The new PvP meta - whine till a class is deleted.

[Zin Dau.1749]

The player's job is to find the best build. They didn't design the "degenerate" skills or this situation where stunlock build is top tier. Any designer worth their salt knows that over abundance of griefing skills together is not fun. That's why it's fine for several years, because the former design teams knew to keep it in check. In particular, this build won't work without good control. So particularly baffling is a recent patch when they buffed up an instant cast daze to 50% longer duration.

It was after this new "grand vision of design" ideology sprang up that healthy Mesmer builds were in neverending flux. That the designers left players no choice but to seek alternative builds. Unfortunately for other classes, this build happened to be super effective at griefing and degenerate gameplay.

In a way, when devs try to mess with mesmers, the mesmers get the last laugh.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@Heartpains.7312 said:

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:In the entire traitlines:Duelling - 1good traitChaos - dead at pvp, 1 good trait in wvwIllusion - 1 good traitDom - 2 or 3 good traitsInspi - meme traitlineMirage - 1 good traitChrono - dead thanks to no ip

Next on the lines - IH to end mirage once and for all.

I think they will start with "redesigning" shatters for mirage and they will make it so we need at least 1 illusion to shatter, of course the redesigned shatters are weaker =p

At this point, if they bring back on demand shatters Ill take the "1 clone minimum"

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Jasher.6580 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:Could be worse... you could be like Thief, where a New PvP ruleset completely DISABLES a major kitten part of your class.

Hard facts. Imagine not being able to use a mechanic your class is built around for a large portion of its damage mitigation if you want to 2v2. If you dont have HoT expack and run condi daredevil thief, you're screwed.

@"judgebeo.3976" said:

IMO anet is acting like a "fireman", just do something when is a bit too late, and something that is just extreme. Remove an entire trait... the funny thing is that trait has been there for ages, i've been using that for ages... no problem...but

suddenly everyone starts to use mantra and CI

, then whinners come to forums and anet decide to remove something that has been there for ages...

Imagine being sick for a good portion of your life and a doctor finds out what your illness is, but you get angry at the doctor for suggesting they cure it because you've had it for so long.

Something being broken for a long time doesn't insulate it against fixing.

Imagine having a skin condition on your face for a good portion of your life and the doctor finds out what your illness is, but he tells you to wear a bag on your head until they find out how to clean up your skin because it is too offensive for others to look at.

Me: Um... okay doc, when are you gonna find the cure? How long do I have to wear this? There aren't even any holes in it, I can't breathe properly... I can't see. You are limiting my physical capabilities.

Doc: Bruh... I'm not sure but you have to wear this bag until then... nobody deserves to see that face.

Me: But my face broke out like this because of the cream you gave me... so this is your fault.

Doc: Yeah... well such is life.

This analogy works if you are a gorgon and people seeing your face kills them.

[Simonoly.4352]

I didn't realise so many people were so unprepared for interrupt playstyles that Anet had to disable some functionality to help them. It's a bit...tragic. GW1 Mesmer certainly turning in its grave right now.

Also, counterplay to CI/MoD combo: stability, cleansing, resistance, cancel casting, cover casting, general awareness that there is a class that can reactively interrupt your small cast time skills where usually there's no possibility of an interrupt occurring and, umm, Thieves.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@"Simonoly.4352" said:I didn't realise so many people were so unprepared for interrupt playstyles that Anet had to disable some functionality to help them. It's a bit...tragic. GW1 Mesmer certainly turning in its grave right now.

Also, counterplay to CI/MoD combo: stability, cleansing, resistance, cancel casting, cover casting, general awareness that there is a class that can reactively interrupt your small cast time skills where usually there's no possibility of an interrupt occurring and, umm, Thieves.

Too bad they went for, "Whine until the trait gets disabled because apparently a 10 second ICD is hard to add."

[Lagosta.9683]

@Simonoly.4352 said:I didn't realise so many people were so unprepared for interrupt playstyles that Anet had to disable some functionality to help them. It's a bit...tragic. GW1 Mesmer certainly turning in its grave right now.

Also, counterplay to CI/MoD combo: stability, cleansing, resistance, cancel casting, cover casting, general awareness that there is a class that can reactively interrupt your small cast time skills where usually there's no possibility of an interrupt occurring and, umm, Thieves.

If these people played gw1 I would roll echo+blackout just to troll them.GW1 mes was way more powerful than gw2 and no one cried.They have no idea what mes is suppose to be and are stripping away the only things that made mes a mesmer.

[judgebeo.3976]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:Could be worse... you could be like Thief, where a New PvP ruleset completely DISABLES a major kitten part of your class.

Hard facts. Imagine not being able to use a mechanic your class is built around for a large portion of its damage mitigation if you want to 2v2. If you dont have HoT expack and run condi daredevil thief, you're screwed.

@"judgebeo.3976" said:

IMO anet is acting like a "fireman", just do something when is a bit too late, and something that is just extreme. Remove an entire trait... the funny thing is that trait has been there for ages, i've been using that for ages... no problem...but

suddenly everyone starts to use mantra and CI

, then whinners come to forums and anet decide to remove something that has been there for ages...

Imagine being sick for a good portion of your life and a doctor finds out what your illness is, but you get angry at the doctor for suggesting they cure it because you've had it for so long.

Something being broken for a long time doesn't insulate it against fixing.

you didnt understand nothing or just manipulate part of my threat to get an argument. The questions are:

• If is broken why it didn't been a problem for that LOOOONG time?
• If is broken why didnt anet detect it before a bunch of whinners came to forums?
• if is broken for ages why didnt find a better way than remove the entire trait?
• ....

I can just put a ton of question to say that the problem is not that the trait is broken or not, the problem is that anet just one to ppl shut up on the forums and, actually, give us the feelling that they didn't understand their own game.

So, for you to understand, im not discussing if it is broken or not, we can discuss this in other threat, im saying that devs seems to have no idea (or got some strange plan) about what is happening in the game, and just wait and if there is bunch of people on forums crying like little kids, as a bad father, anet, do whatever is necessary for the kid to shut up.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@"judgebeo.3976" said:you didnt understand nothing or just manipulate part of my threat to get an argument. The questions are:

• If is broken why it didn't been a problem for that LOOOONG time?

Because originally it wasn't broken or not run, but recent patches and synergies caused it to become broken. Mirage is fairly recent, and they have only considered running CI en masse because the other, easier builds have been nerfed down.

• I f is broken why didnt anet detect it before a bunch of whinners came to forums?

See above. It was either originally not broken, and became that way due to recent synergies, or it was broken and mirage mains only started considering it because their other options are now more difficult to use.

• if is broken for ages why didnt find a better way than remove the entire trait?

They specified that they have a better way to fix this trait, but it would require a significant rework of the synergies it touches. They can only do major balance patches intermittently. In the meanwhile, to prevent people from being incredibly toxic with the build, they disabled the trait. It isnt gone permanently.

I can just put a ton of question to say that the problem is not that the trait is broken or not, the problem is that anet just one to ppl shut up on the forums and, actually, give us the feelling that they didn't understand their own game.

The release of Mirage and the reworks to chronomancer that caused all of the visual culling because of the phantasm spam made everyone else feel like Anet didn't understand their own game. Welcome to the party. We've all felt that way for a long time.

So, for you to understand, im not discussing if it is broken or not, we can discuss this in other threat, im saying that devs seems to have no idea (or got some strange plan) about what is happening in the game, and just wait and if there is bunch of people on forums crying like little kids, as a bad father, anet, do whatever is necessary for the kid to shut up.

You are entitled to that opinion. Everyone else feels like that to some extent as well. If your intent is to say "anet doesnt understand the game", I would say you're late to that feeling for some reason. What really matters, though, is whether or not they were justified in doing it.

[draxynnic.3719]

@"Zin Dau.1749" said:The player's job is to find the best build. They didn't design the "degenerate" skills or this situation where stunlock build is top tier. Any designer worth their salt knows that over abundance of griefing skills together is not fun. That's why it's fine for several years, because the former design teams knew to keep it in check. In particular, this build won't work without good control. So particularly baffling is a recent patch when they buffed up an instant cast daze to 50% longer duration.

It was after this new "grand vision of design" ideology sprang up that healthy Mesmer builds were in neverending flux. That the designers left players no choice but to seek alternative builds. Unfortunately for other classes, this build happened to be super effective at griefing and degenerate gameplay.

In a way, when devs try to mess with mesmers, the mesmers get the last laugh.

Mesmers have been in neverending flux pretty much since the game released.

[Engal.6359]

Look I main mesmer CI was truly stupid and deserved to die. People who tell you otherwise are apologists for the poor class design of mirage or were getting carried by CI. I love mesmer, but I think that they just need to kill condi mirage for good, it ruins the game and is boring af to play.

Pls just play power....

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Engal.6359 said:Look I main mesmer CI was truly stupid and deserved to die. People who tell you otherwise are apologists for the poor class design of mirage or were getting carried by CI. I love mesmer, but I think that they just need to kill condi mirage for good, it ruins the game and is boring af to play.

Pls just play power....

why? I personally find 1shot and move on combat trully fucking boring. and to add to it power mirage is a shitty version of other power specs like revenant or thief.

[Engal.6359]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Engal.6359 said:Look I main mesmer CI was truly stupid and deserved to die. People who tell you otherwise are apologists for the poor class design of mirage

or

were getting carried by CI. I love mesmer, but I think that they just need to kill condi mirage for good, it ruins the game and is boring af to play.

Pls just play power....

why? I personally find 1shot and move on combat trully kitten boring. and to add to it power mirage is a kitten version of other power specs like revenant or thief.

I didnt say play a one shot build. Believe it or not, it is possible to play a non-meme, non-cancer version of mesmer.

And if you think power mes is just like rev, you obviously dont understand the class.

I sense a triggered CI player who is mad they can't get carried by busted condi anymore

Edit: spelling

[viquing.8254]

@Engal.6359 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Engal.6359 said:Look I main mesmer CI was truly stupid and deserved to die. People who tell you otherwise are apologists for the poor class design of mirage

or

were getting carried by CI. I love mesmer, but I think that they just need to kill condi mirage for good, it ruins the game and is boring af to play.

Pls just play power....

why? I personally find 1shot and move on combat trully kitten boring. and to add to it power mirage is a kitten version of other power specs like revenant or thief.

I didnt say play a one shot build. Believe it or not, it is possible to play a non-meme, non-cancer version of mesmer.

And if you think power mes is just like rev, you obviously dont understand the class.

I sense a triggered CI player who is mad they can't get carried by busted condi anymore

Edit: spelling

Hmm If I just read the forums :1) tank mesmer is meme noobcarry build.2) condi mesmer is meme noobcarry build.3) burst mesmer is meme noobcarry build.4) lock mesmer is meme noobcarry build.5) utility (portal/veil/alacrity bot) mesmer if fine but was gut (and boring to play btw.).Conclusion : the good mesmer is the mesmer who die in 10 sec when selected.

[Engal.6359]

@viquing.8254 said:

@Engal.6359 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Engal.6359 said:Look I main mesmer CI was truly stupid and deserved to die. People who tell you otherwise are apologists for the poor class design of mirage

or

were getting carried by CI. I love mesmer, but I think that they just need to kill condi mirage for good, it ruins the game and is boring af to play.

Pls just play power....

why? I personally find 1shot and move on combat trully kitten boring. and to add to it power mirage is a kitten version of other power specs like revenant or thief.

I didnt say play a one shot build. Believe it or not, it is possible to play a non-meme, non-cancer version of mesmer.

And if you think power mes is just like rev, you obviously dont understand the class.

I sense a triggered CI player who is mad they can't get carried by busted condi anymore

Edit: spelling

Hmm If I just read the forums :1) tank mesmer is meme noobcarry build.2) condi mesmer is meme noobcarry build.3) burst mesmer is meme noobcarry build.4) lock mesmer is meme noobcarry build.5) utility (portal/veil/alacrity bot) mesmer if fine but was gut (and boring to play btw.).Conclusion : the good mesmer is the mesmer who die in 10 sec when selected.

The forums hate mesmer and have for years. Nothing new.

[kraai.7265]

@judgebeo.3976 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:Could be worse... you could be like Thief, where a New PvP ruleset completely DISABLES a major kitten part of your class.

Hard facts. Imagine not being able to use a mechanic your class is built around for a large portion of its damage mitigation if you want to 2v2. If you dont have HoT expack and run condi daredevil thief, you're screwed.

@judgebeo.3976 said:

IMO anet is acting like a "fireman", just do something when is a bit too late, and something that is just extreme. Remove an entire trait... the funny thing is that trait has been there for ages, i've been using that for ages... no problem...but

suddenly everyone starts to use mantra and CI

, then whinners come to forums and anet decide to remove something that has been there for ages...

Imagine being sick for a good portion of your life and a doctor finds out what your illness is, but you get angry at the doctor for suggesting they cure it because you've had it for so long.

Something being broken for a long time doesn't insulate it against fixing.

you didnt understand nothing or just manipulate part of my threat to get an argument. The questions are:

• If is broken why it didn't been a problem for that LOOOONG time?
• If is broken why didnt anet detect it before a bunch of whinners came to forums?
• if is broken for ages why didnt find a better way than remove the entire trait?
• ....

I can just put a ton of question to say that the problem is not that the trait is broken or not, the problem is that anet just one to ppl shut up on the forums and, actually, give us the feelling that they didn't understand their own game.

So, for you to understand, im not discussing if it is broken or not, we can discuss this in other threat, im saying that devs seems to have no idea (or got some strange plan) about what is happening in the game, and just wait and if there is bunch of people on forums crying like little kids, as a bad father, anet, do whatever is necessary for the kid to shut up.

Easy, they were other more broken builds in the game already, lets not forget that ci mirage was the consequence of every nerf that regular condi mirage recieved, making axe useless, nerfing condi application and several other things, i don't play condi so i won't get into details.

Once they destroyed condi builds, like hybrid horizon, or pu condi mirage, people looked for something else to play, since most of the mesmers hate the power builds. And they discovered it wasn't such a bad idea to switch all the damage into cc.

[BadMed.3846]

@Engal.6359 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@Engal.6359 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Engal.6359 said:Look I main mesmer CI was truly stupid and deserved to die. People who tell you otherwise are apologists for the poor class design of mirage

or

were getting carried by CI. I love mesmer, but I think that they just need to kill condi mirage for good, it ruins the game and is boring af to play.

Pls just play power....

why? I personally find 1shot and move on combat trully kitten boring. and to add to it power mirage is a kitten version of other power specs like revenant or thief.

I didnt say play a one shot build. Believe it or not, it is possible to play a non-meme, non-cancer version of mesmer.

And if you think power mes is just like rev, you obviously dont understand the class.

I sense a triggered CI player who is mad they can't get carried by busted condi anymore

Edit: spelling

Hmm If I just read the forums :1) tank mesmer is meme noobcarry build.2) condi mesmer is meme noobcarry build.3) burst mesmer is meme noobcarry build.4) lock mesmer is meme noobcarry build.5) utility (portal/veil/alacrity bot) mesmer if fine but was gut (and boring to play btw.).Conclusion : the good mesmer is the mesmer who die in 10 sec when selected.

The forums hate mesmer and have for years. Nothing new.

And that surely highlights a problem that Mesmers have had access to game breaking builds for years. A problem that is still unresolved.

[Fueki.4753]

@BadMed.3846 said:And that surely highlights a problem that Mesmers have had access to game breaking builds for years. A problem that is still unresolved.I doubt that will ever be solved.

Whenever I see a Mirage in PvP (the only kind of Mesmer still playing PvP) I try ONCE to see if I have a chance (99% of the time the answer is no) and then I either run or play sitting duck for them. There is no reason to even try to fight them.

Two semi-skilled mirage are sufficient to beat many teams of solo-Queuers.

[viquing.8254]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:And that surely highlights a problem that Mesmers have had access to game breaking builds for years. A problem that is still unresolved.I doubt that will ever be solved.

Whenever I see a Mirage in PvP (the only kind of Mesmer still playing PvP) I try ONCE to see if I have a chance (99% of the time the answer is no) and then I either run or play sitting duck for them. There is no reason to even try to fight them.

Two semi-skilled mirage are sufficient to beat many teams of solo-Queuers.

that' why the 2 first people in ladder are mesmers, ho ! wait ...

@BadMed.3846 said:

@Engal.6359 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@Engal.6359 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Engal.6359 said:Look I main mesmer CI was truly stupid and deserved to die. People who tell you otherwise are apologists for the poor class design of mirage

or

were getting carried by CI. I love mesmer, but I think that they just need to kill condi mirage for good, it ruins the game and is boring af to play.

Pls just play power....

why? I personally find 1shot and move on combat trully kitten boring. and to add to it power mirage is a kitten version of other power specs like revenant or thief.

I didnt say play a one shot build. Believe it or not, it is possible to play a non-meme, non-cancer version of mesmer.

And if you think power mes is just like rev, you obviously dont understand the class.

I sense a triggered CI player who is mad they can't get carried by busted condi anymore

Edit: spelling

Hmm If I just read the forums :1) tank mesmer is meme noobcarry build.2) condi mesmer is meme noobcarry build.3) burst mesmer is meme noobcarry build.4) lock mesmer is meme noobcarry build.5) utility (portal/veil/alacrity bot) mesmer if fine but was gut (and boring to play btw.).Conclusion : the good mesmer is the mesmer who die in 10 sec when selected.

The forums hate mesmer and have for years. Nothing new.

And that surely highlights a problem that Mesmers have had access to game breaking builds for years. A problem that is still unresolved.

It only highligh that forums are full of casual who want to win duel with their gard/necro/elem/war/rev who are way better in teamfight since day 1 and they don't understand that a class who is only good at single target should always win the 1v1 versus them.But you know they want to feel strong by rollfacing everything.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@viquing.8254 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:And that surely highlights a problem that Mesmers have had access to game breaking builds for years. A problem that is still unresolved.I doubt that will ever be solved.

Whenever I see a Mirage in PvP (the only kind of Mesmer still playing PvP) I try ONCE to see if I have a chance (99% of the time the answer is no) and then I either run or play sitting duck for them. There is no reason to even try to fight them.

Two semi-skilled mirage are sufficient to beat many teams of solo-Queuers.

that' why the 2 first people in ladder are mesmers, ho ! wait ...

@BadMed.3846 said:

@Engal.6359 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@Engal.6359 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Engal.6359 said:Look I main mesmer CI was truly stupid and deserved to die. People who tell you otherwise are apologists for the poor class design of mirage

or

were getting carried by CI. I love mesmer, but I think that they just need to kill condi mirage for good, it ruins the game and is boring af to play.

Pls just play power....

why? I personally find 1shot and move on combat trully kitten boring. and to add to it power mirage is a kitten version of other power specs like revenant or thief.

I didnt say play a one shot build. Believe it or not, it is possible to play a non-meme, non-cancer version of mesmer.

And if you think power mes is just like rev, you obviously dont understand the class.

I sense a triggered CI player who is mad they can't get carried by busted condi anymore

Edit: spelling

Hmm If I just read the forums :1) tank mesmer is meme noobcarry build.2) condi mesmer is meme noobcarry build.3) burst mesmer is meme noobcarry build.4) lock mesmer is meme noobcarry build.5) utility (portal/veil/alacrity bot) mesmer if fine but was gut (and boring to play btw.).Conclusion : the good mesmer is the mesmer who die in 10 sec when selected.

The forums hate mesmer and have for years. Nothing new.

And that surely highlights a problem that Mesmers have had access to game breaking builds for years. A problem that is still unresolved.

It only highligh that forums are full of casual who want to win duel with their gard/necro/elem/war/rev who are way better in teamfight since day 1 and they don't understand that a class who is only good at single target should always win the 1v1 versus them.But you know they want to feel

strong

by rollfacing everything.

best thing is that warrior or holo are not even bad against power/condi mirage, all you have to do is put some practice and then you have preety much 50/50 skill matchup or even easy win if you play spellbreaker against power mirage.

[Fueki.4753]

@viquing.8254 said:that' why the 2 first people in ladder are mesmers, ho ! wait ...

Are you sure they didn't just use Duo-Queue to get easier Matchups?

[kraai.7265]

@viquing.8254 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:And that surely highlights a problem that Mesmers have had access to game breaking builds for years. A problem that is still unresolved.I doubt that will ever be solved.

Whenever I see a Mirage in PvP (the only kind of Mesmer still playing PvP) I try ONCE to see if I have a chance (99% of the time the answer is no) and then I either run or play sitting duck for them. There is no reason to even try to fight them.

Two semi-skilled mirage are sufficient to beat many teams of solo-Queuers.

that' why the 2 first people in ladder are mesmers, ho ! wait ...

@BadMed.3846 said:

@Engal.6359 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@Engal.6359 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Engal.6359 said:Look I main mesmer CI was truly stupid and deserved to die. People who tell you otherwise are apologists for the poor class design of mirage

or

were getting carried by CI. I love mesmer, but I think that they just need to kill condi mirage for good, it ruins the game and is boring af to play.

Pls just play power....

why? I personally find 1shot and move on combat trully kitten boring. and to add to it power mirage is a kitten version of other power specs like revenant or thief.

I didnt say play a one shot build. Believe it or not, it is possible to play a non-meme, non-cancer version of mesmer.

And if you think power mes is just like rev, you obviously dont understand the class.

I sense a triggered CI player who is mad they can't get carried by busted condi anymore

Edit: spelling

Hmm If I just read the forums :1) tank mesmer is meme noobcarry build.2) condi mesmer is meme noobcarry build.3) burst mesmer is meme noobcarry build.4) lock mesmer is meme noobcarry build.5) utility (portal/veil/alacrity bot) mesmer if fine but was gut (and boring to play btw.).Conclusion : the good mesmer is the mesmer who die in 10 sec when selected.

The forums hate mesmer and have for years. Nothing new.

And that surely highlights a problem that Mesmers have had access to game breaking builds for years. A problem that is still unresolved.

It only highligh that forums are full of casual who want to win duel with their gard/necro/elem/war/rev who are way better in teamfight since day 1 and they don't understand that a class who is only good at single target should always win the 1v1 versus them.But you know they want to feel

strong

by rollfacing everything.

SO FREAKING TRUE!!! They blame devs and other players because they refuse to learn how to play, or understand that each class has a ROLE, like in mmorpg (massive multiplayer ROLE playing game)

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@viquing.8254 said:It only highligh that forums are full of casual who want to win duel with their gard/necro/elem/war/rev who are way better in teamfight since day 1 and they don't understand that a class who is only good at single target should always win the 1v1 versus them.But you know they want to feel strong by rollfacing everything.

@kraai.7265 said:SO FREAKING TRUE!!! They blame devs and other players because they refuse to learn how to play, or understand that each class has a ROLE, like in mmorpg (massive multiplayer ROLE playing game)

Mesmer's role is to beat, by nature of their class or their mechanical advantage, 5 of the 9 classes in game/ any class that they happen to find alone?Mesmers aren't also good in team fights?

I'm not arguing that they need more nerfs at this time but these arguments are paper thin and reek of entitlement. Telling anyone it's their role to lose any matchup because of the nature of their -class- and not because of their build or their build's capabilities is asking for trouble.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@viquing.8254 said:It only highligh that forums are full of casual who want to win duel with their

gard/necro/elem/war/rev

who are way better in teamfight since day 1 and they don't understand that a class who is only good at single target should always win the 1v1 versus them.But you know they want to feel

strong

by rollfacing everything.

@"kraai.7265" said:SO FREAKING TRUE!!! They blame devs and other players because they refuse to learn how to play, or understand that each class has a ROLE, like in mmorpg (massive multiplayer ROLE playing game)

Mesmer's role is to beat, by nature of their class or their mechanical advantage, 5 of the 9 classes in game/ any class that they happen to find alone?Mesmers aren't also good in team fights?

I'm not arguing that they need more nerfs at this time but these arguments are paper thin and reek of entitlement. Telling anyone it's their role to lose any matchup because of the nature of their -class- and not because of their build or their build's capabilities is asking for trouble.

not auto lose, get unfavoured, same as mesmer isnt useless ( unless condi ) in teamfights, just weaker.you have better odds of winning 1v1, you have worse odds of winning 3v3,4v4 you name it.and yes mesmer is shit in teamfights, even stupid thing like retaliation can make you have to leave, land 4man GS ambush and boom you lose 3k hp, land berserker, boom another 3k.Oh and btw most of those " lose to mesmer " classes have actually good matchups into them if they focus on what they are doing instead of playing on autopilot.

[viquing.8254]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:I'm not arguing that they need more nerfs at this time but these arguments are paper thin and reek of entitlement. Telling anyone it's their role to lose any matchup because of the nature of their -class- and not because of their build or their build's capabilities is asking for trouble.

Where is the high AOE pressure damage mesmer build ? Are we talking about the massive damage of well of calamity ?Mesmer teamfight resume to land 1 or 2 utility then move away. Real teamfight builds are full of AOE effects should it be damage, boon, heal or whatever.Take it as paper if you want :During classic, in PvP mesmer wasn't meta at all because hard countered by thief. In WvW it was just used to portal/veil and roam.During HoT mesmer teamfight use was around portal and moa. (2 skills with > 60 cd.). In WvW it was just used to portal/veil/boonshare and roam.During PoF mesmer teamfight use was around sometimes gravity well, sometimes 5 staff cover. In WvW is was just use to portal/veil/booshare and roam.

So now compare to real teamfight class => basically go in WvW, see who is in zerg.During my first 4 years of full WvW player, I probably get as much bags as a 4 months GWEN class.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@viquing.8254 said:

@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:I'm not arguing that they need more nerfs at this time but these arguments are paper thin and reek of entitlement. Telling anyone it's their role to lose any matchup because of the nature of their -class- and not because of their build or their build's capabilities is asking for trouble.

Where is the high AOE pressure damage mesmer build ?

Are we talking about the

massive

damage of well of calamity ?Mesmer teamfight resume to land 1 or 2 utility then move away.

Real teamfight builds are full of AOE effects should it be damage, boon, heal or whatever.

The "high damage AOE pressure mesmer build" you are asking me to present is not what I asserted existed. Also, I am not arguing what constitutes a "real teamfight build."

My assertion was that Mesmers were good in team fights. utility is considered when addressing mesmer's viability/usefulness in team fights. Direct damage does not entirely comprise how good you are in team fights. Being hard to kill or extremely debilitating to nearby enemies are also facets that make a class good or bad in a team fight. That's why we had people upset about Poison thief and Scrapper recently.

I'd also like to note that I am talking specifically of its interactions in the PVP sphere. I am aware WvW is a mess and that some things scale very differently there, so I would like to not substitute WvW interactions for PVP/Conquest ones. our gear and comps are limited and that behavior doesnt match up with WvW utility.I noticed this is now in the Mesmer forums. I think originally when I posted in it, it was in the PVP forums specifically and got moved here, but whether or not that is the case apologies for not specifying the above outright.

In PVP Conquest, we have had multiple instances of mesmer builds surface that excelled at dueling as well as supporting point fights from the outer edge. Chronobunker, Condi Axe, Condi scepter, CI/condi Staff and the other specs that have lead to steamrolling in pvp matchups were all reasonably useful in xvx matchups or outnumbers.

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:not auto lose, get unfavoured, same as mesmer isnt useless ( unless condi ) in teamfights, just weaker.

I agree with this, -including the condition part.-

you have better odds of winning 1v1, you have worse odds of winning 3v3,4v4 you name it.

I also agree with this.

and yes mesmer is kitten in teamfights, even stupid thing like retaliation can make you have to leave, land 4man GS ambush and boom you lose 3k hp, land berserker, boom another 3k.

You're contradicting your own point, but I agree retaliation is a weakening force to mesmers in a group fight. You can strip on shatter though, so keep in mind that Retaliation isnt a hard counter to your GS ambush.

Oh and btw most of those " lose to mesmer " classes have actually good matchups into them if they focus on what they are doing instead of playing on autopilot.

I also agree with this, although I wouldn't call it "focusing on what they are doing." It usually required, up to this point, speccing in such a way that you were prepared for only Mesmer and nothing else. No one class should be able to shape the meta around itself to that extent.

My focus is not on any of these statements though.

My focus is on the fact that mesmers -have- had some pretty busted builds over the last few expansions(In PVP conquest), and the fact that nerfs are catching up to them are not the result of "casuals wanting to win duels." If you have been boosted for so long that you are willing to take that your class should automatically win 1v1s as fact, then something's wrong. Especially if that same class can also perform reasonably in xvx, just without the same overwhelming curb stomp.

EDIT: [Displaced Charr]. Thought this was in the pvp forums and thus that it was assumed we were only talking about conquest.