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The new PvP meta - whine till a class is deleted.


Kylden Ar.3724

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LMAO took them 4 years to notice a "degenerate" trait.

What really happened was they nerfed Mesmer entirely to the ground in the last few months, that so few traits and playstyles remain playable. Now the devs continue taking away the last toys for Mesmers, even as Mesmers scrape the bottom of the barrel to try to stay competitive.

Ironically the more they nerf Mesmers, the more "degenerate" they get. So how healthy and successful were the other "rebalancing" acts? As they continue to break Chronomancer into unplayable mess, expect many more Mesmers to switch to the more annoying Mirage that people hate more.

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@"Zin Dau.1749" said:LMAO took them 4 years to notice a "degenerate" trait.

What really happened was they nerfed Mesmer entirely to the ground in the last few months, that so few traits and playstyles remain playable. Now the devs continue taking away the last toys for Mesmers, even as Mesmers scrape the bottom of the barrel to try to stay competitive.

Ironically the more they nerf Mesmers, the more "degenerate" they get. So how healthy and successful were the other "rebalancing" acts? As they continue to break Chronomancer into unplayable mess, expect many more Mesmers to switch to the more annoying Mirage that people hate more.

Or, and hear me out here, something that was previously not problematic rose to become a large issue as other builds left the spotlight. There are always many things like that in any game, but they simply aren't an issue because of how rarely they're seen or because something else, that is then later on nerfed, used to keep them in check. Stop crying about your class being nerfed.

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@"shadowpass.4236" said:snip

I mean, I could kill plenty of plat guys with core mesmer and they would complain "core mesmer op" in NA, where I have 300 ping.

I also had a small duel with MLGKornos(?)'s reaper but some core guard ganked him so we never got to finish that duel.

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@"Blocki.4931" said:

Or, and hear me out here, something that was previously not problematic rose to become a large issue as other builds left the spotlight. There are always many things like that in any game, but they simply aren't an issue because of how rarely they're seen or because something else, that is then later on nerfed, used to keep them in check. Stop crying about your class being nerfed.

Or hear me out here, they removed all the fun aspects of a class, leaving the "degenerate" aspects, such that players have no other choice than to stack up and rely on the narrow playstyle by devs 'grand vision' . So thanks for removing the fun aspects as long as losers cry enough.

And hear me out here, sore losers will always complain about this or that class or ability. Complain until the only viable build to remain Is the stunlock build. So good job on complaining about the wrong things.

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@"apharma.3741" said:The shocking thing to me was seeing it referred to as "degenerate play". That's not the kind of professionalism I'd expect from a company, let alone a representative of the company that enabled this despite many warnings by their community for over 2 years that lowering cool downs was a bad idea.

The term "Degenerate play" is used in all sorts of competitive scenes. It has more than it's place in the professionalism you involve.

If it's taken as a insult like I'm seeing a few of people actually doing so, you've got the wrong idea of the term and should look it up.

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@Zin Dau.1749 said:

@"Blocki.4931" said:

Or, and hear me out here, something that was previously not problematic rose to become a large issue as other builds left the spotlight. There are always many things like that in any game, but they simply aren't an issue because of how rarely they're seen or because something else, that is then later on nerfed, used to keep them in check. Stop crying about your class being nerfed.

Or hear me out here, they removed all the fun aspects of a class, leaving the "degenerate" aspects, such that players have no other choice than to stack up and rely on the narrow playstyle by devs 'grand vision' . So thanks for removing the fun aspects as long as losers cry enough.

And hear me out here, sore losers will always complain about this or that class or ability. Complain until the only viable build to remain Is the stunlock build. So good job on complaining about the wrong things.

You can imply that the majority of people will definitely not pick the most viable option at all and that this is all everyone else fault for what it has come to now.

Knowingly that this build was still used way before it was the only option left. Considering it's the only one I couldn't kill in a 1v1 duel (Not conquest mind you.) nor have I seen anyone reliably because they have all of the possible denial they can ever need to annihilate every single build but something with massive AoE spam. With so much avoidance and sustain, CI was just the biggest offender because it worked with the entire setup that would be spammed constantly without any hope. You can still play that build without CI, why was CI so important? Everything else is the same, what happened to the idea of disengaging and bait people into attacks?

-Sincerly from a Revenant who has fought a Mirage for 20 minutes before giving up, which still thinks condition damage on Mirage shouldn't have been nerfed but it's sustain rather.

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@Shao.7236 said:

@"Blocki.4931" said:

Or, and hear me out here, something that was previously not problematic rose to become a large issue as other builds left the spotlight. There are always many things like that in any game, but they simply aren't an issue because of how rarely they're seen or because something else, that is then later on nerfed, used to keep them in check. Stop crying about your class being nerfed.

Or hear me out here, they removed all the fun aspects of a class, leaving the "degenerate" aspects, such that players have no other choice than to stack up and rely on the narrow playstyle by devs 'grand vision' . So thanks for removing the fun aspects as long as losers cry enough.

And hear me out here, sore losers will always complain about this or that class or ability. Complain until the only viable build to remain Is the stunlock build. So good job on complaining about the wrong things.

You can imply that the majority of people will definitely not pick the most viable option at all and that this is all everyone else fault for what it has come to now.

Knowingly that this build was still used way before it was the only option left. Considering it's the only one I couldn't kill in a 1v1 duel (Not conquest mind you.) nor have I seen anyone reliably because they have all of the possible denial they can ever need to annihilate every single build but something with massive AoE spam. With so much avoidance and sustain, CI was just the biggest offender because it worked with the entire setup that would be spammed constantly without any hope. You can still play that build without CI, why was CI so important? Everything else is the same, what happened to the idea of disengaging and bait people into attacks?

-Sincerly from a Revenant who has fought a Mirage for 20 minutes before giving up, which still thinks condition damage on Mirage shouldn't have been nerfed but it's sustain rather.

or mb let us play mirage as sustain fighter it was designed to be? and not push EVERY FUCKING THING into 1shot clown fiesta, its fun for 30min then it gets borking, i would rather fight someone for 30min trying to find a crack in their defence or waiting for their mistakes to pile up instead of this retarded you die in 0,5s gg thing almost every meta build has right now. as for degenerate, i find thief daggerstorming 4 times back to back degenerate, or ranger throwing charging pet at me for 16k damage, and if i dodge he jut fucks off behind a wall to let his pet nibble on me for 3k dmg

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@"apharma.3741" said:Edit: The shocking thing to me was seeing it referred to as "degenerate play". That's not the kind of professionalism I'd expect from a company, let alone a representative of the company that enabled this despite many warnings by their community for over 2 years that lowering cool downs was a bad idea.

That's the rhetoric of an undercover dev who ran into a foul mouthed CI Mirage. Keep in mind the balance team has acquired some new blood recently, and some old blood may have been reintroduced after being pulled off culled projects.

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@"Curunen.8729" said:Interestingly in the announcement he mentioned one of the reasons for not being able to get this changed until the next balance update is because it would involve changes to multiple traits.

I can't work out what that could be referring to aside from CI, unless the change they have in mind also requires supplementary changes to take into account knock on effects. Can't be anything on mirage line specifically as nothing interacts with CI, it's kind of standalone in application, same as mantra.

Truth be told i think its not specifically mirage that the CI issue. The only thing mirage has that interacts with CI is the sword ambush i think mirage mostly comes into the picture with its insane condition pressure combined with the pressure CI provides on top. Overall it leads to a lot of "Not your turn yet." situations in way too many matchup. In the event it becomes the other persons turn the mesmer can choose to use a 4 second invuln, break target, blink, or stealth.... Mirage just has the most of these tools so its probably why it was called out directly. Most people dont play base mesmer in pvp and chrono is not as insane as it was with the rework. They practically lost a sustain tool if they choose to use C-Split offensively they can also no longer use it from a non combat situation like before granted their ability to one shot is still possible. Its more balanced.

Generally CI + on demand mantra stun needed to be looked into long before now. Mirage just made it more obnoxious and impossible for a lot (the majority) of builds/professions to deal with. While a few still can handle it (Thief) a lot of things cannot. realistically before the chrono rework Chronomancer held just as much pressure with CI possibly still does.

Over all the only way to deal with CI properly was to endure the CC's and not use skills. Or hope you had enough evades to cover dodging attacks until the mesmer used their cc's. Stability can certainly not be seen as a stable counter here as most builds in pvp include some way of stripping boons.. Yet the catch 22 is mesmer has optional traits that make things do more damage for not activating skills. So either you always allow the mesmer to make the first move and dont use your skills hoping to not get essentially double punished on button press command while rewarding the mesmer from up to 1200 range. ITs because mesmer has alot of traits that synergies that are considerably more potent than a good majority of other professions traits.

Anet is left with a choice to take a good long look at all these traits or just cull the one trait causing the problem which likely wont stop the problem. In a nutshell there are a lot of things that perhaps anet is finally listening about that should have been handled long ago and slipped through the cracks repeatedly.

As far as how it negatively effects pvp fighting the build for im guessing the majority of peoples is very demoralizing even more so if some "Butt" is playing it with from a god complexity perspective and ruining another persons pvp experience. Its a hard truth to face but some people are indeed toxic like that and bent on having a good time by ruining another persons experience. Having a busted build or play style that can enable such habits does not help.

To be frank.. Sage Mantra Firebrand should be on their radar too. Its not far off from the insanity that CI is in terms of "not your turn" the only way to counter a or its on trait effect mantra is to simply endure it. Provided you have the power to endure it the caster then has multiple ways to reset a fight and force you to endure it again. These play styles are not healthy.

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I mean....

@Vincenzo.3145 said:That's kitten. Here's some counterplay right here./wiki resistance

If you actually wiki resistance, you'll see that the pool of class specs that actually have access to resistance is very small. Also, the resistance given is short duration in most cases and, being a boon, is subject to Arcane Thievery or Sigil of Absorption/Annulment. It isn't counterplay, its resistance, pun not intended.

Or maybe we could see how THEY would like it if we took to their forums and started whining about their classes. Because that's CLEARLY the intelligent thing to do.

I mean... Go for it. If things on a particular class have no or very little counterplay and promote a playstyle that is unbalanced, you are absolutely free to make a discussion like everyone who has been complaining about CI has been doing and open that opinion to critique. That's how the forums work. Every other class has been on the chopping block when something was given to them that let them bypass counterplay. Join the party.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:Interestingly in the announcement he mentioned one of the reasons for not being able to get this changed until the next balance update is because it would involve changes to multiple traits.

I can't work out what that could be referring to aside from CI, unless the change they have in mind also requires supplementary changes to take into account knock on effects. Can't be anything on mirage line specifically as nothing interacts with CI, it's kind of standalone in application, same as mantra.

Truth be told i think its not specifically mirage that the CI issue. The only thing mirage has that interacts with CI is the sword ambush i think mirage mostly comes into the picture with its insane condition pressure combined with the pressure CI provides on top. Overall it leads to a lot of "Not your turn yet." situations in way too many matchup. In the event it becomes the other persons turn the mesmer can choose to use a 4 second invuln, break target, blink, or stealth.... Mirage just has the most of these tools so its probably why it was called out directly. Most people dont play base mesmer in pvp and chrono is not as insane as it was with the rework. They practically lost a sustain tool if they choose to use C-Split offensively they can also no longer use it from a non combat situation like before granted their ability to one shot is still possible. Its more balanced.

Generally CI + on demand mantra stun needed to be looked into long before now. Mirage just made it more obnoxious and impossible for a lot (the majority) of builds/professions to deal with. While a few still can handle it (Thief) a lot of things cannot. realistically before the chrono rework Chronomancer held just as much pressure with CI possibly still does.

Over all the only way to deal with CI properly was to endure the CC's and not use skills. Or hope you had enough evades to cover dodging attacks until the mesmer used their cc's. Stability can certainly not be seen as a stable counter here as most builds in pvp include some way of stripping boons.. Yet the catch 22 is mesmer has optional traits that make things do more damage for not activating skills. So either you always allow the mesmer to make the first move and dont use your skills hoping to not get essentially double punished on button press command while rewarding the mesmer from up to 1200 range. ITs because mesmer has alot of traits that synergies that are considerably more potent than a good majority of other professions traits.

Anet is left with a choice to take a good long look at all these traits or just cull the one trait causing the problem which likely wont stop the problem. In a nutshell there are a lot of things that perhaps anet is finally listening about that should have been handled long ago and slipped through the cracks repeatedly.

As far as how it negatively effects pvp fighting the build for im guessing the majority of peoples is very demoralizing even more so if some "Butt" is playing it with from a god complexity perspective and ruining another persons pvp experience. Its a hard truth to face but some people are indeed toxic like that and bent on having a good time by ruining another persons experience. Having a busted build or play style that can enable such habits does not help.

To be frank.. Sage Mantra Firebrand should be on their radar too. Its not far off from the insanity that CI is in terms of "not your turn" the only way to counter a or its on trait effect mantra is to simply endure it. Provided you have the power to endure it the caster then has multiple ways to reset a fight and force you to endure it again. These play styles are not healthy.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying - especially the playstyles being incentivised through certain changes. Pre HoT I dabbled with condirupt using scepter/focus and staff, using CI, which at that time was a below average compared with just straight shatter etc, but was a fun thing to mess around with the immobilise (this was before they merged the boons into it) and actually fairly weak in that state of the game.

Trouble with the powercreep is the standard IH mirage with staff deals out enough pressure through relatively brainless clone ambushes that old stuff like interrupt traits and so on is flavouring on top of a strong base, no sacrifice needed.

I would be pleasantly surprised to see in the next or a future patch for many traits to be looked at, to sort this mess out where there are one or two strong and easier to play builds being incentivised, with many other build choices significantly weaker than those optimal ones, though given history of patches I'm not holding my breath over it.

Oh and I certainly agree there are toxic mesmer players in the game who play for their own reasons, though as with every "main" population there are nice people and bad apples.

Bottom line is mirage is still strong - I have zero problem playing it - but I neither like the thematic choices Anet has made for the playstyle being encouraged, nor the slow and seemingly surface level method of change of balance in general, or the occasional contradictory change without sufficient explanation (removal of IP from Chrono).

I would imagine we'll see changes for mirage to encourage the playstyle of the spec's name - eg lower instantaneous burst output (changing F1/2 shatters - yes will be hard for me to swallow as I do enjoy landing a fat mind wrack crit) but encouraging the blending in with clones, landing player ambushes (adjusting them upwards ) control through being deceptive, and so on. Ideally we'd have Core being the old school standard "shatter" gameplay for +1 burst etc, Chrono being team support (but I don't agree with the way they've changed it), and Mirage a harrasing duelist (it's late and I can't think of proper words to use at the moment). Leaves the next elite spec for hopefully a control/denial playstyle (with tradeoff of damage output or similar).

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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

I used to play CI although in a power build, freaking stab counters the entire build!You know how "degenerate" the entire community is when they prefer to come to forums getting traits nerfed instead of changing one or two skills on their build.

Ya know, strangely enough, Zeromis ran dom/dueling marauders power mes and still had enough of a brain + boon strip without arcane thievery/annulment to beat bunker boonbeast at its prime in a 1v1 when it took siamoth for plasma
and
dolyak stance.

"You know how 'degenerate' the entire mesmer community is when they prefer to come to forums getting traits nerfed instead of changing one or two skills on their build."

It's not like zeromis is awesome, is more like everyone else in NA is lackluster.

Your last sentence makes no sense at all.

Mesmer community is the most self-conscious community in the game, hence we were the ones proposing a series of nerfs that would made mirage balance. At the same time you and your knowledgeable community were spamming threads saying "nerf X and mirage will be fine" every single patch.But good news ANerf took all your suggestions instead and you're still crying nerf x now, mirage still op.

I just wanna know if ANet is going to change my mesmer main, with all my playtime, map complete, and story completion into an Ele or something I am allowed to play without having to re-roll every patch.

Cause I am sick of trying to play around the limits being imposed by people that don't play it.

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@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

Cause I am sick of trying to play around the limits being imposed by people that don't play it.

CI mesmer limited the use of many builds in PvP. For example, reapers would get completely shut down by the build to the point where they were unable to move or cast skills for 10+ seconds.

That's not fun, nor balanced for anyone involved. There was a plat 3 necro player who quit playing on stream because he was fighting multiple CI mesmers every match. It got to the point where it didn't even matter if his hands were touching the keyboard, there was just nothing he could do on his main class. He got desperate and swapped to thief for a match before he left so he could at least stand a chance against them.

Speak of playing around limits... lol

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@Shao.7236 said:

@"apharma.3741" said:The shocking thing to me was seeing it referred to as "degenerate play". That's not the kind of professionalism I'd expect from a company, let alone a representative of the company that enabled this despite many warnings by their community for over 2 years that lowering cool downs was a bad idea.

The term "Degenerate play" is used in all sorts of competitive scenes. It has more than it's place in the professionalism you involve.

If it's taken as a insult like I'm seeing a few of people actually doing so, you've got the wrong idea of the term and should look it up.


@"mortrialus.3062" said:...degenerate play is a very specific term in game design and competitive gaming ...

A degenerate strategy is a way of playing a video game that exploits an oversight in gameplay mechanics or design.

Degenerate strategies do not break the rules of a game like a code or a cheat, but they do prevent the game from being experienced in the manner intended by the game designer.

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@Shao.7236 said:

@"apharma.3741" said:The shocking thing to me was seeing it referred to as "degenerate play". That's not the kind of professionalism I'd expect from a company, let alone a representative of the company that enabled this despite many warnings by their community for over 2 years that lowering cool downs was a bad idea.

The term "Degenerate play" is used in all sorts of competitive scenes. It has more than it's place in the professionalism you involve.

If it's taken as a insult like I'm seeing a few of people actually doing so, you've got the wrong idea of the term and should look it up.


@"mortrialus.3062" said:...degenerate play is a very specific term in game design and competitive gaming ...

A degenerate strategy is a way of playing a video game that exploits an oversight in gameplay mechanics or design.

Degenerate strategies do not break the rules of a game like a code or a cheat, but they do prevent the game from being experienced in the manner intended by the game designer.

That's cool and all, but I got moderated for saying "degenerate companions".Now, didn't the mods know that term? I can argue that I was referring to some people that used that strategy. Or did they assumed I was being disrespectful?It goes to both sides.

Checkmate ANerf.

There is many words that can be used in one way but not others. It's nothing to be proud of.

Tell that to Irenio.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

Cause I am sick of trying to play around the limits being imposed by people that don't play it.

CI mesmer limited the use of many builds in PvP. For example, reapers would get completely shut down by the build to the point where they were unable to move or cast skills for 10+ seconds.

That's not fun, nor balanced for anyone involved. There was a plat 3 necro player who quit playing on stream because he was fighting multiple CI mesmers every match. It got to the point where it didn't even matter if his hands were touching the keyboard, there was just nothing he could do on his main class. He got desperate and swapped to thief for a match before he left so he could at least stand a chance against them.

Speak of playing around limits... lol

How does CI Mesmer stop Reaper from doing map and story completion?

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@"apharma.3741" said:The shocking thing to me was seeing it referred to as "degenerate play". That's not the kind of professionalism I'd expect from a company, let alone a representative of the company that enabled this despite many warnings by their community for over 2 years that lowering cool downs was a bad idea.

The term "Degenerate play" is used in all sorts of competitive scenes. It has more than it's place in the professionalism you involve.

If it's taken as a insult like I'm seeing a few of people actually doing so, you've got the wrong idea of the term and should look it up.


@"mortrialus.3062" said:...degenerate play is a very specific term in game design and competitive gaming ...

A degenerate strategy is a way of playing a video game that exploits an oversight in gameplay mechanics or design.

Degenerate strategies do not break the rules of a game like a code or a cheat, but they do prevent the game from being experienced in the manner intended by the game designer.

I don't think the techopedia definition is the one ArenaNet is using, though. The only way that boonsmite or CI mesmer could be called "a way of playing a video game that exploits an oversight in gameplay mechanics or design" is if you regard making a build that's too powerful to be a design oversight, in which case it's pretty much a redundant term.

Given that a lot of the ArenaNet devs took a lot of inspiration from M:tG, it's likely that the Magic-related explanations given at https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/713590/what-degenerate-play is what the devs are referring to. In Magic, a "degenerate" deck was one that relied on stacking the deck with lots of copies of the same win-condition card or set of cards. The equivalent in a Guild Wars setting is a teambuild which encourages stacking multiple copies of the same build - such as Iway, boonsmite, and behaviour I've heard of in the previous season where people would switch to mesmer after entering a PvP in order to stack mesmers.

As opposed to certain other builds which have been in the meta which are powerful in ways that don't encourage stacking - usually involving being powerful in some specific aspect but needing other builds to cover their weaknesses.

@Levetty.1279 said:

@"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

Cause I am sick of trying to play around the limits being imposed by people that don't play it.

CI mesmer limited the use of many builds in PvP. For example, reapers would get completely shut down by the build to the point where they were unable to move or cast skills for 10+ seconds.

That's not fun, nor balanced for anyone involved. There was a plat 3 necro player who quit playing on stream because he was fighting multiple CI mesmers every match. It got to the point where it didn't even matter if his hands were touching the keyboard, there was just nothing he could do on his main class. He got desperate and swapped to thief for a match before he left so he could at least stand a chance against them.

Speak of playing around limits... lol

How does CI Mesmer stop Reaper from doing map and story completion?

How important is CI in map and story completion? I've done fine on mesmer without using that trait in PvE (not to mention that it's still available in PvE, I believe).

More broadly, though, I do sympathise: one of the things that's really frustrating about playing mesmer is that it has a tendency to get redesigned from the ground up (or at least have an elite specialisation redesigned from the ground up) something like once a year or so. It's part of the reason why, while I consider guardian and mesmer to be my top two preferred professions, guardian just wins out: the guardian community might have turned "guardian is in a good spot" into a meme, but guardian design is at least fairly stable - there have been a few tweaks around the edges, but relatively few cases of something being sent back to the drawing board and redesigned from scratch, and those that have occurred have usually been with an intent to buff rather than to nerf. You can see this in the builds being used: there are builds that are still doing reasonably well in PvP and WvW that are relatively minor modifications of builds that predated HoT.

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@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@"apharma.3741" said:The shocking thing to me was seeing it referred to as "degenerate play". That's not the kind of professionalism I'd expect from a company, let alone a representative of the company that enabled this despite many warnings by their community for over 2 years that lowering cool downs was a bad idea.

The term "Degenerate play" is used in all sorts of competitive scenes. It has more than it's place in the professionalism you involve.

If it's taken as a insult like I'm seeing a few of people actually doing so, you've got the wrong idea of the term and should look it up.


@"mortrialus.3062" said:...degenerate play is a very specific term in game design and competitive gaming ...

A degenerate strategy is a way of playing a video game that exploits an oversight in gameplay mechanics or design.

Degenerate strategies do not break the rules of a game like a code or a cheat, but they do prevent the game from being experienced in the manner intended by the game designer.

That's cool and all, but I got moderated for saying "degenerate companions".Now, didn't the mods know that term? I can argue that I was referring to some people that used that strategy. Or did they assumed I was being disrespectful?It goes to both sides.

Checkmate ANerf.

Well, they clearly don't want us playing. And I'm willing to help them with that.I chuckled when he said "gold1 player from EU" is good and its more than enough to get rank1 on NA. I'm dying :joy:Truly shows how trash NA players are
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@"Kylden Ar.3724" said:So, this happened --

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/83741/chaotic-interruption-temporarily-disabled-in-pvp

Competitive is pretty much dead to me. Disable AN ENTIRE TRAIT for 3 months because it's too hard to just add an internal cooldown?

Which as I'm not interested in grinding in PvE, and there's no LS for a while, guess I am kinda done with the game for the most part for a quarter. Got a boss blitz event tonight with the guild alliance, assuming that can keep me interested for more than an hour, then guess I will come back for about 3 hours when LS5E1 hits.

IMO anet is acting like a "fireman", just do something when is a bit too late, and something that is just extreme. Remove an entire trait... the funny thing is that trait has been there for ages, i've been using that for ages... no problem...but suddenly everyone starts to use mantra and CI, then whinners come to forums and anet decide to remove something that has been there for ages...

what is really sad, and something to worry about, is "got anet any plan?", i mean, if they need to have ppl and ppl crying on forums to notice there is a problem with skill/trait?

1 problem is that there are players that are just looking for the most op shit and dont think in a single build by themselves, their fun is a "win", but i wonder how anet cuts down a trait that way...

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What is not use cannot harm ppl ... but once everyone uses it - it might become a " degenerate play and negatively affecting PvP."

So I don't get why ppl are mad since it's not intended to be that way but you couldn't know it could affect the game that badly since no one used it for X reasons.Anet is a company and they have decisions to make in accord of their vision the game should have.

CI is not intended but they can't fix it yet... What should they have done then appart from disabling it? People are really too whiny and unrealistic here.

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@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:Could be worse... you could be like Thief, where a New PvP ruleset completely DISABLES a major kitten part of your class.

Hard facts. Imagine not being able to use a mechanic your class is built around for a large portion of its damage mitigation if you want to 2v2. If you dont have HoT expack and run condi daredevil thief, you're screwed.

@"judgebeo.3976" said:

IMO anet is acting like a "fireman", just do something when is a bit too late, and something that is just extreme. Remove an entire trait... the funny thing is that trait has been there for ages, i've been using that for ages... no problem...but suddenly everyone starts to use mantra and CI, then whinners come to forums and anet decide to remove something that has been there for ages...

Imagine being sick for a good portion of your life and a doctor finds out what your illness is, but you get angry at the doctor for suggesting they cure it because you've had it for so long.

Something being broken for a long time doesn't insulate it against fixing.

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:Could be worse... you could be like Thief, where a New PvP ruleset completely DISABLES a major kitten part of your class.

Hard facts. Imagine not being able to use a mechanic your class is built around for a large portion of its damage mitigation if you want to 2v2. If you dont have HoT expack and run condi daredevil thief, you're screwed.

@"judgebeo.3976" said:

IMO anet is acting like a "fireman", just do something when is a bit too late, and something that is just extreme. Remove an entire trait... the funny thing is that trait has been there for ages, i've been using that for ages... no problem...but
suddenly everyone starts to use mantra and CI
, then whinners come to forums and anet decide to remove something that has been there for ages...

Imagine being sick for a good portion of your life and a doctor finds out what your illness is, but you get angry at the doctor for suggesting they cure it because you've had it for so long.

Something being broken for a long time doesn't insulate it against fixing.

Imagine having a skin condition on your face for a good portion of your life and the doctor finds out what your illness is, but he tells you to wear a bag on your head until they find out how to clean up your skin because it is too offensive for others to look at.

Me: Um... okay doc, when are you gonna find the cure? How long do I have to wear this? There aren't even any holes in it, I can't breathe properly... I can't see. You are limiting my physical capabilities.

Doc: Bruh... I'm not sure but you have to wear this bag until then... nobody deserves to see that face.

Me: But my face broke out like this because of the cream you gave me... so this is your fault.

Doc: Yeah... well such is life.

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