Nobody wins with nerf wars.....many of you don't get it — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Nobody wins with nerf wars.....many of you don't get it

Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

There is a simple truth in MMOs that many fail or simply choose to ignore and that would be : nerfs to your class always follow nerfs to your counter . Are people so blinded by their bias that they forgot this simple truth? No matter what get nerfed...you'll get nerfed too in the end.

With less dmg...we get more unkillable bunkers...
less cleansing...more condi spam
and so on

-Symptom - consequence and action- , there is no escape from the nerf hammer, it comes for everybody and the more you ask for nerfs...the harder it will hit on your head later; right now there is not enough dmg to down condi bunkers who are asking for even more dmg nerfs.....you won't keep those condi bunkers for long, don't fool yourself

-A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

Comments

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    I've been trying to hammer this in since before the patch dropped. Game-wide nerfs won't magically create a balanced PvP landscape. Outliers will always exsist. Nerf those outliers and classes previously kept in check by said outliers will be come the new OP.

    You don't fix the symptoms.you fix the cause. The cause is slow patch cadence.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Elmo Benchwarmer.3025Elmo Benchwarmer.3025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In the meantime I'm having a great time playing my Berserker - sometimes Demolisher - amulet core Engineer. For the first time in 5 years I can run a build like that. I don't keel over instantaneously when I'm being targeted. With the very limited condition removal I have I can even deal with those "undying" bunkers. Sometimes I need to disengage but that happens against any other build too.

    Reducing the performance of elite specialisations was the only move. For the second biggest balance patch in the history of GW the result isn't half bad.

    Of course there were going to be outliers. I did not expect less. And even after those will have been addressed, there is going to be META builds that are better adjusted to the sPvP environment. The way it's going though, non optimised builds are finally not going to be dead weight. That is a win any way you spin it. And that is why I want to see the current trend being followed through.

    I'm off to enjoying my god mode Berserker amulet condition damage bruiser. 🙄

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2020

    @Sunshine.5014 said:
    It's disingenuous to think that people are asking for Nerfs randomly. People are asking for bringing the outliers back in line.

    That's is a clear outlier that needs to be fixed. Not only that, many of the Ranger's pets skills are way above the 2.0 ceiling scaling multiplier ANet talked about during the Great Nerf. Look at this 5.5 multiplier:

    I'm not saying we need to nerf all Ranger's pets. But we definitely need to bring those outliers back in line.

    Some of those are fine. If a huge hecking bear runs up to me and mauls me, I expect it to hurt. A 1.25 coefficient isn't going to kill me any time soon unless I'm literally afk.

    Canines however... 3.168? Really? xD. I too enjoy having an angry kitty which slashes with the force of a Prime Light Beam.

    Edit: I don't even want to know what these rangers have been feeding their owls.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2020

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    If a huge hecking bear runs up to me and mauls me, I expect it to hurt.

    Did you know your account name means Bear in Japanese? :)
    However, balance and lore are different. Maybe in pve sure, give bear 5 coefficient. In pvp, it should be balanced around its other skills and utility.

    Edit: I don't even want to know what these rangers have been feeding their owls.

    Well it's 2x attack with 5.5/2 coefficient each. That's still big but it's at least not 5.5 each xD

  • Sunshine.5014Sunshine.5014 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @Sunshine.5014 said:
    It's disingenuous to think that people are asking for Nerfs randomly. People are asking for bringing the outliers back in line.

    That's is a clear outlier that needs to be fixed. Not only that, many of the Ranger's pets skills are way above the 2.0 ceiling scaling multiplier ANet talked about during the Great Nerf. Look at this 5.5 multiplier:

    I'm not saying we need to nerf all Ranger's pets. But we definitely need to bring those outliers back in line.

    Some of those are fine. If a huge hecking bear runs up to me and mauls me, I expect it to hurt. A 1.25 coefficient isn't going to kill me any time soon unless I'm literally afk.

    Canines however... 3.168? Really? xD. I too enjoy having an angry kitty which slashes with the force of a Prime Light Beam.

    Edit: I don't even want to know what these rangers have been feeding their owls.

    My bad, it's Bird for the third one, not Canine. But the point still stands. 3.168 is still way too much.

  • Twigifire.8379Twigifire.8379 Member ✭✭
    edited March 8, 2020

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    I too enjoy having an angry kitty which slashes with the force of a Prime Light Beam.

    Yeah prime light only does 30 dmg now, so maybe imagine like 500 Prime light Beams instead

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sunshine.5014 said:
    It's disingenuous to think that people are asking for Nerfs randomly. People are asking for bringing the outliers back in line.

    That's is a clear outlier that needs to be fixed. Not only that, many of the Ranger's pets skills are way above the 2.0 ceiling scaling multiplier ANet talked about during the Great Nerf. Look at this 5.5 multiplier:

    I'm not saying we need to nerf all Ranger's pets. But we definitely need to bring those outliers back in line.

    Bears and dogs have 800 toughness more than birds by design, the bird dies in a single aoe rotation and that's why they're not used outside duels.
    What I realized is that players here just want to facetank all your efforts to kill them while they walk all over you....in their mind you should do no threatening dmg so that they don't need to dodge or heal even once, so nerf maul...nerf rapid fire...nerf multipliers..nerf pets doing dmg....there is a nerf thread for each one of them so....

    There would be no game to play if the devs would bend over and listen to even half of the forum

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Twigifire.8379 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    I too enjoy having an angry kitty which slashes with the force of a Prime Light Beam.

    Yeah prime light only does 30 dmg now, so maybe imagine like 500 Prime light Beams instead

    Holosmith still heal like a bunker while being a supposedly a dmg spec..there is that too, it still deal above decent dmg with the whole package and it still has plenty of options to disengage and CC

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2020

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    I've been trying to hammer this in since before the patch dropped. Game-wide nerfs won't magically create a balanced PvP landscape. Outliers will always exsist. Nerf those outliers and classes previously kept in check by said outliers will be come the new OP.

    You don't fix the symptoms.you fix the cause. The cause is slow patch cadence.

    +10

    'Situations that are present are there because you allow and tolerate them to continue'

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @Sunshine.5014 said:
    It's disingenuous to think that people are asking for Nerfs randomly. People are asking for bringing the outliers back in line.

    That's is a clear outlier that needs to be fixed. Not only that, many of the Ranger's pets skills are way above the 2.0 ceiling scaling multiplier ANet talked about during the Great Nerf. Look at this 5.5 multiplier:

    I'm not saying we need to nerf all Ranger's pets. But we definitely need to bring those outliers back in line.

    Some of those are fine. If a huge hecking bear runs up to me and mauls me, I expect it to hurt. A 1.25 coefficient isn't going to kill me any time soon unless I'm literally afk.

    Canines however... 3.168? Really? xD. I too enjoy having an angry kitty which slashes with the force of a Prime Light Beam.

    Edit: I don't even want to know what these rangers have been feeding their owls.

    That's the whole point of nerf threads...they don't want your pets to do anything...just nothing, not even enough dmg to tickle you

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You made a ton of posts asking for nerfs on other professions.
    Is it that yours is on the line now so you miraculously saw the light?

    The degenerate

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    You made a ton of posts asking for nerfs on other professions.
    Is it that yours is on the line now so you miraculously saw the light?

    All my nerfs were direct and straight to the point, where I mention the specific problem and that alone...I dare you to go and try to find otherwise in my threads..I dare you to go and post it here. Not once! Not even once I asked for a profession to be removed from the spectrum of viability , I know what makes each profession tick, I ask to reduce specific aspects of a class...not stopping them from being any kind of threat to me and that's the main difference between me and the likes of you and those who act like you.

    Many of you want that or that other profession completely neutered and out of the picture....that's not balance of any sort. also...for the last time as I am tired of repeating myself on this : I have several mains and I asked for heavy nerfs on ranger in the past , on boonbeast and druid, going against the whole ranger forum where I posted them because I don't cower like you...I can hold my argument because I know what I am talking about, I don't post a cropped image and start whining left and right.

    And the point of this thread stand...once one of the professions I play is neutered out of viability.,..what do you think will happen to yours?

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    You made a ton of posts asking for nerfs on other professions.
    Is it that yours is on the line now so you miraculously saw the light?

    All my nerfs were direct and straight to the point, where I mention the specific problem and that alone...I dare you to go and try to find otherwise in my threads..I dare you to go and post it here. Not once! Not even once I asked for a profession to be removed from the spectrum of viability , I know what makes each profession tick, I ask to reduce specific aspects of a class...not stopping them from being any kind of threat to me and that's the main difference between me and the likes of you and those who act like you.

    Many of you want that or that other profession completely neutered and out of the picture....that's not balance of any sort. also...for the last time as I am tired of repeating myself on this : I have several mains and I asked for heavy nerfs on ranger in the past , on boonbeast and druid, going against the whole ranger forum where I posted them because I don't cower like you...I can hold my argument because I know what I am talking about, I don't post a cropped image and start whining left and right.

    And the point of this thread stand...once one of the professions I play is neutered out of viability.,..what do you think will happen to yours?

    The others nerfs are also straight to the point, such as the ones that you're trying to avoid.
    Mine? Was already, quoting you "neutered" in part thanks to your efforts.

    @apharma.3741 said:
    This however is all smoke and mirrors to stave off the inevitable addressing of ranger, your efforts would be better placed promoting a post by Ovark linked below as it targets a factor that might stop ranger getting chrono'd.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/99808/5y-later-smokescale-is-still-the-strongest-pet-hands-down

    Indeed
    So obvious it hurts.

    The degenerate

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @Sunshine.5014 said:
    It's disingenuous to think that people are asking for Nerfs randomly. People are asking for bringing the outliers back in line.

    That's is a clear outlier that needs to be fixed. Not only that, many of the Ranger's pets skills are way above the 2.0 ceiling scaling multiplier ANet talked about during the Great Nerf. Look at this 5.5 multiplier:

    I'm not saying we need to nerf all Ranger's pets. But we definitely need to bring those outliers back in line.

    Some of those are fine. If a huge hecking bear runs up to me and mauls me, I expect it to hurt. A 1.25 coefficient isn't going to kill me any time soon unless I'm literally afk.

    Canines however... 3.168? Really? xD. I too enjoy having an angry kitty which slashes with the force of a Prime Light Beam.

    Edit: I don't even want to know what these rangers have been feeding their owls.

    I actually was laughing my kitten off hearing HOOT HOOT while being pecked. The thought of a owl pecking me to death for that much is so unreal.

    If it was a eagle? sure a owl? i don't think of killer owls.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2020

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    You made a ton of posts asking for nerfs on other professions.
    Is it that yours is on the line now so you miraculously saw the light?

    All my nerfs were direct and straight to the point, where I mention the specific problem and that alone...I dare you to go and try to find otherwise in my threads..I dare you to go and post it here. Not once! Not even once I asked for a profession to be removed from the spectrum of viability , I know what makes each profession tick, I ask to reduce specific aspects of a class...not stopping them from being any kind of threat to me and that's the main difference between me and the likes of you and those who act like you.

    Many of you want that or that other profession completely neutered and out of the picture....that's not balance of any sort. also...for the last time as I am tired of repeating myself on this : I have several mains and I asked for heavy nerfs on ranger in the past , on boonbeast and druid, going against the whole ranger forum where I posted them because I don't cower like you...I can hold my argument because I know what I am talking about, I don't post a cropped image and start whining left and right.

    And the point of this thread stand...once one of the professions I play is neutered out of viability.,..what do you think will happen to yours?

    The others nerfs are also straight to the point, such as the ones that you're trying to avoid.
    Mine? Was already, quoting you "neutered" in part thanks to your efforts.

    @apharma.3741 said:
    This however is all smoke and mirrors to stave off the inevitable addressing of ranger, your efforts would be better placed promoting a post by Ovark linked below as it targets a factor that might stop ranger getting chrono'd.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/99808/5y-later-smokescale-is-still-the-strongest-pet-hands-down

    Indeed
    So obvious it hurts.

    The neutered professions magically return always to the spotlight so again my question : what did you accomplish for the last 8 years other than swapping around classes from viable state?

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    You made a ton of posts asking for nerfs on other professions.
    Is it that yours is on the line now so you miraculously saw the light?

    All my nerfs were direct and straight to the point, where I mention the specific problem and that alone...I dare you to go and try to find otherwise in my threads..I dare you to go and post it here. Not once! Not even once I asked for a profession to be removed from the spectrum of viability , I know what makes each profession tick, I ask to reduce specific aspects of a class...not stopping them from being any kind of threat to me and that's the main difference between me and the likes of you and those who act like you.

    Many of you want that or that other profession completely neutered and out of the picture....that's not balance of any sort. also...for the last time as I am tired of repeating myself on this : I have several mains and I asked for heavy nerfs on ranger in the past , on boonbeast and druid, going against the whole ranger forum where I posted them because I don't cower like you...I can hold my argument because I know what I am talking about, I don't post a cropped image and start whining left and right.

    And the point of this thread stand...once one of the professions I play is neutered out of viability.,..what do you think will happen to yours?

    The others nerfs are also straight to the point, such as the ones that you're trying to avoid.
    Mine? Was already, quoting you "neutered" in part thanks to your efforts.

    @apharma.3741 said:
    This however is all smoke and mirrors to stave off the inevitable addressing of ranger, your efforts would be better placed promoting a post by Ovark linked below as it targets a factor that might stop ranger getting chrono'd.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/99808/5y-later-smokescale-is-still-the-strongest-pet-hands-down

    Indeed
    So obvious it hurts.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    You made a ton of posts asking for nerfs on other professions.
    Is it that yours is on the line now so you miraculously saw the light?

    All my nerfs were direct and straight to the point, where I mention the specific problem and that alone...I dare you to go and try to find otherwise in my threads..I dare you to go and post it here. Not once! Not even once I asked for a profession to be removed from the spectrum of viability , I know what makes each profession tick, I ask to reduce specific aspects of a class...not stopping them from being any kind of threat to me and that's the main difference between me and the likes of you and those who act like you.

    Many of you want that or that other profession completely neutered and out of the picture....that's not balance of any sort. also...for the last time as I am tired of repeating myself on this : I have several mains and I asked for heavy nerfs on ranger in the past , on boonbeast and druid, going against the whole ranger forum where I posted them because I don't cower like you...I can hold my argument because I know what I am talking about, I don't post a cropped image and start whining left and right.

    And the point of this thread stand...once one of the professions I play is neutered out of viability.,..what do you think will happen to yours?

    The others nerfs are also straight to the point, such as the ones that you're trying to avoid.
    Mine? Was already, quoting you "neutered" in part thanks to your efforts.

    @apharma.3741 said:
    This however is all smoke and mirrors to stave off the inevitable addressing of ranger, your efforts would be better placed promoting a post by Ovark linked below as it targets a factor that might stop ranger getting chrono'd.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/99808/5y-later-smokescale-is-still-the-strongest-pet-hands-down

    Indeed
    So obvious it hurts.

    The neutered professions magically return always to the spotlight so again my question : what did you accomplish for the last 8 years other than swapping around classes from viable state?

    This is why I said the minutia is lost on people making this claim. You buff and nerf around an average power level to switch up the meta and keep the game interesting, something becomes a bit stronger for a while, sometimes a little weaker but it encourages people to try a few different things and play different style.

    Where the current remark comes off as smol bran is because we've just had a big redress of 5 years of power creep where some aspects will have been missed for a variety of reasons and still need bringing down to the new power level in this case. That's without also mentioning the new power level is still in a state of flux as the devs figure out where they want the game to be.

    That means the premise of the post is wrong because it applies to when the power level is not in so much flux or has had a monumental shift.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    Unfortunately there's a lot of smol bran people propagating this falsehood. It is true if you are in a repeated cycle of nerfs/buffs around an average power level. Even then the minutia of what this accomplishes is lost on those saying this.

    Where this becomes smol bran is when nerfs are used to create a grand shift in game play altogether, like this big patch was aimed at doing, and largely succeeded at. No longer can you just run a counter and easy faceroll everything else and what you counter needs an extraordinary skill advantage to win or have your build with little to no counter at all able to run around with impunity.

    This however is all smoke and mirrors to stave off the inevitable addressing of ranger, your efforts would be better placed promoting a post by Ovark linked below as it targets a factor that might stop ranger getting chrono'd.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/99808/5y-later-smokescale-is-still-the-strongest-pet-hands-down

    Apharma, be polite

    It was not directed at anyone in particular and more of a cautionary against using derived knowledge without knowing or understanding it's context. Regardless my last part was right on the money, Ovark's post should be getting more attention as it outlines a big problem not only for rangers but those fighting rangers.

    As for politeness I gave my post every ounce of civility it deserved.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    I've been trying to hammer this in since before the patch dropped. Game-wide nerfs won't magically create a balanced PvP landscape. Outliers will always exsist. Nerf those outliers and classes previously kept in check by said outliers will be come the new OP.

    i'm curious, what do you consider an acceptable outlier? myself I think both one shot builds and unkillable bunkers are outliers. a skill taking away half my health is fine if it has a decent animation and cd. been hit by 12k vault, 18k arc divider (downed after 1 hit that was 6k so i'm assuming the total was 18k), soulbeast lb 100-0, and mes one shot from stealth all post patch. I've also fought plenty of bunkers that don't really do anything other then survive and poke, and I think its kinda funny that people are complaining about them cuz they don't really do anything other then sit on point and die slowly. every time I've faced a bunker necro, if our team was decent, we've destroyed it.

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    You made a ton of posts asking for nerfs on other professions.
    Is it that yours is on the line now so you miraculously saw the light?

    All my nerfs were direct and straight to the point, where I mention the specific problem and that alone...I dare you to go and try to find otherwise in my threads..I dare you to go and post it here. Not once! Not even once I asked for a profession to be removed from the spectrum of viability , I know what makes each profession tick, I ask to reduce specific aspects of a class...not stopping them from being any kind of threat to me and that's the main difference between me and the likes of you and those who act like you.

    Many of you want that or that other profession completely neutered and out of the picture....that's not balance of any sort. also...for the last time as I am tired of repeating myself on this : I have several mains and I asked for heavy nerfs on ranger in the past , on boonbeast and druid, going against the whole ranger forum where I posted them because I don't cower like you...I can hold my argument because I know what I am talking about, I don't post a cropped image and start whining left and right.

    And the point of this thread stand...once one of the professions I play is neutered out of viability.,..what do you think will happen to yours?

    The others nerfs are also straight to the point, such as the ones that you're trying to avoid.
    Mine? Was already, quoting you "neutered" in part thanks to your efforts.

    @apharma.3741 said:
    This however is all smoke and mirrors to stave off the inevitable addressing of ranger, your efforts would be better placed promoting a post by Ovark linked below as it targets a factor that might stop ranger getting chrono'd.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/99808/5y-later-smokescale-is-still-the-strongest-pet-hands-down

    Indeed
    So obvious it hurts.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    You made a ton of posts asking for nerfs on other professions.
    Is it that yours is on the line now so you miraculously saw the light?

    All my nerfs were direct and straight to the point, where I mention the specific problem and that alone...I dare you to go and try to find otherwise in my threads..I dare you to go and post it here. Not once! Not even once I asked for a profession to be removed from the spectrum of viability , I know what makes each profession tick, I ask to reduce specific aspects of a class...not stopping them from being any kind of threat to me and that's the main difference between me and the likes of you and those who act like you.

    Many of you want that or that other profession completely neutered and out of the picture....that's not balance of any sort. also...for the last time as I am tired of repeating myself on this : I have several mains and I asked for heavy nerfs on ranger in the past , on boonbeast and druid, going against the whole ranger forum where I posted them because I don't cower like you...I can hold my argument because I know what I am talking about, I don't post a cropped image and start whining left and right.

    And the point of this thread stand...once one of the professions I play is neutered out of viability.,..what do you think will happen to yours?

    The others nerfs are also straight to the point, such as the ones that you're trying to avoid.
    Mine? Was already, quoting you "neutered" in part thanks to your efforts.

    @apharma.3741 said:
    This however is all smoke and mirrors to stave off the inevitable addressing of ranger, your efforts would be better placed promoting a post by Ovark linked below as it targets a factor that might stop ranger getting chrono'd.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/99808/5y-later-smokescale-is-still-the-strongest-pet-hands-down

    Indeed
    So obvious it hurts.

    The neutered professions magically return always to the spotlight so again my question : what did you accomplish for the last 8 years other than swapping around classes from viable state?

    This is why I said the minutia is lost on people making this claim. You buff and nerf around an average power level to switch up the meta and keep the game interesting, something becomes a bit stronger for a while, sometimes a little weaker but it encourages people to try a few different things and play different style.

    Where the current remark comes off as smol bran is because we've just had a big redress of 5 years of power creep where some aspects will have been missed for a variety of reasons and still need bringing down to the new power level in this case. That's without also mentioning the new power level is still in a state of flux as the devs figure out where they want the game to be.

    That means the premise of the post is wrong because it applies to when the power level is not in so much flux or has had a monumental shift.

    There is no "average power level" because nerf threads won't stop till one profession is neutered out of viability as is with ele periodically , they have been "trying to figure out" where game meant to be for the last 8 years with no success...the only constant is overnerfing to please forum outcry

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    You made a ton of posts asking for nerfs on other professions.
    Is it that yours is on the line now so you miraculously saw the light?

    All my nerfs were direct and straight to the point, where I mention the specific problem and that alone...I dare you to go and try to find otherwise in my threads..I dare you to go and post it here. Not once! Not even once I asked for a profession to be removed from the spectrum of viability , I know what makes each profession tick, I ask to reduce specific aspects of a class...not stopping them from being any kind of threat to me and that's the main difference between me and the likes of you and those who act like you.

    Many of you want that or that other profession completely neutered and out of the picture....that's not balance of any sort. also...for the last time as I am tired of repeating myself on this : I have several mains and I asked for heavy nerfs on ranger in the past , on boonbeast and druid, going against the whole ranger forum where I posted them because I don't cower like you...I can hold my argument because I know what I am talking about, I don't post a cropped image and start whining left and right.

    And the point of this thread stand...once one of the professions I play is neutered out of viability.,..what do you think will happen to yours?

    The others nerfs are also straight to the point, such as the ones that you're trying to avoid.
    Mine? Was already, quoting you "neutered" in part thanks to your efforts.

    @apharma.3741 said:
    This however is all smoke and mirrors to stave off the inevitable addressing of ranger, your efforts would be better placed promoting a post by Ovark linked below as it targets a factor that might stop ranger getting chrono'd.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/99808/5y-later-smokescale-is-still-the-strongest-pet-hands-down

    Indeed
    So obvious it hurts.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    You made a ton of posts asking for nerfs on other professions.
    Is it that yours is on the line now so you miraculously saw the light?

    All my nerfs were direct and straight to the point, where I mention the specific problem and that alone...I dare you to go and try to find otherwise in my threads..I dare you to go and post it here. Not once! Not even once I asked for a profession to be removed from the spectrum of viability , I know what makes each profession tick, I ask to reduce specific aspects of a class...not stopping them from being any kind of threat to me and that's the main difference between me and the likes of you and those who act like you.

    Many of you want that or that other profession completely neutered and out of the picture....that's not balance of any sort. also...for the last time as I am tired of repeating myself on this : I have several mains and I asked for heavy nerfs on ranger in the past , on boonbeast and druid, going against the whole ranger forum where I posted them because I don't cower like you...I can hold my argument because I know what I am talking about, I don't post a cropped image and start whining left and right.

    And the point of this thread stand...once one of the professions I play is neutered out of viability.,..what do you think will happen to yours?

    The others nerfs are also straight to the point, such as the ones that you're trying to avoid.
    Mine? Was already, quoting you "neutered" in part thanks to your efforts.

    @apharma.3741 said:
    This however is all smoke and mirrors to stave off the inevitable addressing of ranger, your efforts would be better placed promoting a post by Ovark linked below as it targets a factor that might stop ranger getting chrono'd.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/99808/5y-later-smokescale-is-still-the-strongest-pet-hands-down

    Indeed
    So obvious it hurts.

    The neutered professions magically return always to the spotlight so again my question : what did you accomplish for the last 8 years other than swapping around classes from viable state?

    This is why I said the minutia is lost on people making this claim. You buff and nerf around an average power level to switch up the meta and keep the game interesting, something becomes a bit stronger for a while, sometimes a little weaker but it encourages people to try a few different things and play different style.

    Where the current remark comes off as smol bran is because we've just had a big redress of 5 years of power creep where some aspects will have been missed for a variety of reasons and still need bringing down to the new power level in this case. That's without also mentioning the new power level is still in a state of flux as the devs figure out where they want the game to be.

    That means the premise of the post is wrong because it applies to when the power level is not in so much flux or has had a monumental shift.

    There is no "average power level" because nerf threads won't stop till one profession is neutered out of viability as is with ele periodically , they have been "trying to figure out" where game meant to be for the last 8 years with no success...the only constant is overnerfing to please forum outcry

    If you ever played core GW2 you will know that when HoT arrived elite specs were without a doubt better than anything you could make on core. No matter which way you cut it this new power level represented by the elite specs was always better than anything you could run on core and this continued on into PoF till about halfway through PoF where they started buffing core aspects and we saw some core builds come into the meta.

    However without a shadow of a doubt any build you made after PoF hit had a higher power level than in core, even "core builds". As @bluri.2653 said when asked about thief's strength after HoT when thief wasn't meta "Thief has never been more powerful" because it was just stronger then than it ever had been, even though it was weak in the current meta.

    You're mistaking cyclical meta changes with flat power level changes across the game, one is (meant to be) a more frequent cyclical change happening every month or two while the other a bigger less frequent shift in direction over many years.

  • Dralor.3701Dralor.3701 Member ✭✭✭

    Any game with competitive play has nerfs, sorry.

  • ParadoX.3124ParadoX.3124 Member ✭✭✭

    Yeah tell that to ranger pets and condi rev

  • Apolo.5942Apolo.5942 Member ✭✭✭

    More bunkers is a very good thing, this game was never meant to be lol, to get you kill with 3 skills.

    The meta needed to slow the kitten down since HoT.

    Conditions need to be normalized:
    1- SINGLE PLAYER conditions stack on DURATION.
    2- MULTIPLE PLAYERS conditions stack on INTENSITY.
    3- REBALANCE condition duration, damage and application.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ParadoX.3124 said:
    Yeah tell that to ranger pets and condi rev

    I am pretty certain pets are currently under ANet's sight, they have to decide what to do with them, if anything. I can't guess what goalpost they will set on rangers / pets, but for sure what they don't want is a bunker ranger paired up with a killer pet, as that would be against the offense/defense balance that builds should have.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Skotlex.7580 said:

    @ParadoX.3124 said:
    Yeah tell that to ranger pets and condi rev

    I am pretty certain pets are currently under ANet's sight, they have to decide what to do with them, if anything. I can't guess what goalpost they will set on rangers / pets, but for sure what they don't want is a bunker ranger paired up with a killer pet, as that would be against the offense/defense balance that builds should have.

    Under that philosophy they should delete core necro and core rev then

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Sunshine.5014Sunshine.5014 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Skotlex.7580 said:

    @ParadoX.3124 said:
    Yeah tell that to ranger pets and condi rev

    I am pretty certain pets are currently under ANet's sight, they have to decide what to do with them, if anything. I can't guess what goalpost they will set on rangers / pets, but for sure what they don't want is a bunker ranger paired up with a killer pet, as that would be against the offense/defense balance that builds should have.

    Under that philosophy they should delete core necro and core rev then

    I don't get why people keep spouting extremes when discussing balance like this. No, ANet are not looking to delete spec. They are looking to fix outliers. They are looking to bring them back in line.

    Saying the nerfs will delete the spec is extremely non productive.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2020

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Under that philosophy they should delete core necro and core rev then

    Look at latest patch notes, they are already being addressed.

    @Sunshine.5014 said:
    I don't get why people keep spouting extremes when discussing balance like this. No, ANet are not looking to delete spec. They are looking to fix outliers. They are looking to bring them back in line.

    Saying the nerfs will delete the spec is extremely non productive.

    hyperbole doesn't help in discussing balance, which is probably why most of the forum discussions around the topic need to be taken with a pound of salt. :(

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sunshine.5014 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Skotlex.7580 said:

    @ParadoX.3124 said:
    Yeah tell that to ranger pets and condi rev

    I am pretty certain pets are currently under ANet's sight, they have to decide what to do with them, if anything. I can't guess what goalpost they will set on rangers / pets, but for sure what they don't want is a bunker ranger paired up with a killer pet, as that would be against the offense/defense balance that builds should have.

    Under that philosophy they should delete core necro and core rev then

    I don't get why people keep spouting extremes when discussing balance like this. No, ANet are not looking to delete spec. They are looking to fix outliers. They are looking to bring them back in line.

    Saying the nerfs will delete the spec is extremely non productive.

    Outliers compared to what and where?
    We're not talking based on an official tournament among top players, where you see a spec clearly dominating the whole match...no...what we see are a Tom and Fred running God knows what, getting killed under peculiar circumstances , come on the forum and ask for nerfs.

    When a spec clearly dominate under all scenarios..then yes nerfs are required to bring it in place but when you deal with specs only good under certain circumstances and then nerf them...you create UP classes not balance.

    You are familiar with elementalist are you not? That's what happen when devs listen to a forum outcry rather than objective measuring .......you delete classes from the game

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Apolo.5942 said:
    More bunkers is a very good thing, this game was never meant to be lol, to get you kill with 3 skills.

    The meta needed to slow the kitten down since HoT.

    Only when bunkers deal close to no dmg like it's for ele and for ele only, the ones making nerf threads atm are a bunch of necros, condi revs, holos, wars...professions that get to be bunker (thx to their innate defense) and still deal medium/large dmg...so yeah

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Skotlex.7580 said:

    @Sunshine.5014 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Under that philosophy they should delete core necro and core rev then

    Look at latest patch notes, they are already being addressed.

    @Sunshine.5014 said:
    I don't get why people keep spouting extremes when discussing balance like this. No, ANet are not looking to delete spec. They are looking to fix outliers. They are looking to bring them back in line.

    Saying the nerfs will delete the spec is extremely non productive.

    hyperbole doesn't help in discussing balance, which is probably why most of the forum discussions around the topic need to be taken with a pound of salt. :(

    You cannot have a discussion without hyperbole on a MMO forum.....take for example this @Rickster.8752 guy...a necro main who keep creating nerf thread after nerf thread while conveniently forgetting how stupidly powerful necro is against everything else but the classes he wants to see nerfed...you won't see him making an "ele nerf thread" anytime soon I am sure

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    You cannot have a discussion without hyperbole on a MMO forum.....

    If this is so, than that explains why some people argue that we cannot have a discussion in an MMO forum, period.