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Downed Penalty Why!


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I am writing in regards to a debilitating issue I am suffering, I’m hampered with “Downed Penalty”. This affects all my characters, and it makes the game progression very difficult, especially in competitive events and leveling new chars. I am always at a disadvantage, which restricts me in striding to try difficult content without the thought of failure, putting my party/squad into a disadvantage when downed in dynamic events. When I talk about it with other peeps many don’t know what I’m talking about and/or have never experienced it, so why do I have it and they don’t? How it is even fair or reasonable.
For example: in WvW when you have a two forty to fifty peep zergs fighting for supremacy, it can be tense and furious where you can get downed and rezed often which can help to win a battle, but with this infliction you are quickly downed and dead soon after making it harder for your commander to rely on you to sustain yourself in a fight. PvP is an exception, but in all other worlds you are disadvantaged. Some say; “well why not move away from the action to recover, it's only 60 seconds ”, this may be possible in some circumstances in WvE, but let’s see you do that in a Raid; in the middle of a boss fight or in any fast moving dynamic event. I say you obviously don’t play the same game or don't suffer its affect.This condition should be removed or given to all, though I do not wish this on anyone, and just want this curse removed so that I and if any other players inflicted are on an even playing field. If anyone else suffers this blight support me in its removal, as it’s arcane and a relic from the past which has no place in a dynamic fast moving game.

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Ah, then there's be no penalty for death since the cost to repair armor was removed. Yeah, but no. Usually every game has a penalty for death and for a reason. If you're a bad player, then death is meaningless since you'll only do subpar, die, go back and have learned nothing, but with a death penalty, you'll learn to get better, dodge, side step, mitigate damage all to stop death and it's penalties from happening. Sorry, but do not support.

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Everybody get's the Downed Penalty, if they know about the mechanic or not, not just you.The system is in place to prevent endless rallying, and if you get downed 4 times in 60 seconds, you skip downed state and die, while getting progressively less health in downed state until that point (-25% downed HP each downed state).Personally I think the system is pretty fair and if you get downed that much you are probably in over your head and just getting lucky with rallies/others having to spend time ressing you and likely deserve to kick it at that point.The system is easily circumvented by playing better and getting downed less, which is likely also why most people don't even know the system is even in place.

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The real answer is you're probably going down too often. Learn to use your dodge at the right time or change your build to give you more passive protection. It's true in zerg vs zerg people will go down, but if you stay on the commander, that's where the healing is usually focused. If you dont' stay on the commander you're far more likely to go down.

I'm playing the same game as you and the death penalty very rarely affects me.

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Unfortunately, in spite of having lots of classes and specs, this game tends to want you to be a glass cannon. I've never seen this addition of a downed state as a great idea to begin with but that's what we have. The penalty is reminiscent of the one you got in GW1 when dying and being ressed giving you a -15% each time and you had to clear away with killing stuff. That prevented endless slog fests particularly in HM, where if I remember right having your whole party on -60% was a wipe and resulted in a reset of the map. So for example with Vanquishing in HM. The game just decided you weren't ready for the content if you died that often and it made sense really.

In GW2 you can also clear it with killing mobs or resetting yourself. Not a big deal but yeah, if you go down a lot in WvW and not get any kills to clear the debuff then you will keep stacking it. It can be bad luck or "you're not doing it right". Mind you, I think WvW is a bit of a mess as it is with the aoe gimmick builds ruling the sieges. These builds have all of the advantages and none of the disadvantages it seems and add in the stealth snipers that can one shot people from stealth and the perma-evaders and it becomes a very gimmicky situation all around. That's why I only do it every so often (aside from WvW still being the same old maps for a long time).

All in all I think the downed penalty is fair though and I think the causes of why you are downed a lot are the real issue. Some of that could be down to yourself, some of it to how the game is set up. I'll make no judgment on the balance between the two but that's where I think you need to look for solutions.

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As the other said, what's probably happening is that you're dying too often and too easily. The downed penalty clears after a minute alive. That means each time, you're killed again within that minute. That is way too quickly. You need to time your dodges, heals and possible blocks to lenghten your Survival.

If you're having Real problems with avoiding attacks, find a way to have damage mitigating buffs on yourself, such as Protection and Regeneration. If you find yourself lacking in stamina for dodges, Endurance buff will help, and some sigil weapons even reset your stamina on kill.

As a rule of thumb, Always stay in movement, unless the situation is special (Raid), You want to strafe while firing, and you want to strafe while slashing. Make good use of any Crowd Control skill you have, any period of time you stun an enemy increases damage to them, but equally limit damage done to you. If you fight against conditions (bleeding/burning/poison/confusion/torment) it helps to have a Condi Cleanse skills that is -Not- your Healing skill.

Lastly, whenever possible, take care of your Equipment. Mismatched stats, and mismatched Runes and Sigils are Something new players frequently dont mind, until they hit a cold hard stone wall. Runes and Sigils, and a unified statline (That means your character have picked a role and wants to perform it well) is how most players tackle challenges.

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Everybody will get it after getting downed but I most people just don't notice it. If it is a problem you should work on staying alive. The game is already very lenient on death. You can basically get "killed" (downed) 4 times per minute and still come back with a help of your teammates. Most games just kill you the first time your hp drops to 0.Also getting downed all the time is really not OK in competitive. It is not just your time you are wasting but also time of your team mates and often the position during the fight.

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Absolutely everyone gets the downed penalty, it works exactly the same way for all races, professions and account types. If someone says they've never had it that means either they've never been downed (highly unlikely) or they never noticed it because it's only shown through a tiny arrow next to your health and they weren't paying enough attention to the UI to see it, or to notice their lower health if they got downed again during that time period.

Like your armour being damaged when you die the idea is to stop you constantly throwing yourself into a fight you cannot win. If you're getting downed or killed often enough to end up with broken armour or a severe downed penalty that's supposed to say that what you're doing isn't working and you need to take a moment to reassess your tactics instead of just continuing to do the same thing over and over without pause.

Especially if you're in a raid. They're designed to require specific tactics and coordination between all players in the squad, so if the same person is repeatedly getting downed everyone needs to consider what's going wrong and what they can do to prevent it in future. It might be that player is doing something wrong, like not moving out of red circles or moving away from/dodging especially dangerous attacks, in which case someone needs to explain what's going wrong and how to prevent it in future. Or it might be that the healer is spending too much time trying to damage the boss instead of supporting their allies, or someone who is supposed to prevent a specific and deadly mechanic isn't doing it right. Or the whole squad is doing something wrong, like not breaking the bosses definance bar in time to stop a massive attack.

It's impossible to say exactly what the problem is without knowing which raid it was and what went wrong, but even if it is a mistake you're making the rest of your squad could still help by giving you advice on how to prevent it in future. And it's certainly not because you've been mysteriously assisgned an unlucky account which gets a penalty no one else has.

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@Atom Nyx.7958 said:I am writing in regards to a debilitating issue I am suffering, I’m hampered with “Downed Penalty”. This affects all my characters, and it makes the game progression very difficult, especially in competitive events and leveling new chars. I am always at a disadvantage, which restricts me in striding to try difficult content without the thought of failure, putting my party/squad into a disadvantage when downed in dynamic events. When I talk about it with other peeps many don’t know what I’m talking about and/or have never experienced it, so why do I have it and they don’t? How it is even fair or reasonable.

For example: in WvW when you have a two forty to fifty peep zergs fighting for supremacy, it can be tense and furious where you can get downed and rezed often which can help to win a battle, but with this infliction you are quickly downed and dead soon after making it harder for your commander to rely on you to sustain yourself in a fight. PvP is an exception, but in all other worlds you are disadvantaged. Some say; “well why not move away from the action to recover, it's only 60 seconds ”, this may be possible in some circumstances in WvE, but let’s see you do that in a Raid; in the middle of a boss fight or in any fast moving dynamic event. I say you obviously don’t play the same game or don't suffer its affect.This condition should be removed or given to all, though I do not wish this on anyone, and just want this curse removed so that I and if any other players inflicted are on an even playing field. If anyone else suffers this blight support me in its removal, as it’s arcane and a relic from the past which has no place in a dynamic fast moving game.

What class do you play if you don't mind my asking? The reason I ask is so I can better understand the situation. I'd much rather know the circumstances as opposed to haphazardly giving advice.

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No don't change it. It's what allows some of us to win in outnumbered fights. When opponents will interrupt or cleave on the downed body to prevent from finisher stomping and/or revive faster than you can kill the downed player, the only way is to chain down the same player, in hopes you get better odds as the fight progresses.

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I don't mind the downed penalty or armor loss penalty, as frustrating as they can be. It is game world logic, though that I find ironically funny, like the game telling you "having a hard time completing this content? Here, try it with less are and less of a chance to revive yourself when downed. Don't have any armor left? I am sure you can do it naked ... or come back again later." Don't know how many walks of shame I have had to do to a repair station after a hard story boss fight. If I am lucky I got ubsalvaged low level armor I can put on to finish the fight.

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There's nothing wrong with the downed penalty. If one is going down that much, they are being a negative contribution to the fight because others must constantly put themselves in danger to res and risk being downed thmselves. They are being carried.

Even if we removed the downed penalty, it would actually be a better idea in most cases to let them die and finish the fight. This is especially true in wvw. There are some players which I don't res mid fight because I know they will put the group in danger. Their best use is as bait so enemies waste all their cooldowns on them.

Downed state is supposed to help. It is not meant to be a permanent state. There is no other way to put it. Bring a proper build and learn mechanics.

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@"ArchonWing.9480" said:There's nothing wrong with the downed penalty. If one is going down that much, they are being a negative contribution to the fight because others must constantly put themselves in danger to res and risk being downed thmselves. They are being carried.

That argument doesn't work so well now that there is the Noblesse Oblige mastery which will remove armor damage and downed penalty.

Even if we removed the downed penalty, it would actually be a better idea in most cases to let them die and finish the fight. This is especially true in wvw. There are some players which I don't res mid fight because I know they will put the group in danger. Their best use is as bait so enemies waste all their cooldowns on them.

Downed state is supposed to help. It is not meant to be a permanent state. There is no other way to put it. Bring a proper build and learn mechanics.

WvW and PvP are entirely different and it is very situational. On the one hand trying to revive allies with enemies around is just asking to be cleaved to death but on the other hand allowing that ally to die might end up rallying a bunch of enemies.

@"XatraZaytrax.2601" said:I don't mind the downed penalty or armor loss penalty, as frustrating as they can be. It is game world logic, though that I find ironically funny, like the game telling you "having a hard time completing this content? Here, try it with less are and less of a chance to revive yourself when downed. Don't have any armor left? I am sure you can do it naked ... or come back again later." Don't know how many walks of shame I have had to do to a repair station after a hard story boss fight. If I am lucky I got ubsalvaged low level armor I can put on to finish the fight.

If you get to the point where you need armor repair(8 deaths) then it is more of a sign from the game that you are woefully unprepared for the encounter and maybe you should reassess what you are bringing.

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@Khisanth.2948 said:

@"ArchonWing.9480" said:There's nothing wrong with the downed penalty. If one is going down that much, they are being a negative contribution to the fight because others must constantly put themselves in danger to res and risk being downed thmselves. They are being carried.

That argument doesn't work so well now that there is the
mastery which will remove armor damage and downed penalty.

Even if we removed the downed penalty, it would actually be a better idea in most cases to let them die and finish the fight. This is especially true in wvw. There are some players which I don't res mid fight because I know they will put the group in danger. Their best use is as bait so enemies waste all their cooldowns on them.

Downed state is supposed to help. It is not meant to be a permanent state. There is no other way to put it. Bring a proper build and learn mechanics.

WvW and PvP are entirely different and it is very situational. On the one hand trying to revive allies with enemies around is just asking to be cleaved to death but on the other hand allowing that ally to die might end up rallying a bunch of enemies.

@"XatraZaytrax.2601" said:I don't mind the downed penalty or armor loss penalty, as frustrating as they can be. It is game world logic, though that I find ironically funny, like the game telling you "having a hard time completing this content? Here, try it with less are and less of a chance to revive yourself when downed. Don't have any armor left? I am sure you can do it naked ... or come back again later." Don't know how many walks of shame I have had to do to a repair station after a hard story boss fight. If I am lucky I got ubsalvaged low level armor I can put on to finish the fight.

If you get to the point where you need armor repair(8 deaths) then it is more of a sign from the game that you are woefully unprepared for the encounter and maybe you should reassess what you are bringing.

Maybe, but I rarely take the hint. I just keep throwing myself at it until I find a way to win. Do that with each of my toons and each class.

If I leave and come back later it is because I have to get some sleep before work.

Don't get me wrong, I try different weapons and adjust builds, but I don't change armor stuff. That would mean giving up.

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@Khisanth.2948 said:

@"ArchonWing.9480" said:There's nothing wrong with the downed penalty. If one is going down that much, they are being a negative contribution to the fight because others must constantly put themselves in danger to res and risk being downed thmselves. They are being carried.

That argument doesn't work so well now that there is the
mastery which will remove armor damage and downed penalty.

My point is that it is risky to res another person because they can go down too. This can jeopardize the entire group's success if many people go down and others have to stop dpss'ing to res. In open world it isn't a big deal because most of it is trivial but in any instanced content or even difficult events they can really drag down their group. But even in open world it's better to just finish the fight and res later.

Armor damage has been irrelevant for the longest time so I didn't even consider that.

Even if we removed the downed penalty, it would actually be a better idea in most cases to let them die and finish the fight. This is especially true in wvw. There are some players which I don't res mid fight because I know they will put the group in danger. Their best use is as bait so enemies waste all their cooldowns on them.

Downed state is supposed to help. It is not meant to be a permanent state. There is no other way to put it. Bring a proper build and learn mechanics.

WvW and PvP are entirely different and it is very situational. On the one hand trying to revive allies with enemies around is just asking to be cleaved to death but on the other hand allowing that ally to die might end up rallying a bunch of enemies.

I dunno about PvP, but in WvW you can only rally 1 person if you die. Now of course there are good situations to res but if that player is a rallybot, it is much better to have them die and out of the fight then it is to have them down again like 5 seconds later and rally enemies.

Remember, I'm not referring to players that go down every now and then. That can always happen. But it's more about players that go down enough that downed penalty is enough to kill them on a regular basis. At that point they're not actually doing anything but actually dragging everyone down-- it would be better if they weren't there at all.

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I thank you all for the responses. That said, knowing that all get it makes it less selective punishment and more of game mechanics. This is my first MMO ever plaid and I had a steep learning curve for the first half year, much of it was daunting. It has been two years since; I have learned much and am a very competent player, with much expertise and high stats in all worlds I participate in. I do dodge, use skill rotation, builds... I spend time improving as a player. I may have died a lot in the beginning as I was learning, but not now. It would be a great help if as a new player you get a heads up on some of the crucial information when begging the game, as the adage goes “the past will catch up with you” as it caught up to me, as it will catch up to you. I still don’t like it but will except and adapt as I do and learn. It would be nice that if you die less overtime it would dissipate into the mist.

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Still doesn't help that you don't elaborate on the situation; you started this thread thinking you were the only one that was getting punished. People tell you otherwise, you go on to say you're a competent player, yet the downed penalty is frustrating you. I'm missing something, I know I am, I just don't know what.

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Yes I see your point. I got downed penalties because in the beginning I was learning and dying and had no thought that I was accumulating point that would lead to the said affect. I looked for information and asked others as I stated above, it felt like some but not all get it, a misconception or misunderstanding. I did my best to deal with it, but well it hurts a lot when you think your winning and you get downed and placed into a disadvantage and thinking you are the minority so suck it up or try to get it removed. So I posted to learn what the true state union is, pardon the pun! And here we are.

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@Atom Nyx.7958 said:Yes I see your point. I got downed penalties because in the beginning I was learning and dying and had no thought that I was accumulating point that would lead to the said affect. I looked for information and asked others as I stated above, it felt like some but not all get it, a misconception or misunderstanding. I did my best to deal with it, but well it hurts a lot when you think your winning and you get downed and placed into a disadvantage and thinking you are the minority so suck it up or try to get it removed. So I posted to learn what the true state union is, pardon the pun! And here we are.

Yeah, it does suck, but I look at it like this: The next battle won will be all the sweeter. Glad everything is squared away.

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I'm sorry, but you seed fixated with the time. That is not the crux of the issue; it's the health lose, compounded if you get downed again. Even if you have the luxury to evade your enemy for that time, you become null and void in your party, which can tip the balance between a win or lose. Especially if you’re a crucial member, for example; in fractals you may face [Adrenaline Rush], or [stick Together]... So it becomes a conundrum to how you mange this affect.

And yes, the sweet nectar of success is addictive, but tell me if it frustrates you not to have downed penalty at a crucial time!

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