Soon every legend skill will cost 50 energy (in PvP) if this continues — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Soon every legend skill will cost 50 energy (in PvP) if this continues

Xca.9721Xca.9721 Member ✭✭✭
edited March 5, 2020 in Revenant

Anet keeps increasing the energy costs for utility skills rather than nerfing the functionality of them. This is such a lazy handling of balancing things.

Comments

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xca.9721 said:
    Anet keeps increasing the energy costs for utility skills rather than nerfing the functionality of them. This is such a lazy handling of balancing things.

    Make your pick, useless skill that costs nothing or useful skill that cost something. I lean towards useful skill that cost something, afaik Mallyx is still good with proper plays so it was the right call instead of making it's skills useless.

    Riposting Shadows is no exception, Shiro is still well beyond playable and just as strong with proper decision making.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ye thats kinda terrible. I was thinking about trying my condi rev build out in pvp.... well,thanks to the latest patch, no pvp for me then :bleep_bloop:

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xca.9721 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Xca.9721 said:
    Anet keeps increasing the energy costs for utility skills rather than nerfing the functionality of them. This is such a lazy handling of balancing things.

    Make your pick, useless skill that costs nothing or useful skill that cost something. I lean towards useful skill that cost something, afaik Mallyx is still good with proper plays so it was the right call instead of making it's skills useless.

    Riposting Shadows is no exception, Shiro is still well beyond playable and just as strong with proper decision making.

    More like "useful skill that costs too much". It´s no fun to play a class that can´t even use half of their utility because the energy is drained by too expensive skills.

    Both Shiro and Mallyx were bloated and too easy to use, there's not much to say otherwise. Jalis was always expensive and always worked fine, so it's no excuse to ignore the rest when everyone's getting the same threatment.

  • Xca.9721Xca.9721 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Xca.9721 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Xca.9721 said:
    Anet keeps increasing the energy costs for utility skills rather than nerfing the functionality of them. This is such a lazy handling of balancing things.

    Make your pick, useless skill that costs nothing or useful skill that cost something. I lean towards useful skill that cost something, afaik Mallyx is still good with proper plays so it was the right call instead of making it's skills useless.

    Riposting Shadows is no exception, Shiro is still well beyond playable and just as strong with proper decision making.

    More like "useful skill that costs too much". It´s no fun to play a class that can´t even use half of their utility because the energy is drained by too expensive skills.

    Both Shiro and Mallyx were bloated and too easy to use, there's not much to say otherwise. Jalis was always expensive and always worked fine, so it's no excuse to ignore the rest when everyone's getting the same threatment.

    That´s my point, when they are too bloated you should nerf the functionality or increase the CD, not the energy which worsens fluid gameplay

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2020

    @Xca.9721 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Xca.9721 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Xca.9721 said:
    Anet keeps increasing the energy costs for utility skills rather than nerfing the functionality of them. This is such a lazy handling of balancing things.

    Make your pick, useless skill that costs nothing or useful skill that cost something. I lean towards useful skill that cost something, afaik Mallyx is still good with proper plays so it was the right call instead of making it's skills useless.

    Riposting Shadows is no exception, Shiro is still well beyond playable and just as strong with proper decision making.

    More like "useful skill that costs too much". It´s no fun to play a class that can´t even use half of their utility because the energy is drained by too expensive skills.

    Both Shiro and Mallyx were bloated and too easy to use, there's not much to say otherwise. Jalis was always expensive and always worked fine, so it's no excuse to ignore the rest when everyone's getting the same threatment.

    That´s my point, when they are too bloated you should nerf the functionality or increase the CD, not the energy which worsens fluid gameplay

    But it doesn't if you know what you are doing, you're not supposed to be able to do more than anyone else that's where it's bloated and also where Revenant was broken, we don't have to gut skills everywhere to push dopamine in, that breaks situational benefits, the skills weren't OP in their function either, only their constant use. Like changing CtA radius doesn't change the event that it can be used too often, same with PA or BE. Adding a cooldown to BE would kill it's ability to reward patient players or quickly consume energy for Charged Mists and so on, 30 already felt like a lot compared 25 but since I can make it work myself I guess Anet made the better call.

    Also comparing energy Legends like they are all the same playstyle doesn't make for a valid buff or nerf, saying that Jalis is not expensive is completely ignoring the fact that it relies extremely on Upkeep to survive unlike Mallyx or Shiro which use it to exceed their damage throughput, skills are also not as expensive if you use them in combination with other legends which is how the class is designed. Renegade is the most expensive legend if we had to do numbers like most people tend to compare.

    FYI they could make for a 35 Forced Engagement but that would make proper clutch interrupts literally impossible hence why it's on a cooldown instead, an expensive one at that as the worst for Revenant outside of healing skills when it can setup any type of burst while reducing damage by a lot counting the skill effect, weakness and slow. CtA comparably has a different purpose but can be used for such in it's own way, same for Jade Winds. What does the cost matter if you can legend swap after or have more energy with Charged Mists or Ancient Echo?

    It's also another case of if it was just energy, people could just spam it, weapons have cooldowns for that and so some skills do for balance, just have to accept it. This class isn't Thief, it's a whole entire different beast of synergy flipping back and forth. Adjustments were needed because the whole game is changing, that doesn't mean costs will keep increasing when they were too low to begin with.

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2020

    @Xca.9721 said:
    Anet keeps increasing the energy costs for utility skills rather than nerfing the functionality of them. This is such a lazy handling of balancing things.

    Agreed. However, this is going to creep into WvW as well eventually. The class has become a husk of what it was intended to be. It’s going to be to the point that you use one skill only and then wait. Rinse and repeat. Sounds like loads of fun....

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's not useful skill which cost too much.
    It's essential skill being too overloaded that costs too much to the point it starts to hurt actual gameplay.

    Seems fine on paper, sure, but when put in actual practice, it feels like big doo doo.

    Welcome to Rev : Stunbreaking puts all yur skills on cooldown 2. Electric boogaloo.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They shouldnt increase their energy costs. Better would be
    Pain absorbtion: Doesnt grant Allies resistance anymore.
    Mallyx aoe(forgot name): Lower the damage, its still an aoe. Chilling is ok
    Banishing thingy: only remove boons from one person.

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    It's also another case of if it was just energy, people could just spam it, weapons have cooldowns for that and so some skills do for balance, just have to accept it. This class isn't Thief, it's a whole entire different beast of synergy flipping back and forth. Adjustments were needed because the whole game is changing, that doesn't mean costs will keep increasing when they were too low to begin with.

    Actually, you’re slightly wrong here in regards to your Thief comment. The original concept and released Revenant was indeed for the class to be somewhere between Elementalist Attunements (Legend swap) and Thief Initative (energy system) as a throw back to the energy system used in G1.

    What we have today doesn’t really reflect that as well anymore and the class is now way to restricted with double penalties of CDs and higher energy costs. A reduction of abilities is a much better solution and more fitting to the intended Revenant conception and release.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They should rise the cost to 55 to everything seriously. I kill with mace autoattacks; when I swap to Mallyx I tend to not use skills, saving energy to breakstun or proc resistance with Pain Absortion if is needed, or using Call to Anguish to interrupt rezzes, or after stacking energy for a while activating the Embrace the Darkness upkeep, which seems to be the passive agressive gameplay ANet expects from us.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2020

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Xca.9721 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Xca.9721 said:
    Anet keeps increasing the energy costs for utility skills rather than nerfing the functionality of them. This is such a lazy handling of balancing things.

    Make your pick, useless skill that costs nothing or useful skill that cost something. I lean towards useful skill that cost something, afaik Mallyx is still good with proper plays so it was the right call instead of making it's skills useless.

    Riposting Shadows is no exception, Shiro is still well beyond playable and just as strong with proper decision making.

    More like "useful skill that costs too much". It´s no fun to play a class that can´t even use half of their utility because the energy is drained by too expensive skills.

    Both Shiro and Mallyx were bloated and too easy to use, there's not much to say otherwise. Jalis was always expensive and always worked fine, so it's no excuse to ignore the rest when everyone's getting the same threatment.

    Even if it is true (and not necessarily is), the solution is not to increase energy, but reduce the bloat. And in the past, both Pain Absorption and CtA cost was reduced specifically cuz the high cost rendered them obsolete.

    This is just a bandied the devs threw cuz they are too lazy to come-up with functional solutions to problems, they unnecessarily created, with previous broken patch.

    Y'all always have the same broken record of a comment, whether it's lazy or not. There's no point in coming up with a better skill when the skill itself is fine and the constant usage is the problem.

    I don't know what you're trying to achieve by saying pressing the same skill over and over at a low cost and effect is better, it's not. It's a ridiculous idea.

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    It's also another case of if it was just energy, people could just spam it, weapons have cooldowns for that and so some skills do for balance, just have to accept it. This class isn't Thief, it's a whole entire different beast of synergy flipping back and forth. Adjustments were needed because the whole game is changing, that doesn't mean costs will keep increasing when they were too low to begin with.

    Actually, you’re slightly wrong here in regards to your Thief comment. The original concept and released Revenant was indeed for the class to be somewhere between Elementalist Attunements (Legend swap) and Thief Initative (energy system) as a throw back to the energy system used in G1.

    What we have today doesn’t really reflect that as well anymore and the class is now way to restricted with double penalties of CDs and higher energy costs. A reduction of abilities is a much better solution and more fitting to the intended Revenant conception and release.

    What double penalties? Are you saying every Elementalist skills are useful or that a Thief can burst 10 times in a row??

    God it would be fun to put perma quarter sec pulse stab and spam weak sauce unrelenting assault, totally healthy gameplay right there, or would you say no lets rework everything to something else even thought the system is fine now? Yeah, absolutely try to balance relevant skills on perma usage based an on energy pool only, that's when you're gonna get higher energy costs. As you were the one saying there is better things to invest than functionality fixes, stop asking the devs to mold the existing ideas to yours. Accept what the Revenant really is, not what you envisioned, you're not gonna get an elementalist thief, what you have is Revenant and this is the concept you should engrave on your mind to suggest ideas about, not scrap and redesign because it doesn't work for you.

    The game has shifted and the classes are adjusted, this is what you're gonna get because this is what works whether you like it or not. Because it doesn't work in your hands doesn't mean it can't in the others.

    @Buran.3796
    After the changes I still have enough energy to do whatever I was doing post bug fix, so I can't agree with that.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2020

    @Shao.7236 said:

    Y'all always have the same broken record of a comment, whether it's lazy or not. There's no point in coming up with a better skill when the skill itself is fine and the constant usage is the problem.

    I'm thinking Rev could very well just work with balanced CDs and have Energy removed altogether.
    Right now all it does is limit an already crippled class.

    It's like while everyone functions normally, Rev is bleeding with every step they take.

    Just remove Energy, balance the CDs, and we will have a somewhat smoother gameplay.

    The Strength of Rev would then be : two powerful Utility sets.
    The Weakness of Rev would then be : Unable to customize the utilities, so what yu see is what yu get, leading to more predictive gameplay, but then again, every build has some sort of predictive gameplay anyway.

    I mean, some other classes have cooldown based utilities which are also extremely overloaded.
    I think Rev could work well with decent cooldowns.

    Unless people want extremely weak utilities which they can spam every second, but then people are gonna cry nerf again and Anet in their infinite wisdom will slap more Energy cost and HERE WE GO AGAIN.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Xca.9721 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Xca.9721 said:
    Anet keeps increasing the energy costs for utility skills rather than nerfing the functionality of them. This is such a lazy handling of balancing things.

    Make your pick, useless skill that costs nothing or useful skill that cost something. I lean towards useful skill that cost something, afaik Mallyx is still good with proper plays so it was the right call instead of making it's skills useless.

    Riposting Shadows is no exception, Shiro is still well beyond playable and just as strong with proper decision making.

    More like "useful skill that costs too much". It´s no fun to play a class that can´t even use half of their utility because the energy is drained by too expensive skills.

    Both Shiro and Mallyx were bloated and too easy to use, there's not much to say otherwise. Jalis was always expensive and always worked fine, so it's no excuse to ignore the rest when everyone's getting the same threatment.

    Even if it is true (and not necessarily is), the solution is not to increase energy, but reduce the bloat. And in the past, both Pain Absorption and CtA cost was reduced specifically cuz the high cost rendered them obsolete.

    This is just a bandied the devs threw cuz they are too lazy to come-up with functional solutions to problems, they unnecessarily created, with previous broken patch.

    Y'all always have the same broken record of a comment, whether it's lazy or not. There's no point in coming up with a better skill when the skill itself is fine and the constant usage is the problem.

    I don't know what you're trying to achieve by saying pressing the same skill over and over at a low cost and effect is better, it's not. It's a ridiculous idea.

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    It's also another case of if it was just energy, people could just spam it, weapons have cooldowns for that and so some skills do for balance, just have to accept it. This class isn't Thief, it's a whole entire different beast of synergy flipping back and forth. Adjustments were needed because the whole game is changing, that doesn't mean costs will keep increasing when they were too low to begin with.

    Actually, you’re slightly wrong here in regards to your Thief comment. The original concept and released Revenant was indeed for the class to be somewhere between Elementalist Attunements (Legend swap) and Thief Initative (energy system) as a throw back to the energy system used in G1.

    What we have today doesn’t really reflect that as well anymore and the class is now way to restricted with double penalties of CDs and higher energy costs. A reduction of abilities is a much better solution and more fitting to the intended Revenant conception and release.

    What double penalties? Are you saying every Elementalist skills are useful or that a Thief can burst 10 times in a row??

    God it would be fun to put perma quarter sec pulse stab and spam weak sauce unrelenting assault, totally healthy gameplay right there, or would you say no lets rework everything to something else even thought the system is fine now? Yeah, absolutely try to balance relevant skills on perma usage based an on energy pool only, that's when you're gonna get higher energy costs. As you were the one saying there is better things to invest than functionality fixes, stop asking the devs to mold the existing ideas to yours. Accept what the Revenant really is, not what you envisioned, you're not gonna get an elementalist thief, what you have is Revenant and this is the concept you should engrave on your mind to suggest ideas about, not scrap and redesign because it doesn't work for you.

    The game has shifted and the classes are adjusted, this is what you're gonna get because this is what works whether you like it or not. Because it doesn't work in your hands doesn't mean it can't in the others.

    @Buran.3796
    After the changes I still have enough energy to do whatever I was doing post bug fix, so I can't agree with that.

    ....that’s not at all what I was saying and you’re taking things to the extremes here with some your sarcastic remarks.

    Revenant is not my idea. It was Anet’s and in particular Roy’s, and what he envisioned. It is not what I envisioned. I’m simply telling you what the class was intended to be from his design. If it gets changed too much, like the direction it’s is currently going, the class is going to lose its identity. That’s all I’m saying. No need for the targeted sarcasm. If you want to take that road, have at it. The road is yours.

    You ask me to stop asking for changes to mold my ideas into the class, yet you opened a thread to ask for just the same thing for your ideas. If you think the class is fine, then don’t open such threads.

    Also, where did I ever say the class doesn’t work for me now or ever? I can answer that. I didn’t. There is no need to make things personal, so please stop.

    Let's see what's the class identity about.. Low cooldowns.. Based on Energy.. The game has been getting a change of pace.. How's that killing identity exactly to have nerfs all around in the entire game? Thief been getting Initiative nerfs with utility CD increase, so has been Elementalist down right to Obsidian Flesh since they have been compared so much, even better still. Nothing plays like Revenant regardless, in fact if we're talking identity by design the class has been sacrificing some efficient of skills by bad design to keep it's identity. (Renegade)

    There's been claims of bad decisions for keeping the game as similar as possible by increasing energy costs instead, for what exactly? Why do people think it's better to ruin a skill that can't be freely swapped around rather than change the pace? That should be something you should know about as the one with more experience to throw around.

    Clearly there's something wrong if there's constant complains and disagreement to the changes, that's not making it personal, just acknowledging that it doesn't work for you to have the nerfs handed out, otherwise why complain or even bother to discuss about it, why not tell me the problem surrounding the idea while putting out something else that have full context of the situation, such as not looking at a clip in a vacuum saying that doesn't represent anything but bad plays when it's the most common synergy.

    Sorry, maybe I expressed the sentiment of "molding" to your ideals wrong, but there was power creep and you refused to acknowledge it thinking it was all fine instead by going as far to mention people just plain suck and should punish, granted it's been taken care of now. There's not a whole lot left for Revenant to be balanced and only improved because of design flaws that are in practice required for relevance. As for the other classes, mostly Guardians conditions that were untouched, Rangers pets and multipliers that were untouched, people saying Necromancers are still having overperforming Lifeforce but I kinda disagree as only the US ICD been problematic.

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2020

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Xca.9721 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Xca.9721 said:
    Anet keeps increasing the energy costs for utility skills rather than nerfing the functionality of them. This is such a lazy handling of balancing things.

    Make your pick, useless skill that costs nothing or useful skill that cost something. I lean towards useful skill that cost something, afaik Mallyx is still good with proper plays so it was the right call instead of making it's skills useless.

    Riposting Shadows is no exception, Shiro is still well beyond playable and just as strong with proper decision making.

    More like "useful skill that costs too much". It´s no fun to play a class that can´t even use half of their utility because the energy is drained by too expensive skills.

    Both Shiro and Mallyx were bloated and too easy to use, there's not much to say otherwise. Jalis was always expensive and always worked fine, so it's no excuse to ignore the rest when everyone's getting the same threatment.

    Even if it is true (and not necessarily is), the solution is not to increase energy, but reduce the bloat. And in the past, both Pain Absorption and CtA cost was reduced specifically cuz the high cost rendered them obsolete.

    This is just a bandied the devs threw cuz they are too lazy to come-up with functional solutions to problems, they unnecessarily created, with previous broken patch.

    Y'all always have the same broken record of a comment, whether it's lazy or not. There's no point in coming up with a better skill when the skill itself is fine and the constant usage is the problem.

    I don't know what you're trying to achieve by saying pressing the same skill over and over at a low cost and effect is better, it's not. It's a ridiculous idea.

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    It's also another case of if it was just energy, people could just spam it, weapons have cooldowns for that and so some skills do for balance, just have to accept it. This class isn't Thief, it's a whole entire different beast of synergy flipping back and forth. Adjustments were needed because the whole game is changing, that doesn't mean costs will keep increasing when they were too low to begin with.

    Actually, you’re slightly wrong here in regards to your Thief comment. The original concept and released Revenant was indeed for the class to be somewhere between Elementalist Attunements (Legend swap) and Thief Initative (energy system) as a throw back to the energy system used in G1.

    What we have today doesn’t really reflect that as well anymore and the class is now way to restricted with double penalties of CDs and higher energy costs. A reduction of abilities is a much better solution and more fitting to the intended Revenant conception and release.

    What double penalties? Are you saying every Elementalist skills are useful or that a Thief can burst 10 times in a row??

    God it would be fun to put perma quarter sec pulse stab and spam weak sauce unrelenting assault, totally healthy gameplay right there, or would you say no lets rework everything to something else even thought the system is fine now? Yeah, absolutely try to balance relevant skills on perma usage based an on energy pool only, that's when you're gonna get higher energy costs. As you were the one saying there is better things to invest than functionality fixes, stop asking the devs to mold the existing ideas to yours. Accept what the Revenant really is, not what you envisioned, you're not gonna get an elementalist thief, what you have is Revenant and this is the concept you should engrave on your mind to suggest ideas about, not scrap and redesign because it doesn't work for you.

    The game has shifted and the classes are adjusted, this is what you're gonna get because this is what works whether you like it or not. Because it doesn't work in your hands doesn't mean it can't in the others.

    @Buran.3796
    After the changes I still have enough energy to do whatever I was doing post bug fix, so I can't agree with that.

    ....that’s not at all what I was saying and you’re taking things to the extremes here with some your sarcastic remarks.

    Revenant is not my idea. It was Anet’s and in particular Roy’s, and what he envisioned. It is not what I envisioned. I’m simply telling you what the class was intended to be from his design. If it gets changed too much, like the direction it’s is currently going, the class is going to lose its identity. That’s all I’m saying. No need for the targeted sarcasm. If you want to take that road, have at it. The road is yours.

    You ask me to stop asking for changes to mold my ideas into the class, yet you opened a thread to ask for just the same thing for your ideas. If you think the class is fine, then don’t open such threads.

    Also, where did I ever say the class doesn’t work for me now or ever? I can answer that. I didn’t. There is no need to make things personal, so please stop.

    Let's see what's the class identity about.. Low cooldowns.. Based on Energy.. The game has been getting a change of pace.. How's that killing identity exactly to have nerfs all around in the entire game? Thief been getting Initiative nerfs with utility CD increase, so has been Elementalist down right to Obsidian Flesh since they have been compared so much, even better still. Nothing plays like Revenant regardless, in fact if we're talking identity by design the class has been sacrificing some efficient of skills by bad design to keep it's identity. (Renegade)

    There's been claims of bad decisions for keeping the game as similar as possible by increasing energy costs instead, for what exactly? Why do people think it's better to ruin a skill that can't be freely swapped around rather than change the pace? That should be something you should know about as the one with more experience to throw around.

    Clearly there's something wrong if there's constant complains and disagreement to the changes, that's not making it personal, just acknowledging that it doesn't work for you to have the nerfs handed out, otherwise why complain or even bother to discuss about it, why not tell me the problem surrounding the idea while putting out something else that have full context of the situation, such as not looking at a clip in a vacuum saying that doesn't represent anything but bad plays when it's the most common synergy.

    Sorry, maybe I expressed the sentiment of "molding" to your ideals wrong, but there was power creep and you refused to acknowledge it thinking it was all fine instead by going as far to mention people just plain suck and should punish, granted it's been taken care of now. There's not a whole lot left for Revenant to be balanced and only improved because of design flaws that are in practice required for relevance. As for the other classes, mostly Guardians conditions that were untouched, Rangers pets and multipliers that were untouched, people saying Necromancers are still having overperforming Lifeforce but I kinda disagree as only the US ICD been problematic.

    And once again, your saying things I didn’t mention.

    And you dif make it personal by several of your remarks toward me in both above replies. So, enjoy that road 😘

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    Revenant is not my idea. It was Anet’s and in particular Roy’s, and what he envisioned. It is not what I envisioned. I’m simply telling you what the class was intended to be from his design. If it gets changed too much, like the direction it’s is currently going, the class is going to lose its identity.

    I entirely agree with this. I would remark some milestones about the Revenent identity:

    • The staff was never envisaged as a weapon that roots you in place; Herald already provided that with the block in the shield and we had already lost a block on movement in the off hand sword. They botched the block in the sword "to provide damage instead", then erased the sword damage, made it slow as the hammer, removed the interrupt in the staff #2 and finally made the #5 useless to disengage.
    • Condition Revenant was designed to be slower but tankier, and to have better AoE damage and better tools to endure conditions; the main source of damage was torment, with a bit of burning. Then with PoF they provided a condition weapon based on bleeds with 0 synergies with the core condi Revenant, and without defensive or mobility tools. Kalla was also designed as squishy, with summons than die easily, the stunbreak in the heal, and some other atrocities.

      They should have nerfed the damage of power Herald instead of botching the flow of its skills, it would have lessen the weight of the class in PvP without turning it in a trainwreck. I don't buy the argument of "less frequent skills, more weight in their use"; the game is as spammy as before the patch: the only difference is that now it takes longer to kill foes.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2020

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Xca.9721 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Xca.9721 said:
    Anet keeps increasing the energy costs for utility skills rather than nerfing the functionality of them. This is such a lazy handling of balancing things.

    Make your pick, useless skill that costs nothing or useful skill that cost something. I lean towards useful skill that cost something, afaik Mallyx is still good with proper plays so it was the right call instead of making it's skills useless.

    Riposting Shadows is no exception, Shiro is still well beyond playable and just as strong with proper decision making.

    More like "useful skill that costs too much". It´s no fun to play a class that can´t even use half of their utility because the energy is drained by too expensive skills.

    Both Shiro and Mallyx were bloated and too easy to use, there's not much to say otherwise. Jalis was always expensive and always worked fine, so it's no excuse to ignore the rest when everyone's getting the same threatment.

    Even if it is true (and not necessarily is), the solution is not to increase energy, but reduce the bloat. And in the past, both Pain Absorption and CtA cost was reduced specifically cuz the high cost rendered them obsolete.

    This is just a bandied the devs threw cuz they are too lazy to come-up with functional solutions to problems, they unnecessarily created, with previous broken patch.

    Y'all always have the same broken record of a comment, whether it's lazy or not. There's no point in coming up with a better skill when the skill itself is fine and the constant usage is the problem.

    I don't know what you're trying to achieve by saying pressing the same skill over and over at a low cost and effect is better, it's not. It's a ridiculous idea.

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    It's also another case of if it was just energy, people could just spam it, weapons have cooldowns for that and so some skills do for balance, just have to accept it. This class isn't Thief, it's a whole entire different beast of synergy flipping back and forth. Adjustments were needed because the whole game is changing, that doesn't mean costs will keep increasing when they were too low to begin with.

    Actually, you’re slightly wrong here in regards to your Thief comment. The original concept and released Revenant was indeed for the class to be somewhere between Elementalist Attunements (Legend swap) and Thief Initative (energy system) as a throw back to the energy system used in G1.

    What we have today doesn’t really reflect that as well anymore and the class is now way to restricted with double penalties of CDs and higher energy costs. A reduction of abilities is a much better solution and more fitting to the intended Revenant conception and release.

    What double penalties? Are you saying every Elementalist skills are useful or that a Thief can burst 10 times in a row??

    God it would be fun to put perma quarter sec pulse stab and spam weak sauce unrelenting assault, totally healthy gameplay right there, or would you say no lets rework everything to something else even thought the system is fine now? Yeah, absolutely try to balance relevant skills on perma usage based an on energy pool only, that's when you're gonna get higher energy costs. As you were the one saying there is better things to invest than functionality fixes, stop asking the devs to mold the existing ideas to yours. Accept what the Revenant really is, not what you envisioned, you're not gonna get an elementalist thief, what you have is Revenant and this is the concept you should engrave on your mind to suggest ideas about, not scrap and redesign because it doesn't work for you.

    The game has shifted and the classes are adjusted, this is what you're gonna get because this is what works whether you like it or not. Because it doesn't work in your hands doesn't mean it can't in the others.

    @Buran.3796
    After the changes I still have enough energy to do whatever I was doing post bug fix, so I can't agree with that.

    ....that’s not at all what I was saying and you’re taking things to the extremes here with some your sarcastic remarks.

    Revenant is not my idea. It was Anet’s and in particular Roy’s, and what he envisioned. It is not what I envisioned. I’m simply telling you what the class was intended to be from his design. If it gets changed too much, like the direction it’s is currently going, the class is going to lose its identity. That’s all I’m saying. No need for the targeted sarcasm. If you want to take that road, have at it. The road is yours.

    You ask me to stop asking for changes to mold my ideas into the class, yet you opened a thread to ask for just the same thing for your ideas. If you think the class is fine, then don’t open such threads.

    Also, where did I ever say the class doesn’t work for me now or ever? I can answer that. I didn’t. There is no need to make things personal, so please stop.

    Let's see what's the class identity about.. Low cooldowns.. Based on Energy.. The game has been getting a change of pace.. How's that killing identity exactly to have nerfs all around in the entire game? Thief been getting Initiative nerfs with utility CD increase, so has been Elementalist down right to Obsidian Flesh since they have been compared so much, even better still. Nothing plays like Revenant regardless, in fact if we're talking identity by design the class has been sacrificing some efficient of skills by bad design to keep it's identity. (Renegade)

    There's been claims of bad decisions for keeping the game as similar as possible by increasing energy costs instead, for what exactly? Why do people think it's better to ruin a skill that can't be freely swapped around rather than change the pace? That should be something you should know about as the one with more experience to throw around.

    Clearly there's something wrong if there's constant complains and disagreement to the changes, that's not making it personal, just acknowledging that it doesn't work for you to have the nerfs handed out, otherwise why complain or even bother to discuss about it, why not tell me the problem surrounding the idea while putting out something else that have full context of the situation, such as not looking at a clip in a vacuum saying that doesn't represent anything but bad plays when it's the most common synergy.

    Sorry, maybe I expressed the sentiment of "molding" to your ideals wrong, but there was power creep and you refused to acknowledge it thinking it was all fine instead by going as far to mention people just plain suck and should punish, granted it's been taken care of now. There's not a whole lot left for Revenant to be balanced and only improved because of design flaws that are in practice required for relevance. As for the other classes, mostly Guardians conditions that were untouched, Rangers pets and multipliers that were untouched, people saying Necromancers are still having overperforming Lifeforce but I kinda disagree as only the US ICD been problematic.

    And once again, your saying things I didn’t mention.

    And you dif make it personal by several of your remarks toward me in both above replies. So, enjoy that road 😘

    Because you're on a different thread doesn't mean what you said before in another one doesn't have any relevance. That's just hypocritical, let alone the fact you couldn't even calculate energy properly or the behavior of the pool. There's nothing personal about keeping consistency about your thoughts on the matter. Yes, I'll enjoy the road of being honest about something overperforming even if it's my own things, have a good day.

    @Buran.3796 said:

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    Revenant is not my idea. It was Anet’s and in particular Roy’s, and what he envisioned. It is not what I envisioned. I’m simply telling you what the class was intended to be from his design. If it gets changed too much, like the direction it’s is currently going, the class is going to lose its identity.

    I entirely agree with this. I would remark some milestones about the Revenent identity:

    • The staff was never envisaged as a weapon that roots you in place; Herald already provided that with the block in the shield and we had already lost a block on movement in the off hand sword. They botched the block in the sword "to provide damage instead", then erased the sword damage, made it slow as the hammer, removed the interrupt in the staff #2 and finally made the #5 useless to disengage.

    I don't get your statement on this.

    • Condition Revenant was designed to be slower but tankier, and to have better AoE damage and better tools to endure conditions; the main source of damage was torment, with a bit of burning. Then with PoF they provided a condition weapon based on bleeds with 0 synergies with the core condi Revenant, and without defensive or mobility tools. Kalla was also designed as squishy, with summons than die easily, the stunbreak in the heal, and some other atrocities.

    No legend can stand on it's own.. Doesn't help the fact people always favored Shiro.

    They should have nerfed the damage of power Herald instead of botching the flow of its skills, it would have lessen the weight of the class in PvP without turning it in a trainwreck. I don't buy the argument of "less frequent skills, more weight in their use"; the game is as spammy as before the patch: the only difference is that now it takes longer to kill foes.

    How do you nerf damage on power Herald when it all comes from Core in the first place? Besides, if you put a timeline in compensations of the events that can occur shortly in a fight, you'd see how greatly unfair Mallyx was when untouched compared the new patch. Aside EtD could have gone untouched but now that leaves more classes to be tweaked meanwhile BE was used extremely often, my opinion remain that 25 would have been a better start while PA could have gone untouched with it's vulnerability compared Shiro or Jalis, I guess the following effects of Resistance is considered by Anet to be over exceeding it's cost in the new patch.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 I appreciate the reply and should you take a look at my own thread of suggestions to see that we share a lot in common, however no matter the mixed feelings that I even have, the game is changing and this is the path we have to take for the class to remain balanced in it's design. We can't have offense and defense at the same time like before, this is why legend swapping is even more encouraged after Empty Vessel removal, it was an extremely toxic trait for the class.

    What Revenant was back then is also quite unfair but was equally unfair to the other offerings, at least on the Power side, Condition side was indifferent for a while, unchanged but quite playable. We got small reworks and those we're not even welcomed by it's most favorable users, from where I suppose I was the only one always accepting of the decisions Anet has made.

    At least until those recent ones because now changes have been done in a way that punishes a class that was mostly doing nothing wrong aside one thing while there is still the very famous Guardian that is the cause of those nerfs, yet to be touched still since the hard changes of Scourges that were also supported by the Guardian, that's two classes getting the swift changes where as it's obvious what the root cause of the problems is and yet to be addressed.

    Back to the Condition side however, it was the best changes there was yet here I was among probably 5 players at best playing the class the way I was or at least close to until Shiro got the nerf it deserved (Like Spellbreaker and Warrior did), now we had people running this power crept design of Mallyx that needed some but very minor tweaks, it got more than it should have but that's beside the point, the point was that as soon as Shiro changed, everyone was so scared they looked for an alternative and found this one with Mallyx that I remember everyone so called it subpar but it was clearly not.

    Anyway, as for Herald maybe you did use Forceful Persistence but the meta wasn't it. It was Draconic Echo and as for damage, unless you're Marauder I disagree, Power still hits really hard in the current patch and Chilling Isolation is quite a wonderful rework of the skill with it's consistent high damage unlike Precision Strike RNG.

    To put in perspective for that Herald trait you are talking about though, realistically, how does anyone benefit from that without being at a complete disavantage after? Never would you Impossible Odds + Phase Traversal to Deathstrike, that's extremely unlikely to succeed on fresh start and no Herald has ever done that to be fair when I faced one, an Unrelenting Assault at best or a confident cleave on downed, otherwise that leaves just the facets at barely an increase, so it's hard to see how this trait makes itself to be a problem where as before and after on core, I or anyone would do just as much damage as Herald was the Incensed Response nerf (Among other things too, but this is the biggest one).

    So in the end, I don't think Herald was much of a problem, only how core worked well with it in a way and Core was nerfed too hard because of it, all that was needed is just Incensed Response Might duration or the amount to be nerfed, a shame

    For the weapons I'd love to agree, I used to think so as well but then you run into problems such as not even having the need to create new weapons anymore for the profession if you do that, underwater is extremely niche and Revenant was in desperate need of some extreme variation and this is why we got it this way. We have energy costs on weapons because if we didn't we'd have the same problem Empty Vessel had which is the lack of ever being able to properly CC a Revenant or making players actually play Revenant at all, you could permanently stunbreak or run around with perma protection at little to not risk.

    I agree to the no core condi set, at least a little besides the fact Revenant exceeds extremely well at CQC for Condis and giving it this benefit would probably introduce a lot of balancing issues again, there's a lot of reasons as to why they want use to be invested in Renegade for that Shortbow but have you know that when you'll be playing some more Revenant, notice how weapon swapping is barely if not needed at all. This is the sort of problem we are dealing with because the profession by design was only meant to have one weapon to begin with and they are just starting to try and compensate that around as well.

    That's just food for thought however, meta PvE Renegade has no benefits weapon swapping as a DPS. It can camp bow and deal the same if not more damage, crazy facts.

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2020

    @Shao.7236 said:
    That's just food for thought however, meta PvE Renegade has no benefits weapon swapping as a DPS. It can camp bow and deal the same if not more damage, crazy facts.

    That's completely false. You need both Mace/Axe and Shortbow to deal top tier damage as a DPS cRen. Yes, camping shortbow can deal higher damage than camping Mace/Axe depending on target size, but the two of them are stronger together regardless and have been for a long time now

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2020

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    That's just food for thought however, meta PvE Renegade has no benefits weapon swapping as a DPS. It can camp bow and deal the same if not more damage, crazy facts.

    That's completely false. You need both Mace/Axe and Shortbow to deal top tier damage as a DPS cRen. Yes, camping shortbow can deal higher damage than camping Mace/Axe depending on target size, but the two of them are stronger together regardless and have been for a long time now

    By how much? Shortbow has shorter cooldowns with more attacks that are stronger in both power and conditions, weapon swapping takes 10 seconds. That's like trying to improve damage but swapping it around instead because it locks away the weapon for extra skills that would already be available by the time those are used.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2020

    @Shao.7236 said:
    @Thornwolf.9721 I appreciate the reply and should you take a look at my own thread of suggestions to see that we share a lot in common, however no matter the mixed feelings that I even have, the game is changing and this is the path we have to take for the class to remain balanced in it's design. We can't have offense and defense at the same time like before, this is why legend swapping is even more encouraged after Empty Vessel removal, it was an extremely toxic trait for the class.

    What Revenant was back then is also quite unfair but was equally unfair to the other offerings, at least on the Power side, Condition side was indifferent for a while, unchanged but quite playable. We got small reworks and those we're not even welcomed by it's most favorable users, from where I suppose I was the only one always accepting of the decisions Anet has made.

    At least until those recent ones because now changes have been done in a way that punishes a class that was mostly doing nothing wrong aside one thing while there is still the very famous Guardian that is the cause of those nerfs, yet to be touched still since the hard changes of Scourges that were also supported by the Guardian, that's two classes getting the swift changes where as it's obvious what the root cause of the problems is and yet to be addressed.

    Back to the Condition side however, it was the best changes there was yet here I was among probably 5 players at best playing the class the way I was or at least close to until Shiro got the nerf it deserved (Like Spellbreaker and Warrior did), now we had people running this power crept design of Mallyx that needed some but very minor tweaks, it got more than it should have but that's beside the point, the point was that as soon as Shiro changed, everyone was so scared they looked for an alternative and found this one with Mallyx that I remember everyone so called it subpar but it was clearly not.

    Anyway, as for Herald maybe you did use Forceful Persistence but the meta wasn't it. It was Draconic Echo and as for damage, unless you're Marauder I disagree, Power still hits really hard in the current patch and Chilling Isolation is quite a wonderful rework of the skill with it's consistent high damage unlike Precision Strike RNG.

    To put in perspective for that Herald trait you are talking about though, realistically, how does anyone benefit from that without being at a complete disavantage after? Never would you Impossible Odds + Phase Traversal to Deathstrike, that's extremely unlikely to succeed on fresh start and no Herald has ever done that to be fair when I faced one, an Unrelenting Assault at best or a confident cleave on downed, otherwise that leaves just the facets at barely an increase, so it's hard to see how this trait makes itself to be a problem where as before and after on core, I or anyone would do just as much damage as Herald was the Incensed Response nerf (Among other things too, but this is the biggest one).

    So in the end, I don't think Herald was much of a problem, only how core worked well with it in a way and Core was nerfed too hard because of it, all that was needed is just Incensed Response Might duration or the amount to be nerfed, a shame

    For the weapons I'd love to agree, I used to think so as well but then you run into problems such as not even having the need to create new weapons anymore for the profession if you do that, underwater is extremely niche and Revenant was in desperate need of some extreme variation and this is why we got it this way. We have energy costs on weapons because if we didn't we'd have the same problem Empty Vessel had which is the lack of ever being able to properly CC a Revenant or making players actually play Revenant at all, you could permanently stunbreak or run around with perma protection at little to not risk.

    I agree to the no core condi set, at least a little besides the fact Revenant exceeds extremely well at CQC for Condis and giving it this benefit would probably introduce a lot of balancing issues again, there's a lot of reasons as to why they want use to be invested in Renegade for that Shortbow but have you know that when you'll be playing some more Revenant, notice how weapon swapping is barely if not needed at all. This is the sort of problem we are dealing with because the profession by design was only meant to have one weapon to begin with and they are just starting to try and compensate that around as well.

    That's just food for thought however, meta PvE Renegade has no benefits weapon swapping as a DPS. It can camp bow and deal the same if not more damage, crazy facts.

    You see the biggest issues are they aren't going to make new weapons, elite specs are done. Expansions are done. I doubt we will ever see them unless something changes; So for the foreseeable future this is what we have. And I go against prior revenant (Hot Launch) Being unfair which is why it was hardly played, it was hard to play and had a high skill ceiling which means you couldn't face roll it as easy. Now however? Its brainless. Truly it has become a spam class, and making it cost more energy is not the way to fix it.

    Id take less damage if it meant that we could keep the core of what the class was to be and its idenity, I dislike guild wars because classes feel pointless. Its all the same stuff with just different colors outside of maybe a few (Rev was one) and now it feels less so. Homogenization is never good and as I Stated prior Id rather us be hard to play with less rev's running around than everyone using the class, because its so easy that it has no nuance or special anything to it. I don't care about Raids and I don't really care about the meta, Im a WvW/PvP player and Id rather my class go back to being good at what it was designed for which is competitive play. Rennegade is trash and I've never bothered to use it outside of the PoF launch because it show- cased that the current team had no clue what the rev is/was.

    As it stands now Im not sure what class I want to play, but rev probably won't be it going forward. I really dislike the direction they are taking with it and I can almost promise it will only get worse from here on out; Id rather abandon it then try to stick it out with the bad design concepts they have. Its clear it is now something they don't like nor do they play. These changes were bad, and a lot of the reworks haven't sat well with me but that is because I feel I can do it better and can make it more balanced mainly because Id take a hard look at what other classes are capable of and go "Well if they can do this, then its pretty safe to say this would be ok." Each class should feel different and distinct to one another, and have something that makes it special. Revenant has energy sure, but it has cooldowns too and it has lacking defensive's and honestly with ranger, warrior, guardian and even still messmer/thief existing they out-preform and out do revenant on all fronts.

    The condi rev we know now will be gutted, give it time. Im not worried about where they fall in balance (I dominate them most of the time, the joys of having played it all through out PoF and S4.) It's no longer the class I bought, and its not the class I Wanted or the one who brought me back to the game anymore and I doubt it ever will be again. With no new elite spec and no good things to come in sight, It feels like either A the game is becoming less and less something meant for me or B they simply are making my class something I don't enjoy (Which probably will help the former along)

    You can disagree with me all you like, but its your opinion and honestly no one has ever steered me away from how I Feel and I don't bend. So we shall probably agree to disagree because where you seem to like these changes; I do not and honestly its turning me off from the game. I like how combat feels now and how much slower it is sure, because it allows for more drawn out incursions and that is good. I don't like the core of a class being changed (This has been going on way longer than just this moment, it started even before revenant came out. Originally it was only supposed to have one weapon set just like engie and ele. Lol look how that turned out.) You may think im not as "in tune with A-net's design" but their design has always been flawed from the ground up this game was a mess. And honestly them doing minor changes, large changes or sweeping changes wont change much. I honestly haven't felt excited since the Icebrood announcement because I wanted a Norn expansion and now its secondary norn stuff with a primary charr focus. (Their PvE never held me) and now they are gutting my class of all the cool things that made it fun to play, to look at and to enjoy its fluid gameplay loop in favor of a "Guardian/thief boogaloo" and that to me is disgusting. But different strokes for different folks~

    To add, they didn't need to remove mechanics from the game. Empty vessle was not bad for the game however paired with song of the mists sure it could be; So remove song and keep the stun-break. So revenant can be resistant to stuns and cc a bit better at least than some other classes? That is considered a Hard counter and that is something that exists in every single game. All competitive games have it and its not applicable to PvE because most meta-builds don't use anything outside of raw dps mods. So no the idea that this had to happen is false, it happened because no one at A-net knows what to do with this class and If I spent ten minutes id have it more balanced and maintain its fun and its identity intact because there are ways to scale it back. Ripping a mechanic out is not one of them, that is terrible design and honestly it doesn't surprise me its become the route they are taking. (Might as well remove it from the game A-net, keep doing you.) Everyone keeps talking about balance, the game doesn't feel anymore balanced than before its just slower. A good chunk of the issues haven't been dealt with and many more have been made to feel irrelevant or just simply a waste of time.

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2020

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    That's just food for thought however, meta PvE Renegade has no benefits weapon swapping as a DPS. It can camp bow and deal the same if not more damage, crazy facts.

    That's completely false. You need both Mace/Axe and Shortbow to deal top tier damage as a DPS cRen. Yes, camping shortbow can deal higher damage than camping Mace/Axe depending on target size, but the two of them are stronger together regardless and have been for a long time now

    By how much? Shortbow has shorter cooldowns with more attacks that are stronger in both power and conditions, weapon swapping takes 10 seconds. That's like trying to improve damage but swapping it around instead because it locks away the weapon for extra skills that would already be available by the time those are used.

    It's about a 10%+ish damage increase overall (when factoring in all skills, full rotation) and a 15%+ish damage increase over just camping "the strongest" weapon for whatever hitbox size you're fighting (not factoring in full skill rotation). This also doesn't calculate EtD damage increase, which is affected by having fresh CDs on weapon skills, so should be slightly higher, more on that below

    Really quick analysis on golem with meta build and w/ food and proper buffs, using only weapon skills:

    Average hitbox
    only shortbow 18.5k
    only mace 20k
    both w/o swap sigils 21k
    both w/swap sigils 23k

    Huge hitbox
    only mace 20k
    only shortbow 21.5k
    both w/o swap sigils 23k
    both w/swap sigils 24.5k

    The thing is the weapon swap allows you to have a "burst" of skills every 10s, which is why using both is naturally 5-7% higher without factoring in swap sigils or extra EtD damage. The weapon swap is used after legend swap to deal an extra 1.5 to 2k damage by getting 2 swap sigil procs per legend/weapon swap. Without using weapon swap that isn't possible. And also having fresh CDs on swap is important for EtD to be able to do its highest amount of damage. You need several low cost skills to get the most out of the extra 2 torment per pulse, which is something that wouldn't be possible to achieve by only camping one weapon. This is hard to calculate precisely partially because it also throws off the swap rotation by a few seconds (in the full rotation), but should be a few % increase overall. I'm confident in saying that total damage increase from weapon swapping and using both sets is about 15%+ when comparing "only weapon skill" rotations. It should be about 10% difference in a full rotation, since casting other skills eats into auto attack damage from my above tests (tests could be redone without autos as well to see how much individual skills are doing)

    Whether or not shortbow is stronger is completely dependent on hitbox size and how many/which projectile finishers are picked up by sevenshot. There are plenty of raid bosses where, if you had to camp one, mace would be the better choice. But that's the thing is that no one should be camping one weapon set if you're playing cRen as a dps, because you're losing out on a decent amount of damage (in some cases huge damage too, 20% difference if only camping shortbow on small hitbox vs using both, for example). cRen's ramp time is already huge, so cutting dps further is bad since it takes awhile to even get to the higher levels of damage

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Xca.9721 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Xca.9721 said:
    Anet keeps increasing the energy costs for utility skills rather than nerfing the functionality of them. This is such a lazy handling of balancing things.

    Make your pick, useless skill that costs nothing or useful skill that cost something. I lean towards useful skill that cost something, afaik Mallyx is still good with proper plays so it was the right call instead of making it's skills useless.

    Riposting Shadows is no exception, Shiro is still well beyond playable and just as strong with proper decision making.

    More like "useful skill that costs too much". It´s no fun to play a class that can´t even use half of their utility because the energy is drained by too expensive skills.

    Both Shiro and Mallyx were bloated and too easy to use, there's not much to say otherwise. Jalis was always expensive and always worked fine, so it's no excuse to ignore the rest when everyone's getting the same threatment.

    Even if it is true (and not necessarily is), the solution is not to increase energy, but reduce the bloat. And in the past, both Pain Absorption and CtA cost was reduced specifically cuz the high cost rendered them obsolete.

    This is just a bandied the devs threw cuz they are too lazy to come-up with functional solutions to problems, they unnecessarily created, with previous broken patch.

    Y'all always have the same broken record of a comment, whether it's lazy or not. There's no point in coming up with a better skill when the skill itself is fine and the constant usage is the problem.

    I don't know what you're trying to achieve by saying pressing the same skill over and over at a low cost and effect is better, it's not. It's a ridiculous idea.

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    It's also another case of if it was just energy, people could just spam it, weapons have cooldowns for that and so some skills do for balance, just have to accept it. This class isn't Thief, it's a whole entire different beast of synergy flipping back and forth. Adjustments were needed because the whole game is changing, that doesn't mean costs will keep increasing when they were too low to begin with.

    Actually, you’re slightly wrong here in regards to your Thief comment. The original concept and released Revenant was indeed for the class to be somewhere between Elementalist Attunements (Legend swap) and Thief Initative (energy system) as a throw back to the energy system used in G1.

    What we have today doesn’t really reflect that as well anymore and the class is now way to restricted with double penalties of CDs and higher energy costs. A reduction of abilities is a much better solution and more fitting to the intended Revenant conception and release.

    What double penalties? Are you saying every Elementalist skills are useful or that a Thief can burst 10 times in a row??

    God it would be fun to put perma quarter sec pulse stab and spam weak sauce unrelenting assault, totally healthy gameplay right there, or would you say no lets rework everything to something else even thought the system is fine now? Yeah, absolutely try to balance relevant skills on perma usage based an on energy pool only, that's when you're gonna get higher energy costs. As you were the one saying there is better things to invest than functionality fixes, stop asking the devs to mold the existing ideas to yours. Accept what the Revenant really is, not what you envisioned, you're not gonna get an elementalist thief, what you have is Revenant and this is the concept you should engrave on your mind to suggest ideas about, not scrap and redesign because it doesn't work for you.

    The game has shifted and the classes are adjusted, this is what you're gonna get because this is what works whether you like it or not. Because it doesn't work in your hands doesn't mean it can't in the others.

    @Buran.3796
    After the changes I still have enough energy to do whatever I was doing post bug fix, so I can't agree with that.

    ....that’s not at all what I was saying and you’re taking things to the extremes here with some your sarcastic remarks.

    Revenant is not my idea. It was Anet’s and in particular Roy’s, and what he envisioned. It is not what I envisioned. I’m simply telling you what the class was intended to be from his design. If it gets changed too much, like the direction it’s is currently going, the class is going to lose its identity. That’s all I’m saying. No need for the targeted sarcasm. If you want to take that road, have at it. The road is yours.

    You ask me to stop asking for changes to mold my ideas into the class, yet you opened a thread to ask for just the same thing for your ideas. If you think the class is fine, then don’t open such threads.

    Also, where did I ever say the class doesn’t work for me now or ever? I can answer that. I didn’t. There is no need to make things personal, so please stop.

    Let's see what's the class identity about.. Low cooldowns.. Based on Energy.. The game has been getting a change of pace.. How's that killing identity exactly to have nerfs all around in the entire game? Thief been getting Initiative nerfs with utility CD increase, so has been Elementalist down right to Obsidian Flesh since they have been compared so much, even better still. Nothing plays like Revenant regardless, in fact if we're talking identity by design the class has been sacrificing some efficient of skills by bad design to keep it's identity. (Renegade)

    There's been claims of bad decisions for keeping the game as similar as possible by increasing energy costs instead, for what exactly? Why do people think it's better to ruin a skill that can't be freely swapped around rather than change the pace? That should be something you should know about as the one with more experience to throw around.

    Clearly there's something wrong if there's constant complains and disagreement to the changes, that's not making it personal, just acknowledging that it doesn't work for you to have the nerfs handed out, otherwise why complain or even bother to discuss about it, why not tell me the problem surrounding the idea while putting out something else that have full context of the situation, such as not looking at a clip in a vacuum saying that doesn't represent anything but bad plays when it's the most common synergy.

    Sorry, maybe I expressed the sentiment of "molding" to your ideals wrong, but there was power creep and you refused to acknowledge it thinking it was all fine instead by going as far to mention people just plain suck and should punish, granted it's been taken care of now. There's not a whole lot left for Revenant to be balanced and only improved because of design flaws that are in practice required for relevance. As for the other classes, mostly Guardians conditions that were untouched, Rangers pets and multipliers that were untouched, people saying Necromancers are still having overperforming Lifeforce but I kinda disagree as only the US ICD been problematic.

    And once again, your saying things I didn’t mention.

    And you dif make it personal by several of your remarks toward me in both above replies. So, enjoy that road 😘

    Because you're on a different thread doesn't mean what you said before in another one doesn't have any relevance. That's just hypocritical, let alone the fact you couldn't even calculate energy properly or the behavior of the pool. There's nothing personal about keeping consistency about your thoughts on the matter. Yes, I'll enjoy the road of being honest about something overperforming even if it's my own things, have a good day.

    @Buran.3796 said:

    @Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

    Revenant is not my idea. It was Anet’s and in particular Roy’s, and what he envisioned. It is not what I envisioned. I’m simply telling you what the class was intended to be from his design. If it gets changed too much, like the direction it’s is currently going, the class is going to lose its identity.

    I entirely agree with this. I would remark some milestones about the Revenent identity:

    • The staff was never envisaged as a weapon that roots you in place; Herald already provided that with the block in the shield and we had already lost a block on movement in the off hand sword. They botched the block in the sword "to provide damage instead", then erased the sword damage, made it slow as the hammer, removed the interrupt in the staff #2 and finally made the #5 useless to disengage.

    I don't get your statement on this.

    • Condition Revenant was designed to be slower but tankier, and to have better AoE damage and better tools to endure conditions; the main source of damage was torment, with a bit of burning. Then with PoF they provided a condition weapon based on bleeds with 0 synergies with the core condi Revenant, and without defensive or mobility tools. Kalla was also designed as squishy, with summons than die easily, the stunbreak in the heal, and some other atrocities.

    No legend can stand on it's own.. Doesn't help the fact people always favored Shiro.

    They should have nerfed the damage of power Herald instead of botching the flow of its skills, it would have lessen the weight of the class in PvP without turning it in a trainwreck. I don't buy the argument of "less frequent skills, more weight in their use"; the game is as spammy as before the patch: the only difference is that now it takes longer to kill foes.

    How do you nerf damage on power Herald when it all comes from Core in the first place? Besides, if you put a timeline in compensations of the events that can occur shortly in a fight, you'd see how greatly unfair Mallyx was when untouched compared the new patch. Aside EtD could have gone untouched but now that leaves more classes to be tweaked meanwhile BE was used extremely often, my opinion remain that 25 would have been a better start while PA could have gone untouched with it's vulnerability compared Shiro or Jalis, I guess the following effects of Resistance is considered by Anet to be over exceeding it's cost in the new patch.

    Herald was where a lot of the damage in traits was coming from, its still there too. A 15% increase for having upkeep ticking? Well throw up some upkeep and go to town, they are entirly correct in saying that the elite spec itself was way too loaded. (And dominated as the only real way to play rev for a long time.) The other legends SHOULD be able to stand on their own two feet, legendary heroes of our world brought to fight through a vessel? Its a "Hero" class or an "Elite" class unique to itself, it also comes with an expansion and has been handled poorly since its inception. Each legend had its own roles to fill and elite specs or at least glint was designed to be somewhat like invocation and be able to bend to match your build based on what you wanted to do with it. However inherent problems remain, and some are larger than what anyone in this thread has actually covered.

    • As a rev main Im not enjoying my class anymore, the constant changes have made it become something but not what I picked it up for. (Its what brought me back durring HoT as I grew tired of the other classes. And as a guild wars 1 player I was inherently interested)

      • The changes to staff has made it trash, you could remove it and it wouldn't even be something to worry about. Shield is in the same boat, and short bow is in the same boat and hell even hammer is in a near similar place.
      • We have no core ranged condi-set, which sucks because being stuck in melee when our stun-breaks are unwieldy now and we lost our legend swap stunbreak sucks. Im not terrible with the class but no where near the best; And I find it hard to solo roam now because my class feels purposely kitten because people refused to learn how to play against a rev; And just cried for it to be nerfed so here we are. Changed again and made to be something we weren't intended to be~
      • Rev's kits initially when it came forward with HoT seemed to be catered, built and tailor made for PvP. (Blocks, interrupts, evades, counters for what was coming in the expansion. And unique mechanics built for the class.) Most of which was stripped away so it could be streamlined for Raids because at the time of HoT it had NO PLACE in that gameplay and was hard pressed to find groups with how the game was at the time. (We were built for different play, we needed love not reworks.)
      • Power feels weak as hell now, and condi is going to be gutted with how much QQ is going on about it. Runes of tormenting are a main stapple of the mallyx build to give us some sustain to go along with our build but it STILL Feels too squishy even in Trail-blazers. I can evade sure, and I can counter a lot of whats coming but it just doesn't feel strong anymore. The class feels like kitten right now and honestly it feels like they are trying to kill it and get people away from it so they can remove it, that is how I feel about it right now. I know its not that way but kitten it we just had a good round of reworks; And now another set and I am so sick and tired of having to Re-learn my class with no new toys to play with while having my old toys taken away.
      • Cooldowns on Weapon skills, with no energy cost and no cooldowns on utilities with energy cost would be FINE and should be how it is. We shouldn't need both for both sets as the energy is linked to the legends we are using; The weapons should be cooldowns and something our character is bringing to the table, which thematically would make sense. We are warriors channeling their power; Using it in ways in which we can best make use of them to our skill set and advantages.
      • Weapons should function like trident, and your legend should effect what kind of effects they have. If you run mallyx its condi, if you run shiro its power and so on. This way we could have our weapons mean SO much more in the long run; And be more beneficial so that revenants would be freed up to take whatever weapon we want, so we can be whatever we want. (Makes up for the lack of customization in the utility department.)
      • Bring back some of the old functions of rev weapons (Block on sword? Was good back before they gutted it.) Especially if you want us to be this bruiser type character you seem to be pushing us toward; Right now the class feels disorganized and as if you don't know what you want it to be at all regardless of how it specs. Id rather have functionality, uniqueness and flare as it originally had and an identity for the class and its specs as it was intended than this.

    Its identity is a mystical warrior who harnesses ancient powers few could even dream of using; They aren't using natural powers of tyria and they are using a almost inbetween of all places as a font of power. I personally feel almost all the changes made in this patch were a mistake, you shouldn't be dumbing down the mechanics side of it or the gameplay loop. Damage? Sure. NOT the actual gameplay of a class and the tools in which it can use within said gameplay, you essentially have pigeon holed us once again. And before the QQ starts about Rev, let me remind you several other classes were HARDLY touched this past patch with most of their mechanics being left alone as well their tools with it almost being damage exclusively being what took the hit. Meanwhile we have complete mechanic overhauls for two legends, and Invocation is gutted to make sure we are getting stun locked like everyone else. The class feels slower, but not in the proper way . It feels slower in movement and gameplay on its own, not within the damage. You can still get good bursts and still hit like a truck, that didn't change but what did change is our class loosing a good chunk of what made it fun and unique and that was its "Flow". It was fluid and felt good to play as you could almost dance around the battle with your skills, and use the utility of your kit to out maneuver your enemy. Now? Pfft its the same as every other class, it has less tools that both guardian and warrior with guardian honestly being the only heavy that is still worth its weight. Warrior got hit hard, and is in a rocky place and now we are too so It doesn't surprise me that many people are upset and are asking "Why"? I myself have moved over to another class to dabble to see what will come of this, as I know mallyx is on fast track to getting gutted hard. If they nerf condi in the current state rev is in, the class is dead because power sucks. So as a rev main my inspiration to play the game is at an all time low....

    Feels like no one who knows, cares or plays the class at all made these changes. And that without being disrespectful it was someone who was mad that a rev killed them, so they decided to end the class as it was to ensure it could never have the capability of killing its precious baby again. (A bit of salt, and a bit of anger coming through here. But that is how this feels to me.)

    The trident treatment to all of our arsenal would be absolutely beautiful!

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    The class just feels like a mess. Its hard to synergize a build now between legends, traits, and weapons. They are all pulling in opposite directions and almost all of them lack the necessities for a build, but the legends are heavy on thematics that don't synergize with others, but provide some cool gimmicks. Its just a straight up clunk fest in here. Sorry for the scatterbrained ramble.

    True. Class feels such a mess that you cannot really build something out of it. You need to rely on the buggy game mechanics or items etc. Rev was a great idea but a really bad execution and it really does not bring joy to me anymore. Ventari orb mechanic was really bad from the beginning but devs ignored that. Power shiro had been the only viable build in pvp/dueling for so many years, jalis had several bugs, sword and hammer bugs hadremained for such a long time that I was used to them really. People on the forums had great ideas about the class yet again ignored. That trident idea has been around here for so long yet again ignored. I can write more and more but you know, "the definition of insanity" thing.

  • I still feel like so much of Revenants problems are coming from its core design flaws.

    • Why have BOTH cooldowns AND energy? We have pretty long cooldowns with pretty high energy costs, worst of both worlds.
    • You have to decide between using utility skills OR weapon skills. Give me another professions where when you use an elite skill, you are unable to do anything else afterwards? Usually it feels like you just used your trump card, but with Rev, it is the opposite.
    • Legend swap is there to compensate for the lack of utility skills per legend. But as others have mentioned, what if one is dedicated to one specific role (Ventari)? You swap out of it and.... what?
    • I still cannot get over the fact that a profession based on mist-lore and magic does not have access to portals... But THIEF DOES????

    Rev, to me is the absolute epitome of class fantasy, but gameplay wise it is so terrible, that I have so much trouble loving it and maining it... Hope that one day it changes.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zallesz.1650 said:
    I still feel like so much of Revenants problems are coming from its core design flaws.

    • Why have BOTH cooldowns AND energy? We have pretty long cooldowns with pretty high energy costs, worst of both worlds.
    • You have to decide between using utility skills OR weapon skills. Give me another professions where when you use an elite skill, you are unable to do anything else afterwards? Usually it feels like you just used your trump card, but with Rev, it is the opposite.
    • Legend swap is there to compensate for the lack of utility skills per legend. But as others have mentioned, what if one is dedicated to one specific role (Ventari)? You swap out of it and.... what?
    • I still cannot get over the fact that a profession based on mist-lore and magic does not have access to portals... But THIEF DOES????

    Rev, to me is the absolute epitome of class fantasy, but gameplay wise it is so terrible, that I have so much trouble loving it and maining it... Hope that one day it changes.

    The core concept was fine, and gameplay wise, they were fine for awhile.
    It's only after numerous complaints of "omg Rev op" did all the nerfs start coming in.

    Anet also likes nerf batting the wrong thing.

    OH Sword was notorious for its damage, but Anet decides to nerf Shiro.
    True Nature Mallyx is being abused at this very moment and is widely agreed to be considered "OP" for Condi Herald but Anet decides to increase the cost of Mallyx.

    See a pattern here?
    Instead of nerfing the problem itself, they almost always choose to indirectly nerf it by making key components of gameplay harder to use, and in doing so, hope to tone it down.

    WHICH IS FINE IF THEY DIDN'T DECIDE TO NERF OH SWORD ANYWAY, SEVERAL PATCHES LATER, AND DIDN'T REVERT ANY PAST NERFS.

    Now OH Sword has cooldowns which match the weapons of other classes :
    Sword 4 is 15 second cooldown, has a long windup, hits less targets and damage got nerfed.
    Sword 5 is 18 seconds cooldown, a very noticeable delay between first and second hits, and has the damage nerfed.

    And Shiro got nerfed anyway for good measure cos why not.

    These days yu never see Shiro being fielded anymore, because the one good reason to use Shiro is now gone due to the extreme Energy costs tied to it, and in addition to Shiro's existing problems (Like a 50 Energy Elite and very unreliable heal), Shiro is as good as dead.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @zallesz.1650 said:
    I still feel like so much of Revenants problems are coming from its core design flaws.

    • Why have BOTH cooldowns AND energy? We have pretty long cooldowns with pretty high energy costs, worst of both worlds.
    • You have to decide between using utility skills OR weapon skills. Give me another professions where when you use an elite skill, you are unable to do anything else afterwards? Usually it feels like you just used your trump card, but with Rev, it is the opposite.
    • Legend swap is there to compensate for the lack of utility skills per legend. But as others have mentioned, what if one is dedicated to one specific role (Ventari)? You swap out of it and.... what?
    • I still cannot get over the fact that a profession based on mist-lore and magic does not have access to portals... But THIEF DOES????

    Rev, to me is the absolute epitome of class fantasy, but gameplay wise it is so terrible, that I have so much trouble loving it and maining it... Hope that one day it changes.

    The core concept was fine, and gameplay wise, they were fine for awhile.
    It's only after numerous complaints of "omg Rev op" did all the nerfs start coming in.

    Anet also likes nerf batting the wrong thing.

    OH Sword was notorious for its damage, but Anet decides to nerf Shiro.
    True Nature Mallyx is being abused at this very moment and is widely agreed to be considered "OP" for Condi Herald but Anet decides to increase the cost of Mallyx.

    See a pattern here?
    Instead of nerfing the problem itself, they almost always choose to indirectly nerf it by making key components of gameplay harder to use, and in doing so, hope to tone it down.

    WHICH IS FINE IF THEY DIDN'T DECIDE TO NERF OH SWORD ANYWAY, SEVERAL PATCHES LATER, AND DIDN'T REVERT ANY PAST NERFS.

    Now OH Sword has cooldowns which match the weapons of other classes :
    Sword 4 is 15 second cooldown, has a long windup, hits less targets and damage got nerfed.
    Sword 5 is 18 seconds cooldown, a very noticeable delay between first and second hits, and has the damage nerfed.

    And Shiro got nerfed anyway for good measure cos why not.

    These days yu never see Shiro being fielded anymore, because the one good reason to use Shiro is now gone due to the extreme Energy costs tied to it, and in addition to Shiro's existing problems (Like a 50 Energy Elite and very unreliable heal), Shiro is as good as dead.

    Don’t forget we also have an energy cost on those weapon skills, which are supposed to keep those CD costs low. Lol. I think they can get rid of energy costs now on those skills.

  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2020

    Yup.

    I really don't see the point of having Energy if it leads Revenant unable to use both Weapons and Utilities.

    Thief's Initiatives affect weapons only leaving utilities to just CD.

    I'm fine with Revenant using Energy for literally everything including autoattacks, but for god's sake let us play the class, not wait for the resource.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @Xca.9721 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Xca.9721 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Xca.9721 said:
    Anet keeps increasing the energy costs for utility skills rather than nerfing the functionality of them. This is such a lazy handling of balancing things.

    Make your pick, useless skill that costs nothing or useful skill that cost something. I lean towards useful skill that cost something, afaik Mallyx is still good with proper plays so it was the right call instead of making it's skills useless.

    Riposting Shadows is no exception, Shiro is still well beyond playable and just as strong with proper decision making.

    More like "useful skill that costs too much". It´s no fun to play a class that can´t even use half of their utility because the energy is drained by too expensive skills.

    Both Shiro and Mallyx were bloated and too easy to use, there's not much to say otherwise. Jalis was always expensive and always worked fine, so it's no excuse to ignore the rest when everyone's getting the same threatment.

    That´s my point, when they are too bloated you should nerf the functionality or increase the CD, not the energy which worsens fluid gameplay

    Cooldowns should only be minimal to avoid spamming abuse.

  • Lonewolf Kai.3682Lonewolf Kai.3682 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Xca.9721 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Xca.9721 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Xca.9721 said:
    Anet keeps increasing the energy costs for utility skills rather than nerfing the functionality of them. This is such a lazy handling of balancing things.

    Make your pick, useless skill that costs nothing or useful skill that cost something. I lean towards useful skill that cost something, afaik Mallyx is still good with proper plays so it was the right call instead of making it's skills useless.

    Riposting Shadows is no exception, Shiro is still well beyond playable and just as strong with proper decision making.

    More like "useful skill that costs too much". It´s no fun to play a class that can´t even use half of their utility because the energy is drained by too expensive skills.

    Both Shiro and Mallyx were bloated and too easy to use, there's not much to say otherwise. Jalis was always expensive and always worked fine, so it's no excuse to ignore the rest when everyone's getting the same threatment.

    That´s my point, when they are too bloated you should nerf the functionality or increase the CD, not the energy which worsens fluid gameplay

    Cooldowns should only be minimal to avoid spamming abuse.

    Exactly. This is why I’ve been staying Rev is double penalized for skill use. High CDs and high Energy costs.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    Cooldowns should only be minimal to avoid spamming abuse.

    Spamming has nothing to to with cooldowns. This evening was testing shor bow with Jalis/Mallyx; when I was in Jalis casting the elite the Rune of the Sunless procced fear, then I did cast short bow 5, swapped to Mallyx, casted Call to Anguish, swapped to mace + axe, casted Teamporal Rift followed by Frigid Blitz... That's a chain of 5 cc skills in a row, BUT increasing the internal cooldown of each one of those will do 0 to prevent the spam, because I'm not spamming the same skill. Reducing the availability of breakstuns and stability in the game has a more direct effect on how vulnerable the people feels to spamming than the cooldown of particular skills.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @Buran.3796 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    Cooldowns should only be minimal to avoid spamming abuse.

    Spamming has nothing to to with cooldowns. This evening was testing shor bow with Jalis/Mallyx; when I was in Jalis casting the elite the Rune of the Sunless procced fear, then I did cast short bow 5, swapped to Mallyx, casted Call to Anguish, swapped to mace + axe, casted Teamporal Rift followed by Frigid Blitz... That's a chain of 5 cc skills in a row, BUT increasing the internal cooldown of each one of those will do 0 to prevent the spam, because I'm not spamming the same skill. Reducing the availability of breakstuns and stability in the game has a more direct effect on how vulnerable the people feels to spamming than the cooldown of particular skills.

    Cooldown do solve spamming abuse. What you describe is availability of the same feature on multiple skills.
    If you were to have only 1 CC, but with no cooldown, you would be able to abuse spamming it.