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DE issues in wvw

So im not sure how much you are aware but after killing most of roaming builds (especially for war mains) anet didnt do much to do same for already broken DE. Class that daze and hit for 10k from hide, and able to go hide insta after is still promoting bad unfun play. Rise of de is showing that clearly. Any chance that anyone is looking into this ?

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Comments

  • Can we get the thief nerf threads consolidated? There's 2 or 3 of these in the actual WvW forum at the moment, and this one has already gone from DE discussion to general thief discussion.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Can't say I agree with that. Playing in multiple servers in both na/eu I only see thieves non-solo. For every 1 thief I come across there is at least five of something else. I still see mesmers trying to get their builds working but many fail to do so, but that could also just be newer players. I actually see a lot more warriors, necros, rangers, revs, guardians , and to some extent engis, running around especially on borderlands. I would even say there's a lack of thieves, but that's just my view from no-lifing it in as many time zones as I can in multiple servers.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Which matchup/region? I might be able to check it out

  • @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    so what? you are glass? Does not matter because you are stealthed up and highly mobile. Being glass means NOTHING on a class that can engage and disengage at will and without any risk for itself.

    Try glass ele. THAT is real glass. And does mediocre damage in comparism.

    Got hit by a 10k vault today. Really balanced. Really, really balanced.

    Thief needs to be either nuked with the nerf hammer or stealth has to be removed from the game.

    Thieves in all their variants are not 'roaming' classes. They are ganking classes. That simple. If one thing has killed 'roaming' which I see a lot btw, it is ganking.

    How do you nuke something with a hammer?

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kiranslee.4829 said:
    So im not sure how much you are aware but after killing most of roaming builds (especially for war mains) anet didnt do much to do same for already broken DE. Class that daze and hit for 10k from hide, and able to go hide insta after is still promoting bad unfun play. Rise of de is showing that clearly. Any chance that anyone is looking into this ?

    Stealthed, what's there to look at? :tongue:

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You can punish a de hard the moment they dodge, any channelled attack will track, including spectral grasp (nec) magnet (engie) bulls charge (war) they will immediately use shadow step and that is their primary stunbreak gone. Sure it's easier said then done.

  • yiksing.9432yiksing.9432 Member ✭✭

    Roam on spellbreaker with magebane, bulls charge and a dagger, spam 1 whenever DE dodge to stealth when you get close. Watch the DE cry.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2020

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    DE didn't kill roaming.

    Anet killed everything that roamed except Thief.

    And since they technically survived the massive nerf meteor, they are more or less the Apex predator of the roaming scene.

    And these days, yu see Thieves in zergs too, with their 1200 range Scorpion Wire and just Vault spam on yu.

    Thieves are the cockroaches that survived the meteor and are now the Alphas.

    +1

    -beta-

    'Right, and then he rolls away (like he does in the video) and is invisible again. It'd be one thing if stealth broke on damage, but it doesn't. This is a broken mechanic that needs tweaking.

    Hopefully Arenanet is getting plenty of feedback on the Beta boards about it.'

    • 2012

    'So im curious if any have had thiefs kite 10 or so poeple around in WvW.
    Honestly saw a guy pop out of stealth for 4 seconds do some burst, go back to stealth for 4 seconds, pop out do some burst immediatly back to stealth rinse repeat. If he ever got down to half health simply would stealth up and come out full health.The guy was simply not killable even with a group of 8-10 (pub not talking to each other) trying to kill him.'

    'It seemed slightly OP that he could seriously go into stealth continously and he was never in any danger of dyeing when facing 10x the numbers. Unless you can get off a chain CC until he is dead there was no killing this guy. And that seems OP to me, considering his burst potential.
    So my question is this…. how do you counter a thief that can go into stealth at any time, multiple times, non stop? Is this a bug? if not what counter is there? Its very frustrating so im asking for help in a 1v1, 2v1 and xv1 situation. FYI this is coming from a Mesmer and i thougth i had a ton of survivablity but this was just insane.'

    https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Thiefs-and-WvW

    • 2020

    -How To Perma-Stealth-

    'Situations that are present are there because you allow and tolerate them to continue'

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tuna Bandit.3786 said:
    Here we go again: Anet should NOT have killed Roaming.
    The problem does not lie with the DE.
    In order to hit THAT hard as you suggest, we need to run glass. VERY glass.

    The problem lies with zerging killing Roaming. Who wants to roam (other than with a deadeye) if you're basically instantly steamrolled the minute a zerg spots you?

    I can go on right now... go roaming into enemy territory and record how I will be steamrolled (GARUANTEED) if I don't have stealth capabilities.
    That video will litterly without editing be max 5 minutes.

    Nerve DE, and you nerved one of the last real roaming classes, and with that... the death of WvW.

    What you really need to do, is learn how to counter a DE. As many said before: If you know how to counter a DE, you can win relatively easy.

    So you characterize DE as being the only build capable of entering enemy territory without getting steamrolled by a zerg, as evidence that the elite spec isn't OP?

    /golf clap

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2020

    @cryorion.9532 said:
    I remember when I was joking with friend shortly after HoT release, about Gunflaming people from stealth in WvW, little did we know that ANet would add it years later as thief elite spec, but also with counter to counter, reveal removal elite. Very smart and thoughtful design /s
    There was(is?) even that super disgusting abomination, full valkyrie gear permastealth oneshot DE that cannot be oneshotted. So much fun to play against /s jUsT d0dG3 1nv1sIbL3 4tT4cKs. Anet's solution? Let's add useless traps in WvW and let people waste their resources instead of balancing the root of the issue! Yes!
    Removing reveal removal on elite would make significant difference. Deadeyes would actually have to use brain to decide if engage or not :O

    Except it doesn't pierce so anyone can bodyblock it, can't be used with a press of 2 buttons on any target you want as you need to mark 1 opponent, spam some kitten to get malice and then has a visual/audio cue so it's pretty clear where from it's being used. And also isn't "from stealth", because it reveals before/on cast. SuCh InViSiBlE AtTaCk! :D

    But sitting in perma stealth is garbage, so there's that.

  • Nirari.4827Nirari.4827 Member ✭✭
    edited April 10, 2020

    @kiranslee.4829 said:
    broken DE

    Broken. Seriously?

    They kill other fullglas builds if they run out doges, reflects, invuls and blocks, barrier or play without sound/ semiafk.
    I guess there are not much ppl, which lurk by a camp for hours and hours to wait for a solo, which hp go <50% to oneshoot.

    DE nowdays is a normal class.
    Sure they have big amounts of stealth, but stealth dont kills you and if sombody like to play a ghost who ismt doing anything but run around and look - okay.

    Its a difference between not gankable & broken.

  • cryorion.9532cryorion.9532 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 I was also talking about Malicious Backstab, that hit comes from permastealth. Idk if that valkyrie build is still working, but it relied on this one skill from permastealth and reveal removal elite, repeat. But the fact that reveal removal skill exists is just mindblowing.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ok. So it's not about "gunflaming people from stealth" then. And malicious backstab from permastealth has no malice charges, so at that point it's a regular backstab, just saying.

  • SlitheSlivier.1908SlitheSlivier.1908 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 14, 2020

    I don't think op knows what he is talking about. He just needs to learn to play against stealth builds, which isn't that hard really.

    FYI: if a thief is invisible, it's a moment of rest for both of you. He can't attack you without revealing himself. His daze comes from stealing which you should have a stun breaker for, and if not you still have to wait for steal to recharge again before using it

    If the 10k hit is what you are angry about, then why are you arguing about thief? Mesmers can do more damage than that almost instantaneously through creating phantasms and quickly shattering them. The difference is, thieves need a lot more set up and are easily dodged and in the end deal less damage.

    To get that damage, the player has to go full glass meaning only a couple hits from you (anything that didn't require setup) can kill it AND you are not running any toughness or damage mitigation. If you are worried about any of it, then start putting stats into toughness or use a class with higher armor, or proc protection. Also if it's a thief, he needs to build malice. That's easy to do against a player who isn't aggressive, doesn't dodge, block or evade. Do any of those and you make it much harder. If it's a mesmer, then it's probably more than 10k and they don't have to build up like that but instead use 3-4 skills near simultaneously.

    Also learn the classes. If you are whiney about the rifle stealth skill... that one is takes a like sec to use and it's obvious, giving you ample notice to dodge. If he is going for backstab, then just don't stand still or drop aoe. Guardians put up aegis and aoe traps, eles put down aoe or move, quickly, warriors use aegis or move quickly, necros put down marks and go into shroud, rangers use traps and stealth, mesmers stealth, other thieves stealth. If you are fighting a mesmer, dodge from phantasms to idk how much time you have to do it. And all those classes have access to toughness stats...glass breaks glass easily.

    Remember, you can't kill every build, it's more like rock paper scissors. Thieves can't either and struggle in more 1v1 scenarios than most.

    One more thing to keep in mind:
    Thieves primary defenses are dodging and stealth. That means that while they are defending themselves, they also can't do damage to you. (Yes some attacks have evade frames, but the evades generally don't last the entire attack and leave them open once you learn more about them). Most other classes rely on health and armor. This means while they are trying to not die, they are also not making you die, but while you are trying to not die, you are freely damaging them. It's a massive disadvantage thieves have that it's easily taken advantage of and the primary reason i often will play my necro instead.

  • Strider.7849Strider.7849 Member ✭✭✭

    Why are people saying that warrior is dead in WvW/roaming.. it can still work. Things are harder in outnumbered situations not because of nerfs but because conditions ramp up too quickly in fights like that. I think if they nerfed condition damage overall as well things would even out.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    i got hit by a 10k Worldy Impact from stealth the other day, anet plz completely delete [types name of skill into wiki to figure out which class that is] uhhh smokescale and red moa.

  • Senqu.8054Senqu.8054 Member ✭✭✭

    Thief right now is designed to spam stealth, evade or ports or everything together why should you defend a unfun playstlye like that. Call me old fashioned but I don’t think classes should be able to gain stealth that reliable for example with a dodge, or should have access to 7+ ports in the first 10 seconds of the fight, or should be able to use more then 6 evades in 10 seconds and still be able to disengage without any fear of getting caught. It is just frustrating to see a thief engaging and disengaging if he wants to without being able to do anything about it. I’m all for buffing thief but i right now in special thief vs thief looks too much like a DBZ fight to me.

  • SlitheSlivier.1908SlitheSlivier.1908 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 17, 2020

    Pretty much every other profession's defensive mechanics can be used while dealing damage, whether it's shroud, clones, high armor, blocks/aegis, passive heals, etc. Thieves rely on dodging and stealth, which means if it's on the defensive you aren't taking damage. If you can't use that to your advantage you need to l2p. It's a massive setback thieves have.

    Also it's easy to figure out where thieves are going in stealth... as said before, aoe or auto attack that spot and you will down them. It's also very predictable when they will break out of stealth and you should dodge.

    While a thief is "spamming evades and stealth" he hasn't doing damage and isn't helping the fight so please stop complaining saying that's bad...

    Just because you doing like a mechanic doesn't mean that the case for everyone. Some people think it's much more fun even if it's harder, riskier, and tends to lead to dying more. They like the poof poof mobility. Unfortunately thief damage in general is so nerfed and there are so many blocks these days that it is hard to do enough damage between steslths to do more dps than the target can heal without dying yourself. But some of us like the challenge of that balancing act.

  • Sleepwalker.1398Sleepwalker.1398 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't even bother with kneel anymore because Skirmisher's Shot is on such low initiative with spam and high damage.
    Double rifle - Binding Shadow and spam Skirmisher's Shot and M7.

  • mikdepadua.8376mikdepadua.8376 Member ✭✭✭

    @SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

    If the 10k hit is what you are angry about, then why are you arguing about thief? Mesmers can do more damage than that almost instantaneously through creating phantasms and quickly shattering them. The difference is, thieves need a lot more set up and are easily dodged and in the end deal less damage.

    I agree with everything except this. Poor choice of class to compare with as power mesmers are dead in the gutter in WvW nowadays. And you cant quickly shatter phantasms. They have to revert into clones. Even before, Deadeyes has a much simpler setup compared to Mesmers when it comes to burst.

  • SlitheSlivier.1908SlitheSlivier.1908 Member ✭✭✭

    @mikdepadua.8376 said:

    @SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

    If the 10k hit is what you are angry about, then why are you arguing about thief? Mesmers can do more damage than that almost instantaneously through creating phantasms and quickly shattering them. The difference is, thieves need a lot more set up and are easily dodged and in the end deal less damage.

    I agree with everything except this. Poor choice of class to compare with as power mesmers are dead in the gutter in WvW nowadays. And you cant quickly shatter phantasms. They have to revert into clones. Even before, Deadeyes has a much simpler setup compared to Mesmers when it comes to burst.

    I need to learn how to fight mesmers...i stuck against them so bad.
    Also 2 rangers running around wvw this morning kept killing me. Tho i didn't run with any food/utility boosts

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I used to farm deadeye's with a hammer rev. Might have to switch to dh idk.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 20, 2020

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Ok. So it's not about "gunflaming people from stealth" then. And malicious backstab from permastealth has no malice charges, so at that point it's a regular backstab, just saying.

    Technically they could run Malicious Intent for a +10% bonus damage to backstab just by marking and going for backstab, but these days, it doesn't mean much.

    The problem with DE these days is still the stupid Skirmisher's/Spotter's spam followed by undodgeable DJ thanks to Binding Shadow.
    And this is in addition to their easy and high frequency stealth access which lets them do this with little to no retaliation.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    DE's issue come from the fact that the thief is designed around the idea of "a burst of damage from stealth". This specific design is at the origin of the complains about thief since release of the vanilla game.

    The solution of the simple minded would be to significantly reduce the thief's stealth attack damage. However it would just mean that the thiefs would use the next high damage skill in line.

    The smart solution would be to add a significant damage debuff on stealth and reveal. This would solve most of the complains about burst from stealth for all professions. However, it also mean that the thief would be crippled at the very heart of it's design.

    The wise solution would be to push the design of the thief out of this idea of "a burst of damage from stealth". However this would need a lot of work (from deciding a new viable design encompassing both defense, offense and support, to making sure skills work properly and that the thematic of the thief is respected) from ANet's side.

    Most profession need similar fixs to the broken designs that are encroached at their very core but I guess it's easier for ANet to go the simple minded road and just tweak numbers for a playerbase's short lived satisfaction.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    DE's issue come from the fact that the thief is designed around the idea of "a burst of damage from stealth". This specific design is at the origin of the complains about thief since release of the vanilla game.

    The solution of the simple minded would be to significantly reduce the thief's stealth attack damage. However it would just mean that the thiefs would use the next high damage skill in line.

    The smart solution would be to add a significant damage debuff on stealth and reveal. This would solve most of the complains about burst from stealth for all professions. However, it also mean that the thief would be crippled at the very heart of it's design.

    The wise solution would be to push the design of the thief out of this idea of "a burst of damage from stealth". However this would need a lot of work (from deciding a new viable design encompassing both defense, offense and support, to making sure skills work properly and that the thematic of the thief is respected) from ANet's side.

    Most profession need similar fixs to the broken designs that are encroached at their very core but I guess it's easier for ANet to go the simple minded road and just tweak numbers for a playerbase's short lived satisfaction.

    I mostly agree about why it's considered problematic (tl;dr: class x is good because of a particular mechanics, take the mechanics away and the class is not worth picking or has no meaningful distinctions from the others), but lets not pretend that there is a possibility to swap a mechanic to the one that will magically stop whining and crying on the forum. There will always be "the optimal way" to build a class, there will always be classes that are stronger in certain aspect than the other classes and because of that people will always cry about some aspect of the game/class and demand nerfs as long as something can have an edge over what they currently chose to play. It doesn't matter that thief is garbage in zerg fights compared to -for example- necro, but somehow it's UNBELIEVABLY UNFAIR that the same thief can roam better than the same necro. I will gladly read about someone's "perfectly balanced mass class rework" that would stop all the tears from all of the 9 professions. Mainly because I don't think that's even remotely possible without taking 10 steps back in a freedom of picking your own builds and general class diversity. Duh, we can already see many unusable traits/weapons and the general forum population seems to be as whiny as always.
    I'm not saying we should just abandon any balancing attempts (moreover I think with proper involvement from the devs, the more-or-less-number-tweaks, including things like hard limits on time/stacks in case of something like stealth, should be enough to fix most of the issues), but removing mechanics while claiming it will fix the game and stop the complaints on the forum seems naive to me.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    I'm not saying we should just abandon any balancing attempts (moreover I think with proper involvement from the devs, the more-or-less-number-tweaks, including things like hard limits on time/stacks in case of something like stealth, should be enough to fix most of the issues), but removing mechanics while claiming it will fix the game and stop the complaints on the forum seems naive to me.

    I'm not saying that removing mechanism is the thing needed, I'm saying that there is a need to reallocate power or, in the case of the thief, find a way to make stealth attack attractive out of the plain damage way. And that to do so, it's needed to spread damage on the other abilities of the thief. Ultimately it's bound to be a complicated process and create disatisfaction in the thief community (because a lot of thiefs, if not all, are used to going all out on the burst out of stealth and adapting to new gameplay isn't an easy task.)

    You take the example of the necromancer and this profession face the same issue in a different way. To put it simply the necromancer's design philosophy is to put everything onto the shroud, be it defense, offense or support and nearly starve the profession while out of shroud. In the necromancer there is a need to lessen the power put on the shroud and redistribute it on the out of shroud state. There is no way around defensively for this profession as the shroud is the main defensive mechanism so some amount of damage/ damage bonus have to be redistributed from the shroud skills/traits to the out of shroud state. Like for the thief, this kind of balance is bound to create disatisfaction in the necromancer community but is a necessary way to truly balance the necromancer.

    The mesmer is also in a similar situation. Actually I think they even are in a worse situation. It's original design was to rely heavily on the burst of damage created by shatters and slowly but surely traits have been cumulated to reinforce this idea. It's to the point that right now shatters have become "rigid" and ANet can't work around them without breaking a few traits. This is mainly why the profession e-spec have nonsensical and crippling trade-offs. When ANet pushed more sustain damage onto the profession with their rework of fantasm, they didn't touch the shatter and, even worse, they pushed further onto the shatter burst with even more shatter traits. Their lack of flexibility regarding the shatters burst created the mesmer mess.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 20, 2020

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    I'm not saying we should just abandon any balancing attempts (moreover I think with proper involvement from the devs, the more-or-less-number-tweaks, including things like hard limits on time/stacks in case of something like stealth, should be enough to fix most of the issues), but removing mechanics while claiming it will fix the game and stop the complaints on the forum seems naive to me.

    I'm not saying that removing mechanism is the thing needed, I'm saying that there is a need to reallocate power or, in the case of the thief, find a way to make stealth attack attractive out of the plain damage way. And that to do so, it's needed to spread damage on the other abilities of the thief. Ultimately it's bound to be a complicated process and create disatisfaction in the thief community (because a lot of thiefs, if not all, are used to going all out on the burst out of stealth and adapting to new gameplay isn't an easy task.)

    You take the example of the necromancer and this profession face the same issue in a different way. To put it simply the necromancer's design philosophy is to put everything onto the shroud, be it defense, offense or support and nearly starve the profession while out of shroud. In the necromancer there is a need to lessen the power put on the shroud and redistribute it on the out of shroud state. There is no way around defensively for this profession as the shroud is the main defensive mechanism so some amount of damage/ damage bonus have to be redistributed from the shroud skills/traits to the out of shroud state. Like for the thief, this kind of balance is bound to create disatisfaction in the necromancer community but is a necessary way to truly balance the necromancer.

    Would it really cause dissatisfaction in necro community? Shroud seems to be a gating mechnic to some degree, which opens some windows for different gameplay decisions. Pulling power from shroud to out of shroud would just make the dmg easier to deal (FOR necro, not TO necro), while the defensive capabilities remain pretty much the same in the form of shroud. I'm not entirely sure how that would be inconvenient for the class itself. Where's the dissatisfaction? Less burst? Do we want skills to not be bursty at all? Just slap 1.0 coefficient on all of them and we're suddenly happy that we need to press 50 buttons of homogenized skills to kill something? Sounds boring to me. Meh.
    Maybe I just misunderstand the changes you propose, in that case you can explain :p

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm not going to read the walls of text but the problem with changing the heart of thief is that it's an all or none situation.

    If you go halfway then thief "has everything and no counters!".

    If you go all the way on change you potentially drive away those still playing thief.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

    @mikdepadua.8376 said:

    @SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

    If the 10k hit is what you are angry about, then why are you arguing about thief? Mesmers can do more damage than that almost instantaneously through creating phantasms and quickly shattering them. The difference is, thieves need a lot more set up and are easily dodged and in the end deal less damage.

    I agree with everything except this. Poor choice of class to compare with as power mesmers are dead in the gutter in WvW nowadays. And you cant quickly shatter phantasms. They have to revert into clones. Even before, Deadeyes has a much simpler setup compared to Mesmers when it comes to burst.

    I need to learn how to fight mesmers...i stuck against them so bad.
    Also 2 rangers running around wvw this morning kept killing me. Tho i didn't run with any food/utility boosts

    Run Aoe, cleave them and the clones. The real one is the one with signets, food buffs, banners, various XP modifiers etc. If you run Berserker you can double Arc Divider in the area you are sure they are in and down them and remove all the clones, any similar AoE bursts on other classes will do the same thing. Otherwise save hard CC for when you think they are complacent and CC/burst them, like if you are a Soulbeast use Hunter's Shot while merged on a clone, swap to GS, move in, Hilt Bash -> Maul -> Worldly Impact. Mesmer is one of those classes that once you get a bead and CC them you can generally knock a large chunk of health away quickly before they slip away. Taking a ranged weapon also helps.

  • SlitheSlivier.1908SlitheSlivier.1908 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

    @mikdepadua.8376 said:

    @SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

    If the 10k hit is what you are angry about, then why are you arguing about thief? Mesmers can do more damage than that almost instantaneously through creating phantasms and quickly shattering them. The difference is, thieves need a lot more set up and are easily dodged and in the end deal less damage.

    I agree with everything except this. Poor choice of class to compare with as power mesmers are dead in the gutter in WvW nowadays. And you cant quickly shatter phantasms. They have to revert into clones. Even before, Deadeyes has a much simpler setup compared to Mesmers when it comes to burst.

    I need to learn how to fight mesmers...i stuck against them so bad.
    Also 2 rangers running around wvw this morning kept killing me. Tho i didn't run with any food/utility boosts

    Run Aoe, cleave them and the clones. The real one is the one with signets, food buffs, banners, various XP modifiers etc. If you run Berserker you can double Arc Divider in the area you are sure they are in and down them and remove all the clones, any similar AoE bursts on other classes will do the same thing. Otherwise save hard CC for when you think they are complacent and CC/burst them, like if you are a Soulbeast use Hunter's Shot while merged on a clone, swap to GS, move in, Hilt Bash -> Maul -> Worldly Impact. Mesmer is one of those classes that once you get a bead and CC them you can generally knock a large chunk of health away quickly before they slip away. Taking a ranged weapon also helps.

    I meant as a DE. I can do a decent job on my necro. By the time i determine which is the real player in out of stealth.

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

    @mikdepadua.8376 said:

    @SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

    If the 10k hit is what you are angry about, then why are you arguing about thief? Mesmers can do more damage than that almost instantaneously through creating phantasms and quickly shattering them. The difference is, thieves need a lot more set up and are easily dodged and in the end deal less damage.

    I agree with everything except this. Poor choice of class to compare with as power mesmers are dead in the gutter in WvW nowadays. And you cant quickly shatter phantasms. They have to revert into clones. Even before, Deadeyes has a much simpler setup compared to Mesmers when it comes to burst.

    I need to learn how to fight mesmers...i stuck against them so bad.
    Also 2 rangers running around wvw this morning kept killing me. Tho i didn't run with any food/utility boosts

    Run Aoe, cleave them and the clones. The real one is the one with signets, food buffs, banners, various XP modifiers etc. If you run Berserker you can double Arc Divider in the area you are sure they are in and down them and remove all the clones, any similar AoE bursts on other classes will do the same thing. Otherwise save hard CC for when you think they are complacent and CC/burst them, like if you are a Soulbeast use Hunter's Shot while merged on a clone, swap to GS, move in, Hilt Bash -> Maul -> Worldly Impact. Mesmer is one of those classes that once you get a bead and CC them you can generally knock a large chunk of health away quickly before they slip away. Taking a ranged weapon also helps.

    I meant as a DE. I can do a decent job on my necro. By the time i determine which is the real player in out of stealth.

    Berserker was an example. The Soulbeast was another. If you are a DE, find the real Mesmer, build Malice on the clones, then stealth ->pew pew 1 key -> dead Mesmer. If you can't find the real one, then try to bring AoE for cleave.

  • SlitheSlivier.1908SlitheSlivier.1908 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

    @mikdepadua.8376 said:

    @SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

    If the 10k hit is what you are angry about, then why are you arguing about thief? Mesmers can do more damage than that almost instantaneously through creating phantasms and quickly shattering them. The difference is, thieves need a lot more set up and are easily dodged and in the end deal less damage.

    I agree with everything except this. Poor choice of class to compare with as power mesmers are dead in the gutter in WvW nowadays. And you cant quickly shatter phantasms. They have to revert into clones. Even before, Deadeyes has a much simpler setup compared to Mesmers when it comes to burst.

    I need to learn how to fight mesmers...i stuck against them so bad.
    Also 2 rangers running around wvw this morning kept killing me. Tho i didn't run with any food/utility boosts

    Run Aoe, cleave them and the clones. The real one is the one with signets, food buffs, banners, various XP modifiers etc. If you run Berserker you can double Arc Divider in the area you are sure they are in and down them and remove all the clones, any similar AoE bursts on other classes will do the same thing. Otherwise save hard CC for when you think they are complacent and CC/burst them, like if you are a Soulbeast use Hunter's Shot while merged on a clone, swap to GS, move in, Hilt Bash -> Maul -> Worldly Impact. Mesmer is one of those classes that once you get a bead and CC them you can generally knock a large chunk of health away quickly before they slip away. Taking a ranged weapon also helps.

    I meant as a DE. I can do a decent job on my necro. By the time i determine which is the real player in out of stealth.

    Berserker was an example. The Soulbeast was another. If you are a DE, find the real Mesmer, build Malice on the clones, then stealth ->pew pew 1 key -> dead Mesmer. If you can't find the real one, then try to bring AoE for cleave.

    Any good player will dodge the 1 stealth attack tho. I never manage to hit with it due to the long obvious non-stealthed pre-animation. I didn't know you could build malice on the clones, but makes sense. I'll give that a go. Some of them seem to stealth more than me haha...

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

    @mikdepadua.8376 said:

    @SlitheSlivier.1908 said:

    If the 10k hit is what you are angry about, then why are you arguing about thief? Mesmers can do more damage than that almost instantaneously through creating phantasms and quickly shattering them. The difference is, thieves need a lot more set up and are easily dodged and in the end deal less damage.

    I agree with everything except this. Poor choice of class to compare with as power mesmers are dead in the gutter in WvW nowadays. And you cant quickly shatter phantasms. They have to revert into clones. Even before, Deadeyes has a much simpler setup compared to Mesmers when it comes to burst.

    I need to learn how to fight mesmers...i stuck against them so bad.
    Also 2 rangers running around wvw this morning kept killing me. Tho i didn't run with any food/utility boosts

    Run Aoe, cleave them and the clones. The real one is the one with signets, food buffs, banners, various XP modifiers etc. If you run Berserker you can double Arc Divider in the area you are sure they are in and down them and remove all the clones, any similar AoE bursts on other classes will do the same thing. Otherwise save hard CC for when you think they are complacent and CC/burst them, like if you are a Soulbeast use Hunter's Shot while merged on a clone, swap to GS, move in, Hilt Bash -> Maul -> Worldly Impact. Mesmer is one of those classes that once you get a bead and CC them you can generally knock a large chunk of health away quickly before they slip away. Taking a ranged weapon also helps.

    I meant as a DE. I can do a decent job on my necro. By the time i determine which is the real player in out of stealth.

    Berserker was an example. The Soulbeast was another. If you are a DE, find the real Mesmer, build Malice on the clones, then stealth ->pew pew 1 key -> dead Mesmer. If you can't find the real one, then try to bring AoE for cleave.

    Any good player will dodge the 1 stealth attack tho. I never manage to hit with it due to the long obvious non-stealthed pre-animation. I didn't know you could build malice on the clones, but makes sense. I'll give that a go. Some of them seem to stealth more than me haha...

    Malice depends on who you have marked and you CAN mark a clone, and depending on the build you may just be using it for M7 and not care for when you sneak attack. You can always not mark the Mesmer before the stealth attack for less tell, then follow up with whatever general DPS your weapon bar has. If the OHKO method isn't working then use it to fish out dodges and DPS them hard otherwise.

  • aleron.1438aleron.1438 Member ✭✭✭

    Never seen a clone survive long enough to see M7 proc. And that's as a non zerk scholar DE (more like a brawler).
    Now back in DA Mug BQoBK days... that was a very valid tactic to vampire feed on them while mesm kited.

  • Chips.7968Chips.7968 Member ✭✭
    edited May 28, 2020

    @kiranslee.4829 said:
    So im not sure how much you are aware but after killing most of roaming builds (especially for war mains) anet didnt do much to do same for already broken DE. Class that daze and hit for 10k from hide, and able to go hide insta after is still promoting bad unfun play. Rise of de is showing that clearly. Any chance that anyone is looking into this ?

    For years they tweaked thief to remove such bonuses and abilities. After all, they gutted acro to put it into a paid expansion (daredevil). Then nerfed it's steal range, and other aspects of that specialisation... reintroduced prior nerfs into _another _paid expansion. Quelle surprise it's done bit by bit to slowly herd people towards paid content.

    The "rise of DE" (if there indeed is one? Not noticed) would align with their desired outcome.

    People pay money. It'll get nerfed for the year during/after the next specialisation (if there is one).

  • SlitheSlivier.1908SlitheSlivier.1908 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 28, 2020

    After extensively playing DE, it needs small buffs, not nerfs. Rifle+kneel+2 needs to be faster and do bare minimum 20% more damage to not be a downgrade to rifle 2. Deaths retreat needs to cost less initiative... no one uses it. Even with that, there is so much block and projectile hate (and need to maintain LoS) that DE still doesn't have a chance against decent Guardians and Warriors without something that provides "your initiative skills are unblockable for 2 seconds when you are revealed". Revs and rangers will still be an issue and for those it comes down to DE's really bad burst.

    The other problem is that since players who aren't good don't know how to handle stealth at all, it seems impossible to kill to them even tho it's far far far from true. Those are the players with the largest voice in these forums.

    I switch to my necro when i want to win a higher % of time or at least have a chance against a greater number of builds, but use DE when i get bored of the necromancer because it's exactly the playstyle i enjoy the most.

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭✭

    super funny, any logical people including myself have been saying a stealth long ranger thief will never happen, but anet be like "here's DE for you"
    and even thieves in thief forum voted for it.

    now it's stupid AF

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 30, 2020

    Are thieves steam-rolling everyone one-on-one or in small group battles?
    Are they effortlessly picking up kill after kill zerg-sailing?
    Are they making it impossible for other classes to do "roaming?"

    No, but, you see, they're annoying.

  • mikdepadua.8376mikdepadua.8376 Member ✭✭✭

    @ASP.8093 said:
    Are thieves steam-rolling everyone one-on-one or in small group battles?
    Are they effortlessly picking up kill after kill zerg-sailing?
    Are they making it impossible for other classes to do "roaming?"

    No, but, you see, they're annoying.

    Sounds fun

  • aleron.1438aleron.1438 Member ✭✭✭

    @ASP.8093 said:
    Are thieves steam-rolling everyone one-on-one or in small group battles?
    Are they effortlessly picking up kill after kill zerg-sailing?
    Are they making it impossible for other classes to do "roaming?"

    No, but, you see, they're annoying.

    Yes to each.
    Where did you see that a DE was supposed to be an ambient creature to enhance your panorama while you play? It's WvW. Be glad that 99% of DEs out there are just doing pitiful Somali pirates harassment instead of proper hunter killer submarining.