Tyrian patrols.

    Konig, Elona is a a very specific region of the world. Elona itself doesn't technically begin until the Joko Wall. Everything north of that is part of the Crystal Desert, which is part of Tyria.

    We have NPCs in Amnoon talking about the branded cutting off their northern trade routes, and, lo and behold, in the northern part of the Desert Highlands, there is a passage to Ebonhawke thats been collapsed by the Branded, with an NPC standing around talking about it. This is likewise confirmed by the Desert Gate guards in Ebonhawke, who mention that the gate into the desert was sealed off because of the branded moving in. Joko only controls Elona, Elona ends at the Joko Wall, and Joko has no real control over anything north of the wall besides that one small village. Joko never had any ability to block off trade from Amnoon to Ebonhawke. and we know from NPC dialog that said trade did happen, if infrequently. At least until Kralk moved into the region a few years ago.

    Its also possible that the land bridge between Orr and the scavanger's causeway isn't totally solid, and is more like the area around the Vizier's tower, where small boats could sail past it, bypassing needing to skirt around Orr, or go near Pact HQ.

    If the DSD had in fact begun its march near the Battle Isles (more on why we know this isn't so later), then the fact that the quaggans and krait aren't near Elona is, in fact, the oddity. You claim it's a "detour", but that's only so if they were intentionally seeking out the Sea of Sorrows - if their goal was simply fleeing from the DSD, then any shallow land would suffice, and Elona is much closer from their starting point. The only counter to them seeking the closest shallow lands would be if the DSD had cut them off from that direction first.

    Or, you know, because the DSD was to the south of them, and its forces were pushing north, so everyone naturally flee north to get as far away from it as possible, instead of going side to side where less distance is gained. You wouldn't want to go the closest shallow lands, because that traps you between the DSD and land. Going far away puts more distance between the two of you, instead of having to flee a little, get encroached on again ,and flee again. Your argument only makes sense if we assume all of the Krait, Largos, and Quaggan are just totally stupid.

    Like the norn and kodan, those who flee the Elder Dragons would do so in a cone or scattered directional movement, not a straight line. This is why I suggest the DSD began further west, and pushed north / northeast into quaggan lands - because by using a cone, they would hit Elona as well as Orr, while if they were west, then they would hit Orr, the Tarnished Coast, and the western coast of the Maguuma instead.

    The Norn didn't go in a cone though, they went straight south, led by Asgeir and the Spirits, who founded Hoelbrek, then the spread out from there. Likewise, the Kodan were forced to follow the ice sea, and all ended up trapped in Frostgorge sound(the map), and the watery areas north of it. Neither of them scattered, or coned out. If the Kodan had scattered, we would expect to have heard of Kodan sanctuary cities along the coast of the woodland cascades, between there and the Isles of Janthir. Instead they all seemed to have been forced down one path.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    So you're arguing that the path only existed post-Orr... except that Elona was cut off, and that path was still patrolled by Tyrians. So it couldn't have existed until the events of PoF reopened communications and borders.

    Which is exactly why I consider it a weird path - the dialogue implies that we're taking a common Elonian trade route which is patrolled by Joko's forces. But said route couldn't exist for more than a few months - a few years at the very most (and this demands avoiding both Joko and Tyrian patrols.

    Konig, Elona is a a very specific region of the world. Elona itself doesn't technically begin until the Joko Wall. Everything north of that is part of the Crystal Desert, which is part of Tyria.

    Please stop splitting hairs, you know what I meant - Central Tyria nations (e.g., Kryta, Lion's Arch, etc.) and Elonian cultures (e.g., Elona nation and Amnoon and nomads in the desert). Also, the Crystal Desert was included in the lockdown as firmly established right off the bat in Path of Fire:

    First Mate Fidus Foecrush: Our navigational charts didn't say nothing about gigantic pyramids. Didn't think our info was so out-of-date.
    Pact Commander: It's been hard for cartographers to keep up. This entire region has been in lockdown since Palawa Joko took over.

    Amnoon has been cut off from Central Tyria since Joko took over.

    Joko never had any ability to block off trade from Amnoon to Ebonhawke.

    Who said it was Joko's doing? The dialogue during Sparking the Flame is pretty clearly painting it being the nations of Tyria who cut off ties to Elona, not the other way around. They didn't even have knowledge of re-established Amnoon's oldest structures.

    If the DSD had in fact begun its march near the Battle Isles (more on why we know this isn't so later), then the fact that the quaggans and krait aren't near Elona is, in fact, the oddity. You claim it's a "detour", but that's only so if they were intentionally seeking out the Sea of Sorrows - if their goal was simply fleeing from the DSD, then any shallow land would suffice, and Elona is much closer from their starting point. The only counter to them seeking the closest shallow lands would be if the DSD had cut them off from that direction first.

    Or, you know, because the DSD was to the south of them, and its forces were pushing north, so everyone naturally flee north to get as far away from it as possible, instead of going side to side where less distance is gained. You wouldn't want to go the closest shallow lands, because that traps you between the DSD and land. Going far away puts more distance between the two of you, instead of having to flee a little, get encroached on again ,and flee again. Your argument only makes sense if we assume all of the Krait, Largos, and Quaggan are just totally stupid.

    Entire nations worth of refugees do not flee in a straight line. Look at any historical refugee event to see proof of that. And they DSD lives in deep seas, so finding shallow lands is considered a safe haven for them. Hence why they even began heading to land, even risking Orrian waters, rather than skirting around and going west.

    Also, largos haven't fled from the deep sea dragon.

    Like the norn and kodan, those who flee the Elder Dragons would do so in a cone or scattered directional movement, not a straight line. This is why I suggest the DSD began further west, and pushed north / northeast into quaggan lands - because by using a cone, they would hit Elona as well as Orr, while if they were west, then they would hit Orr, the Tarnished Coast, and the western coast of the Maguuma instead.

    The Norn didn't go in a cone though, they went straight south, led by Asgeir and the Spirits, who founded Hoelbrek,

    Tell that to Leadfoot Village and the other norn who went to Drizzlewood after Jormag. I'm sure if there's any survivors of the Dominion's invasion, that they'd tell you otherwise.

    Likewise, the Kodan were forced to follow the ice sea, and all ended up trapped in Frostgorge sound(the map), and the watery areas north of it. Neither of them scattered, or coned out. If the Kodan had scattered, we would expect to have heard of Kodan sanctuary cities along the coast of the woodland cascades, between there and the Isles of Janthir. Instead they all seemed to have been forced down one path.

    Again, wrong.

    However, with the rise of the Elder Dragon Jormag, the great ice ships of the kodan were driven apart. Some fled to the north; others were capsized, torn apart, and destroyed by the dragon's wrath. Some few escaped southward, cut off from their fellows by the destruction and rising tide.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Wisdom_and_Power_of_the_Kodan

    They were, indeed, scattered to different directions. We haven't been to the coasts of the Woodland Cascades to know if any kodan sanctuaries went there. We've seen less than half of the kodan race. That's just the easiest to track down source, btw. There's others out there establishing that they were scattered to all directions, not just north and south.

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