I still don't understand, why would they remove distortion AND illusionary persona? Why 2 tradeoffs? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

I still don't understand, why would they remove distortion AND illusionary persona? Why 2 tradeoffs?

Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited July 25, 2019 in Mesmer

Every other spec has one drawback. Or two but one is mitigated like Impact Savant and Fatal Frenzy coming with bonuses and stat decreases. This is just two tradeoffs for no discernible reason.

Edit: please restore illusionary persona.

Comments

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭

    I may be wrong as i play necromancer and we’re all arguing amongst ourselves about the changes - but didn’t F5 and F4 get merged? So yes there’s no “distortion” but at the same time it effectively changes how continuum split works from a “second health bar for x seconds or until depleted” to “cannot be damaged and cool downs get reset”. I am aware that distortion on continuum is not as beneficial as separate as you don't need to distort AND shift together, i do feel the change is... strange, however as an outsider I see the change as a way to make continuum used as a damage effect instead of a cooldown effect, while focusing more on cooldowns (not sure how to word it), like now you have to time when to shift timelines to get the biggest benefit from both invulnerability and cooldown reduction. Chronomancer was (and most likely still is) extremely strong in PvE, such as raids, I cannot speak for pvp or wvw however. If i am missing any information please tell me.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    I may be wrong as i play necromancer and we’re all arguing amongst ourselves about the changes - but didn’t F5 and F4 get merged? So yes there’s no “distortion” but at the same time it effectively changes how continuum split works from a “second health bar for x seconds or until depleted” to “cannot be damaged and cool downs get reset”. I am aware that distortion on continuum is not as beneficial as separate as you don't need to distort AND shift together, i do feel the change is... strange, however as an outsider I see the change as a way to make continuum used as a damage effect instead of a cooldown effect, while focusing more on cooldowns (not sure how to word it), like now you have to time when to shift timelines to get the biggest benefit from both invulnerability and cooldown reduction. Chronomancer was (and most likely still is) extremely strong in PvE, such as raids, I cannot speak for pvp or wvw however. If i am missing any information please tell me.

    The merged distortion is for a flat 1 second vs 1-4 second prior, and comes with CS 105 second cooldown/forcing your back to where you started the shatter. This makes it more of a damage skill, as you surmised, and is one of the major tradeoffs from the patch.

    The second is they removed illusionary persona, a trait that has been baseline for several years. It grants the shatter effect on you as well. Without it you can only use your profession abilities when you have illusions already out, something that is impossible in a variety of situations. It would be like if necromancer couldn't store lifeforce out of combat and was being followed by a longbow ranger.

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2019

    @Xstein.2187 said:
    Guys, your missing the point. The main point is that even if distortion gave you invuln all throughout CS for a full 6 second shatter, it would basically have the same effect as if it gave you .0001 sec of distortion. Your health is going back to what it was before you clicked Continuum split no matter what.
    For all intents and purposes, distortion is pretty much not on chrono anymore.

    It depends on the context - unlike distortion, you’re not fully invulnerable. This means you can get cc’ed (wasting your precious CS time) and have conditions piled on you, which both can carry through when you phase back. If you ‘die’ in CS, you get phased back too. You’re still worried about ‘not getting hit’.

    The 1s distortion does have its advantages over the .0001s distortion.

    However, CS used defensively is similar using necro shroud + the 1s invuln they’ve always been asking for - you can very simply get nuked out of it (the 1s distortion prevents this in a way) and by mere coincidence, the health you leave with is the health you entered it with (sounds just like no healing in shroud!).

    But it’s somewhat clear that CS is designed more offensively than defensively, so the 1s distort you would probably use to cover a skill with a long cast time, and maybe you’ll want to use again afterwards. Your defense is your offense by forcing the opponent to play less aggressively, as well as any misconception that chrono is ‘invuln’ or ‘not worth blowing cds on’ during CS.

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2019

    @Mikkel.8427 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:

    That's not what he's complaining about... Its the merging of Distortion/CS AND the removal of IP as tradeoffs for the Chrono spec.

    There also seems to be a small misunderstanding of how the merge functions now.

    Distortion-
    50sec cooldown
    scales up to 4 secs invuln with 3 clones

    CS/Distort merge-
    105 sec cooldown
    1 sec of invuln (does NOT scale with clones)

    The one sec of invuln is just tacked on to CS so the devs could justify granting effects from traits that affect Distortion to the new CS.

    Despite the many downsides that presents, most will agree the merging of Distortion/CS was a reasonable tradeoff for Chronomancers. Adding the removal of Illusionary persona ON TOP of that (without any kind of compensation) is what kills the spec. Especially considering that losing IP is actually a much bigger nerf than the Distort/CS merge to begin with.

    Exactly. Titled edited for clarity.

  • broFenix.1632broFenix.1632 Member ✭✭
    edited July 19, 2019

    @Xstein.2187 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    I may be wrong as i play necromancer and we’re all arguing amongst ourselves about the changes - but didn’t F5 and F4 get merged? So yes there’s no “distortion” but at the same time it effectively changes how continuum split works from a “second health bar for x seconds or until depleted” to “cannot be damaged and cool downs get reset”. I am aware that distortion on continuum is not as beneficial as separate as you don't need to distort AND shift together, i do feel the change is... strange, however as an outsider I see the change as a way to make continuum used as a damage effect instead of a cooldown effect, while focusing more on cooldowns (not sure how to word it), like now you have to time when to shift timelines to get the biggest benefit from both invulnerability and cooldown reduction. Chronomancer was (and most likely still is) extremely strong in PvE, such as raids, I cannot speak for pvp or wvw however. If i am missing any information please tell me.

    All damage you take after continuum split gets reverted back after continuum shift. Therefore, the actual 'distortion' aspect of distortion in continuum split is absolutely worthless. Have distortion in continuum split, take no damage. Don't have distortion in continuum split, still take no damage. The only reason why they added distortion to continuum split is because some of the current baseline mesmer traits like Inspiring Distortion play off of distortion 'activating'. They at least were an important aspect of PvE and such traits would be near completely useless if CS didn't apply distortion, even if the actual 'distortion' aspect doesn't matter.

    I thoroughly agree, so much >< The distortion effect on Continuum Split, now, is worthless in my opinion. Before the July 2019 patch, Chronomancer had 2 offensive shatters, 1 CC shatter, and 2 defensive shatters. Now we have 1 defensive shatter that has a very long cooldown :( We could use Continuum Split if we really needed to, to not die to some very damaging attack and we could also use Distortion to evade an attack we knew was coming. Now we just have Continuum Split with distortion effect, and who gives a kitten? You're just going to get all your health back, what does it matter if you evade during Continuum Split!?! Ugghh........I freaking hope these changes get reversed...PLEASE ANET

  • Mini Crinny.6190Mini Crinny.6190 Member ✭✭✭

    Illusionary Persona will be in the next mesmer elite spec :)

  • Kuulpb.5412Kuulpb.5412 Member ✭✭✭

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:
    Illusionary Persona will be in the next mesmer elite spec :)

    NAH, Mesmer will just become the clone, do 0 damage and oneshot

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @broFenix.1632 said:

    @Xstein.2187 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    I may be wrong as i play necromancer and we’re all arguing amongst ourselves about the changes - but didn’t F5 and F4 get merged? So yes there’s no “distortion” but at the same time it effectively changes how continuum split works from a “second health bar for x seconds or until depleted” to “cannot be damaged and cool downs get reset”. I am aware that distortion on continuum is not as beneficial as separate as you don't need to distort AND shift together, i do feel the change is... strange, however as an outsider I see the change as a way to make continuum used as a damage effect instead of a cooldown effect, while focusing more on cooldowns (not sure how to word it), like now you have to time when to shift timelines to get the biggest benefit from both invulnerability and cooldown reduction. Chronomancer was (and most likely still is) extremely strong in PvE, such as raids, I cannot speak for pvp or wvw however. If i am missing any information please tell me.

    All damage you take after continuum split gets reverted back after continuum shift. Therefore, the actual 'distortion' aspect of distortion in continuum split is absolutely worthless. Have distortion in continuum split, take no damage. Don't have distortion in continuum split, still take no damage. The only reason why they added distortion to continuum split is because some of the current baseline mesmer traits like Inspiring Distortion play off of distortion 'activating'. They at least were an important aspect of PvE and such traits would be near completely useless if CS didn't apply distortion, even if the actual 'distortion' aspect doesn't matter.

    I thoroughly agree, so much >< The distortion effect on Continuum Split, now, is worthless in my opinion. Before the July 2019 patch, Chronomancer had 2 offensive shatters, 1 CC shatter, and 2 defensive shatters. Now we have 1 defensive shatter that has a very long cooldown :( We could use Continuum Split if we really needed to, to not die to some very damaging attack and we could also use Distortion to evade an attack we knew was coming. Now we just have Continuum Split with distortion effect, and who gives a kitten? You're just going to get all your health back, what does it matter if you evade during Continuum Split!?! Ugghh........I freaking hope these changes get reversed...PLEASE ANET

    If you die during continuum split you don't get your health back. And if you get condi or cc bombed they don't go away when you revert. The distortion on CS is purely for setting up offensive skill chains not defense.

    It is a tradeoff. The real problem is we lost illusionary persona on top of this.

  • Xstein.2187Xstein.2187 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @broFenix.1632 said:

    @Xstein.2187 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    I may be wrong as i play necromancer and we’re all arguing amongst ourselves about the changes - but didn’t F5 and F4 get merged? So yes there’s no “distortion” but at the same time it effectively changes how continuum split works from a “second health bar for x seconds or until depleted” to “cannot be damaged and cool downs get reset”. I am aware that distortion on continuum is not as beneficial as separate as you don't need to distort AND shift together, i do feel the change is... strange, however as an outsider I see the change as a way to make continuum used as a damage effect instead of a cooldown effect, while focusing more on cooldowns (not sure how to word it), like now you have to time when to shift timelines to get the biggest benefit from both invulnerability and cooldown reduction. Chronomancer was (and most likely still is) extremely strong in PvE, such as raids, I cannot speak for pvp or wvw however. If i am missing any information please tell me.

    All damage you take after continuum split gets reverted back after continuum shift. Therefore, the actual 'distortion' aspect of distortion in continuum split is absolutely worthless. Have distortion in continuum split, take no damage. Don't have distortion in continuum split, still take no damage. The only reason why they added distortion to continuum split is because some of the current baseline mesmer traits like Inspiring Distortion play off of distortion 'activating'. They at least were an important aspect of PvE and such traits would be near completely useless if CS didn't apply distortion, even if the actual 'distortion' aspect doesn't matter.

    I thoroughly agree, so much >< The distortion effect on Continuum Split, now, is worthless in my opinion. Before the July 2019 patch, Chronomancer had 2 offensive shatters, 1 CC shatter, and 2 defensive shatters. Now we have 1 defensive shatter that has a very long cooldown :( We could use Continuum Split if we really needed to, to not die to some very damaging attack and we could also use Distortion to evade an attack we knew was coming. Now we just have Continuum Split with distortion effect, and who gives a kitten? You're just going to get all your health back, what does it matter if you evade during Continuum Split!?! Ugghh........I freaking hope these changes get reversed...PLEASE ANET

    If you die during continuum split you don't get your health back. And if you get condi or cc bombed they don't go away when you revert. The distortion on CS is purely for setting up offensive skill chains not defense.

    It is a tradeoff. The real problem is we lost illusionary persona on top of this.

    You are apsolutely 100% right. I think the only thing people disagree on (or should disagree on) is HOW useful it is and why distortion was combined to begin with. I'm not saying this is the same for everyone. However, I have played hundreds of PvP matches as a chrono without distortion on CS and believe I died in continuum split maybe 2 times, with both being 100% my fault and I don't even know if 1 second of distortion at the beginning would have saved me. Additionally, yes, after you enter CS, even though your health goes back, conditions continue to tick when you get back. However, what matters in this discussion isn't continuum split, it's distortion. As far as I know, distortions makes it so conditions don't do damage, but they still tick as well. Let's say I have 6 seconds of bleeding. If I pop CS without distortion for 2 seconds exactly on 5 seconds left of bleeding, I'm going to be at X damage taken with 3 seconds left of bleeding when I get back. If I pop CS with distortion for 2 seconds exactly on 5 seconds left of bleeding, I'm still going to be at X damage taken with 3 seconds left of bleeding. There will be no difference. The only way it absolutely matters at all is if a stack of conditions are applied within the first 1 second of continuum split that at least lasts longer than the duration of continuum split itself. Of course that could potentially be beneficial. However, the exact amount of HOW beneficial and likely both of these are can be quite arbitrary and open to scrutinization. I still highly, highly doubt that the potential of dying in CS was the reason they implemented it in the first place and still maintain the belief that it was due to some mesmer traits becoming completely useless if if wasn't implemented in some shape or form. If you remember, in PvP chrono was responsible for distorting your allies durring attacks, such as greens on Vale Guardian. Even when this was changed to aegis on the trait, it was still extremely useful for the group. Even though this is a lot harder now, if the devs didn't add distortion at all, this would be absolutely impossible and players would additionally blame the devs for having a traits that are 100% useless when playing chrono. However, there is really not much necessity to fight about this too much since we pretty much agree on 99% of everything else :)

  • Genesis.7864Genesis.7864 Member ✭✭✭

    And without self-shatter: you miss out on a quick heal, alacrity, condi clear, distortion (merged with CS now), and quickness if you have that trait instead of chronophantasma. Quickness on shatter was amazing QoL while in AB prior to opening exalted chests.

  • I couldn’t tell you and anet couldn’t either, and they won’t

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trepidation Lost.3469 said:
    I couldn’t tell you and anet couldn’t either, and they won’t

    I saw on reddit they were sending surveys to some people for feedback. Maybe they are also reading the forums.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2019

    What I'll say will probably be infuriating but the underlying reason why the question is asked is mostly because IP isn't removed for mirage. If IP was removed from mirage you wouldn't have a reason to complain about the trade off since you'd have:

    • Core special mechanism: QoL/extended shatter from IP
    • Chrono special mechanism: "time themed" shatter (QoL loss from the loss of IP)
    • Mirage special mechanism: avoidance and shatter (QoL loss from the loss of IP)

    The reason behind the fact that distorsion took the nerf bat is probably because the shield granted an extra layer of defense and to balance the chrono and core defense ANet chose this trade-off.

    The reason why they didn't make a move on mirage is probably because it's the latest e-spec and is mainly revolving around avoidance. Removing IP from mirage would hurt a lot it's ability to avoid, which goes against the thematic. The "best" solution would probably be to reduce the mirage max number of illusion to 2 and retaining IP, keeping the intended tankiness (albeit tuned done) and tuning done the excessive amount of potential burst damage at the same time. Now, they also might not have done it yet because tempering with the profession's UI is a difficult task and they need more time to find a proper solution. A reckless and clueless opinion would be to make the mirage effectively count as an illusion and permanently fill up one of the illusion count dots, but it might break things like traits and skills that boost illusions.

  • YtseJam.9784YtseJam.9784 Member ✭✭✭

    ANET doesn't realize how bad this is... i just died.. to some level 33 ogres at ogre wars... cause i was constant stunned for ages, crippled, bleeding, immobilized, and I've been trying to go back to using Mirror Images and Decoy to be able to quickly spawn Illusions, but ran out really quick and died like a noob. Level 33 ogres... pathetic.

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    Personally I am all up for no IP on chrono....however, if we go down this route, they need to make additional changes imo:
    -Illusionary reversion should get one clone back out ouf of 2 (only when you have 2 clones up)
    -for mesmer as a whole, clones that has been shattered shouldn’t be vulnerable or buffed to damage effect or boon effect that do not target them (for the purpose of WvW and PvP)
    -for mirage, if clones act like in PvE in WVW and PvP, the big trade-off would be to have the elite spec not gain additional clones out of phantasm.

    Or, who knows, maybe it would be simpler to make the clones gain health when you shatter them (only for chrono) so that they don’t t get insta destroyed by effects that do not target them (realistically they could get rid of illusionary reversion now that a mesmer can gain a clone out of a phantasm and create a new trait in the lines of “your clones gain health when shattered based on a x percentage of your health”).
    All I would like to point out is two things:
    -it would be much more fun (talking purely about PvP and WvW here) to play against a class that is not constantly summoning phantasm and clones just to counter the fact that clones have low health
    -having phantasm turn into clones is not a good enough mechanic in chrono spec to cover the loss of IP imo.

    Other than that, it might just simpler to gain IP back on chrono, although I don’t like the idea that a chrono can double up on his elite without needing any clone investment.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Levetty.1279 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    What I'll say will probably be infuriating but the underlying reason why the question is asked is mostly because IP isn't removed for mirage. If IP was removed from mirage you wouldn't have a reason to complain about the trade off since you'd have:

    • Core special mechanism: QoL/extended shatter from IP
    • Chrono special mechanism: "time themed" shatter (QoL loss from the loss of IP)
    • Mirage special mechanism: avoidance and shatter (QoL loss from the loss of IP)

    The reason behind the fact that distorsion took the nerf bat is probably because the shield granted an extra layer of defense and to balance the chrono and core defense ANet chose this trade-off.

    The reason why they didn't make a move on mirage is probably because it's the latest e-spec and is mainly revolving around avoidance. Removing IP from mirage would hurt a lot it's ability to avoid, which goes against the thematic. The "best" solution would probably be to reduce the mirage max number of illusion to 2 and retaining IP, keeping the intended tankiness (albeit tuned done) and tuning done the excessive amount of potential burst damage at the same time. Now, they also might not have done it yet because tempering with the profession's UI is a difficult task and they need more time to find a proper solution. A reckless and clueless opinion would be to make the mirage effectively count as an illusion and permanently fill up one of the illusion count dots, but it might break things like traits and skills that boost illusions.

    Anet nerfs Chrono and you people immediately come demanding Mirage nerfs. Its so tiring.

    It's not mirage nerf, it's balance.

    Had you read me right, you'd understand that what I suggest is that the tradeoff for the chrono "new shatter" skills and the mirage ambushs become standardized to merely 1 less max clone. Solution which would be fair, bring back IP QoL to chrono and tune down the ratio damage/survivability of the mirage (something which, ultimately, is necessary to bring back balance to the profession as a whole).

    As long as you got additionnal feat to the core profession, you need something to tune down the powercreep. Removing inbuild QoL like IP is ultimately the wrong move, reducing the potential of the core profession's mechanism is a better way to do it. What do you expect ANet will remove from the mirage when it will be time to give him a tradeoff for the damage powercreep from it's ambush feat? Do you really expect that they won't touch anything? Granted that mirage gain quite a few evade from it's specialization, do you want ANet to weaken the shatter and remove IP from the specialization like they did to chrono? That would be the worst.

    We all know the "tradeoff" is coming and I'd rather have a well made tradeoff than the butcher job they did to chrono.

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xstein.2187 said:

    @Kuulpb.5412 said:
    I may be wrong as i play necromancer and we’re all arguing amongst ourselves about the changes - but didn’t F5 and F4 get merged? So yes there’s no “distortion” but at the same time it effectively changes how continuum split works from a “second health bar for x seconds or until depleted” to “cannot be damaged and cool downs get reset”. I am aware that distortion on continuum is not as beneficial as separate as you don't need to distort AND shift together, i do feel the change is... strange, however as an outsider I see the change as a way to make continuum used as a damage effect instead of a cooldown effect, while focusing more on cooldowns (not sure how to word it), like now you have to time when to shift timelines to get the biggest benefit from both invulnerability and cooldown reduction. Chronomancer was (and most likely still is) extremely strong in PvE, such as raids, I cannot speak for pvp or wvw however. If i am missing any information please tell me.

    All damage you take after continuum split gets reverted back after continuum shift. Therefore, the actual 'distortion' aspect of distortion in continuum split is absolutely worthless. Have distortion in continuum split, take no damage. Don't have distortion in continuum split, still take no damage. The only reason why they added distortion to continuum split is because some of the current baseline mesmer traits like Inspiring Distortion play off of distortion 'activating'. They at least were an important aspect of PvE and such traits would be near completely useless if CS didn't apply distortion, even if the actual 'distortion' aspect doesn't matter.

    You still can be cced

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    It's not mirage nerf, it's balance.

    Had you read me right, you'd understand that what I suggest is that the tradeoff for the chrono "new shatter" skills and the mirage ambushs become standardized to merely 1 less max clone. Solution which would be fair, bring back IP QoL to chrono and tune down the ratio damage/survivability of the mirage (something which, ultimately, is necessary to bring back balance to the profession as a whole).

    As long as you got additionnal feat to the core profession, you need something to tune down the powercreep. Removing inbuild QoL like IP is ultimately the wrong move, reducing the potential of the core profession's mechanism is a better way to do it. What do you expect ANet will remove from the mirage when it will be time to give him a tradeoff for the damage powercreep from it's ambush feat? Do you really expect that they won't touch anything? Granted that mirage gain quite a few evade from it's specialization, do you want ANet to weaken the shatter and remove IP from the specialization like they did to chrono? That would be the worst.

    We all know the "tradeoff" is coming and I'd rather have a well made tradeoff than the butcher job they did to chrono.

    Ambush replace a normal attack, so it's only slightly stronger than a regular attack. Mirage Cloak allows it during a time where others might have actually had a dodge animation, but sacrifices being able to dodge as far or for as long. Your idea of a tradeoff is more of a nerf in most game modes, where as a major part of the issue with current design is that Core is simply too weak to compare numbers wise. For increasing damage for Core across the board, it would be better to give it a static aura buff for not specializing in Chrono or Mirage, rather than weaken the other two down to Core levels.

    Mirage is not overperforming in any game mode, but the complaints remain in PvP environments because of a lack of counterplay opportunities, damage source being outside the player and thus not easily responded to, animations being masked a number of skills or having no animation at all. Ultimately, the profession relies on a damage source that is unreliable, and perhaps a bit too strong when it can all be lined up very well, but very inconsistent. This variance leads to inherently broken design issues, game modes in which a Mesmer is weaker always (WvW), or in builds that massively underperform (Mirage in PvE raids and group situations), or massively overperform (in 1v1 and duel situations, where long duration invulnerability and no animation damage sources and CC end up very strong, sPvP). To attempt to balance this weakness and power the devs have tried keeping the profession very squishy, and results in a very binary position, where a small tweak could end up making the profession too strong or far too weak.

    What is sneaky about this is that almost all of these issues root back to the very design of clones, they assumed implementing IP baseline for Mesmer would make everything work, since the profession would no longer be as reliant on clones, but what it actually does is just make them as reliant as ever and need to be balanced around having one clone at all times. This in turn makes their abilities almost too strong when at 3 clones, and all of this because the clones have to travel to their target to do damage (irrelevant at melee range, and thus the uses of stealths and teleports to get around that weakness). Thus we end up in a situation where Mesmer remains unbalanced, too weak when clones are not up (a great deal of WvW, some PvE, and even in group situations in PvP), and maybe slightly too strong when they are up and able to remain so until they manage to hit the target.

    My proposed solution has been posted in many threads and should be viewed as it goes straight to the heart of the Mesmer issues (regardless of elite specialization).

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    Ambush replace a normal attack, so it's only slightly stronger than a regular attack. Mirage Cloak allows it during a time where others might have actually had a dodge animation, but sacrifices being able to dodge as far or for as long. Your idea of a tradeoff is more of a nerf in most game modes, where as a major part of the issue with current design is that Core is simply too weak to compare numbers wise. For increasing damage for Core across the board, it would be better to give it a static aura buff for not specializing in Chrono or Mirage, rather than weaken the other two down to Core levels.

    Excuse me but this way to put things is wrong.

    Let's be clear, whatever increase in damage, defense or utility you give to the core, the e-specs will automatically benefit from it and go a step further from the core profession. Core in itself don't need any extra to put it to the level of the e-specs, the e-specs need some tune down. This is the case for mesmer like it is for many other professions.

    Mirage is not overperforming in any game mode, but the complaints remain in PvP environments because of a lack of counterplay opportunities, damage source being outside the player and thus not easily responded to, animations being masked a number of skills or having no animation at all. Ultimately, the profession relies on a damage source that is unreliable, and perhaps a bit too strong when it can all be lined up very well, but very inconsistent. This variance leads to inherently broken design issues, game modes in which a Mesmer is weaker always (WvW), or in builds that massively underperform (Mirage in PvE raids and group situations), or massively overperform (in 1v1 and duel situations, where long duration invulnerability and no animation damage sources and CC end up very strong, sPvP). To attempt to balance this weakness and power the devs have tried keeping the profession very squishy, and results in a very binary position, where a small tweak could end up making the profession too strong or far too weak.

    You don't get it, mirage is overperforming because it reach a higher defense and offense than core without any sacrifice. To put it simply it's as unhealthy as having life stealing with a heal based on a %age of damage done. The survivability gained will be bad if you build tanky but will shot throught the roof if you build glassy. Making it meaningless to build tanky. Mirage achieve the same thing: high survivability with glassy build and absolutely no reason to seek a tanky build for survivability.

    Contrary to what Levetti think, mirage cloack's loss of movement have a big counter part: you can attack/cast skills while you avoid damage. And this make a huge difference. The Ambushs just add powercreeped damage on top of that. There is a need to tune down this powercreep and reducing the number of clone which use as well the ambushs (another layer of powercreep) is amongst the "better" idea.

    One last point, the profession isn't "very squishy", in fact the mesmer have high amount of survivability in-built into it's weapon kits and special mechanism. Mesmers just play extremly glassy builds and glassy build with high survivability are bad design.

    What is sneaky about this is that almost all of these issues root back to the very design of clones, they assumed implementing IP baseline for Mesmer would make everything work, since the profession would no longer be as reliant on clones, but what it actually does is just make them as reliant as ever and need to be balanced around having one clone at all times. This in turn makes their abilities almost too strong when at 3 clones, and all of this because the clones have to travel to their target to do damage (irrelevant at melee range, and thus the uses of stealths and teleports to get around that weakness). Thus we end up in a situation where Mesmer remains unbalanced, too weak when clones are not up (a great deal of WvW, some PvE, and even in group situations in PvP), and maybe slightly too strong when they are up and able to remain so until they manage to hit the target.

    So here, you admit that the number of clones is to high but still you don't think reducing it for e-specs is a good idea and you'd rather have a static aura on core? This is madness.

    My proposed solution has been posted in many threads and should be viewed as it goes straight to the heart of the Mesmer issues (regardless of elite specialization).

    I'll repeat myself, you can't buff core to push it to the e-specs level, you have to bring down the e-spec level to the level of core. Only when that's the case you'll be able to buff core. Trying to push core to the e-specs level without drawbacks on the e-specs is an impossible task due to the fact that e-specs draw on core while core don't draw on the e-specs. Any suggestion that propose to buff core before having all e-specs brought down to the core level is an unreasonable suggestion.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Levetty.1279 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    It's not mirage nerf, it's balance.

    Had you read me right, you'd understand that what I suggest is that the tradeoff

    Its a nerf. The tradeoff for Mirage is that its dodge doesn't move. They have already nerfed duration and removed superspeed on top of that.
    Stop pretending you care about balance, you just want mirage nerfed.

    Ok, you don't have a clue...

    For your culture, a standard dodge prevent you from using any non instant skill and interrupt the skill you where using for the full 3/4s evade window. With mirage cloack you are free from those drawbacks. Thus, the tradeoff for the loss of movement while dodging is the ability to continue to use your skills while dodging and it's well worth it.

    However, there is load of evade/defense packed into the mirage utility skills and the extra offense packed into the ambushs skills. And you still have an untouched core worth of strength backing the mirage on top of that. So where is the tradeoff for this powercreep of defense and offense?

    I certainly do care a lot more about balance than someone that just want more "power" and can't see the powercreep where it is.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2019

    Let's look at meta. Staff ambush 1sec cast time, scepter 1,5 sec cast time. MC 3/4, time to flip skill and reflexes so you can cast ambush 1/4.
    Staff ambush - half of the skill is done outside MC.
    Scepter ambush - 1sec of the skill is done outside MC.

    So where the heck is the attack while evading BS everyone is spewing?

    MC is trash period, the only thing good about it is the evade while stunned bit.

    The only good trait mirage has access to is IH.
    Mirage has to burn dodges to keep the pressure going on, which means less defensive dodging.
    Mirage has one of the less amount of vigor uptime on game.

    Will mirage get tradeoffs? Absolutely.
    Should mirage get tradeoffs? No, a trash dodge and traits are enough of tradeoffs.

    The degenerate

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2019

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    Ambush replace a normal attack, so it's only slightly stronger than a regular attack. Mirage Cloak allows it during a time where others might have actually had a dodge animation, but sacrifices being able to dodge as far or for as long. Your idea of a tradeoff is more of a nerf in most game modes, where as a major part of the issue with current design is that Core is simply too weak to compare numbers wise. For increasing damage for Core across the board, it would be better to give it a static aura buff for not specializing in Chrono or Mirage, rather than weaken the other two down to Core levels.

    Excuse me but this way to put things is wrong.

    Let's be clear, whatever increase in damage, defense or utility you give to the core, the e-specs will automatically benefit from it and go a step further from the core profession. Core in itself don't need any extra to put it to the level of the e-specs, the e-specs need some tune down. This is the case for mesmer like it is for many other professions.

    Mirage is not overperforming in any game mode, but the complaints remain in PvP environments because of a lack of counterplay opportunities, damage source being outside the player and thus not easily responded to, animations being masked a number of skills or having no animation at all. Ultimately, the profession relies on a damage source that is unreliable, and perhaps a bit too strong when it can all be lined up very well, but very inconsistent. This variance leads to inherently broken design issues, game modes in which a Mesmer is weaker always (WvW), or in builds that massively underperform (Mirage in PvE raids and group situations), or massively overperform (in 1v1 and duel situations, where long duration invulnerability and no animation damage sources and CC end up very strong, sPvP). To attempt to balance this weakness and power the devs have tried keeping the profession very squishy, and results in a very binary position, where a small tweak could end up making the profession too strong or far too weak.

    You don't get it, mirage is overperforming because it reach a higher defense and offense than core without any sacrifice. To put it simply it's as unhealthy as having life stealing with a heal based on a %age of damage done. The survivability gained will be bad if you build tanky but will shot throught the roof if you build glassy. Making it meaningless to build tanky. Mirage achieve the same thing: high survivability with glassy build and absolutely no reason to seek a tanky build for survivability.

    Contrary to what Levetti think, mirage cloack's loss of movement have a big counter part: you can attack/cast skills while you avoid damage. And this make a huge difference. The Ambushs just add powercreeped damage on top of that. There is a need to tune down this powercreep and reducing the number of clone which use as well the ambushs (another layer of powercreep) is amongst the "better" idea.

    One last point, the profession isn't "very squishy", in fact the mesmer have high amount of survivability in-built into it's weapon kits and special mechanism. Mesmers just play extremly glassy builds and glassy build with high survivability are bad design.

    What is sneaky about this is that almost all of these issues root back to the very design of clones, they assumed implementing IP baseline for Mesmer would make everything work, since the profession would no longer be as reliant on clones, but what it actually does is just make them as reliant as ever and need to be balanced around having one clone at all times. This in turn makes their abilities almost too strong when at 3 clones, and all of this because the clones have to travel to their target to do damage (irrelevant at melee range, and thus the uses of stealths and teleports to get around that weakness). Thus we end up in a situation where Mesmer remains unbalanced, too weak when clones are not up (a great deal of WvW, some PvE, and even in group situations in PvP), and maybe slightly too strong when they are up and able to remain so until they manage to hit the target.

    So here, you admit that the number of clones is to high but still you don't think reducing it for e-specs is a good idea and you'd rather have a static aura on core? This is madness.

    My proposed solution has been posted in many threads and should be viewed as it goes straight to the heart of the Mesmer issues (regardless of elite specialization).

    I'll repeat myself, you can't buff core to push it to the e-specs level, you have to bring down the e-spec level to the level of core. Only when that's the case you'll be able to buff core. Trying to push core to the e-specs level without drawbacks on the e-specs is an impossible task due to the fact that e-specs draw on core while core don't draw on the e-specs. Any suggestion that propose to buff core before having all e-specs brought down to the core level is an unreasonable suggestion.

    What you are really saying is that you feel elite specializations are doing too much damage in general and want to see that toned back. I disagree, I think their damage is not the issue, it is that they get to do that damage while being increasingly strong defensively as well. Now balance means to make things roughly equally strong, and the way you propose is to nerf everything down to where you think it should be damage wise (and perhaps ssurvivability wise), but another way is to buff the underperforming Core professions. At this point, there are less Core professions with noticeably less damage and defense than elite specializations, it makes more sense to target bolster those as I have suggested (simply aura buff to core that is lost on choosing an elite). That keeps the change simple and doesn’t require changing profession skills, as Mesmer core survivability is not really the issue here, Chrono before last patch was basically the same survivability, while only Mirage actually has had a much stronger defensive load out. I can easily make a Core build that lives long enough, but it lacks the damage to threaten opponents so dies in battles of attrition, or in PvE it just lacks the damage to not actually be a burden to the team.

    The issues seem to stem from the Clone mechanisms in my opinion, where their damage is inconsistent due to their design of running at an enemy to do damage and being a destroyable resource. Unfortunately, changing that means reworking the entirety of Core, and the best temporary fix is giving Core a flat damage and defense aura. It would be better for them to fix the systemic issue at the source however, and honestly that is my hope, but I would settle for merely an aura toggle (e.g. Supreme Illusionist - baseline Compounding traits and reduced Illusion recharge times, toggles off when choosing an elite specialization).

    If you choose to call everyone else flatly wrong though, it points to being unreasonable yourself. From my experience, most of the issues with powercreep as you see it is really just a matter that they wanted the game to be a bit easier in PvE since HoT was actually difficult for a large number of players, so they reduced difficulty and kept the same power of the professions. Problem is Core has always just been flat worse because elite specializations were just tacked onto their power rather than having drawbacks. Powering down every elite to core levels is simply not going to happen.

    Edit: Also, before HoT, there existed builds that were strong offensively and defensively, but in the context of the game being less powered overall, that was basically the same as now, excluding Core builds which just became flat worse than elite specs. There still exist solid defensive and offensive builds, just that Core of most professions simply cannot compete with their elite brethren, making them equal does not necessarily mean nerfing the existing stuff at all.

  • AwwYiss.8146AwwYiss.8146 Member ✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    Let's be clear, whatever increase in damage, defense or utility you give to the core, the e-specs will automatically benefit from it and go a step further from the core profession. Core in itself don't need any extra to put it to the level of the e-specs, the e-specs need some tune down. This is the case for mesmer like it is for many other professions.

    I disagree, why nerf elite specs? Core specs should be made competitive.

    Look how "balanced" guardian is. With how ridiculous that is, can we honestly say that their aim is to make people buy expacs? Clearly it's possible to bring core specs up to near elite spec level. They've done it with their baby. Let's be honest here, balance is not a priority, Anet is clearly showing that.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    Ambush replace a normal attack, so it's only slightly stronger than a regular attack. Mirage Cloak allows it during a time where others might have actually had a dodge animation, but sacrifices being able to dodge as far or for as long. Your idea of a tradeoff is more of a nerf in most game modes, where as a major part of the issue with current design is that Core is simply too weak to compare numbers wise. For increasing damage for Core across the board, it would be better to give it a static aura buff for not specializing in Chrono or Mirage, rather than weaken the other two down to Core levels.

    Excuse me but this way to put things is wrong.

    Let's be clear, whatever increase in damage, defense or utility you give to the core, the e-specs will automatically benefit from it and go a step further from the core profession. Core in itself don't need any extra to put it to the level of the e-specs, the e-specs need some tune down. This is the case for mesmer like it is for many other professions.

    Mirage is not overperforming in any game mode, but the complaints remain in PvP environments because of a lack of counterplay opportunities, damage source being outside the player and thus not easily responded to, animations being masked a number of skills or having no animation at all. Ultimately, the profession relies on a damage source that is unreliable, and perhaps a bit too strong when it can all be lined up very well, but very inconsistent. This variance leads to inherently broken design issues, game modes in which a Mesmer is weaker always (WvW), or in builds that massively underperform (Mirage in PvE raids and group situations), or massively overperform (in 1v1 and duel situations, where long duration invulnerability and no animation damage sources and CC end up very strong, sPvP). To attempt to balance this weakness and power the devs have tried keeping the profession very squishy, and results in a very binary position, where a small tweak could end up making the profession too strong or far too weak.

    You don't get it, mirage is overperforming because it reach a higher defense and offense than core without any sacrifice. To put it simply it's as unhealthy as having life stealing with a heal based on a %age of damage done. The survivability gained will be bad if you build tanky but will shot throught the roof if you build glassy. Making it meaningless to build tanky. Mirage achieve the same thing: high survivability with glassy build and absolutely no reason to seek a tanky build for survivability.

    Contrary to what Levetti think, mirage cloack's loss of movement have a big counter part: you can attack/cast skills while you avoid damage. And this make a huge difference. The Ambushs just add powercreeped damage on top of that. There is a need to tune down this powercreep and reducing the number of clone which use as well the ambushs (another layer of powercreep) is amongst the "better" idea.

    One last point, the profession isn't "very squishy", in fact the mesmer have high amount of survivability in-built into it's weapon kits and special mechanism. Mesmers just play extremly glassy builds and glassy build with high survivability are bad design.

    What is sneaky about this is that almost all of these issues root back to the very design of clones, they assumed implementing IP baseline for Mesmer would make everything work, since the profession would no longer be as reliant on clones, but what it actually does is just make them as reliant as ever and need to be balanced around having one clone at all times. This in turn makes their abilities almost too strong when at 3 clones, and all of this because the clones have to travel to their target to do damage (irrelevant at melee range, and thus the uses of stealths and teleports to get around that weakness). Thus we end up in a situation where Mesmer remains unbalanced, too weak when clones are not up (a great deal of WvW, some PvE, and even in group situations in PvP), and maybe slightly too strong when they are up and able to remain so until they manage to hit the target.

    So here, you admit that the number of clones is to high but still you don't think reducing it for e-specs is a good idea and you'd rather have a static aura on core? This is madness.

    My proposed solution has been posted in many threads and should be viewed as it goes straight to the heart of the Mesmer issues (regardless of elite specialization).

    I'll repeat myself, you can't buff core to push it to the e-specs level, you have to bring down the e-spec level to the level of core. Only when that's the case you'll be able to buff core. Trying to push core to the e-specs level without drawbacks on the e-specs is an impossible task due to the fact that e-specs draw on core while core don't draw on the e-specs. Any suggestion that propose to buff core before having all e-specs brought down to the core level is an unreasonable suggestion.

    What you are really saying is that you feel elite specializations are doing too much damage in general and want to see that toned back. I disagree, I think their damage is not the issue, it is that they get to do that damage while being increasingly strong defensively as well. Now balance means to make things roughly equally strong, and the way you propose is to nerf everything down to where you think it should be damage wise (and perhaps ssurvivability wise), but another way is to buff the underperforming Core professions. At this point, there are less Core professions with noticeably less damage and defense than elite specializations, it makes more sense to target bolster those as I have suggested (simply aura buff to core that is lost on choosing an elite). That keeps the change simple and doesn’t require changing profession skills, as Mesmer core survivability is not really the issue here, Chrono before last patch was basically the same survivability, while only Mirage actually has had a much stronger defensive load out. I can easily make a Core build that lives long enough, but it lacks the damage to threaten opponents so dies in battles of attrition, or in PvE it just lacks the damage to not actually be a burden to the team.

    The issues seem to stem from the Clone mechanisms in my opinion, where their damage is inconsistent due to their design of running at an enemy to do damage and being a destroyable resource. Unfortunately, changing that means reworking the entirety of Core, and the best temporary fix is giving Core a flat damage and defense aura. It would be better for them to fix the systemic issue at the source however, and honestly that is my hope, but I would settle for merely an aura toggle (e.g. Supreme Illusionist - baseline Compounding traits and reduced Illusion recharge times, toggles off when choosing an elite specialization).

    If you choose to call everyone else flatly wrong though, it points to being unreasonable yourself. From my experience, most of the issues with powercreep as you see it is really just a matter that they wanted the game to be a bit easier in PvE since HoT was actually difficult for a large number of players, so they reduced difficulty and kept the same power of the professions. Problem is Core has always just been flat worse because elite specializations were just tacked onto their power rather than having drawbacks. Powering down every elite to core levels is simply not going to happen.

    Edit: Also, before HoT, there existed builds that were strong offensively and defensively, but in the context of the game being less powered overall, that was basically the same as now, excluding Core builds which just became flat worse than elite specs. There still exist solid defensive and offensive builds, just that Core of most professions simply cannot compete with their elite brethren, making them equal does not necessarily mean nerfing the existing stuff at all.

    Powering up core doesn't seem like something they financially prefer.

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    Ambush replace a normal attack, so it's only slightly stronger than a regular attack. Mirage Cloak allows it during a time where others might have actually had a dodge animation, but sacrifices being able to dodge as far or for as long. Your idea of a tradeoff is more of a nerf in most game modes, where as a major part of the issue with current design is that Core is simply too weak to compare numbers wise. For increasing damage for Core across the board, it would be better to give it a static aura buff for not specializing in Chrono or Mirage, rather than weaken the other two down to Core levels.

    Excuse me but this way to put things is wrong.

    Let's be clear, whatever increase in damage, defense or utility you give to the core, the e-specs will automatically benefit from it and go a step further from the core profession. Core in itself don't need any extra to put it to the level of the e-specs, the e-specs need some tune down. This is the case for mesmer like it is for many other professions.

    Mirage is not overperforming in any game mode, but the complaints remain in PvP environments because of a lack of counterplay opportunities, damage source being outside the player and thus not easily responded to, animations being masked a number of skills or having no animation at all. Ultimately, the profession relies on a damage source that is unreliable, and perhaps a bit too strong when it can all be lined up very well, but very inconsistent. This variance leads to inherently broken design issues, game modes in which a Mesmer is weaker always (WvW), or in builds that massively underperform (Mirage in PvE raids and group situations), or massively overperform (in 1v1 and duel situations, where long duration invulnerability and no animation damage sources and CC end up very strong, sPvP). To attempt to balance this weakness and power the devs have tried keeping the profession very squishy, and results in a very binary position, where a small tweak could end up making the profession too strong or far too weak.

    You don't get it, mirage is overperforming because it reach a higher defense and offense than core without any sacrifice. To put it simply it's as unhealthy as having life stealing with a heal based on a %age of damage done. The survivability gained will be bad if you build tanky but will shot throught the roof if you build glassy. Making it meaningless to build tanky. Mirage achieve the same thing: high survivability with glassy build and absolutely no reason to seek a tanky build for survivability.

    Contrary to what Levetti think, mirage cloack's loss of movement have a big counter part: you can attack/cast skills while you avoid damage. And this make a huge difference. The Ambushs just add powercreeped damage on top of that. There is a need to tune down this powercreep and reducing the number of clone which use as well the ambushs (another layer of powercreep) is amongst the "better" idea.

    One last point, the profession isn't "very squishy", in fact the mesmer have high amount of survivability in-built into it's weapon kits and special mechanism. Mesmers just play extremly glassy builds and glassy build with high survivability are bad design.

    What is sneaky about this is that almost all of these issues root back to the very design of clones, they assumed implementing IP baseline for Mesmer would make everything work, since the profession would no longer be as reliant on clones, but what it actually does is just make them as reliant as ever and need to be balanced around having one clone at all times. This in turn makes their abilities almost too strong when at 3 clones, and all of this because the clones have to travel to their target to do damage (irrelevant at melee range, and thus the uses of stealths and teleports to get around that weakness). Thus we end up in a situation where Mesmer remains unbalanced, too weak when clones are not up (a great deal of WvW, some PvE, and even in group situations in PvP), and maybe slightly too strong when they are up and able to remain so until they manage to hit the target.

    So here, you admit that the number of clones is to high but still you don't think reducing it for e-specs is a good idea and you'd rather have a static aura on core? This is madness.

    My proposed solution has been posted in many threads and should be viewed as it goes straight to the heart of the Mesmer issues (regardless of elite specialization).

    I'll repeat myself, you can't buff core to push it to the e-specs level, you have to bring down the e-spec level to the level of core. Only when that's the case you'll be able to buff core. Trying to push core to the e-specs level without drawbacks on the e-specs is an impossible task due to the fact that e-specs draw on core while core don't draw on the e-specs. Any suggestion that propose to buff core before having all e-specs brought down to the core level is an unreasonable suggestion.

    What you are really saying is that you feel elite specializations are doing too much damage in general and want to see that toned back. I disagree, I think their damage is not the issue, it is that they get to do that damage while being increasingly strong defensively as well. Now balance means to make things roughly equally strong, and the way you propose is to nerf everything down to where you think it should be damage wise (and perhaps ssurvivability wise), but another way is to buff the underperforming Core professions. At this point, there are less Core professions with noticeably less damage and defense than elite specializations, it makes more sense to target bolster those as I have suggested (simply aura buff to core that is lost on choosing an elite). That keeps the change simple and doesn’t require changing profession skills, as Mesmer core survivability is not really the issue here, Chrono before last patch was basically the same survivability, while only Mirage actually has had a much stronger defensive load out. I can easily make a Core build that lives long enough, but it lacks the damage to threaten opponents so dies in battles of attrition, or in PvE it just lacks the damage to not actually be a burden to the team.

    The issues seem to stem from the Clone mechanisms in my opinion, where their damage is inconsistent due to their design of running at an enemy to do damage and being a destroyable resource. Unfortunately, changing that means reworking the entirety of Core, and the best temporary fix is giving Core a flat damage and defense aura. It would be better for them to fix the systemic issue at the source however, and honestly that is my hope, but I would settle for merely an aura toggle (e.g. Supreme Illusionist - baseline Compounding traits and reduced Illusion recharge times, toggles off when choosing an elite specialization).

    If you choose to call everyone else flatly wrong though, it points to being unreasonable yourself. From my experience, most of the issues with powercreep as you see it is really just a matter that they wanted the game to be a bit easier in PvE since HoT was actually difficult for a large number of players, so they reduced difficulty and kept the same power of the professions. Problem is Core has always just been flat worse because elite specializations were just tacked onto their power rather than having drawbacks. Powering down every elite to core levels is simply not going to happen.

    Edit: Also, before HoT, there existed builds that were strong offensively and defensively, but in the context of the game being less powered overall, that was basically the same as now, excluding Core builds which just became flat worse than elite specs. There still exist solid defensive and offensive builds, just that Core of most professions simply cannot compete with their elite brethren, making them equal does not necessarily mean nerfing the existing stuff at all.

    Powering up core doesn't seem like something they financially prefer.

    Financial gains or losses have nothing to do with Core Mesmer being viable or balanced or not. It being powered up does not lose them anything except time to do the changes, a tiny bit of labor in comparison to that which is spent on even making a single skin for a mount.

    The reason they could not make changes to core was because they built the elite specializations on top of the base profession. This is essentially true for all the professions, but on many of them they changed the core extra ability bar completely or gave an entirely separate bar of skills that replaced a weapon bar. They did not do that with Mesmer elite specializations and this is the issue. By not separating out the ability skill set at least partially, the elites for Mesmer make it such that any changes to core would be affected by the elites.

    In short, they did not take the development of the elite specializations far enough for Mesmer. Now that they are trying to, people complain, but we are an extreme minority, less than 10% of the population, of which only 10% of us actually are complaining at all. So likely 1% if the entire population cares about whether Chrono wad screwed over or not, but by doing so they can go about actually balancing Core and Mirage without Chrono possibly breaking the entire profession again (hopefully... because the new shatters have their own name and thus may not inherent all the effects of the existing shatters in the future).

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    Ambush replace a normal attack, so it's only slightly stronger than a regular attack. Mirage Cloak allows it during a time where others might have actually had a dodge animation, but sacrifices being able to dodge as far or for as long. Your idea of a tradeoff is more of a nerf in most game modes, where as a major part of the issue with current design is that Core is simply too weak to compare numbers wise. For increasing damage for Core across the board, it would be better to give it a static aura buff for not specializing in Chrono or Mirage, rather than weaken the other two down to Core levels.

    Excuse me but this way to put things is wrong.

    Let's be clear, whatever increase in damage, defense or utility you give to the core, the e-specs will automatically benefit from it and go a step further from the core profession. Core in itself don't need any extra to put it to the level of the e-specs, the e-specs need some tune down. This is the case for mesmer like it is for many other professions.

    Mirage is not overperforming in any game mode, but the complaints remain in PvP environments because of a lack of counterplay opportunities, damage source being outside the player and thus not easily responded to, animations being masked a number of skills or having no animation at all. Ultimately, the profession relies on a damage source that is unreliable, and perhaps a bit too strong when it can all be lined up very well, but very inconsistent. This variance leads to inherently broken design issues, game modes in which a Mesmer is weaker always (WvW), or in builds that massively underperform (Mirage in PvE raids and group situations), or massively overperform (in 1v1 and duel situations, where long duration invulnerability and no animation damage sources and CC end up very strong, sPvP). To attempt to balance this weakness and power the devs have tried keeping the profession very squishy, and results in a very binary position, where a small tweak could end up making the profession too strong or far too weak.

    You don't get it, mirage is overperforming because it reach a higher defense and offense than core without any sacrifice. To put it simply it's as unhealthy as having life stealing with a heal based on a %age of damage done. The survivability gained will be bad if you build tanky but will shot throught the roof if you build glassy. Making it meaningless to build tanky. Mirage achieve the same thing: high survivability with glassy build and absolutely no reason to seek a tanky build for survivability.

    Contrary to what Levetti think, mirage cloack's loss of movement have a big counter part: you can attack/cast skills while you avoid damage. And this make a huge difference. The Ambushs just add powercreeped damage on top of that. There is a need to tune down this powercreep and reducing the number of clone which use as well the ambushs (another layer of powercreep) is amongst the "better" idea.

    One last point, the profession isn't "very squishy", in fact the mesmer have high amount of survivability in-built into it's weapon kits and special mechanism. Mesmers just play extremly glassy builds and glassy build with high survivability are bad design.

    What is sneaky about this is that almost all of these issues root back to the very design of clones, they assumed implementing IP baseline for Mesmer would make everything work, since the profession would no longer be as reliant on clones, but what it actually does is just make them as reliant as ever and need to be balanced around having one clone at all times. This in turn makes their abilities almost too strong when at 3 clones, and all of this because the clones have to travel to their target to do damage (irrelevant at melee range, and thus the uses of stealths and teleports to get around that weakness). Thus we end up in a situation where Mesmer remains unbalanced, too weak when clones are not up (a great deal of WvW, some PvE, and even in group situations in PvP), and maybe slightly too strong when they are up and able to remain so until they manage to hit the target.

    So here, you admit that the number of clones is to high but still you don't think reducing it for e-specs is a good idea and you'd rather have a static aura on core? This is madness.

    My proposed solution has been posted in many threads and should be viewed as it goes straight to the heart of the Mesmer issues (regardless of elite specialization).

    I'll repeat myself, you can't buff core to push it to the e-specs level, you have to bring down the e-spec level to the level of core. Only when that's the case you'll be able to buff core. Trying to push core to the e-specs level without drawbacks on the e-specs is an impossible task due to the fact that e-specs draw on core while core don't draw on the e-specs. Any suggestion that propose to buff core before having all e-specs brought down to the core level is an unreasonable suggestion.

    What you are really saying is that you feel elite specializations are doing too much damage in general and want to see that toned back. I disagree, I think their damage is not the issue, it is that they get to do that damage while being increasingly strong defensively as well. Now balance means to make things roughly equally strong, and the way you propose is to nerf everything down to where you think it should be damage wise (and perhaps ssurvivability wise), but another way is to buff the underperforming Core professions. At this point, there are less Core professions with noticeably less damage and defense than elite specializations, it makes more sense to target bolster those as I have suggested (simply aura buff to core that is lost on choosing an elite). That keeps the change simple and doesn’t require changing profession skills, as Mesmer core survivability is not really the issue here, Chrono before last patch was basically the same survivability, while only Mirage actually has had a much stronger defensive load out. I can easily make a Core build that lives long enough, but it lacks the damage to threaten opponents so dies in battles of attrition, or in PvE it just lacks the damage to not actually be a burden to the team.

    The issues seem to stem from the Clone mechanisms in my opinion, where their damage is inconsistent due to their design of running at an enemy to do damage and being a destroyable resource. Unfortunately, changing that means reworking the entirety of Core, and the best temporary fix is giving Core a flat damage and defense aura. It would be better for them to fix the systemic issue at the source however, and honestly that is my hope, but I would settle for merely an aura toggle (e.g. Supreme Illusionist - baseline Compounding traits and reduced Illusion recharge times, toggles off when choosing an elite specialization).

    If you choose to call everyone else flatly wrong though, it points to being unreasonable yourself. From my experience, most of the issues with powercreep as you see it is really just a matter that they wanted the game to be a bit easier in PvE since HoT was actually difficult for a large number of players, so they reduced difficulty and kept the same power of the professions. Problem is Core has always just been flat worse because elite specializations were just tacked onto their power rather than having drawbacks. Powering down every elite to core levels is simply not going to happen.

    Edit: Also, before HoT, there existed builds that were strong offensively and defensively, but in the context of the game being less powered overall, that was basically the same as now, excluding Core builds which just became flat worse than elite specs. There still exist solid defensive and offensive builds, just that Core of most professions simply cannot compete with their elite brethren, making them equal does not necessarily mean nerfing the existing stuff at all.

    Powering up core doesn't seem like something they financially prefer.

    Financial gains or losses have nothing to do with Core Mesmer being viable or balanced or not. It being powered up does not lose them anything except time to do the changes, a tiny bit of labor in comparison to that which is spent on even making a single skin for a mount.

    The reason they could not make changes to core was because they built the elite specializations on top of the base profession. This is essentially true for all the professions, but on many of them they changed the core extra ability bar completely or gave an entirely separate bar of skills that replaced a weapon bar. They did not do that with Mesmer elite specializations and this is the issue. By not separating out the ability skill set at least partially, the elites for Mesmer make it such that any changes to core would be affected by the elites.

    In short, they did not take the development of the elite specializations far enough for Mesmer. Now that they are trying to, people complain, but we are an extreme minority, less than 10% of the population, of which only 10% of us actually are complaining at all. So likely 1% if the entire population cares about whether Chrono was screwed over or not, but by doing so they can go about actually balancing Core and Mirage without Chrono possibly breaking the entire profession again (hopefully... because the new shatters have their own name and thus may not inherent all the effects of the existing shatters in the future).

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    Ambush replace a normal attack, so it's only slightly stronger than a regular attack. Mirage Cloak allows it during a time where others might have actually had a dodge animation, but sacrifices being able to dodge as far or for as long. Your idea of a tradeoff is more of a nerf in most game modes, where as a major part of the issue with current design is that Core is simply too weak to compare numbers wise. For increasing damage for Core across the board, it would be better to give it a static aura buff for not specializing in Chrono or Mirage, rather than weaken the other two down to Core levels.

    Excuse me but this way to put things is wrong.

    Let's be clear, whatever increase in damage, defense or utility you give to the core, the e-specs will automatically benefit from it and go a step further from the core profession. Core in itself don't need any extra to put it to the level of the e-specs, the e-specs need some tune down. This is the case for mesmer like it is for many other professions.

    Mirage is not overperforming in any game mode, but the complaints remain in PvP environments because of a lack of counterplay opportunities, damage source being outside the player and thus not easily responded to, animations being masked a number of skills or having no animation at all. Ultimately, the profession relies on a damage source that is unreliable, and perhaps a bit too strong when it can all be lined up very well, but very inconsistent. This variance leads to inherently broken design issues, game modes in which a Mesmer is weaker always (WvW), or in builds that massively underperform (Mirage in PvE raids and group situations), or massively overperform (in 1v1 and duel situations, where long duration invulnerability and no animation damage sources and CC end up very strong, sPvP). To attempt to balance this weakness and power the devs have tried keeping the profession very squishy, and results in a very binary position, where a small tweak could end up making the profession too strong or far too weak.

    You don't get it, mirage is overperforming because it reach a higher defense and offense than core without any sacrifice. To put it simply it's as unhealthy as having life stealing with a heal based on a %age of damage done. The survivability gained will be bad if you build tanky but will shot throught the roof if you build glassy. Making it meaningless to build tanky. Mirage achieve the same thing: high survivability with glassy build and absolutely no reason to seek a tanky build for survivability.

    Contrary to what Levetti think, mirage cloack's loss of movement have a big counter part: you can attack/cast skills while you avoid damage. And this make a huge difference. The Ambushs just add powercreeped damage on top of that. There is a need to tune down this powercreep and reducing the number of clone which use as well the ambushs (another layer of powercreep) is amongst the "better" idea.

    One last point, the profession isn't "very squishy", in fact the mesmer have high amount of survivability in-built into it's weapon kits and special mechanism. Mesmers just play extremly glassy builds and glassy build with high survivability are bad design.

    What is sneaky about this is that almost all of these issues root back to the very design of clones, they assumed implementing IP baseline for Mesmer would make everything work, since the profession would no longer be as reliant on clones, but what it actually does is just make them as reliant as ever and need to be balanced around having one clone at all times. This in turn makes their abilities almost too strong when at 3 clones, and all of this because the clones have to travel to their target to do damage (irrelevant at melee range, and thus the uses of stealths and teleports to get around that weakness). Thus we end up in a situation where Mesmer remains unbalanced, too weak when clones are not up (a great deal of WvW, some PvE, and even in group situations in PvP), and maybe slightly too strong when they are up and able to remain so until they manage to hit the target.

    So here, you admit that the number of clones is to high but still you don't think reducing it for e-specs is a good idea and you'd rather have a static aura on core? This is madness.

    My proposed solution has been posted in many threads and should be viewed as it goes straight to the heart of the Mesmer issues (regardless of elite specialization).

    I'll repeat myself, you can't buff core to push it to the e-specs level, you have to bring down the e-spec level to the level of core. Only when that's the case you'll be able to buff core. Trying to push core to the e-specs level without drawbacks on the e-specs is an impossible task due to the fact that e-specs draw on core while core don't draw on the e-specs. Any suggestion that propose to buff core before having all e-specs brought down to the core level is an unreasonable suggestion.

    What you are really saying is that you feel elite specializations are doing too much damage in general and want to see that toned back. I disagree, I think their damage is not the issue, it is that they get to do that damage while being increasingly strong defensively as well. Now balance means to make things roughly equally strong, and the way you propose is to nerf everything down to where you think it should be damage wise (and perhaps ssurvivability wise), but another way is to buff the underperforming Core professions. At this point, there are less Core professions with noticeably less damage and defense than elite specializations, it makes more sense to target bolster those as I have suggested (simply aura buff to core that is lost on choosing an elite). That keeps the change simple and doesn’t require changing profession skills, as Mesmer core survivability is not really the issue here, Chrono before last patch was basically the same survivability, while only Mirage actually has had a much stronger defensive load out. I can easily make a Core build that lives long enough, but it lacks the damage to threaten opponents so dies in battles of attrition, or in PvE it just lacks the damage to not actually be a burden to the team.

    The issues seem to stem from the Clone mechanisms in my opinion, where their damage is inconsistent due to their design of running at an enemy to do damage and being a destroyable resource. Unfortunately, changing that means reworking the entirety of Core, and the best temporary fix is giving Core a flat damage and defense aura. It would be better for them to fix the systemic issue at the source however, and honestly that is my hope, but I would settle for merely an aura toggle (e.g. Supreme Illusionist - baseline Compounding traits and reduced Illusion recharge times, toggles off when choosing an elite specialization).

    If you choose to call everyone else flatly wrong though, it points to being unreasonable yourself. From my experience, most of the issues with powercreep as you see it is really just a matter that they wanted the game to be a bit easier in PvE since HoT was actually difficult for a large number of players, so they reduced difficulty and kept the same power of the professions. Problem is Core has always just been flat worse because elite specializations were just tacked onto their power rather than having drawbacks. Powering down every elite to core levels is simply not going to happen.

    Edit: Also, before HoT, there existed builds that were strong offensively and defensively, but in the context of the game being less powered overall, that was basically the same as now, excluding Core builds which just became flat worse than elite specs. There still exist solid defensive and offensive builds, just that Core of most professions simply cannot compete with their elite brethren, making them equal does not necessarily mean nerfing the existing stuff at all.

    Powering up core doesn't seem like something they financially prefer.

    Financial gains or losses have nothing to do with Core Mesmer being viable or balanced or not. It being powered up does not lose them anything except time to do the changes, a tiny bit of labor in comparison to that which is spent on even making a single skin for a mount.

    The reason they could not make changes to core was because they built the elite specializations on top of the base profession. This is essentially true for all the professions, but on many of them they changed the core extra ability bar completely or gave an entirely separate bar of skills that replaced a weapon bar. They did not do that with Mesmer elite specializations and this is the issue. By not separating out the ability skill set at least partially, the elites for Mesmer make it such that any changes to core would be affected by the elites.

    In short, they did not take the development of the elite specializations far enough for Mesmer. Now that they are trying to, people complain, but we are an extreme minority, less than 10% of the population, of which only 10% of us actually are complaining at all. So likely 1% if the entire population cares about whether Chrono wad screwed over or not, but by doing so they can go about actually balancing Core and Mirage without Chrono possibly breaking the entire profession again (hopefully... because the new shatters have their own name and thus may not inherent all the effects of the existing shatters in the future).

    This I do agree with - chrono first being created as a band aid fix to all the core problems, and mirage feeling like it's half done.

    It does seem now a gradual picking apart of things to make each more unique as they should have been from the start, however the method and pace tends to leave a lot of damage in its wake (traits, skills etc), in addition to not knowing when or even if a satisfactory end goal will be reached based on the current and historical evidence from patches.

    I'm always hopeful, though I highly doubt the next patch will come close to reaching this goal and will rather be another few bits and pieces of the huge task for reworking many things on mesmer as a whole - the disappointing part being it could be a number of years before all aspects of this class come close to that point.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    Ambush replace a normal attack, so it's only slightly stronger than a regular attack. Mirage Cloak allows it during a time where others might have actually had a dodge animation, but sacrifices being able to dodge as far or for as long. Your idea of a tradeoff is more of a nerf in most game modes, where as a major part of the issue with current design is that Core is simply too weak to compare numbers wise. For increasing damage for Core across the board, it would be better to give it a static aura buff for not specializing in Chrono or Mirage, rather than weaken the other two down to Core levels.

    Excuse me but this way to put things is wrong.

    Let's be clear, whatever increase in damage, defense or utility you give to the core, the e-specs will automatically benefit from it and go a step further from the core profession. Core in itself don't need any extra to put it to the level of the e-specs, the e-specs need some tune down. This is the case for mesmer like it is for many other professions.

    Mirage is not overperforming in any game mode, but the complaints remain in PvP environments because of a lack of counterplay opportunities, damage source being outside the player and thus not easily responded to, animations being masked a number of skills or having no animation at all. Ultimately, the profession relies on a damage source that is unreliable, and perhaps a bit too strong when it can all be lined up very well, but very inconsistent. This variance leads to inherently broken design issues, game modes in which a Mesmer is weaker always (WvW), or in builds that massively underperform (Mirage in PvE raids and group situations), or massively overperform (in 1v1 and duel situations, where long duration invulnerability and no animation damage sources and CC end up very strong, sPvP). To attempt to balance this weakness and power the devs have tried keeping the profession very squishy, and results in a very binary position, where a small tweak could end up making the profession too strong or far too weak.

    You don't get it, mirage is overperforming because it reach a higher defense and offense than core without any sacrifice. To put it simply it's as unhealthy as having life stealing with a heal based on a %age of damage done. The survivability gained will be bad if you build tanky but will shot throught the roof if you build glassy. Making it meaningless to build tanky. Mirage achieve the same thing: high survivability with glassy build and absolutely no reason to seek a tanky build for survivability.

    Contrary to what Levetti think, mirage cloack's loss of movement have a big counter part: you can attack/cast skills while you avoid damage. And this make a huge difference. The Ambushs just add powercreeped damage on top of that. There is a need to tune down this powercreep and reducing the number of clone which use as well the ambushs (another layer of powercreep) is amongst the "better" idea.

    One last point, the profession isn't "very squishy", in fact the mesmer have high amount of survivability in-built into it's weapon kits and special mechanism. Mesmers just play extremly glassy builds and glassy build with high survivability are bad design.

    What is sneaky about this is that almost all of these issues root back to the very design of clones, they assumed implementing IP baseline for Mesmer would make everything work, since the profession would no longer be as reliant on clones, but what it actually does is just make them as reliant as ever and need to be balanced around having one clone at all times. This in turn makes their abilities almost too strong when at 3 clones, and all of this because the clones have to travel to their target to do damage (irrelevant at melee range, and thus the uses of stealths and teleports to get around that weakness). Thus we end up in a situation where Mesmer remains unbalanced, too weak when clones are not up (a great deal of WvW, some PvE, and even in group situations in PvP), and maybe slightly too strong when they are up and able to remain so until they manage to hit the target.

    So here, you admit that the number of clones is to high but still you don't think reducing it for e-specs is a good idea and you'd rather have a static aura on core? This is madness.

    My proposed solution has been posted in many threads and should be viewed as it goes straight to the heart of the Mesmer issues (regardless of elite specialization).

    I'll repeat myself, you can't buff core to push it to the e-specs level, you have to bring down the e-spec level to the level of core. Only when that's the case you'll be able to buff core. Trying to push core to the e-specs level without drawbacks on the e-specs is an impossible task due to the fact that e-specs draw on core while core don't draw on the e-specs. Any suggestion that propose to buff core before having all e-specs brought down to the core level is an unreasonable suggestion.

    What you are really saying is that you feel elite specializations are doing too much damage in general and want to see that toned back. I disagree, I think their damage is not the issue, it is that they get to do that damage while being increasingly strong defensively as well. Now balance means to make things roughly equally strong, and the way you propose is to nerf everything down to where you think it should be damage wise (and perhaps ssurvivability wise), but another way is to buff the underperforming Core professions. At this point, there are less Core professions with noticeably less damage and defense than elite specializations, it makes more sense to target bolster those as I have suggested (simply aura buff to core that is lost on choosing an elite). That keeps the change simple and doesn’t require changing profession skills, as Mesmer core survivability is not really the issue here, Chrono before last patch was basically the same survivability, while only Mirage actually has had a much stronger defensive load out. I can easily make a Core build that lives long enough, but it lacks the damage to threaten opponents so dies in battles of attrition, or in PvE it just lacks the damage to not actually be a burden to the team.

    The issues seem to stem from the Clone mechanisms in my opinion, where their damage is inconsistent due to their design of running at an enemy to do damage and being a destroyable resource. Unfortunately, changing that means reworking the entirety of Core, and the best temporary fix is giving Core a flat damage and defense aura. It would be better for them to fix the systemic issue at the source however, and honestly that is my hope, but I would settle for merely an aura toggle (e.g. Supreme Illusionist - baseline Compounding traits and reduced Illusion recharge times, toggles off when choosing an elite specialization).

    If you choose to call everyone else flatly wrong though, it points to being unreasonable yourself. From my experience, most of the issues with powercreep as you see it is really just a matter that they wanted the game to be a bit easier in PvE since HoT was actually difficult for a large number of players, so they reduced difficulty and kept the same power of the professions. Problem is Core has always just been flat worse because elite specializations were just tacked onto their power rather than having drawbacks. Powering down every elite to core levels is simply not going to happen.

    Edit: Also, before HoT, there existed builds that were strong offensively and defensively, but in the context of the game being less powered overall, that was basically the same as now, excluding Core builds which just became flat worse than elite specs. There still exist solid defensive and offensive builds, just that Core of most professions simply cannot compete with their elite brethren, making them equal does not necessarily mean nerfing the existing stuff at all.

    Powering up core doesn't seem like something they financially prefer.

    Financial gains or losses have nothing to do with Core Mesmer being viable or balanced or not. It being powered up does not lose them anything except time to do the changes, a tiny bit of labor in comparison to that which is spent on even making a single skin for a mount.

    The reason they could not make changes to core was because they built the elite specializations on top of the base profession. This is essentially true for all the professions, but on many of them they changed the core extra ability bar completely or gave an entirely separate bar of skills that replaced a weapon bar. They did not do that with Mesmer elite specializations and this is the issue. By not separating out the ability skill set at least partially, the elites for Mesmer make it such that any changes to core would be affected by the elites.

    In short, they did not take the development of the elite specializations far enough for Mesmer. Now that they are trying to, people complain, but we are an extreme minority, less than 10% of the population, of which only 10% of us actually are complaining at all. So likely 1% if the entire population cares about whether Chrono wad screwed over or not, but by doing so they can go about actually balancing Core and Mirage without Chrono possibly breaking the entire profession again (hopefully... because the new shatters have their own name and thus may not inherent all the effects of the existing shatters in the future).

    This I do agree with - chrono first being created as a band aid fix to all the core problems, and mirage feeling like it's half done.

    It does seem now a gradual picking apart of things to make each more unique as they should have been from the start, however the method and pace tends to leave a lot of damage in its wake (traits, skills etc), in addition to not knowing when or even if a satisfactory end goal will be reached based on the current and historical evidence from patches.

    I'm always hopeful, though I highly doubt the next patch will come close to reaching this goal and will rather be another few bits and pieces of the huge task for reworking many things on mesmer as a whole - the disappointing part being it could be a number of years before all aspects of this class come close to that point.

    A point worth noting is that until recently all the design for Mesmer and it’s Elites have been designed and balanced as a whole, this past patch has been the first steps to undo the damages done to the profession because of it’s Elites. So in short, these have been huge changes overall, but necessary to create space for further changes and individualizations of the different specializations.

    Many of us have even stated that Chrono vs Mirage vs Core was just the same thing with slightly different flavors. This is sadly a truth that needs breaking so we can actually have some variety in our builds. Not every single Mesmer needs to be chain shattering and running deceptive evasion, it is nice to create some build variety.

  • Vincenzo.3145Vincenzo.3145 Member ✭✭✭

    Because people cry about it in PvP and don't care to bring things that their class has that are specifically DESIGNED to deal with things that cause "grief".

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    @Vincenzo.3145 said:
    Because people cry about it in PvP and don't care to bring things that their class has that are specifically DESIGNED to deal with things that cause "grief".

    No one cries about Chrono in PvP. And I fail to see how complaints about Mirage would or should affect a different elite spec.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Delofasht.4231 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    Ambush replace a normal attack, so it's only slightly stronger than a regular attack. Mirage Cloak allows it during a time where others might have actually had a dodge animation, but sacrifices being able to dodge as far or for as long. Your idea of a tradeoff is more of a nerf in most game modes, where as a major part of the issue with current design is that Core is simply too weak to compare numbers wise. For increasing damage for Core across the board, it would be better to give it a static aura buff for not specializing in Chrono or Mirage, rather than weaken the other two down to Core levels.

    Excuse me but this way to put things is wrong.

    Let's be clear, whatever increase in damage, defense or utility you give to the core, the e-specs will automatically benefit from it and go a step further from the core profession. Core in itself don't need any extra to put it to the level of the e-specs, the e-specs need some tune down. This is the case for mesmer like it is for many other professions.

    Mirage is not overperforming in any game mode, but the complaints remain in PvP environments because of a lack of counterplay opportunities, damage source being outside the player and thus not easily responded to, animations being masked a number of skills or having no animation at all. Ultimately, the profession relies on a damage source that is unreliable, and perhaps a bit too strong when it can all be lined up very well, but very inconsistent. This variance leads to inherently broken design issues, game modes in which a Mesmer is weaker always (WvW), or in builds that massively underperform (Mirage in PvE raids and group situations), or massively overperform (in 1v1 and duel situations, where long duration invulnerability and no animation damage sources and CC end up very strong, sPvP). To attempt to balance this weakness and power the devs have tried keeping the profession very squishy, and results in a very binary position, where a small tweak could end up making the profession too strong or far too weak.

    You don't get it, mirage is overperforming because it reach a higher defense and offense than core without any sacrifice. To put it simply it's as unhealthy as having life stealing with a heal based on a %age of damage done. The survivability gained will be bad if you build tanky but will shot throught the roof if you build glassy. Making it meaningless to build tanky. Mirage achieve the same thing: high survivability with glassy build and absolutely no reason to seek a tanky build for survivability.

    Contrary to what Levetti think, mirage cloack's loss of movement have a big counter part: you can attack/cast skills while you avoid damage. And this make a huge difference. The Ambushs just add powercreeped damage on top of that. There is a need to tune down this powercreep and reducing the number of clone which use as well the ambushs (another layer of powercreep) is amongst the "better" idea.

    One last point, the profession isn't "very squishy", in fact the mesmer have high amount of survivability in-built into it's weapon kits and special mechanism. Mesmers just play extremly glassy builds and glassy build with high survivability are bad design.

    What is sneaky about this is that almost all of these issues root back to the very design of clones, they assumed implementing IP baseline for Mesmer would make everything work, since the profession would no longer be as reliant on clones, but what it actually does is just make them as reliant as ever and need to be balanced around having one clone at all times. This in turn makes their abilities almost too strong when at 3 clones, and all of this because the clones have to travel to their target to do damage (irrelevant at melee range, and thus the uses of stealths and teleports to get around that weakness). Thus we end up in a situation where Mesmer remains unbalanced, too weak when clones are not up (a great deal of WvW, some PvE, and even in group situations in PvP), and maybe slightly too strong when they are up and able to remain so until they manage to hit the target.

    So here, you admit that the number of clones is to high but still you don't think reducing it for e-specs is a good idea and you'd rather have a static aura on core? This is madness.

    My proposed solution has been posted in many threads and should be viewed as it goes straight to the heart of the Mesmer issues (regardless of elite specialization).

    I'll repeat myself, you can't buff core to push it to the e-specs level, you have to bring down the e-spec level to the level of core. Only when that's the case you'll be able to buff core. Trying to push core to the e-specs level without drawbacks on the e-specs is an impossible task due to the fact that e-specs draw on core while core don't draw on the e-specs. Any suggestion that propose to buff core before having all e-specs brought down to the core level is an unreasonable suggestion.

    What you are really saying is that you feel elite specializations are doing too much damage in general and want to see that toned back. I disagree, I think their damage is not the issue, it is that they get to do that damage while being increasingly strong defensively as well. Now balance means to make things roughly equally strong, and the way you propose is to nerf everything down to where you think it should be damage wise (and perhaps ssurvivability wise), but another way is to buff the underperforming Core professions. At this point, there are less Core professions with noticeably less damage and defense than elite specializations, it makes more sense to target bolster those as I have suggested (simply aura buff to core that is lost on choosing an elite). That keeps the change simple and doesn’t require changing profession skills, as Mesmer core survivability is not really the issue here, Chrono before last patch was basically the same survivability, while only Mirage actually has had a much stronger defensive load out. I can easily make a Core build that lives long enough, but it lacks the damage to threaten opponents so dies in battles of attrition, or in PvE it just lacks the damage to not actually be a burden to the team.

    The issues seem to stem from the Clone mechanisms in my opinion, where their damage is inconsistent due to their design of running at an enemy to do damage and being a destroyable resource. Unfortunately, changing that means reworking the entirety of Core, and the best temporary fix is giving Core a flat damage and defense aura. It would be better for them to fix the systemic issue at the source however, and honestly that is my hope, but I would settle for merely an aura toggle (e.g. Supreme Illusionist - baseline Compounding traits and reduced Illusion recharge times, toggles off when choosing an elite specialization).

    If you choose to call everyone else flatly wrong though, it points to being unreasonable yourself. From my experience, most of the issues with powercreep as you see it is really just a matter that they wanted the game to be a bit easier in PvE since HoT was actually difficult for a large number of players, so they reduced difficulty and kept the same power of the professions. Problem is Core has always just been flat worse because elite specializations were just tacked onto their power rather than having drawbacks. Powering down every elite to core levels is simply not going to happen.

    Edit: Also, before HoT, there existed builds that were strong offensively and defensively, but in the context of the game being less powered overall, that was basically the same as now, excluding Core builds which just became flat worse than elite specs. There still exist solid defensive and offensive builds, just that Core of most professions simply cannot compete with their elite brethren, making them equal does not necessarily mean nerfing the existing stuff at all.

    Powering up core doesn't seem like something they financially prefer.

    Financial gains or losses have nothing to do with Core Mesmer being viable or balanced or not. It being powered up does not lose them anything except time to do the changes, a tiny bit of labor in comparison to that which is spent on even making a single skin for a mount.

    The reason they could not make changes to core was because they built the elite specializations on top of the base profession. This is essentially true for all the professions, but on many of them they changed the core extra ability bar completely or gave an entirely separate bar of skills that replaced a weapon bar. They did not do that with Mesmer elite specializations and this is the issue. By not separating out the ability skill set at least partially, the elites for Mesmer make it such that any changes to core would be affected by the elites.

    In short, they did not take the development of the elite specializations far enough for Mesmer. Now that they are trying to, people complain, but we are an extreme minority, less than 10% of the population, of which only 10% of us actually are complaining at all. So likely 1% if the entire population cares about whether Chrono wad screwed over or not, but by doing so they can go about actually balancing Core and Mirage without Chrono possibly breaking the entire profession again (hopefully... because the new shatters have their own name and thus may not inherent all the effects of the existing shatters in the future).

    Core is f2p. Elite specs are not.

  • Hiraga Taichiru.1580Hiraga Taichiru.1580 Member ✭✭
    edited August 7, 2019

    well here is the thing, im not sure why people complain about mirage, however mirage has a good trait for clone preserving (defending) which would affect chronomancer much better than mirage atm. But wait guys did you notice something.. are... are we in a never ending while loop?
    Anet buff class and nerf another , stays like this for 3 months, then the nerfed class get buffed, also the buffed class get nerfed. when this is going to End ?
    it feels like we are in a while loop in a program that cannot get the satisfied condition.
    Also this is for ANET devs, just play chrono in PvP or WvW, look how u get killed many times , by some other classes, especially with condi classes and tell us how it feels, just don't listen to people complaining , how about you try play your own game?...
    =====My thoughts====
    also fix the wells and rework it to another type of skill, cuz if u ask me , controlling time would be a fantastic trait in a game and wells are not for that. You should put it as a "Gates" (Gates look more suitable for controlling time than wells) or something, idk you come up with this whats more. I think chrono should have access to another utility portal skill, or swap places with a foe, and since YOU made chrono a Clone based, then every skills (the reworked skills) should have benefits from having active clones

    Chrono feels lonely/unhappy/unwanted in every competitive mode, in fact some people got kicked off the squad just to fill it with another FB/Scrapper/herald. Why ?

    Anyway people i've waited enough for this to get fixed, but ANET devs seems to not care about the broken system they just made, and not willing to fix it soon enough . with that been said, im leaving this time for good. Good bye all.

    Current Anet Devs likes the Thief class and dislike the Mesmer class, Haven't you noticed? (RIP Chrono) (Bring Back Chrono) (Make Chrono playable)

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just going to throw this out there .... we are the test and live server ... Willing to bet they are 'testing' something to reintroduce it in a different way later. Unfortunately, later is like ... months and months away.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Every other spec has one drawback. Or two but one is mitigated like Impact Savant and Fatal Frenzy coming with bonuses and stat decreases. This is just two tradeoffs for no discernible reason.

    Edit: please restore illusionary persona.

    not you, no one...the only possible reasson is a "dark hidden plan" of anet to "setup" specs for an incoming expansion... you know, an x-file...

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Just going to throw this out there .... we are the test and live server ... Willing to bet they are 'testing' something to reintroduce it in a different way later. Unfortunately, later is like ... months and months away.

    Or perhaps this is just their version of a tradeoff to the shatter uptime from alacrity+ CS and there will be no recourse. Chrono is stuck this way forever. Doesn't matter that the most harmed by the change were already struggling to be useful.

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