Long Bow vs. Rifle

[Mystic Moon Maiden.3786]

Anet must be smoking crack in Seattle. In what universe does a long bow shoot further than a rifle? Only in the one they created. Engineers just keep getting the shaft and Anet does zip about OP long bow and super OP Soulbeast. Broken shit like this is what makes people not want to play the game. Anet is driving away their own player base by not being in touch with the reality of what is truly happening.

[Yasai.3549]

Technically Engi rifle works more like a shotgun.

I want Engi rifle to be an actual shotgun and do 5k damage per shot at point blank kappa.

And their version of Rapid Fire is Blunderbuss that can do 10k+ at point blank.

Let me walk up in stealth, and then surprise jump with Rifle 5 and 3.

Boom boom boom.

[Atticus.7194]

@Mystic Moon Maiden.3786 said:Anet must be smoking crack in Seattle. In what universe does a long bow shoot further than a rifle? Only in the one they created. Engineers just keep getting the shaft and Anet does zip about OP long bow and super OP Soulbeast. Broken kitten like this is what makes people not want to play the game. Anet is driving away their own player base by not being in touch with the reality of what is truly happening.

Um, ArenaNet just did quite a lot about the super OP soulbeast build (finally) last patch.

Also my anthropomorphic talking cat with horns glowing eyes and magical future tech armor demands realism.

[Atticus.7194]

delete please

[Vagrant.7206]

@"Mystic Moon Maiden.3786" said:Anet must be smoking crack in Seattle. In what universe does a long bow shoot further than a rifle? Only in the one they created. Engineers just keep getting the shaft and Anet does zip about OP long bow and super OP Soulbeast. Broken kitten like this is what makes people not want to play the game. Anet is driving away their own player base by not being in touch with the reality of what is truly happening.

@"Yasai.3549" said:Technically Engi rifle works more like a shotgun.

I want Engi rifle to be an actual shotgun and do 5k damage per shot at point blank kappa.

And their version of Rapid Fire is Blunderbuss that can do 10k+ at point blank.

Let me walk up in stealth, and then surprise jump with Rifle 5 and 3.

Boom boom boom.

https://youtu.be/h_c3iQImXZg?t=172

(3 mins mark)

[Iozeph.5617]

@Mystic Moon Maiden.3786 said:Anet is driving away their own player base by not being in touch with the reality of what is truly happening.

No. They're just driving away Engineers -which is already such a small part of the player base that it verges on becoming a paradox.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Iozeph.5617 said:

@"Mystic Moon Maiden.3786" said:Anet is driving away their own player base by not being in touch with the reality of what is truly happening.

No. They're just driving away Engineers -which is already such a small part of the player base that it verges on becoming a paradox.

Are they even driving away engineers in this particular area? The so called "rifle" has always been a shotgun that in no way has ever competed with the actual long range weapons of other classes.

[ILoveMonotony.1479]

Right now ANet is driving me back. ?

[GoldenPants.1870]

@Mystic Moon Maiden.3786 said:Anet must be smoking crack in Seattle. In what universe does a long bow shoot further than a rifle? Only in the one they created. Engineers just keep getting the shaft and Anet does zip about OP long bow and super OP Soulbeast. Broken kitten like this is what makes people not want to play the game. Anet is driving away their own player base by not being in touch with the reality of what is truly happening.

I mean... basically one projectile block negates their whole dmg, which is Rapid Fire, the only other big damage they have is Greatsword 2 + Stomp from their melded ability... sooo...

[Aracz.4702]

If we compare engineer rifle to real firearm, it would be probably semi automatic shotgun using different types of ammunition. While using slugs (autoattack, overcharged Shot), it should have effective range (arrow/bullet hit the target at which you are aiming and excludes it from the fight) comparable to longbows. Sometimes longer, sometimes shorter - depending of which bow and shotgun you are comparing. In combat, they would ususally be used at distances like 150 metersSome sources states that AA-12 automatic shotgun have effective range of 100 meters with special amunition, and maximum of 200 m. ~ and I can't tell if it's maximum killing range, or maximum range on which bullet still have enough power to deal a lot of damage, but isn't accurate . Some longbows have effective range of... 200 meters, but some can shoot even further - arrow just won't be lethal and as accurate. I suppose that both, AA-12 special ammunition and longbow arrow would cause simmilar damage at range of 150 m.Main difference should be that long bow can't shoot at long ranges as fast and as easy as shotgun, because you have to use a lot of your strenght to use all the power of the bow and it's harder to aim - recruit soldier should be able to hit a target at 150 meters easilly with shotgun, longbow user would need a years of practice to hit a target at that range, but master would be able to kill a target in further ranges.And we have to remember that in Tyria we have #Magic and we can use it to explain why rangers can use longbow to rapid fire.In terms of range, there is nothing to fix. If we want to go into more realism, the bow should have a longer cast time them the target is further away. But again, we have magic, and technology is still in development. Lore vise, we can assume that rangers can shoot with they longbows at longer distances than engineers with regular quality shotguns.

[Iozeph.5617]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Iozeph.5617 said:

@"Mystic Moon Maiden.3786" said:Anet is driving away their own player base by not being in touch with the reality of what is truly happening.

No. They're just driving away Engineers -which is already such a small part of the player base that it verges on becoming a paradox.

Are they even driving away engineers in this particular area? The so called "rifle" has always been a shotgun that in no way has ever competed with the actual long range weapons of other classes.

I don't know about always. There was actually a window where rifle was more of a rifle with an added bag of tricks and actually comparable to other ranged weapons. It took while for longbow to be given fifteen hundred range outside of traiting for it. For that window most ranged based professions were capped between nine hundred and twelve hundred units and this was rather good balance wise.

For a time it was also possible to increase the base fire rate of rifle skills by traiting for it(by about ten percent I believe). I believe it was a major master trait though it's been a while and the name escapes me. But it was possible to further enhance that with quickness from elixir U to have a sort of workaround version of the Warrior rifle skill Volley. This was fun times in spite of projectile hate because you'd shoot away their shields/barriers with autos then hit U and burst them down rather well with it. Combine that with the ability to select the target furthest away and have a degree of organic piercing to our shots and at least for a while rifle was actually in a pretty good place.

But that was back when there was still a greater level of build diversity- at least in my opinion. Not that it even matters because it didn't last long. I personally would love to have that trait back, because at least for that time the firearms tree actually seemed to be about enhancing our base weapons(firearms.) instead of shoehorning us completely into kits.

Of course I could be talking complete rubbish and this is just another example of the Mandela effect in action. Who knows? /shrug

[Nilkemia.8507]

The engineer rifle is in need of a rework. It's stuck with an identity crisis between being a long range weapon with its first two skills and being up close with the latter 3, and it doesn't work well at either, since the long range skills are negligible damage wise, and engineers are not meant to be up close and personal, despite the two elite specs forcing them to be close to do anything effective. And the worst of it is, we haven't gotten any good weapons since the hammer, which comes with the handicap of being up close since kits are barely useful anymore.

[Ivantreil.3092]

@Nilkemia.8507 said:The engineer rifle is in need of a rework. It's stuck with an identity crisis between being a long range weapon with its first two skills and being up close with the latter 3, and it doesn't work well at either, since the long range skills are negligible damage wise, and engineers are not meant to be up close and personal, despite the two elite specs forcing them to be close to do anything effective. And the worst of it is, we haven't gotten any good weapons since the hammer, which comes with the handicap of being up close since kits are barely useful anymore.

To be fair, Holo mitigates the downsides of being at melee range because it has a good frontline kit of CC and stability, showing that it's possible to be in the frontline, BUT also showing it's only possible to be in frontline as an Engi if your kit is obnoxiously spammable, something that the other professions are asking to be nerfed.

With that said, i heavily doubt Rifle will receive any QoL attention any time soon, Holo nerfs seem to be on the horizon, and we have other bigger issues to fix like having a respectable condi build in PvP of Support build for PvE.

A buff to the rifle AA would be at best what would be receiving.

[Baltzenger.2467]

I've always felt that GW2's engineer is not engi from team fortress 2, it's every TF2 class on one.

Where is my machine gun?

[Prinzsecond.4863]

The GW universe is just not that advanced in firearms-Technology to compete with centuries of development in longbows, so for me it makes sense that the longbow can shoot 1500 while a usual rifle only hits up to 1200 and only when making complete Focus on it (deadeye - kneel) you can go up to the 1500.

[Iozeph.5617]

@Prinzsecond.4863 said:The GW universe is just not that advanced in firearms-Technology to compete with centuries of development in longbows, so for me it makes sense that the longbow can shoot 1500 while a usual rifle only hits up to 1200 and only when making complete Focus on it (deadeye - kneel) you can go up to the 1500.

What!? Both arrows and bullets follow a parabolic trajectory when fired. It's possible, even with crude black powder, to put more energy behind a bullet- even a smoothbore musket than with a self bow, or the sorts of longbows used by the Welsh, or the composite bows used by the Mongols. The most accurate shooting with bows was done nearly point blank in the most famous English battles. Volley fire was wasteful. And apart from hitting horses most heavily-armoured knights were impervious to the arrows. It took firearms to truly change the battlefield.

Firearms were the great equaliser because they didn't require as much training, ammunition didn't require a guild system to manufacture it and a reasonable amount of it coudl be carrier in horns and pouches by every man so armed. But forget all that.

You've done the tequatl the sunless fight, right? We have giant lasers. We have mecha. We have power suits. We have bombs, and guided missile turrets and airships and a bloody stargate network. Play the personal story parts in Orr and you get to do one of the best missions in this game where you even halo drop at the controls of a freaking super robot! Chemically propelled projectile weapons are far down on the list of the sorts of high technology available in this setting.

[Prinzsecond.4863]

@Iozeph.5617 said:

You've done the tequatl the sunless fight, right? We have giant lasers. We have mecha. We have power suits. We have bombs, and guided missile turrets and airships and a bloody stargate network. Play the personal story parts in Orr and you get to do one of the best missions in this game where you even halo drop at the controls of a freaking super robot! Chemically propelled projectile weapons are far down on the list of the sorts of high technology available in this setting.

Absolutely right! And there are a lot Floating crystals around, but still no one invented the hoverboard yet .

After some Googling, I think rifles in earlier times had a similar range as bows 1000years before. But I have the theory, that the engineer is also busy with keeping his turrets, Gyros, alchemical flasks etc. in good shape while a ranger can Focus on his marksmanship with bows all this time, aside from a Little bit of pet-taming. So the rifle is just in a disadvantage here.

Regarding your energy argumet: the issue is probably that the black powder does not Transfer all its explosive energy to the bullet while an arrow has really almost all of the energy from the pull.

And don't Forget that only the mighty ASURA have lasers, mecha, stargates and power suits. So only asura engineers should be able to get that Technology. Which would make them just overpowered over all other engineers.Ok Charr also have some slight rough Technology with their copters and vehicles... but charr are just too peaceful to invest time in their weapons :P

[Yannir.4132]

@Iozeph.5617 said:Firearms were the great equaliser because they didn't require as much training, ammunition didn't require a guild system to manufacture it and a reasonable amount of it coudl be carrier in horns and pouches by every man so armed. But forget all that.

Fantasy games are rife with inaccuracies when compared to history. Shooting a warbow requires a great deal of strength, a rifle requires about none of that which is why it was much much easier to equip soldiers with rifles.

But in this case it actually kinda makes sense, magic can compensate for the lack of strength. AKA you increase your strength magically to shoot arrows further with a larger bow. Or rather, a larger yield strength.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Yannir.4132" said:But in this case it actually kinda makes sense, magic can compensate for the lack of strength. AKA you increase your strength magically to shoot arrows further with a larger bow. Or rather, a larger yield strength.Which kind of renders the argument moot, since might would make the longbow superior to a shotgun that cant be "modified" for more power and range. You got the strength of 25 men after all lol.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Baltzenger.2467 said:I've always felt that GW2's engineer is not engi from team fortress 2, it's every TF2 class on one.

Where is my machine gun?

It's a mashup of engineer, soldier, demoman, pyro, and medic. I don't think they mixed in heavy, scout, sniper, or spy.

[Iozeph.5617]

@Prinzsecond.4863 said:

@Iozeph.5617 said:

You've done the tequatl the sunless fight, right? We have giant lasers. We have mecha. We have power suits. We have bombs, and guided missile turrets and airships and a bloody stargate network. Play the personal story parts in Orr and you get to do one of the best missions in this game where you even halo drop at the controls of a freaking super robot! Chemically propelled projectile weapons are far down on the list of the sorts of high technology available in this setting.

Absolutely right! And there are a lot Floating crystals around, but still no one invented the hoverboard yet

.

After some Googling, I think rifles in earlier times had a similar range as bows 1000years before. But I have the theory, that the engineer is also busy with keeping his turrets, Gyros, alchemical flasks etc. in good shape while a ranger can Focus on his marksmanship with bows all this time, aside from a Little bit of pet-taming. So the rifle is just in a disadvantage here.

Regarding your energy argumet: the issue is probably that the black powder does not Transfer all its explosive energy to the bullet while an arrow has really almost all of the energy from the pull.

And don't Forget that only the mighty ASURA have lasers, mecha, stargates and power suits. So only asura engineers should be able to get that Technology. Which would make them just overpowered over all other engineers.Ok Charr also have some slight rough Technology with their copters and vehicles... but charr are just too peaceful to invest time in their weapons :P

Actually they did- it's the forged backpack glider combo and it's sometimes available in the black lion gem store. It's similar to the glider used by the green goblin in the old spider-man comics and films.

As far as energy- no.

The last black powder rifle used in war - the Fusil Gras mle 1874, which used the 386 grain 11mmR Gras cartridge, averaged a muzzle velocity of about 1500 feet per second with a loss of about a hundred feet per second at around the one hundred foot mark. For the sake of argument, the best/fastest bow on the market today- the Lawless, by Obsession bows, does rated 370 IBO feet per second shooting a 325 grain arrow at about 338 feet per second(about sixty five pound draw). Over a comparable distance of say -one hundred feet - the arrow is going to suffer about 15 or so inches -give or take- of drop. The bullet's going to drop about one to three inches. If we make a change to smokeless powders let's just take, at random, the M1 Garand, using the 7.62x63 round 165 grain which had a muzzle velocity of 2800 feet per second at this comparable distance there is next to no drop. The Garand had an eight shot clip and with gas powered action would shoot as quickly as you could pull the trigger. That round will go through an engine block and it's a cartridge introduced in 1906.

Today we have rifled 12 gauge shotgun slugs which average between 1500 and 1900 feet per second which are capable of four inch groupings at around one hundred yards. There are automatic shotguns.

Powder wins. Period.

Engineers don't have to worry about turrets because they're useless, fire and forget weapons now. So are gyros. So are gadgets. And elixirs are just combat drugs. The nazis had Pervitin amphetamines, the allies had Benzedrine. Both allowed a soldier to fight for days without sleep.

Rangers have a pet and spirits and traps to manage- most of which are just as arguably useless -not that any of this matters because we're discussing weapons.

But as far as the Charr go it's not slight, rough technology. Go back and take a second look at the heart of the Black Citadel. It's a death star and they used it to kill their gods. Just saying. The Charr are the ones in this universe driving the less-magical side of technology -making tanks and lighter-armoured vehicles mounting canons. Less magical doesn't mean it's less effective.

Back to weapons and inconsistencies - Engineers even have the mortar kit, which is little more than a fantasy version of an M-79 grenade launcher. It reaches fifteen hundred range, has comparable if not slightly better damage than our rifle's auto, and is a smooth bore weapon as compared to a rifle.

Hell, even the ranger's main hand axe does better damage than our rifle and at at nine hundred units(for a thrown weapon), bounces between targets and stacks might for the ranger while doing it. And people are complaining/worrying about rifle somehow becoming overpowered?

Something wrong with our rifles not having around ten percent better damage or shot speed(at least) and a base of fifteen hundred range to keep them competitive. There just is. Nothing's going to convince me otherwise. Sorry.

[Prinzsecond.4863]

@Iozeph.5617 said:

As far as energy- no.

The last black powder rifle used in war - the Fusil Gras mle 1874......Today we have rifled 12 gauge shotgun slugs which average between 1500 and 1900 feet per second which are capable of four inch groupings at around one hundred yards. There are automatic shotguns.

Powder wins. Period.

but 1874 is much too new to compare, when I look at my engis ol'shotgun you should rather look out for rifles around 1700 .

Engineers don't have to worry about turrets because they're useless, fire and forget weapons now. So are gyros. So are gadgets. And elixirs are just combat drugs. The kitten had Pervitin amphetamines, the allies had Benzedrine. Both allowed a soldier to fight for days without sleep.

Sure turrets are useless, buuuut they require a lot of maintenance, having always enough ammo, oil movable parts, clean everything after a fight etc. that takes Ages! Any concerning Gyros: you do not just Need 1 bulwark gyro, you Need at least 100 of them because they self-destroy during a fight..... you can see the amount of time needed to keep that up right? compare this with a ranger... pha, he can hone his skills with the longbow and Train his upper Body for a better range.

Okok, you are ofc absolutely right, I just have fun playing the oposite side. However, as I think all classes are quite balanced in Terms of competition (WvW/PvP), I don't think that rifle skills should be changed.

[Iozeph.5617]

The pennsylvania long rifle too late for you? Circa 1720-1792 with a muzzle velocity between twelve and nearly two thousand feet per second. It was prone to fouling over extended use but the point was accuracy and it had an effective range between two to six hundred feet. Every weapon has its drawback - bows, wooden in particular -and especially composite bows of horn, sinew, and hide glue- are susceptible to humidity and changes in temperature.

The bow is limited by its draw weight -the tension stored in its limbs at full draw- and by the draw length -its fitment to the length of the user's arms. There's a lifetime of shooting to build form and that will, over time, build strength. And while yes there are archers capable of using long bows with nearly two hundred pound draws these weapons aren't practical for extended, repeated use because they require a particular draw style that involves most of the body to achieve. Is it possible to shoot them with accuracy? Yes. Is it possible to shoot them over the course of a battle? Yes, but if you aren't one of these people good luck coming out the other side without being crippled in some way. There's a reason why most able-bodied men of those times were required by law to practise the bow from an early age. But seeing's easier-

https://youtu.be/0-2KLuAH4GY

This isn't being done on the run. This isn't being done Legolas style. Yes, they shot the video to prove a point, but they proved some other points whether they intended to or not. Just how demanding a weapon the longbow is for one. It's why the bow, awesome as it was, was put aside in favour of the crossbow and eventually the musket.

As for profession balance. I don't believe it at all. Engineer is still one of the most easily-kited professions. Our base weapons suffer from projectile hate, at least three of our kits do, the others require us to be within melee range where most of our abilities don't provide evade frames to supplement our dodges as many other classes have. We require elixir use either for short-lived survivability or escape and this goes for sneak gyro as well. Savvy players will be able to follow us, or they'll leave and refuse us the ability to reset the fight. Our ability to reveal stealth players is poor. One meh trait, a belt skill from a gadget which is otherwise a waste of a bar slot, and an elite belt skill that for all intents and purposes no longer exists because scrapper took a huge hit by losing access to sneak gyro's belt skill. Beyond that - with the exception of the Holosmith- we lack the sort of offencive punch needed to decisively sway a fight in our favour unless our opponents are either AFK, pathologically stupid, or they mess up in some way.

As we currently stand two thirds of our profession is balanced just right to be everybody else's tomatoe tin- while the other third(Holo) has every mouth breather in the pvp forums begging for it to be a trifecta, and that's not right.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@GoldenPants.1870 said:

@Mystic Moon Maiden.3786 said:Anet must be smoking crack in Seattle. In what universe does a long bow shoot further than a rifle? Only in the one they created. Engineers just keep getting the shaft and Anet does zip about OP long bow and super OP Soulbeast. Broken kitten like this is what makes people not want to play the game. Anet is driving away their own player base by not being in touch with the reality of what is truly happening.

I mean... basically one projectile block negates their whole dmg, which is Rapid Fire, the only other big damage they have is Greatsword 2 + Stomp from their melded ability... sooo...

They also have ways to make their attacks unblockable....sooo....

[GoldenPants.1870]

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@GoldenPants.1870 said:

@Mystic Moon Maiden.3786 said:Anet must be smoking crack in Seattle. In what universe does a long bow shoot further than a rifle? Only in the one they created. Engineers just keep getting the shaft and Anet does zip about OP long bow and super OP Soulbeast. Broken kitten like this is what makes people not want to play the game. Anet is driving away their own player base by not being in touch with the reality of what is truly happening.

I mean... basically one projectile block negates their whole dmg, which is Rapid Fire, the only other big damage they have is Greatsword 2 + Stomp from their melded ability... sooo...

They also have ways to make their attacks unblockable....sooo....

That's only effective against things like warrior block that blocks attacks, not for example, Wall of Reflection, which yeets(or reflects) the projectile, doesn't matter if it unblockable or not. Same with things like Scrappers field, which deletes projectiles upon contact.