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Things that 100% make WvW unfun atm


Riba.3271

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@"Timelord.8190" said:WvW went downhill with HoT, no doubt. The WvW team is clueless.

I just want to remove all the unbalanced defender's advantage garbage they added with HoT and the game would be much better. Keep aura buff and bloodlust buff. It's a very bad game design which leads to stale boring scenarios where people don't even try taking keeps anymore. Roaming is now pretty much dead because of all the sensor towers and mounts that make the enemy blob able to react faster and avoid fights.

I have NO idea when you are actually playing, but yeah..... that's not true. Taking keeps is attempted or happens all the time. I spent like an hour and half the other night defending a keep on an enemy bl that we managed to t3 up AND was being hit from the other two servers. And we fought in it with multiple walls down, no supply coming in. And held it for a long time until the multiple guilds defending just gave up.

So yeah, for "No one" trying to take keeps anymore, you might want to get your facts straight.

Also, roaming isn't dead because of sensor towers and mounts. Roaming still happens even with those things. But it's seen as less necessary because every server ignores the towers until they are t3 or have been claimed long enough to HAVE a watchtower tactic placed in it to allow a quick response. If you deal with the problem of the tower being claimed long enough, you deal with quick response.

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@coro.3176 said:somewhat agree, but I'd argue conditions would be fine in group pvp now. They were a problem once, but that's because it was possible to put absurd stacks on one player and then epidemic them to everyone. That is not nearly as easy as it used to be. Currently, the vast majority of specs in the game can't play in large-scale wvw. No conditions, no projectiles, no single-target damage, and only a select few supports. That's way too narrow.Conditions, by their nature are very problematic to balance per both scale and depth at the same time. That's why they're often a hot potato in WvW (that always seems to be best balanced around the 5-10 scale while the scales outside of that are more common). I do also somewhat agree but I think that is the point contest between us. I consider conditions okay-ish balanced now but we're talking about doing things that would make them more powerful and especially more powerful in a world of overblown balance-counterbalance. So I am more sceptical to how it could run away while I am less of a subscriber to the idea that there is no way to approach larger scale gameplay with conditions, projectiles, focus damage or supports.

It's the same thing there, I see where you come from with regards to the meta and niches but the definition of meta is a topic for discussion itself. I've always been more of a player that concern myself with whether something can have a role or not in a meta and with that I've always enjoyed playing things that pokes at those fringes. Up until the recent changes it has certainly been possible to eg., build condition hybridity into those support classes, found ways to use projectiles and single-target damage and so on. So I've rarely concerned myself very much with the difference between, say, a Staff Weaver and a Scourge in the meta as the difference between that Staff Weaver and a Ranger that always get spit on.

The same goes for support, where as I mentioned above, I've seen Eles and Mesmers maintain roles in squads even if they've not been fully in the meta. They've also done that while having other second-tier options. Again, it's not like they're as far off as a Druid that is simply regarded and treated as garbage. Does that mean we should never challenge the idea of what is meta? That FB and Scrapper should always be slightly better than Tempest or Mesmer? No, not necessarily but balance is never a question of perfection or rotation and always a question of tolerable differences. The big problems that appear are rather when things fall way too far from the meta. It's the same thing I'm pointing to the above post as well, I am making some remarks about the Engineer here because if it keeps being given the Ranger treatment it will soon have nothing left, nevermind meta, it won't even have functional niche roles and that is an actual problem as opposed to the back-and-forth over what has the broadest appeal and recognition (what is meta, or what meta is). As long as there are tolerable differences, creative players will find ways to use off-meta appeal and sometimes even to change the meta.

So in summary, yes, in the greater balance you are right that the envelopes of certain things are too narrow. At the same most of those things do at least have niche appeal, even at the 50-man scale so the envelope is large enough to be creative with and to maintain roles in a squad if wanted. The real problems exist when it becomes difficult to be creative with them or when you can't play with other people or fit into the fringes of the norms or when they shape tactics or allround behaviour in conservative ways (even if that, like meta, is also a question of player experience and behaviour).

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  1. I agree but the biggest advantage at the moment is they run with stealth into their own keep and bomb the enemy zerg very hard to counter without it , it is just hard and it was always were hard to conquer an T3 enemy keep.
  2. I'm not sure what do you want to say here FB has one of the longest cooldown on skills some book 3 has a CD over a minute while my ELe elements can change in 5-10 sec. Scourges got also nerfed the great advantage of it is only he can hit some many at the same time and can corrupt boons at the start the built was a condi spammer .

On the the DPS side nearly all DPS build run now full berserker this is why we have more healers now in the party. This also a result of Arena.NET nerfing high risk -high gain builts like staff ELE the old Tempest would rip apart those full beserker DPS built even with healer support this was the reason everyone DPS built did run with celestial to out stain them for a few seconds which is enough to kill them. I hear often that we have more DPS in PvP/wvw then in the past this is not entirely true. We have more DPS through that everyone running on berserker while Arena.NET did nerf a lot the overall DPS in the game. True it has also to do with how easy access you have to you DPS skills and if Arena.NET did give this 'one' this skills too much dmg or range for its class

e.g now (max DPS with beserker stats )Staff Tempest 22k and Staff Weaver around 30k. Tempest pre Pof 38-40K dps, start with HoT 60k DPS, Staff Weaver with start of PoF 44k.

Also in general the main tactic used by (better) guild is now stealth bombs from 1200 range by Revs at least in the EU is that so. Like I said somewhere else it is better then the brain dead pain train meta before that but open field for an public zerg impossible to counter worse even in an enemy keep. Also the guilds turned WvW basically into GvG for them the part of siege war or conquest war is dead I don't like that either.

  1. I can only agree we have no enemy zerg on the map atm if the developers/admin don't believe it they can look at the current much up tomorrow(Elona).I don't know why this is so possible because this map has to many places to hide and run around maybe the people feel lost on this map . On the other side as red on EBG we have the most asymmetric map with 2 tower and 1 champ easy to defend while the other champ is the worst champ on the whole map in conclusion the other offensive tower never get defended and built up.

  2. No I find it nice but I have also the idea that tome tactic scale with the rang of the object . In this case the range for watchtower would be on T1 smaller on T2 the same and on T3 even bigger. The idea was also giving tactic a purpose like : Armored Dolyaks, Auto Turrets. In theory you could also do that for Presence of the Keep and Minor Supply Drop.

On the other hand I would give champs a T2 tactic register and moving the dolyaks and Minor Supply Drop and Chilling Fog there while in T1 would still be the rest including Sabotage Depot. Okay It would be just that Sabotage Depot and Dune Roller ( I know for guild that loves to make only GvG and PPK this sounds like an evil master plan)

5.They are good because they allow you to come into a T3 keep otherwise you wouldn't be able to go through the wall /destroy it.

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Anyway, I'm only running my mouth now because I enjoy this rare chance at some higher-quality discussion here on these forums. Those last two posts were just me responding and musing to what you guys said and not really something I wanted to say, haha. I need to cut to the chase. Much of these reasons both of you guys (Coro and Threater) bring up is the reason I initially talked about strategy and plans around the modes and splits. That's the important, higher-order, bit in my oppinion. The other things we can talk about back and forth but they exist on a lower order plane of less importance and can be adressed from abvove instead if we're talking about dealing with things that cause issues in WvW and how to adress them. Does that make sense?

If ArenaNet choose go a route of a larger overhaul where balance is kept in mind over PvP modes they can use things like stats to keep things in check. That means not only a way to adress things like Minstrel but also othe types of stats that have scaling issues (and often do not exist in sPvP) like Cele, Diviner's, Trailblazers and so on. Then their only concern when balancing traits is scalability. Even if they would keep sPvP as the focal point for balance details, it would likely keep WvW decent enough with just some concern to how changes would scale.

If they go a route of splitting balance into an open world pair they can keep a larger factor in things like gear and stats to find other ways to balance the extremes that appear to keep things in check. That is possible thanks to how open world PvE does not really have any balance concerns. In such a pair WvW could be the focal point for balance concerns regarding traits and they could do things like adressing numbers in attacks and capping their scaling. They could, for example, then do things like returning to more of an old-school approach for conditions (like Confusion not ticking like it does) or do things like capping stacks in balance with player health pools - something that can't be done in situations where you need to push the boundaries of damage.

I've been a proponent of the latter for a really long time. In all honesty, I would even prefer a scenario where they gave less attention to the instanced game modes and found ways to redesign and rebalance them as whole to be more in line with the content in the open world modes (ie., Scrapping raids as they exist in favour of perhaps more Onyxia-type of raid content with singular larger scale enounters that would be more in line with open world boss content and thus be closer in balance). However, barring that, I have always seen Open World PvE and WvW as a good pair for balance concerns. It is only lately that I have come regard a PvP-pair as at least a positive option, albeit a lesser option.

The worst thing they can do is continue the mess that they are in, with a balance team that possibly is, or isn't, part of a competetive team, that mostly seems to balance around sPvP and "everything else" where the focal point of everything else is raids (but also without consistency in that). That is clearly the worst option and not a proper strategy in how to adress balance going forward.

I believe that is what they need to change first, after that they can properly adress the overhauls that are needed and first after that do I see much point in talking about the best ways to adress our concerns.

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Maybe stats can be scaled with tier level of a structure, kind of like how bloodlust works.

Balance is garbage, has been garbage for a long time, will continue to be garbage.

Desert map was poorly designed from the start, its fatal flaw is in the layout of objectives which provide no sense of progression whatsoever therefore discouraging fights and are basically only there to provide points.

Watchtower is fine

Shield generator is fine, its needed to counter the ac spam that has plagued WvW for years. It useful for both attackers and defenders, so no issue here. If anything it can sometimes benefit attackers more than defenders.

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@"X T D.6458" said:

  1. Watchtower is fine
  2. Shield generator is fine, its needed to counter the ac spam that has plagued WvW for years. It useful for both attackers and defenders, so no issue here. If anything it can sometimes benefit attackers more than defenders.
  3. Watchtower removed whole concept of capping upgraded objectives for fights if group is relatively small (below 15 people). Unfortunately not many people are braindamaged enough to care about just points without fights. As a BG member surely you know that the moment enemy shows itself within the watchtower, 15 white knights will show up to defend. There is nothing inbetween, either you sneak the objective or you get farmed. This includes campfights (smaller groups) within lot of EB camps. The whole concept of watchtower being active while objective is not even contested is just disgusting.
  4. Shield generator is not needed to counter acs anymore, acs have internal cooldown now on how often they can hit a target. Simple protection and low healing is capable of keeping you alive under AC fire. Anyone who played through non-shieldgen pre/post HoT meta knows that you could very well sustain through acs then, and now it is even easier with firebrands/scrappers and ac nerfs.Also shield gen is obviously too strong for the attacker considering it blocks any siege. Build 4 of them, spread them around and defender needs whooping 4 disablers and mountain of luck to get through to the rams/golems/catas that will melt the gate/wall within a minute. Commander should have to use his brain by countering ACs with ballistas, meteor showers and omegas (action camera still allows you to hit acs on walls), not always use same "shield gens protect us from all siege" strat.

I am kinda fine with gens reducing damage from ACs but any other siege is too much... When is the last time anyone built a ballista to take a keep.. Theres not even a point building a ballista to kill acs if the defender has a shield gen on the wall, haha..

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@XenesisII.1540 said:

Nerf of watchtower would bring back roamers vs scouts regarding taking and defending camps. Also solo/duo roamers can just have fun on discord rather than being on their toes all the time when they take wrong step to a sentry/tower and get zerged down by 15 people waiting for commander. I can understand that people that play the game everyday can pay attention to likes of watchtower everytime but majority of WvW community didn't use to be like that. They play occassionally.

Epic small fights near Ogrewatch, langor would be back. And well 1 random clueless dude wouldn't be able to ruin peoples plans of taking something by walking into the watchtower. Not to mention PPT and PvE groups would play more WvW giving more fights. They don't have to do the same sneak catas for Sunnyhill due to watchtower everytime walking all the way around but they can be creative and free. Not to mention even if you outsmart the enemy at sunnyhill with sneaky catas, one wrong step and they will make it in time to defend the tower due to red dots despite being oblivious of you being there until you took the wall down.

There are lot of upsides to watchtower change that will bring WvW more alive from the gutter state it is in atm.

Dude, that sounds more like a pay attention to the map and your surroundings problem, who gets zerged down by 15 at a sentry?. Taking out watch tower out (which takes an hour to even install do you even notice a change for people fighting around those towers in that hour?), isn't going to solve the roaming problem. Not with mounts around and not with most players too scared to even roam or duo on their on own these days because of some of the broken specs and game play out there, which affect you the entire time in wvw, not just around towers. Plenty of small fights still happen around camps, which is actually better so you don't have people constantly going in and out of towers, that gets pretty annoying.

It's only a problem when you want to actually take the tower, not if you're looking for a fight cause most times you'd want to be scene or scouted to get people to come to you, unless you're chicken and just looking to gank pve people going for their nodes.

Okay imagine eb with watchtowers everywhere except anza. Not pretty infrequent event is it? Now remove roaming from all those areas and the camps they cover.Boom, you're left with SM (around which you can't roam without getting jumped on by 5 people), Umberglade (for red), Golanta (for blue) and Speldan (for green). Not much of space. And roaming is supposed to be free.

Remove all those watchtowers. Boom, you have 3 times more area and 2 times more camps to capture. Even some towers you can threaten with your small roaming party are available again. Simple. Roaming is free again.

Also removing watchtowers means there will be more actual scouts and campdefenders again. Some of which will be bloodthirsty and desperate for their camps and dollies. Now I imagine you think all of them are bad the game but unfortunately not all..

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There is always a meta stat. If you removed minstrels, people would just go nomads/concentration food. Even if you removed concentration from the game, it would play exactly the same. Nobody's going to want your off meta support still especially since removing minstrels probably nerfs it too. If you remove trailblazer, we just go back to dire. The main fault of firebrand is that tomes are binary (full support except fire which isn't that useful) and also because of boon corrupt spam meaning without boon spam it is impossible to support. But how much better is a meta that has nearly half of each party be guardians? Scrapper was too good, but they also have -3k health recently, so shrugs

If you want alternative meta support, I'd look at pulling WvW support chrono out of the garbage heap, look into renegade/druid and nerf projectile hate. Oh, and maybe nerf CC so stability isn't that mandatory? People have suggested diminishing returns for years but they just love the CC spam I guess.

While I agree tactics should be nerfed, I wouldn't nerf EWP, because that usually guarantees a fight. If anything I would restore waypoints to their old functionality and allow a brief pause in contesting so it's easier for people to keep fights. Though I guess with mounts this is sorta moot tbh.

I'd also nerf siege weapons. Would reduce targets to 10, and with priority going to enemy siege. I'd also make it so that they get a -75% penalty vs players except arrow carts which should get a -75% penalty vs other siege.

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w/c server do you play for?

is your team > or < 35 and are you facing > or < 35?

sometimes we blame builds for lack of players or lack of players with wvw experience. and in a skirmish, normally if the commander is ill prepared to take charge and enforce certain core carry builds, it's a sure loss.

although i often blame sm siege playments and lack of squad members to carry 3 gens and 2 rams and 1 golem. thats 6 - our 15 which leaves 9 defenders against 20+ humping siege mortar treb ac balista cata on the inner sm gate from all locations 3rd floor and inner.

but i am also glad this is so since, my team at my time zone is few. so we need all the help we can get against opposing forces of 30 or so everyday. >.<

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@Threather.9354 said:

  1. Defenders advantage is overtunedThis one is quite obvious, defending was already quite easy pre-HoT but now defenders get 800 extra stats within keeps (400 in towers), perma 25% movement speed, tactics (EWP), gliding, faster upgrading, permanent supply etc.Effect of this flaw: Discourages guilds from helping to take objectives. Open-field elitism was born from this advantage. No smart guild will fight another guild within enemy keep. Keeps can be t3d under 2 hours which is completely unreasonable regarding how hard they're to take during daytime.How to fix: Well tactics are here to stay so nerf the stats of claim buff. Nerf them to half +50 stats instead of +100, 10% movement speed is enough. Increase dolyaks required to upgrade objective to 25/50/100, a small 25% increase. Not too unreasonable considering you can get bay upgraded all the way to t3 under 2 hours now.
  2. Metabuilds are too braindead and have too short cooldownsWell it doesn't take a sherlock to notice that scourges and firebrands are obvious downgrade from fun of reapers and guardians. We have moved from meta which included 2 semi-dps guardians (celestial) in party to a party system where there is 1 healbot firebrand that spams skills (and falls asleep during combat). Stability used to not only require awareness of when your party member uses it but also it was possible for 1 person to cover for the flaws of the other. This made 1 good guardian worth more than 2 bad ones. And don't get me started on scrapper, it heals and cleanses too much.Effect of this flaw: Well the game isn't fun to play, the metabuilds are overpowering the off-meta ones in every aspect, not just having superior cooldown management. The battles which used to be decided by which commander had better movement are now about which zerg has better sustain. 1 person can't kill another provided they have a support around them thus target focusing is dead for anyone else than scourges. There used to be times when synchronizing all waterfields, wellbombs, banners, dwarf elites within voice comms and training was actually necessary for a good zerg, now calling those things out on voice comms is redundant.How to fix (edited): Add amulet system to WvW, don't include minstrel. Another option is to remove Minstrel completely from the game or nerfing most outgoing boonduration in WvW for scrapper/firebrand. Make Sand Savant trait only increase the radius around the scourge (and let them keep 3 shades), shade should be a miniwell, not additional superior well. Remove purity of purpose (scrapper trait), the boons will never end if there isn't a punishment for bad cooldown management when scourges corrupt boons and scrappers turn them back to boons.EDIT: WvW amulet system should obviously be more complex than PvPs, maybe up to a point where you choose all your piece stats separately. Main point was to get Minstrel removed from the gamemode. I don't mind the current gear system, just existance of pure supports is destroying the meta too much.
  3. Desert mapWell the map is reducing WvW activity. Not only the existance of it makes some matchups completely pointless because there exists servers that completely loathe the map and don't play it (f/e whiteside ridge), but it also has half the kills of any existing map ON ANY MATCHUP. This means people spend approximately 5-6 times more time on alpine maps and the active hours would actually increase by giving these people more options rather than catering to 2-5 headed minority on each server that prefers the empty desert.Effect of this flaw: One less map to play on. We all know one or two maps are often unplayable if you want to have fun because 1 server has either strange timezones (f/e baruch bay) or one side is so much stronger that going to their map is a suicide. Desert map is unplayable most of the time due to community shunning it pushing the amount of options players have to almost none. 2 alpine maps isn't enough. Red map decides most of the points from the borderlands, either red side doesn't care about it and loses the matchup or gets it upgraded fully for whole week.How to fix: Remove desert map, it is that simple. It has the lowest activity by far and even the times some commander/guild goes there, most people within the group prefer alpine map.
  4. Watchtower tacticUnfortunately the tactic has too large of a radius up to a point where it kills roaming and makes people lazy. Current iteration also punishes new players and guilds too hard.How to fix: Nerf watchtower tactic so that it only detects siege weapons. Key points of roaming like Danelon, Rogues quarry and Pangloss rise are completely covered by the towers. Not to mention you can't have small fights near enemy tower because soon cavalry will arrive due to the red dots. Scouts would regain some of the importance of the job back as camp defenders rather than relying on the tactics too much.
  5. Siege GeneratorsWell they counter everything from omegas (up to a point where using alphas/guild golems is better), trebs, catas, ballistas, acs. Attacking is too simple, build 6+ golems and build shield gens, you will be in objective, no brain necessary.How to fix: Make the bubble pulse protection in addition to stability in area and not block siege projectiles. Protection is enough to protect from AC fire. You should be able to still be able to treb rams behind bubbles. Ballistas will be relevant again. Shield generator should become a tool to block disablers and projectiles while providing boons. It doesn't need to be counter-of-all-siege in addition to that.

1- How ez u want it?2- U dont like build diversity? WvW amulet... not gonna happen.3- Dessert map won vote. We like dessert!4- How ez u want it?5- What? Shield blocks, that what it do... Shield not boon machine.

I see no fun here.

Ty for time! GL

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I like the idea of watch tower only marking siege weapons instead of players.

Or maybe instead it marks any siege that hits it with damage. And/or guards that strike players mark them.

The concept of watch tower is good, but yeah could be implemented better maybe?

Regarding fb/scourge, the only real solution would be to nerf hammer revs, that will teach them !

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the only thing i'd vote would be blackgate. not trying to be disrespectful or flame (don't pile), just saying it just drives activity away for the week, both my na accts are here this week so i guess this is fresh on my mind at the moment as its pretty dead on both opposing servers. and for me i think it really boils down to needing to get rid of the ppt mechanic. wvw showcases the game's (imo) unparalleled fighting mechanics and yet wvw is still mostly a capture the flag game which has always seemed kind of off.

having worked in software for the last 20+ years i know nothing's going to change over night or even over the next few years (time/money/resources) but i honestly think changing the underlying mechanic of how wvw game play works from CTF to just combat would make it a lot more fun and get rid of this wide swing of ppt to the top then fall off the charts as they face a historically anet protected server that will out ppt anyone that comes their way. take the fly zones we currently have today and using the numbers of deaths per side determine majority ownership. whoever has majority # of kills in that area gets a ppk score addend for the tick. along wit that is a modifier based on players occupying the map so that (for instance) a 2:1 fight ends up with the team with twice the number/size gets half the addend per kill while the team with half the number/size gets 1.5 the addend. as the outnumber grows the ppk diminishes to the point where the vastly outnumbered team basically gets nothing while the roamers getting run over get quite a few points if they manage to down a couple in the process. taking out the capturing of the structures prevents these large groups from cowing the other team from participating in the game once they've taken everything and sit idle all day waiting for the chance to get participation when someone in the group kills somebody.

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@Threather.9354 said:

@"X T D.6458" said:
  1. Watchtower is fine
  2. Shield generator is fine, its needed to counter the ac spam that has plagued WvW for years. It useful for both attackers and defenders, so no issue here. If anything it can sometimes benefit attackers more than defenders.
  3. Watchtower removed whole concept of capping upgraded objectives for fights if group is relatively small (below 15 people). Unfortunately not many people are braindamaged enough to care about just points without fights. As a BG member surely you know that the moment enemy shows itself within the watchtower, 15 white knights will show up to defend. There is nothing inbetween, either you sneak the objective or you get farmed. This includes campfights (smaller groups) within lot of EB camps. The whole concept of watchtower being active while objective is not even contested is just disgusting.
  4. Shield generator is not needed to counter acs anymore, acs have internal cooldown now on how often they can hit a target. Simple protection and low healing is capable of keeping you alive under AC fire. Anyone who played through non-shieldgen pre/post HoT meta knows that you could very well sustain through acs then, and now it is even easier with firebrands/scrappers and ac nerfs.Also shield gen is obviously too strong for the attacker considering it blocks any siege. Build 4 of them, spread them around and defender needs whooping 4 disablers and mountain of luck to get through to the rams/golems/catas that will melt the gate/wall within a minute. Commander should have to use his brain by countering ACs with ballistas, meteor showers and omegas (action camera still allows you to hit acs on walls), not always use same "shield gens protect us from all siege" strat.

I am kinda fine with gens reducing damage from ACs but any other siege is too much... When is the last time anyone built a ballista to take a keep.. Theres not even a point building a ballista to kill acs if the defender has a shield gen on the wall, haha..

Watchtower helps greatly with scouting. I am not a fan of ktraining and siege wars. You can easily avoid watchtower to knock down the walls of a tower. I regularly scout and always go to defend objectives. I dont do this because I care about points, I do this to get fights. I am ok with losing a keep or tower if I can get a good fight out of it. What I dont like is seeing it flipped with no way of being able to respond. Years ago we would spend hours every night fighting over a single keep, trying to break a waypoint or defend that upgraded keep. It didnt really matter if we defended it or captured it because we got hours of fights out of it, that was the whole purpose of it. Removing watchtower would just allow groups to easily flip objectives that take hours to upgrade with no resistance, I dont care for this.

Shield generators can be used by both sides. I dont like seeing a ton of acs stacked inside objectives, it doesnt matter if there is some icd on its skills when there are 10 of them next to each other firing on you, alongside other siege. Balista doesnt work on gates and walls, and doesnt have proper LOS to hit objects on top of walls, except in certain areas like SMC.

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@OldJanx.6798 said:the only thing i'd vote would be blackgate. not trying to be disrespectful or flame (don't pile), just saying it just drives activity away for the week, both my na accts are here this week so i guess this is fresh on my mind at the moment as its pretty dead on both opposing servers. and for me i think it really boils down to needing to get rid of the ppt mechanic. wvw showcases the game's (imo) unparalleled fighting mechanics and yet wvw is still mostly a capture the flag game which has always seemed kind of off.

having worked in software for the last 20+ years i know nothing's going to change over night or even over the next few years (time/money/resources) but i honestly think changing the underlying mechanic of how wvw game play works from CTF to just combat would make it a lot more fun and get rid of this wide swing of ppt to the top then fall off the charts as they face a historically anet protected server that will out ppt anyone that comes their way. take the fly zones we currently have today and using the numbers of deaths per side determine majority ownership. whoever has majority # of kills in that area gets a ppk score addend for the tick. along wit that is a modifier based on players occupying the map so that (for instance) a 2:1 fight ends up with the team with twice the number/size gets half the addend per kill while the team with half the number/size gets 1.5 the addend. as the outnumber grows the ppk diminishes to the point where the vastly outnumbered team basically gets nothing while the roamers getting run over get quite a few points if they manage to down a couple in the process. taking out the capturing of the structures prevents these large groups from cowing the other team from participating in the game once they've taken everything and sit idle all day waiting for the chance to get participation when someone in the group kills somebody.

WvW is not a team deathmatch kinda thing. It is objective based with large scale combat. This allows for much greater variety in playstyles. Fighting over objectives gives a sense of progression for players which drives activity and encourages people to take on different roles and to coordinate with others.

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OP is a list of an individual's preferences and not an objective assessment of the state of the game mode, and it's not clear it was meant to be taken as such. So read the title as 'Things that would make wvw more fun for the OP' and it all makes sense . . .

Objectively, most of OP's suggestions would just be change for the sake of change, not better or worse, just different. And that would be fine, just another set of parameters to adapt to. But there are a few exceptions . . :

1) OP seems to underestimate the effect recent defensive nerfs. Structures are no longer worth tiering for their defensive advantages, further nerfs seem superfluous . . .

3) Many ppl love desert. Taking desert from those who enjoy it and reverting it to alpine so the ppl who enjoy alpine can have a third copy to play on would reduce rather than increase the total number of ppl enjoying the game . . .

4) I only roam and the watchtower tactic does not affect me in any way. I do not believe I am special in this regard . . .

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@Gop.8713 said:OP is a list of an individual's preferences and not an objective assessment of the state of the game mode, and it's not clear it was meant to be taken as such. So read the title as 'Things that would make wvw more fun for the OP' and it all makes sense . . .

Objectively, most of OP's suggestions would just be change for the sake of change, not better or worse, just different. And that would be fine, just another set of parameters to adapt to. But there are a few exceptions . . :

1) OP seems to underestimate the effect recent defensive nerfs. Structures are no longer worth tiering for their defensive advantages, further nerfs seem superfluous . . .

3) Many ppl love desert. Taking desert from those who enjoy it and reverting it to alpine so the ppl who enjoy alpine can have a third copy to play on would reduce rather than increase the total number of ppl enjoying the game . . .

4) I only roam and the watchtower tactic does not affect me in any way. I do not believe I am special in this regard . . .

i like desert now. the very thing that made me quit before. players change

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@Sovereign.1093 said:to be fair, ppl will play the mode which favors them. and bg is good at that.

Its rather easy if you have best coverage, and half the enemies are playing to dat you're 'good' in a game which is determined by numbers.

Seeing almost Every server as a host or guestserver i say bg pugs are decent but also bigtime tryhards who are NOT ashamed of running over 1 person with a blob and emotespam that person, siege Them etc.

There's always perfectly aimed siege on Every corner of the green side of the map and almost immidiatly thrown at you.

The servers are so called'inactive' but looking at WvW stats/matchups the amounts of fights (kille+deaths) dont seem to be more in T1, which it should

Its even debatable its less because its more blobbing in T1 and less actual 'small-medium sized fighting. Now your current link kaineng only lives when there's a blob Alive makes IT hardly unplayable' to beat.

There's few roamer groups on bg and even less people willing to fight smallscale on equal terms

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@L A T I O N.8923 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:to be fair, ppl will play the mode which favors them. and bg is good at that.

Its rather easy if you have best coverage, and half the enemies are playing to dat you're 'good' in a game which is determined by numbers.

Seeing almost Every server as a host or guestserver i say bg pugs are decent but also bigtime tryhards who are NOT ashamed of running over 1 person with a blob and emotespam that person, siege Them etc.

There's always perfectly aimed siege on Every corner of the green side of the map and almost immidiatly thrown at you.

The servers are so called'inactive' but looking at WvW stats/matchups the amounts of fights (kille+deaths) dont seem to be more in T1, which it should

Its even debatable its less because its more blobbing in T1 and less actual 'small-medium sized fighting. Now your current link kaineng only lives when there's a blob Alive makes IT hardly unplayable' to beat.

There's few roamer groups on bg and even less people willing to fight smallscale on equal terms

well, they want to win the ppt game. they don't really need to care about what we think though.

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I agree with some of the OP's points.1, I never understood the stat increase for the defenders. I would not mind if it got taken away completely.2, yeah there is no easy way to fix this. Well get rid of boonspam/sharing perhaps, but people will complain about feeling to squishy.3, Desert map is an abomination, the only decent thing in it is the Air keep, wich is nice and open. Garri and the firekeep are just terrible. The towers are quite meh too.4, I see no problems with this :/5, Shield gens were supposed to help the defenders, but instead it helped attackers more. I would say you cannot build this one outside of structures, that would make towers a bit more defendable, and inside keeps they can still build it. If the defenders are not showing up with numbers you deserve to lose the keep. But too late to change this since people will complain a lot when attackers cannot use it anymore.

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