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Why DuoQ Should be Removed for Season 18 and Never Come Back


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PvP population isn't low for no reason. It just can't grow with current system. It will only decrease. As I remember A LOT of PvPers left day after ArenaNet deleted team queue. While few days before we were fighting agains dozens of teams. Everyday we met other pvp teams. PvP felt alive these days. And then it all was gone. Just like that.

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@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

@"NotoriousNaru.1705" said:Sure I don't mind team queue but look at all the other comments of vet players talking about how it was back when team q/solo q were a thing. Team q was great and solo qs sucked. Even those playing solo ended up going to the team q. Know why? Because of exactly what I tried to tell you and you failed to understand: match quality. The way I see it is if they can create that system again go for it BUT if they can't the ONLY option absolutely CANNOT be solo only because those who do care about winning and competing will leave and that is bad for everyone and I dont mean just legend players i mean majority of plat players and some of gold too.

I'm giving you valid reasons as to why solo is objectively worse. All you're giving me is how the plat 2-3+ players are bad and cheat but what you fail to realize is thats going to happen no matter what, infact more griefing will happen in solo. You mentioned legend duos dodging each other for easier games but based on your logic wouldn't that be worse when legend/plat mix teams dodge each other and now they are farming those same low rated players but now its 100% of the time rather than carrying some of them occasionally? I just don't see your point. You want both qs back but if you do some research you will come to realize everyone will flock to team q, even solo players.

Then SoloQ dies, I guess? If TeamQ is in your opinion, the better way to queue; people migrating over from Solos would be nothing but a good thing. Just having the option to go back and forth is important, because sometimes people don't want to LFG, or they don't have the team they normally play with available, so they SoloQ. Really, there's reason to play both gamemodes, and even if all this speculation proves to be right, SoloQ falling out of favor in place of TeamQ in a team-based game isn't exactly a bad thing. No matter which option people choose to favor, they at least have the option to be matched with similarly coordinated players. Merged queues take away that choice.

Anyway, I played between Season 9 and now, and like I said in the OP the means for wintrading have changed. In my opinion, it's much worse now than it was with SoloQ. With SoloQ the matchmaking is less tractable. It's harder to get two people on the same team, who don't want to be on the same team, and that's just a fact; basic math.

You look at the LBs now and you have multiple alts with upwards of 80% winrates. It wasn't like that in SoloQ, not even close. So you can tell me all you want really, that SoloQ will be worse. I'm more inclined to go by the results I physically witness, than than the word of the "scissors to the paper" as someone put it earlier.

I'd like to see this:

  • Removed Ranked Conquest.
  • Keep Unranked Conquest.
  • Add Unranked 2v2 que.
  • All Rating & Badge Icon play and rewards per season, are shifted into a new system concerning ATs. This way we can get rotating 5v5 ATs and 2v2 ATs.

Pros:

  • We get a new solid game mode out of this.
  • We get to have 5 man que back while playing seriously for rating.
  • With serious team play back in the picture, we get a real reason to form guilds around the purpose of spvp again.
  • Having reason to form spvp guilds again, encourages team play & practice, which in general encourages game mode interest & activity.

Cons:

  • Nothing, outside of ignorant pleb complaints. And even the ones who complain, would figure out by the end of the week, why this system was better.
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@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:In a duo queue, the Matchmaker the mmr the highest rated player. It has been like this since season 5. I know many top players, myself included that would just stop if they removed duo, due to how unbearably low the skill in most games are.

Queued on alt yesterday, 1670 something in eu. I had a mirage camping every beast in Forest, even dying to it once. Me winning 1v2 against Firebrand scourge. Blowing up midfights in 2-5 seconds.

Duo makes the game bearable for me.

This is from the wiki for the match maker. Stop spreading false information:Scoring/Rank/@distanceScore added or removed based on the distance between the potential roster's average rank and the average rank of all selected rosters, including both teams.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Matchmaking_Algorithm

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I'd like to see this:

  • Removed Ranked Conquest.
  • Keep Unranked Conquest.
  • Add Unranked 2v2 que.
  • All Rating & Badge Icon play and rewards per season, are shifted into a new system concerning ATs. This way we can get rotating 5v5 ATs and 2v2 ATs.

Pros:

  • We get a new solid game mode out of this.
  • We get to have 5 man que back while playing seriously for rating.
  • With serious team play back in the picture, we get a real reason to form guilds around the purpose of spvp again.
  • Having reason to form spvp guilds again, encourages team play & practice, which in general encourages game mode interest & activity.

Cons:

  • Nothing, outside of ignorant pleb complaints. And even the ones who complain, would figure out by the end of the week, why this system was better.

Idunno. It's hard for me personally to get on board with that because ATs and are too exclusive and too infrequent. If that was changed, then maybe I could see it. Even if; rotating TeamQs of varying sizes could accomplish the same thing while still allowing binge-play, me thinks.

What matters most to me is knocking all those alts off the LB, queuing up for a challenge, and not having to deal with third-party hurdles. Basically, I want to get better and be rewarded for getting better, have a fun and fair challenge, and not be stopped by some broken feature. Merged queues have ruined that for me, and as a result; i'm most concerned with those right now.

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@Multicolorhipster.9751

Check out this suggestion from Faux:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Loki.1763 said:No F2P in RankedNo rewards for losing

I don't see an issue with F2P. I think it is good to bring in new players.

The only downside with the current implementation is people can make multiple accounts, however the abusers can still do the same thing with full accounts. Enough people have quit the game that it isn't hard to get a full account. I'd rather make people use an authenticated account to a phone number to play ranked. They can use that number for as many guild wars 2 accounts as they want, but they all share that number's rating gain loss.

^ This

Something like that needs to be done at this point. Though I'd also add in that, only one account that is tied to the same phone, can be allowed a position on the leaderboard. The other accounts can still play and get rating/badge icon, but they never show on the leaderboard and are not eligible for end season rewards as such. This would help a lot vs. account sharing and leaderboard position blocking.

Like really, Anet needs to work on this. We need some system of verification that makes sure a single player gets to have a single account in the leaderboards. Or at the very least, it would make it such a pain the ass to have so many alts, that it wouldn't be worth most people's time to try and rig them up.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:In a duo queue, the Matchmaker the mmr the highest rated player.

I have never seen Arenanet ever confirm this. The only thing I've seen BenP say is that the matchmaker tries average the team's collective rating.

They did actually try that during one of the earlier seasons because everyone was complaining about smurfing lol. The end result was bad though. Treating duo rating as only the higher rated player ended up causing a lot more problems than it helped. They did indeed put it back to duos being treated as the average of the two players. I had JUST gone through this entire forum an posted quotes from Ben & Cal, in a different thread, that shows that the system is using the average of the two players and not just the high rated rating.

Why people are confused on this, I have no idea. It's kind of obvious how the algorithm is working when you just pay attention to rating gains & losses between yourself and your duo, if one of you is significantly higher or lower rated than the other.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Why people are confused on this, I have no idea. It's kind of obvious how the algorithm is working when you just pay attention to rating gains & losses between yourself and your duo, if one of you is significantly higher or lower rated than the other.That would require thinking instead of parroting the same excuse for losing over and over regardless of its veracity.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:In a duo queue, the Matchmaker the mmr the highest rated player. It has been like this since season 5. I know many top players, myself included that would just stop if they removed duo, due to how unbearably low the skill in most games are.

Actually this is just a common myth. There's absolutely nothing to suggest that it only uses the rating of the higher rated player, but there is evidence to suggest an average of the two ratings is used.

Like, at Plat2 if I DuoQ with a gold 1, I get very little rating from wins with that gold and get smashed with huge rating deductions for losses. Since rating is tied to the other players in your match, it shouldn't be unreasonable to assume they're all a lower average rating. Unless you mean to suggest that single gold 1 player is the cause, but if that's the case; that means they're just being dragged along to essentially punish my team.

That also begs the question: If there's the potential to gain less/lose more, and the higher rated player's ranking is always used, why would the top player for this season be handicapping themself?

Most games already look like +5-10 -15-20. Making it even harder to climb is just ridiculous.

If we're going by rating gain/loss alone, SoloQ actually allows for more because the rating of the other players determines that, and there's objectively more rating disparity with DuoQ than without it.

Queued on alt yesterday, 1670 something in eu. I had a mirage camping every beast in Forest, even dying to it once. Me winning 1v2 against Firebrand scourge. Blowing up midfights in 2-5 seconds.

Duo makes the game bearable for me.

Oh yeah, winning 1v2s, blowing up midfights. That sounds tragic. On further consideration, I think I see your point. It's a hard-knock SoloQ life.

A couple months ago, I had dug through this entire subforum, quoting conversations between Ben & Cal, in response to the question of: "Does duo que use higher rated player's rating? or does it use the average rating of both players?"

Long story short, I'm not going to dig up those quotes again, but I can say that the duo que system does use the average rating between the two players qued. So if you have a 1600 with a 1400, it ques that duo has a 1500 duo.

People who believe it uses the higher player's rating as the duo rating, are remembering a patch from a very very very long time ago.i remember that thread too
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Honestly just let all the 'top' duoqs leave, no sense in catering to 20 people with a system that alienates thousands of others.

Why would you even cater to people that blatantly break your pvp mode and make it completely uncompetitive?

New 2v2 ranked ladder and soloq ranked ladder. Play with a friend or compete on your own, play with 5 friends in the ATs. That would be very healthy for this game.

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All ANET would need to do is prevent plat 3 players or 1650 rating or higher from Duo queuing with anyone .

It used to be that plat 1 or higher could not Duo que together, and it would be a healthy halfway point to make sure the top 25 spots go to players that can actually carry.

It would be awesome to see those top 25 go up against 2 plat 1 or 2 teams for those final spots on the top of the ladder. Then less experience would be lost every game and more experience could be gained.

Making it to plat 1 or plat 2 as a Duo que should be high enough, but if you want to be legendary, then you will have to carry those final games.

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The last week/weekend of the season was pretty ugly with the duo queues that's when they come out on full force and full cheese is in effect I would like to see them disable duo queuing at a certain level during the last 2 weeks because it can give the casuals a fighting chance to make it far in pvp and not be left with a taste of lameness towards the end of a season

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You do realize they've tried this before, right?

When Anet deleted team que, the community died.

Then Anet removed duo, and PvP altogether almost died. One season later they were quick to bring it back.

Blaming duos is just a scapegoat bad players use. You wouldn't be any higher on the ladder if it was solo only, all that'd change is you'd complain about something else. Get good and stop crying.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Multicolorhipster.9751

Check out this suggestion from Faux:

@Loki.1763 said:No F2P in RankedNo rewards for losing

I don't see an issue with F2P. I think it is good to bring in new players.

The only downside with the current implementation is people can make multiple accounts, however the abusers can still do the same thing with full accounts. Enough people have quit the game that it isn't hard to get a full account. I'd rather make people use an authenticated account to a phone number to play ranked. They can use that number for as many guild wars 2 accounts as they want, but they all share that number's rating gain loss.

^ This

Something like that needs to be done at this point. Though I'd also add in that, only one account that is tied to the same phone, can be allowed a position on the leaderboard. The other accounts can still play and get rating/badge icon, but they never show on the leaderboard and are not eligible for end season rewards as such. This would help a lot vs. account sharing and leaderboard position blocking.

Like really, Anet needs to work on this. We need some system of verification that makes sure a single player gets to have a single account in the leaderboards. Or at the very least, it would make it such a pain the kitten to have so many alts, that it wouldn't be worth most people's time to try and rig them up.

I remember that one. It would definitely be appreciated if they threw us a bone like that. Having over 10 alts or boosted accounts from the same person in the top 25 is just ugly.

@"witcher.3197" said:You do realize they've tried this before, right?

When Anet deleted team que, the community died.

Then Anet removed duo, and PvP altogether almost died. One season later they were quick to bring it back.

Yes, i'm aware. DuoQ has been tried twice and failed both times for the same reasons. The decline is population has been steady and hasn't changed at all with DuoQ being reintroduced.

Removing TeamQ, imo; was a mistake nobody asked for, and; arguably started the decline. If the choice is between a merged DuoQ and competitive TeamQ, i'm going to wager TeamQ would win every time. You have more fair matchmaking, next to zero manipulation/wintrading, and more friends to play with than if you were DuoQing.

Blaming duos is just a scapegoat bad players use. You wouldn't be any higher on the ladder if it was solo only, all that'd change is you'd complain about something else. Get good and stop crying.

Blaming DuoQs for losses is one thing, blaming DuoQs for poor match quality is another. A 500-50 win where a top DuoQ carries a team of low golds and silvers is just as bad as a loss from the same thing. Players of vastly different skill levels shouldn't be in the same match, and if they are; they should be spread out evenly among teams.

To expect anyone to take anything away from being carried or rolled by two players that are several hundred rating above them(At least on their main accounts xd) is just totally unreasonable. That's not how getting good works.

EDIT: Wait hol' up, "ONE" season? 13-9 = 4. DuoQ took 4 seasons to come back.

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I think overall Solo Q is fairer, while Duo gives too many advantages to a coordinated high lvl duo that can not really be justified. I finished top 25 on the LB several times myself, including the last two seasons, and can only say that difference between having a competent duo partner to coordinate with and going solo is immense, and the former variant is almost a requirement for hitting legendary. the However it is also true what has been mentioned before: At this point the match quality is so low and the skill disparaties between the 10 players of one match are so great that Solo Q wouldn't really change the general feeling much. No kind of Q system could ever fix this, because the population is simply too small. Even a full team Q would barely ever create competitive matches on a high level these days.

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@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

@"NotoriousNaru.1705" said:Sure I don't mind team queue but look at all the other comments of vet players talking about how it was back when team q/solo q were a thing. Team q was great and solo qs sucked. Even those playing solo ended up going to the team q. Know why? Because of exactly what I tried to tell you and you failed to understand: match quality. The way I see it is if they can create that system again go for it BUT if they can't the ONLY option absolutely CANNOT be solo only because those who do care about winning and competing will leave and that is bad for everyone and I dont mean just legend players i mean majority of plat players and some of gold too.

I'm giving you valid reasons as to why solo is objectively worse. All you're giving me is how the plat 2-3+ players are bad and cheat but what you fail to realize is thats going to happen no matter what, infact more griefing will happen in solo. You mentioned legend duos dodging each other for easier games but based on your logic wouldn't that be worse when legend/plat mix teams dodge each other and now they are farming those same low rated players but now its 100% of the time rather than carrying some of them occasionally? I just don't see your point. You want both qs back but if you do some research you will come to realize everyone will flock to team q, even solo players.

Then SoloQ dies, I guess? If TeamQ is in your opinion, the better way to queue; people migrating over from Solos would be nothing but a good thing. Just having the option to go back and forth is important, because sometimes people don't want to LFG, or they don't have the team they normally play with available, so they SoloQ. Really, there's reason to play both gamemodes, and even if all this speculation proves to be right, SoloQ falling out of favor in place of TeamQ in a team-based game isn't exactly a bad thing. No matter which option people choose to favor, they at least have the option to be matched with similarly coordinated players. Merged queues take away that choice.

Anyway, I played between Season 9 and now, and like I said in the OP the means for wintrading have changed. In my opinion, it's much worse now than it was with SoloQ. With SoloQ the matchmaking is less tractable. It's harder to get two people on the same team, who don't want to be on the same team, and that's just a fact; basic math.

You look at the LBs now and you have multiple alts with upwards of 80% winrates. It wasn't like that in SoloQ, not even close. So you can tell me all you want really, that SoloQ will be worse. I'm more inclined to go by the results I physically witness, than than the word of the "scissors to the paper" as someone put it earlier.

You literally don't even know what you want. Your OP is fueled by emotions and wanting to witchhunt the big bad plat/legend players for winning more but then you say things like "let solo q die" but if team q were a thing you'd be in here complaining about how good players play with good players and 500-0 you everytime. Maybe make a better argument for team qs instead of wanting to go back to something that doesn't work with the logic of "waa good players win their winrates high fix it anet!" but really those at the top will be at the top no matter what system you put them in.

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@stick.7258 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:In a duo queue, the Matchmaker the mmr the highest rated player. It has been like this since season 5. I know many top players, myself included that would just stop if they removed duo, due to how unbearably low the skill in most games are.

Queued on alt yesterday, 1670 something in eu. I had a mirage camping every beast in Forest, even dying to it once. Me winning 1v2 against Firebrand scourge. Blowing up midfights in 2-5 seconds.

Duo makes the game bearable for me.

This is probably what most higher tier duo's think, at least i heard this expressed my multiple players.I do wonder if it is the case, cuz of low-pop, that duo quers have higher change of winning. But if this is the case i wonder if it would be fair to give them a small penalty, like split rank points gained from victory between both.

I am not sure that duo que takes the rating of the highest player. Unless Anet explicitly stated that, I would not assume it is. The only thing I remember Anet saying is that duo queuing does not have a higher winning chance, but that also discounts match manipulation and does not mention the standard of deviation of the results (which if I guess it would be staggering).

I know that most games take the rating of the highest player. That would be a good compromise. As far as I know, it is not the case.

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 is it the case?

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Solos only ranked queue AND a duos + solos ranked queue would solve this. Forcing solos who only want to compete against other solos to be matched with duos IS ridiculous. A solos only queue and duos only queue with some incentive for others to queue with duos. Forcing solos who do not want to compete with duos is stupid.

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Dude who even in the world is this OP. This entire post is an priori argument, and thus a logical fallacy with poor evidence.

If ranked duo Q goes away—I am one of those top tier players that will 100% quit the game.

If they do not start implementing strategies that encourage playing conquest how it was meant to be played within the next few months—I’m going to quit the game.

I’m talking about like 5 man Q’s seperate from solo ranked with a team leaderboard, and rewards that are scaled up from MaT rewards.

Solo Q is cancer. It’s absolute cancer. It makes playing ranked pointless because you’re basically rolling dice. No human being wants to take risks that are predicated on chance. That’s what ranked solo Q is.

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