GW2 WvWvW memes thread — Guild Wars 2 Forums

GW2 WvWvW memes thread

getalifeturd.8139getalifeturd.8139 Member ✭✭
edited November 19 in WvW

I would like to open a discussion about balance and how it affects WvWvW with the community. Every expansion has added better skills and synergies to classes over core specs. As the players learn how to use each elite spec we see that the game is introducing more powerful builds. Each of these builds counters each other in a way.

For example many people complain about scourges but as a nomad's firebrand using the tome of resolve especially but also courage. We have aoe condition clears on resolve 2 and 5 and healing thoughout the tome. And in courage we have basically permanent reflect on 3 and resistance on 4. Combine this with the mantra that removes conditions and stability shout of course and you even get to choose 2 of the 3 very strong defensive options core guardian has to further augment the build.

Of course it isn't as easy as facerolling the keyboard for dps like most dire condition specs but if you build for defensive stats with healing power, toughness and vitality you can certainly survive even full blob server fights. Of course we all knew guardian could do this but in bringing up the hard counter of scourge I would like to explain something.

If I want to be a viable support I need healing power there is no way around it. You can have all the vitality and toughness you want but without a way to refill your health its useless. This is where a sacrifice has to be made for the build to function. I personally run nomad's armor and play in a way to support my commanders from pinsnipers and ressurect them under focus fire.

If I were to wear dire armor I would do more damage to an enemy group and synergise better with the 1 push mentality of stack dps to win that seems to be the whole game's focus. In wvw the 1 place where I have always went to experience some form of teamwork I do not like this direction of gameplay. What sacrifice does dire armor make when stacked in a zerg of scourges? They corrupt enemy boons and give each other barriers.

A spellbreaker who is also almost permanently immune to damage if played well only makes a scourge stack even better. The focus on damage over healing is so obvious for so many years this game has been out. People say its boring to play healers? I find it more boring if fights last a couple of seconds.

Many people will call me biased as a person who wants to push my playstyle onto others. I'm sorry if you feel that way but this game only recently with heart of thorns even included druid as a healing focused class at all. For many years it was run zerker armor or gtfo in pve. I guess at least condition users get their turn to have fun too.

But let us not forget an mmo needs many players so why not encourage all playstyles? I find myself seeing empty pvp servers and wvw even in T1 emptier because of closed servers. If you truly believe that dps is the answer to having fun then wouldn't everybody be content to simply bash away at the target golem forever?

I don't mean to offend anybody with this post I just would like to see more people trying to counter the meta this game seems to have. I love this game and only want the best for it and would like to see players not demand nerfs for revenge because of their own class being nerfed.

I have a few ideas to balance WvWvW such as stability being the old boon without the stacking mechanic so it would scale to blob fights. Also I don't how its even possible to fix but aoes can stack conditions on you for every aoe you're affected by. They ignore the aoe cap because they stack basically endlessly. Perhaps the 1st step is to simply remove stats like dire armor that are simply too strong defensively and offensively.

We all know some classes scale better than others in wvw. It will never be perfectly balanced but I truly believe each class has their place in roaming or blobbing. After all we all have many tomes from reward tracks simply make a new character and try out something new. We only learn and progress by challenging ourselves by playing differently than we usually do. Without the ability to adapt to new circumstances the human race would not have evolved to this point.

TL;DR: I don't think the answer is to nerf classes but rather change the game mechanics, split skills for wvw and nerf armor sets like in pvp that simply overperform. More power creep to balance power creep...If everything is overpowered is it balanced?

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Comments

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭

    @getalifeturd.8139 said:
    Perhaps the 1st step is to simply remove stats like dire armor that are simply too strong defensively and offensively.

    Yes, perhaps it is exactly like we've been saying for years but unfortunetly the Anet WvW balance guy or girl seem to be constantly passed out drunk and unable to walk.

  • ToPNoP.2493ToPNoP.2493 Member ✭✭

    More op to counter more op just makes the fastest bomb win.

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭

    If anet cares enough about power creeping, they would have push out balance changes every month and not every 3 months.

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi Server
    www.gw2time.com

  • Thanks for the replies and discussion guys. The fact that I have to bring every condition removal available to me to be able to remove enough conditions in a zerg...Along with pulsing resistance until I actually need to use the condition removal. I guess what I'm trying to say is when you have to play a certain class with every available counter it gets a bit much for the average player.

    People don't want to play a game that's not fun and with conditions it's either you have enough removal or you die. Especially in a blob it doesn't scale at all to the numbers. I hope Arenanet notices that the community would like conditions to be balanced somehow since they ignore toughness too unlike power damage. As you people said it's punishing to have boons and in an mmo...It almost discourages people to play together.

  • Seffen.2875Seffen.2875 Member ✭✭

    As a matter of fact, i completely dropped boon Duration. I don't see any sense in it anymore since everything about boons that is Lasting longer than 2 seconds will be stripped anyway.
    So nomad is a good choice though i went with celestial, or as a Substitute a mix of magi and crusader. I even dropped stand your ground. You really dont Need it in large scale fights. (can't tell much about gvg). I took the sigil of judgment which gives me another stunbreak, some burn and has a cooldown which is short enough to use it several times. It is quite hard getting used to it, and i am still not sure if the signe is the one to go with or if you rather should take another skill with more Utility like wall of reflection.

    I really don't think that the Meta right now is as imbalanced as everyone is saying. The skill cap just got raised by a significant amount for certain classes like the Guardian. (Not you, necro.) If you are willing to adapt then you are quite fine with the meta.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 18

    starlinvf.1358 i doubt they are trying to fix anything bout that, they rather enforce something than actually fix, and game and conditins are designef for PVE, anythign that changers pve wont be touched.

    This game as reached is limit, next expect more aoe condis more aoe cleanses more aoe boons... redudancy, and they will need to be better than PoF, to be the new coo kid gimmicks.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 18

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    starlinvf.1358 i doubt they are trying to fix anything bout that, they rather enforce something than actually fix, and game and conditins are designef for PVE, anythign that changers pve wont be touched.

    This game as reached is limit, next expect more aoe condis more aoe cleanses more aoe boons... redudancy, and they will need to be better than PoF, to be the new coo kid gimmicks.

    Indeed

    --don't forget Anet 'balance' meta's rotations: power>condi>bunker
    announcement of cele-bunker arriving soon

  • If you guys truly hated this game so much you would move on and play other games...Instead there are so many people that stay on the forums simply to hate on the game. I know people have passion for this game and want it to be balanced more often. But that won't be achieved by telling people to quit and give up. Apathy is not a solution to anything.

    I've seen some people often mention Elder Scrolls online as a more competitive game. I myself have played this game and completed veteran maelstrom arena on a magicka sorcerer. The gameplay was the most repetitive thing I've ever experienced in an mmo. Spam health shield spells constantly to survive 1 shots while basically dropping aoes at your feet. I've seen other classes in Eso have to do pretty much the same except blocking attacks with their shield or dodging.

    At least in Guild Wars 2 we have more varied gameplay because we do not rely on a magicka/stamina system for most classes. Instead its based on cooldowns which means that in fact you cannot spam as you would in Eso. Also in Eso there is no aoe limit in its wvw system in Cyrodil. This enforces a meta where the most aoes wins and there's even a destruction ultimate that follows your character allowing no thought to land the dps either.

    Eso can be summarised by health shield stacking, shield block spamming and may the best gear and champion points grinder win. I personally prefer a game which isn't so boring and Gw2 may have its flaws but at least it's a fun game to play even if it is catered to casuals.

    I come from Runescape when I quit when evolution of combat was released and if there's a boring combat system then Rs3 is it. We don't how good we've got it until it's gone...I was addicted to pre eoc and the game was complex with many rewards from quests that were powerful and strong. Then the uniqueness disappeared when Jagex in many people's opinion basically tried to copy WoW.

    If we want to blame anybody for the state of mmos nowadays then it's WoW's fault. First it was buy to play with the disc and then it was subscriptions. Then it was expansions and finally pay2win microtransactions. Greed will ruin gaming when its more about the profit than the content and making a fun game...

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 23

    @getalifeturd.8139 said:
    If you guys truly hated this game so much you would move on and play other games...Instead there are so many people that stay on the forums simply to hate on the game. I know people have passion for this game and want it to be balanced more often. But that won't be achieved by telling people to quit and give up. Apathy is not a solution to anything.

    I think ur reading it wrong, no one is telling players to quit, problem is ANet ideals... that are not doing a good job, ATM following ANet feels like the car seller that says amazing stuff for their product it has everything but they only sold half of the car, or any time car goes to factory they say its improved but ends with more problems that will requires more fixes...

    (p.s i got nothing against car sellers)

    i actually already started to play 2 other pve games and both are very old (atm having little time to decide wich ill keep playing), but i like to play with some players on this game on WvW once in a while(my server already lost alot of players that stoped playing, and when the current players stop wvw ill probably quit the game).

    It cringes to see how can some dev's or game designer have their hand and feet tied, anythign that was bad implemented ANet rather enforces its use than actually it fixes, and when they said they fix or improve its more like 2 steps back that will require further atention and fixes than anything good....Gw2 ended to be a pretty game but not a good game

    Gw2 as reached the limit...with the current class design and game ideal, even on visual clutter due skill spam the game is very ugly to watch....from outside...

  • Arimas.3492Arimas.3492 Member ✭✭✭

    After 5 years of playing WvW almost exclusively, one thing I can say is from my viewpoint WvW will need a big overhaul (insert salty meme here) in content and a huge balance pass on all classes with WvW only effects on skills.

    Neither of those things will happen anytime soon, if at all. Though WvW is still a decently fun playable game mode and there have been some changes to systems what we need is content, not rewards or scoring crap. Class balance should always be a must as that's the biggest part for PvP in any game, but WvW content needs to be different and better. Performance needs improvement, WvW IMO should get entire map changes, bigger maps, make mounts for WvW, change up siege and bring new siege in, more objectives for all types of groups etc.

    But today WvW is almost identical to what is was at launch. I'd gladly enjoy WvW more with absolutely no rewards if it had things like I described above.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 31

    "TL;DR: I don't think the answer is to nerf classes but rather change the game mechanics, split skills for wvw and nerf armor sets like in pvp that simply overperform. More power creep to balance power creep...If everything is overpowered is it balanced?"

    indeed and the balance certainly has become power creep vs power creep: whomever with the most power creep wins...whomever spams power creep wins.

    Toxicity vs Toxicity..... whomever spams the most toxicity wins.

    That is not balance and Never will. Toxicity, Power Creep, Bad Design are the ultimate death to all Competitions.

    (My prediction: by the rate things are going.......pvp+wvw game servers will shut down in 2018, leaving Pve fighting for its survival.)

    (2019 will be the ultimate death of gw2 pve)

  • Extreme roles are bad because it becomes a counter vs counter battle. If somebody is running full zerker damage set then you need to either be zerker too or bunker up or condition them. The damage mitigation just isn’t enough to outlast the dps in this game. This means the fights don’t last very long unless you’re in a huge zerg (wvw) but even then pro guilds will wipe pugs every time.

    Also base stats like toughness and health are different across professions. Stability, condition removal, healing, crowd control and dps is unevenly spread across them too. This means that some professions are more suited to “tank” roles. While others are more suited to “condition spam”. Then there are others suited to “zerker” burst dps.

    This makes the game very difficult to balance because it is unbalanced to begin with. While yes it is true every profession can be any role some are more suited to it than others. The game can not be balanced except by numbers it seems.

    There is many lessons to be taken from gw1 such as all professions having the same base health. Also healing being much more effective than it currently is. Then the pvp in this game might be more than just spamming of conditions and dps. There would be a true counter rather than just damage avoidance.

    I think the biggest problem is balancing for different skill levels. Because some players have better reflexes or more experience playing a profession. This means that it is not even the professions that are unbalanced but the actual players themselves.

    So what I have seen Arenanet do is make very easy builds like condition bunkers that everyone can use. Then there’s zerker thieves, elementalists, bunker guards, etc, that take a bit more skill. The main problem as discussed in Sirlin’s book is balancing for skill.

    This is very difficult and he said that by giving easier options that can work, but don’t work as well as something which requires more skill. That is balance and I think Arenanet know this and what we have is a game balanced for different skill levels.

    That seems to be the logical way of thinking about the metas of this game in pvp and wvw. And to me it does seem balanced and if people complain they simply need to “learn to play”. But that does not mean that builds that require much more skill should faceroll everybody either.

    So in conclusion Balance is very subjective but if you balance for different skill levels it becomes much easier. And that is why a game can not ever be truly balanced. Because players and people have so many different skill levels.

    The way we experience competition is by winning or losing. But also I understand that by being too subjective in our opinions of balance is bad feedback. By making the pvp combat challenging but also not too hard to learn creates a diverse pvp community.

    The problem is when the game is objectively balanced completely without any player feedback then it becomes very unpopular quickly. This is why Balance is subjective because players who pvp want to have fun which is highly subjective. This is just my opinions of course because I’m sure that general balance is much harder than it seems.

    Let's use the conquest meta as an example. We fight each other on small circles. And we have to hold these circles to win the game.

    It’s not the condition amulets or boon corruptions that is the reason these condition classes are the best. It’s simply the fact that everything else that could counter the Conquest Meta has been nerfed by Arenanet to make way for Esports.

    Instead of a power based twitch reaction time meta we have an abundance of conditions and passive gameplay. We have area of effect skills ticking away on a point. We have Bunker Specs putting out enough damage to kill players.

    Why is this? Because Arenanet has slowly nerfed burst damage and replaced active damage mitigation with passive invulnerabilities. Now instead of dodging power based attacks with well timed evades we have classes running max AOE condition bunkers.

    These condition classes are dominating because other classes cannot bring enough sustain to compete with them. They are kings of conditions and AOE at the same time with the best ability to stack boons.

    You want to know why this game isn’t an ESport Arenanet? Because you catered too much to casuals and made this game too simple. If we had Monks they at least could heal the other classes without sustain directly instead of them slowly dying to AOE and conditions.

    I call this game Gank Wars 2 and there’s a simple reason why. Immobilise stacking, Stun/Daze chaining and CC spam is neverending and only certain classes have enough Stability or condition removals to escape.

    There is a general lack of sustain and too much dps (both conditions and power). What is the counter to DPS? Nothing…but in GuildWars 1 it was a Monk and that is why this game lacks depth. Dodge rolls aren’t a replacement for healing and protection that a monk class would offer.

    I find it funny when people assume GW1 was only theorycrafting builds and counters. The combat was just as if not more active than GW2. The fact is it had interrupts and hexes (based around punishing enemy for spamming). Proper protection and healing spells (able to almost full heal from a spike of dps). Along with Conditions, Melee and kiting, Aoes, block skills/spells and teleports. Also I probably need to mention you couldn’t just spam skills either. They were reliant on energy which you had a supply of and when you ran out it had to regenerate.

    ^ There’s an example of what is possible with monks. Also here’s a list of monk spells in gw1: “Monks…with their unparalleled gift for keeping their allies alive” http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_monk_skills

    Just some ideas and my opinion about the different builds. Since the meta seems to be either extreme conditions bunker or burst spike with not much room in the middle. I’m hoping healing support can be made more viable instead of people just seeing green numbers but not getting any loot.

    Bunker and support do very little damage unless they’re a hybrid to do conditions but you generally need some healing power to be a good support player.

    Arenanet are buffing support healing and I am glad for it. Problem is most of the full zerker burst spike damage just cannot be outhealed. There’s not much you can do to mitigate the damage either apart from your main heal, dodges, blocks, invulns and evades.

    A full zerker amulet player will die in a couple of hits yet can 1shot other players, while a full on bunker such as a guardian can tank hits from multiple players. Also the condition guys in the middle cant really be blamed either since he needs to tank and do some dps through the toughness of the bunkers.

    Even Monks can die and be pressured from burst damage as seen in the video but most importantly it gives a real counter to spamming of dps (either conditions or power damage). Right now it’s just a race to see who can spam and avoid the most damage to win hence we have all these “passive” condition builds and burst spikes that rely on being invulnerable.

    Boons run out and can be stripped not to mention if the player isn’t in bunker gear they won’t be enough usually unless they have a good amount of toughness. Healing and condition removal is what keeps you alive in an actual fight and it seems to only work in wvw with lots of players running support.

    Evades/dodges, condition removal, block and invulnerable skills all have cooldowns meanwhile the damage just keeps coming from autoattacks and aoes. This is why I think this game would benefit from having a monk, to counter the insane burst damage.

    What I want simply is a game with monks like gw1 had where fights can actually last longer than a couple of minutes. But apparently Arenanet decided that healers are boring and everyone should just kill each other with dps. Healing and Damage Mitigation needs a real buff if this game wants to have any chance at being competitive and balanced.

    Fights lasting longer hones skills and teamwork with players. The best example I can use in gw2 is wvw where there is enough support and the aoe limit of 5 prevents players being bursted down instantly if they make a mistake. The stacking zerg meta is there for a reason and all zerker and condition damage does is make it even more needed.

    Remember gw1 we had so many skills and different builds and they could all be used because they countered each other. But that didn’t mean that some builds weren’t better than others for certain things. There is too many players complaining that 1 build is too powerful but in my opinion its all based on skill level. Burst can 1-shot bunker or condis but they have more defense making it harder.

    Do you guys want a game with no “Overpowered” skills and everything the same and boring? Half the fun of games is to have fun and in gw1 I sure had fun in pve with my shadow form tank lol. So in all honesty maybe try different classes more and try to learn all the different skills and how they can be countered. There is no reason for nerfs because you guys refuse to adapt to the meta.

    I played gw1 had fun but this combat system is more dynamic being able to actively dodge and every class having their own heals. I just get bored of the whole dps wins everything while damage mitigation and healing is not even considered. I think gw2 lacks depth and with a monk it could easily have it.

    Maybe I’m just the type of player that likes when I’m needed such as Shadow Form tanks in gw1. There are many other players that I think want to be able to feel like they can help the party and be useful instead of just another player. This is why I love healing and damage mitigation and tanking is so fun.

    I truly believe Thief's burst meta with bunker Guardian’s tankiness and Warrior’s Healing Signet and invuln stances balance each other out. Also Engineer’s, Necromancer's and Elementalist’s Aoe damage controls conquest points. Meanwhile Ranger's pets and long distance damage can take out these targets from a distance. Mesmer’s spamming of clones also allows them to easily confuse an enemy long enough for them to burst them down. This is truly the best meta we can get and if you don’t like it experiment with builds and kill the passive no skill builds as you call them.

    If some builds don’t have a counter then reroll to them since they’re obviously so overpowered and never die. Maybe try playing as a team instead of trying to 1v1 everything. Burst/zerker will die quickly that’s a fact. Would you prefer the meta to be bunkers and conditions only?

    This is the state of the meta and Arenanet will not change it because it attracts the most players. Do you think that there is more skill to playing your build and everything else is cheese? This is called not playing to win and making excuses.

    Everybody plays for or against a profession and thinks it is Overpowered. Well I am simply going to say that is your opinion. There is no balance when everything is “overpowered”.

    Arenanet will not listen to your complaints obviously biased against certain professions. Because all you want is for them to be nerfed and your own profession buffed. I will link “Playing to win” by Sirlin now.

    http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

  • Zephyra.4709Zephyra.4709 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @xDudisx.5914 said:
    Too much condi: nerf condi? No, increase condi clear spam.

    More like no counter it with more condi, lol.
    Last night I had a ridiculous siituation where we where fighting a scourge heavy group. Only about 20 peeps so not too big, but still, circles everywhere. I have my mesmer cleanse mantra up.

    Get 5 condis on me, condi cleanse 3 of them - I now have 7 different condis on me and dropping HP faster than before. Instantly cleanse 3 more condis - I cant tell the difference because my bar is still covered in about 7 condis.

    kitten am I supposed to do? We need icd on stupid condi application?

    I had a random shower thought (probably bad since it might be a puzzle to interpret but I hope it makes sense, haha) regarding ICD on SPECIFIC condi application from player(s). Probably 'good on paper wouldn't work in reality' mentality yet I dare to wonder - would it be plausible to have an ICD against specific conditions only if it's from the same enemy who applied it? My most common scenario's have played out where I cleanse 10 torment stacks only to instantly get another lot on me from that same person after using a cleanse ability. Having an ICD so that singular condi isn't applied instantly from the same enemy might help with the bursty nature of condi spam on certain classes. I'd imagine it would work better in small-scale/1v1 roaming. On the downside side which I am aware, this may cause further imbalance with certain classes' abilities to sustain/tank (guard/warri) even more if they have an extra 0.75 time frame of certain condi application immunity.

    It's certainly mind boggling to balance, unfortunately.

    TLDR: ICD on incoming application of x condi from x player so you don't get insta x condi applied to you again from that same player after using a cleanse ability (0.75 seconds)

  • Darkened.4076Darkened.4076 Member ✭✭

    I agree with some of the OP points. Though this expansion is much more interesting than the last - Anet haven't kept an eye on the flow of combat since the vanilla game. I'm specifically referring to the power creep here. Combat in the vanilla game use to have more of a 'tug of war' kind of feel, whereas now, its over in a single condition spike and we see the return of 'pirating shipping' which I hope many would agree is boring to play. This type of meta also encourages less skillful play in general. People are right in saying that the addition of extra boons and conditions have not helped this - but this specifically, is not the real problem.

    On condition damage - As an individual who enjoys 'damage over time' effects, I am glad condition damage is actually a usable play-style compared to the vanilla game, BUT, I will agree it has got far too out of hand. I have no issue with DOTS hitting hard, but there should be a ramp up window. The OP mentions removing dire gear this is an incorrect assumption - the issue is not with the gear itself, but with how the stat allocation [or lack of] for condition damage works. The base line right now, especially in WvW is that you really only need 'condition damage' as a single stat allocation to boost your damage, whereas, power builds require two addition stats [outside of 'power'] to even be close to on par. This, is what allows condition damage builds to do excellent damage, whilst also being able to build into tank stats at no cost to their damage output.
    A possible 'simple' solution to this, would be to lower the 'base' condition damage across the board for all conditions that produce damage, but, at the same time, allow them to critically hit. This would mean that condition builds would have access to precision and ferocity [but still provide a different play-style]. The only issue here, would be how to deal with 'condition duration' - but believe this to be a separate issue [I believe condition duration should be part of the actual build trees for condition damage, rather than on gear]. I truly think a change such as this would help balance of the overall game [if handled well] and also provide more build diversity.
    *Also is it just me or are the servers particular bad are handling mass condition spam?
    ** The additive nature of conditions is an issue in WvW [its obvious], but, I honestly don't know what could be done about that. The game isn't built to have multiple single applications of conditions from different sources.

    On splitting skills Do not do this. It is not the answer and there is already enough of this in the game. The whole 'PVE affecting WVW' argument doesn't stand true to me. All PVE builds are essentially 'full glass cannon' builds and should in theory be weak against WVW focused builds.

    Overall, I think there is a little too much of everything right now - condition application, condition removal, boon corruption, boon application, CC sources ETC ETC. Things don't need nerfing, they just need toning.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 29

    gw2 player would cry on gw1 since they cant win with a sword on monk(they woudl be unable to understand why use of that or a -25 energy set even if they play the game for 3-4 years...), and they will call every one that interrupts instant casting hackers...

    Gw2 is for .. i cant find even words to describe it.. the mess of the game they have putted together.
    This developers need to change the game.. 4-5 years and the game feels like a 10+ year game... old and oudated as f***..

    Pitty that ANet quality is rather enforce awfull combat for carry players than actually change and improve, learn and see what they can fork up from gw1.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 .,

    Honest question: why post here? You find nothing remotely salvageable about the game, your comments tend to be extremely negative on pretty much everything, from game, to developers, to players.

    I guess I can't understand as if I felt this way about something, it wouldn't be worth my time..

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭

    I mean, you own the game so you certainly have the right to post, but...

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 29

    Well not all my comments arent negative, but tend to be blunt , its the game quality that pushes me to do it, and the lack of response of the devs to improve the game, with PoF as a WvW player it feels like i have to fight where nobody is due lag FPS drops.. etc.. oon a pvp enviroment i feel like ANet does not even care the pve skill design with inflict issues on other gamemodes, this is the things that cringes me :pensive:

    And just playing some wvw while joking and trolling with players on the forum that show off build with 20k damage in 1 hits..has skillful and decent build.

    P:S the post i made here earlier, it a bit of a joke of comparison of ther overall players quality in gw1 and from gw2, games are designed for diferent targets.

  • mulzi.8273mulzi.8273 Member ✭✭✭

    I propose we change the title to 'Condi Creep' rather than Power Creep. There is nothing about power that is creeping anywhere nowadays, except maybe down.

    As for the gw1 reference, 90% of the gw2 player base would not be able to function in gw1. Different mechanics, no 'spam aoe and run in the other direction and win' tactics, etc. GW1 was on a hands on, skill-based combat, watching bars for skills, using interupts intentionally rather than spamming, etc.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 30

    mulzi.8273 , indeed actually power IMO is fine just some few skills are overperforming atm, wich is minimal (but ugly to watch^^), th eonly issue that might create power creep effect is the capability of every one cleave on autos, there migh be to damage floating arround targets, and kill targets w/o even being atacking them.. meh.. its lame as hell, every call target end's in a bombard that zone ~:\ .

    Players in that aspect would have to play much better (in team ) if we had no cleaves on autos, theres already plenty of aoe skills on several weapon and utilities.
    (ive sugested to make guardian spirit weapons and staff the next elite spe (IMO is the best way to fix both since they are not working on guardian, spirit weapons are actually a disaster at the momment), with access to gw1Ritualist splinter weapon and similiar skill in place of the virtues and tomes, to get cleave back with teamplay )

    About conditions, cc, stability, is not hard at all to fix it... the condi damage might be even ok'ish , the issue is the class design for pve spam and the mechanics are ment to carry players rather than make player play in team work.

    EDIT: btw one way to control condis is to make the easy condi spam classes casting hexes like old mesmers and necros, and those hexes will have several effects liek they had on gw1 (wich i sugested on other thread as well)

    Funny how ANet had a good shceme for skill design from gw1 to build its base for gw2 and they went to the gw2 awfull spam .... LOL its mindblowing.

  • This post will relate to the the invisible tags poll in another thread. We recently had stronghold released in pvp and even the guild arena in guild halls did not suddenly make GvGing popular. Despite what guilds may think this game and especially WvWvW is running on life support and even T1 servers often have outnumbered on many maps.

    I cannot agree with Forced GvGing. Even with all the rivalries between servers, the bandwagoning, “buying guilds”, spying in TS, etc. There are big server communities behind each server. Players work together and form real friendships in WvWvW.

    I believe this is something GvGers forget about server based WvWvW. GW1 had GvG but I don’t think Arenanet will ever support it completely in GW2. The simplest is that unorganised zerging with “PUGs” is easily done with a commander tag.

    This is just my opinion of course but I think that GvGers are too elitist and even mean sometimes to the players on a server. The militia fight for their server too. They may not all be on TS, some may even be on uplevels but without them at all WvWvW would be much more emptier place.

    Please love the random players aka the PUGs of your server and teach them how to WvWvW even encourage them to join a guild or give advice on builds and gear. But don’t just hate on them for the sake of it. All running tagless does is force elitism into an already dying game mode.

    In relation to the recent posts power creep's definition is; A process that sometimes occurs in games where new content slowly outstrip the power of previous alternatives. This leads to players abandoning previous options in favour of the latest and more powerful alternatives, resulting in an inevitable increase in power throughout the game.

  • Offair.2563Offair.2563 Member ✭✭✭

    Diminishing returns would og a long way but well.

    Don't argue with idiots, they drag you down to their level and own you with experience.
    Big Babou, Ranger for life.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 3

    @getalifeturd.8139 said:
    This post will relate to the the invisible tags poll in another thread. We recently had stronghold released in pvp and even the guild arena in guild halls did not suddenly make GvGing popular. Despite what guilds may think this game and especially WvWvW is running on life support and even T1 servers often have outnumbered on many maps.

    I cannot agree with Forced GvGing. Even with all the rivalries between servers, the bandwagoning, “buying guilds”, spying in TS, etc. There are big server communities behind each server. Players work together and form real friendships in WvWvW.

    I believe this is something GvGers forget about server based WvWvW. GW1 had GvG but I don’t think Arenanet will ever support it completely in GW2. The simplest is that unorganised zerging with “PUGs” is easily done with a commander tag.

    This is just my opinion of course but I think that GvGers are too elitist and even mean sometimes to the players on a server. The militia fight for their server too. They may not all be on TS, some may even be on uplevels but without them at all WvWvW would be much more emptier place.

    Please love the random players aka the PUGs of your server and teach them how to WvWvW even encourage them to join a guild or give advice on builds and gear. But don’t just hate on them for the sake of it. All running tagless does is force elitism into an already dying game mode.

    In relation to the recent posts power creep's definition is; A process that sometimes occurs in games where new content slowly outstrip the power of previous alternatives. This leads to players abandoning previous options in favour of the latest and more powerful alternatives, resulting in an inevitable increase in power throughout the game.

    And that is called vertical progression in a way, put what was decent before useless or in a inferior state but also make player buy what is more recent....Gw2 how classes/skill are bad designed, they would not fit on a 8 vs 8 or even 10 vs 10, if the actual 5 vs 5 is already a mess and even ugly to watch(gw1 gvg were amazing to observe and try to understand the plays), with more players would be far worse.
    This game spvp is more suited to 2 vs 2 max 3 vs 3 than actuallly the 5 mess teams, i tryed to listed the ESL commentors , they wre being limited by awfull the power creep and best spammer with more damage would win, was ugly to watch and listen but not to fault of the commentors, its the idead behind gw2 that is awfully bad managed into make spvp so easy for pve players, welll for some one like me playing mmos and pvp online game sbefore the 2k's, pve players dont care about pvp, and make the game arround those players that just want to 11111 and get free rewards is not a good ideal.

    TDLR: GW2 does not support GVG , due its flawed (spam and to simple) combat concept.

    And well... who are players gona teach to WvW??? most servers are resumed to the same try harders, within their ktrain and get ktrained timezones, WvW concept is actually dead... its not a good gamemode between EOTM and WvW atm both need to be "deleted", and its resources salvaged to some gamemode simplier and better with more space for growth.

  • Matt Cole.2680Matt Cole.2680 Member ✭✭

    I like this thread, wvw has become one of my favorite game modes. For me personally, I don’t think there is enough condi defense. With foods and runes you can help but an actual armor stat would be nice, or built into an existing armor stat.

    That being said, I live with condis, and I generally build around countering them, but when something effects the fun of a game mode that’s when I see it as a problem, and for me personally fighting condis just isn’t that fun at the moment. Like I said, I live with it and that’s fine, I have nothing against condis, but I do think there should be something changed, as of what I believe there are other forum users who have more credibility than I do to make suggestions. I personally think the almost instant re-application and sheer amount of condi spam currently capable heavily outweighs the counter-play and defensive capabilities used for condi removal.

    My rev(whose build I switched up slightly because that’s part of the fun) running mallyx instead of ventari actually faired pretty well and it was fun. Win/lose, playing is what I consider fun, and when something makes playing not fun I don’t necessarily like it lol, I’ve said this before I think in another thread.

    For those who are unaware, meta, defined by guild wars at least, came from guild wars 1, where pvp content was a big deal, due to the sheer amount of skills and combos possibilities were pretty much endless, a meta comp(which would be created by players) would be good for a few weeks before someone figured out a counter which became the new meta and so on and so forth. If a build was out of hand for too long it would get some nerfs, and rightfully so. I think a big issue with gw2 compared to gw1 is the meta doesn’t change as much/as fast because it can’t in the same capacity it could in gw1 without more support from anet, but that doesn’t mean they can’t make improvements, and with that I hope they do, for the sake of everyone. Otherwise it can get stale.

    I love this game but I think they should work on wvw a little bit more and really listen to the player base, do more patch work, give a chance for faster changing WvW metas. I’m not into sPvP so I can’t speak to anything in that regard, but they should have some WvW skills and such and have it so it doesn’t affect the hardcore pve scene.

    To conclude my ramble, I’m not an expert, but I think some of the players in this game have some great ideas that should be heard, just keep it mature and legit. I hope some changes come, not due to any vials of salt produced by myself, not because I dislike a particular profession or particular things THAT much(condis) but because I care about the life span of this game and the player base that comes with it.

    TLDR; long ramble, I just want people to be happy and I think some more good communication could help and I think there’s some players that can objectively look at these situations and help. Positivity!!

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 3

    Matt Cole.2680 , also gw1 metas required way more skill than anything this game will ever be, gw1 pvp was towards skill, reflexes, teamplay and comms, positiong...

  • Darkened.4076Darkened.4076 Member ✭✭

    Have Anet giving any points towards being aware or addressing any of this?

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 3

    All i remmeber is that ANet said that PoF would be 100% pve sided, while spvp and wvw might receive some updates later, probably q3 2018 (my bet)

  • Reaper Alim.4176Reaper Alim.4176 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    All i remmeber is that ANet said that PoF would be 100% pve sided, while spvp and wvw might receive some updates later, probably q3 2018 (my bet)

    I heard the same thing. Meaning more than likely means never. It's time to abandon that false hope guys and gals. You are only leading yourselves to total disappointment.

    I am the one and only true Majestic Being.
    I stand now on the precipice of change.
    My perceptions on quality is refined.
    I am now the outsider looking in.

  • ^ Your post history clearly shows you're a troll who doesn't even play the game trying to convince others to quit like you. Here's some links for you to learn to troll better;
    http://i.4cdn.org/pol/1493993226750.jpg
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mental_disorders

    I remember the great 2v1 of BlackGate during Season 2. There are many reasons we don't care as much as we used to. The playerbase is much more casual than back in the old days. Pvp isn't even supported to become an Esport anymore. Even though we all knew that WvW was the true end game and a unique game mode which if given support should have become a new type of Esport.

    Apathy over years of neglect with only more rewards given to WvWers basically confirms Arenanet's idea that we're all just Pvers wanting pixels. It's not that we're boring it's just that game companies don't cater to hardcore pvpers anymore. There's more money to be made from casuals who want to make their characters look pretty especially with the introduction of microtransactions.

    Guild Wars 1 would of kicked League of Legend's kitten if it kept being supported and updated. That game was very well balanced and encouraged teamwork rather than GW2's everyone can do anything builds. The majority of the human race want easy to understand gameplay that the braindead sheep of this world can be entertained by. If a game takes years of practice and theorycrafting to learn and perfect it's just not viable anymore in this dumbed down society.

    They brainwash us with advertisements so that we become consumers of the global corporation's products. Banks control our world through the stock exchange making sure any business that wants to make a profit has to bow down to shareholder's demands. We are living in an age of slavery to the rich and it's only going to get worse for our kids if we have any. No privacy or freedom of speech anymore in this world either. I don't have a phone or a Facebook account because I'm anonymous and wish to stay that way.

    To bring this back on topic remember that GW1 had 1000 skills, dual class system and healers and they still tried to balance it. GW2 has a fraction of that number and they don't even try. Here's some nostalgia for you old school players: https://gwpvx.gamepedia.com/PvX_wiki

    And finally a joke by the Ceo of Arenanet if you needed a laugh about the state of the game's balance after path of fire.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 4

    Well i would not mind if most WvW pvp players would return massivly for GW1............ maybe player should get organized and do that -.-#, that's actually a good pvp game to change for..
    RA/TA
    HA
    GvG
    AB rush n cap lol
    JQ
    FA
    so many pvp gamemodes were being played :\

    I would love to watch a gvg between the gw2 top players VS gw1 gvg's players :)º

    EDit: now i want to play gw1... gona download the client :>

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭

    It's not that dire armor is too strong (or the class that plays them), it's just people are to regimented in their old ways to either play classes that can counter the users of it, or simply disallow or shun them from joining the squad. There are 2 classes perfectly capable of dealing with them Rangers & Thieves(deadeyes), use them. They are a complete thorn in the side to scourge, much like how scourge is a thorn in the side to melee trains.

    The only thing Anet needs to fix at this point is resistance spam due to it's 100% up time capability. For anyone that's rolled a condition heavy classes has seen this message far too often for the duration of a fight "immune" "immune" "immune" "immune" "immune" "immune" "immune".

    There is nothing fun about having an entire damage type voided out. Why is there no access to 100% up time in physical immunity. Can Anet not change Scourge's barrier to physical immunity instead that's on a timer for however long it takes to run out 3-5 seconds? That way if enough scourge's are rolled, and it's coordinated, they can have complete physical immunity? Seems only fair right...

    Another change they should make is removing the effectiveness of toughness and armor. Part of the reason why so many people roll condition classes because it's next to futile to run a power based class when you do next to no damage. Slash the effectiveness of toughness and armor and you'll likely see far more power classes being rolled than condition.

    I really wish when these condition threads would pop up, the OP would ALSO mention the problem with condition immunity...

  • mulzi.8273mulzi.8273 Member ✭✭✭

    The simpliest bandaid would be to grant every class an extra 20k health in WvW only. This would resolve the one-hit wonders currently running around, along with surviving longer in the current condi meta. Lazy fix, but when you have a power/condi creep, they should have increase the health pool on all classes as well.

  • getalifeturd.8139getalifeturd.8139 Member ✭✭
    edited November 7

    Teamwork and synergy being encouraged makes a good game. If Arenanet isn't going to continue to develop Guild Wars 1 they should sell it to people who still care. Old school runescape got made only for nostalgia and it's popular and played by many.

    Nostalgia is not a problem and memories are good and should be cherished. People should be able to love and enjoy a game they played forever. Do not shut down a game because you made a sequel. Games are not movies...people spend hours grinding in them and love them.

    This video I'm going to post is proof that communities inspire games to become popular. PvP and WvWvW are the true end game Arenanet. We should not be ignored...We are your most passionate and dedicated players.

  • Offair.2563Offair.2563 Member ✭✭✭

    @Reaper Alim.4176 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    All i remmeber is that ANet said that PoF would be 100% pve sided, while spvp and wvw might receive some updates later, probably q3 2018 (my bet)

    I heard the same thing. Meaning more than likely means never. It's time to abandon that false hope guys and gals. You are only leading yourselves to total disappointment.

    Which will be soon when lots of people see balance patch and be disapointed not much changes wvw wise.

    Prove me wrong Anet

    Don't argue with idiots, they drag you down to their level and own you with experience.
    Big Babou, Ranger for life.

  • Hyper Cutter.9376Hyper Cutter.9376 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 6

    @Arimas.3492 said:
    but WvW content needs to be different and better. Performance needs improvement, WvW IMO should get entire map changes, >bigger maps, make mounts for WvW, change up siege and bring new siege in, more objectives for all types of groups etc.

    Every time they try introducing content, the player base starts howling for their blood.

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