Why you guys hate CI and MOD? Because you do not try to cancel your skills or cast it one by one!

[TAIKA.1903]

(I speak English badly, so if you can't understand what I said, I apologize for it)

As a power mesmer main player who play with CI and powerlock, I got top 25 (NA) with these 2 traits as a power chrono mesmer few seasons ago before POF.

At least I think I can say there are lots of people who said CI and MOD are OP because they do not try to use their brain to cast skills or cancel them.

First, it it not that easy to interrupt ppl with MOD after you see the animation of skills. Most of skills only need 0.25~0.75 sec for casting. And as an Asian player, I play gw2 with 200~250 ping, it is very hard to interrupt those skills (I only have about 0.05~0.55 sec to act when I see the animation).How could I still interrupt those players’ skills?Because lots of plat1 (or below) players they just cast their skill one by one, throw everything they have.All I have to do is waiting for them cast the first one and then I would interrupt 2nd one, after that, I can burst them when they are immobilized.There are lots of games have skills for interrupting other players’ skills, like WOW and so on. And most of those games, the cast time of skill is more than 1.5sec. If you want to cast skill in those games, you have to know how to cheat enemies with cancelling your skill or you will get penalty when you get interrupted.But now, those players who do not know how to cancel you skills or just throw your skills like you face keyboard blame mesmers can interrupt their skills, wtf?!

Second, it is very hard to interrupt skills after HOT because there are lots of classes has stabilities. We have to wait for a long time after the stabilities disappear and then we have a chance to interrupt. So, why you think MOD is an over power skill? We bring a none damage (or for survival) skill and we can’t use it when ppl has stabilites, by the way, we only has a little chance to interrupt your skill. If we do not interrupt you skills, you only got 1.5 sec daze and can still dodge my attack.

Third, there are lots off people like to revive teammates in front of enemies without stabilities. That is so stupid and I like to interrupt them and kill them when they are immobilized. After them die, most of them said “ OP CI, FXXK”. Sigh….Why do you think you can revive teammates when you stand in front of a mesmer with MOD.Would you try to revive in front of HOLO or REV? No, you wouldn’t. So please do not try to revive our lovers in front of a mesmer with MOD, you would die, too.

Fourth, it is also hard to interrupt the players who are above plat2, most of them do not throw skills easily or randomly, so for me, if I want to interrupt them, I have to guess when they will cast because it is impossible to interrupt them when you see the animation unless the skill need more than 1 sec for casting (like REV elite). That is why there are lots of good players still can kill some players who is a newbi CI condi mesmer.

I do not know what do dev think now, but this is my suggestion."If you think immobilize of CI is op, when you cancel the immobilize, please give CI the ability of Power Block, add a few sec of cooldown as a penalty for enemys and do not remove the buff mesmers can get from CI.I really do not want to see the enemy cast a skill which I wait for a long time to interrupt again in 5 sec, and I think it is balance for mesmers to get the buff after them interrupt someone and those people should get some penalties like cripple or blind."

Thank for reading my post, I just like gw2 and mesmers, I still wanna gw2 become a much better game for everyone. But I can't stand for some people who did not try MOD or CI before and judge them OP.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Before I say this, know that I am one of the people who said on several occasions: "That I didn't think CI Mantra Condis was as OP as people claimed." but if you're talking about people complaining about MOD specifically, you should consider this:

Consider playing other classes, where CCing someone and interrupting a skill, requires chasing them with a melee weapon and actually connecting with it. Consider it requires significant effort to hit with a Skull Grinder or an Earth Shaker or a Reaper #5. All of these types of CCs have obvious tells, the animations are long, and they are obviously inc when a melee character is riding you in melee, so people know when to "be ready" to engage and counter play other such CCs.

MOD on the other hand, is an instant cast CC and an instant strike nonetheless. It requires no cast time and no projectile travel time, such as a Headshot or a Ranger LB #4. A Mesmer can stand 1200 range outside of a team fight, and freely CC assist vs. any target that he chooses, leaving absolutely no room for visual counter play on the part of the player's he is focusing.

This is why people complain about MOD. It has less counter play than even the old unblockable Death's Judgement man. That's just obnoxious.

[Vagrant.7206]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Before I say this, know that I am one of the people who said on several occasions: "That I didn't think CI Mantra Condis was as OP as people claimed." but if you're talking about people complaining about MOD specifically, you should consider this:

Consider playing other classes, where CCing someone and interrupting a skill, requires chasing them with a melee weapon and actually connecting with it. Consider it requires significant effort to hit with a Skull Grinder or an Earth Shaker or a Reaper #5. All of these types of CCs have obvious tells, the animations are long, and they are obviously inc when a melee character is riding you in melee, so people know when to "be ready" to engage and counter play other such CCs.

MOD on the other hand, is an instant cast CC and an instant strike nonetheless. It requires no cast time and no projectile travel time, such as a Headshot or a Ranger LB #4. A Mesmer can stand 1200 range outside of a team fight, and freely CC assist vs. any target that he chooses, leaving absolutely no room for visual counter play on the part of the player's he is focusing.

This is why people complain about MOD. It has less counter play than even the old unblockable Death's Judgement man. That's just obnoxious.

Even some of the more egregious CC's, such as holo shockwave, aren't this powerful.

[Daishi.6027]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Before I say this, know that I am one of the people who said on several occasions: "That I didn't think CI Mantra Condis was as OP as people claimed." but if you're talking about people complaining about MOD specifically, you should consider this:

Consider playing other classes, where CCing someone and interrupting a skill, requires chasing them with a melee weapon and actually connecting with it. Consider it requires significant effort to hit with a Skull Grinder or an Earth Shaker or a Reaper #5. All of these types of CCs have obvious tells, the animations are long, and they are obviously inc when a melee character is riding you in melee, so people know when to "be ready" to engage and counter play other such CCs.

MOD on the other hand, is an instant cast CC and an instant strike nonetheless. It requires no cast time and no projectile travel time, such as a Headshot or a Ranger LB #4. A Mesmer can stand 1200 range outside of a team fight, and freely CC assist vs. any target that he chooses, leaving absolutely no room for visual counter play on the part of the player's he is focusing.

This is why people complain about MOD. It has less counter play than even the old unblockable Death's Judgement man. That's just obnoxious.

Although there is strength in this, and personally I'm not super fond of MoD, and I do think the game would be better without it simply because I do not find that form of gameplay healthy. I contest the idea that it is to much and to strong for the amount given and that it doesn't reach at least a similar standard to other skills like headshot, which although is closer, is instant with a fast enough travel speed that you need to somewhat read it to avoid it.

2 dazes either every 14+ seconds (a few of those seconds requiring an active charge) or 1 daze every 15 seconds is not an unsubstantial, or inconsequential limitation, when compared to other classes who although don't have the same CC methods; do have more direct offensive or defensive methods. Locking down and CC was intentionally supposed to be part of the design and we never ran into issues with power.

If you are spamming this from 1200 away that is annoying for sure, but no one should be left to free cast anyways, and when done so could be problematic for your team regardless.

We only ran into issues when people could put torment so people couldn't run.Confusion so people couldn't use skills.Then Interrupts in between that along with cover condis, also immobilized targets.Also with amulets that give expertise and a defensive stat making it decently able to sustain and it's damage had passive ramp thanks to illusions.

CI and MoD only became a problem with condi

[TAIKA.1903]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Before I say this, know that I am one of the people who said on several occasions: "That I didn't think CI Mantra Condis was as OP as people claimed." but if you're talking about people complaining about MOD specifically, you should consider this:

Consider playing other classes, where CCing someone and interrupting a skill, requires chasing them with a melee weapon and actually connecting with it. Consider it requires significant effort to hit with a Skull Grinder or an Earth Shaker or a Reaper #5. All of these types of CCs have obvious tells, the animations are long, and they are obviously inc when a melee character is riding you in melee, so people know when to "be ready" to engage and counter play other such CCs.

MOD on the other hand, is an instant cast CC and an instant strike nonetheless. It requires no cast time and no projectile travel time, such as a Headshot or a Ranger LB #4. A Mesmer can stand 1200 range outside of a team fight, and freely CC assist vs. any target that he chooses, leaving absolutely no room for visual counter play on the part of the player's he is focusing.

This is why people complain about MOD. It has less counter play than even the old unblockable Death's Judgement man. That's just obnoxious.

First, MOD do not have condi damage, so it is not same as Skull Grinder.2nd, Earth Shaker is stun, not daze. MOD is daze, people still can dodge and move.3rd, Reaper greadsword #5 ( Grasping Darkness) is pull, it is a kind of stun (people can't move or dodge if they do not dodge at first). It is not daze, like MOD.4th, Ranger LB #4 is push (people can't move or dodge if they do not dodge at first). It is not daze, like MOD.5th, Headshot is daze, right. MOD is better than this, 1200 range and no projectile. But you have to pre-cast for ammo.

You have to know, Mod is DAZE, not stun, pull and so on. People can still dodge or move when they are under daze.MOD was really op with a trait before when it can STUN people about 1 sec or 3/4 sec. And Anet nerfed it, I agree.But you said DAZE is a CC like stun, pull, push? Please, it is not good enough or there would be lots of people play with MOD in monthly AT.

The problem is people can't stand when they got interrupt, they can't move and dodge. it is just like a STUN. (DAZE+IMMOBILIZE=>STUN)As I said, mesmers have to daze and interrupted them, and then they will get both of debuff (DAZE+IMMOBILIZE=>STUN).If mesmers do not interrupt the skill, it is only a daze. People can still dodge if they want.........

Please recognize stun, pull, push, fear, and so on, daze is much worse than them, because people can still dodge and move, that is a very big difference.

Now Anet think MOD with CI's immobilize is op, I just suggest them remove the immobilize, and then there will be no more a kind of stun (daze+immobilize).MOD is ok. There is no more people play with MOD without CI now, so please do not nerf MOD anymore. As a MOD lover who play mesmers with it few years ago.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Not when they are immobilized, and the point is daze/stun are still interrupts meaning a skill goes on cool down.

[alain.1659]

Well MOD or CI have never been a problem for me. Yet I hate how a mesmer can kill a light or medium armored target instantly (that is same with every other one shot build/profession). But to counter that, devs need to adjust all professions. Disabling CI was such an amateur move. There are really good topics in these forums that include all kinds of balance ideas.

[Yannir.4132]

For the record, I agree with this. Mantra of Distraction is not an issue on its own.

Issues arise when a spammable skill like this is combined with a strong trait like Chaotic Interruption. The Immobilize on interrupt is too strong because it essentially turns the Daze into a Stun. In fact it's worse than a Stun because now you're suddenly dealing with 2 different effects that have separate ways of removal. As a Guardian player I'm used to having CoP on my bar that deals with both but I can see how someone else could be having big issues with this.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Daishi.6027 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Before I say this, know that I am one of the people who said on several occasions: "That I didn't think CI Mantra Condis was as OP as people claimed." but if you're talking about people complaining about MOD specifically, you should consider this:

Consider playing other classes, where CCing someone and interrupting a skill, requires chasing them with a melee weapon and actually connecting with it. Consider it requires significant effort to hit with a Skull Grinder or an Earth Shaker or a Reaper #5. All of these types of CCs have obvious tells, the animations are long, and they are obviously inc when a melee character is riding you in melee, so people know when to "be ready" to engage and counter play other such CCs.

MOD on the other hand, is an instant cast CC and an instant strike nonetheless. It requires no cast time and no projectile travel time, such as a Headshot or a Ranger LB #4. A Mesmer can stand 1200 range outside of a team fight, and freely CC assist vs. any target that he chooses, leaving absolutely no room for visual counter play on the part of the player's he is focusing.

This is why people complain about MOD. It has less counter play than even the old unblockable Death's Judgement man. That's just obnoxious.

Although there is strength in this, and personally I'm not super fond of MoD, and I do think the game would be better without it simply because I do not find that form of gameplay healthy. I contest the idea that it is to much and to strong for the amount given and that it doesn't reach at least a similar standard to other skills like headshot, which although is closer, is instant with a fast enough travel speed that you need to somewhat read it to avoid it.

2 dazes either every 14+ seconds (a few of those seconds requiring an active charge) or 1 daze every 15 seconds is not an unsubstantial, or inconsequential limitation, when compared to other classes who although don't have the same CC methods; do have more direct offensive or defensive methods. Locking down and CC was intentionally supposed to be part of the design and we never ran into issues with power.

If you are spamming this from 1200 away that is annoying for sure, but no one should be left to free cast anyways, and when done so could be problematic for your team regardless.

We only ran into issues when people could put torment so people couldn't run.Confusion so people couldn't use skills.Then Interrupts in between that along with cover condis, also immobilized targets.Also with amulets that give expertise and a defensive stat making it decently able to sustain and it's damage had passive ramp thanks to illusions.

CI and MoD only became a problem with condi

There were in my opinion, a few things that when synergized, created the issue with it being "a bit over the top"

1. Like you said, it was only a problem with condi. With power shatter builds, the damage bursts are very telegraphed and slow & cumbersome. In this case, MOD is fine and I would dare say that Power Shatter builds actually need it, in its current state mechanically. But when we are talking condi attrition, blowing off a ton of random ambush damage from clone spam auto attacks, this level of instant CC starts to become a bit much when it is virtually impossible to avoid all the clone damage to begin with, even before getting targeted with additional CC.
2. So now a Mirage is running condi with MOD, and then it lays CI on top of that. As you already said, amulets providing expertise makes the immobilization crazy ridiculous. Normally I wouldn't think this was an issue. Normally I wouldn't be concerned with how expertise effects immobilization, even on Ranger Immob spam builds. But against a Condi Mirage, which is spamming small & very frequent condi applications 100% of the time during engagement, players must cycle through condi cleanses as often as they can. So the condi cleanses that would normally be saved to escape something like a 3s Immob, are rarely available to use for that 3s Immob, because they have to be spammed as often as possible to even stay engaged with the clone attrition + Mirage direct damage. If the bulk of the Mirage's kill damage came at the same time as its burst + Immob, it wouldn't be so difficult to maintain CDs and use them to clear all of those effects at once. This is however not the case. All the Mirage has to do is understand the meta and know when he has burnt out most of the opponent's CDs of condi cleanses and stunbreaks, and then lay down the MOD/CI burst = dead opponent. If the opponent cannot kill the Mirage before the Mirage baits the first cycle of CDs, it is impossible to counter play past that point, and the Mirage's opponent will surely lose the 1v1.
3. Now even on a Core Mes, all of the above ^ still isn't really OP. The thing that synergizes too well with the above, is still Infinite Horizon and condi builds having too much damage off clones from IH and the innate mechanics of Mirage Cloak in general. When the Mirage & its clones can attack you with ambush skills while simultaneously dodging, while also popping off instant CC skills to boot, things start to get a bit messed up. To be able to take that many actions on other classes, requires decision making. "Should I CC first, and then attack, and then dodge roll?" "Should I just double dodge roll in and then attack and then CC and follow up with attack?" "I'm getting low on resources, maybe I should just roll around defensively now instead of trying to attack?" Mirage on the other hand, can quite seriously always do it all, all of the time, all at once. <- This is what makes it so strong in the hands of experienced players. They are able to avoid the punishment of choosing to take the wrong actions at the wrong time. Strong Mirage players, as long as they have resources left, are able to instantly dodge roll while still maintaining attack and while still having the option to instant CC to assist in a burst or to stop a burst, at any $%^&ing time they so choose, because it's all instant and can overlap in animations/actions taken, due to no cast times and attacking while dodging at the same time. This is enormously powerful when wielded by more experienced players. The tactical advantages that this grants knowledgeable players with good reflexes is too much on Condi Mirage builds. Again, I dare say that both Mirage Cloak and Infinite Horizon are fine on Power Shatter builds, they need it actually. On condi however, it's busted.

Really in my opinion, I think the core of the issue is the same problem that Mirage Condi has always had, and that is that the ambush damage rolling off of clones is just way too high and too frequent of application. I had started running this build before I took my leave of absence, in both spvp and wvw. I'd like to point out that I'm a bad Mesmer player and very inexperienced on the class. But on this build, I was able to get away with being a bad Mesmer player. All I had to do was create a shit load of clones and then play 100% defensively as my clones tore apart opponents each and every time I used a dodge roll. Then of course, being an experienced player in general who knows the meta, when I'd see a player trying to disengage a bit for a heal cycle, I'd just get real aggressive with the CCs to interrupt it and by that time they were in the danger zone and ripe to die, in absolutely no position to counter play or get aggressive with my Mirage. I noticed that the build was terrible in team fights when focused, but in 1v1 situations you could bait anything into death if it was goofy enough to stay and fight you.

Just gonna say it one more time: I really believe the core underlying problem here, after actually running this build for awhile, is not CI or MOD. The core issue is that ambush damage off of clones with IH is just too high while running Mirage Condi. Chaith had made a comment awhile back, something like: "At some point with Mirage, Mesmers had become like a Turret Engi." I agree, that's exactly what it feels like. With Condi Mirage variants, it doesn't even really reward proper Shattering anymore, but rather it rewards setting up a shit load of clones and letting them machine gun down anyone who stays in the area while the Mirage plays 100% defensively. This kind of gameplay is not healthy, regardless of if someone believes it is OP or not.

[Tayga.3192]

Quick edit: Nerf clones buff mesmer

I played different builds against variety of different CI mirages (from bronze to plat) but I never really had any problem except when I played renegade or herald (I am very bad at rev).

However, I understand that it can be annoying. Not strong but annoying. Same as core mesmer.

@TAIKA.1903 said:p.s.If you played WOW before, most of great healers or mage know how to cheat enemy to waste their interrupt skill.And once they got interrupt, they can't use most of the skill they have about 4~8 sec.

Two games are very different.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@TAIKA.1903 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Before I say this, know that I am one of the people who said on several occasions: "That I didn't think CI Mantra Condis was as OP as people claimed." but if you're talking about people complaining about MOD specifically, you should consider this:

Consider playing other classes, where CCing someone and interrupting a skill, requires chasing them with a melee weapon and actually connecting with it. Consider it requires significant effort to hit with a Skull Grinder or an Earth Shaker or a Reaper #5. All of these types of CCs have obvious tells, the animations are long, and they are obviously inc when a melee character is riding you in melee, so people know when to "be ready" to engage and counter play other such CCs.

MOD on the other hand, is an instant cast CC and an instant strike nonetheless. It requires no cast time and no projectile travel time, such as a Headshot or a Ranger LB #4. A Mesmer can stand 1200 range outside of a team fight, and freely CC assist vs. any target that he chooses, leaving absolutely no room for visual counter play on the part of the player's he is focusing.

This is why people complain about MOD. It has less counter play than even the old unblockable Death's Judgement man. That's just obnoxious.

First, MOD do not have condi damage, so it is not same as Skull Grinder.2nd, Earth Shaker is stun, not daze. MOD is daze, people still can dodge and move.3rd, Reaper greadsword #5 ( Grasping Darkness) is pull, it is a kind of stun (people can't move or dodge if they do not dodge at first). It is not daze, like MOD.4th, Ranger LB #4 is push (people can't move or dodge if they do not dodge at first). It is not daze, like MOD.5th, Headshot is daze, right. MOD is better than this, 1200 range and no projectile. But you have to pre-cast for ammo.

You have to know, Mod is

DAZE

, not stun, pull and so on. People can still dodge or move when they are under daze.MOD was really op with a trait before when it can

STUN

people about 1 sec or 3/4 sec. And Anet nerfed it, I agree.But you said

DAZE

is a CC like stun, pull, push? Please, it is not good enough or there would be lots of people play with MOD in monthly AT.

The problem is people can't stand when they got interrupt, they can't move and dodge. it is just like a

STUN

. (DAZE+IMMOBILIZE=>STUN)As I said, mesmers have to daze and interrupted them, and then they will get both of debuff (DAZE+IMMOBILIZE=>STUN).If mesmers do not interrupt the skill, it is only a daze. People can still dodge if they want.........

Please recognize stun, pull, push, fear, and so on, daze is much worse than them, because people can still dodge and move, that is a very big difference.

Now Anet think MOD with CI's immobilize is op, I just suggest them remove the immobilize, and then there will be no more a kind of stun (daze+immobilize).MOD is ok. There is no more people play with MOD without CI now, so please do not nerf MOD anymore. As a MOD lover who play mesmers with it few years ago.

p.s.If you played WOW before, most of great healers or mage know how to cheat enemy to waste their interrupt skill.And once they got interrupt, they can't use most of the skill they have about 4~8 sec.

It looks like you completely missed the point that I was making. Oh well, I tried.

~ Cheers.

[bravan.3876]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Before I say this, know that I am one of the people who said on several occasions: "That I didn't think CI Mantra Condis was as OP as people claimed." but if you're talking about people complaining about MOD specifically, you should consider this:

Consider playing other classes, where CCing someone and interrupting a skill, requires chasing them with a melee weapon and actually connecting with it. Consider it requires significant effort to hit with a Skull Grinder or an Earth Shaker or a Reaper #5. All of these types of CCs have obvious tells, the animations are long, and they are obviously inc when a melee character is riding you in melee, so people know when to "be ready" to engage and counter play other such CCs.

MOD on the other hand, is an instant cast CC and an instant strike nonetheless. It requires no cast time and no projectile travel time, such as a Headshot or a Ranger LB #4. A Mesmer can stand 1200 range outside of a team fight, and freely CC assist vs. any target that he chooses, leaving absolutely no room for visual counter play on the part of the player's he is focusing.

This is why people complain about MOD. It has less counter play than even the old unblockable Death's Judgement man. That's just obnoxious.

None of the skills you mentioned have the interrupt as goal, they are clearly not designed as an interrupt tool from Anet. The Warrior skill deals dmg, gives you 4 conditions (2 dmg conditions) and dazes in addition as a pure defensive nature not rly to interrupt. It can crit in its dmg, All that without the need of intrrupting anything and without the need to use an additional trait. This is not an interrupt skill this is a dmg skill with additional bonus effects. A Warrior will hit it for the dmg and will not use it to interrupt primarely. Not even the daze has an interrupt nature here, here its just a defensive boni just like cripple is an offensive boni so the melee Warrior can stay close to the target easier. You want to compare that with an utility skill that only dazes and nothing else?

All other skills you mentioned are hard cc lock down skills that include dmg on hit means without the need of interrupting and without the need of an additional trait , they are not meant for interrupting at all. Also daze is not a lock down. Ofc hard cc lock down is not allowed to be instant and they are not meant to intrrupt they are meant to lock down so the player can hit follow up dmg skills during the player cannot dodge. That is a basic difference between lock down and interrupt skills ppl don't seem to understand even tho i explained the difference several times. Ofc it would be op if Warrior hammer skills or Warrior Bullscharge would be instant. These skills are not even interrupt skills, they are not meant for that purpose. The cc is either a lock down or when it is a daze only, then just as a defensive boni on a skill that is primarely a dmg skill. These are no interrupt skills!!! And that is why stun from old CS trait or immob from CI was op, because then Mesmer had an instant lock down together with Mantra of Distraction. Mantra itself only dazes and with balanced traits like Powerblock it doesn't become an lock down, it is still only a daze and ppl can dodge everyhting that is coming after/ with it. It is not meant to make any dmg easy to hit because the target can dodge (is NOT locked down).

How does old unblockable Death Judgement have more counterplay? It doens't need to interrupt it doesn't even need an interrupt or a lock down to hit. It dmg on hit and the time inbetween the reveal of the thief and the hit of that skill is so short that a hit is almost guaranteed. Unblockable means it cannot even be blocked, if you try to los it the thief stays in stealth and change position to hit you just a bit later. Stabi doesn't work vs a dmg skill, every movement and aegis or invuln skill a thief can just wait out in stealth. I meantioned at least 10 counters to Mantra and i barely can find 3 for this thief skill.

Tools meant to interrupt as prime nature need to be instant and for that are ofc not allowed to have anything else than a short daze and some not too op effects you only get when interrupting and these effects are not allowed to be that strong that braindead spamming dazes to accidently interrupt an autoattack is rewarding enough already. These btw is the reason why Ci was a problem without Mantra and also on power already, the reward was so strong, that randomly interrupting autoattacks here and there was more then enough to flip the fight into Mesmers favor or even completely win it. You don't need an instant interrupt tool for that ofc. Your other casttime and animation dazes/stun will do that job too.

Pls oces again for a useful balance suggestion don't compare apples with oranges (like trevor sometimes like to do), don't exaggerate (like lot of ppl like to do, countless trying to make mantra look op by claiming 4 attibutes during 3 of them are the same and result form it being instant, no need to split them all up to exaggerate, just like Jawgeous did) and know exactly what you are talking about and name the correct things (like the one guy complaining about mantra but then was totally happy with only CI got disabled already).

@op: high ping is rly not a balance argument at all but what you say is still true, even with normal ping the casttimes of most skills in this game are less than 1 sec, means an interrupt tool needs to be instant to not be totally unviable and useless.

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

Just gonna say it one more time: I really believe the core underlying problem here, after actually running this build for awhile, is not CI or MOD. The core issue is that ambush damage off of clones with IH is just too high while running Mirage Condi. Chaith had made a comment awhile back, something like: "At some point with Mirage, Mesmers had become like a Turret Engi." I agree, that's exactly what it feels like. With Condi Mirage variants, it doesn't even really reward proper Shattering anymore, but rather it rewards setting up a kitten load of clones and letting them machine gun down anyone who stays in the area while the Mirage plays 100% defensively. This kind of gameplay is not healthy, regardless of if someone believes it is OP or not.

You starting to get closer. Continue with logic: When IH is not a problem on power but only on condi than is IH really the problem? Or would nerfing IH not only unnecessary nerf power again? IH is only op and totally passive for Condimes because as i mentioned often already the condi clone autoattacks and condi clone ambushes make like 100 times more (condi-) dmg than power clones autoattack and ambushes. On Power weapons IH has a way bigger active gameplay part, more combos with providing utility (short daze for interrupts, vuln+might stacks before a burst) instead just op and passive dmg application. Nerfs on IH would kill the active gameplay part and high skillceilling of IH more than the passive ones because the passivity is based in the ambush skills of scepter, staff and axe itself and not based in IH. Direct your clones to do a special action (press dodge to tell your clones to leap and daze for example) is per se active gameplay. It only becomes passive when the effects you get from dodging are so high that you can still dodge purely defensive and let clones do all the work during you are afk on a safe spot or out of los. Even 3 GS clones would never kill any class/ build without the mesmer doing anyhting else than dodging during standing out of los. To make Condimes more skillbased again without unnecessary kill a skillbased spec like Power Anet needs to nerf the hell out of condi clone normal autoattacks and condi ambush attacks (scepter, staff, axe) and give Mesmer some active ways of condiapplication back (through shatters). During the immob on CI clearly still needs to go in any case.

[TAIKA.1903]

@TAIKA.1903 said:p.s.If you played WOW before, most of great healers or mage know how to cheat enemy to waste their interrupt skill.And once they got interrupt, they can't use most of the skill they have about 4~8 sec.

Two games are very different.

Yes, you are right, i'll delete it.

[Bazsi.2734]

@TAIKA.1903 said:(I speak English badly, so if you can't understand what I said, I apologize for it)

As a power mesmer main player who play with CI and powerlock, I got top 25 (NA) with these 2 traits as a power chrono mesmer few seasons ago before POF

This is a really weird post. I played the incedibly busted CI+MoD chrono for only a few matches and already saw how it's broken beyond belief.

At least I think I can say there are lots of people who said CI and MOD are OP because they do not try to use their brain to cast skills or cancel them.

You don't need to aim for key skills, just interrupt ANYTHING. Also you're not limited to MoD, stack all the CC-s possible in one build.

First, it it not that easy to interrupt ppl with MOD after you see the animation of skills. Most of skills only need 0.25~0.75 sec for casting. And as an Asian player, I play gw2 with 200~250 ping, it is very hard to interrupt those skills (I only have about 0.05~0.55 sec to act when I see the animation).

That's a handicap we cannot calculate into balance though, so I'm ignoring that part. For example I play with almost 0 ping because of the place I live.

Second, it is very hard to interrupt skills after HOT because there are lots of classes has stabilities. We have to wait for a long time after the stabilities disappear and then we have a chance to interrupt.

Maybe with your build, you have to. The build I made (tried to copy the CI chrono menace the first time I encountered it), had multiple boonrips, so anything short of pulsing stability was meaningless against me.

Thank for reading my post, I just like gw2 and mesmers, I still wanna gw2 become a much better game for everyone. But I can't stand for some people who did not try MOD or CI before and judge them OP.

Playing it was what made me think its broken beyond belief. If I haven't tried it, maybe I would have though deleting CI from the game was a bad thing.Target is autoattacking? Throw an MoD on it! Target may won't be casting anything because they saw you coming in range? Pistol 5 that mofo and proceed with the condispam/burst... Enemy ranger just used the elite so that he can counter you with stability? Arcane Thievery that stability for yourself, and proceed with the interruptspam.When all you have on your bar is interrupts and boonrips, you can just brainlessly spam them and still achive results. If you add miniscule amounts of thinking (like kiting for 4-5 seconds when the enemy warrior pops a balanced stance, or only using your boonrips on stability), this build is almost unstoppable.

And this coming from someone who can't even properly play mesmer. If I can roflstomp plat 3 players(I haven't played ranked for more then a year now), there is a problem.

TL;DR - It was possible to abuse CI by stacking CC-s and boonrips, which resulted in spammy and degenerative gameplay. Just because you didn't go all out in that direction, it was still possible. Chrono needed rework and CI needed to be destroyed.

[Ben K.6238]

@Tayga.3192 said:Quick edit: Nerf clones buff mesmer

I played different builds against variety of different CI mirages (from bronze to plat) but I never really had any problem except when I played renegade or herald (I am very bad at rev).

However, I understand that it can be annoying. Not strong but annoying. Same as core mesmer.

Rev has limited stability, so that won't help.

I'd be keen to have CI and Power Block reworked to offer the following:

Power Block: Might + fury + damage on interrupt, no additional CC effects on opponentChaotic Interruption: Add an extra 20 seconds of cooldown to interrupted skill (with a 60-90 second cooldown on this effect so you actually have to think about when to use the first interrupt). Gain a random defensive boon each time you successfully interrupt a skill.

I've always thought it was a bit weird to have a counterplay-based interrupt trait in the Domination line, which is generally a line you only take in builds that can burst targets down fast enough for the cooldown penalty to be irrelevant.

[Edit: I'd also prefer to see Ineptitude in the Dueling line swapped out with something else drawn from GW1, e.g. Power Drain. Where it would grant you 25% endurance on a successful interrupt (obviously with an ICD, something around 10 seconds probably) and remove endurance from the target. Confusion spam can stay in the Illusions line.]

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 If you don't understand why MoD is instant and has no tells, I'm sorry to say but you have no clue about gaming. At maximum rupts can be 1/4, otherwise their whole purpose doesn't work.

@Ben K.6238Chaotic Interruption: Add an extra 20 seconds of cooldown to interrupted skill (with a 60-90 second cooldown on this effect so you actually have to think about when to use the first interrupt). Gain a random defensive boon each time you successfully interrupt a skill.

If I understood this the 60-90 is an ICD on CI, if that is the case, it would be a worthless trait, since you would be wasting a 60sec trait to get a skill cd up to 20.A more sensible approach would be +20sec cd with a 10sec-15 tops ICD.As for the power drain it would be cool, that or arcane languor, every time you rupt foe would get exhaustion for x seconds, with ICD.

[UNOwen.7132]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Before I say this, know that I am one of the people who said on several occasions: "That I didn't think CI Mantra Condis was as OP as people claimed." but if you're talking about people complaining about MOD specifically, you should consider this:

Consider playing other classes, where CCing someone and interrupting a skill, requires chasing them with a melee weapon and actually connecting with it. Consider it requires significant effort to hit with a Skull Grinder or an Earth Shaker or a Reaper #5. All of these types of CCs have obvious tells, the animations are long, and they are obviously inc when a melee character is riding you in melee, so people know when to "be ready" to engage and counter play other such CCs.

MOD on the other hand, is an instant cast CC and an instant strike nonetheless. It requires no cast time and no projectile travel time, such as a Headshot or a Ranger LB #4. A Mesmer can stand 1200 range outside of a team fight, and freely CC assist vs. any target that he chooses, leaving absolutely no room for visual counter play on the part of the player's he is focusing.

This is why people complain about MOD. It has less counter play than even the old unblockable Death's Judgement man. That's just obnoxious.

I mean even the unblockable deaths judgment had a ton of counterplay on account of being the most telegraphed skill in the game (Bright Orange line and a loud and obnoxious sound with enough time to just dodge). A better comparision would be backstab.

[UNOwen.7132]

@bravan.3876 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Before I say this, know that I am one of the people who said on several occasions: "That I didn't think CI Mantra Condis was as OP as people claimed." but if you're talking about people complaining about MOD specifically, you should consider this:

Consider playing other classes, where CCing someone and interrupting a skill, requires chasing them with a melee weapon and actually connecting with it. Consider it requires significant effort to hit with a Skull Grinder or an Earth Shaker or a Reaper #5. All of these types of CCs have obvious tells, the animations are long, and they are obviously inc when a melee character is riding you in melee, so people know when to "be ready" to engage and counter play other such CCs.

MOD on the other hand, is an instant cast CC and an instant strike nonetheless. It requires no cast time and no projectile travel time, such as a Headshot or a Ranger LB #4. A Mesmer can stand 1200 range outside of a team fight, and freely CC assist vs. any target that he chooses, leaving absolutely no room for visual counter play on the part of the player's he is focusing.

This is why people complain about MOD. It has less counter play than even the old unblockable Death's Judgement man. That's just obnoxious.

None of the skills you mentioned have the interrupt as goal, they are clearly not designed as an interrupt tool from Anet. The Warrior skill deals dmg, gives you 4 conditions (2 dmg conditions) and dazes in addition as a pure defensive nature not rly to interrupt. It can crit in its dmg, All that without the need of intrrupting anything and without the need to use an additional trait. This is not an interrupt skill this is a dmg skill with additional bonus effects. A Warrior will hit it for the dmg and will not use it to interrupt primarely. Not even the daze has an interrupt nature here, here its just a defensive boni just like cripple is an offensive boni so the melee Warrior can stay close to the target easier. You want to compare that with an utility skill that only dazes and nothing else?

All other skills you mentioned are hard cc lock down skills that include dmg on hit means without the need of interrupting and without the need of an additional trait , they are not meant for interrupting at all. Also daze is not a lock down. Ofc hard cc lock down is not allowed to be instant and they are not meant to intrrupt they are meant to lock down so the player can hit follow up dmg skills during the player cannot dodge. That is a basic difference between lock down and interrupt skills ppl don't seem to understand even tho i explained the difference several times. Ofc it would be op if Warrior hammer skills or Warrior Bullscharge would be instant. These skills are not even interrupt skills, they are not meant for that purpose. The cc is either a lock down or when it is a daze only, then just as a defensive boni on a skill that is primarely a dmg skill. These are no interrupt skills!!! And that is why stun from old CS trait or immob from CI was op, because then Mesmer had an instant lock down together with Mantra of Distraction. Mantra itself only dazes and with balanced traits like Powerblock it doesn't become an lock down, it is still only a daze and ppl can dodge everyhting that is coming after/ with it. It is not meant to make any dmg easy to hit because the target can dodge (is NOT locked down).

How does old unblockable Death Judgement have more counterplay? It doens't need to interrupt it doesn't even need an interrupt or a lock down to hit. It dmg on hit and the time inbetween the reveal of the thief and the hit of that skill is so short that a hit is almost guaranteed. Unblockable means it cannot even be blocked, if you try to los it the thief stays in stealth and change position to hit you just a bit later. Stabi doesn't work vs a dmg skill, every movement and aegis or invuln skill a thief can just wait out in stealth. I meantioned at least 10 counters to Mantra and i barely can find 3 for this thief skill.

Tools meant to interrupt as prime nature need to be instant and for that are ofc not allowed to have anything else than a short daze and some not too op effects you only get when interrupting and these effects are not allowed to be that strong that braindead spamming dazes to accidently interrupt an autoattack is rewarding enough already. These btw is the reason why Ci was a problem without Mantra and also on power already, the reward was so strong, that randomly interrupting autoattacks here and there was more then enough to flip the fight into Mesmers favor or even completely win it. You don't need an instant interrupt tool for that ofc. Your other casttime and animation dazes/stun will do that job too.

Pls oces again for a useful balance suggestion don't compare apples with oranges (like trevor sometimes like to do), don't exaggerate (like lot of ppl like to do, countless trying to make mantra look op by claiming 4 attibutes during 3 of them are the same and result form it being instant, no need to split them all up to exaggerate, just like Jawgeous did) and know exactly what you are talking about and name the correct things (like the one guy complaining about mantra but then was totally happy with only CI got disabled already).

@op: high ping is rly not a balance argument at all but what you say is still true, even with normal ping the casttimes of most skills in this game are less than 1 sec, means an interrupt tool needs to be instant to not be totally unviable and useless.

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

Just gonna say it one more time:

I really believe the core underlying problem here, after actually running this build for awhile, is not CI or MOD. The core issue is that ambush damage off of clones with IH is just too high while running Mirage Condi.

Chaith had made a comment awhile back, something like: "At some point with Mirage, Mesmers had become like a Turret Engi." I agree, that's exactly what it feels like. With Condi Mirage variants, it doesn't even really reward proper Shattering anymore, but rather it rewards setting up a kitten load of clones and letting them machine gun down anyone who stays in the area while the Mirage plays 100% defensively. This kind of gameplay is not healthy, regardless of if someone believes it is OP or not.

You starting to get closer. Continue with logic: When IH is not a problem on power but only on condi than is IH really the problem? Or would nerfing IH not only unnecessary nerf power again? IH is only op and totally passive for Condimes because as i mentioned often already the condi clone autoattacks and condi clone ambushes make like 100 times more (condi-) dmg than power clones autoattack and ambushes. On Power weapons IH has a way bigger active gameplay part, more combos with providing utility (short daze for interrupts, vuln+might stacks before a burst) instead just op and passive dmg application. Nerfs on IH would kill the active gameplay part and high skillceilling of IH more than the passive ones because the passivity is based in the ambush skills of scepter, staff and axe itself and not based in IH. Direct your clones to do a special action (press dodge to tell your clones to leap and daze for example) is per se active gameplay. It only becomes passive when the effects you get from dodging are so high that you can still dodge purely defensive and let clones do all the work during you are afk on a safe spot or out of los. Even 3 GS clones would never kill any class/ build without the mesmer doing anyhting else than dodging during standing out of los. To make Condimes more skillbased again without unnecessary kill a skillbased spec like Power Anet needs to nerf the hell out of condi clone normal autoattacks and condi ambush attacks (scepter, staff, axe) and give Mesmer some active ways of condiapplication back (through shatters). During the immob on CI clearly still needs to go in any case.

So, the thief skill that you can just dodge, that is also nice enough to give you two seperate very obvious and impossible to ignore signs that you need to dodge right now is harder to deal with than an instant cast interrupt. You also failed to mention a single counter to Mantra. Mainly because there well, isnt one. Stability doesnt work, Mesmer can just boonrip, you cant dodge it, its instant, you cant block it, the mesmer will just not use it/its instant, so on and so forth.

Oh and let me just make it clear that it doesnt have to be instant. Are you familiar with D/P thief? Its a nifty little thief build that, due to the swipe change currently isnt really playable, but used to be the thief build of choice. Its a build that relies entirely on interrupting key skill, and getting damage from Impacting Distractions by doing so. Guess what its interrupt of choice is? Headshot. A skill that isnt instant. Which makes it fairer and easier to deal with. Thats what MoD should be, at the bare minimum.

[Tayga.3192]

@UNOwen.7132 said:Oh and let me just make it clear that it doesnt have to be instant. Are you familiar with D/P thief? Its a nifty little thief build that, due to the swipe change currently isnt really playable, but used to be the thief build of choice. Its a build that relies entirely on interrupting key skill, and getting damage from Impacting Distractions by doing so. Guess what its interrupt of choice is? Headshot. A skill that isnt instant. Which makes it fairer and easier to deal with. Thats what MoD should be, at the bare minimum.

Headshot is more spammable than MoD, w/o preparing time, w/o wasting an utility slot.

PS: I used to play d/p dd better than s/d core before swipe

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@bravan.3876 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Before I say this, know that I am one of the people who said on several occasions: "That I didn't think CI Mantra Condis was as OP as people claimed." but if you're talking about people complaining about MOD specifically, you should consider this:

Consider playing other classes, where CCing someone and interrupting a skill, requires chasing them with a melee weapon and actually connecting with it. Consider it requires significant effort to hit with a Skull Grinder or an Earth Shaker or a Reaper #5. All of these types of CCs have obvious tells, the animations are long, and they are obviously inc when a melee character is riding you in melee, so people know when to "be ready" to engage and counter play other such CCs.

MOD on the other hand, is an instant cast CC and an instant strike nonetheless. It requires no cast time and no projectile travel time, such as a Headshot or a Ranger LB #4. A Mesmer can stand 1200 range outside of a team fight, and freely CC assist vs. any target that he chooses, leaving absolutely no room for visual counter play on the part of the player's he is focusing.

This is why people complain about MOD. It has less counter play than even the old unblockable Death's Judgement man. That's just obnoxious.

None of the skills you mentioned have the interrupt as goal, they are clearly not designed as an interrupt tool from Anet. The Warrior skill deals dmg, gives you 4 conditions (2 dmg conditions) and dazes in addition as a pure defensive nature not rly to interrupt. It can crit in its dmg, All that without the need of intrrupting anything and without the need to use an additional trait. This is not an interrupt skill this is a dmg skill with additional bonus effects. A Warrior will hit it for the dmg and will not use it to interrupt primarely. Not even the daze has an interrupt nature here, here its just a defensive boni just like cripple is an offensive boni so the melee Warrior can stay close to the target easier. You want to compare that with an utility skill that only dazes and nothing else?

All other skills you mentioned are hard cc lock down skills that include dmg on hit means without the need of interrupting and without the need of an additional trait , they are not meant for interrupting at all. Also daze is not a lock down. Ofc hard cc lock down is not allowed to be instant and they are not meant to intrrupt they are meant to lock down so the player can hit follow up dmg skills during the player cannot dodge. That is a basic difference between lock down and interrupt skills ppl don't seem to understand even tho i explained the difference several times. Ofc it would be op if Warrior hammer skills or Warrior Bullscharge would be instant. These skills are not even interrupt skills, they are not meant for that purpose. The cc is either a lock down or when it is a daze only, then just as a defensive boni on a skill that is primarely a dmg skill. These are no interrupt skills!!! And that is why stun from old CS trait or immob from CI was op, because then Mesmer had an instant lock down together with Mantra of Distraction. Mantra itself only dazes and with balanced traits like Powerblock it doesn't become an lock down, it is still only a daze and ppl can dodge everyhting that is coming after/ with it. It is not meant to make any dmg easy to hit because the target can dodge (is NOT locked down).

How does old unblockable Death Judgement have more counterplay? It doens't need to interrupt it doesn't even need an interrupt or a lock down to hit. It dmg on hit and the time inbetween the reveal of the thief and the hit of that skill is so short that a hit is almost guaranteed. Unblockable means it cannot even be blocked, if you try to los it the thief stays in stealth and change position to hit you just a bit later. Stabi doesn't work vs a dmg skill, every movement and aegis or invuln skill a thief can just wait out in stealth. I meantioned at least 10 counters to Mantra and i barely can find 3 for this thief skill.

Tools meant to interrupt as prime nature need to be instant and for that are ofc not allowed to have anything else than a short daze and some not too op effects you only get when interrupting and these effects are not allowed to be that strong that braindead spamming dazes to accidently interrupt an autoattack is rewarding enough already. These btw is the reason why Ci was a problem without Mantra and also on power already, the reward was so strong, that randomly interrupting autoattacks here and there was more then enough to flip the fight into Mesmers favor or even completely win it. You don't need an instant interrupt tool for that ofc. Your other casttime and animation dazes/stun will do that job too.

Pls oces again for a useful balance suggestion don't compare apples with oranges (like trevor sometimes like to do), don't exaggerate (like lot of ppl like to do, countless trying to make mantra look op by claiming 4 attibutes during 3 of them are the same and result form it being instant, no need to split them all up to exaggerate, just like Jawgeous did) and know exactly what you are talking about and name the correct things (like the one guy complaining about mantra but then was totally happy with only CI got disabled already).

@op: high ping is rly not a balance argument at all but what you say is still true, even with normal ping the casttimes of most skills in this game are less than 1 sec, means an interrupt tool needs to be instant to not be totally unviable and useless.

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

Just gonna say it one more time:

I really believe the core underlying problem here, after actually running this build for awhile, is not CI or MOD. The core issue is that ambush damage off of clones with IH is just too high while running Mirage Condi.

Chaith had made a comment awhile back, something like: "At some point with Mirage, Mesmers had become like a Turret Engi." I agree, that's exactly what it feels like. With Condi Mirage variants, it doesn't even really reward proper Shattering anymore, but rather it rewards setting up a kitten load of clones and letting them machine gun down anyone who stays in the area while the Mirage plays 100% defensively. This kind of gameplay is not healthy, regardless of if someone believes it is OP or not.

You starting to get closer. Continue with logic: When IH is not a problem on power but only on condi than is IH really the problem? Or would nerfing IH not only unnecessary nerf power again? IH is only op and totally passive for Condimes because as i mentioned often already the condi clone autoattacks and condi clone ambushes make like 100 times more (condi-) dmg than power clones autoattack and ambushes. On Power weapons IH has a way bigger active gameplay part, more combos with providing utility (short daze for interrupts, vuln+might stacks before a burst) instead just op and passive dmg application. Nerfs on IH would kill the active gameplay part and high skillceilling of IH more than the passive ones because the passivity is based in the ambush skills of scepter, staff and axe itself and not based in IH. Direct your clones to do a special action (press dodge to tell your clones to leap and daze for example) is per se active gameplay. It only becomes passive when the effects you get from dodging are so high that you can still dodge purely defensive and let clones do all the work during you are afk on a safe spot or out of los. Even 3 GS clones would never kill any class/ build without the mesmer doing anyhting else than dodging during standing out of los. To make Condimes more skillbased again without unnecessary kill a skillbased spec like Power Anet needs to nerf the hell out of condi clone normal autoattacks and condi ambush attacks (scepter, staff, axe) and give Mesmer some active ways of condiapplication back (through shatters). During the immob on CI clearly still needs to go in any case.

1. "None of the skills you mentioned have the interrupt as goal, they are clearly not designed as an interrupt tool from Anet" - Yeah yeah yeah, that's why every CC in the game interrupts skills right? Because they weren't designed to interrupt skills. Very logical assessment you have there. When you get down to what CCs are in Guild Wars 2, they are all the same thing, in slightly different forms. These are effects that stop an opponent's actions. Some of them are slower than others or create a knockdown for 2s as opposed to a 1s daze. But one thing is kitten certain, they all interrupt skills & actions. Ultimately you could rate every CC in the game from 1 to 10 where 1 was an underpowered CC that wasn't convenient to use that also had small results, vs. 10 being a very convenient to use CC that had strong results. Clearly MOD would be amongst the two or three 10 rated CCs in the game. What I had pointed out about MOD is that it is the only instant cast CC in the game and an ammo skill at that, which can be used simultaneously during other big burst skills and chained into whatever other animations the Mesmer chooses. It can even be used defensively while knocked down on the %^&*ing ground. I don't know where you're trying to go with your defense? I think it is, but it's horsepucky. I interrupt key targeted skills just fine with Hilt Bash, Point Blank Shot, Path of Scars, Gazelle F2 Charge, and Taunts from Protect Me. I'm sure other experienced players of other classes would tell you the same thing. We all use our CCs to interrupt key skills. That's what CCs do. MOD is clearly the most versatile & often most powerful CC skill in the game. It is actually so good that is makes skills like Signet of Humility, Basilisk Venom, Dragon's Maw, Headbutt, Tornado, Chilled To The Bone, Entangle, look bad. And those are supposed to be elite CC skills. What MOD is, is a skill that allows the Mesmer to essentially upgrade any of its other attacks or actions, into a CC effect. The tactful wealth in this, is outstanding. Could you imagine if Berserker Rifle Warriors had some kind of 2 ammo instant cast instant strike no animation daze to use with Killshot or Eviscerate? Everyone would throw a shit fit over it. And don't tell me that's any different than shattering on someone for a 1HKO because it isn't. I would just like to point out that I didn't claim MOD was OP, but I did want to stress how powerful that skill is, and that Mesmer mains need to stop acting like this skill is completely innocent within the formulae that often creates completely busted Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage builds, because it isn't. I didn't say MOD needs any nerfing! In fact I strictly pointed out that I believe it is ok on all power builds and that it is specifically IH and clone spam damage being too high, that makes MOD feel busted.
2. You seem to have a misunderstanding between "your idea of what a lock-down is" and what other people mean when they say "I'm getting locked-down." I notice that you have formed your own definition of quite exactly what a lock-down is and what skills are or aren't lock-downs. I notice that your definition of what lock-downs are, conveniently suits your Mirage defense, because apparently Condi Mirage CI was somehow not locking anyone down by your definitions, lol. So what other mean when they say "I'm getting locked-down" is simply that there is so much hard & soft CC effects being thrown at them, that it transcends the counter play offered by their build structure's amount of cleanse/stunbreak and CD times provided. When they say they are being "locked-down" it means exactly what it sounds like, they are locked down and there is no way out of the situation. Real simple, easy to understand.
3. "How does old unblockable Death Judgement have more counterplay?" - Even unblockable Death's Judgement has a big red line that goes to you, a big loud noise that happens, and it is a single animation, so no other surprises are happening simultaneously during the strike. There is no possibility that the DE is going to chain a lock-down at the same time or possibly dodge while attacking you at the same time. Even the time in between reveals and DJ was telegraphed as all hell and easy to perceive. The DE also had to play it safe and stay away from the target or risk immediate death. This means the DE couldn't be aggressive and chase a target into heavy anti-LOS areas because (A) DJ is a projectile so this is no good, and (B) all it takes is 1 counter CC followed up with a good single strike and the DE is down. Mirage on the other hand, can get aggressive and stay on a target. In fact, targets are more vulnerable to the CI Mirage's gimmick when they are retreating like that instead of being aggressive. That's what made CI Condi Mirage so strong, is that it forced people into this time limit so to say, to have to be very aggressive with it for any kill potential, because trying to play defensively and roll around vs. 100% uptime of heavy clone attrition damage, just results in death or node lose each and every time. Point being: even old unblockable DJ DEs saw little to no representation 1600+ in NA outside of Acani and Clown. Why? Because at higher tiers, it was too easy to counter play DJ and DEs in general. <- That is actually true. And even the ONE gimmick they had that sort of replicated MOD+CI, wasn't quite strong enough. A single Withdraw or Lightning Reflex or a Judge's Intervention, ect ect, would get you out of the short KD and Immob and the DE wouldn't have any other CC effects to follow up. Even if they did, they wouldn't have time to use the lower damage effects. They had to lay on that damage output hard or opponents would get all over them and in that case they died immediately.
4. "Tools meant to interrupt as prime nature need to be instant and for that are ofc not allowed to have anything else than a short daze and some not too op effects you only get when interrupting and these effects are not allowed to be that strong that braindead spamming dazes to accidently interrupt an autoattack is rewarding enough already. These btw is the reason why Ci was a problem without Mantra and also on power already, the reward was so strong, that randomly interrupting autoattacks here and there was more then enough to flip the fight into Mesmers favor or even completely win it. You don't need an instant interrupt tool for that ofc. Your other casttime and animation dazes/stun will do that job too." - I see what you mean here, but you've got to understand that this is a matter of opinion. In every conversation you show up to about MOD, you seem to immediately assume that every player outside of yourself, is completely ignorant and doesn't understand the difference between MOD and CI and how they work together. The thing is, is that some people are voicing their opinions on that they don't care about CI effects, they find the instant casting Dazing to be wat annoys them the most, and these people are completely aware of how it all works. Maybe this is because they run a Guardian and have plenty of cleanse but not as much stability or stunbreaks. Then you have others who claim CI is the problem and they don't care so much about the daze as much as they do the Immob. Maybe this is because they run a build with plenty of stab/stunbreaks, that lacks a bit of cleanse which often results in their deaths happening due to a 3s Immob. It's all just opinions. None of them are necessary right or wrong, but some of them may be more informed than others. This doesn't mean that everyone posting is a completely ignorant fool. My own opinion is that the problem is neither. MOD is fine on all power based builds. MOD+CI is fine even on Mesmer/Chrono Condi. MOD+CI on Mirage Condi however, is busted AF. What's the difference? Mirage Cloak mechanics and Infinite Horizon allowing high ambush damage clone spam 100% of the time. But MOD is the strongest and most convenient & easy to use CC in the game, which is fine in my opinion, Mesmers need it. But Mesmers should Acknowledge how powerful MOD is, and stop acting like it somehow exists outside of the formulae that keeps providing us Saiyan like Mirage builds. I don't believe that MOD needs any nerfing or alteration. But Mesmer mains need to understand why other players are creating debates about MOD.
5. "To make Condimes more skillbased again without unnecessary kill a skillbased spec like Power Anet needs to nerf the hell out of condi clone normal autoattacks and condi ambush attacks (scepter, staff, axe) and give Mesmer some active ways of condiapplication back (through shatters). During the immob on CI clearly still needs to go in any case." - I can agree with that.

But you should try relaxing man. You don't have to go for the throat each and every time you create a response.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Oh and let me just make it clear that it doesnt have to be instant. Are you familiar with D/P thief? Its a nifty little thief build that, due to the swipe change currently isnt really playable, but used to be

the

thief build of choice. Its a build that relies entirely on interrupting key skill, and getting damage from Impacting Distractions by doing so. Guess what its interrupt of choice is? Headshot. A skill that

isnt

instant. Which makes it fairer and easier to deal with. Thats what MoD should be, at the bare minimum.

Headshot is more spammable than MoD, w/o preparing time, w/o wasting an utility slot.

PS: I used to play d/p dd better than s/d core before swipe

If you were to spam Headshot, it has dedicated animation frames. This means that although you were laying down a chain of CCs, you wouldn't be dealing any damage while doing it. IF a Thief could somehow use Headshot as an instant cast like MOD, anytime it wanted to, while going in for offense with high damage skills, we'd have a problem on our hands. The Thief could rely on its boon removal vs stability, and fear no counterstrikes going in with chainable daze effects that happen simultaneously as it is attacking an opponent, because it would just routinely interrupt w/e the opponent was trying to do.

No CC in the game is comparable to MOD, in terms of sheer versatility and what it is enabling Mesmers to do. I would say that all power Mesmer builds need it. Without it, they're too weak. Mes/Chrono are fine with even with condi. But Condi Mirage makes it look busted due to clone ambush spam.

I don't think it needs nerfing or altering. But people need to stop trying to downplay the raw sheer strength behind MOD. The skill is strong as all hell and it's something Arenanet needs to be paying attention to while forming new skill patches and/or new specializations around it.

[XECOR.2814]

Just dont cast skills to not get interrupted 4head.

That trait was a disease and its gone for good. Move on.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:Oh and let me just make it clear that it doesnt have to be instant. Are you familiar with D/P thief? Its a nifty little thief build that, due to the swipe change currently isnt really playable, but used to be

the

thief build of choice. Its a build that relies entirely on interrupting key skill, and getting damage from Impacting Distractions by doing so. Guess what its interrupt of choice is? Headshot. A skill that

isnt

instant. Which makes it fairer and easier to deal with. Thats what MoD should be, at the bare minimum.

Headshot is more spammable than MoD, w/o preparing time, w/o wasting an utility slot.

PS: I used to play d/p dd better than s/d core before swipe

"Wasting" a utility slot, yeah right. Lets of course also ignore that MoD doesnt take up your entire profession-specific resource, meaning you can only use it, and nothing else, while MoD just lets you use the entirety of the rest of your kit for damage. Because otherwise wed have to concede that MoD is in fact faaaar better than Headshot is.

[Badcat.7320]

mes need less instants for sure

[Tayga.3192]

@"UNOwen.7132" said:"Wasting" a utility slot, yeah right. Lets of course also ignore that MoD doesnt take up your entire profession-specific resource, meaning you can only use it, and nothing else, while MoD just lets you use the entirety of the rest of your kit for damage. Because otherwise wed have to concede that MoD is in fact faaaar better than Headshot is.

Of course a utility skill is stronger than a weapon skill. It wastes a slot so it better be good or it would be unusable. A weapon skill can be bad/mediocre but it can be carried by other skills in the same weapon (renegade shortbow, warrior gs etc).

By the way I always said that nefing portal will make mesmer stronger because they will actually use 3 utilities now.