ANET balance team should be required to play each class for a day for 2 weeks in pvp. - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

ANET balance team should be required to play each class for a day for 2 weeks in pvp.

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  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

    The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

    Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

    I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

    Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I'd like anet to play thief a lot see how its a really kitten idea to take away stealth and all teleports.

    All people who play thief know that would be a bad idea.

    and thats why thief still has so many teleports he can give you epileptic seizures

    Its sorta like how a big deal losing that second dodge and a lot of the blinks is for mes no? since you guys got low hp.
    Thief class isn't exactly the highest hp.

    it wasnt even 1 dodge that put the mirage in the dirt.
    all defensive CDs got 50% cd increase, condi damage got ripped by 60%+ in some cases.
    and builds that you would fight didnt get those nerfs, warrior has as much evades and mobility as it used to. while mesmer lost its dodges and mobility.
    it had nothing to do with the dodge, we just meme about it cuz its fun.

    This.
    The dodge is the least of mesmer problems, problem is the adding up of nerfs prior to that.
    Several traits, both offensive and defensive were murdered or deleted.
    Damage, both power and condi was gutted.
    Phantasmal rework was a poisoned gift as I've been saying since it was released it cut out a lot of damage and added a lot of setting time to burst.

    It is funny how both extrema (Mesmer mains and Mesmer hater) completely miss the point: The one dodge change is the bad one, all previous nerfs were not the ones completely contradicting the mechanic of Mirage and dumbing it down. They were adjustment balance moves most of them i agree to (talking about the ones directed to the Mirage traitline, not the overnerf of shatters in terms of condi application). Even when Anet would remove all previous nerfs and only do the one dodge change it still would be completely unlogical nonsense and bad. It still would not solve any balance issue only Condimirage has (noobfriendly and passive playstyle) while still dumbing down the mechanic doubled instead higher the skill requirement to play Condimirage, while it still would overnerf and dumb down Powermirage for no reason. And that also is the point why Condimirage, just with another build, is still playable with some success (even though playing just Necro, Ele, Fb, Ranger or Condirev would be a way easier life) while Powermirage is only for masochists while also being dumbed down. The one dodge change did not solve any issue Condimirage had, it only dumbs down the elite mechanic as it dumps down dodge management in general (means would dumb down dodge management on all classes, Mirage only gets double dumbed down because it also contradicts the elite mechanic itself).
    And the biggest nonsense are arguments like "look you still can play Mirage just switch to mistake cover and low skill-friendly traitlines and toxic retargeting skills" and don't care that skillful builds on Mirage are compeltely butchered for the sake of not even solving any issue from Condimirage.

    That not even Mesmer mains get it leaves me open-mouthed!

    Just quote myself for a balance idea to make even Condimriage a higher skill ceiling spec while still balancing the power of it down to the post patch lvl so it will not be op after getting 2 dodges back:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    The problem is, when you now add more endurance reggen to a one dodge only bar it gets even more braindead spammy. Means you will even more force the situation where you just dumbed down the spec while not even solving any issue and make it more and more spammy and more and more dumbed down and passive the more endurance reggen you add.
    They just should give Mirage 2 dodges back and then adjust ambush dmg down to a balanced lvl. Like lower gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself (the clones do not rly do much dmg anyway, maybe reduce the might and vulnerability stacks a little bit) and rework Condi ambushes into something more being about effects and not dmg. Like you can make axe ambush stack a balanced amount of condition-dmg-stats for a short duration to force offensive dodges before goind for an axe 3 shatter burst, staff ambush can stack condition duration stat for a short duration, scepter could get a very little and well animated and with decent casttime added immob (1/4s on Mesmers, 1/8s on clones as duration, or just 1/4 on all skills while Mesmers own ambush has a little bit dmg in addition to be stronger than clone ambushes), that would force the Mesmer into offensive dodges to hit a short immob to prepare and secure a scepter 3 hit for example. Another possibility would be chill for scepter. Scepter ambush in general should be reworked to something with less single hits. Make it a one hit skill. For those changes condi clone ambushes ofc lose most of their condistacks (on scepter clones wouldn't do any dmg aside form stacking the effect). So you would need to dodge offensive to prepare a condi "burst" or a hit of bigger and active condiskills like shatters or weaponskills. These are just examples, there are lot of ways to rework condi ambushes and/ or nerf their dmg to a balanced lvl with giving 2 dodges back while keeping Mirage not op compared to the overall nerfed post patch situation.

    If you only give 2 dodges back to Mirage into the current situation where most stuff is nerfed too, it would probably be too op (at least on Condimirage, probably also on Power). So you ofc need to compensate the more dodges with nerfs at other places. And reworking amsbushes and nerfing ambush dmg where needed (from either Mesmers own ambush or clone ambushes) should be done in terms of higher skill ceiling and less passive playstyle anyway.

    Not talking about the mirage traitline, talking about duel, dom, BF, GS in general, MC (I know we disagree on this), portal and phantasms, don't really care about condi, so I'll leave it for others.

    BF?
    Still doesn't change the fact that the one dodge change is the worst and most unlogical from all nerfs, because it is a dumbed down move not solving any issue on Condimirage just killing active and high skill ceiling builds. Means it is in particular bad for Powermirage. Domi and Duelling are still good traitlines i don't see much of an issue here. I would not call them overnerfed. Only the condi application from shatters (what mostly was in Illusion traitline if i remember right?) can be blamed. They should have nerfed condi clone dmg (normal autoattacks and clone ambushes) instead.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

    The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

    Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

    I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

    Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I'd like anet to play thief a lot see how its a really kitten idea to take away stealth and all teleports.

    All people who play thief know that would be a bad idea.

    and thats why thief still has so many teleports he can give you epileptic seizures

    Its sorta like how a big deal losing that second dodge and a lot of the blinks is for mes no? since you guys got low hp.
    Thief class isn't exactly the highest hp.

    it wasnt even 1 dodge that put the mirage in the dirt.
    all defensive CDs got 50% cd increase, condi damage got ripped by 60%+ in some cases.
    and builds that you would fight didnt get those nerfs, warrior has as much evades and mobility as it used to. while mesmer lost its dodges and mobility.
    it had nothing to do with the dodge, we just meme about it cuz its fun.

    This.
    The dodge is the least of mesmer problems, problem is the adding up of nerfs prior to that.
    Several traits, both offensive and defensive were murdered or deleted.
    Damage, both power and condi was gutted.
    Phantasmal rework was a poisoned gift as I've been saying since it was released it cut out a lot of damage and added a lot of setting time to burst.

    It is funny how both extrema (Mesmer mains and Mesmer hater) completely miss the point: The one dodge change is the bad one, all previous nerfs were not the ones completely contradicting the mechanic of Mirage and dumbing it down. They were adjustment balance moves most of them i agree to (talking about the ones directed to the Mirage traitline, not the overnerf of shatters in terms of condi application). Even when Anet would remove all previous nerfs and only do the one dodge change it still would be completely unlogical nonsense and bad. It still would not solve any balance issue only Condimirage has (noobfriendly and passive playstyle) while still dumbing down the mechanic doubled instead higher the skill requirement to play Condimirage, while it still would overnerf and dumb down Powermirage for no reason. And that also is the point why Condimirage, just with another build, is still playable with some success (even though playing just Necro, Ele, Fb, Ranger or Condirev would be a way easier life) while Powermirage is only for masochists while also being dumbed down. The one dodge change did not solve any issue Condimirage had, it only dumbs down the elite mechanic as it dumps down dodge management in general (means would dumb down dodge management on all classes, Mirage only gets double dumbed down because it also contradicts the elite mechanic itself).
    And the biggest nonsense are arguments like "look you still can play Mirage just switch to mistake cover and low skill-friendly traitlines and toxic retargeting skills" and don't care that skillful builds on Mirage are compeltely butchered for the sake of not even solving any issue from Condimirage.

    That not even Mesmer mains get it leaves me open-mouthed!

    Just quote myself for a balance idea to make even Condimriage a higher skill ceiling spec while still balancing the power of it down to the post patch lvl so it will not be op after getting 2 dodges back:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    The problem is, when you now add more endurance reggen to a one dodge only bar it gets even more braindead spammy. Means you will even more force the situation where you just dumbed down the spec while not even solving any issue and make it more and more spammy and more and more dumbed down and passive the more endurance reggen you add.
    They just should give Mirage 2 dodges back and then adjust ambush dmg down to a balanced lvl. Like lower gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself (the clones do not rly do much dmg anyway, maybe reduce the might and vulnerability stacks a little bit) and rework Condi ambushes into something more being about effects and not dmg. Like you can make axe ambush stack a balanced amount of condition-dmg-stats for a short duration to force offensive dodges before goind for an axe 3 shatter burst, staff ambush can stack condition duration stat for a short duration, scepter could get a very little and well animated and with decent casttime added immob (1/4s on Mesmers, 1/8s on clones as duration, or just 1/4 on all skills while Mesmers own ambush has a little bit dmg in addition to be stronger than clone ambushes), that would force the Mesmer into offensive dodges to hit a short immob to prepare and secure a scepter 3 hit for example. Another possibility would be chill for scepter. Scepter ambush in general should be reworked to something with less single hits. Make it a one hit skill. For those changes condi clone ambushes ofc lose most of their condistacks (on scepter clones wouldn't do any dmg aside form stacking the effect). So you would need to dodge offensive to prepare a condi "burst" or a hit of bigger and active condiskills like shatters or weaponskills. These are just examples, there are lot of ways to rework condi ambushes and/ or nerf their dmg to a balanced lvl with giving 2 dodges back while keeping Mirage not op compared to the overall nerfed post patch situation.

    If you only give 2 dodges back to Mirage into the current situation where most stuff is nerfed too, it would probably be too op (at least on Condimirage, probably also on Power). So you ofc need to compensate the more dodges with nerfs at other places. And reworking amsbushes and nerfing ambush dmg where needed (from either Mesmers own ambush or clone ambushes) should be done in terms of higher skill ceiling and less passive playstyle anyway.

    Not talking about the mirage traitline, talking about duel, dom, BF, GS in general, MC (I know we disagree on this), portal and phantasms, don't really care about condi, so I'll leave it for others.

    BF?
    Still doesn't change the fact that the one dodge change is the worst and most unlogical from all nerfs, because it is a dumbed down move not solving any issue on Condimirage just killing active and high skill ceiling builds. Means it is in particular bad for Powermirage. Domi and Duelling are still good traitlines i don't see much of an issue here. I would not call them overnerfed. Only the condi application from shatters (what mostly was in Illusion traitline if i remember right?) can be blamed. They should have nerfed condi clone dmg (normal autoattacks and clone ambushes) instead.

    Blurred Frenzy.
    Confounding Suggestions was not OP neither difficult to balance and was a huge hit on power mes.
    The new GS trait it's certainly not deserving a GM spot, not with the amount of boon flying around in this game, you'll not achieve the bonus damage ever.
    The trait that took the CS place it's a freaking joke, if not for all the other major adepts traits being awful no one would take this.

    All dueling major master traits are bad, you could argue that Evasive Mirror was too good, but their method of balance was awful. Fencer's is a joke if you compare it with similar traits on other professions.

    The degenerate

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2020

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

    The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

    Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

    I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

    Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I'd like anet to play thief a lot see how its a really kitten idea to take away stealth and all teleports.

    All people who play thief know that would be a bad idea.

    and thats why thief still has so many teleports he can give you epileptic seizures

    Its sorta like how a big deal losing that second dodge and a lot of the blinks is for mes no? since you guys got low hp.
    Thief class isn't exactly the highest hp.

    it wasnt even 1 dodge that put the mirage in the dirt.
    all defensive CDs got 50% cd increase, condi damage got ripped by 60%+ in some cases.
    and builds that you would fight didnt get those nerfs, warrior has as much evades and mobility as it used to. while mesmer lost its dodges and mobility.
    it had nothing to do with the dodge, we just meme about it cuz its fun.

    This.
    The dodge is the least of mesmer problems, problem is the adding up of nerfs prior to that.
    Several traits, both offensive and defensive were murdered or deleted.
    Damage, both power and condi was gutted.
    Phantasmal rework was a poisoned gift as I've been saying since it was released it cut out a lot of damage and added a lot of setting time to burst.

    It is funny how both extrema (Mesmer mains and Mesmer hater) completely miss the point: The one dodge change is the bad one, all previous nerfs were not the ones completely contradicting the mechanic of Mirage and dumbing it down. They were adjustment balance moves most of them i agree to (talking about the ones directed to the Mirage traitline, not the overnerf of shatters in terms of condi application). Even when Anet would remove all previous nerfs and only do the one dodge change it still would be completely unlogical nonsense and bad. It still would not solve any balance issue only Condimirage has (noobfriendly and passive playstyle) while still dumbing down the mechanic doubled instead higher the skill requirement to play Condimirage, while it still would overnerf and dumb down Powermirage for no reason. And that also is the point why Condimirage, just with another build, is still playable with some success (even though playing just Necro, Ele, Fb, Ranger or Condirev would be a way easier life) while Powermirage is only for masochists while also being dumbed down. The one dodge change did not solve any issue Condimirage had, it only dumbs down the elite mechanic as it dumps down dodge management in general (means would dumb down dodge management on all classes, Mirage only gets double dumbed down because it also contradicts the elite mechanic itself).
    And the biggest nonsense are arguments like "look you still can play Mirage just switch to mistake cover and low skill-friendly traitlines and toxic retargeting skills" and don't care that skillful builds on Mirage are compeltely butchered for the sake of not even solving any issue from Condimirage.

    That not even Mesmer mains get it leaves me open-mouthed!

    Just quote myself for a balance idea to make even Condimriage a higher skill ceiling spec while still balancing the power of it down to the post patch lvl so it will not be op after getting 2 dodges back:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    The problem is, when you now add more endurance reggen to a one dodge only bar it gets even more braindead spammy. Means you will even more force the situation where you just dumbed down the spec while not even solving any issue and make it more and more spammy and more and more dumbed down and passive the more endurance reggen you add.
    They just should give Mirage 2 dodges back and then adjust ambush dmg down to a balanced lvl. Like lower gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself (the clones do not rly do much dmg anyway, maybe reduce the might and vulnerability stacks a little bit) and rework Condi ambushes into something more being about effects and not dmg. Like you can make axe ambush stack a balanced amount of condition-dmg-stats for a short duration to force offensive dodges before goind for an axe 3 shatter burst, staff ambush can stack condition duration stat for a short duration, scepter could get a very little and well animated and with decent casttime added immob (1/4s on Mesmers, 1/8s on clones as duration, or just 1/4 on all skills while Mesmers own ambush has a little bit dmg in addition to be stronger than clone ambushes), that would force the Mesmer into offensive dodges to hit a short immob to prepare and secure a scepter 3 hit for example. Another possibility would be chill for scepter. Scepter ambush in general should be reworked to something with less single hits. Make it a one hit skill. For those changes condi clone ambushes ofc lose most of their condistacks (on scepter clones wouldn't do any dmg aside form stacking the effect). So you would need to dodge offensive to prepare a condi "burst" or a hit of bigger and active condiskills like shatters or weaponskills. These are just examples, there are lot of ways to rework condi ambushes and/ or nerf their dmg to a balanced lvl with giving 2 dodges back while keeping Mirage not op compared to the overall nerfed post patch situation.

    If you only give 2 dodges back to Mirage into the current situation where most stuff is nerfed too, it would probably be too op (at least on Condimirage, probably also on Power). So you ofc need to compensate the more dodges with nerfs at other places. And reworking amsbushes and nerfing ambush dmg where needed (from either Mesmers own ambush or clone ambushes) should be done in terms of higher skill ceiling and less passive playstyle anyway.

    Not talking about the mirage traitline, talking about duel, dom, BF, GS in general, MC (I know we disagree on this), portal and phantasms, don't really care about condi, so I'll leave it for others.

    BF?
    Still doesn't change the fact that the one dodge change is the worst and most unlogical from all nerfs, because it is a dumbed down move not solving any issue on Condimirage just killing active and high skill ceiling builds. Means it is in particular bad for Powermirage. Domi and Duelling are still good traitlines i don't see much of an issue here. I would not call them overnerfed. Only the condi application from shatters (what mostly was in Illusion traitline if i remember right?) can be blamed. They should have nerfed condi clone dmg (normal autoattacks and clone ambushes) instead.

    Blurred Frenzy.
    Confounding Suggestions was not OP neither difficult to balance and was a huge hit on power mes.
    The new GS trait it's certainly not deserving a GM spot, not with the amount of boon flying around in this game, you'll not achieve the bonus damage ever.
    The trait that took the CS place it's a freaking joke, if not for all the other major adepts traits being awful no one would take this.

    All dueling major master traits are bad, you could argue that Evasive Mirror was too good, but their method of balance was awful. Fencer's is a joke if you compare it with similar traits on other professions.

    Blurrend Frenzy what else, lol my bad.
    I am not sure about CS, an instant stun isn't unproblematic by itself already. If you then add stealth ability and oneshot potential to it you clearly have a balance issue. Also the new trait is not rly that bad. You more or less get an old mg trait in addition to an old mg trait like PB or MA. The new major grandmaster is kind of useless i agree. On the other side you get it in addition to the removed old mg Imagined Burden what now is a major adept. That is a buff overall. Even more when you use MA or PB in additon to it.

    BF i can argue was an in general good change for all Mesmer specs, it had what, over 2s evade? before that change, and barely could hit the dmg. They turned it from a busted defensive skill with bad offensive uses to a decent defensive skill with good offensive uses. It was overall a good change i would say. Ofc it got more sensitive to retalitation but that is by itself fine because everything should have counters. You also can cast it defensive away from the target to not get hit by retal if i am not mistaken. The problem with retaliation is more that some classes (mostly Guards) have a too high and for that too passive retaliation uptime in general. Means nerf retal uptime on a decent lvl and BF will be fine as it is.

    Blinding Dissipation is still a good trait i would say, means i disagree. ICD on dodge traits are always bad i agree to Evasive Mirror was balanced in a bad way. Fencer is not overwhelming i agree.

    Still nothing of that rly has to do with Mirage and taking those nerfs back would not justify the one dodge change on Mirage at all. Simply because that one dodge change doesn't make sense, no matter how you look at it with brain enabled.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ok, so to you experts of mirage how would you change the traits to not overperform but still do well be active and require the right amount of skill?

    would you keep mirage as mostly condi? or power?

    How for instance would you redo shatters? completely? would it be reworked for how shatters work for the elites and split the changes for shatters for core/Chrono/mirage?

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2020

    @Axl.8924 said:
    Ok, so to you experts of mirage how would you change the traits to not overperform but still do well be active and require the right amount of skill?

    would you keep mirage as mostly condi? or power?

    How for instance would you redo shatters? completely? would it be reworked for how shatters work for the elites and split the changes for shatters for core/Chrono/mirage?

    Lol this was answered several times already, even just before in this thread. Scroll up pls (page 1).

    If you change condi ambushes to something similar to power weapon ambushes it doesn't matter that much anymore if Mirage is played as power or condi (because of the general wrong and op designed condis in GW2 power builds will always be more skillful but that is another story).

    Shatters don't need a rework on Mirage when you just adjust ambushes to balance the spec out, even based on having 2 dodges. What they should do is reducing passive clone dmg (including normal clone autoattacks) and give that dmg back to shatters/ shatter traits.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

    The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

    Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

    I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

    Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I'd like anet to play thief a lot see how its a really kitten idea to take away stealth and all teleports.

    All people who play thief know that would be a bad idea.

    and thats why thief still has so many teleports he can give you epileptic seizures

    Its sorta like how a big deal losing that second dodge and a lot of the blinks is for mes no? since you guys got low hp.
    Thief class isn't exactly the highest hp.

    it wasnt even 1 dodge that put the mirage in the dirt.
    all defensive CDs got 50% cd increase, condi damage got ripped by 60%+ in some cases.
    and builds that you would fight didnt get those nerfs, warrior has as much evades and mobility as it used to. while mesmer lost its dodges and mobility.
    it had nothing to do with the dodge, we just meme about it cuz its fun.

    This.
    The dodge is the least of mesmer problems, problem is the adding up of nerfs prior to that.
    Several traits, both offensive and defensive were murdered or deleted.
    Damage, both power and condi was gutted.
    Phantasmal rework was a poisoned gift as I've been saying since it was released it cut out a lot of damage and added a lot of setting time to burst.

    It is funny how both extrema (Mesmer mains and Mesmer hater) completely miss the point: The one dodge change is the bad one, all previous nerfs were not the ones completely contradicting the mechanic of Mirage and dumbing it down. They were adjustment balance moves most of them i agree to (talking about the ones directed to the Mirage traitline, not the overnerf of shatters in terms of condi application). Even when Anet would remove all previous nerfs and only do the one dodge change it still would be completely unlogical nonsense and bad. It still would not solve any balance issue only Condimirage has (noobfriendly and passive playstyle) while still dumbing down the mechanic doubled instead higher the skill requirement to play Condimirage, while it still would overnerf and dumb down Powermirage for no reason. And that also is the point why Condimirage, just with another build, is still playable with some success (even though playing just Necro, Ele, Fb, Ranger or Condirev would be a way easier life) while Powermirage is only for masochists while also being dumbed down. The one dodge change did not solve any issue Condimirage had, it only dumbs down the elite mechanic as it dumps down dodge management in general (means would dumb down dodge management on all classes, Mirage only gets double dumbed down because it also contradicts the elite mechanic itself).
    And the biggest nonsense are arguments like "look you still can play Mirage just switch to mistake cover and low skill-friendly traitlines and toxic retargeting skills" and don't care that skillful builds on Mirage are compeltely butchered for the sake of not even solving any issue from Condimirage.

    That not even Mesmer mains get it leaves me open-mouthed!

    Just quote myself for a balance idea to make even Condimriage a higher skill ceiling spec while still balancing the power of it down to the post patch lvl so it will not be op after getting 2 dodges back:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    The problem is, when you now add more endurance reggen to a one dodge only bar it gets even more braindead spammy. Means you will even more force the situation where you just dumbed down the spec while not even solving any issue and make it more and more spammy and more and more dumbed down and passive the more endurance reggen you add.
    They just should give Mirage 2 dodges back and then adjust ambush dmg down to a balanced lvl. Like lower gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself (the clones do not rly do much dmg anyway, maybe reduce the might and vulnerability stacks a little bit) and rework Condi ambushes into something more being about effects and not dmg. Like you can make axe ambush stack a balanced amount of condition-dmg-stats for a short duration to force offensive dodges before goind for an axe 3 shatter burst, staff ambush can stack condition duration stat for a short duration, scepter could get a very little and well animated and with decent casttime added immob (1/4s on Mesmers, 1/8s on clones as duration, or just 1/4 on all skills while Mesmers own ambush has a little bit dmg in addition to be stronger than clone ambushes), that would force the Mesmer into offensive dodges to hit a short immob to prepare and secure a scepter 3 hit for example. Another possibility would be chill for scepter. Scepter ambush in general should be reworked to something with less single hits. Make it a one hit skill. For those changes condi clone ambushes ofc lose most of their condistacks (on scepter clones wouldn't do any dmg aside form stacking the effect). So you would need to dodge offensive to prepare a condi "burst" or a hit of bigger and active condiskills like shatters or weaponskills. These are just examples, there are lot of ways to rework condi ambushes and/ or nerf their dmg to a balanced lvl with giving 2 dodges back while keeping Mirage not op compared to the overall nerfed post patch situation.

    If you only give 2 dodges back to Mirage into the current situation where most stuff is nerfed too, it would probably be too op (at least on Condimirage, probably also on Power). So you ofc need to compensate the more dodges with nerfs at other places. And reworking amsbushes and nerfing ambush dmg where needed (from either Mesmers own ambush or clone ambushes) should be done in terms of higher skill ceiling and less passive playstyle anyway.

    Not talking about the mirage traitline, talking about duel, dom, BF, GS in general, MC (I know we disagree on this), portal and phantasms, don't really care about condi, so I'll leave it for others.

    BF?
    Still doesn't change the fact that the one dodge change is the worst and most unlogical from all nerfs, because it is a dumbed down move not solving any issue on Condimirage just killing active and high skill ceiling builds. Means it is in particular bad for Powermirage. Domi and Duelling are still good traitlines i don't see much of an issue here. I would not call them overnerfed. Only the condi application from shatters (what mostly was in Illusion traitline if i remember right?) can be blamed. They should have nerfed condi clone dmg (normal autoattacks and clone ambushes) instead.

    Blurred Frenzy.
    Confounding Suggestions was not OP neither difficult to balance and was a huge hit on power mes.
    The new GS trait it's certainly not deserving a GM spot, not with the amount of boon flying around in this game, you'll not achieve the bonus damage ever.
    The trait that took the CS place it's a freaking joke, if not for all the other major adepts traits being awful no one would take this.

    All dueling major master traits are bad, you could argue that Evasive Mirror was too good, but their method of balance was awful. Fencer's is a joke if you compare it with similar traits on other professions.

    Blurrend Frenzy what else, lol my bad.
    I am not sure about CS, an instant stun isn't unproblematic by itself already. If you then add stealth ability and oneshot potential to it you clearly have a balance issue. Also the new trait is not rly that bad. The new major grandmaster is kind of useless i agree.

    BF i can argue was an in general good change for all Mesmer specs, it had what, over 2s evade? before that change, and barely could hit the dmg. They turned it from a busted defensive skill with bad offensive uses to a decent defensive skill with good offensive uses. It was overall a good change i would say. Ofc it got more sensitive to retalitation but that is by itself fine because everything should have counters. You also can cast it defensive away from the target to not get hit by retal if i am not mistaken. The problem with retaliation is more that some classes (mostly Guards) have a too high and for that too passive retaliation uptime in general. Means nerf retal uptime on a decent lvl and BF will be fine as it is.

    Blinding Dissipation is still a good trait i would say, means i disagree. ICD on dodge traits are always bad i agree to Evasive Mirror was balanced in a bad way. Fencer is not overwhelming i agree.

    Still nothing of that rly has to do with Mirage and taking those nerfs back would not justify the one dodge change on Mirage at all. Simply because that one dodge change doesn't make sense at all, no matter how you look at it with brain enabled.

    I wouldn't call prolematic a stun every 38sec even with stealth. I mean look at basilisk venom, sure it takes a slot but no one uses it.
    In the new trait phantasm damage deals rougly the same damage as an untraited phantasm.

    The problem with BF is that they took the evade time but maintained the number of hits, as you meantioned it will get you killed from retal.
    Now BF it's like the t.ard cousin of Pistol Whip.
    BD affecting one shatter was again a huge nuke, again, on power mes as colateral damage from condi confusion stacking through blinds.

    I mean do I agree with the dodge change on mirage? No, but as I said on some other thread I wouldn't mind if ANerf deleted Mirage altogheter from game and rollback these nerfs.

    Oh also forgot the vigor nerfs, that once more affected power survival more than condi.

    The degenerate

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

    The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

    Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

    I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

    Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I'd like anet to play thief a lot see how its a really kitten idea to take away stealth and all teleports.

    All people who play thief know that would be a bad idea.

    and thats why thief still has so many teleports he can give you epileptic seizures

    Its sorta like how a big deal losing that second dodge and a lot of the blinks is for mes no? since you guys got low hp.
    Thief class isn't exactly the highest hp.

    it wasnt even 1 dodge that put the mirage in the dirt.
    all defensive CDs got 50% cd increase, condi damage got ripped by 60%+ in some cases.
    and builds that you would fight didnt get those nerfs, warrior has as much evades and mobility as it used to. while mesmer lost its dodges and mobility.
    it had nothing to do with the dodge, we just meme about it cuz its fun.

    This.
    The dodge is the least of mesmer problems, problem is the adding up of nerfs prior to that.
    Several traits, both offensive and defensive were murdered or deleted.
    Damage, both power and condi was gutted.
    Phantasmal rework was a poisoned gift as I've been saying since it was released it cut out a lot of damage and added a lot of setting time to burst.

    It is funny how both extrema (Mesmer mains and Mesmer hater) completely miss the point: The one dodge change is the bad one, all previous nerfs were not the ones completely contradicting the mechanic of Mirage and dumbing it down. They were adjustment balance moves most of them i agree to (talking about the ones directed to the Mirage traitline, not the overnerf of shatters in terms of condi application). Even when Anet would remove all previous nerfs and only do the one dodge change it still would be completely unlogical nonsense and bad. It still would not solve any balance issue only Condimirage has (noobfriendly and passive playstyle) while still dumbing down the mechanic doubled instead higher the skill requirement to play Condimirage, while it still would overnerf and dumb down Powermirage for no reason. And that also is the point why Condimirage, just with another build, is still playable with some success (even though playing just Necro, Ele, Fb, Ranger or Condirev would be a way easier life) while Powermirage is only for masochists while also being dumbed down. The one dodge change did not solve any issue Condimirage had, it only dumbs down the elite mechanic as it dumps down dodge management in general (means would dumb down dodge management on all classes, Mirage only gets double dumbed down because it also contradicts the elite mechanic itself).
    And the biggest nonsense are arguments like "look you still can play Mirage just switch to mistake cover and low skill-friendly traitlines and toxic retargeting skills" and don't care that skillful builds on Mirage are compeltely butchered for the sake of not even solving any issue from Condimirage.

    That not even Mesmer mains get it leaves me open-mouthed!

    Just quote myself for a balance idea to make even Condimriage a higher skill ceiling spec while still balancing the power of it down to the post patch lvl so it will not be op after getting 2 dodges back:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    The problem is, when you now add more endurance reggen to a one dodge only bar it gets even more braindead spammy. Means you will even more force the situation where you just dumbed down the spec while not even solving any issue and make it more and more spammy and more and more dumbed down and passive the more endurance reggen you add.
    They just should give Mirage 2 dodges back and then adjust ambush dmg down to a balanced lvl. Like lower gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself (the clones do not rly do much dmg anyway, maybe reduce the might and vulnerability stacks a little bit) and rework Condi ambushes into something more being about effects and not dmg. Like you can make axe ambush stack a balanced amount of condition-dmg-stats for a short duration to force offensive dodges before goind for an axe 3 shatter burst, staff ambush can stack condition duration stat for a short duration, scepter could get a very little and well animated and with decent casttime added immob (1/4s on Mesmers, 1/8s on clones as duration, or just 1/4 on all skills while Mesmers own ambush has a little bit dmg in addition to be stronger than clone ambushes), that would force the Mesmer into offensive dodges to hit a short immob to prepare and secure a scepter 3 hit for example. Another possibility would be chill for scepter. Scepter ambush in general should be reworked to something with less single hits. Make it a one hit skill. For those changes condi clone ambushes ofc lose most of their condistacks (on scepter clones wouldn't do any dmg aside form stacking the effect). So you would need to dodge offensive to prepare a condi "burst" or a hit of bigger and active condiskills like shatters or weaponskills. These are just examples, there are lot of ways to rework condi ambushes and/ or nerf their dmg to a balanced lvl with giving 2 dodges back while keeping Mirage not op compared to the overall nerfed post patch situation.

    If you only give 2 dodges back to Mirage into the current situation where most stuff is nerfed too, it would probably be too op (at least on Condimirage, probably also on Power). So you ofc need to compensate the more dodges with nerfs at other places. And reworking amsbushes and nerfing ambush dmg where needed (from either Mesmers own ambush or clone ambushes) should be done in terms of higher skill ceiling and less passive playstyle anyway.

    Not talking about the mirage traitline, talking about duel, dom, BF, GS in general, MC (I know we disagree on this), portal and phantasms, don't really care about condi, so I'll leave it for others.

    BF?
    Still doesn't change the fact that the one dodge change is the worst and most unlogical from all nerfs, because it is a dumbed down move not solving any issue on Condimirage just killing active and high skill ceiling builds. Means it is in particular bad for Powermirage. Domi and Duelling are still good traitlines i don't see much of an issue here. I would not call them overnerfed. Only the condi application from shatters (what mostly was in Illusion traitline if i remember right?) can be blamed. They should have nerfed condi clone dmg (normal autoattacks and clone ambushes) instead.

    Blurred Frenzy.
    Confounding Suggestions was not OP neither difficult to balance and was a huge hit on power mes.
    The new GS trait it's certainly not deserving a GM spot, not with the amount of boon flying around in this game, you'll not achieve the bonus damage ever.
    The trait that took the CS place it's a freaking joke, if not for all the other major adepts traits being awful no one would take this.

    All dueling major master traits are bad, you could argue that Evasive Mirror was too good, but their method of balance was awful. Fencer's is a joke if you compare it with similar traits on other professions.

    Blurrend Frenzy what else, lol my bad.
    I am not sure about CS, an instant stun isn't unproblematic by itself already. If you then add stealth ability and oneshot potential to it you clearly have a balance issue. Also the new trait is not rly that bad. You more or less get an old mg trait in addition to an old mg trait like PB or MA. The new major grandmaster is kind of useless i agree. On the other side you get it in addition to the removed old mg Imagined Burden what now is a major adept. That is a buff overall. Even more when you use MA or PB in additon to it.

    BF i can argue was an in general good change for all Mesmer specs, it had what, over 2s evade? before that change, and barely could hit the dmg. They turned it from a busted defensive skill with bad offensive uses to a decent defensive skill with good offensive uses. It was overall a good change i would say. Ofc it got more sensitive to retalitation but that is by itself fine because everything should have counters. You also can cast it defensive away from the target to not get hit by retal if i am not mistaken. The problem with retaliation is more that some classes (mostly Guards) have a too high and for that too passive retaliation uptime in general. Means nerf retal uptime on a decent lvl and BF will be fine as it is.

    Blinding Dissipation is still a good trait i would say, means i disagree. ICD on dodge traits are always bad i agree to Evasive Mirror was balanced in a bad way. Fencer is not overwhelming i agree.

    Still nothing of that rly has to do with Mirage and taking those nerfs back would not justify the one dodge change on Mirage at all. Simply because that one dodge change doesn't make sense, no matter how you look at it with brain enabled.

    Reminder that with removal of GS trait mesmer lost CDR trait.
    only GS got reduced cd.
    so gs 2, gs 3 and gs 4 cant get 20% cdr on top of losing perma cripple.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2020

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

    The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

    Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

    I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

    Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I'd like anet to play thief a lot see how its a really kitten idea to take away stealth and all teleports.

    All people who play thief know that would be a bad idea.

    and thats why thief still has so many teleports he can give you epileptic seizures

    Its sorta like how a big deal losing that second dodge and a lot of the blinks is for mes no? since you guys got low hp.
    Thief class isn't exactly the highest hp.

    it wasnt even 1 dodge that put the mirage in the dirt.
    all defensive CDs got 50% cd increase, condi damage got ripped by 60%+ in some cases.
    and builds that you would fight didnt get those nerfs, warrior has as much evades and mobility as it used to. while mesmer lost its dodges and mobility.
    it had nothing to do with the dodge, we just meme about it cuz its fun.

    This.
    The dodge is the least of mesmer problems, problem is the adding up of nerfs prior to that.
    Several traits, both offensive and defensive were murdered or deleted.
    Damage, both power and condi was gutted.
    Phantasmal rework was a poisoned gift as I've been saying since it was released it cut out a lot of damage and added a lot of setting time to burst.

    It is funny how both extrema (Mesmer mains and Mesmer hater) completely miss the point: The one dodge change is the bad one, all previous nerfs were not the ones completely contradicting the mechanic of Mirage and dumbing it down. They were adjustment balance moves most of them i agree to (talking about the ones directed to the Mirage traitline, not the overnerf of shatters in terms of condi application). Even when Anet would remove all previous nerfs and only do the one dodge change it still would be completely unlogical nonsense and bad. It still would not solve any balance issue only Condimirage has (noobfriendly and passive playstyle) while still dumbing down the mechanic doubled instead higher the skill requirement to play Condimirage, while it still would overnerf and dumb down Powermirage for no reason. And that also is the point why Condimirage, just with another build, is still playable with some success (even though playing just Necro, Ele, Fb, Ranger or Condirev would be a way easier life) while Powermirage is only for masochists while also being dumbed down. The one dodge change did not solve any issue Condimirage had, it only dumbs down the elite mechanic as it dumps down dodge management in general (means would dumb down dodge management on all classes, Mirage only gets double dumbed down because it also contradicts the elite mechanic itself).
    And the biggest nonsense are arguments like "look you still can play Mirage just switch to mistake cover and low skill-friendly traitlines and toxic retargeting skills" and don't care that skillful builds on Mirage are compeltely butchered for the sake of not even solving any issue from Condimirage.

    That not even Mesmer mains get it leaves me open-mouthed!

    Just quote myself for a balance idea to make even Condimriage a higher skill ceiling spec while still balancing the power of it down to the post patch lvl so it will not be op after getting 2 dodges back:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    The problem is, when you now add more endurance reggen to a one dodge only bar it gets even more braindead spammy. Means you will even more force the situation where you just dumbed down the spec while not even solving any issue and make it more and more spammy and more and more dumbed down and passive the more endurance reggen you add.
    They just should give Mirage 2 dodges back and then adjust ambush dmg down to a balanced lvl. Like lower gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself (the clones do not rly do much dmg anyway, maybe reduce the might and vulnerability stacks a little bit) and rework Condi ambushes into something more being about effects and not dmg. Like you can make axe ambush stack a balanced amount of condition-dmg-stats for a short duration to force offensive dodges before goind for an axe 3 shatter burst, staff ambush can stack condition duration stat for a short duration, scepter could get a very little and well animated and with decent casttime added immob (1/4s on Mesmers, 1/8s on clones as duration, or just 1/4 on all skills while Mesmers own ambush has a little bit dmg in addition to be stronger than clone ambushes), that would force the Mesmer into offensive dodges to hit a short immob to prepare and secure a scepter 3 hit for example. Another possibility would be chill for scepter. Scepter ambush in general should be reworked to something with less single hits. Make it a one hit skill. For those changes condi clone ambushes ofc lose most of their condistacks (on scepter clones wouldn't do any dmg aside form stacking the effect). So you would need to dodge offensive to prepare a condi "burst" or a hit of bigger and active condiskills like shatters or weaponskills. These are just examples, there are lot of ways to rework condi ambushes and/ or nerf their dmg to a balanced lvl with giving 2 dodges back while keeping Mirage not op compared to the overall nerfed post patch situation.

    If you only give 2 dodges back to Mirage into the current situation where most stuff is nerfed too, it would probably be too op (at least on Condimirage, probably also on Power). So you ofc need to compensate the more dodges with nerfs at other places. And reworking amsbushes and nerfing ambush dmg where needed (from either Mesmers own ambush or clone ambushes) should be done in terms of higher skill ceiling and less passive playstyle anyway.

    Not talking about the mirage traitline, talking about duel, dom, BF, GS in general, MC (I know we disagree on this), portal and phantasms, don't really care about condi, so I'll leave it for others.

    BF?
    Still doesn't change the fact that the one dodge change is the worst and most unlogical from all nerfs, because it is a dumbed down move not solving any issue on Condimirage just killing active and high skill ceiling builds. Means it is in particular bad for Powermirage. Domi and Duelling are still good traitlines i don't see much of an issue here. I would not call them overnerfed. Only the condi application from shatters (what mostly was in Illusion traitline if i remember right?) can be blamed. They should have nerfed condi clone dmg (normal autoattacks and clone ambushes) instead.

    Blurred Frenzy.
    Confounding Suggestions was not OP neither difficult to balance and was a huge hit on power mes.
    The new GS trait it's certainly not deserving a GM spot, not with the amount of boon flying around in this game, you'll not achieve the bonus damage ever.
    The trait that took the CS place it's a freaking joke, if not for all the other major adepts traits being awful no one would take this.

    All dueling major master traits are bad, you could argue that Evasive Mirror was too good, but their method of balance was awful. Fencer's is a joke if you compare it with similar traits on other professions.

    Blurrend Frenzy what else, lol my bad.
    I am not sure about CS, an instant stun isn't unproblematic by itself already. If you then add stealth ability and oneshot potential to it you clearly have a balance issue. Also the new trait is not rly that bad. The new major grandmaster is kind of useless i agree.

    BF i can argue was an in general good change for all Mesmer specs, it had what, over 2s evade? before that change, and barely could hit the dmg. They turned it from a busted defensive skill with bad offensive uses to a decent defensive skill with good offensive uses. It was overall a good change i would say. Ofc it got more sensitive to retalitation but that is by itself fine because everything should have counters. You also can cast it defensive away from the target to not get hit by retal if i am not mistaken. The problem with retaliation is more that some classes (mostly Guards) have a too high and for that too passive retaliation uptime in general. Means nerf retal uptime on a decent lvl and BF will be fine as it is.

    Blinding Dissipation is still a good trait i would say, means i disagree. ICD on dodge traits are always bad i agree to Evasive Mirror was balanced in a bad way. Fencer is not overwhelming i agree.

    Still nothing of that rly has to do with Mirage and taking those nerfs back would not justify the one dodge change on Mirage at all. Simply because that one dodge change doesn't make sense at all, no matter how you look at it with brain enabled.

    I wouldn't call prolematic a stun every 38sec even with stealth. I mean look at basilisk venom, sure it takes a slot but no one uses it.
    In the new trait phantasm damage deals rougly the same damage as an untraited phantasm.

    The problem with BF is that they took the evade time but maintained the number of hits, as you meantioned it will get you killed from retal.
    Now BF it's like the t.ard cousin of Pistol Whip.
    BD affecting one shatter was again a huge nuke, again, on power mes as colateral damage from condi confusion stacking through blinds.

    I mean do I agree with the dodge change on mirage? No, but as I said on some other thread I wouldn't mind if ANerf deleted Mirage altogheter from game and rollback these nerfs.

    Oh also forgot the vigor nerfs, that once more affected power survival more than condi.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

    The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

    Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

    I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

    Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I'd like anet to play thief a lot see how its a really kitten idea to take away stealth and all teleports.

    All people who play thief know that would be a bad idea.

    and thats why thief still has so many teleports he can give you epileptic seizures

    Its sorta like how a big deal losing that second dodge and a lot of the blinks is for mes no? since you guys got low hp.
    Thief class isn't exactly the highest hp.

    it wasnt even 1 dodge that put the mirage in the dirt.
    all defensive CDs got 50% cd increase, condi damage got ripped by 60%+ in some cases.
    and builds that you would fight didnt get those nerfs, warrior has as much evades and mobility as it used to. while mesmer lost its dodges and mobility.
    it had nothing to do with the dodge, we just meme about it cuz its fun.

    This.
    The dodge is the least of mesmer problems, problem is the adding up of nerfs prior to that.
    Several traits, both offensive and defensive were murdered or deleted.
    Damage, both power and condi was gutted.
    Phantasmal rework was a poisoned gift as I've been saying since it was released it cut out a lot of damage and added a lot of setting time to burst.

    It is funny how both extrema (Mesmer mains and Mesmer hater) completely miss the point: The one dodge change is the bad one, all previous nerfs were not the ones completely contradicting the mechanic of Mirage and dumbing it down. They were adjustment balance moves most of them i agree to (talking about the ones directed to the Mirage traitline, not the overnerf of shatters in terms of condi application). Even when Anet would remove all previous nerfs and only do the one dodge change it still would be completely unlogical nonsense and bad. It still would not solve any balance issue only Condimirage has (noobfriendly and passive playstyle) while still dumbing down the mechanic doubled instead higher the skill requirement to play Condimirage, while it still would overnerf and dumb down Powermirage for no reason. And that also is the point why Condimirage, just with another build, is still playable with some success (even though playing just Necro, Ele, Fb, Ranger or Condirev would be a way easier life) while Powermirage is only for masochists while also being dumbed down. The one dodge change did not solve any issue Condimirage had, it only dumbs down the elite mechanic as it dumps down dodge management in general (means would dumb down dodge management on all classes, Mirage only gets double dumbed down because it also contradicts the elite mechanic itself).
    And the biggest nonsense are arguments like "look you still can play Mirage just switch to mistake cover and low skill-friendly traitlines and toxic retargeting skills" and don't care that skillful builds on Mirage are compeltely butchered for the sake of not even solving any issue from Condimirage.

    That not even Mesmer mains get it leaves me open-mouthed!

    Just quote myself for a balance idea to make even Condimriage a higher skill ceiling spec while still balancing the power of it down to the post patch lvl so it will not be op after getting 2 dodges back:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    The problem is, when you now add more endurance reggen to a one dodge only bar it gets even more braindead spammy. Means you will even more force the situation where you just dumbed down the spec while not even solving any issue and make it more and more spammy and more and more dumbed down and passive the more endurance reggen you add.
    They just should give Mirage 2 dodges back and then adjust ambush dmg down to a balanced lvl. Like lower gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself (the clones do not rly do much dmg anyway, maybe reduce the might and vulnerability stacks a little bit) and rework Condi ambushes into something more being about effects and not dmg. Like you can make axe ambush stack a balanced amount of condition-dmg-stats for a short duration to force offensive dodges before goind for an axe 3 shatter burst, staff ambush can stack condition duration stat for a short duration, scepter could get a very little and well animated and with decent casttime added immob (1/4s on Mesmers, 1/8s on clones as duration, or just 1/4 on all skills while Mesmers own ambush has a little bit dmg in addition to be stronger than clone ambushes), that would force the Mesmer into offensive dodges to hit a short immob to prepare and secure a scepter 3 hit for example. Another possibility would be chill for scepter. Scepter ambush in general should be reworked to something with less single hits. Make it a one hit skill. For those changes condi clone ambushes ofc lose most of their condistacks (on scepter clones wouldn't do any dmg aside form stacking the effect). So you would need to dodge offensive to prepare a condi "burst" or a hit of bigger and active condiskills like shatters or weaponskills. These are just examples, there are lot of ways to rework condi ambushes and/ or nerf their dmg to a balanced lvl with giving 2 dodges back while keeping Mirage not op compared to the overall nerfed post patch situation.

    If you only give 2 dodges back to Mirage into the current situation where most stuff is nerfed too, it would probably be too op (at least on Condimirage, probably also on Power). So you ofc need to compensate the more dodges with nerfs at other places. And reworking amsbushes and nerfing ambush dmg where needed (from either Mesmers own ambush or clone ambushes) should be done in terms of higher skill ceiling and less passive playstyle anyway.

    Not talking about the mirage traitline, talking about duel, dom, BF, GS in general, MC (I know we disagree on this), portal and phantasms, don't really care about condi, so I'll leave it for others.

    BF?
    Still doesn't change the fact that the one dodge change is the worst and most unlogical from all nerfs, because it is a dumbed down move not solving any issue on Condimirage just killing active and high skill ceiling builds. Means it is in particular bad for Powermirage. Domi and Duelling are still good traitlines i don't see much of an issue here. I would not call them overnerfed. Only the condi application from shatters (what mostly was in Illusion traitline if i remember right?) can be blamed. They should have nerfed condi clone dmg (normal autoattacks and clone ambushes) instead.

    Blurred Frenzy.
    Confounding Suggestions was not OP neither difficult to balance and was a huge hit on power mes.
    The new GS trait it's certainly not deserving a GM spot, not with the amount of boon flying around in this game, you'll not achieve the bonus damage ever.
    The trait that took the CS place it's a freaking joke, if not for all the other major adepts traits being awful no one would take this.

    All dueling major master traits are bad, you could argue that Evasive Mirror was too good, but their method of balance was awful. Fencer's is a joke if you compare it with similar traits on other professions.

    Blurrend Frenzy what else, lol my bad.
    I am not sure about CS, an instant stun isn't unproblematic by itself already. If you then add stealth ability and oneshot potential to it you clearly have a balance issue. Also the new trait is not rly that bad. The new major grandmaster is kind of useless i agree.

    BF i can argue was an in general good change for all Mesmer specs, it had what, over 2s evade? before that change, and barely could hit the dmg. They turned it from a busted defensive skill with bad offensive uses to a decent defensive skill with good offensive uses. It was overall a good change i would say. Ofc it got more sensitive to retalitation but that is by itself fine because everything should have counters. You also can cast it defensive away from the target to not get hit by retal if i am not mistaken. The problem with retaliation is more that some classes (mostly Guards) have a too high and for that too passive retaliation uptime in general. Means nerf retal uptime on a decent lvl and BF will be fine as it is.

    Blinding Dissipation is still a good trait i would say, means i disagree. ICD on dodge traits are always bad i agree to Evasive Mirror was balanced in a bad way. Fencer is not overwhelming i agree.

    Still nothing of that rly has to do with Mirage and taking those nerfs back would not justify the one dodge change on Mirage at all. Simply because that one dodge change doesn't make sense at all, no matter how you look at it with brain enabled.

    I wouldn't call prolematic a stun every 38sec even with stealth. I mean look at basilisk venom, sure it takes a slot but no one uses it.
    In the new trait phantasm damage deals rougly the same damage as an untraited phantasm.

    The problem with BF is that they took the evade time but maintained the number of hits, as you meantioned it will get you killed from retal.
    Now BF it's like the t.ard cousin of Pistol Whip.
    BD affecting one shatter was again a huge nuke, again, on power mes as colateral damage from condi confusion stacking through blinds.

    I mean do I agree with the dodge change on mirage? No, but as I said on some other thread I wouldn't mind if ANerf deleted Mirage altogheter from game and rollback these nerfs.

    Oh also forgot the vigor nerfs, that once more affected power survival more than condi.

    BasiV on Thief has double cast time (only one when used with steal) and it gets a buff icon so you can see the next attack will cc. That is comparing apples with oranges, even though a Thief can cover the casttime and the buff icon with stealth but the f3 stun was instant by itself without any need to cover it. Mesmer uses the stealth to cover gs2 not to cover f3. An instant stun (instant by itself without using an instant skill like steal to apply it) is a bad balance design per se. Just as i said to old CI trait: Lock down cc shouldn't be instant, even less when it is ranged.

    True, the vigor nerf in duelling was not the best decision, if they wanted to hit Condimirage they should have nerfed vigor uptime in Chaos in addition to the vigor in Mirageline. Chaosline was (in parts still is) totally overperforming anyway in my opinion and when they are not willing to rework the passive facetank sustain nature of Chaos than at least it should not give active dodge sustain in addition. It is just too much of everything.

    BD affecting only one shatter was a good balance move increased skill ceiling on Powermesmer too by making it less braindead spammable on skills you mostly use for different purposes anyway (and gave the blind on most shatters a pretty passive nature even).

    As said that BF is sensitive to retal is not the problem, just make classes not having insane high and mostly passive and non reactive retal uptime and it will be fine. You can stow it when your target pops retal to counter it, you can cast it without a target in the other direction to not hit into retal and avoid most of the retal that way etc.

    That you don't mind Mirage being deleted because you don't play it or don't like it, is up to you but that should not be the pov we talk about balance from. Balance discussions should be as much unbiased as possible from own preferences and the own classes or builds on classes you play yourself. Otherwise i would not need to fight for Powermirage/ Powermesmers because i don't play that myself. Always have in mind that a skillful balance instead dumbing down moves deleting skill ceiling always also help you as a player to have more fun in the game, the latest when you have to fight vs that stuff. Means a catch-all view on all classes and not only on what you like to play yourself is much better.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

    The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

    Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

    I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

    Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I'd like anet to play thief a lot see how its a really kitten idea to take away stealth and all teleports.

    All people who play thief know that would be a bad idea.

    and thats why thief still has so many teleports he can give you epileptic seizures

    Its sorta like how a big deal losing that second dodge and a lot of the blinks is for mes no? since you guys got low hp.
    Thief class isn't exactly the highest hp.

    it wasnt even 1 dodge that put the mirage in the dirt.
    all defensive CDs got 50% cd increase, condi damage got ripped by 60%+ in some cases.
    and builds that you would fight didnt get those nerfs, warrior has as much evades and mobility as it used to. while mesmer lost its dodges and mobility.
    it had nothing to do with the dodge, we just meme about it cuz its fun.

    This.
    The dodge is the least of mesmer problems, problem is the adding up of nerfs prior to that.
    Several traits, both offensive and defensive were murdered or deleted.
    Damage, both power and condi was gutted.
    Phantasmal rework was a poisoned gift as I've been saying since it was released it cut out a lot of damage and added a lot of setting time to burst.

    It is funny how both extrema (Mesmer mains and Mesmer hater) completely miss the point: The one dodge change is the bad one, all previous nerfs were not the ones completely contradicting the mechanic of Mirage and dumbing it down. They were adjustment balance moves most of them i agree to (talking about the ones directed to the Mirage traitline, not the overnerf of shatters in terms of condi application). Even when Anet would remove all previous nerfs and only do the one dodge change it still would be completely unlogical nonsense and bad. It still would not solve any balance issue only Condimirage has (noobfriendly and passive playstyle) while still dumbing down the mechanic doubled instead higher the skill requirement to play Condimirage, while it still would overnerf and dumb down Powermirage for no reason. And that also is the point why Condimirage, just with another build, is still playable with some success (even though playing just Necro, Ele, Fb, Ranger or Condirev would be a way easier life) while Powermirage is only for masochists while also being dumbed down. The one dodge change did not solve any issue Condimirage had, it only dumbs down the elite mechanic as it dumps down dodge management in general (means would dumb down dodge management on all classes, Mirage only gets double dumbed down because it also contradicts the elite mechanic itself).
    And the biggest nonsense are arguments like "look you still can play Mirage just switch to mistake cover and low skill-friendly traitlines and toxic retargeting skills" and don't care that skillful builds on Mirage are compeltely butchered for the sake of not even solving any issue from Condimirage.

    That not even Mesmer mains get it leaves me open-mouthed!

    Just quote myself for a balance idea to make even Condimriage a higher skill ceiling spec while still balancing the power of it down to the post patch lvl so it will not be op after getting 2 dodges back:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    The problem is, when you now add more endurance reggen to a one dodge only bar it gets even more braindead spammy. Means you will even more force the situation where you just dumbed down the spec while not even solving any issue and make it more and more spammy and more and more dumbed down and passive the more endurance reggen you add.
    They just should give Mirage 2 dodges back and then adjust ambush dmg down to a balanced lvl. Like lower gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself (the clones do not rly do much dmg anyway, maybe reduce the might and vulnerability stacks a little bit) and rework Condi ambushes into something more being about effects and not dmg. Like you can make axe ambush stack a balanced amount of condition-dmg-stats for a short duration to force offensive dodges before goind for an axe 3 shatter burst, staff ambush can stack condition duration stat for a short duration, scepter could get a very little and well animated and with decent casttime added immob (1/4s on Mesmers, 1/8s on clones as duration, or just 1/4 on all skills while Mesmers own ambush has a little bit dmg in addition to be stronger than clone ambushes), that would force the Mesmer into offensive dodges to hit a short immob to prepare and secure a scepter 3 hit for example. Another possibility would be chill for scepter. Scepter ambush in general should be reworked to something with less single hits. Make it a one hit skill. For those changes condi clone ambushes ofc lose most of their condistacks (on scepter clones wouldn't do any dmg aside form stacking the effect). So you would need to dodge offensive to prepare a condi "burst" or a hit of bigger and active condiskills like shatters or weaponskills. These are just examples, there are lot of ways to rework condi ambushes and/ or nerf their dmg to a balanced lvl with giving 2 dodges back while keeping Mirage not op compared to the overall nerfed post patch situation.

    If you only give 2 dodges back to Mirage into the current situation where most stuff is nerfed too, it would probably be too op (at least on Condimirage, probably also on Power). So you ofc need to compensate the more dodges with nerfs at other places. And reworking amsbushes and nerfing ambush dmg where needed (from either Mesmers own ambush or clone ambushes) should be done in terms of higher skill ceiling and less passive playstyle anyway.

    Not talking about the mirage traitline, talking about duel, dom, BF, GS in general, MC (I know we disagree on this), portal and phantasms, don't really care about condi, so I'll leave it for others.

    BF?
    Still doesn't change the fact that the one dodge change is the worst and most unlogical from all nerfs, because it is a dumbed down move not solving any issue on Condimirage just killing active and high skill ceiling builds. Means it is in particular bad for Powermirage. Domi and Duelling are still good traitlines i don't see much of an issue here. I would not call them overnerfed. Only the condi application from shatters (what mostly was in Illusion traitline if i remember right?) can be blamed. They should have nerfed condi clone dmg (normal autoattacks and clone ambushes) instead.

    Blurred Frenzy.
    Confounding Suggestions was not OP neither difficult to balance and was a huge hit on power mes.
    The new GS trait it's certainly not deserving a GM spot, not with the amount of boon flying around in this game, you'll not achieve the bonus damage ever.
    The trait that took the CS place it's a freaking joke, if not for all the other major adepts traits being awful no one would take this.

    All dueling major master traits are bad, you could argue that Evasive Mirror was too good, but their method of balance was awful. Fencer's is a joke if you compare it with similar traits on other professions.

    Blurrend Frenzy what else, lol my bad.
    I am not sure about CS, an instant stun isn't unproblematic by itself already. If you then add stealth ability and oneshot potential to it you clearly have a balance issue. Also the new trait is not rly that bad. You more or less get an old mg trait in addition to an old mg trait like PB or MA. The new major grandmaster is kind of useless i agree. On the other side you get it in addition to the removed old mg Imagined Burden what now is a major adept. That is a buff overall. Even more when you use MA or PB in additon to it.

    BF i can argue was an in general good change for all Mesmer specs, it had what, over 2s evade? before that change, and barely could hit the dmg. They turned it from a busted defensive skill with bad offensive uses to a decent defensive skill with good offensive uses. It was overall a good change i would say. Ofc it got more sensitive to retalitation but that is by itself fine because everything should have counters. You also can cast it defensive away from the target to not get hit by retal if i am not mistaken. The problem with retaliation is more that some classes (mostly Guards) have a too high and for that too passive retaliation uptime in general. Means nerf retal uptime on a decent lvl and BF will be fine as it is.

    Blinding Dissipation is still a good trait i would say, means i disagree. ICD on dodge traits are always bad i agree to Evasive Mirror was balanced in a bad way. Fencer is not overwhelming i agree.

    Still nothing of that rly has to do with Mirage and taking those nerfs back would not justify the one dodge change on Mirage at all. Simply because that one dodge change doesn't make sense, no matter how you look at it with brain enabled.

    Reminder that with removal of GS trait mesmer lost CDR trait.
    only GS got reduced cd.
    so gs 2, gs 3 and gs 4 cant get 20% cdr on top of losing perma cripple.

    Yes but for that you can trait into it and get another mg trait in addition what is overall still a buff. Some skills got cripple on the weaponskill as compensation and gs4 got reduced cd on the weaponsskill itself if i remember right. All in all a buff (at least when used with PB or MA in addition).

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

    The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

    Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

    I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

    Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I'd like anet to play thief a lot see how its a really kitten idea to take away stealth and all teleports.

    All people who play thief know that would be a bad idea.

    and thats why thief still has so many teleports he can give you epileptic seizures

    Its sorta like how a big deal losing that second dodge and a lot of the blinks is for mes no? since you guys got low hp.
    Thief class isn't exactly the highest hp.

    it wasnt even 1 dodge that put the mirage in the dirt.
    all defensive CDs got 50% cd increase, condi damage got ripped by 60%+ in some cases.
    and builds that you would fight didnt get those nerfs, warrior has as much evades and mobility as it used to. while mesmer lost its dodges and mobility.
    it had nothing to do with the dodge, we just meme about it cuz its fun.

    This.
    The dodge is the least of mesmer problems, problem is the adding up of nerfs prior to that.
    Several traits, both offensive and defensive were murdered or deleted.
    Damage, both power and condi was gutted.
    Phantasmal rework was a poisoned gift as I've been saying since it was released it cut out a lot of damage and added a lot of setting time to burst.

    It is funny how both extrema (Mesmer mains and Mesmer hater) completely miss the point: The one dodge change is the bad one, all previous nerfs were not the ones completely contradicting the mechanic of Mirage and dumbing it down. They were adjustment balance moves most of them i agree to (talking about the ones directed to the Mirage traitline, not the overnerf of shatters in terms of condi application). Even when Anet would remove all previous nerfs and only do the one dodge change it still would be completely unlogical nonsense and bad. It still would not solve any balance issue only Condimirage has (noobfriendly and passive playstyle) while still dumbing down the mechanic doubled instead higher the skill requirement to play Condimirage, while it still would overnerf and dumb down Powermirage for no reason. And that also is the point why Condimirage, just with another build, is still playable with some success (even though playing just Necro, Ele, Fb, Ranger or Condirev would be a way easier life) while Powermirage is only for masochists while also being dumbed down. The one dodge change did not solve any issue Condimirage had, it only dumbs down the elite mechanic as it dumps down dodge management in general (means would dumb down dodge management on all classes, Mirage only gets double dumbed down because it also contradicts the elite mechanic itself).
    And the biggest nonsense are arguments like "look you still can play Mirage just switch to mistake cover and low skill-friendly traitlines and toxic retargeting skills" and don't care that skillful builds on Mirage are compeltely butchered for the sake of not even solving any issue from Condimirage.

    That not even Mesmer mains get it leaves me open-mouthed!

    Just quote myself for a balance idea to make even Condimriage a higher skill ceiling spec while still balancing the power of it down to the post patch lvl so it will not be op after getting 2 dodges back:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    The problem is, when you now add more endurance reggen to a one dodge only bar it gets even more braindead spammy. Means you will even more force the situation where you just dumbed down the spec while not even solving any issue and make it more and more spammy and more and more dumbed down and passive the more endurance reggen you add.
    They just should give Mirage 2 dodges back and then adjust ambush dmg down to a balanced lvl. Like lower gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself (the clones do not rly do much dmg anyway, maybe reduce the might and vulnerability stacks a little bit) and rework Condi ambushes into something more being about effects and not dmg. Like you can make axe ambush stack a balanced amount of condition-dmg-stats for a short duration to force offensive dodges before goind for an axe 3 shatter burst, staff ambush can stack condition duration stat for a short duration, scepter could get a very little and well animated and with decent casttime added immob (1/4s on Mesmers, 1/8s on clones as duration, or just 1/4 on all skills while Mesmers own ambush has a little bit dmg in addition to be stronger than clone ambushes), that would force the Mesmer into offensive dodges to hit a short immob to prepare and secure a scepter 3 hit for example. Another possibility would be chill for scepter. Scepter ambush in general should be reworked to something with less single hits. Make it a one hit skill. For those changes condi clone ambushes ofc lose most of their condistacks (on scepter clones wouldn't do any dmg aside form stacking the effect). So you would need to dodge offensive to prepare a condi "burst" or a hit of bigger and active condiskills like shatters or weaponskills. These are just examples, there are lot of ways to rework condi ambushes and/ or nerf their dmg to a balanced lvl with giving 2 dodges back while keeping Mirage not op compared to the overall nerfed post patch situation.

    If you only give 2 dodges back to Mirage into the current situation where most stuff is nerfed too, it would probably be too op (at least on Condimirage, probably also on Power). So you ofc need to compensate the more dodges with nerfs at other places. And reworking amsbushes and nerfing ambush dmg where needed (from either Mesmers own ambush or clone ambushes) should be done in terms of higher skill ceiling and less passive playstyle anyway.

    Not talking about the mirage traitline, talking about duel, dom, BF, GS in general, MC (I know we disagree on this), portal and phantasms, don't really care about condi, so I'll leave it for others.

    BF?
    Still doesn't change the fact that the one dodge change is the worst and most unlogical from all nerfs, because it is a dumbed down move not solving any issue on Condimirage just killing active and high skill ceiling builds. Means it is in particular bad for Powermirage. Domi and Duelling are still good traitlines i don't see much of an issue here. I would not call them overnerfed. Only the condi application from shatters (what mostly was in Illusion traitline if i remember right?) can be blamed. They should have nerfed condi clone dmg (normal autoattacks and clone ambushes) instead.

    Blurred Frenzy.
    Confounding Suggestions was not OP neither difficult to balance and was a huge hit on power mes.
    The new GS trait it's certainly not deserving a GM spot, not with the amount of boon flying around in this game, you'll not achieve the bonus damage ever.
    The trait that took the CS place it's a freaking joke, if not for all the other major adepts traits being awful no one would take this.

    All dueling major master traits are bad, you could argue that Evasive Mirror was too good, but their method of balance was awful. Fencer's is a joke if you compare it with similar traits on other professions.

    Blurrend Frenzy what else, lol my bad.
    I am not sure about CS, an instant stun isn't unproblematic by itself already. If you then add stealth ability and oneshot potential to it you clearly have a balance issue. Also the new trait is not rly that bad. You more or less get an old mg trait in addition to an old mg trait like PB or MA. The new major grandmaster is kind of useless i agree. On the other side you get it in addition to the removed old mg Imagined Burden what now is a major adept. That is a buff overall. Even more when you use MA or PB in additon to it.

    BF i can argue was an in general good change for all Mesmer specs, it had what, over 2s evade? before that change, and barely could hit the dmg. They turned it from a busted defensive skill with bad offensive uses to a decent defensive skill with good offensive uses. It was overall a good change i would say. Ofc it got more sensitive to retalitation but that is by itself fine because everything should have counters. You also can cast it defensive away from the target to not get hit by retal if i am not mistaken. The problem with retaliation is more that some classes (mostly Guards) have a too high and for that too passive retaliation uptime in general. Means nerf retal uptime on a decent lvl and BF will be fine as it is.

    Blinding Dissipation is still a good trait i would say, means i disagree. ICD on dodge traits are always bad i agree to Evasive Mirror was balanced in a bad way. Fencer is not overwhelming i agree.

    Still nothing of that rly has to do with Mirage and taking those nerfs back would not justify the one dodge change on Mirage at all. Simply because that one dodge change doesn't make sense, no matter how you look at it with brain enabled.

    Reminder that with removal of GS trait mesmer lost CDR trait.
    only GS got reduced cd.
    so gs 2, gs 3 and gs 4 cant get 20% cdr on top of losing perma cripple.

    Yes but for that you can trait into it and get another mg trait in addition what is overall still a buff. Some skills got cripple on the weaposnskill in addition and gs4 got reduced cd on the weaponsskillitslef if i remember right. All in all a buff (at least whn used with PB or MA in addition).

    only gs5 got reduced cd.
    meaning that you CANT even if you tried do any sustained damage.
    with the old trait due to perma cripple ( so perma uptime of 5% dmg sigil ) and reduced CD on gs4,3 and 2 you could kind of make it work.
    If they fix PB and daze mantra it would be a step in the right direction

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

    The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

    Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

    I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

    Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I'd like anet to play thief a lot see how its a really kitten idea to take away stealth and all teleports.

    All people who play thief know that would be a bad idea.

    and thats why thief still has so many teleports he can give you epileptic seizures

    Its sorta like how a big deal losing that second dodge and a lot of the blinks is for mes no? since you guys got low hp.
    Thief class isn't exactly the highest hp.

    it wasnt even 1 dodge that put the mirage in the dirt.
    all defensive CDs got 50% cd increase, condi damage got ripped by 60%+ in some cases.
    and builds that you would fight didnt get those nerfs, warrior has as much evades and mobility as it used to. while mesmer lost its dodges and mobility.
    it had nothing to do with the dodge, we just meme about it cuz its fun.

    This.
    The dodge is the least of mesmer problems, problem is the adding up of nerfs prior to that.
    Several traits, both offensive and defensive were murdered or deleted.
    Damage, both power and condi was gutted.
    Phantasmal rework was a poisoned gift as I've been saying since it was released it cut out a lot of damage and added a lot of setting time to burst.

    It is funny how both extrema (Mesmer mains and Mesmer hater) completely miss the point: The one dodge change is the bad one, all previous nerfs were not the ones completely contradicting the mechanic of Mirage and dumbing it down. They were adjustment balance moves most of them i agree to (talking about the ones directed to the Mirage traitline, not the overnerf of shatters in terms of condi application). Even when Anet would remove all previous nerfs and only do the one dodge change it still would be completely unlogical nonsense and bad. It still would not solve any balance issue only Condimirage has (noobfriendly and passive playstyle) while still dumbing down the mechanic doubled instead higher the skill requirement to play Condimirage, while it still would overnerf and dumb down Powermirage for no reason. And that also is the point why Condimirage, just with another build, is still playable with some success (even though playing just Necro, Ele, Fb, Ranger or Condirev would be a way easier life) while Powermirage is only for masochists while also being dumbed down. The one dodge change did not solve any issue Condimirage had, it only dumbs down the elite mechanic as it dumps down dodge management in general (means would dumb down dodge management on all classes, Mirage only gets double dumbed down because it also contradicts the elite mechanic itself).
    And the biggest nonsense are arguments like "look you still can play Mirage just switch to mistake cover and low skill-friendly traitlines and toxic retargeting skills" and don't care that skillful builds on Mirage are compeltely butchered for the sake of not even solving any issue from Condimirage.

    That not even Mesmer mains get it leaves me open-mouthed!

    Just quote myself for a balance idea to make even Condimriage a higher skill ceiling spec while still balancing the power of it down to the post patch lvl so it will not be op after getting 2 dodges back:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    The problem is, when you now add more endurance reggen to a one dodge only bar it gets even more braindead spammy. Means you will even more force the situation where you just dumbed down the spec while not even solving any issue and make it more and more spammy and more and more dumbed down and passive the more endurance reggen you add.
    They just should give Mirage 2 dodges back and then adjust ambush dmg down to a balanced lvl. Like lower gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself (the clones do not rly do much dmg anyway, maybe reduce the might and vulnerability stacks a little bit) and rework Condi ambushes into something more being about effects and not dmg. Like you can make axe ambush stack a balanced amount of condition-dmg-stats for a short duration to force offensive dodges before goind for an axe 3 shatter burst, staff ambush can stack condition duration stat for a short duration, scepter could get a very little and well animated and with decent casttime added immob (1/4s on Mesmers, 1/8s on clones as duration, or just 1/4 on all skills while Mesmers own ambush has a little bit dmg in addition to be stronger than clone ambushes), that would force the Mesmer into offensive dodges to hit a short immob to prepare and secure a scepter 3 hit for example. Another possibility would be chill for scepter. Scepter ambush in general should be reworked to something with less single hits. Make it a one hit skill. For those changes condi clone ambushes ofc lose most of their condistacks (on scepter clones wouldn't do any dmg aside form stacking the effect). So you would need to dodge offensive to prepare a condi "burst" or a hit of bigger and active condiskills like shatters or weaponskills. These are just examples, there are lot of ways to rework condi ambushes and/ or nerf their dmg to a balanced lvl with giving 2 dodges back while keeping Mirage not op compared to the overall nerfed post patch situation.

    If you only give 2 dodges back to Mirage into the current situation where most stuff is nerfed too, it would probably be too op (at least on Condimirage, probably also on Power). So you ofc need to compensate the more dodges with nerfs at other places. And reworking amsbushes and nerfing ambush dmg where needed (from either Mesmers own ambush or clone ambushes) should be done in terms of higher skill ceiling and less passive playstyle anyway.

    Not talking about the mirage traitline, talking about duel, dom, BF, GS in general, MC (I know we disagree on this), portal and phantasms, don't really care about condi, so I'll leave it for others.

    BF?
    Still doesn't change the fact that the one dodge change is the worst and most unlogical from all nerfs, because it is a dumbed down move not solving any issue on Condimirage just killing active and high skill ceiling builds. Means it is in particular bad for Powermirage. Domi and Duelling are still good traitlines i don't see much of an issue here. I would not call them overnerfed. Only the condi application from shatters (what mostly was in Illusion traitline if i remember right?) can be blamed. They should have nerfed condi clone dmg (normal autoattacks and clone ambushes) instead.

    Blurred Frenzy.
    Confounding Suggestions was not OP neither difficult to balance and was a huge hit on power mes.
    The new GS trait it's certainly not deserving a GM spot, not with the amount of boon flying around in this game, you'll not achieve the bonus damage ever.
    The trait that took the CS place it's a freaking joke, if not for all the other major adepts traits being awful no one would take this.

    All dueling major master traits are bad, you could argue that Evasive Mirror was too good, but their method of balance was awful. Fencer's is a joke if you compare it with similar traits on other professions.

    Blurrend Frenzy what else, lol my bad.
    I am not sure about CS, an instant stun isn't unproblematic by itself already. If you then add stealth ability and oneshot potential to it you clearly have a balance issue. Also the new trait is not rly that bad. You more or less get an old mg trait in addition to an old mg trait like PB or MA. The new major grandmaster is kind of useless i agree. On the other side you get it in addition to the removed old mg Imagined Burden what now is a major adept. That is a buff overall. Even more when you use MA or PB in additon to it.

    BF i can argue was an in general good change for all Mesmer specs, it had what, over 2s evade? before that change, and barely could hit the dmg. They turned it from a busted defensive skill with bad offensive uses to a decent defensive skill with good offensive uses. It was overall a good change i would say. Ofc it got more sensitive to retalitation but that is by itself fine because everything should have counters. You also can cast it defensive away from the target to not get hit by retal if i am not mistaken. The problem with retaliation is more that some classes (mostly Guards) have a too high and for that too passive retaliation uptime in general. Means nerf retal uptime on a decent lvl and BF will be fine as it is.

    Blinding Dissipation is still a good trait i would say, means i disagree. ICD on dodge traits are always bad i agree to Evasive Mirror was balanced in a bad way. Fencer is not overwhelming i agree.

    Still nothing of that rly has to do with Mirage and taking those nerfs back would not justify the one dodge change on Mirage at all. Simply because that one dodge change doesn't make sense, no matter how you look at it with brain enabled.

    Reminder that with removal of GS trait mesmer lost CDR trait.
    only GS got reduced cd.
    so gs 2, gs 3 and gs 4 cant get 20% cdr on top of losing perma cripple.

    Yes but for that you can trait into it and get another mg trait in addition what is overall still a buff. Some skills got cripple on the weaposnskill in addition and gs4 got reduced cd on the weaponsskillitslef if i remember right. All in all a buff (at least whn used with PB or MA in addition).

    only gs5 got reduced cd.

    From the patch notes:
    Mind Stab: Cooldown reduced from 12 seconds to 10 seconds. This skill no longer removes boons, but instead inflicts cripple for 5 seconds.
    Phantasmal Berserker: Cooldown reduced from 15 seconds to 12 seconds. This skill no longer cripples foes. Instead, the projectile now removes 2 boons. The projectile no longer boomerangs.

    meaning that you CANT even if you tried do any sustained damage.
    with the old trait due to perma cripple ( so perma uptime of 5% dmg sigil ) and reduced CD on gs4,3 and 2 you could kind of make it work.
    If they fix PB and daze mantra it would be a step in the right direction

    Fixing bugs are ofc always needed, like that they do not unbug PB is another story and doesn't rly have to do with balance questions. The face your target requirement for daze mantra is unncessary and bad, it should be removed, it contradicts the nature of instant skills and for that makes them very clunky and kind of usless in their defensive nature in lot of situations. MoP should also not have it either but for that just do really zero direct dmg. I still think it would be better to turn MoP into a boonremove mantra instead might/vuln self stacks. And remove face the target requirement from them totally.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2020

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

    The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

    Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

    I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

    Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I'd like anet to play thief a lot see how its a really kitten idea to take away stealth and all teleports.

    All people who play thief know that would be a bad idea.

    and thats why thief still has so many teleports he can give you epileptic seizures

    Its sorta like how a big deal losing that second dodge and a lot of the blinks is for mes no? since you guys got low hp.
    Thief class isn't exactly the highest hp.

    it wasnt even 1 dodge that put the mirage in the dirt.
    all defensive CDs got 50% cd increase, condi damage got ripped by 60%+ in some cases.
    and builds that you would fight didnt get those nerfs, warrior has as much evades and mobility as it used to. while mesmer lost its dodges and mobility.
    it had nothing to do with the dodge, we just meme about it cuz its fun.

    This.
    The dodge is the least of mesmer problems, problem is the adding up of nerfs prior to that.
    Several traits, both offensive and defensive were murdered or deleted.
    Damage, both power and condi was gutted.
    Phantasmal rework was a poisoned gift as I've been saying since it was released it cut out a lot of damage and added a lot of setting time to burst.

    It is funny how both extrema (Mesmer mains and Mesmer hater) completely miss the point: The one dodge change is the bad one, all previous nerfs were not the ones completely contradicting the mechanic of Mirage and dumbing it down. They were adjustment balance moves most of them i agree to (talking about the ones directed to the Mirage traitline, not the overnerf of shatters in terms of condi application). Even when Anet would remove all previous nerfs and only do the one dodge change it still would be completely unlogical nonsense and bad. It still would not solve any balance issue only Condimirage has (noobfriendly and passive playstyle) while still dumbing down the mechanic doubled instead higher the skill requirement to play Condimirage, while it still would overnerf and dumb down Powermirage for no reason. And that also is the point why Condimirage, just with another build, is still playable with some success (even though playing just Necro, Ele, Fb, Ranger or Condirev would be a way easier life) while Powermirage is only for masochists while also being dumbed down. The one dodge change did not solve any issue Condimirage had, it only dumbs down the elite mechanic as it dumps down dodge management in general (means would dumb down dodge management on all classes, Mirage only gets double dumbed down because it also contradicts the elite mechanic itself).
    And the biggest nonsense are arguments like "look you still can play Mirage just switch to mistake cover and low skill-friendly traitlines and toxic retargeting skills" and don't care that skillful builds on Mirage are compeltely butchered for the sake of not even solving any issue from Condimirage.

    That not even Mesmer mains get it leaves me open-mouthed!

    Just quote myself for a balance idea to make even Condimriage a higher skill ceiling spec while still balancing the power of it down to the post patch lvl so it will not be op after getting 2 dodges back:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    The problem is, when you now add more endurance reggen to a one dodge only bar it gets even more braindead spammy. Means you will even more force the situation where you just dumbed down the spec while not even solving any issue and make it more and more spammy and more and more dumbed down and passive the more endurance reggen you add.
    They just should give Mirage 2 dodges back and then adjust ambush dmg down to a balanced lvl. Like lower gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself (the clones do not rly do much dmg anyway, maybe reduce the might and vulnerability stacks a little bit) and rework Condi ambushes into something more being about effects and not dmg. Like you can make axe ambush stack a balanced amount of condition-dmg-stats for a short duration to force offensive dodges before goind for an axe 3 shatter burst, staff ambush can stack condition duration stat for a short duration, scepter could get a very little and well animated and with decent casttime added immob (1/4s on Mesmers, 1/8s on clones as duration, or just 1/4 on all skills while Mesmers own ambush has a little bit dmg in addition to be stronger than clone ambushes), that would force the Mesmer into offensive dodges to hit a short immob to prepare and secure a scepter 3 hit for example. Another possibility would be chill for scepter. Scepter ambush in general should be reworked to something with less single hits. Make it a one hit skill. For those changes condi clone ambushes ofc lose most of their condistacks (on scepter clones wouldn't do any dmg aside form stacking the effect). So you would need to dodge offensive to prepare a condi "burst" or a hit of bigger and active condiskills like shatters or weaponskills. These are just examples, there are lot of ways to rework condi ambushes and/ or nerf their dmg to a balanced lvl with giving 2 dodges back while keeping Mirage not op compared to the overall nerfed post patch situation.

    If you only give 2 dodges back to Mirage into the current situation where most stuff is nerfed too, it would probably be too op (at least on Condimirage, probably also on Power). So you ofc need to compensate the more dodges with nerfs at other places. And reworking amsbushes and nerfing ambush dmg where needed (from either Mesmers own ambush or clone ambushes) should be done in terms of higher skill ceiling and less passive playstyle anyway.

    Not talking about the mirage traitline, talking about duel, dom, BF, GS in general, MC (I know we disagree on this), portal and phantasms, don't really care about condi, so I'll leave it for others.

    BF?
    Still doesn't change the fact that the one dodge change is the worst and most unlogical from all nerfs, because it is a dumbed down move not solving any issue on Condimirage just killing active and high skill ceiling builds. Means it is in particular bad for Powermirage. Domi and Duelling are still good traitlines i don't see much of an issue here. I would not call them overnerfed. Only the condi application from shatters (what mostly was in Illusion traitline if i remember right?) can be blamed. They should have nerfed condi clone dmg (normal autoattacks and clone ambushes) instead.

    Blurred Frenzy.
    Confounding Suggestions was not OP neither difficult to balance and was a huge hit on power mes.
    The new GS trait it's certainly not deserving a GM spot, not with the amount of boon flying around in this game, you'll not achieve the bonus damage ever.
    The trait that took the CS place it's a freaking joke, if not for all the other major adepts traits being awful no one would take this.

    All dueling major master traits are bad, you could argue that Evasive Mirror was too good, but their method of balance was awful. Fencer's is a joke if you compare it with similar traits on other professions.

    Blurrend Frenzy what else, lol my bad.
    I am not sure about CS, an instant stun isn't unproblematic by itself already. If you then add stealth ability and oneshot potential to it you clearly have a balance issue. Also the new trait is not rly that bad. You more or less get an old mg trait in addition to an old mg trait like PB or MA. The new major grandmaster is kind of useless i agree. On the other side you get it in addition to the removed old mg Imagined Burden what now is a major adept. That is a buff overall. Even more when you use MA or PB in additon to it.

    BF i can argue was an in general good change for all Mesmer specs, it had what, over 2s evade? before that change, and barely could hit the dmg. They turned it from a busted defensive skill with bad offensive uses to a decent defensive skill with good offensive uses. It was overall a good change i would say. Ofc it got more sensitive to retalitation but that is by itself fine because everything should have counters. You also can cast it defensive away from the target to not get hit by retal if i am not mistaken. The problem with retaliation is more that some classes (mostly Guards) have a too high and for that too passive retaliation uptime in general. Means nerf retal uptime on a decent lvl and BF will be fine as it is.

    Blinding Dissipation is still a good trait i would say, means i disagree. ICD on dodge traits are always bad i agree to Evasive Mirror was balanced in a bad way. Fencer is not overwhelming i agree.

    Still nothing of that rly has to do with Mirage and taking those nerfs back would not justify the one dodge change on Mirage at all. Simply because that one dodge change doesn't make sense, no matter how you look at it with brain enabled.

    Reminder that with removal of GS trait mesmer lost CDR trait.
    only GS got reduced cd.
    so gs 2, gs 3 and gs 4 cant get 20% cdr on top of losing perma cripple.

    Yes but for that you can trait into it and get another mg trait in addition what is overall still a buff. Some skills got cripple on the weaposnskill in addition and gs4 got reduced cd on the weaponsskillitslef if i remember right. All in all a buff (at least whn used with PB or MA in addition).

    only gs5 got reduced cd.

    From the patch notes:
    Mind Stab: Cooldown reduced from 12 seconds to 10 seconds. This skill no longer removes boons, but instead inflicts cripple for 5 seconds.
    Phantasmal Berserker: Cooldown reduced from 15 seconds to 12 seconds. This skill no longer cripples foes. Instead, the projectile now removes 2 boons. The projectile no longer boomerangs.

    meaning that you CANT even if you tried do any sustained damage.
    with the old trait due to perma cripple ( so perma uptime of 5% dmg sigil ) and reduced CD on gs4,3 and 2 you could kind of make it work.
    If they fix PB and daze mantra it would be a step in the right direction

    Fixing bugs are ofc always needed, like that they do not unbug PB is another story and doesn't rly have to do with balance questions. The face your target requirement for daze mantra is unncessary and bad, it should be removed, it contradicts the nature of instant skills and for that makes them very clunky and kind of usless in their defensive nature in lot of situations. MoP should also not have it either but for that just do really zero direct dmg. I still think it would be better to turn MoP into a boonremove mantra instead might/vuln self stacks. And remove face the target requirement from them totally.

    This is PvE only.
    In pvp only GS5 got reduced recharge.

    EDIT 1
    Greatsword

    Mirror Blade: Increased cooldown from 5 seconds to 8 seconds.
    I remember it saying it also increased CD of other GS skills in patch notes, its missing now. Ill log in game to take a look when it patches to make sure it is or isnt there.
    gonna make edit 2 to clarify when im done.

    EDIT 2
    GS 2. 8s cd.
    GS 3. 10s cd.
    GS 4. 20s cd
    GS 5. 25s cd
    meaning the cd reduction was PVE only, since it was mentioned in GENERAL changes its supposed to be applies to all modes and not pve only.
    I would post it in the bug section if I gave a kitten anymore but i wont, cuz not only its propably intended and whoever wrote the patch notes just made a mistake/forgot but also even if its not intended they wont fix it anyways

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

    The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

    Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

    I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

    Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I'd like anet to play thief a lot see how its a really kitten idea to take away stealth and all teleports.

    All people who play thief know that would be a bad idea.

    and thats why thief still has so many teleports he can give you epileptic seizures

    Its sorta like how a big deal losing that second dodge and a lot of the blinks is for mes no? since you guys got low hp.
    Thief class isn't exactly the highest hp.

    it wasnt even 1 dodge that put the mirage in the dirt.
    all defensive CDs got 50% cd increase, condi damage got ripped by 60%+ in some cases.
    and builds that you would fight didnt get those nerfs, warrior has as much evades and mobility as it used to. while mesmer lost its dodges and mobility.
    it had nothing to do with the dodge, we just meme about it cuz its fun.

    This.
    The dodge is the least of mesmer problems, problem is the adding up of nerfs prior to that.
    Several traits, both offensive and defensive were murdered or deleted.
    Damage, both power and condi was gutted.
    Phantasmal rework was a poisoned gift as I've been saying since it was released it cut out a lot of damage and added a lot of setting time to burst.

    It is funny how both extrema (Mesmer mains and Mesmer hater) completely miss the point: The one dodge change is the bad one, all previous nerfs were not the ones completely contradicting the mechanic of Mirage and dumbing it down. They were adjustment balance moves most of them i agree to (talking about the ones directed to the Mirage traitline, not the overnerf of shatters in terms of condi application). Even when Anet would remove all previous nerfs and only do the one dodge change it still would be completely unlogical nonsense and bad. It still would not solve any balance issue only Condimirage has (noobfriendly and passive playstyle) while still dumbing down the mechanic doubled instead higher the skill requirement to play Condimirage, while it still would overnerf and dumb down Powermirage for no reason. And that also is the point why Condimirage, just with another build, is still playable with some success (even though playing just Necro, Ele, Fb, Ranger or Condirev would be a way easier life) while Powermirage is only for masochists while also being dumbed down. The one dodge change did not solve any issue Condimirage had, it only dumbs down the elite mechanic as it dumps down dodge management in general (means would dumb down dodge management on all classes, Mirage only gets double dumbed down because it also contradicts the elite mechanic itself).
    And the biggest nonsense are arguments like "look you still can play Mirage just switch to mistake cover and low skill-friendly traitlines and toxic retargeting skills" and don't care that skillful builds on Mirage are compeltely butchered for the sake of not even solving any issue from Condimirage.

    That not even Mesmer mains get it leaves me open-mouthed!

    Just quote myself for a balance idea to make even Condimriage a higher skill ceiling spec while still balancing the power of it down to the post patch lvl so it will not be op after getting 2 dodges back:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    The problem is, when you now add more endurance reggen to a one dodge only bar it gets even more braindead spammy. Means you will even more force the situation where you just dumbed down the spec while not even solving any issue and make it more and more spammy and more and more dumbed down and passive the more endurance reggen you add.
    They just should give Mirage 2 dodges back and then adjust ambush dmg down to a balanced lvl. Like lower gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself (the clones do not rly do much dmg anyway, maybe reduce the might and vulnerability stacks a little bit) and rework Condi ambushes into something more being about effects and not dmg. Like you can make axe ambush stack a balanced amount of condition-dmg-stats for a short duration to force offensive dodges before goind for an axe 3 shatter burst, staff ambush can stack condition duration stat for a short duration, scepter could get a very little and well animated and with decent casttime added immob (1/4s on Mesmers, 1/8s on clones as duration, or just 1/4 on all skills while Mesmers own ambush has a little bit dmg in addition to be stronger than clone ambushes), that would force the Mesmer into offensive dodges to hit a short immob to prepare and secure a scepter 3 hit for example. Another possibility would be chill for scepter. Scepter ambush in general should be reworked to something with less single hits. Make it a one hit skill. For those changes condi clone ambushes ofc lose most of their condistacks (on scepter clones wouldn't do any dmg aside form stacking the effect). So you would need to dodge offensive to prepare a condi "burst" or a hit of bigger and active condiskills like shatters or weaponskills. These are just examples, there are lot of ways to rework condi ambushes and/ or nerf their dmg to a balanced lvl with giving 2 dodges back while keeping Mirage not op compared to the overall nerfed post patch situation.

    If you only give 2 dodges back to Mirage into the current situation where most stuff is nerfed too, it would probably be too op (at least on Condimirage, probably also on Power). So you ofc need to compensate the more dodges with nerfs at other places. And reworking amsbushes and nerfing ambush dmg where needed (from either Mesmers own ambush or clone ambushes) should be done in terms of higher skill ceiling and less passive playstyle anyway.

    Not talking about the mirage traitline, talking about duel, dom, BF, GS in general, MC (I know we disagree on this), portal and phantasms, don't really care about condi, so I'll leave it for others.

    BF?
    Still doesn't change the fact that the one dodge change is the worst and most unlogical from all nerfs, because it is a dumbed down move not solving any issue on Condimirage just killing active and high skill ceiling builds. Means it is in particular bad for Powermirage. Domi and Duelling are still good traitlines i don't see much of an issue here. I would not call them overnerfed. Only the condi application from shatters (what mostly was in Illusion traitline if i remember right?) can be blamed. They should have nerfed condi clone dmg (normal autoattacks and clone ambushes) instead.

    Blurred Frenzy.
    Confounding Suggestions was not OP neither difficult to balance and was a huge hit on power mes.
    The new GS trait it's certainly not deserving a GM spot, not with the amount of boon flying around in this game, you'll not achieve the bonus damage ever.
    The trait that took the CS place it's a freaking joke, if not for all the other major adepts traits being awful no one would take this.

    All dueling major master traits are bad, you could argue that Evasive Mirror was too good, but their method of balance was awful. Fencer's is a joke if you compare it with similar traits on other professions.

    Blurrend Frenzy what else, lol my bad.
    I am not sure about CS, an instant stun isn't unproblematic by itself already. If you then add stealth ability and oneshot potential to it you clearly have a balance issue. Also the new trait is not rly that bad. You more or less get an old mg trait in addition to an old mg trait like PB or MA. The new major grandmaster is kind of useless i agree. On the other side you get it in addition to the removed old mg Imagined Burden what now is a major adept. That is a buff overall. Even more when you use MA or PB in additon to it.

    BF i can argue was an in general good change for all Mesmer specs, it had what, over 2s evade? before that change, and barely could hit the dmg. They turned it from a busted defensive skill with bad offensive uses to a decent defensive skill with good offensive uses. It was overall a good change i would say. Ofc it got more sensitive to retalitation but that is by itself fine because everything should have counters. You also can cast it defensive away from the target to not get hit by retal if i am not mistaken. The problem with retaliation is more that some classes (mostly Guards) have a too high and for that too passive retaliation uptime in general. Means nerf retal uptime on a decent lvl and BF will be fine as it is.

    Blinding Dissipation is still a good trait i would say, means i disagree. ICD on dodge traits are always bad i agree to Evasive Mirror was balanced in a bad way. Fencer is not overwhelming i agree.

    Still nothing of that rly has to do with Mirage and taking those nerfs back would not justify the one dodge change on Mirage at all. Simply because that one dodge change doesn't make sense, no matter how you look at it with brain enabled.

    Reminder that with removal of GS trait mesmer lost CDR trait.
    only GS got reduced cd.
    so gs 2, gs 3 and gs 4 cant get 20% cdr on top of losing perma cripple.

    Yes but for that you can trait into it and get another mg trait in addition what is overall still a buff. Some skills got cripple on the weaposnskill in addition and gs4 got reduced cd on the weaponsskillitslef if i remember right. All in all a buff (at least whn used with PB or MA in addition).

    only gs5 got reduced cd.

    From the patch notes:
    Mind Stab: Cooldown reduced from 12 seconds to 10 seconds. This skill no longer removes boons, but instead inflicts cripple for 5 seconds.
    Phantasmal Berserker: Cooldown reduced from 15 seconds to 12 seconds. This skill no longer cripples foes. Instead, the projectile now removes 2 boons. The projectile no longer boomerangs.

    meaning that you CANT even if you tried do any sustained damage.
    with the old trait due to perma cripple ( so perma uptime of 5% dmg sigil ) and reduced CD on gs4,3 and 2 you could kind of make it work.
    If they fix PB and daze mantra it would be a step in the right direction

    Fixing bugs are ofc always needed, like that they do not unbug PB is another story and doesn't rly have to do with balance questions. The face your target requirement for daze mantra is unncessary and bad, it should be removed, it contradicts the nature of instant skills and for that makes them very clunky and kind of usless in their defensive nature in lot of situations. MoP should also not have it either but for that just do really zero direct dmg. I still think it would be better to turn MoP into a boonremove mantra instead might/vuln self stacks. And remove face the target requirement from them totally.

    This is PvE only.
    In pvp only GS5 got reduced recharge.

    EDIT 1
    Greatsword

    Mirror Blade: Increased cooldown from 5 seconds to 8 seconds.
    I remember it saying it also increased CD of other GS skills in patch notes, its missing now. Ill log in game to take a look when it patches to make sure it is or isnt there.
    gonna make edit 2 to clarify when im done.

    Yes MB got reduced cd PvE only, in PvP changes they increased it to the old one. But the other 2 i mentioned have only cd decrease written, so i think they got cd decrease in PvP too. But check ingame, i can't do that atm.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

    The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

    Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

    I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

    Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I'd like anet to play thief a lot see how its a really kitten idea to take away stealth and all teleports.

    All people who play thief know that would be a bad idea.

    and thats why thief still has so many teleports he can give you epileptic seizures

    Its sorta like how a big deal losing that second dodge and a lot of the blinks is for mes no? since you guys got low hp.
    Thief class isn't exactly the highest hp.

    it wasnt even 1 dodge that put the mirage in the dirt.
    all defensive CDs got 50% cd increase, condi damage got ripped by 60%+ in some cases.
    and builds that you would fight didnt get those nerfs, warrior has as much evades and mobility as it used to. while mesmer lost its dodges and mobility.
    it had nothing to do with the dodge, we just meme about it cuz its fun.

    This.
    The dodge is the least of mesmer problems, problem is the adding up of nerfs prior to that.
    Several traits, both offensive and defensive were murdered or deleted.
    Damage, both power and condi was gutted.
    Phantasmal rework was a poisoned gift as I've been saying since it was released it cut out a lot of damage and added a lot of setting time to burst.

    It is funny how both extrema (Mesmer mains and Mesmer hater) completely miss the point: The one dodge change is the bad one, all previous nerfs were not the ones completely contradicting the mechanic of Mirage and dumbing it down. They were adjustment balance moves most of them i agree to (talking about the ones directed to the Mirage traitline, not the overnerf of shatters in terms of condi application). Even when Anet would remove all previous nerfs and only do the one dodge change it still would be completely unlogical nonsense and bad. It still would not solve any balance issue only Condimirage has (noobfriendly and passive playstyle) while still dumbing down the mechanic doubled instead higher the skill requirement to play Condimirage, while it still would overnerf and dumb down Powermirage for no reason. And that also is the point why Condimirage, just with another build, is still playable with some success (even though playing just Necro, Ele, Fb, Ranger or Condirev would be a way easier life) while Powermirage is only for masochists while also being dumbed down. The one dodge change did not solve any issue Condimirage had, it only dumbs down the elite mechanic as it dumps down dodge management in general (means would dumb down dodge management on all classes, Mirage only gets double dumbed down because it also contradicts the elite mechanic itself).
    And the biggest nonsense are arguments like "look you still can play Mirage just switch to mistake cover and low skill-friendly traitlines and toxic retargeting skills" and don't care that skillful builds on Mirage are compeltely butchered for the sake of not even solving any issue from Condimirage.

    That not even Mesmer mains get it leaves me open-mouthed!

    Just quote myself for a balance idea to make even Condimriage a higher skill ceiling spec while still balancing the power of it down to the post patch lvl so it will not be op after getting 2 dodges back:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    The problem is, when you now add more endurance reggen to a one dodge only bar it gets even more braindead spammy. Means you will even more force the situation where you just dumbed down the spec while not even solving any issue and make it more and more spammy and more and more dumbed down and passive the more endurance reggen you add.
    They just should give Mirage 2 dodges back and then adjust ambush dmg down to a balanced lvl. Like lower gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself (the clones do not rly do much dmg anyway, maybe reduce the might and vulnerability stacks a little bit) and rework Condi ambushes into something more being about effects and not dmg. Like you can make axe ambush stack a balanced amount of condition-dmg-stats for a short duration to force offensive dodges before goind for an axe 3 shatter burst, staff ambush can stack condition duration stat for a short duration, scepter could get a very little and well animated and with decent casttime added immob (1/4s on Mesmers, 1/8s on clones as duration, or just 1/4 on all skills while Mesmers own ambush has a little bit dmg in addition to be stronger than clone ambushes), that would force the Mesmer into offensive dodges to hit a short immob to prepare and secure a scepter 3 hit for example. Another possibility would be chill for scepter. Scepter ambush in general should be reworked to something with less single hits. Make it a one hit skill. For those changes condi clone ambushes ofc lose most of their condistacks (on scepter clones wouldn't do any dmg aside form stacking the effect). So you would need to dodge offensive to prepare a condi "burst" or a hit of bigger and active condiskills like shatters or weaponskills. These are just examples, there are lot of ways to rework condi ambushes and/ or nerf their dmg to a balanced lvl with giving 2 dodges back while keeping Mirage not op compared to the overall nerfed post patch situation.

    If you only give 2 dodges back to Mirage into the current situation where most stuff is nerfed too, it would probably be too op (at least on Condimirage, probably also on Power). So you ofc need to compensate the more dodges with nerfs at other places. And reworking amsbushes and nerfing ambush dmg where needed (from either Mesmers own ambush or clone ambushes) should be done in terms of higher skill ceiling and less passive playstyle anyway.

    Not talking about the mirage traitline, talking about duel, dom, BF, GS in general, MC (I know we disagree on this), portal and phantasms, don't really care about condi, so I'll leave it for others.

    BF?
    Still doesn't change the fact that the one dodge change is the worst and most unlogical from all nerfs, because it is a dumbed down move not solving any issue on Condimirage just killing active and high skill ceiling builds. Means it is in particular bad for Powermirage. Domi and Duelling are still good traitlines i don't see much of an issue here. I would not call them overnerfed. Only the condi application from shatters (what mostly was in Illusion traitline if i remember right?) can be blamed. They should have nerfed condi clone dmg (normal autoattacks and clone ambushes) instead.

    Blurred Frenzy.
    Confounding Suggestions was not OP neither difficult to balance and was a huge hit on power mes.
    The new GS trait it's certainly not deserving a GM spot, not with the amount of boon flying around in this game, you'll not achieve the bonus damage ever.
    The trait that took the CS place it's a freaking joke, if not for all the other major adepts traits being awful no one would take this.

    All dueling major master traits are bad, you could argue that Evasive Mirror was too good, but their method of balance was awful. Fencer's is a joke if you compare it with similar traits on other professions.

    Blurrend Frenzy what else, lol my bad.
    I am not sure about CS, an instant stun isn't unproblematic by itself already. If you then add stealth ability and oneshot potential to it you clearly have a balance issue. Also the new trait is not rly that bad. You more or less get an old mg trait in addition to an old mg trait like PB or MA. The new major grandmaster is kind of useless i agree. On the other side you get it in addition to the removed old mg Imagined Burden what now is a major adept. That is a buff overall. Even more when you use MA or PB in additon to it.

    BF i can argue was an in general good change for all Mesmer specs, it had what, over 2s evade? before that change, and barely could hit the dmg. They turned it from a busted defensive skill with bad offensive uses to a decent defensive skill with good offensive uses. It was overall a good change i would say. Ofc it got more sensitive to retalitation but that is by itself fine because everything should have counters. You also can cast it defensive away from the target to not get hit by retal if i am not mistaken. The problem with retaliation is more that some classes (mostly Guards) have a too high and for that too passive retaliation uptime in general. Means nerf retal uptime on a decent lvl and BF will be fine as it is.

    Blinding Dissipation is still a good trait i would say, means i disagree. ICD on dodge traits are always bad i agree to Evasive Mirror was balanced in a bad way. Fencer is not overwhelming i agree.

    Still nothing of that rly has to do with Mirage and taking those nerfs back would not justify the one dodge change on Mirage at all. Simply because that one dodge change doesn't make sense, no matter how you look at it with brain enabled.

    Reminder that with removal of GS trait mesmer lost CDR trait.
    only GS got reduced cd.
    so gs 2, gs 3 and gs 4 cant get 20% cdr on top of losing perma cripple.

    Yes but for that you can trait into it and get another mg trait in addition what is overall still a buff. Some skills got cripple on the weaposnskill in addition and gs4 got reduced cd on the weaponsskillitslef if i remember right. All in all a buff (at least whn used with PB or MA in addition).

    only gs5 got reduced cd.

    From the patch notes:
    Mind Stab: Cooldown reduced from 12 seconds to 10 seconds. This skill no longer removes boons, but instead inflicts cripple for 5 seconds.
    Phantasmal Berserker: Cooldown reduced from 15 seconds to 12 seconds. This skill no longer cripples foes. Instead, the projectile now removes 2 boons. The projectile no longer boomerangs.

    meaning that you CANT even if you tried do any sustained damage.
    with the old trait due to perma cripple ( so perma uptime of 5% dmg sigil ) and reduced CD on gs4,3 and 2 you could kind of make it work.
    If they fix PB and daze mantra it would be a step in the right direction

    Fixing bugs are ofc always needed, like that they do not unbug PB is another story and doesn't rly have to do with balance questions. The face your target requirement for daze mantra is unncessary and bad, it should be removed, it contradicts the nature of instant skills and for that makes them very clunky and kind of usless in their defensive nature in lot of situations. MoP should also not have it either but for that just do really zero direct dmg. I still think it would be better to turn MoP into a boonremove mantra instead might/vuln self stacks. And remove face the target requirement from them totally.

    This is PvE only.
    In pvp only GS5 got reduced recharge.

    EDIT 1
    Greatsword

    Mirror Blade: Increased cooldown from 5 seconds to 8 seconds.
    I remember it saying it also increased CD of other GS skills in patch notes, its missing now. Ill log in game to take a look when it patches to make sure it is or isnt there.
    gonna make edit 2 to clarify when im done.

    Yes MB got reduced cd PvE only, in PvP changes they increased it to the old one. But the other 2 i mentioned have only cd decrease written, so i think they got cd decrease in PvP too. But check ingame, i can't do that atm.

    I remember it being included in PVP preview changes, but its missing in patch notes. Shrug.

  • Ghostof Luzifer.6159Ghostof Luzifer.6159 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2020

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

    The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

    Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

    I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

    Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

    Misha will be here whatever he play. (And there is hudge teamplay combo in his match.)
    Where is the second mesmer after him ?

    My point was that it isnt the class that restricts you. Misha can play it at very high level in both 5v5 and 2v2. Therefore unless misha is some superhuman immortal being, people qqing here could become decent with mirage aswell if theyd just try. Mirage had a lot of get-out-of jail free cards. Now they are gone and you actually have to be able to play the game to be good. Deal with it.

    Sorry but if only 1 guys does it (with hudge teamplay combo) while the next one is 1k miles away, it's more about the superhuman facts <3

    No one stops you from making the same "teamplay combo". I am pretty sure there are more mirages high ranked than you think. Also 2v2 isnt the measure for balance 5v5 is. What do you care what is optimal at high end level anyway? You can get to plat using a mirage dont worry. Just get good at the game.

    There is 5 mesmers in this game who can ask me to be good at the game, you aren't one of them, so don't start pulling me on this subject.
    Profite this period until mesmer get balanced again.

    Great point! /s If you are that good i am sure you donnt have much trouble. I played mesmer I dont see it being bad in 5v5 at all. Sure some classes are still overperforming but mirage isnt bad or in need of a buff like some people suggest. People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2020

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

    The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

    Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

    I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

    Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

    Misha will be here whatever he play. (And there is hudge teamplay combo in his match.)
    Where is the second mesmer after him ?

    My point was that it isnt the class that restricts you. Misha can play it at very high level in both 5v5 and 2v2. Therefore unless misha is some superhuman immortal being, people qqing here could become decent with mirage aswell if theyd just try. Mirage had a lot of get-out-of jail free cards. Now they are gone and you actually have to be able to play the game to be good. Deal with it.

    Sorry but if only 1 guys does it (with hudge teamplay combo) while the next one is 1k miles away, it's more about the superhuman facts <3

    No one stops you from making the same "teamplay combo". I am pretty sure there are more mirages high ranked than you think. Also 2v2 isnt the measure for balance 5v5 is. What do you care what is optimal at high end level anyway? You can get to plat using a mirage dont worry. Just get good at the game.

    There is 5 mesmers in this game who can ask me to be good at the game, you aren't one of them, so don't start pulling me on this subject.
    Profite this period until mesmer get balanced again.

    Great point! /s If you are that good i am sure you donnt have much trouble. I played mesmer I dont see it being bad in 5v5 at all. Sure some classes are still overperforming but mirage isnt bad or in need of a buff like some people suggest. People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

    Impressive how many ppl say that they play Mirage and it was good and easy yet we never saw any prove xD Ppl can talk a lot when the day is long and when you just can refuse to give any prove. At least i don't believe a single word of it until then and also do not take your claims about the class any serious. You ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim. Just claiming is not enough to convivce ppl with a bit of brain left, no matter how often you claim wrong stuff.

    Whatever, the question is not about buffs or no buffs mainly, the question is about making balance changes which actually make sense and add skill ceiling to the spec while solving the issues of Condimirage. Nothing of that was given by the one dodge change and Powermirage, what wasn't op before already, is clearly overnerfed and also dumbed down for no reason as a spin-off. And i doubt any of you would be able to play a Powermirage vs decent ppl even with 2 dodges on it.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

    The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

    Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

    I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

    Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

    Misha will be here whatever he play. (And there is hudge teamplay combo in his match.)
    Where is the second mesmer after him ?

    My point was that it isnt the class that restricts you. Misha can play it at very high level in both 5v5 and 2v2. Therefore unless misha is some superhuman immortal being, people qqing here could become decent with mirage aswell if theyd just try. Mirage had a lot of get-out-of jail free cards. Now they are gone and you actually have to be able to play the game to be good. Deal with it.

    Sorry but if only 1 guys does it (with hudge teamplay combo) while the next one is 1k miles away, it's more about the superhuman facts <3

    No one stops you from making the same "teamplay combo". I am pretty sure there are more mirages high ranked than you think. Also 2v2 isnt the measure for balance 5v5 is. What do you care what is optimal at high end level anyway? You can get to plat using a mirage dont worry. Just get good at the game.

    There is 5 mesmers in this game who can ask me to be good at the game, you aren't one of them, so don't start pulling me on this subject.
    Profite this period until mesmer get balanced again.

    Great point! /s If you are that good i am sure you donnt have much trouble. I played mesmer I dont see it being bad in 5v5 at all. Sure some classes are still overperforming but mirage isnt bad or in need of a buff like some people suggest. People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

    Impressive how many ppl say that they play Mirage and it was good and easy yet we never saw any prove xD Ppl can talk a lot when the day is long and when you just can refuse to give any prove. At least i don't believe a single word of it until then and also do not take your claims about the class any serious. You ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim. Just claiming is not enough to convivce ppl with a bit of brain left, no matter how often you claim wrong stuff.

    Whatever, the question is not about buffs or no buffs mainly, the question is about making balance changes which actually make sense and add skill ceiling to the spec while solving the issues of Condimirage. Nothing of that was given by the one dodge change and Powermirage, what wasn't op before already, is clearly overnerfed and also dumbed down for no reason as a spin-off. And i doubt any of you would be able to play a Powermirage vs decent ppl even with 2 dodges on it.

    It was my experience of 5v5. There is nothing to prove here. You dont seem to understand the words I am typing. I dont run an experiment. I dont proof I argue. My point simply being that mirage isnt in a worse spot than other classes and to say that memser has been "removed from the game" is simply wrong. Therefore I dont see why mirage is in need of some kind of extra treatment right now. Just wait for the upcomming balance. I dont mind your little discussion about skill ceiling and whatever..
    Just out of curiosity what would you concider prove? 5v5 isnt ranked right now so whats the point

    ou ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim. What are you even on about? lol Are you a ben shapiro viewer? :) I thought i expressed myself clearly. Apparently I was wrong. Again: Mirage isnt deleted from the game BECAUSE it has alot of DAMAGE and SURVIVABILITY. You can play it in 2v2 and 5v5. You see good players like misha perform well with it in BOTH gamemodes. If you find that you are struggeling that might be due to a learn to play issue rather than an issue of the powerlevel of the spec. Later i acknowledged that there a specs that are overperforming but that isnt a special case for mesmer.

    Again: People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2020

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

    The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

    Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

    I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

    Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

    Misha will be here whatever he play. (And there is hudge teamplay combo in his match.)
    Where is the second mesmer after him ?

    My point was that it isnt the class that restricts you. Misha can play it at very high level in both 5v5 and 2v2. Therefore unless misha is some superhuman immortal being, people qqing here could become decent with mirage aswell if theyd just try. Mirage had a lot of get-out-of jail free cards. Now they are gone and you actually have to be able to play the game to be good. Deal with it.

    Sorry but if only 1 guys does it (with hudge teamplay combo) while the next one is 1k miles away, it's more about the superhuman facts <3

    No one stops you from making the same "teamplay combo". I am pretty sure there are more mirages high ranked than you think. Also 2v2 isnt the measure for balance 5v5 is. What do you care what is optimal at high end level anyway? You can get to plat using a mirage dont worry. Just get good at the game.

    There is 5 mesmers in this game who can ask me to be good at the game, you aren't one of them, so don't start pulling me on this subject.
    Profite this period until mesmer get balanced again.

    Great point! /s If you are that good i am sure you donnt have much trouble. I played mesmer I dont see it being bad in 5v5 at all. Sure some classes are still overperforming but mirage isnt bad or in need of a buff like some people suggest. People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

    Impressive how many ppl say that they play Mirage and it was good and easy yet we never saw any prove xD Ppl can talk a lot when the day is long and when you just can refuse to give any prove. At least i don't believe a single word of it until then and also do not take your claims about the class any serious. You ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim. Just claiming is not enough to convivce ppl with a bit of brain left, no matter how often you claim wrong stuff.

    Whatever, the question is not about buffs or no buffs mainly, the question is about making balance changes which actually make sense and add skill ceiling to the spec while solving the issues of Condimirage. Nothing of that was given by the one dodge change and Powermirage, what wasn't op before already, is clearly overnerfed and also dumbed down for no reason as a spin-off. And i doubt any of you would be able to play a Powermirage vs decent ppl even with 2 dodges on it.

    It was my experience of 5v5. There is nothing to prove here. You dont seem to understand the words I am typing. I dont run an experiment. I dont proof I argue. My point simply being that mirage isnt in a worse spot than other classes and to say that memser has been "removed from the game" is simply wrong. Therefore I dont see why mirage is in need of some kind of extra treatment right now. Just wait for the upcomming balance. I dont mind your little discussion about skill ceiling and whatever..
    Just out of curiosity what would you concider prove? 5v5 isnt ranked right now so whats the point

    ou ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim. What are you even on about? lol Are you a ben shapiro viewer? :) I thought i expressed myself clearly. Apparently I was wrong. Again: Mirage isnt deleted from the game BECAUSE it has alot of DAMAGE and SURVIVABILITY. You can play it in 2v2 and 5v5. You see good players like misha perform well with it in BOTH gamemodes. If you find that you are struggeling that might be due to a learn to play issue rather than an issue of the powerlevel of the spec. Later i acknowledged that there a specs that are overperforming but that isnt a special case for mesmer.

    Again: People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

    Yeah and my experience is that a core static discharge Engi without a weapon and amulet equipped is still rly good BECAUSE it has alot of DAMAGE and SURVIVABILITY. You can play it in 2v2 and 5v5. I don't proof, i argue (no that is just a claim based on another unproved claim, not an argument, not a fact, check a dictionary/lexicon for the difference between claim/assertion and argumentation/reasoning pls). That is my experience from playing Core Engi without weapons/amulet, it was even very easy to play. You don't believe me? That is your problem, i will not use time to show you how i play it, i can claim that all day long and no one can prove me wrong and i will not prove me right . I am right and what i say is a prove by itself BECAUSE i justified my claim with another claim (true meaning: i CAN'T prove it because i know i am wrong so i just continue claiming what i WANT to be true). Do you now get the mistake here?

    Is this some spreading illness running in this forum/ Mesmer threads? The claim/ assertion/opinion vs explanation/ argumentation/facts/ prove blindness? You just claim and nothing else. That neither prove nor explain anything. You try to justify your claim about Mirage viability with another unproved claim about dmg and survivability.

    Misha is playing Condimirage, not Powermirage, what is possible because the one dodge change didn't solve any balance issue Condimirage had, it is still passive, spammy and noobfriendly (and i already EXPLAINED several times detailed and long why the one dodge change didn't solve any issue and even makes the balance problems worse, makes Condimirage even more spammy and passive because of the dumbed down dodgemanagement in general and the contradicted Mirage mechanic in particular). That is exactly the point. And have you tried Powermirage? Condimirage is not the only existing build. But even for Condimirage counts, that Misha just could switch to any other class and get the same result with even less effort and often also with less skill requirement. That there is one player can make Condimirage work vs decent ppl and one player can make Powermirage work doesn't prove at all that Mirage is viable. That it is ONLY one or only very few player can make it work would speak even more for the opposite of your opinion.
    Compared to Condimirage what can work with big effort from good players, Powermirage then clearly is only good for masochists who have no tryhard goal for rank, title or Mat win. While Powermirage also is dumbed down for no reason by that nonsense change.

    In the end no one is asking for big buffs, at least not to Condimirage, it is more about reverting the nonesense and brute/ primitive one dodge change and replace it with more fine adjusting nerfs at other places (passive clone dmg for example, means normal condi clone autoattacks and condiambushes) where the nerfs do not contradict the whole dodge- and Miragemechanic and where the changes rly solve the balance issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them and even overnerf not op, active and high skill ceiling power builds as a spin off and dumb down the whole spec.

    There is nothing to wait for, the one dodge change is obviously from a logical point of view completely nonsense, doesn't solve the balance issues of Condimirage, quite the opposite, overnerfs not op playstyles (non condi/ hybrid) and even dumbs down the whole dodge and elite mechanic. And for that it doesn't matter at all if one playstyle (only the braindead one ofc) is still somehow playable from some/few players in higher ranks/ vs decent ppl.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

    The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

    Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

    I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

    Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I'd like anet to play thief a lot see how its a really kitten idea to take away stealth and all teleports.

    All people who play thief know that would be a bad idea.

    and thats why thief still has so many teleports he can give you epileptic seizures

    Its sorta like how a big deal losing that second dodge and a lot of the blinks is for mes no? since you guys got low hp.
    Thief class isn't exactly the highest hp.

    it wasnt even 1 dodge that put the mirage in the dirt.
    all defensive CDs got 50% cd increase, condi damage got ripped by 60%+ in some cases.
    and builds that you would fight didnt get those nerfs, warrior has as much evades and mobility as it used to. while mesmer lost its dodges and mobility.
    it had nothing to do with the dodge, we just meme about it cuz its fun.

    This.
    The dodge is the least of mesmer problems, problem is the adding up of nerfs prior to that.
    Several traits, both offensive and defensive were murdered or deleted.
    Damage, both power and condi was gutted.
    Phantasmal rework was a poisoned gift as I've been saying since it was released it cut out a lot of damage and added a lot of setting time to burst.

    It is funny how both extrema (Mesmer mains and Mesmer hater) completely miss the point: The one dodge change is the bad one, all previous nerfs were not the ones completely contradicting the mechanic of Mirage and dumbing it down. They were adjustment balance moves most of them i agree to (talking about the ones directed to the Mirage traitline, not the overnerf of shatters in terms of condi application). Even when Anet would remove all previous nerfs and only do the one dodge change it still would be completely unlogical nonsense and bad. It still would not solve any balance issue only Condimirage has (noobfriendly and passive playstyle) while still dumbing down the mechanic doubled instead higher the skill requirement to play Condimirage, while it still would overnerf and dumb down Powermirage for no reason. And that also is the point why Condimirage, just with another build, is still playable with some success (even though playing just Necro, Ele, Fb, Ranger or Condirev would be a way easier life) while Powermirage is only for masochists while also being dumbed down. The one dodge change did not solve any issue Condimirage had, it only dumbs down the elite mechanic as it dumps down dodge management in general (means would dumb down dodge management on all classes, Mirage only gets double dumbed down because it also contradicts the elite mechanic itself).
    And the biggest nonsense are arguments like "look you still can play Mirage just switch to mistake cover and low skill-friendly traitlines and toxic retargeting skills" and don't care that skillful builds on Mirage are compeltely butchered for the sake of not even solving any issue from Condimirage.

    That not even Mesmer mains get it leaves me open-mouthed!

    Just quote myself for a balance idea to make even Condimriage a higher skill ceiling spec while still balancing the power of it down to the post patch lvl so it will not be op after getting 2 dodges back:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    The problem is, when you now add more endurance reggen to a one dodge only bar it gets even more braindead spammy. Means you will even more force the situation where you just dumbed down the spec while not even solving any issue and make it more and more spammy and more and more dumbed down and passive the more endurance reggen you add.
    They just should give Mirage 2 dodges back and then adjust ambush dmg down to a balanced lvl. Like lower gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself (the clones do not rly do much dmg anyway, maybe reduce the might and vulnerability stacks a little bit) and rework Condi ambushes into something more being about effects and not dmg. Like you can make axe ambush stack a balanced amount of condition-dmg-stats for a short duration to force offensive dodges before goind for an axe 3 shatter burst, staff ambush can stack condition duration stat for a short duration, scepter could get a very little and well animated and with decent casttime added immob (1/4s on Mesmers, 1/8s on clones as duration, or just 1/4 on all skills while Mesmers own ambush has a little bit dmg in addition to be stronger than clone ambushes), that would force the Mesmer into offensive dodges to hit a short immob to prepare and secure a scepter 3 hit for example. Another possibility would be chill for scepter. Scepter ambush in general should be reworked to something with less single hits. Make it a one hit skill. For those changes condi clone ambushes ofc lose most of their condistacks (on scepter clones wouldn't do any dmg aside form stacking the effect). So you would need to dodge offensive to prepare a condi "burst" or a hit of bigger and active condiskills like shatters or weaponskills. These are just examples, there are lot of ways to rework condi ambushes and/ or nerf their dmg to a balanced lvl with giving 2 dodges back while keeping Mirage not op compared to the overall nerfed post patch situation.

    If you only give 2 dodges back to Mirage into the current situation where most stuff is nerfed too, it would probably be too op (at least on Condimirage, probably also on Power). So you ofc need to compensate the more dodges with nerfs at other places. And reworking amsbushes and nerfing ambush dmg where needed (from either Mesmers own ambush or clone ambushes) should be done in terms of higher skill ceiling and less passive playstyle anyway.

    Not talking about the mirage traitline, talking about duel, dom, BF, GS in general, MC (I know we disagree on this), portal and phantasms, don't really care about condi, so I'll leave it for others.

    BF?
    Still doesn't change the fact that the one dodge change is the worst and most unlogical from all nerfs, because it is a dumbed down move not solving any issue on Condimirage just killing active and high skill ceiling builds. Means it is in particular bad for Powermirage. Domi and Duelling are still good traitlines i don't see much of an issue here. I would not call them overnerfed. Only the condi application from shatters (what mostly was in Illusion traitline if i remember right?) can be blamed. They should have nerfed condi clone dmg (normal autoattacks and clone ambushes) instead.

    Blurred Frenzy.
    Confounding Suggestions was not OP neither difficult to balance and was a huge hit on power mes.
    The new GS trait it's certainly not deserving a GM spot, not with the amount of boon flying around in this game, you'll not achieve the bonus damage ever.
    The trait that took the CS place it's a freaking joke, if not for all the other major adepts traits being awful no one would take this.

    All dueling major master traits are bad, you could argue that Evasive Mirror was too good, but their method of balance was awful. Fencer's is a joke if you compare it with similar traits on other professions.

    Blurrend Frenzy what else, lol my bad.
    I am not sure about CS, an instant stun isn't unproblematic by itself already. If you then add stealth ability and oneshot potential to it you clearly have a balance issue. Also the new trait is not rly that bad. You more or less get an old mg trait in addition to an old mg trait like PB or MA. The new major grandmaster is kind of useless i agree. On the other side you get it in addition to the removed old mg Imagined Burden what now is a major adept. That is a buff overall. Even more when you use MA or PB in additon to it.

    BF i can argue was an in general good change for all Mesmer specs, it had what, over 2s evade? before that change, and barely could hit the dmg. They turned it from a busted defensive skill with bad offensive uses to a decent defensive skill with good offensive uses. It was overall a good change i would say. Ofc it got more sensitive to retalitation but that is by itself fine because everything should have counters. You also can cast it defensive away from the target to not get hit by retal if i am not mistaken. The problem with retaliation is more that some classes (mostly Guards) have a too high and for that too passive retaliation uptime in general. Means nerf retal uptime on a decent lvl and BF will be fine as it is.

    Blinding Dissipation is still a good trait i would say, means i disagree. ICD on dodge traits are always bad i agree to Evasive Mirror was balanced in a bad way. Fencer is not overwhelming i agree.

    Still nothing of that rly has to do with Mirage and taking those nerfs back would not justify the one dodge change on Mirage at all. Simply because that one dodge change doesn't make sense, no matter how you look at it with brain enabled.

    Reminder that with removal of GS trait mesmer lost CDR trait.
    only GS got reduced cd.
    so gs 2, gs 3 and gs 4 cant get 20% cdr on top of losing perma cripple.

    Yes but for that you can trait into it and get another mg trait in addition what is overall still a buff. Some skills got cripple on the weaposnskill in addition and gs4 got reduced cd on the weaponsskillitslef if i remember right. All in all a buff (at least whn used with PB or MA in addition).

    only gs5 got reduced cd.

    From the patch notes:
    Mind Stab: Cooldown reduced from 12 seconds to 10 seconds. This skill no longer removes boons, but instead inflicts cripple for 5 seconds.
    Phantasmal Berserker: Cooldown reduced from 15 seconds to 12 seconds. This skill no longer cripples foes. Instead, the projectile now removes 2 boons. The projectile no longer boomerangs.

    meaning that you CANT even if you tried do any sustained damage.
    with the old trait due to perma cripple ( so perma uptime of 5% dmg sigil ) and reduced CD on gs4,3 and 2 you could kind of make it work.
    If they fix PB and daze mantra it would be a step in the right direction

    Fixing bugs are ofc always needed, like that they do not unbug PB is another story and doesn't rly have to do with balance questions. The face your target requirement for daze mantra is unncessary and bad, it should be removed, it contradicts the nature of instant skills and for that makes them very clunky and kind of usless in their defensive nature in lot of situations. MoP should also not have it either but for that just do really zero direct dmg. I still think it would be better to turn MoP into a boonremove mantra instead might/vuln self stacks. And remove face the target requirement from them totally.

    This is PvE only.
    In pvp only GS5 got reduced recharge.

    EDIT 1
    Greatsword

    Mirror Blade: Increased cooldown from 5 seconds to 8 seconds.
    I remember it saying it also increased CD of other GS skills in patch notes, its missing now. Ill log in game to take a look when it patches to make sure it is or isnt there.
    gonna make edit 2 to clarify when im done.

    Yes MB got reduced cd PvE only, in PvP changes they increased it to the old one. But the other 2 i mentioned have only cd decrease written, so i think they got cd decrease in PvP too. But check ingame, i can't do that atm.

    I remember it being included in PVP preview changes, but its missing in patch notes. Shrug.

    But you only need to look at your gs Mesmer while standing in PvP and you can see the current cds xD

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 thats what I did and included it into the post as edit 2.
    i just remember that there was GENERAL patch that reduced all cd of GS by about 20% ( what old trait used to do )
    and in pvp section they all got increses back to their old long values. but now the "nerfed" parts are missing so technically cds should be lowered, but they are not.
    only gs 5 got reduced.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @bravan.3876 thats what I did and included it into the post as edit 2.
    i just remember that there was GENERAL patch that reduced all cd of GS by about 20% ( what old trait used to do )
    and in pvp section they all got increses back to their old long values. but now the "nerfed" parts are missing so technically cds should be lowered, but they are not.
    only gs 5 got reduced.

    While gs5 cd reduction is the only one i could not find in the patch notes xD Weird. Btw Evasive Mirror was another dodge trait i forgot has ICD since some time. Still ICD on dodge traits to solve issues is the worst way to do it.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Ghostof Luzifer.6159Ghostof Luzifer.6159 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2020

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

    The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

    Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

    I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

    Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

    Misha will be here whatever he play. (And there is hudge teamplay combo in his match.)
    Where is the second mesmer after him ?

    My point was that it isnt the class that restricts you. Misha can play it at very high level in both 5v5 and 2v2. Therefore unless misha is some superhuman immortal being, people qqing here could become decent with mirage aswell if theyd just try. Mirage had a lot of get-out-of jail free cards. Now they are gone and you actually have to be able to play the game to be good. Deal with it.

    Sorry but if only 1 guys does it (with hudge teamplay combo) while the next one is 1k miles away, it's more about the superhuman facts <3

    No one stops you from making the same "teamplay combo". I am pretty sure there are more mirages high ranked than you think. Also 2v2 isnt the measure for balance 5v5 is. What do you care what is optimal at high end level anyway? You can get to plat using a mirage dont worry. Just get good at the game.

    There is 5 mesmers in this game who can ask me to be good at the game, you aren't one of them, so don't start pulling me on this subject.
    Profite this period until mesmer get balanced again.

    Great point! /s If you are that good i am sure you donnt have much trouble. I played mesmer I dont see it being bad in 5v5 at all. Sure some classes are still overperforming but mirage isnt bad or in need of a buff like some people suggest. People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

    Impressive how many ppl say that they play Mirage and it was good and easy yet we never saw any prove xD Ppl can talk a lot when the day is long and when you just can refuse to give any prove. At least i don't believe a single word of it until then and also do not take your claims about the class any serious. You ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim. Just claiming is not enough to convivce ppl with a bit of brain left, no matter how often you claim wrong stuff.

    Whatever, the question is not about buffs or no buffs mainly, the question is about making balance changes which actually make sense and add skill ceiling to the spec while solving the issues of Condimirage. Nothing of that was given by the one dodge change and Powermirage, what wasn't op before already, is clearly overnerfed and also dumbed down for no reason as a spin-off. And i doubt any of you would be able to play a Powermirage vs decent ppl even with 2 dodges on it.

    It was my experience of 5v5. There is nothing to prove here. You dont seem to understand the words I am typing. I dont run an experiment. I dont proof I argue. My point simply being that mirage isnt in a worse spot than other classes and to say that memser has been "removed from the game" is simply wrong. Therefore I dont see why mirage is in need of some kind of extra treatment right now. Just wait for the upcomming balance. I dont mind your little discussion about skill ceiling and whatever..
    Just out of curiosity what would you concider prove? 5v5 isnt ranked right now so whats the point

    ou ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim. What are you even on about? lol Are you a ben shapiro viewer? :) I thought i expressed myself clearly. Apparently I was wrong. Again: Mirage isnt deleted from the game BECAUSE it has alot of DAMAGE and SURVIVABILITY. You can play it in 2v2 and 5v5. You see good players like misha perform well with it in BOTH gamemodes. If you find that you are struggeling that might be due to a learn to play issue rather than an issue of the powerlevel of the spec. Later i acknowledged that there a specs that are overperforming but that isnt a special case for mesmer.

    Again: People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

    Yeah and my experience is that a core static discharge Engi without a weapon and amulet equipped is still rly good BECAUSE it has alot of DAMAGE and SURVIVABILITY. You can play it in 2v2 and 5v5. I don't proof, i argue (no that is just a claim based on another unproved claim, not an argument, not a fact, check a dictionary/lexicon for the difference between claim/assertion and argumentation/reasoning pls). That is my experience from playing Core Engi without weapons/amulet, it was even very easy to play. You don't believe me? That is your problem, i will not use time to show you how i play it, i can claim that all day long and no one can prove me wrong and i will not prove me right . I am right and what i say is a prove by itself BECAUSE i justified my claim with another claim (true meaning: i CAN'T prove it because i know i am wrong so i just continue claiming what i WANT to be true). Do you now get the mistake here?

    Is this some spreading illness running in this forum/ Mesmer threads? The claim/ assertion/opinion vs explanation/ argumentation/facts/ prove blindness? You just claim and nothing else. That neither prove nor explain anything. You try to justify your claim about Mirage viability with another unproved claim about dmg and survivability.

    Misha is playing Condimirage, not Powermirage, what is possible because the one dodge change didn't solve any balance issue Condimirage had, it is still passive, spammy and noobfriendly (and i already EXPLAINED several times detailed and long why the one dodge change didn't solve any issue and even makes the balance problems worse, makes Condimirage even more spammy and passive because of the dumbed down dodgemanagement in general and the contradicted Mirage mechanic in particular). That is exactly the point. And have you tried Powermirage? Condimirage is not the only existing build. But even for Condimirage counts, that Misha just could switch to any other class and get the same result with even less effort and often also with less skill requirement. That there is one player can make Condimirage work vs decent ppl and one player can make Powermirage work doesn't prove at all that Mirage is viable. That it is ONLY one or only very few player can make it work would speak even more for the opposite of your opinion.
    Compared to Condimirage what can work with big effort from good players, Powermirage then clearly is only good for masochists who have no tryhard goal for rank, title or Mat win. While Powermirage also is dumbed down for no reason by that nonsense change.

    In the end no one is asking for big buffs, at least not to Condimirage, it is more about reverting the nonesense and brute/ primitive one dodge change and replace it with more fine adjusting nerfs at other places (passive clone dmg for example, means normal condi clone autoattacks and condiambushes) where the nerfs do not contradict the whole dodge- and Miragemechanic and where the changes rly solve the balance issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them and even overnerf not op, active and high skill ceiling power builds as a spin off and dumb down the whole spec.

    There is nothing to wait for, the one dodge change is obviously from a logical point of view completely nonsense, doesn't solve the balance issues of Condimirage, quite the opposite, overnerfs not op playstyles (non condi/ hybrid) and even dumbs down the whole dodge and elite mechanic. And for that it doesn't matter at all if one playstyle (only the braindead one ofc) is still somehow playable from some/few players in higher ranks/ vs decent ppl.

    You can say that your experience of core engi was good. However I can argue against it. I could say that weapons and amulett are necessary for a good build. That is reasoning (deductive reasoning: amuletts and weapons are necessary to be concidered a good build. You dont have any. Therefore you dont have a good build.). Again: misha doing well is a fact and supports my claim + obviously i meant damage + survivability compared to other classes. (Do I really need to list you all the ports, stealths, evades, detargeting mechanics etc that condi mirage has? That can be concidered a "fact".) The logic being: If there are people who can play the class well and at high level. The class doesnt restrict you it is your personal skill. I admit that you will have an easier time on core neccro to reach that level in 2v2 but that is true for other classes than mesmer as well. So nothing special here for mesmer. That is rather a problem with core necro. You know that to be true, I wont make a spreadsheet for you, this isnt a scientific paper it is a forum.
    All I was saying is that condi mirage is viable in both 2v2 and 5v5. How is this a hot take? "Mesmer did not get deleted from the game. " All i ever said. Of course I would love it if mesmer had 15 builds /hyperbole, but sometimes you just dont get what you want. Just wait for the kitten next balance patch and calm down.

    **no that is just a claim based on another unproved claim, not an argument, not a fact, check a dictionary/lexicon for the difference between claim/assertion and argumentation/reasoning pls). **

    I feel like you are trolling me here. Didnt I literally say the sentence before that it was my experience. You are starting mix up what I was saying. I am pretty sure you are trolling me but anyway: That was my more my experienced not my argument. My arguement is the one above which I typed 5+ times now. You tried to counter it with: meh but there is only one option + misha is an almighty player who can do anything that nonone else can. Which I think are rather weak counter points. Currently in 2v2 there are some very oppressive classes and mesmer isnt the only one struggleing with it + 5v5 is the meassure for balance. About 5v5 we dont know that much. In 5v5 unranked my EXPERIENCE is that mirage is strong. (but that doesnt say much because its kitten unranked). Just wait for the kitten next balance patch and calm down. All I was ever saying is that mesmer still has a good spec to play and to have fun in the kitten game I am out.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @memausz.7264 said:
    So here's the problem, OP.
    Yes, I rarely see dev tags in PvP, at least in NA servers PvP Lobby. I'm also aware they can turn off their tags, too, but like... why would you conceal it unless you're going into an undercover thing which is bizarre but it can serve its purposes I suppose. I doubt they spend 2 games a day in PvP conquest. I really do. That being said, the ones that do shouldn't necessarily need to play all the classes, but should definitely have played enough (i.e., 100) games on a class to know what seems really OP in terms of that class and where it severely underperforms. The fact that ranger slipped through the nerfs seemingly unaffected really makes me question the quality control of patches.

    What also makes me have little faith in the abiltiy to balance is that in addition to the direct damage and condi/boon duration nerfs, they increased a lot of traitline and utility skill cooldowns which makes no sense because of how drastic a change the gameplay will experience following such nerfs.

    I know the forum warriors like to meme about me all the time, but they continuously ignore some of what I've got to say. One doesn't simply take away all the damage Prime Light Beam does and expect people to use it 25% of the time evenly along with the other elite skills accessible to holosmith. If they're looking for balanced usage, they really did themselves ugly because now Prime Light Beam only has CC application. Heal Turret is also somewhat crippled by its long 30-second cooldown. Elixir H and Medkit have pretty much emerged as the stronger healing skills now because of their low cooldowns and greater healing power than Heal Turret and especially Coolant Blast (which had its cooldown NERFED to 25 seconds, when it really struggled to be competitive vs. the other engi healing skills).

    The lack of stability across all professions, too, is stifling and slowing down games. Whereas you think you've bled someone off node, They start getting ressed, and two people who are DPS classes can't counter many professions' single player revive power. It's pretty bad.

    That and burn damage is still too dramatic from at least weavers and possibly guards, too. I recall a 1v1 I had the other day with a weaver, and I received 160 hits of burning for over 73K damage.... and btw, that was with Medkit cleansing, healing, Prismatic Singularity, sigil of cleansing.... you may be saying to yourselves, "Oh, holo shouldn't engage in that fight." How about weavers shouldn't be able to do cast burning which 5+ seconds of duration with Sage Amulet on? The condi damage is bursty, which is contrary to the intent of the developers, which, while I am criticizing it for being a bad change in the first place, should at least have consistency in its philosophy. Now the condi AoE burst classes and the super bunkers are the ones that win and it's made the game the least fun to play in the 2 years I've been playing it.

    They conceal it thanks to Helseth

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    Fun Daredevil

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @bravan.3876 thats what I did and included it into the post as edit 2.
    i just remember that there was GENERAL patch that reduced all cd of GS by about 20% ( what old trait used to do )
    and in pvp section they all got increses back to their old long values. but now the "nerfed" parts are missing so technically cds should be lowered, but they are not.
    only gs 5 got reduced.

    While gs5 cd reduction is the only one i could not find in the patch notes xD Weird. Btw Evasive Mirror was another dodge trait i forgot has ICD since some time. Still ICD on dodge traits to solve issues is the worst way to do it.

    icd for this trait is fine and dandy, what I dont like about it is that it triggers on nonprojectiles. making it super unreliable.
    and to top it off the only proj builds with burst proj are power and condi is the build that takes it and you end up with RNG unreliable reflect that reflects power damage as condi that scraches people most of the time. they should just rework this thing.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2020

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

    The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

    Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

    I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

    Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

    Misha will be here whatever he play. (And there is hudge teamplay combo in his match.)
    Where is the second mesmer after him ?

    My point was that it isnt the class that restricts you. Misha can play it at very high level in both 5v5 and 2v2. Therefore unless misha is some superhuman immortal being, people qqing here could become decent with mirage aswell if theyd just try. Mirage had a lot of get-out-of jail free cards. Now they are gone and you actually have to be able to play the game to be good. Deal with it.

    Sorry but if only 1 guys does it (with hudge teamplay combo) while the next one is 1k miles away, it's more about the superhuman facts <3

    No one stops you from making the same "teamplay combo". I am pretty sure there are more mirages high ranked than you think. Also 2v2 isnt the measure for balance 5v5 is. What do you care what is optimal at high end level anyway? You can get to plat using a mirage dont worry. Just get good at the game.

    There is 5 mesmers in this game who can ask me to be good at the game, you aren't one of them, so don't start pulling me on this subject.
    Profite this period until mesmer get balanced again.

    Great point! /s If you are that good i am sure you donnt have much trouble. I played mesmer I dont see it being bad in 5v5 at all. Sure some classes are still overperforming but mirage isnt bad or in need of a buff like some people suggest. People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

    Impressive how many ppl say that they play Mirage and it was good and easy yet we never saw any prove xD Ppl can talk a lot when the day is long and when you just can refuse to give any prove. At least i don't believe a single word of it until then and also do not take your claims about the class any serious. You ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim. Just claiming is not enough to convivce ppl with a bit of brain left, no matter how often you claim wrong stuff.

    Whatever, the question is not about buffs or no buffs mainly, the question is about making balance changes which actually make sense and add skill ceiling to the spec while solving the issues of Condimirage. Nothing of that was given by the one dodge change and Powermirage, what wasn't op before already, is clearly overnerfed and also dumbed down for no reason as a spin-off. And i doubt any of you would be able to play a Powermirage vs decent ppl even with 2 dodges on it.

    It was my experience of 5v5. There is nothing to prove here. You dont seem to understand the words I am typing. I dont run an experiment. I dont proof I argue. My point simply being that mirage isnt in a worse spot than other classes and to say that memser has been "removed from the game" is simply wrong. Therefore I dont see why mirage is in need of some kind of extra treatment right now. Just wait for the upcomming balance. I dont mind your little discussion about skill ceiling and whatever..
    Just out of curiosity what would you concider prove? 5v5 isnt ranked right now so whats the point

    ou ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim. What are you even on about? lol Are you a ben shapiro viewer? :) I thought i expressed myself clearly. Apparently I was wrong. Again: Mirage isnt deleted from the game BECAUSE it has alot of DAMAGE and SURVIVABILITY. You can play it in 2v2 and 5v5. You see good players like misha perform well with it in BOTH gamemodes. If you find that you are struggeling that might be due to a learn to play issue rather than an issue of the powerlevel of the spec. Later i acknowledged that there a specs that are overperforming but that isnt a special case for mesmer.

    Again: People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

    Yeah and my experience is that a core static discharge Engi without a weapon and amulet equipped is still rly good BECAUSE it has alot of DAMAGE and SURVIVABILITY. You can play it in 2v2 and 5v5. I don't proof, i argue (no that is just a claim based on another unproved claim, not an argument, not a fact, check a dictionary/lexicon for the difference between claim/assertion and argumentation/reasoning pls). That is my experience from playing Core Engi without weapons/amulet, it was even very easy to play. You don't believe me? That is your problem, i will not use time to show you how i play it, i can claim that all day long and no one can prove me wrong and i will not prove me right . I am right and what i say is a prove by itself BECAUSE i justified my claim with another claim (true meaning: i CAN'T prove it because i know i am wrong so i just continue claiming what i WANT to be true). Do you now get the mistake here?

    Is this some spreading illness running in this forum/ Mesmer threads? The claim/ assertion/opinion vs explanation/ argumentation/facts/ prove blindness? You just claim and nothing else. That neither prove nor explain anything. You try to justify your claim about Mirage viability with another unproved claim about dmg and survivability.

    Misha is playing Condimirage, not Powermirage, what is possible because the one dodge change didn't solve any balance issue Condimirage had, it is still passive, spammy and noobfriendly (and i already EXPLAINED several times detailed and long why the one dodge change didn't solve any issue and even makes the balance problems worse, makes Condimirage even more spammy and passive because of the dumbed down dodgemanagement in general and the contradicted Mirage mechanic in particular). That is exactly the point. And have you tried Powermirage? Condimirage is not the only existing build. But even for Condimirage counts, that Misha just could switch to any other class and get the same result with even less effort and often also with less skill requirement. That there is one player can make Condimirage work vs decent ppl and one player can make Powermirage work doesn't prove at all that Mirage is viable. That it is ONLY one or only very few player can make it work would speak even more for the opposite of your opinion.
    Compared to Condimirage what can work with big effort from good players, Powermirage then clearly is only good for masochists who have no tryhard goal for rank, title or Mat win. While Powermirage also is dumbed down for no reason by that nonsense change.

    In the end no one is asking for big buffs, at least not to Condimirage, it is more about reverting the nonesense and brute/ primitive one dodge change and replace it with more fine adjusting nerfs at other places (passive clone dmg for example, means normal condi clone autoattacks and condiambushes) where the nerfs do not contradict the whole dodge- and Miragemechanic and where the changes rly solve the balance issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them and even overnerf not op, active and high skill ceiling power builds as a spin off and dumb down the whole spec.

    There is nothing to wait for, the one dodge change is obviously from a logical point of view completely nonsense, doesn't solve the balance issues of Condimirage, quite the opposite, overnerfs not op playstyles (non condi/ hybrid) and even dumbs down the whole dodge and elite mechanic. And for that it doesn't matter at all if one playstyle (only the braindead one ofc) is still somehow playable from some/few players in higher ranks/ vs decent ppl.

    You can say that your experience of core engi was good. However I can argue against it. I could say that weapons and amulett are necessary for a good build. That is reasoning (deductive reasoning: amuletts and weapons are necessary to be concidered a good build. You dont have any. Therefore you dont have a good build.). Again: misha doing well is a fact and supports my claim + obviously i meant damage + survivability compared to other classes. (Do I really need to list you all the ports, stealths, evades, detargeting mechanics etc that condi mirage has? That can be concidered a "fact".) The logic being: If there are people who can play the class well and at high level. The class doesnt restrict you it is your personal skill. I admit that you will have an easier time on core neccro to reach that level in 2v2 but that is true for other classes than mesmer as well. So nothing special here for mesmer. That is rather a problem with core necro. You know that to be true, I wont make a spreadsheet for you, this isnt a scientific paper it is a forum.
    All I was saying is that condi mirage is viable in both 2v2 and 5v5. How is this a hot take? "Mesmer did not get deleted from the game. " All i ever said. Of course I would love it if mesmer had 15 builds /hyperbole, but sometimes you just dont get what you want. Just wait for the kitten next balance patch and calm down.

    **no that is just a claim based on another unproved claim, not an argument, not a fact, check a dictionary/lexicon for the difference between claim/assertion and argumentation/reasoning pls). **

    I feel like you are trolling me here. Didnt I literally say the sentence before that it was my experience. You are starting mix up what I was saying. I am pretty sure you are trolling me but anyway: That was my more my experienced not my argument. My arguement is the one above which I typed 5+ times now. You tried to counter it with: meh but there is only one option + misha is an almighty player who can do anything that nonone else can. Which I think are rather weak counter points. Currently in 2v2 there are some very oppressive classes and mesmer isnt the only one struggleing with it + 5v5 is the meassure for balance. About 5v5 we dont know that much. In 5v5 unranked my EXPERIENCE is that mirage is strong. (but that doesnt say much because its kitten unranked). Just wait for the kitten next balance patch and calm down. All I was ever saying is that mesmer still has a good spec to play and to have fun in the kitten game I am out.

    I give up, i argued against your claims just how you tried to argue against my claim about Engi, just that my claim is even more obvious wrong than yours, makes it easier for you to dismantle it without me going ingame and record some footage. That only a few player can make it work vs decent ppl is also more a prove for the opposite of your opinion you would do your claims a favor by not mentioning it actually xD.

    Anyway as said no one is asking for buffs, at least not to the one braindead playstyle (condi/hybrid) that is still playable for some extent by some ppl who don't care that they could have an easier life when just switching class, because the obviously wrong one dodge change didn't solve any issues of that passive and spammy playstyle. Mentioning all the active defense skills of Mirage they now are forced to stack incl toxic stuff like retargeting is also a joke when you compare it to all other classes and see that even Condimirage still has less dodges and less other active defense than all other classes, while also having less facetank sustain than most other classes in addition. For Powermirage it is even worse, it is clearly overnerfed and dumbed down for no raesons by that nonsense change, what you yet again just ignored. There is no need to wait for any balance changes because how much Mirage will be playable when using the lamest stuff it can find in terms of traitlines/ utilities etc. currently while all skillful builds are overnerfed doesn't matter for that logical conclusion. If you prefer a state where you only will see annoying to fight unhealthy and low skill ceiling Mirage builds instead turning the problematic condi/hybrid playstyles into a less noobfriendly and less toxic and less annoying to fight thing while keeping the already active and skillful playstyles at least semi viable than move on, you do great in cementing a braindead, skillless, toxic and still passive/spammy and annoying to fight Mirage meta still not that many ppl do make work atm.

    Claim what you want to claim about viability and dmg and survivability, that is up to you, but it is nothing more, just a claim, pretty meaningless. And then calling any ppl arguing against you as just too bad while you can't even prove yourself that you can make it work is the cake on top of your meaningless claims. I don't care about that personally as a player, i am not even a Mesmer main i enjoy my Necro as long as it last. I just look at balance changes in terms of do they make sense, do they lead into a more healthy balance with less braindead/ more skillful meta and are they fair compared to other classes or not. I do that as mulitclass player while trying to be as unbiased as possible during that and without just meaningless claims. That is why comments like yours just trigger me, no matter what class they are directed to, it is simple propaganda lvl and nothing more at this point. If you aren't entitled to add more than just meaningless claims to topics it is totally up to you but don't expect to convince anyone else except some Mesmer haters with it, who will like your claims and hope that the more they get repeated the more they become true.
    You guys are somehow funny in how unlogical you are. On one side you want to blame Mesmer player for playing braindead stuff and complain about how annoyig and unfair it feels to play vs the current condimeta, yet you vote for nerfs dumbing down the spec even more without solving any balance issues and try to cement a state where every skillful build is overnerfed, makes it impossible to play skillful builds on that class even for the best players in the game. Makes sense much xD

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @bravan.3876 thats what I did and included it into the post as edit 2.
    i just remember that there was GENERAL patch that reduced all cd of GS by about 20% ( what old trait used to do )
    and in pvp section they all got increses back to their old long values. but now the "nerfed" parts are missing so technically cds should be lowered, but they are not.
    only gs 5 got reduced.

    While gs5 cd reduction is the only one i could not find in the patch notes xD Weird. Btw Evasive Mirror was another dodge trait i forgot has ICD since some time. Still ICD on dodge traits to solve issues is the worst way to do it.

    icd for this trait is fine and dandy, what I dont like about it is that it triggers on nonprojectiles. making it super unreliable.
    and to top it off the only proj builds with burst proj are power and condi is the build that takes it and you end up with RNG unreliable reflect that reflects power damage as condi that scraches people most of the time. they should just rework this thing.

    That is exactly the point, the trait is proccing on dodge not on specific attacks and what you feel is then rng and something you cannot rly work with in a timed and tactical way because of that felt "rng" is caused by the ICD. That is exactly my point why i say ICDs on dodgetraits do not make sense, they turn every dodgetrait into something completely passive, kind of rng for everyone doesn't want to silently count down every seconds of the ICD during fights and make them totally unusable in an active and tactical way and that for both sides, the user and the opponent. Non of them can tactically work with them anymore. In fact an ICD does not rly solve any issue a dodge trait might have from bad desinged or too strong/ weak rewards on dodge, it makes the balance problem even worse and the trait more toxic and passive while deleting any possibility of counterplay and mindgames on both sides in a fight.

    Better just rework problematic dodge rewards or nerf/ buff them into the needed margin of the equilibrium to make them more active and less op at same time. Adding ICD is just a typical low effort and subpar way of balancing Anet likes to do to make stuff more clunky and less skillful for all sides in a fight.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

    The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

    Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

    I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

    Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

    Misha will be here whatever he play. (And there is hudge teamplay combo in his match.)
    Where is the second mesmer after him ?

    My point was that it isnt the class that restricts you. Misha can play it at very high level in both 5v5 and 2v2. Therefore unless misha is some superhuman immortal being, people qqing here could become decent with mirage aswell if theyd just try. Mirage had a lot of get-out-of jail free cards. Now they are gone and you actually have to be able to play the game to be good. Deal with it.

    Sorry but if only 1 guys does it (with hudge teamplay combo) while the next one is 1k miles away, it's more about the superhuman facts <3

    No one stops you from making the same "teamplay combo". I am pretty sure there are more mirages high ranked than you think. Also 2v2 isnt the measure for balance 5v5 is. What do you care what is optimal at high end level anyway? You can get to plat using a mirage dont worry. Just get good at the game.

    There is 5 mesmers in this game who can ask me to be good at the game, you aren't one of them, so don't start pulling me on this subject.
    Profite this period until mesmer get balanced again.

    Great point! /s If you are that good i am sure you donnt have much trouble. I played mesmer I dont see it being bad in 5v5 at all. Sure some classes are still overperforming but mirage isnt bad or in need of a buff like some people suggest. People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

    Impressive how many ppl say that they play Mirage and it was good and easy yet we never saw any prove xD Ppl can talk a lot when the day is long and when you just can refuse to give any prove. At least i don't believe a single word of it until then and also do not take your claims about the class any serious. You ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim. Just claiming is not enough to convivce ppl with a bit of brain left, no matter how often you claim wrong stuff.

    Whatever, the question is not about buffs or no buffs mainly, the question is about making balance changes which actually make sense and add skill ceiling to the spec while solving the issues of Condimirage. Nothing of that was given by the one dodge change and Powermirage, what wasn't op before already, is clearly overnerfed and also dumbed down for no reason as a spin-off. And i doubt any of you would be able to play a Powermirage vs decent ppl even with 2 dodges on it.

    It was my experience of 5v5. There is nothing to prove here. You dont seem to understand the words I am typing. I dont run an experiment. I dont proof I argue. My point simply being that mirage isnt in a worse spot than other classes and to say that memser has been "removed from the game" is simply wrong. Therefore I dont see why mirage is in need of some kind of extra treatment right now. Just wait for the upcomming balance. I dont mind your little discussion about skill ceiling and whatever..
    Just out of curiosity what would you concider prove? 5v5 isnt ranked right now so whats the point

    ou ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim. What are you even on about? lol Are you a ben shapiro viewer? :) I thought i expressed myself clearly. Apparently I was wrong. Again: Mirage isnt deleted from the game BECAUSE it has alot of DAMAGE and SURVIVABILITY. You can play it in 2v2 and 5v5. You see good players like misha perform well with it in BOTH gamemodes. If you find that you are struggeling that might be due to a learn to play issue rather than an issue of the powerlevel of the spec. Later i acknowledged that there a specs that are overperforming but that isnt a special case for mesmer.

    Again: People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

    Yeah and my experience is that a core static discharge Engi without a weapon and amulet equipped is still rly good BECAUSE it has alot of DAMAGE and SURVIVABILITY. You can play it in 2v2 and 5v5. I don't proof, i argue (no that is just a claim based on another unproved claim, not an argument, not a fact, check a dictionary/lexicon for the difference between claim/assertion and argumentation/reasoning pls). That is my experience from playing Core Engi without weapons/amulet, it was even very easy to play. You don't believe me? That is your problem, i will not use time to show you how i play it, i can claim that all day long and no one can prove me wrong and i will not prove me right . I am right and what i say is a prove by itself BECAUSE i justified my claim with another claim (true meaning: i CAN'T prove it because i know i am wrong so i just continue claiming what i WANT to be true). Do you now get the mistake here?

    Is this some spreading illness running in this forum/ Mesmer threads? The claim/ assertion/opinion vs explanation/ argumentation/facts/ prove blindness? You just claim and nothing else. That neither prove nor explain anything. You try to justify your claim about Mirage viability with another unproved claim about dmg and survivability.

    Misha is playing Condimirage, not Powermirage, what is possible because the one dodge change didn't solve any balance issue Condimirage had, it is still passive, spammy and noobfriendly (and i already EXPLAINED several times detailed and long why the one dodge change didn't solve any issue and even makes the balance problems worse, makes Condimirage even more spammy and passive because of the dumbed down dodgemanagement in general and the contradicted Mirage mechanic in particular). That is exactly the point. And have you tried Powermirage? Condimirage is not the only existing build. But even for Condimirage counts, that Misha just could switch to any other class and get the same result with even less effort and often also with less skill requirement. That there is one player can make Condimirage work vs decent ppl and one player can make Powermirage work doesn't prove at all that Mirage is viable. That it is ONLY one or only very few player can make it work would speak even more for the opposite of your opinion.
    Compared to Condimirage what can work with big effort from good players, Powermirage then clearly is only good for masochists who have no tryhard goal for rank, title or Mat win. While Powermirage also is dumbed down for no reason by that nonsense change.

    In the end no one is asking for big buffs, at least not to Condimirage, it is more about reverting the nonesense and brute/ primitive one dodge change and replace it with more fine adjusting nerfs at other places (passive clone dmg for example, means normal condi clone autoattacks and condiambushes) where the nerfs do not contradict the whole dodge- and Miragemechanic and where the changes rly solve the balance issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them and even overnerf not op, active and high skill ceiling power builds as a spin off and dumb down the whole spec.

    There is nothing to wait for, the one dodge change is obviously from a logical point of view completely nonsense, doesn't solve the balance issues of Condimirage, quite the opposite, overnerfs not op playstyles (non condi/ hybrid) and even dumbs down the whole dodge and elite mechanic. And for that it doesn't matter at all if one playstyle (only the braindead one ofc) is still somehow playable from some/few players in higher ranks/ vs decent ppl.

    You can say that your experience of core engi was good. However I can argue against it. I could say that weapons and amulett are necessary for a good build. That is reasoning (deductive reasoning: amuletts and weapons are necessary to be concidered a good build. You dont have any. Therefore you dont have a good build.). Again: misha doing well is a fact and supports my claim + obviously i meant damage + survivability compared to other classes. (Do I really need to list you all the ports, stealths, evades, detargeting mechanics etc that condi mirage has? That can be concidered a "fact".) The logic being: If there are people who can play the class well and at high level. The class doesnt restrict you it is your personal skill. I admit that you will have an easier time on core neccro to reach that level in 2v2 but that is true for other classes than mesmer as well. So nothing special here for mesmer. That is rather a problem with core necro. You know that to be true, I wont make a spreadsheet for you, this isnt a scientific paper it is a forum.
    All I was saying is that condi mirage is viable in both 2v2 and 5v5. How is this a hot take? "Mesmer did not get deleted from the game. " All i ever said. Of course I would love it if mesmer had 15 builds /hyperbole, but sometimes you just dont get what you want. Just wait for the kitten next balance patch and calm down.

    **no that is just a claim based on another unproved claim, not an argument, not a fact, check a dictionary/lexicon for the difference between claim/assertion and argumentation/reasoning pls). **

    I feel like you are trolling me here. Didnt I literally say the sentence before that it was my experience. You are starting mix up what I was saying. I am pretty sure you are trolling me but anyway: That was my more my experienced not my argument. My arguement is the one above which I typed 5+ times now. You tried to counter it with: meh but there is only one option + misha is an almighty player who can do anything that nonone else can. Which I think are rather weak counter points. Currently in 2v2 there are some very oppressive classes and mesmer isnt the only one struggleing with it + 5v5 is the meassure for balance. About 5v5 we dont know that much. In 5v5 unranked my EXPERIENCE is that mirage is strong. (but that doesnt say much because its kitten unranked). Just wait for the kitten next balance patch and calm down. All I was ever saying is that mesmer still has a good spec to play and to have fun in the kitten game I am out.

    I give up, i argued against your claims just how you tried to argue against my claim about Engi, just that my claim is even more obvious wrong than yours, makes it easier for you to dismantle it without me going ingame and record some footage. That only a few player can make it work vs decent ppl is also more a prove for the opposite of your opinion you would do your claims a favor by not mentioning it actually xD.

    Anyway as said no one is asking for buffs, at least not to the one braindead playstyle (condi/hybrid) that is still playable for some extent by some ppl who don't care that they could have an easier life when just switching class, because the obviously wrong one dodge change didn't solve any issues of that passive and spammy playstyle. Mentioning all the active defense skills of Mirage they now are forced to stack incl toxic stuff like retargeting is also a joke when you compare it to all other classes and see that even Condimirage still has less dodges and less other active defense than all other classes, while also having less facetank sustain than most other classes in addition. For Powermirage it is even worse, it is clearly overnerfed and dumbed down for no raesons by that nonsense change, what you yet again just ignored. There is no need to wait for any balance changes because how much Mirage will be playable when using the lamest stuff it can find in terms of traitlines/ utilities etc. currently while all skillful builds are overnerfed doesn't matter for that logical conclusion. If you prefer a state where you only will see annoying to fight unhealthy and low skill ceiling Mirage builds instead turning the problematic condi/hybrid playstyles into a less noobfriendly and less toxic and less annoying to fight thing while keeping the already active and skillful playstyles at least semi viable than move on, you do great in cementing a braindead, skillless, toxic and still passive/spammy and annoying to fight Mirage meta still not that many ppl do make work atm.

    Claim what you want to claim about viability and dmg and survivability, that is up to you, but it is nothing more, just a claim, pretty meaningless. And then calling any ppl arguing against you as just too bad while you can't even prove yourself that you can make it work is the cake on top of your meaningless claims. I don't care about that personally as a player, i am not even a Mesmer main i enjoy my Necro as long as it last. I just look at balance changes in terms of do they make sense, do they lead into a more healthy balance with less braindead/ more skillful meta and are they fair compared to other classes or not. I do that as mulitclass player while trying to be as unbiased as possible during that and without just meaningless claims. That is why comments like yours just trigger me, no matter what class they are directed to, it is simple propaganda lvl and nothing more at this point. If you aren't entitled to add more than just meaningless claims to topics it is totally up to you but don't expect to convince anyone else except some Mesmer haters with it, who will like your claims and hope that the more they get repeated the more they become true.
    You guys are somehow funny in how unlogical you are. On one side you want to blame Mesmer player for playing braindead stuff and complain about how annoyig and unfair it feels to play vs the current condimeta, yet you vote for nerfs dumbing down the spec even more without solving any balance issues and try to cement a state where every skillful build is overnerfed, makes it impossible to play skillful builds on that class even for the best players in the game. Makes sense much xD

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @bravan.3876 thats what I did and included it into the post as edit 2.
    i just remember that there was GENERAL patch that reduced all cd of GS by about 20% ( what old trait used to do )
    and in pvp section they all got increses back to their old long values. but now the "nerfed" parts are missing so technically cds should be lowered, but they are not.
    only gs 5 got reduced.

    While gs5 cd reduction is the only one i could not find in the patch notes xD Weird. Btw Evasive Mirror was another dodge trait i forgot has ICD since some time. Still ICD on dodge traits to solve issues is the worst way to do it.

    icd for this trait is fine and dandy, what I dont like about it is that it triggers on nonprojectiles. making it super unreliable.
    and to top it off the only proj builds with burst proj are power and condi is the build that takes it and you end up with RNG unreliable reflect that reflects power damage as condi that scraches people most of the time. they should just rework this thing.

    That is exactly the point, the trait is proccing on dodge not on specific attacks and what you feel is then rng and something you cannot rly work with in a timed and tactical way because of that felt "rng" is caused by the ICD. That is exactly my point why i say ICDs on dodgetraits do not make sense, they turn every dodgetrait into something completely passive, kind of rng for everyone doesn't want to silently count down every seconds of the ICD during fights and make them totally unusable in an active and tactical way and that for both sides, the user and the opponent. Non of them can tactically work with them anymore. In fact an ICD does not rly solve any issue a dodge trait might have from bad desinged or too strong/ weak rewards on dodge, it makes the balance problem even worse and the trait more toxic and passive while deleting any possibility of counterplay and mindgames on both sides in a fight.

    Better just rework problematic dodge rewards or nerf/ buff them into the needed margin of the equilibrium to make them more active and less op at same time. Adding ICD is just a typical low effort and subpar way of balancing Anet likes to do to make stuff more clunky and less skillful for all sides in a fight.

    Did you even read what i wrote? Fyi I AGREE condi mirage is cancer. i would like power mirage to be good. However I only said mirage is still viable in both gamemodes. that is true. Nothing about the rest. I responded to the comment: "the current mesmer got removed from the game". That isnt ttrue. Thats all I said. You keep missing the point. Its astonishing tbh.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2020

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

    The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

    Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

    I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

    Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

    Misha will be here whatever he play. (And there is hudge teamplay combo in his match.)
    Where is the second mesmer after him ?

    My point was that it isnt the class that restricts you. Misha can play it at very high level in both 5v5 and 2v2. Therefore unless misha is some superhuman immortal being, people qqing here could become decent with mirage aswell if theyd just try. Mirage had a lot of get-out-of jail free cards. Now they are gone and you actually have to be able to play the game to be good. Deal with it.

    Sorry but if only 1 guys does it (with hudge teamplay combo) while the next one is 1k miles away, it's more about the superhuman facts <3

    No one stops you from making the same "teamplay combo". I am pretty sure there are more mirages high ranked than you think. Also 2v2 isnt the measure for balance 5v5 is. What do you care what is optimal at high end level anyway? You can get to plat using a mirage dont worry. Just get good at the game.

    There is 5 mesmers in this game who can ask me to be good at the game, you aren't one of them, so don't start pulling me on this subject.
    Profite this period until mesmer get balanced again.

    Great point! /s If you are that good i am sure you donnt have much trouble. I played mesmer I dont see it being bad in 5v5 at all. Sure some classes are still overperforming but mirage isnt bad or in need of a buff like some people suggest. People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

    Impressive how many ppl say that they play Mirage and it was good and easy yet we never saw any prove xD Ppl can talk a lot when the day is long and when you just can refuse to give any prove. At least i don't believe a single word of it until then and also do not take your claims about the class any serious. You ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim. Just claiming is not enough to convivce ppl with a bit of brain left, no matter how often you claim wrong stuff.

    Whatever, the question is not about buffs or no buffs mainly, the question is about making balance changes which actually make sense and add skill ceiling to the spec while solving the issues of Condimirage. Nothing of that was given by the one dodge change and Powermirage, what wasn't op before already, is clearly overnerfed and also dumbed down for no reason as a spin-off. And i doubt any of you would be able to play a Powermirage vs decent ppl even with 2 dodges on it.

    It was my experience of 5v5. There is nothing to prove here. You dont seem to understand the words I am typing. I dont run an experiment. I dont proof I argue. My point simply being that mirage isnt in a worse spot than other classes and to say that memser has been "removed from the game" is simply wrong. Therefore I dont see why mirage is in need of some kind of extra treatment right now. Just wait for the upcomming balance. I dont mind your little discussion about skill ceiling and whatever..
    Just out of curiosity what would you concider prove? 5v5 isnt ranked right now so whats the point

    ou ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim. What are you even on about? lol Are you a ben shapiro viewer? :) I thought i expressed myself clearly. Apparently I was wrong. Again: Mirage isnt deleted from the game BECAUSE it has alot of DAMAGE and SURVIVABILITY. You can play it in 2v2 and 5v5. You see good players like misha perform well with it in BOTH gamemodes. If you find that you are struggeling that might be due to a learn to play issue rather than an issue of the powerlevel of the spec. Later i acknowledged that there a specs that are overperforming but that isnt a special case for mesmer.

    Again: People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

    Yeah and my experience is that a core static discharge Engi without a weapon and amulet equipped is still rly good BECAUSE it has alot of DAMAGE and SURVIVABILITY. You can play it in 2v2 and 5v5. I don't proof, i argue (no that is just a claim based on another unproved claim, not an argument, not a fact, check a dictionary/lexicon for the difference between claim/assertion and argumentation/reasoning pls). That is my experience from playing Core Engi without weapons/amulet, it was even very easy to play. You don't believe me? That is your problem, i will not use time to show you how i play it, i can claim that all day long and no one can prove me wrong and i will not prove me right . I am right and what i say is a prove by itself BECAUSE i justified my claim with another claim (true meaning: i CAN'T prove it because i know i am wrong so i just continue claiming what i WANT to be true). Do you now get the mistake here?

    Is this some spreading illness running in this forum/ Mesmer threads? The claim/ assertion/opinion vs explanation/ argumentation/facts/ prove blindness? You just claim and nothing else. That neither prove nor explain anything. You try to justify your claim about Mirage viability with another unproved claim about dmg and survivability.

    Misha is playing Condimirage, not Powermirage, what is possible because the one dodge change didn't solve any balance issue Condimirage had, it is still passive, spammy and noobfriendly (and i already EXPLAINED several times detailed and long why the one dodge change didn't solve any issue and even makes the balance problems worse, makes Condimirage even more spammy and passive because of the dumbed down dodgemanagement in general and the contradicted Mirage mechanic in particular). That is exactly the point. And have you tried Powermirage? Condimirage is not the only existing build. But even for Condimirage counts, that Misha just could switch to any other class and get the same result with even less effort and often also with less skill requirement. That there is one player can make Condimirage work vs decent ppl and one player can make Powermirage work doesn't prove at all that Mirage is viable. That it is ONLY one or only very few player can make it work would speak even more for the opposite of your opinion.
    Compared to Condimirage what can work with big effort from good players, Powermirage then clearly is only good for masochists who have no tryhard goal for rank, title or Mat win. While Powermirage also is dumbed down for no reason by that nonsense change.

    In the end no one is asking for big buffs, at least not to Condimirage, it is more about reverting the nonesense and brute/ primitive one dodge change and replace it with more fine adjusting nerfs at other places (passive clone dmg for example, means normal condi clone autoattacks and condiambushes) where the nerfs do not contradict the whole dodge- and Miragemechanic and where the changes rly solve the balance issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them and even overnerf not op, active and high skill ceiling power builds as a spin off and dumb down the whole spec.

    There is nothing to wait for, the one dodge change is obviously from a logical point of view completely nonsense, doesn't solve the balance issues of Condimirage, quite the opposite, overnerfs not op playstyles (non condi/ hybrid) and even dumbs down the whole dodge and elite mechanic. And for that it doesn't matter at all if one playstyle (only the braindead one ofc) is still somehow playable from some/few players in higher ranks/ vs decent ppl.

    You can say that your experience of core engi was good. However I can argue against it. I could say that weapons and amulett are necessary for a good build. That is reasoning (deductive reasoning: amuletts and weapons are necessary to be concidered a good build. You dont have any. Therefore you dont have a good build.). Again: misha doing well is a fact and supports my claim + obviously i meant damage + survivability compared to other classes. (Do I really need to list you all the ports, stealths, evades, detargeting mechanics etc that condi mirage has? That can be concidered a "fact".) The logic being: If there are people who can play the class well and at high level. The class doesnt restrict you it is your personal skill. I admit that you will have an easier time on core neccro to reach that level in 2v2 but that is true for other classes than mesmer as well. So nothing special here for mesmer. That is rather a problem with core necro. You know that to be true, I wont make a spreadsheet for you, this isnt a scientific paper it is a forum.
    All I was saying is that condi mirage is viable in both 2v2 and 5v5. How is this a hot take? "Mesmer did not get deleted from the game. " All i ever said. Of course I would love it if mesmer had 15 builds /hyperbole, but sometimes you just dont get what you want. Just wait for the kitten next balance patch and calm down.

    **no that is just a claim based on another unproved claim, not an argument, not a fact, check a dictionary/lexicon for the difference between claim/assertion and argumentation/reasoning pls). **

    I feel like you are trolling me here. Didnt I literally say the sentence before that it was my experience. You are starting mix up what I was saying. I am pretty sure you are trolling me but anyway: That was my more my experienced not my argument. My arguement is the one above which I typed 5+ times now. You tried to counter it with: meh but there is only one option + misha is an almighty player who can do anything that nonone else can. Which I think are rather weak counter points. Currently in 2v2 there are some very oppressive classes and mesmer isnt the only one struggleing with it + 5v5 is the meassure for balance. About 5v5 we dont know that much. In 5v5 unranked my EXPERIENCE is that mirage is strong. (but that doesnt say much because its kitten unranked). Just wait for the kitten next balance patch and calm down. All I was ever saying is that mesmer still has a good spec to play and to have fun in the kitten game I am out.

    I give up, i argued against your claims just how you tried to argue against my claim about Engi, just that my claim is even more obvious wrong than yours, makes it easier for you to dismantle it without me going ingame and record some footage. That only a few player can make it work vs decent ppl is also more a prove for the opposite of your opinion you would do your claims a favor by not mentioning it actually xD.

    Anyway as said no one is asking for buffs, at least not to the one braindead playstyle (condi/hybrid) that is still playable for some extent by some ppl who don't care that they could have an easier life when just switching class, because the obviously wrong one dodge change didn't solve any issues of that passive and spammy playstyle. Mentioning all the active defense skills of Mirage they now are forced to stack incl toxic stuff like retargeting is also a joke when you compare it to all other classes and see that even Condimirage still has less dodges and less other active defense than all other classes, while also having less facetank sustain than most other classes in addition. For Powermirage it is even worse, it is clearly overnerfed and dumbed down for no raesons by that nonsense change, what you yet again just ignored. There is no need to wait for any balance changes because how much Mirage will be playable when using the lamest stuff it can find in terms of traitlines/ utilities etc. currently while all skillful builds are overnerfed doesn't matter for that logical conclusion. If you prefer a state where you only will see annoying to fight unhealthy and low skill ceiling Mirage builds instead turning the problematic condi/hybrid playstyles into a less noobfriendly and less toxic and less annoying to fight thing while keeping the already active and skillful playstyles at least semi viable than move on, you do great in cementing a braindead, skillless, toxic and still passive/spammy and annoying to fight Mirage meta still not that many ppl do make work atm.

    Claim what you want to claim about viability and dmg and survivability, that is up to you, but it is nothing more, just a claim, pretty meaningless. And then calling any ppl arguing against you as just too bad while you can't even prove yourself that you can make it work is the cake on top of your meaningless claims. I don't care about that personally as a player, i am not even a Mesmer main i enjoy my Necro as long as it last. I just look at balance changes in terms of do they make sense, do they lead into a more healthy balance with less braindead/ more skillful meta and are they fair compared to other classes or not. I do that as mulitclass player while trying to be as unbiased as possible during that and without just meaningless claims. That is why comments like yours just trigger me, no matter what class they are directed to, it is simple propaganda lvl and nothing more at this point. If you aren't entitled to add more than just meaningless claims to topics it is totally up to you but don't expect to convince anyone else except some Mesmer haters with it, who will like your claims and hope that the more they get repeated the more they become true.
    You guys are somehow funny in how unlogical you are. On one side you want to blame Mesmer player for playing braindead stuff and complain about how annoyig and unfair it feels to play vs the current condimeta, yet you vote for nerfs dumbing down the spec even more without solving any balance issues and try to cement a state where every skillful build is overnerfed, makes it impossible to play skillful builds on that class even for the best players in the game. Makes sense much xD

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @bravan.3876 thats what I did and included it into the post as edit 2.
    i just remember that there was GENERAL patch that reduced all cd of GS by about 20% ( what old trait used to do )
    and in pvp section they all got increses back to their old long values. but now the "nerfed" parts are missing so technically cds should be lowered, but they are not.
    only gs 5 got reduced.

    While gs5 cd reduction is the only one i could not find in the patch notes xD Weird. Btw Evasive Mirror was another dodge trait i forgot has ICD since some time. Still ICD on dodge traits to solve issues is the worst way to do it.

    icd for this trait is fine and dandy, what I dont like about it is that it triggers on nonprojectiles. making it super unreliable.
    and to top it off the only proj builds with burst proj are power and condi is the build that takes it and you end up with RNG unreliable reflect that reflects power damage as condi that scraches people most of the time. they should just rework this thing.

    That is exactly the point, the trait is proccing on dodge not on specific attacks and what you feel is then rng and something you cannot rly work with in a timed and tactical way because of that felt "rng" is caused by the ICD. That is exactly my point why i say ICDs on dodgetraits do not make sense, they turn every dodgetrait into something completely passive, kind of rng for everyone doesn't want to silently count down every seconds of the ICD during fights and make them totally unusable in an active and tactical way and that for both sides, the user and the opponent. Non of them can tactically work with them anymore. In fact an ICD does not rly solve any issue a dodge trait might have from bad desinged or too strong/ weak rewards on dodge, it makes the balance problem even worse and the trait more toxic and passive while deleting any possibility of counterplay and mindgames on both sides in a fight.

    Better just rework problematic dodge rewards or nerf/ buff them into the needed margin of the equilibrium to make them more active and less op at same time. Adding ICD is just a typical low effort and subpar way of balancing Anet likes to do to make stuff more clunky and less skillful for all sides in a fight.

    Did you even read what i wrote? Fyi I AGREE condi mirage is cancer. i would like power mirage to be good. However I only said mirage is still viable in both gamemodes. that is true. Nothing about the rest. I responded to the comment: "the current mesmer got removed from the game". That isnt ttrue. Thats all I said. You keep missing the point. Its astonishing tbh.

    Being playable by very few ppl on higher PvP lvl when even these few could just switch to any other class for the same result with even less effort and mostly even less skill requirement by having more impact on a match is not viability. Calling out how numerious Condimirage active defense tools are while every other class outdodges and outsustain even Condimirage stacking every toxic and noobcarry trait/skill (incl toxic and unhealthy, low skill ceiling/ floor retargeting kitten) they can find is not true either. Other playstyles like skillful power (not talking about useless/ impactless but noobcarry semibunker a la Vallun) meanwhile are butchered. So no you are wrong. Also saying just wait for nerfs to other classes is wrong, because as explained, it doesn't matter for the analysis of how bad the one dodge change is that there is one semi playable (what is not viable, it is just semi playable) build, that needs to stack all toxic and noobcarry kitten it can find.
    At least you agree to everyhting else i said xD Better than nothing i guess.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

    The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

    Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

    I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

    Mirage is still strong. It has a lot of damage and great survivability. That is true for 5v5 and for 2v2. Misha plays mirage and he is rank 3 or so on the 2v2 leaderboard. It is mmore a learn to play issue than an issue with the class.

    Misha will be here whatever he play. (And there is hudge teamplay combo in his match.)
    Where is the second mesmer after him ?

    My point was that it isnt the class that restricts you. Misha can play it at very high level in both 5v5 and 2v2. Therefore unless misha is some superhuman immortal being, people qqing here could become decent with mirage aswell if theyd just try. Mirage had a lot of get-out-of jail free cards. Now they are gone and you actually have to be able to play the game to be good. Deal with it.

    Sorry but if only 1 guys does it (with hudge teamplay combo) while the next one is 1k miles away, it's more about the superhuman facts <3

    No one stops you from making the same "teamplay combo". I am pretty sure there are more mirages high ranked than you think. Also 2v2 isnt the measure for balance 5v5 is. What do you care what is optimal at high end level anyway? You can get to plat using a mirage dont worry. Just get good at the game.

    There is 5 mesmers in this game who can ask me to be good at the game, you aren't one of them, so don't start pulling me on this subject.
    Profite this period until mesmer get balanced again.

    Great point! /s If you are that good i am sure you donnt have much trouble. I played mesmer I dont see it being bad in 5v5 at all. Sure some classes are still overperforming but mirage isnt bad or in need of a buff like some people suggest. People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

    Impressive how many ppl say that they play Mirage and it was good and easy yet we never saw any prove xD Ppl can talk a lot when the day is long and when you just can refuse to give any prove. At least i don't believe a single word of it until then and also do not take your claims about the class any serious. You ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim. Just claiming is not enough to convivce ppl with a bit of brain left, no matter how often you claim wrong stuff.

    Whatever, the question is not about buffs or no buffs mainly, the question is about making balance changes which actually make sense and add skill ceiling to the spec while solving the issues of Condimirage. Nothing of that was given by the one dodge change and Powermirage, what wasn't op before already, is clearly overnerfed and also dumbed down for no reason as a spin-off. And i doubt any of you would be able to play a Powermirage vs decent ppl even with 2 dodges on it.

    It was my experience of 5v5. There is nothing to prove here. You dont seem to understand the words I am typing. I dont run an experiment. I dont proof I argue. My point simply being that mirage isnt in a worse spot than other classes and to say that memser has been "removed from the game" is simply wrong. Therefore I dont see why mirage is in need of some kind of extra treatment right now. Just wait for the upcomming balance. I dont mind your little discussion about skill ceiling and whatever..
    Just out of curiosity what would you concider prove? 5v5 isnt ranked right now so whats the point

    ou ppl don't even explain based on logic and facts why you claim what you claim. What are you even on about? lol Are you a ben shapiro viewer? :) I thought i expressed myself clearly. Apparently I was wrong. Again: Mirage isnt deleted from the game BECAUSE it has alot of DAMAGE and SURVIVABILITY. You can play it in 2v2 and 5v5. You see good players like misha perform well with it in BOTH gamemodes. If you find that you are struggeling that might be due to a learn to play issue rather than an issue of the powerlevel of the spec. Later i acknowledged that there a specs that are overperforming but that isnt a special case for mesmer.

    Again: People should just wait for future balance and calm down.

    Yeah and my experience is that a core static discharge Engi without a weapon and amulet equipped is still rly good BECAUSE it has alot of DAMAGE and SURVIVABILITY. You can play it in 2v2 and 5v5. I don't proof, i argue (no that is just a claim based on another unproved claim, not an argument, not a fact, check a dictionary/lexicon for the difference between claim/assertion and argumentation/reasoning pls). That is my experience from playing Core Engi without weapons/amulet, it was even very easy to play. You don't believe me? That is your problem, i will not use time to show you how i play it, i can claim that all day long and no one can prove me wrong and i will not prove me right . I am right and what i say is a prove by itself BECAUSE i justified my claim with another claim (true meaning: i CAN'T prove it because i know i am wrong so i just continue claiming what i WANT to be true). Do you now get the mistake here?

    Is this some spreading illness running in this forum/ Mesmer threads? The claim/ assertion/opinion vs explanation/ argumentation/facts/ prove blindness? You just claim and nothing else. That neither prove nor explain anything. You try to justify your claim about Mirage viability with another unproved claim about dmg and survivability.

    Misha is playing Condimirage, not Powermirage, what is possible because the one dodge change didn't solve any balance issue Condimirage had, it is still passive, spammy and noobfriendly (and i already EXPLAINED several times detailed and long why the one dodge change didn't solve any issue and even makes the balance problems worse, makes Condimirage even more spammy and passive because of the dumbed down dodgemanagement in general and the contradicted Mirage mechanic in particular). That is exactly the point. And have you tried Powermirage? Condimirage is not the only existing build. But even for Condimirage counts, that Misha just could switch to any other class and get the same result with even less effort and often also with less skill requirement. That there is one player can make Condimirage work vs decent ppl and one player can make Powermirage work doesn't prove at all that Mirage is viable. That it is ONLY one or only very few player can make it work would speak even more for the opposite of your opinion.
    Compared to Condimirage what can work with big effort from good players, Powermirage then clearly is only good for masochists who have no tryhard goal for rank, title or Mat win. While Powermirage also is dumbed down for no reason by that nonsense change.

    In the end no one is asking for big buffs, at least not to Condimirage, it is more about reverting the nonesense and brute/ primitive one dodge change and replace it with more fine adjusting nerfs at other places (passive clone dmg for example, means normal condi clone autoattacks and condiambushes) where the nerfs do not contradict the whole dodge- and Miragemechanic and where the changes rly solve the balance issues of Condimirage and not just nerf around them and even overnerf not op, active and high skill ceiling power builds as a spin off and dumb down the whole spec.

    There is nothing to wait for, the one dodge change is obviously from a logical point of view completely nonsense, doesn't solve the balance issues of Condimirage, quite the opposite, overnerfs not op playstyles (non condi/ hybrid) and even dumbs down the whole dodge and elite mechanic. And for that it doesn't matter at all if one playstyle (only the braindead one ofc) is still somehow playable from some/few players in higher ranks/ vs decent ppl.

    You can say that your experience of core engi was good. However I can argue against it. I could say that weapons and amulett are necessary for a good build. That is reasoning (deductive reasoning: amuletts and weapons are necessary to be concidered a good build. You dont have any. Therefore you dont have a good build.). Again: misha doing well is a fact and supports my claim + obviously i meant damage + survivability compared to other classes. (Do I really need to list you all the ports, stealths, evades, detargeting mechanics etc that condi mirage has? That can be concidered a "fact".) The logic being: If there are people who can play the class well and at high level. The class doesnt restrict you it is your personal skill. I admit that you will have an easier time on core neccro to reach that level in 2v2 but that is true for other classes than mesmer as well. So nothing special here for mesmer. That is rather a problem with core necro. You know that to be true, I wont make a spreadsheet for you, this isnt a scientific paper it is a forum.
    All I was saying is that condi mirage is viable in both 2v2 and 5v5. How is this a hot take? "Mesmer did not get deleted from the game. " All i ever said. Of course I would love it if mesmer had 15 builds /hyperbole, but sometimes you just dont get what you want. Just wait for the kitten next balance patch and calm down.

    **no that is just a claim based on another unproved claim, not an argument, not a fact, check a dictionary/lexicon for the difference between claim/assertion and argumentation/reasoning pls). **

    I feel like you are trolling me here. Didnt I literally say the sentence before that it was my experience. You are starting mix up what I was saying. I am pretty sure you are trolling me but anyway: That was my more my experienced not my argument. My arguement is the one above which I typed 5+ times now. You tried to counter it with: meh but there is only one option + misha is an almighty player who can do anything that nonone else can. Which I think are rather weak counter points. Currently in 2v2 there are some very oppressive classes and mesmer isnt the only one struggleing with it + 5v5 is the meassure for balance. About 5v5 we dont know that much. In 5v5 unranked my EXPERIENCE is that mirage is strong. (but that doesnt say much because its kitten unranked). Just wait for the kitten next balance patch and calm down. All I was ever saying is that mesmer still has a good spec to play and to have fun in the kitten game I am out.

    I give up, i argued against your claims just how you tried to argue against my claim about Engi, just that my claim is even more obvious wrong than yours, makes it easier for you to dismantle it without me going ingame and record some footage. That only a few player can make it work vs decent ppl is also more a prove for the opposite of your opinion you would do your claims a favor by not mentioning it actually xD.

    Anyway as said no one is asking for buffs, at least not to the one braindead playstyle (condi/hybrid) that is still playable for some extent by some ppl who don't care that they could have an easier life when just switching class, because the obviously wrong one dodge change didn't solve any issues of that passive and spammy playstyle. Mentioning all the active defense skills of Mirage they now are forced to stack incl toxic stuff like retargeting is also a joke when you compare it to all other classes and see that even Condimirage still has less dodges and less other active defense than all other classes, while also having less facetank sustain than most other classes in addition. For Powermirage it is even worse, it is clearly overnerfed and dumbed down for no raesons by that nonsense change, what you yet again just ignored. There is no need to wait for any balance changes because how much Mirage will be playable when using the lamest stuff it can find in terms of traitlines/ utilities etc. currently while all skillful builds are overnerfed doesn't matter for that logical conclusion. If you prefer a state where you only will see annoying to fight unhealthy and low skill ceiling Mirage builds instead turning the problematic condi/hybrid playstyles into a less noobfriendly and less toxic and less annoying to fight thing while keeping the already active and skillful playstyles at least semi viable than move on, you do great in cementing a braindead, skillless, toxic and still passive/spammy and annoying to fight Mirage meta still not that many ppl do make work atm.

    Claim what you want to claim about viability and dmg and survivability, that is up to you, but it is nothing more, just a claim, pretty meaningless. And then calling any ppl arguing against you as just too bad while you can't even prove yourself that you can make it work is the cake on top of your meaningless claims. I don't care about that personally as a player, i am not even a Mesmer main i enjoy my Necro as long as it last. I just look at balance changes in terms of do they make sense, do they lead into a more healthy balance with less braindead/ more skillful meta and are they fair compared to other classes or not. I do that as mulitclass player while trying to be as unbiased as possible during that and without just meaningless claims. That is why comments like yours just trigger me, no matter what class they are directed to, it is simple propaganda lvl and nothing more at this point. If you aren't entitled to add more than just meaningless claims to topics it is totally up to you but don't expect to convince anyone else except some Mesmer haters with it, who will like your claims and hope that the more they get repeated the more they become true.
    You guys are somehow funny in how unlogical you are. On one side you want to blame Mesmer player for playing braindead stuff and complain about how annoyig and unfair it feels to play vs the current condimeta, yet you vote for nerfs dumbing down the spec even more without solving any balance issues and try to cement a state where every skillful build is overnerfed, makes it impossible to play skillful builds on that class even for the best players in the game. Makes sense much xD

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @bravan.3876 thats what I did and included it into the post as edit 2.
    i just remember that there was GENERAL patch that reduced all cd of GS by about 20% ( what old trait used to do )
    and in pvp section they all got increses back to their old long values. but now the "nerfed" parts are missing so technically cds should be lowered, but they are not.
    only gs 5 got reduced.

    While gs5 cd reduction is the only one i could not find in the patch notes xD Weird. Btw Evasive Mirror was another dodge trait i forgot has ICD since some time. Still ICD on dodge traits to solve issues is the worst way to do it.

    icd for this trait is fine and dandy, what I dont like about it is that it triggers on nonprojectiles. making it super unreliable.
    and to top it off the only proj builds with burst proj are power and condi is the build that takes it and you end up with RNG unreliable reflect that reflects power damage as condi that scraches people most of the time. they should just rework this thing.

    That is exactly the point, the trait is proccing on dodge not on specific attacks and what you feel is then rng and something you cannot rly work with in a timed and tactical way because of that felt "rng" is caused by the ICD. That is exactly my point why i say ICDs on dodgetraits do not make sense, they turn every dodgetrait into something completely passive, kind of rng for everyone doesn't want to silently count down every seconds of the ICD during fights and make them totally unusable in an active and tactical way and that for both sides, the user and the opponent. Non of them can tactically work with them anymore. In fact an ICD does not rly solve any issue a dodge trait might have from bad desinged or too strong/ weak rewards on dodge, it makes the balance problem even worse and the trait more toxic and passive while deleting any possibility of counterplay and mindgames on both sides in a fight.

    Better just rework problematic dodge rewards or nerf/ buff them into the needed margin of the equilibrium to make them more active and less op at same time. Adding ICD is just a typical low effort and subpar way of balancing Anet likes to do to make stuff more clunky and less skillful for all sides in a fight.

    Did you even read what i wrote? Fyi I AGREE condi mirage is cancer. i would like power mirage to be good. However I only said mirage is still viable in both gamemodes. that is true. Nothing about the rest. I responded to the comment: "the current mesmer got removed from the game". That isnt ttrue. Thats all I said. You keep missing the point. Its astonishing tbh.

    Being playable by very few ppl on higher PvP lvl when even these few could just switch to any other class for the same result with even less effort and mostly even less skill requirement by having more impact on a match is not viability. Calling out how numerious Condimirage active defense tools are while every other class outdodges and outsustain even Condimirage stacking every toxic and noobcarry trait/skill (incl toxic and unhealthy, low skill ceiling/ floor retargeting kitten) they can find is not true either. Other playstyles like skillful power (not talking about useless/ impactless but noobcarry semibunker a la Vallun) meanwhile are butchered. So no you are wrong. Also saying just wait for nerfs to other classes is wrong, because as explained, it doesn't matter for the analysis of how bad the one dodge change is that there is one semi playable (what is not viable, it is just semi playable) build, that needs to stack all toxic and noobcarry kitten it can find.
    At least you agree to everyhting else i said xD Better than nothing i guess.

    viability=ability to work successfully. Since there are players who can make it work, it is viable --> the frame for success is there + 2v2 isnt the measure for balance + there are classes that are overperforming, that doesnt say anything about the power level of mirage, because other classes struggle with these classes the same way. Mirage might be not meta, not the optimal pick, not the easiest class to succeed with. That however doesnt mean it isnt viable. It certainly is still a strong pick for both unranked 5v5 and 2v2.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 you wouldnt know what viable means even if it hit you over the head mate

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 you wouldnt know what viable means even if it hit you over the head mate

    I only quoted the definition of the word but ok

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2020

    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Ghostof Luzifer.6159 you wouldnt know what viable means even if it hit you over the head mate

    I only quoted the definition of the word but ok

    That is a general definition, it is more or less just the minimum definition of viable what isn't rly complete and fitting for gaming. In gaming viable has a bit different meaning from what i know. Viable means it can compete in terms of impactfulness/ effectiveness with other meta builds and that with a comparable amount of skill and effort requirement. What simply is not the case atm.
    But sure if you define viable as simple "able to exist" and being semiplayable while it would make more sense to just switch the class to have the same or even more reward/ impact on matches with way less effort/ skill requirement, then you are right. Just that this not rly gaming orientated definition is not a good base to decide if a class is balanced well or not, if it is in a good state/ spot ingame or not. It is only good to use if you want to make a class look/sound stronger than it actually is.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • JTGuevara.9018JTGuevara.9018 Member ✭✭✭

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

    The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

    Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

    I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

    What in the blazes?...Try a condi mirage! They're still pretty formidable, especially in Hall of the MIsts.

  • ZeteCommander.4937ZeteCommander.4937 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2020

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @JTGuevara.9018 said:
    Bwahahah!!...I just...can't with this community sometimes...

    The more I play this game, the more I stay from the forums. I swear, people are never satisfied. This update is one of the BEST things to come out of pvp, it has brought a lot of people back. Sure, there are some problematic builds still out there, but there are few. However, the overall game feels a lot cleaner. Is it ideal? Is it perfect? No! But is it a step in the right direction? kitten straight! This is what people collectively asked for and now it's here.

    Yeeahh...I prefer THIS to the post-HoT era, any day of the week.

    I can be sure you don't play mesmer.It's no exaggeration to say that the current mesmer has been removed from the game.

    What in the blazes?...Try a condi mirage! They're still pretty formidable, especially in Hall of the MIsts.

    Why don't I choose thieves? they better than mirage in every way.Even the core mesmer is better than mirage.The negative effect of choice mirage is even higher than that of choice blank

  • Kickpuncher.8109Kickpuncher.8109 Member ✭✭✭

    New 'balance patch' doesn't even address down state damage (which wasn't balanced in accordance with the whole 'lowering of power damage' nerf kitten balance) or rallying reviving cheese.

    Play your kitten game balance team. What a joke to wait 2 weeks for.

  • Kickpuncher.8109Kickpuncher.8109 Member ✭✭✭

    Daily reminder to play your game ANET if you want to be educated on the matter in which you are trying to manipulate.

  • Kickpuncher.8109Kickpuncher.8109 Member ✭✭✭

    Daily reminder to play your game ANET if you want to be educated on the matter in which you are trying to manipulate.

  • @Kickpuncher.8109 said:
    Cause it sure feels like ANET balance team is solely going off of metrics and numbers and not playing their own game.

    They dont have balance team dude

  • Kickpuncher.8109Kickpuncher.8109 Member ✭✭✭

    Play your kitten game Anet