Let's discuss Soulbeast's latest Pet changes! — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Let's discuss Soulbeast's latest Pet changes!

As soon as the balance patch hits, first things being said and being changed in ranger are......

Soulbeasts, long standing without a tradeoff, are now receiving theirs—they lose combat access to a second pet and must choose carefully which pet they're going to be bonded with in battle. We're also enhancing several core ranger traits and some select weapon skills that we felt were on the weak side.

  • Soulbeast: Soulbeasts can no longer swap pets while in combat. Entering and leaving beastmode with your pet now counts as a pet swap for the purposes of the Clarion Bond and Zephyr's Speed traits.>

So... i want to discuss this.
im going to start with a question here:

WHAT IS THE POINT OF HAVING A 2ND PET IF I CAN'T USE IT UNLESS ITS OUTSIDE OF COMBAT?

so, what i am going to do with a 2nd pet? literally since the patch hit i have NEVER hit the pet swap, 90% of the time i couldn't because i was in combat and the other 10% of the time it was absolutely not needed to do so.

again im asking, so what is the point of having a 2nd pet if i can't use it unless its outside of combat?!
its like telling deadeye "one of your skills makes you crouch down while performing it... so now you can't crouch (use that skill) unless you are out of endurance so it will sync well with restoring endurance".

what do you think about this "lets just push something so it will look like we are working on balance" change?.

Comments

  • Ashkew.6584Ashkew.6584 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2020

    just use second pet for plasma or stealth out of combat, or you get a pet that helps you better vs a condi matchup and a pet vs a powermatchup and swap to the one you need

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭

    Elite specs are no longer supposed to be flat upgrades on top of all your existing class mechanics. If you want to have access to the unique elite spec mechanic, you will have to give up some of your core stuff for it now.

    Soulbeast gave up absolutely nothing, they just got another button added to their gameplay. They needed to get brought in line with other elite spec designs and removing pet swap during combat fits both gameplaywise and thematically. It was a good change.

    And like Sobx already pointed out, my engineer also has weapon swap out of combat only. It is for convenience, if you are going to change your build, you can have another fitting pet for that build pre selected so you just have to swap ooc instead of chosing the pet anew all the time.

  • DarkFlopy.8197DarkFlopy.8197 Member ✭✭
    edited March 5, 2020

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @DarkFlopy.8197 said:
    im going to start with a question here:

    WHAT IS THE POINT OF HAVING A 2ND PET IF I CAN'T USE IT UNLESS ITS OUTSIDE OF COMBAT?

    The same point eng/eles have their weapon swap available OOC. Or the same point you can hot-key swap build templates OOC. For convenience. Glad I could help o/

    its like telling deadeye "one of your skills makes you crouch down while performing it... so now you can't crouch (use that skill) unless you are out of endurance so it will sync well with restoring endurance".

    wat

    i dont know man im annoyed by this change, i cant think straight lol.

    @Ashkew.6584 said:
    just use second pet for plasma or stealth out of combat, or you get a pet that helps you better vs a condi matchup and a pet vs a powermatchup and swap to the one you need

    i have been using siamoth for years so thats absolutely my best option, but you missed the idea... the "just use second pet" you suggested wont work because YOU CAN'T USE THE SECOND PET IN COMBAT so out of combat its not relevant.

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    I understand the points. I just don't like them. I also disagree with this change fitting thematically. But, that's my opinion.

    Why don't you think they fit thematically?
    The Soulbeast is someone who has reached such deep understanding with his companion that they are able to fuse into one body. Basically the ultimate form of bonding with your pet.

    I think it fits thematically that a Soulbeast just reaches this level of understanding with one pet. Not having a bunch of pets he can say "yeah, I have a bunch of soulmates out there I can fuse with". Because it is exactly this, they are soulmates. This should be something unique, something that you have to focus really hard on to achieve with someone.

    so how about this:
    you choose with which pet you want to be able to bond with (right click its portrait or something...), lets say you marked pet #1 then allow soulbeasts to swap to their other pet in combat but they CAN'T bond with it because it was not marked as a pet they will bond with before they entered combat.
    i think this is much more fitting that way you use both pets and only bond with the "special one".

  • @DarkFlopy.8197 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    I think it fits thematically that a Soulbeast just reaches this level of understanding with one pet. Not having a bunch of pets he can say "yeah, I have a bunch of soulmates out there I can fuse with". Because it is exactly this, they are soulmates. This should be something unique, something that you have to focus really hard on to achieve with someone.

    so how about this:
    you choose with which pet you want to be able to bond with (right click its portrait or something...), lets say you marked pet #1 then allow soulbeasts to swap to their other pet in combat but they CAN'T bond with it because it was not marked as a pet they will bond with before they entered combat.
    i think this is much more fitting that way you use both pets and only bond with the "special one".

    i think you’re just overcomplicating it now.

    This change follows Anets vision of elite specs and follows the same path other nerfed elite specs took. It’s a big change and it will take more than a week to feel normal again. Yes, it sucks we got nerfed, but it’s better for the overall health of the game. Every other elite spec that got nerfed is still more than fine

  • @AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:

    @DarkFlopy.8197 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    I think it fits thematically that a Soulbeast just reaches this level of understanding with one pet. Not having a bunch of pets he can say "yeah, I have a bunch of soulmates out there I can fuse with". Because it is exactly this, they are soulmates. This should be something unique, something that you have to focus really hard on to achieve with someone.

    so how about this:
    you choose with which pet you want to be able to bond with (right click its portrait or something...), lets say you marked pet #1 then allow soulbeasts to swap to their other pet in combat but they CAN'T bond with it because it was not marked as a pet they will bond with before they entered combat.
    i think this is much more fitting that way you use both pets and only bond with the "special one".

    i think you’re just overcomplicating it now.

    This change follows Anets vision of elite specs and follows the same path other nerfed elite specs took. It’s a big change and it will take more than a week to feel normal again. Yes, it sucks we got nerfed, but it’s better for the overall health of the game. Every other elite spec that got nerfed is still more than fine

    hmmm true.
    perhaps later on we will feel normal again, about the overall health of the game... im not sure about that because this patch brought a lot of immortal and highly sustainable builds out there and its kinda making the meta not very fun.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Considering some of soulbeasts biggest rival matchups like holo have been nerfed into oblivion, same for mirage, it's not kind of easier to go up against them.

    These days, LOS and kiting is more important. Soulbeast still works fine. Only difference is you can't be fighting and suddenly decide to bail by swapping to bird and swoop away. But in actual fights soulbeast is still doing fine

  • Dami.5046Dami.5046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    For crying out loud, at least give us back the pet swop in PvE. It is driving me up the wall. Why are they making this so hard?
    Oh and btw I am still getting issues down again on dis-mount that's if my ranger dis-mounts to start with. But's that's another thread.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dami.5046 said:
    For crying out loud, at least give us back the pet swop in PvE. It is driving me up the wall. Why are they making this so hard?
    Oh and btw I am still getting issues down again on dis-mount that's if my ranger dis-mounts to start with. But's that's another thread.

    Doesn't seem fair for the other classes to give rangers special treatment.
    Necromancers won't get their base shroud additionally to their new shroud mechanics.
    Engineers won't get their elite toolbelt spells back when using elite specs.

    And so on. A trade off for an elite spec should apply to all game modes. Why should rangers get special treatment over everyone else?

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Honestly, and I say this as someone who loves ranger, this should have been the way soulbeast was from the start. Anet should have marketed SB as the elite spec that forms a strong bond with one pet and is able to merge with it. Instead, they gave it two pets, allowed players to grow accustomed to having two pets, and then took it away. Narually, there's going to be some backlash.

    I do believe that this was the right choice, however I do not like that this has the effect of also dumbing down the class. Dumbed down means less fun, and a game should, above all else, be fun.

    This here hits the nail. This should have been how the Soulbeast worked from the very beginning, people would have been ok with it. But when mechanics are taken away after years, of course this will upset.

    Imagine if, for example, the Reaper would have released with the option to use both shroud forms and then they get their base shroud taken away and replaced with the reapers shroud solely. People would have complained here, too. But since Reaper worked like that from the very beginning, there was nothing taken away from them. They didn't play for years with the option to use more and then got it ripped from them.

  • LughLongArm.5460LughLongArm.5460 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Honestly, and I say this as someone who loves ranger, this should have been the way soulbeast was from the start. Anet should have marketed SB as the elite spec that forms a strong bond with one pet and is able to merge with it. Instead, they gave it two pets, allowed players to grow accustomed to having two pets, and then took it away. Narually, there's going to be some backlash.

    I do believe that this was the right choice, however I do not like that this has the effect of also dumbing down the class. Dumbed down means less fun, and a game should, above all else, be fun.

    Totally agree, thematically it was cleat that Soul-beast should have been a one pet specialization to begin with. It even got the mechanic to work around pet death. It is also pointless to give it the option to swap pets out of combat. It should have been one pet and that's it.
    Problem with Soulbeast is not the merge mechanic. Problem is that most of the pet skills implantation for for the Soulbeast feel like useless filler skills, which is a shame as it gave A.net the opportunity to make bad core pets shine. Another 2 big issues with Soulbesat is non exist trait selection for PvP and dagger lacking functionality.

    Soulbeast can be made to be tons of fun even with one pet, if anything they can really make it into a strength that gives flavor and identity for each pet/build.

  • @LughLongArm.5460 said:

    Totally agree, thematically it was cleat that Soul-beast should have been a one pet specialization to begin with. It even got the mechanic to work around pet death. It is also pointless to give it the option to swap pets out of combat. It should have been one pet and that's it.
    Problem with Soulbeast is not the merge mechanic.
    ...

    I wholeheartedly disagree, while thematically it fits to merge with a single pet, balance wise the ranger was neutered from the start in large scale combat, effectively rendering the profession's core mechanic as useless as clones (but let's not also get into mesmer balance issues...)

    Soulbeast practically gave the ranger its' core mechanic back in group combat. A most welcome change for WvW and to some extent PvE world bosses.

    As far as tradeoffs go, considering F5 revives the pet, changing the cooldown on pet swapping to 1 minute by default for soulbeasts would've been a much more elegant change, and, more importantly, wouldn't have dumbed down the ranger as much as it did. I would argue it would've instead heightened the skill ceiling.

  • Bealis.6023Bealis.6023 Member ✭✭

    Yes, your second pet is just hanging there, it seems that the change isnt elaborated to cover that in pve enviroment. Moreover, I believe that these tradeoffs in general are unhealthy for gameplay. You basically tune down elite spec to have some incentive to play core profession, but it doesnt add anything to have more fun in experimenting with builds.
    Ive been actually playing with this idea of having bonus while one has 3 core specs: for example if ranger had wilderness survival, nature magic and beastmastery, he/she would get water aura. The bonus would be different based on the combination of the 3 lines. Now thats the kind of incentive I would like .)

  • Dami.5046Dami.5046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2020

    I really wish non ranger players would BUTT OUT.
    I am talking about PvE. Why does it matter?
    Please stop this eternal flaming of this class.

  • Dami.5046Dami.5046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Dami.5046 said:
    For crying out loud, at least give us back the pet swop in PvE. It is driving me up the wall. Why are they making this so hard?
    Oh and btw I am still getting issues down again on dis-mount that's if my ranger dis-mounts to start with. But's that's another thread.

    Doesn't seem fair for the other classes to give rangers special treatment.
    Necromancers won't get their base shroud additionally to their new shroud mechanics.
    Engineers won't get their elite toolbelt spells back when using elite specs.

    And so on. A trade off for an elite spec should apply to all game modes. Why should rangers get special treatment over everyone else?

    Well give them back if they are affecting their PVE! I am not talking about any other classes on a ranger thread FGS.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DarkFlopy.8197 said:

    again im asking, so what is the point of having a 2nd pet if i can't use it unless its outside of combat?!

    I myself am unhappy with the lazy sort of change implemented to Soulbeast, but this is a pretty stupid question.

    Why does Rev have access to 5 Legends when they can only use 2?
    Why does every Ele and Engi have weapon swap when they can only use 1 set in combat?
    Why do we have over 27 traits to pick at a time but can only use 9 in combat?

    Now for actual discussion about pet balancing.

    Soulbeast has long been considered "stronger Ranger" because it literally is similar to Ranger but has beast mode, giving them access to potentially 6 extra skills

    What makes me scratch my head is that Druids are the one which got the "weaker pets" tradeoff when according to lore, Soulbeasts are the ones who are supposed to have "weaker pets" which results in the training of the Soulbeast discipline to merge with their pets.

    In fact, it even reflects in combat well now, because Soulbeasts now have to keep track of their own health and their pet's health, and merge to save them or else their pet is put out of the fight for awhile.

    I'm just baffled as to why Druid's tradeoff was simply "weaker pets" while Soulbeast's tradeoff is "less versatility"

    If it were up to me, I would give Soulbeasts "weaker pets" and give Druid another sort of tradeoff.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @DarkFlopy.8197 said:

    again im asking, so what is the point of having a 2nd pet if i can't use it unless its outside of combat?!

    I myself am unhappy with the lazy sort of change implemented to Soulbeast, but this is a pretty stupid question.

    Why does Rev have access to 5 Legends when they can only use 2?
    Why does every Ele and Engi have weapon swap when they can only use 1 set in combat?
    Why do we have over 27 traits to pick at a time but can only use 9 in combat?

    Now for actual discussion about pet balancing.

    Soulbeast has long been considered "stronger Ranger" because it literally is similar to Ranger but has beast mode, giving them access to potentially 6 extra skills

    What makes me scratch my head is that Druids are the one which got the "weaker pets" tradeoff when according to lore, Soulbeasts are the ones who are supposed to have "weaker pets" which results in the training of the Soulbeast discipline to merge with their pets.

    In fact, it even reflects in combat well now, because Soulbeasts now have to keep track of their own health and their pet's health, and merge to save them or else their pet is put out of the fight for awhile.

    I'm just baffled as to why Druid's tradeoff was simply "weaker pets" while Soulbeast's tradeoff is "less versatility"

    If it were up to me, I would give Soulbeasts "weaker pets" and give Druid another sort of tradeoff.

    The trade off they gave Soulbeast makes more sense mechanically and thematically.

    Thematically, it makes sense because the Soulbeast and his pet are supposed to have a much deeper connection. They reached such a strong bond that they are able to fuse into one body. Thematically, it makes sense that you are able to reach this strong relationship by focusing on one pet solely. You have to invest all your time and effort into understanding your companion.

    Mechanically, it makes sense because the fusion is supposed to give you the stat advantage. Weakening your pet would also mean weakening the stats you get from fusing with them. And since the Soulbeast is supposed to fight in the middle of the enemy, it benefits you to get as many stats as possible to increase both, your offensive and defensive abilities. The primary focus of Soulbeast is combat, so why would you want to decrease their combat strength by weakening the pet?

    Meanwhile the focus of the Druid is support and healing. Decreasing their combat strength makes sense, they are a healer, why should they be able to deal as much damage as other specs of the Ranger. Also since the Druid is able to heal their allies, including their pet, the pet is also not as dependant on their own defensive stats since it can get backed up by the Druid to stay alive.

  • Deax.1572Deax.1572 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2020

    I would have hanged the Soul Beast so that it doesn't have pets at all and instead swaps to "Beast spirits" you could select 2 spirits just like pets to swap to. You'd be permanently in beast mode, but get stat buff and access to pet skills. Think of it as revenant, but with Beast spirits changing your "attunement" from Stout to Ferocious and changing the F1,2,3 skills. In small scale fights not having smoke scales field and utility would be nerf, but it would feel more unique and not just "you're a ranger, but you merge with pets"
    And druid needs a change too. Pets under their control need to become celestial when avatar is active giving them some sort of ability, something like "Your pets are weaker, but while in celestial avatar form your pet applies X to allies or heals nearby allies by X amount for X duration or does X to foes and has 40% reduced damage/condi taken." Something that makes your pets as well as you ACTUALLY support people and not be a weak, useless CC bot and nothing more.

  • Deadly Moonshiner.1354Deadly Moonshiner.1354 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2020

    Maining a soulbeast, I disliked the "one pet in combat" at first but ultimately I grew accustomed to it. The player just need to be more careful/smart when to swap pet. In a way, it requires a bit more complex play style with more situation awareness so you don't end up with wrong pet when getting into combat mode. Despite damage nerfs, I think SB is still viable specs and playing soulbeast is still fun for me.

    Almorra (to Bangar): Kiss my hairy A$$!

  • Tazer.2157Tazer.2157 Member ✭✭✭

    Give up on the soulbeast. It is a dying spec, I barely even see it on PvP these days. Maybe once the devs see no one playing the class, they will revert the change.

  • @Kodama.6453 said:
    Soulbeast gave up absolutely nothing, they just got another button added to their gameplay. They needed to get brought in line with other elite spec designs and removing pet swap during combat fits both gameplaywise and thematically. It was a good change.

    I've been quite confused about this update since they first revealed where they were going with soulbeast. It's had a tradeoff since PoF first came out, one of the most glaring ones out there: when you merge to get your extra skills/stats, you don't have your pet there anymore. That seems like a pretty explicit tradeoff to me.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2020

    @Aaron Forestman.4758 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:
    Soulbeast gave up absolutely nothing, they just got another button added to their gameplay. They needed to get brought in line with other elite spec designs and removing pet swap during combat fits both gameplaywise and thematically. It was a good change.

    I've been quite confused about this update since they first revealed where they were going with soulbeast. It's had a tradeoff since PoF first came out, one of the most glaring ones out there: when you merge to get your extra skills/stats, you don't have your pet there anymore. That seems like a pretty explicit tradeoff to me.

    Not exactly.

    The thing with Soulbeast was that they were able to play like a core Ranger. Nothing was forcing you to merge with your pet, you could have your pet out attacking all the time if you want it to. So even if the pet disappears when merging, it is not really a trade off. It is giving you another option you can use if you desire and it benefits you, but you still had the choice.
    And having additional choices is always good. It was not really a disadvantage for you to get the option to merge with your pet.

    Other classes had to actually really give something up permanently, without the option to chose. The equivalent of what the Soulbeast had for the Necromancer, as an example, would have been not to replace his death shroud with reapers shroud, but giving him both shrouds available, with death shroud staying on F1 and reapers shroud becoming a new F2 button.
    It would have been the same situation like the Soulbeast. Both shrouds consume your life force, so you won't be able to use both shrouds too frequently because of your lacking resource. But having the option to either use death shroud or reapers shroud would have been an advantage and there wouldn't have been a trade off anymore.

    Another example: Holosmith
    If Holosmith would have the same "trade off" Soulbeast had back then, then they wouldn't have replaced his F5 skill with the Holoforge, but give it to him as a F6 skill instead. Because by your logic he obviously had a trade off since using Holoforge would replace your weapon skills with the Holoforge skills, meaning you can't use your weapons in this mode. But this isn't a trade off in their sense, Holosmith would still have all the same stuff the Engineer has, but more, thanks to the Holoforge.

    This is the thing here. Giving up something permanently, meaning that it is not at all available to you anymore. Many classes already had such system before Soulbeast got theirs.
    Scrapper and Holosmith give up their F5 skill permanently (Scrapper additionally has permanent 180 vitality removed)
    Reaper and Scourge give up their death shroud on F1
    Firebrands and Dragonhunters give up their virtues on F1-F3
    And so on. Soulbeast never really gave up a mechanic, they just got another button added, but they still had everything avaiable at their disposal as the Ranger.

  • Diak Atoli.2085Diak Atoli.2085 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Aaron Forestman.4758 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:
    Soulbeast gave up absolutely nothing, they just got another button added to their gameplay. They needed to get brought in line with other elite spec designs and removing pet swap during combat fits both gameplaywise and thematically. It was a good change.

    I've been quite confused about this update since they first revealed where they were going with soulbeast. It's had a tradeoff since PoF first came out, one of the most glaring ones out there: when you merge to get your extra skills/stats, you don't have your pet there anymore. That seems like a pretty explicit tradeoff to me.

    Not exactly.

    The thing with Soulbeast was that they were able to play like a core Ranger. Nothing was forcing you to merge with your pet, you could have your pet out attacking all the time if you want it to. So even if the pet disappears when merging, it is not really a trade off. It is giving you another option you can use if you desire and it benefits you, but you still had the choice.
    And having additional choices is always good. It was not really a disadvantage for you to get the option to merge with your pet.

    Other classes had to actually really give something up permanently, without the option to chose. The equivalent of what the Soulbeast had for the Necromancer, as an example, would have been not to replace his death shroud with reapers shroud, but giving him both shrouds available, with death shroud staying on F1 and reapers shroud becoming a new F2 button.
    It would have been the same situation like the Soulbeast. Both shrouds consume your life force, so you won't be able to use both shrouds too frequently because of your lacking resource. But having the option to either use death shroud or reapers shroud would have been an advantage and there wouldn't have been a trade off anymore.

    Another example: Holosmith
    If Holosmith would have the same "trade off" Soulbeast had back then, then they wouldn't have replaced his F5 skill with the Holoforge, but give it to him as a F6 skill instead. Because by your logic he obviously had a trade off since using Holoforge would replace your weapon skills with the Holoforge skills, meaning you can't use your weapons in this mode. But this isn't a trade off in their sense, Holosmith would still have all the same stuff the Engineer has, but more, thanks to the Holoforge.

    This is the thing here. Giving up something permanently, meaning that it is not at all available to you anymore. Many classes already had such system before Soulbeast got theirs.
    Scrapper and Holosmith give up their F5 skill permanently (Scrapper additionally has permanent 180 vitality removed)
    Reaper and Scourge give up their death shroud on F1
    Firebrands and Dragonhunters give up their virtues on F1-F3
    And so on. Soulbeast never really gave up a mechanic, they just got another button added, but they still had everything avaiable at their disposal as the Ranger.

    Beastmode also revived your pet on a 10-second cooldown, where as core ranger had a 60-second cooldown when swapping a downed pet. Unless I'm misremembering, that was patched in PvP/WvW though.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @DarkFlopy.8197 said:

    again im asking, so what is the point of having a 2nd pet if i can't use it unless its outside of combat?!

    I myself am unhappy with the lazy sort of change implemented to Soulbeast, but this is a pretty stupid question.

    Why does Rev have access to 5 Legends when they can only use 2?
    Why does every Ele and Engi have weapon swap when they can only use 1 set in combat?
    Why do we have over 27 traits to pick at a time but can only use 9 in combat?

    Now for actual discussion about pet balancing.

    Soulbeast has long been considered "stronger Ranger" because it literally is similar to Ranger but has beast mode, giving them access to potentially 6 extra skills

    What makes me scratch my head is that Druids are the one which got the "weaker pets" tradeoff when according to lore, Soulbeasts are the ones who are supposed to have "weaker pets" which results in the training of the Soulbeast discipline to merge with their pets.

    In fact, it even reflects in combat well now, because Soulbeasts now have to keep track of their own health and their pet's health, and merge to save them or else their pet is put out of the fight for awhile.

    I'm just baffled as to why Druid's tradeoff was simply "weaker pets" while Soulbeast's tradeoff is "less versatility"

    If it were up to me, I would give Soulbeasts "weaker pets" and give Druid another sort of tradeoff.

    Where does it say in the lore that Soulbeasts have weaker pets?

    The choice of tradeoff for druids was probably done because it was possible to have builds which were build for extreme durability while still having a fairly high damage output through the pets (which had their own stats independent of the druid's gear). Reducing the damage output on pets directly addresses this issue. Personally, I think there are probably more elegant ways of doing it, but it was a tradeoff chosen to directly address a problem that was observed at the time.

  • JorneMormel.9850JorneMormel.9850 Member ✭✭
    edited March 11, 2020

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    Where does it say in the lore that Soulbeasts have weaker pets?

    The choice of tradeoff for druids was probably done because it was possible to have builds which were build for extreme durability while still having a fairly high damage output through the pets (which had their own stats independent of the druid's gear). Reducing the damage output on pets directly addresses this issue. Personally, I think there are probably more elegant ways of doing it, but it was a tradeoff chosen to directly address a problem that was observed at the time.

    You really don't want to compare lore, especially when it comes to game balance decisions.

    In Guild Wars the ranger's primary attribute, and with that the profession's mechanic, was to lower the energy cost of skills. The pet mechanic was unique to rangers, but also entirely optional.

    Damage scaling on the ranger in GW2 has always been a little lower to compensate for the mandatory pet. The pet was overperforming on druid, it got nerfed (again.) Quite frankly, the pet's behaviour and performance has always been problematic in terms of game balance, either due to their independent damage scaling or by sheer lack of a dodge mechanic or invulnerability. End of story.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JorneMormel.9850 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    Where does it say in the lore that Soulbeasts have weaker pets?

    The choice of tradeoff for druids was probably done because it was possible to have builds which were build for extreme durability while still having a fairly high damage output through the pets (which had their own stats independent of the druid's gear). Reducing the damage output on pets directly addresses this issue. Personally, I think there are probably more elegant ways of doing it, but it was a tradeoff chosen to directly address a problem that was observed at the time.

    You really don't want to compare lore, especially when it comes to game balance decisions.

    In Guild Wars the ranger's primary attribute, and with that the profession's mechanic was to lower the energy cost of skills. The pet mechanic was unique to rangers, but also optional.

    Damage scaling on the ranger in GW2 has always been a little lower to compensate for the mandatory pet. The pet was overperforming on druid, it got nerfed (again.) Quite frankly, the pet's behaviour and performance has always been problematic in terms of game balance, either due to their independent damage scaling or by lack of a dodge mechanic or invulnerability. End of story.

    Not sure how any of that was relevant to my question, or my observations in general?

    I'm aware that ranger has been balanced so as to have less personal DPS to account for the pet (and merging on Soulbeast is supposed to address this, especially on a Deadly or Ferocious pet).

    The lore inquiry was because I do a lot of reading and investigation into the lore, and there isn't a lot about soulbeast and what there is says nothing about soulbeast pets being weaker than those of regular rangers. So I was looking to get the poster I was replying to to cite their source.

  • @draxynnic.3719 said:

    Not sure how any of that was relevant to my question, or my observations in general?

    I'm aware that ranger has been balanced so as to have less personal DPS to account for the pet (and merging on Soulbeast is supposed to address this, especially on a Deadly or Ferocious pet).

    The lore inquiry was because I do a lot of reading and investigation into the lore, and there isn't a lot about soulbeast and what there is says nothing about soulbeast pets being weaker than those of regular rangers. So I was looking to get the poster I was replying to to cite their source.

    Point being it's pointless to compare in-game lore to game mechanics, as all lore offers is "flavour", like skill names. Lore-wise the ranger should be the strongest profession in-game because it fights as two seperate entities, balance wise this is unreasonable and mechanically undesirable. (Compare common pets to their ingame equivalents... Like why can't I tame a veteran or champion devourer? Now consider these common enemies took parties of 4-8 people in the original game to take down. Did wild beasts get neutered somewhere in the past couple of centuries of lore, or did people just happen to invent firearms and steroids?)

    Your question: "Where does it say in the lore that Soulbeasts have weaker pets?" shows expectation of there being a logical answer to game balance decisions in story background. Take for example the name of the game itself: Guild Wars, it's got nothing to do with the current iteration of the game, there's not even guild versus guild content. The very game itself is named after lore about a war centuries past, completely unrelated to what the game has to offer.

  • Lazze.9870Lazze.9870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2020

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Aaron Forestman.4758 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:
    Soulbeast gave up absolutely nothing, they just got another button added to their gameplay. They needed to get brought in line with other elite spec designs and removing pet swap during combat fits both gameplaywise and thematically. It was a good change.

    I've been quite confused about this update since they first revealed where they were going with soulbeast. It's had a tradeoff since PoF first came out, one of the most glaring ones out there: when you merge to get your extra skills/stats, you don't have your pet there anymore. That seems like a pretty explicit tradeoff to me.

    Not exactly.

    The thing with Soulbeast was that they were able to play like a core Ranger. Nothing was forcing you to merge with your pet, you could have your pet out attacking all the time if you want it to. So even if the pet disappears when merging, it is not really a trade off. It is giving you another option you can use if you desire and it benefits you, but you still had the choice.
    And having additional choices is always good. It was not really a disadvantage for you to get the option to merge with your pet.

    Other classes had to actually really give something up permanently, without the option to chose. The equivalent of what the Soulbeast had for the Necromancer, as an example, would have been not to replace his death shroud with reapers shroud, but giving him both shrouds available, with death shroud staying on F1 and reapers shroud becoming a new F2 button.

    Just to make it clear, I have no problems being restricted to one pet while in combat. Other than the fact that it makes the spec a lot more boring after being accustomed to having two.

    But I keep seeing the argument that it "could still be played like a core ranger" etc.

    Soulbeast is completely useless if you don't utilize the merge mechanic to the fullest, playing it like a core ranger is about the dumbest and most ineffective way you can play the class (I mean the entire class). I get your point, but it's entirely moot. If you're gonna make the argument for no trade off, make it simple. SB added versaility that core ranger doesn't have, given that you use the merge mechanic and properly swap between your pets, and the only real cost is that you have to run what is arguably one of the weakest traitlines ranger has. Keep saying that it can be played like core ranger just with an added button is just beating around the bush. The core of the issue is how strong access two mergable pets is, and the versatility that comes with it. The trade off is less about the pet swap and more about the loss of the skills that came with that second pet while merging.

    Which on the flipside means that Anet can finally look at some of the weaker SB traits and skills and make them actually worthwhile/interesting, now that the elite spec got its trade off implemented. Not that I expect them to.

    Edit: there is something to be said about merging to revive dead pets which also adds something, but then again, the dead pet mechanic is way too harsh on core and especially for druid in competetive content anyway. Druid should have been petless from the get-go to allow it to be a proper support spec instead of the mediocre middleground it is now (outside pve), but that's another discussion.

    And while I get your necro comparison, the ability to chose between both shrouds (especially if they kept the difference in how fast they drain) would be a hell of lot stronger than SB having two pets. Equivalent? I'd call it an overdramatic comparison.


    As for the question of the thread... It's called QoL. You get two pets to choose from before going into combat. Less fumbling with the pet panel. It's great in WvW. And I can't understand why on earth people would complain about that.

  • Strider.7849Strider.7849 Member ✭✭✭

    @DarkFlopy.8197 said:
    As soon as the balance patch hits, first things being said and being changed in ranger are......

    Soulbeasts, long standing without a tradeoff, are now receiving theirs—they lose combat access to a second pet and must choose carefully which pet they're going to be bonded with in battle. We're also enhancing several core ranger traits and some select weapon skills that we felt were on the weak side.

    • Soulbeast: Soulbeasts can no longer swap pets while in combat. Entering and leaving beastmode with your pet now counts as a pet swap for the purposes of the Clarion Bond and Zephyr's Speed traits.>

    So... i want to discuss this.
    im going to start with a question here:

    WHAT IS THE POINT OF HAVING A 2ND PET IF I CAN'T USE IT UNLESS ITS OUTSIDE OF COMBAT?

    so, what i am going to do with a 2nd pet? literally since the patch hit i have NEVER hit the pet swap, 90% of the time i couldn't because i was in combat and the other 10% of the time it was absolutely not needed to do so.

    again im asking, so what is the point of having a 2nd pet if i can't use it unless its outside of combat?!
    its like telling deadeye "one of your skills makes you crouch down while performing it... so now you can't crouch (use that skill) unless you are out of endurance so it will sync well with restoring endurance".

    what do you think about this "lets just push something so it will look like we are working on balance" change?.

    What I like about the second pet is I can quickly decide in WvW before I engage an enemy what tools I want to bring - OR if I get overwhelmed I keep my second pet mobility based so I can break combat and swap out.

  • Ooof yeah, I've not been having near as much fun with Soulbeast since the patch (mostly testing and PvE stuff for now). For me, ranger has always been my favourite class because of it's potential to play dynamically - to change tempo and fighting style on the fly and adapt to situations. A swap in pet and weapon could quickly take the same build from emphasizing a skirmishing style to being more survivable and in your face.

    Soulbeast originally just added to this sort of dynamic fun, giving us a couple more skills to play with in adapting to a situation. And while it was a boost, it generally wasn't the sort of boost which completely changed things since the merged pet skills largely follow their natural role on core ranger. For example, if you want maximum survivability in your Soulbeast then you probably aren't running a cat, and likely aren't running a drake to maximize DPS either. On top, the typing of which pet had which role (Supportive, Deadly, etc.) further limited choices especially between the condi and power damage types.

    Now, I completely agree that the elite specs should all have a trade off, and Soulbeast needed one. But taking away the dynamics of the pet swap which added a lot of fun potential to the class when actually playing it was not the right answer IMHO. Trade offs good, duller gameplay not good.

    What should Soulbeast give up instead? Admittedly this is kind of a tough question. Core Ranger doesn't have a whole lot of little mechanics to adjust since they are all tied to the pet which is either there or not. Potentially, a nerf to pet stats when not merged. Or a malus of some kind on the Ranger when not merged - after all if soulbeast is the pet themed spec of the pet class, shouldn't they rely on the pet a little more?

    Neither are great ideas, but it's some sort of start.

  • @Helequin.2608 said:
    Ooof yeah, I've not been having near as much fun with Soulbeast since the patch (mostly testing and PvE stuff for now). For me, ranger has always been my favourite class because of it's potential to play dynamically - to change tempo and fighting style on the fly and adapt to situations. A swap in pet and weapon could quickly take the same build from emphasizing a skirmishing style to being more survivable and in your face.

    Soulbeast originally just added to this sort of dynamic fun, giving us a couple more skills to play with in adapting to a situation. And while it was a boost, it generally wasn't the sort of boost which completely changed things since the merged pet skills largely follow their natural role on core ranger. For example, if you want maximum survivability in your Soulbeast then you probably aren't running a cat, and likely aren't running a drake to maximize DPS either. On top, the typing of which pet had which role (Supportive, Deadly, etc.) further limited choices especially between the condi and power damage types.

    Now, I completely agree that the elite specs should all have a trade off, and Soulbeast needed one. But taking away the dynamics of the pet swap which added a lot of fun potential to the class when actually playing it was not the right answer IMHO. Trade offs good, duller gameplay not good.

    What should Soulbeast give up instead? Admittedly this is kind of a tough question. Core Ranger doesn't have a whole lot of little mechanics to adjust since they are all tied to the pet which is either there or not. Potentially, a nerf to pet stats when not merged. Or a malus of some kind on the Ranger when not merged - after all if soulbeast is the pet themed spec of the pet class, shouldn't they rely on the pet a little more?

    Neither are great ideas, but it's some sort of start.

    To be fair - speaking strictly balance -wise - capping available combat pets at 1 is the easiest, fastest, and probably least "painful" change/limitation to implement.

    Elementalist mains often whine and argue about why it's so hard for Arenanet to balance out their class ("we're not allowed to have damage!!!!" etc). It's very simple: flexibility and versatility has to come with a tradeoff; but generally speaking, a jack of all trades -class is VERY difficult to balance in ANY game. League of Legends contains perhaps the best examples in the form of Yasuo, Zed, Azir and others.

    Yes, it does kitten the skill and fun factor of the specialization. Yes, that sucks. There are, however, 8 other classes in the game.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JorneMormel.9850 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    Not sure how any of that was relevant to my question, or my observations in general?

    I'm aware that ranger has been balanced so as to have less personal DPS to account for the pet (and merging on Soulbeast is supposed to address this, especially on a Deadly or Ferocious pet).

    The lore inquiry was because I do a lot of reading and investigation into the lore, and there isn't a lot about soulbeast and what there is says nothing about soulbeast pets being weaker than those of regular rangers. So I was looking to get the poster I was replying to to cite their source.

    Point being it's pointless to compare in-game lore to game mechanics, as all lore offers is "flavour", like skill names. Lore-wise the ranger should be the strongest profession in-game because it fights as two seperate entities, balance wise this is unreasonable and mechanically undesirable. (Compare common pets to their ingame equivalents... Like why can't I tame a veteran or champion devourer? Now consider these common enemies took parties of 4-8 people in the original game to take down. Did wild beasts get neutered somewhere in the past couple of centuries of lore, or did people just happen to invent firearms and steroids?)

    Your question: "Where does it say in the lore that Soulbeasts have weaker pets?" shows expectation of there being a logical answer to game balance decisions in story background. Take for example the name of the game itself: Guild Wars, it's got nothing to do with the current iteration of the game, there's not even guild versus guild content. The very game itself is named after lore about a war centuries past, completely unrelated to what the game has to offer.

    Obviously, gameplay balance is the most important consideration here, but lore can guide decisions. For instance, the decision to reduce soulbeast to one pet could have been motivated by ArenaNet looking for a tradeoff (gameplay balance consideration) and then someone goes "hey, if the soulbeast bond is so special, why can the soulbeast maintain such a bond with two animals at once?" Lore sometimes leads gameplay.

    There's probably also an idea somewhere of exactly what different forms of magic are capable of, which is going to influence skill design. Which is my counter to the "ranger + pet should be stronger than any other profession" claim: most professions have more powerful magic than rangers do, and those that don't have near-modern technology or heavy armour and a lot of physical training. The random non-veteran animals we run into in the wild aren't all that imposing, so why would Fido be expected to give a guy with a bow a clear advantage over the guy who can tell the laws of physics to take a day off?

    Seriously, though, the question "Where does it say in the lore that Soulbeasts have weaker pets?" only had one intent - that the person who made the claim that it is said in the lore either justify their claim (thereby bringing my attention to something I'd apparently missed) or admit that their claim was in error. Which, from my perspective, is a win-win.

    Mind you, if there is something obscure somewhere where it's said that soulbeast pets are weaker than regular ranger pets, then it makes sense to apply such a tradeoff to the soulbeast. Or adjust the writing of said source to reflect the actual tradeoff implemented instead. Gameplay sometimes leads lore too.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

    There are, however, 8 other classes in the game.

    That's a terrible suggestion. I'm not trying to be personal, I am speaking generally. If a player enjoys a class, the answer to changes on that class shouldn't be to move to another class. As a ranger/soulbeast main, I despise this change and disagree with it. While I do agree that soulbeast needed some trade-off, I don't favor this one and I do agree that this decision seemed the easiest (and IMO laziest). I hope that the devs will listen and find some other means to balance the soulbeast against the other ranger builds that doesn't entail losing this access.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Jheuloh.4109Jheuloh.4109 Member ✭✭
    edited March 13, 2020

    Can't speak for PVP

    In PVE, for folks struggling with the Soulbeast change I figure we're more accustomed to using the pet swap to save a dying pet.

    At the risk of sounding obvious or inept, treat merging as that survival mechanic instead if the fight goes that way. Build your battle plan around utilizing the merge for whatever fat bursts you have planned to avoid forgetting you even have it (assuming you're rocking beast mastery and/or commands.) Don't be afraid to take on tankier traits to offset the more regular absence of the pet - getting greedy with glass canon traits easily leads to the glass being emphasized over the cannon.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I often used the pet swap to heal me rather than save a dying pet.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Rukia.4802Rukia.4802 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2020

    Garbage change.. thought my game was bugged and came here to find out why I couldn't swap my pet in combat. Well its a lot more boring now I'll give you that, bravo anet.

    @kharmin.7683 said:
    I often used the pet swap to heal me rather than save a dying pet.

    Me too now missing spiritual reprieve completely because you need a dps pet so now there is 0 variety.

    GW2 need list:
    GW1 Assassin elite spec
    Option to hide party/squad nameplate
    Particle effect slider/ability to turn friendly player effects off

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I like latest soulbeasts. Now before entering combat I should be clear understand why pet I should take.