Why you guys hate CI and MOD? Because you do not try to cancel your skills or cast it one by one!

[UNOwen.7132]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:I'm inclined to agree with @bravan.3876 on this.

MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:I'm inclined to agree with @bravan.3876 on this.

MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either.

Sips teaBut if a class is "less good at running away", Then most likely they're slower than the class that is better at running away. Mesmers have no mobility outside of blink/jaunt, Illusion leap and portal. They cant get from point A to B very quickly, and if a class is running away, they need to rely on blink/leap to chase, which have reasonably sized cooldowns. The fact of the matter is that objectively, they are slower than thieves, so it seems reasonable to me that there be slightly more leniency on the situations in which they can use their daze.

Thieves can also stop warriors disengaging with rush, by the way, and most of their weapon sets allow them to move a substantial distance in a given direction repeatedly, so they have an easier time keeping up with a warrior (or any other high moba class) that decides that it wants to leave.I'm digressing though. My point is that MoD has a similar function to headshot, and fills the same purpose, but because the class it is being used on is slower than the class that has headshot, it has a bit more leniency on range and cast time. That on its own, is fine. What is not fine is it being able to set off a chain reaction that leads to a high-uptime snare, just like Pulmonary Impact was not fine in its high damage state when used on thieves that would interrupt their way to a kill.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@bravan.3876 said:The daze will not kill you because you still can dodge all dmg skills will be used together or after it. I never got killed by Mesmer only spamming Mantra and hit autoattacks or even luckily hit a big skill accidently with it. Only well timed interrupts (like getting my heal when i am low already, a Mesmer surviving by interrupting my Chilled to the bones) can make a Powermes using Mantra and only Powerblock win a fight. Most Mesmer i met barely get interrupt vs me with their Mantra (mostly on autoattacks what does nothing wihtout CI). You sound like you never played a Powerblock Powermes with Mantra yourself and that vs ppl are not bronze lvl freekills anyway tbh. You sounds like a totally predictable player complaining about something he has no clue how to play against. What you say about stowing is inefficient and nothing i listed is a counter is just ridiculous.

It will, because you wont be able to. Youre immobilized, remember? Its basically a DIY stun. Except better since you need a stunbreak that also cleanses condis or removes immobilizing effects. And yes, were talking about Mesmers who time it to interrupt. Theyre the ones that are a problem after all. And no, I have. I know how broken it is from first-hand experience. Its as if I was playing D/P with higher damage, far lower execution barrier and skill required, and far more resilient. And no, it has nothing to do with predictabiltiy. See, being predictable only matters when there is a way to stop the interrupts. Like say, with Headshot. There is no way to stop the interrupts vs Mesmer. Either you use no skills, in which case they kill you for free, or you do, they instantly interrupt it with no counterplay, DIY stun you, and kill you.

Bravan is right. If you keep the immob out of the equation (keep in mind that immob comes from CI, which is now disabled and will probably not return in its past state), MoD does nothing but instant cast daze you, which is only dangerous when you are healing while low and only useful for preventing bursts outside of that. You keep implying that MoD has the immob part baked in. It doesnt.

I may dislike Mesmer because of how annoying it has the potential to be among other things, but there's no need to touch MoD if it can't instantly snare you anymore.And, for the record, I am not advocating nerfing thieves OR warriors. Both of those classes as they stand now are not unbalanced as far as I know. I just think pushing to shave MoD, on its own, unaffected by traits, is silly.

[bravan.3876]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@bravan.3876 said:The daze will not kill you because you still can dodge all dmg skills will be used together or after it. I never got killed by Mesmer only spamming Mantra and hit autoattacks or even luckily hit a big skill accidently with it. Only well timed interrupts (like getting my heal when i am low already, a Mesmer surviving by interrupting my Chilled to the bones) can make a Powermes using Mantra and only Powerblock win a fight. Most Mesmer i met barely get interrupt vs me with their Mantra (mostly on autoattacks what does nothing wihtout CI). You sound like you never played a Powerblock Powermes with Mantra yourself and that vs ppl are not bronze lvl freekills anyway tbh. You sounds like a totally predictable player complaining about something he has no clue how to play against. What you say about stowing is inefficient and nothing i listed is a counter is just ridiculous.

It will, because you wont be able to. Youre immobilized, remember? Its basically a DIY stun. Except better since you need a stunbreak that also cleanses condis or removes immobilizing effects. And yes, were talking about Mesmers who time it to interrupt. Theyre the ones that are a problem after all. And no, I have. I know how broken it is from first-hand experience. Its as if I was playing D/P with higher damage, far lower execution barrier and skill required, and far more resilient. And no, it has nothing to do with predictabiltiy. See, being predictable only matters when there is a way to stop the interrupts. Like say, with Headshot. There is no way to stop the interrupts vs Mesmer. Either you use no skills, in which case they kill you for free, or you do, they instantly interrupt it with no counterplay, DIY stun you, and kill you.

Bravan is right. If you keep the immob out of the equation (keep in mind that immob comes from CI, which is now disabled and will probably not return in its past state), MoD does nothing but instant cast daze you, which is only dangerous when you are healing while low and only useful for preventing bursts outside of that. You keep implying that MoD has the immob part baked in. It doesnt.

I may dislike Mesmer because of how annoying it has the potential to be among other things, but there's no need to touch MoD if it can't instantly snare you anymore.And, for the record, I am not advocating nerfing thieves OR warriors. Both of those classes as they stand now are not unbalanced as far as I know. I just think pushing to shave MoD, on its own, unaffected by traits, is silly.

Thank you for put that right, i start to get super annoyed by ppl mixing things up, everyone can clearly see that he has no clue what he is talking about and i would have a hard time to stay polite to him at this point. Bronze lvl propaganda at its finest. He never touched Mesmer at all not even the lamest build it has i would bet.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:I'm inclined to agree with @"bravan.3876" on this.

MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either.

Sips tea

But if a class is "less good at running away", Then most likely they're slower than the class that is better at running away. Mesmers have no mobility outside of blink/jaunt, Illusion leap and portal. They cant get from point A to B very quickly, and if a class is running away, they need to rely on blink/leap to chase. The fact of the matter is that objectively, they are slower than thieves, so it seems reasonable to me that there be slightly more leniency on the situations in which they can use their daze.

Thieves can also stop warriors disengaging with rush, by the way, and most of their weapon sets allow them to move a substantial distance in a given direction repeatedly.I'm digressing though. My point is that MoD has a similar function to headshot, and fills the same purpose, but because the class it is being used on is slower than the class that has headshot, it has a bit more leniency on range and cast time. That on its own, is fine. What is not fine is it being able to set off a chain reaction that leads to a high-uptime snare, just like Pulmonary Impact was not fine in its high damage state when used on thieves that would interrupt their way to a kill.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"bravan.3876" said:The daze will not kill you because you still can dodge all dmg skills will be used together or after it. I never got killed by Mesmer only spamming Mantra and hit autoattacks or even luckily hit a big skill accidently with it. Only well timed interrupts (like getting my heal when i am low already, a Mesmer surviving by interrupting my Chilled to the bones) can make a Powermes using Mantra and only Powerblock win a fight. Most Mesmer i met barely get interrupt vs me with their Mantra (mostly on autoattacks what does nothing wihtout CI). You sound like you never played a Powerblock Powermes with Mantra yourself and that vs ppl are not bronze lvl freekills anyway tbh. You sounds like a totally predictable player complaining about something he has no clue how to play against. What you say about stowing is inefficient and nothing i listed is a counter is just ridiculous.

It will, because you wont be able to. Youre immobilized, remember? Its basically a DIY stun. Except better since you need a stunbreak that also cleanses condis or removes immobilizing effects. And yes, were talking about Mesmers who time it to interrupt. Theyre the ones that are a problem after all. And no, I have. I know how broken it is from first-hand experience. Its as if I was playing D/P with higher damage, far lower execution barrier and skill required, and far more resilient. And no, it has nothing to do with predictabiltiy. See, being predictable only matters when there is a way to stop the interrupts. Like say, with Headshot. There is no way to stop the interrupts vs Mesmer. Either you use no skills, in which case they kill you for free, or you do, they instantly interrupt it with no counterplay, DIY stun you, and kill you.

Bravan is right. If you keep the immob out of the equation (keep in mind that immob comes from CI, which is now disabled and will probably not return in its past state), MoD does nothing but instant cast daze you, which is only dangerous when you are healing while low and only useful for preventing bursts outside of that. You keep implying that MoD has the immob part baked in. It doesnt.

I may dislike Mesmer because of how annoying it has the potential to be among other things, but there's no need to touch MoD if it can't instantly snare you anymore.

Eh, not quite. Thief is good at running away because you can simply stealth up, move away from the enemy while theyre not sure where you are, and depending on the gamemode either go for a decap, or mount up and just run away. Mesmers options for long-term stealth are more limited. Theyre good at oneshotting out of stealth. Not so good at running away thanks to stealth. Now, as for your examples, saying that "Mesmer have no mobility outside of the best long-distance teleportation spell, essentially thieves shadowstep on a much shorter cooldown, a lesser thieves shadowstep on a lower cooldown, and a skill that lets them transform dodges into fast long-range dashes". Is like saying "Scourge has no boon transformation outside the 3 skills they have that transform boons". And you forgot to mention that Mirage effectively gets Superspeed while in Mirage Cloak. And I guess the sword ambush attack. So no, objectively they arent slower.

In fact, I would argue theyre generally faster. The big advantage thief has, and the reason theyre still better decap bots is the nature of their movement. Thieves primarily move around the map with shortbow 5. Being a blink, this means thieves handle elevation much better. Mesmer only has Blink for moving up large distances, as Jaunt is too short, and the sword ambush skill is just vertical movement. Thieves are better at horizontal movement, and for sPvP decap purposes thats better. For the purposes of catching up with people? It isnt. Its actually worse. Unless they are a thief, because noone else handles elevation well either, at which point it doesnt matter either way. Thief is good at not fighting after all.

They cannot. Something youd know if you played Warrior in WvW for 10 minutes. Its honestly sad to see the poor thieves just struggle to keep up only to fail anyway in the end. And no, the only weaponset that does is shortbow 5. The rest of the weapons are actually terrible at moving distances, Sword can no longer do the fake backport so its out, Rifles teleport is just bad, and if youre already out of range all D/P has is Heartseeker, which is honestly just a sad skill nowadays.

So, now that we have established that the class its being used on is in fact faster, not slower, does that change your mindset? How about the fact that Mesmer also has vastly superior defensive and offensive capabilities? Youd imagine that the class that is great at fighting either way would at least be worse at stopping the enemy from hitting their big hits than the class thats pretty bad at it. But no, because thats how it goes apparently.

[UNOwen.7132]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:I'm inclined to agree with @bravan.3876 on this.

MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either.

Sips tea

But if a class is "less good at running away", Then most likely they're slower than the class that is better at running away. Mesmers have no mobility outside of blink/jaunt, Illusion leap and portal. They cant get from point A to B very quickly, and if a class is running away, they need to rely on blink/leap to chase, which have reasonably sized cooldowns. The fact of the matter is that objectively, they are slower than thieves, so it seems reasonable to me that there be slightly more leniency on the situations in which they can use their daze.

Thieves can also stop warriors disengaging with rush, by the way, and most of their weapon sets allow them to move a substantial distance in a given direction repeatedly.I'm digressing though. My point is that MoD has a similar function to headshot, and fills the same purpose, but because the class it is being used on is slower than the class that has headshot, it has a bit more leniency on range and cast time. That on its own, is fine. What is not fine is it being able to set off a chain reaction that leads to a high-uptime snare, just like Pulmonary Impact was not fine in its high damage state when used on thieves that would interrupt their way to a kill.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@bravan.3876 said:The daze will not kill you because you still can dodge all dmg skills will be used together or after it. I never got killed by Mesmer only spamming Mantra and hit autoattacks or even luckily hit a big skill accidently with it. Only well timed interrupts (like getting my heal when i am low already, a Mesmer surviving by interrupting my Chilled to the bones) can make a Powermes using Mantra and only Powerblock win a fight. Most Mesmer i met barely get interrupt vs me with their Mantra (mostly on autoattacks what does nothing wihtout CI). You sound like you never played a Powerblock Powermes with Mantra yourself and that vs ppl are not bronze lvl freekills anyway tbh. You sounds like a totally predictable player complaining about something he has no clue how to play against. What you say about stowing is inefficient and nothing i listed is a counter is just ridiculous.

It will, because you wont be able to. Youre immobilized, remember? Its basically a DIY stun. Except better since you need a stunbreak that also cleanses condis or removes immobilizing effects. And yes, were talking about Mesmers who time it to interrupt. Theyre the ones that are a problem after all. And no, I have. I know how broken it is from first-hand experience. Its as if I was playing D/P with higher damage, far lower execution barrier and skill required, and far more resilient. And no, it has nothing to do with predictabiltiy. See, being predictable only matters when there is a way to stop the interrupts. Like say, with Headshot. There is no way to stop the interrupts vs Mesmer. Either you use no skills, in which case they kill you for free, or you do, they instantly interrupt it with no counterplay, DIY stun you, and kill you.

Bravan is right. If you keep the immob out of the equation (keep in mind that immob comes from CI, which is now disabled and will probably not return in its past state), MoD does nothing but instant cast daze you, which is only dangerous when you are healing while low and only useful for preventing bursts outside of that. You keep implying that MoD has the immob part baked in. It doesnt.

I may dislike Mesmer because of how annoying it has the potential to be among other things, but there's no need to touch MoD if it can't instantly snare you anymore.And, for the record, I am not advocating nerfing thieves OR warriors. Both of those classes as they stand now are not unbalanced as far as I know. I just think pushing to shave MoD, on its own, unaffected by traits, is silly.

Thank you for put that right, i start to get super annoyed by ppl mixing things up, everyone can clearly see that he has no clue what he is talking about and i would have a hard time to stay polite to him at this point. Bronze lvl propaganda at its finest. He never touched Mesmer at all not even the lamest build it has i would bet.

Yknow, the fact that you resort to ad hominems every time someone dismantles your poor arguments makes it kinda clear you arent neutral at all. I even call doubt on your claim that you dont main mesmer. In fact, I think not only do you main Mirage, you dont know how to play anything else, hence why youre so adamant about keeping things as they are.

[bravan.3876]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:I'm inclined to agree with @bravan.3876 on this.

MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either.

Sips tea

But if a class is "less good at running away", Then most likely they're slower than the class that is better at running away. Mesmers have no mobility outside of blink/jaunt, Illusion leap and portal. They cant get from point A to B very quickly, and if a class is running away, they need to rely on blink/leap to chase, which have reasonably sized cooldowns. The fact of the matter is that objectively, they are slower than thieves, so it seems reasonable to me that there be slightly more leniency on the situations in which they can use their daze.

Thieves can also stop warriors disengaging with rush, by the way, and most of their weapon sets allow them to move a substantial distance in a given direction repeatedly.I'm digressing though. My point is that MoD has a similar function to headshot, and fills the same purpose, but because the class it is being used on is slower than the class that has headshot, it has a bit more leniency on range and cast time. That on its own, is fine. What is not fine is it being able to set off a chain reaction that leads to a high-uptime snare, just like Pulmonary Impact was not fine in its high damage state when used on thieves that would interrupt their way to a kill.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@bravan.3876 said:The daze will not kill you because you still can dodge all dmg skills will be used together or after it. I never got killed by Mesmer only spamming Mantra and hit autoattacks or even luckily hit a big skill accidently with it. Only well timed interrupts (like getting my heal when i am low already, a Mesmer surviving by interrupting my Chilled to the bones) can make a Powermes using Mantra and only Powerblock win a fight. Most Mesmer i met barely get interrupt vs me with their Mantra (mostly on autoattacks what does nothing wihtout CI). You sound like you never played a Powerblock Powermes with Mantra yourself and that vs ppl are not bronze lvl freekills anyway tbh. You sounds like a totally predictable player complaining about something he has no clue how to play against. What you say about stowing is inefficient and nothing i listed is a counter is just ridiculous.

It will, because you wont be able to. Youre immobilized, remember? Its basically a DIY stun. Except better since you need a stunbreak that also cleanses condis or removes immobilizing effects. And yes, were talking about Mesmers who time it to interrupt. Theyre the ones that are a problem after all. And no, I have. I know how broken it is from first-hand experience. Its as if I was playing D/P with higher damage, far lower execution barrier and skill required, and far more resilient. And no, it has nothing to do with predictabiltiy. See, being predictable only matters when there is a way to stop the interrupts. Like say, with Headshot. There is no way to stop the interrupts vs Mesmer. Either you use no skills, in which case they kill you for free, or you do, they instantly interrupt it with no counterplay, DIY stun you, and kill you.

Bravan is right. If you keep the immob out of the equation (keep in mind that immob comes from CI, which is now disabled and will probably not return in its past state), MoD does nothing but instant cast daze you, which is only dangerous when you are healing while low and only useful for preventing bursts outside of that. You keep implying that MoD has the immob part baked in. It doesnt.

I may dislike Mesmer because of how annoying it has the potential to be among other things, but there's no need to touch MoD if it can't instantly snare you anymore.And, for the record, I am not advocating nerfing thieves OR warriors. Both of those classes as they stand now are not unbalanced as far as I know. I just think pushing to shave MoD, on its own, unaffected by traits, is silly.

Thank you for put that right, i start to get super annoyed by ppl mixing things up, everyone can clearly see that he has no clue what he is talking about and i would have a hard time to stay polite to him at this point. Bronze lvl propaganda at its finest. He never touched Mesmer at all not even the lamest build it has i would bet.

Yknow, the fact that you resort to ad hominems every time someone dismantles your poor arguments makes it kinda clear you arent neutral at all. I even call doubt on your claim that you dont main mesmer. In fact, I think not only do you main Mirage, you dont know how to play anything else, hence why youre so adamant about keeping things as they are.

You don't need to main Mesmer to know that Mantra of Distraction has no immob and how to counter Mantra and how effective stowing is not only to avoid interrupts. If you feel better when you accuse me of lying than do it. It got clear who has no clue what he is talking about and i showed in several other posts that i have clue about other classes too. It is the forums overdoing hate and exaggerating creating a thread with mesmer complains every 3 days forcing me an all other ppl here to talk about Mesmer all day long. I was one of the the first ones calling for nerfs to CI and Condimes in general btw check my comment history.Case closed, you disgraced yourself by showing your cluelessness not me and i am out before i say something i have to feel sry for later.

[UNOwen.7132]

@bravan.3876 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:I'm inclined to agree with @bravan.3876 on this.

MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either.

Sips tea

But if a class is "less good at running away", Then most likely they're slower than the class that is better at running away. Mesmers have no mobility outside of blink/jaunt, Illusion leap and portal. They cant get from point A to B very quickly, and if a class is running away, they need to rely on blink/leap to chase, which have reasonably sized cooldowns. The fact of the matter is that objectively, they are slower than thieves, so it seems reasonable to me that there be slightly more leniency on the situations in which they can use their daze.

Thieves can also stop warriors disengaging with rush, by the way, and most of their weapon sets allow them to move a substantial distance in a given direction repeatedly.I'm digressing though. My point is that MoD has a similar function to headshot, and fills the same purpose, but because the class it is being used on is slower than the class that has headshot, it has a bit more leniency on range and cast time. That on its own, is fine. What is not fine is it being able to set off a chain reaction that leads to a high-uptime snare, just like Pulmonary Impact was not fine in its high damage state when used on thieves that would interrupt their way to a kill.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@bravan.3876 said:The daze will not kill you because you still can dodge all dmg skills will be used together or after it. I never got killed by Mesmer only spamming Mantra and hit autoattacks or even luckily hit a big skill accidently with it. Only well timed interrupts (like getting my heal when i am low already, a Mesmer surviving by interrupting my Chilled to the bones) can make a Powermes using Mantra and only Powerblock win a fight. Most Mesmer i met barely get interrupt vs me with their Mantra (mostly on autoattacks what does nothing wihtout CI). You sound like you never played a Powerblock Powermes with Mantra yourself and that vs ppl are not bronze lvl freekills anyway tbh. You sounds like a totally predictable player complaining about something he has no clue how to play against. What you say about stowing is inefficient and nothing i listed is a counter is just ridiculous.

It will, because you wont be able to. Youre immobilized, remember? Its basically a DIY stun. Except better since you need a stunbreak that also cleanses condis or removes immobilizing effects. And yes, were talking about Mesmers who time it to interrupt. Theyre the ones that are a problem after all. And no, I have. I know how broken it is from first-hand experience. Its as if I was playing D/P with higher damage, far lower execution barrier and skill required, and far more resilient. And no, it has nothing to do with predictabiltiy. See, being predictable only matters when there is a way to stop the interrupts. Like say, with Headshot. There is no way to stop the interrupts vs Mesmer. Either you use no skills, in which case they kill you for free, or you do, they instantly interrupt it with no counterplay, DIY stun you, and kill you.

Bravan is right. If you keep the immob out of the equation (keep in mind that immob comes from CI, which is now disabled and will probably not return in its past state), MoD does nothing but instant cast daze you, which is only dangerous when you are healing while low and only useful for preventing bursts outside of that. You keep implying that MoD has the immob part baked in. It doesnt.

I may dislike Mesmer because of how annoying it has the potential to be among other things, but there's no need to touch MoD if it can't instantly snare you anymore.And, for the record, I am not advocating nerfing thieves OR warriors. Both of those classes as they stand now are not unbalanced as far as I know. I just think pushing to shave MoD, on its own, unaffected by traits, is silly.

Thank you for put that right, i start to get super annoyed by ppl mixing things up, everyone can clearly see that he has no clue what he is talking about and i would have a hard time to stay polite to him at this point. Bronze lvl propaganda at its finest. He never touched Mesmer at all not even the lamest build it has i would bet.

Yknow, the fact that you resort to ad hominems every time someone dismantles your poor arguments makes it kinda clear you arent neutral at all. I even call doubt on your claim that you dont main mesmer. In fact, I think not only do you main Mirage, you dont know how to play anything else, hence why youre so adamant about keeping things as they are.

You don't need to main Mesmer to know that Mantra of Distraction has no immob and how to counter Mantra and how effective stowing is not only to avoid interrupts. If you feel better when you accuse me of lying than do it. It got clear who has no clue what he is talking about and i showed in several other posts that i have clue about other classes too. It is the forums overdoing hate and exaggerating creating a thread with mesmer complains every 3 days forcing me an all other ppl here to talk about Mesmer all day long.Case closed, you disgraced yourself by showing your cluelessness not me and i am out before i say something i have to feel sry for later.

Given that literally everyone used CI until it got disabled for being so problematic? It basically did. You also repeatedly claimed "Oh you can counter Mantra" and "Oh you can totally avoid instant interrupts", even after I pointed out, repeatedly, that no, you cannot, and no, you CANNOT. The fact that you still argue that you can totally stow cancel to dodge an instant interrupt just makes it clear how little clue you have about anything other than playing Mesmer yourself. But go on, find a good Mesmer, and try stowcancelling to stop interrupts against them. I will make a prediction I can guarantee with 100% certainty. Short of the Mesmer screwing up or lagging, you will manage to avoid 0/100 interrupts. Because thats how likely it is to be able to avoid it. 0%. The second that Mesmer presses the button, youre interrupted. And he will only press the button while youre using a skill. There is no opportunity to stop the interrupt.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:I'm inclined to agree with @"bravan.3876" on this.

MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either." Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time " <----- what ?

usually 1 dash/blink and swiftness is enaught to run away from mesmer, so preety much every class can do that right now.

[bravan.3876]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:I'm inclined to agree with @bravan.3876 on this.

MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either.

Sips tea

But if a class is "less good at running away", Then most likely they're slower than the class that is better at running away. Mesmers have no mobility outside of blink/jaunt, Illusion leap and portal. They cant get from point A to B very quickly, and if a class is running away, they need to rely on blink/leap to chase, which have reasonably sized cooldowns. The fact of the matter is that objectively, they are slower than thieves, so it seems reasonable to me that there be slightly more leniency on the situations in which they can use their daze.

Thieves can also stop warriors disengaging with rush, by the way, and most of their weapon sets allow them to move a substantial distance in a given direction repeatedly.I'm digressing though. My point is that MoD has a similar function to headshot, and fills the same purpose, but because the class it is being used on is slower than the class that has headshot, it has a bit more leniency on range and cast time. That on its own, is fine. What is not fine is it being able to set off a chain reaction that leads to a high-uptime snare, just like Pulmonary Impact was not fine in its high damage state when used on thieves that would interrupt their way to a kill.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@bravan.3876 said:The daze will not kill you because you still can dodge all dmg skills will be used together or after it. I never got killed by Mesmer only spamming Mantra and hit autoattacks or even luckily hit a big skill accidently with it. Only well timed interrupts (like getting my heal when i am low already, a Mesmer surviving by interrupting my Chilled to the bones) can make a Powermes using Mantra and only Powerblock win a fight. Most Mesmer i met barely get interrupt vs me with their Mantra (mostly on autoattacks what does nothing wihtout CI). You sound like you never played a Powerblock Powermes with Mantra yourself and that vs ppl are not bronze lvl freekills anyway tbh. You sounds like a totally predictable player complaining about something he has no clue how to play against. What you say about stowing is inefficient and nothing i listed is a counter is just ridiculous.

It will, because you wont be able to. Youre immobilized, remember? Its basically a DIY stun. Except better since you need a stunbreak that also cleanses condis or removes immobilizing effects. And yes, were talking about Mesmers who time it to interrupt. Theyre the ones that are a problem after all. And no, I have. I know how broken it is from first-hand experience. Its as if I was playing D/P with higher damage, far lower execution barrier and skill required, and far more resilient. And no, it has nothing to do with predictabiltiy. See, being predictable only matters when there is a way to stop the interrupts. Like say, with Headshot. There is no way to stop the interrupts vs Mesmer. Either you use no skills, in which case they kill you for free, or you do, they instantly interrupt it with no counterplay, DIY stun you, and kill you.

Bravan is right. If you keep the immob out of the equation (keep in mind that immob comes from CI, which is now disabled and will probably not return in its past state), MoD does nothing but instant cast daze you, which is only dangerous when you are healing while low and only useful for preventing bursts outside of that. You keep implying that MoD has the immob part baked in. It doesnt.

I may dislike Mesmer because of how annoying it has the potential to be among other things, but there's no need to touch MoD if it can't instantly snare you anymore.And, for the record, I am not advocating nerfing thieves OR warriors. Both of those classes as they stand now are not unbalanced as far as I know. I just think pushing to shave MoD, on its own, unaffected by traits, is silly.

Thank you for put that right, i start to get super annoyed by ppl mixing things up, everyone can clearly see that he has no clue what he is talking about and i would have a hard time to stay polite to him at this point. Bronze lvl propaganda at its finest. He never touched Mesmer at all not even the lamest build it has i would bet.

Yknow, the fact that you resort to ad hominems every time someone dismantles your poor arguments makes it kinda clear you arent neutral at all. I even call doubt on your claim that you dont main mesmer. In fact, I think not only do you main Mirage, you dont know how to play anything else, hence why youre so adamant about keeping things as they are.

You don't need to main Mesmer to know that Mantra of Distraction has no immob and how to counter Mantra and how effective stowing is not only to avoid interrupts. If you feel better when you accuse me of lying than do it. It got clear who has no clue what he is talking about and i showed in several other posts that i have clue about other classes too. It is the forums overdoing hate and exaggerating creating a thread with mesmer complains every 3 days forcing me an all other ppl here to talk about Mesmer all day long.Case closed, you disgraced yourself by showing your cluelessness not me and i am out before i say something i have to feel sry for later.

Given that literally everyone used CI until it got disabled for being so problematic? It basically did. You also repeatedly claimed "Oh you can counter Mantra" and "Oh you can totally avoid instant interrupts", even after I pointed out, repeatedly, that no, you cannot, and

no, you CANNOT

. The fact that you still argue that you can totally stow cancel to dodge an instant interrupt just makes it clear how little clue you have about anything other than playing Mesmer yourself. But go on, find a good Mesmer, and try stowcancelling to stop interrupts against them. I will make a prediction I can guarantee with 100% certainty. Short of the Mesmer screwing up or lagging, you will manage to avoid 0/100 interrupts. Because thats how likely it is to be able to avoid it. 0%. The second that Mesmer presses the button, youre interrupted. And he will only press the button while youre using a skill. There is no opportunity to stop the interrupt.

You stamp with your foot like a 3 years old and saying no it has no counter because you say so and all counters i mentioned are not existing in your world doesn't make it true. If you wanna stay bad and not learn and adapt anything than that is up to you ofc. I am not the one getting rekt by Powermesmers. As said bronze lvl. I am out hf!

It is just funny btw that all mesmer mains in this forum often accused me to be one of the mesmer haters... i think that says everything about my real position in this discussion.

[UNOwen.7132]

@bravan.3876 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:I'm inclined to agree with @bravan.3876 on this.

MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either.

Sips tea

But if a class is "less good at running away", Then most likely they're slower than the class that is better at running away. Mesmers have no mobility outside of blink/jaunt, Illusion leap and portal. They cant get from point A to B very quickly, and if a class is running away, they need to rely on blink/leap to chase, which have reasonably sized cooldowns. The fact of the matter is that objectively, they are slower than thieves, so it seems reasonable to me that there be slightly more leniency on the situations in which they can use their daze.

Thieves can also stop warriors disengaging with rush, by the way, and most of their weapon sets allow them to move a substantial distance in a given direction repeatedly.I'm digressing though. My point is that MoD has a similar function to headshot, and fills the same purpose, but because the class it is being used on is slower than the class that has headshot, it has a bit more leniency on range and cast time. That on its own, is fine. What is not fine is it being able to set off a chain reaction that leads to a high-uptime snare, just like Pulmonary Impact was not fine in its high damage state when used on thieves that would interrupt their way to a kill.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@bravan.3876 said:The daze will not kill you because you still can dodge all dmg skills will be used together or after it. I never got killed by Mesmer only spamming Mantra and hit autoattacks or even luckily hit a big skill accidently with it. Only well timed interrupts (like getting my heal when i am low already, a Mesmer surviving by interrupting my Chilled to the bones) can make a Powermes using Mantra and only Powerblock win a fight. Most Mesmer i met barely get interrupt vs me with their Mantra (mostly on autoattacks what does nothing wihtout CI). You sound like you never played a Powerblock Powermes with Mantra yourself and that vs ppl are not bronze lvl freekills anyway tbh. You sounds like a totally predictable player complaining about something he has no clue how to play against. What you say about stowing is inefficient and nothing i listed is a counter is just ridiculous.

It will, because you wont be able to. Youre immobilized, remember? Its basically a DIY stun. Except better since you need a stunbreak that also cleanses condis or removes immobilizing effects. And yes, were talking about Mesmers who time it to interrupt. Theyre the ones that are a problem after all. And no, I have. I know how broken it is from first-hand experience. Its as if I was playing D/P with higher damage, far lower execution barrier and skill required, and far more resilient. And no, it has nothing to do with predictabiltiy. See, being predictable only matters when there is a way to stop the interrupts. Like say, with Headshot. There is no way to stop the interrupts vs Mesmer. Either you use no skills, in which case they kill you for free, or you do, they instantly interrupt it with no counterplay, DIY stun you, and kill you.

Bravan is right. If you keep the immob out of the equation (keep in mind that immob comes from CI, which is now disabled and will probably not return in its past state), MoD does nothing but instant cast daze you, which is only dangerous when you are healing while low and only useful for preventing bursts outside of that. You keep implying that MoD has the immob part baked in. It doesnt.

I may dislike Mesmer because of how annoying it has the potential to be among other things, but there's no need to touch MoD if it can't instantly snare you anymore.And, for the record, I am not advocating nerfing thieves OR warriors. Both of those classes as they stand now are not unbalanced as far as I know. I just think pushing to shave MoD, on its own, unaffected by traits, is silly.

Thank you for put that right, i start to get super annoyed by ppl mixing things up, everyone can clearly see that he has no clue what he is talking about and i would have a hard time to stay polite to him at this point. Bronze lvl propaganda at its finest. He never touched Mesmer at all not even the lamest build it has i would bet.

Yknow, the fact that you resort to ad hominems every time someone dismantles your poor arguments makes it kinda clear you arent neutral at all. I even call doubt on your claim that you dont main mesmer. In fact, I think not only do you main Mirage, you dont know how to play anything else, hence why youre so adamant about keeping things as they are.

You don't need to main Mesmer to know that Mantra of Distraction has no immob and how to counter Mantra and how effective stowing is not only to avoid interrupts. If you feel better when you accuse me of lying than do it. It got clear who has no clue what he is talking about and i showed in several other posts that i have clue about other classes too. It is the forums overdoing hate and exaggerating creating a thread with mesmer complains every 3 days forcing me an all other ppl here to talk about Mesmer all day long.Case closed, you disgraced yourself by showing your cluelessness not me and i am out before i say something i have to feel sry for later.

Given that literally everyone used CI until it got disabled for being so problematic? It basically did. You also repeatedly claimed "Oh you can counter Mantra" and "Oh you can totally avoid instant interrupts", even after I pointed out, repeatedly, that no, you cannot, and

no, you CANNOT

. The fact that you still argue that you can totally stow cancel to dodge an instant interrupt just makes it clear how little clue you have about anything other than playing Mesmer yourself. But go on, find a good Mesmer, and try stowcancelling to stop interrupts against them. I will make a prediction I can guarantee with 100% certainty. Short of the Mesmer screwing up or lagging, you will manage to avoid 0/100 interrupts. Because thats how likely it is to be able to avoid it. 0%. The second that Mesmer presses the button, youre interrupted. And he will only press the button while youre using a skill. There is no opportunity to stop the interrupt.

You stamp with your foot like a 3 years old and saying no it has no counter because you say so and all counters i mentioned are not existing in your world doesn't make it true. If you wanna stay bad and not learn and adapt anything than that is up to you ofc. I am not the one getting rekt by Powermesmers. As said bronze lvl. I am out hf!

I already pointed out that what you mentioned arent "counters". What you mentioned could be boiled down to, quite literally, "dont fight the Mesmer". The only exception being Stability. Which would work fine, if Mesmer didnt have boonrip to just get rid of it. Unfortunately, they do. So even that doesnt work. In your analogy, you are the 3 year old repeating the same thing over and over even after its been calmly and thoroughly explained to you that its wrong, and why its wrong. Its not gonna change just because you say it even more.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:I'm inclined to agree with @"bravan.3876" on this.

MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either." Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time " <----- what ?

usually 1 dash/blink and swiftness is enaught to run away from mesmer, so preety much every class can do that right now.

Thats not been true ever since Mirage was around. They also have that blink in, well, blink. They also have 2 jaunts. And they have superspeed on demand that beats your swiftness. And repeatable 600 unit dashes. Youre not getting away from Mesmers unless you have a lot of mobility.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@"UNOwen.7132" said:

Eh, not quite. Thief is good at running away because you can simply stealth up, move away from the enemy while theyre not sure where you are, and depending on the gamemode either go for a decap, or mount up and just run away.

True. Keep this in mind.

Mesmers options for long-term stealth are more limited. Theyre good at oneshotting out of stealth. Not so good at running away thanks to stealth. Now, as for your examples, saying that "Mesmer have no mobility outside of the best long-distance teleportation spell, essentially thieves shadowstep on a much shorter cooldown, a lesser thieves shadowstep on a lower cooldown, and a skill that lets them transform dodges into fast long-range dashes". Is like saying "Scourge has no boon transformation outside the 3 skills they have that transform boons". And you forgot to mention that Mirage effectively gets Superspeed while in Mirage Cloak.

Beeecause they don't get superspeed. Not anymore. Not that a 1 second spike of movement speed for spending a dodge is something I would weigh in terms of mobility.

And I guess the sword ambush attack. So no, objectively they arent slower.

They're slower, and you prove it below. Keep in mind I am bringing up the mesmer's speed in getting from point A to point B to explain that MOD is balanced because they have less access to things that could put them in a position to capitalize on Mantra of Distraction's interrupt as compared to thief and its headshot, which is accepted as balanced.

In fact, I would argue theyre generally faster. The big advantage thief has, and the reason theyre still better decap bots is the nature of their movement. Thieves primarily move around the map with shortbow 5. Being a blink, this means thieves handle elevation much better. Mesmer only has Blink for moving up large distances, as Jaunt is too short, and the sword ambush skill is just vertical movement. Thieves are better at horizontal movement, and for sPvP decap purposes thats better. For the purposes of catching up with people? It isnt. Its actually worse. Unless they are a thief, because noone else handles elevation well either, at which point it doesnt matter either way. Thief is good at not fighting after all.

Why are you separating thieves ability to move vertically much more frequently than mesmers from consideration in how mobile they are? That should also be considered. All use methods of thief ports and their stealth movement, as it relates to moving to any specific point in the map that is normally accessible, should be considered in terms of their mobility.

Thieves aren't good at fighting. That is true. But that fact has no bearing on whether MoD needs a nerf. What does have a bearing on whether MoD needs a nerf are the use cases it applies to, across all of the specifications that can access it. Keep in mind any changes made to MOD will potentially affect EVERY mesmer build, now and in the future.

As for whether thieves are faster your argument basically goes:

Thieves are good at scaling elevations fasterAnd thieves are better at horizontal movement*but these dont make them better at catching up with people, because other people dont have vertical blinks.

To which I say, blink up a cliff after a warrior uses the stairs and see if you can catch him.

They cannot. Something youd know if you played Warrior in WvW for 10 minutes. Its honestly sad to see the poor thieves just struggle to keep up only to fail anyway in the end. And no, the only weaponset that does is shortbow 5. The rest of the weapons are actually terrible at moving distances, Sword can no longer do the fake backport so its out, Rifles teleport is just bad, and if youre already out of range all D/P has is Heartseeker, which is honestly just a sad skill nowadays.

This is the PVP forum, unfortunately I do not play in WvW because class balancing is nonexistent there. roaming isn't fun there anymore. Sorry, I got something in my sarcasm.

Steal, Sword 2, swiftness on steal, and shortbow will let me keep pace with any low health warrior, as long as I want. Any rushes can be disabled with headshot. I only consider this as it relates to conquest because this is the PvP forum and WvW is a different, very pitiable beast.

So, now that we have established that the class its being used on is in fact faster, not slower, does that change your mindset? How about the fact that Mesmer also has vastly superior defensive and offensive capabilities? Youd imagine that the class that is great at fighting either way would at least be worse at stopping the enemy from hitting their big hits than the class thats pretty bad at it. But no, because thats how it goes apparently.

We haven't established that Mesmer is faster. See above. And because they have less chase than thieves, who have an almost instant interrupt that allows them to shut down escapes/heals, it remains reasonable that mesmers having an interrupt that allows them to do the same should be considerate of that.

Mesmer has superior offensive and defensive capabilities if they run specifically condi mirage. Power mirage, Power Chrono, and Core Mes are all more balanced, and any nerf to MoD nerfs all of those classes. With CI gone, Condi mirage is also significantly weaker, and they are now considering running bunker. I understand the instadaze is annoying, but nerfing it for whatever reason you are nerfing it (If it is because of instant cast daze, are you okay with headshot being nerfed, since they fit the same use case? If it is because of Immob, are you aware the trait that makes it immob you is gone?) breaks too many interactions, and the synergy that made it really strong has already been disabled. If you're fine with headshot as is, you should be fine with MoD.

Also, while this mostly applies to traits, I've said it a million times, if there is a problem with a spec overperforming, nerf the spec, not the core pieces of the class. People keep pushing for this whenever there's a class they don't like. I don't understand. You're risking breaking every power mes spec over an instant daze, which is only useful in a few situations on its own.

Also again, I am not advocating nerfing anything right now. CI was the only problem that made mirages toxic levels of annoying, as far as I can tell.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:

Eh, not quite. Thief is good at running away because you can simply stealth up, move away from the enemy while theyre not sure where you are, and depending on the gamemode either go for a decap, or mount up and just run away.

True. Keep this in mind.

Mesmers options for long-term stealth are more limited. Theyre good at oneshotting out of stealth. Not so good at running away thanks to stealth. Now, as for your examples, saying that "Mesmer have no mobility outside of the best long-distance teleportation spell, essentially thieves shadowstep on a much shorter cooldown, a lesser thieves shadowstep on a lower cooldown, and a skill that lets them transform dodges into fast long-range dashes". Is like saying "Scourge has no boon transformation outside the 3 skills they have that transform boons".

And you forgot to mention that Mirage effectively gets Superspeed while in Mirage Cloak.

Beeecause they don't get superspeed. Not anymore. Not that a 1 second spike of movement speed for spending a dodge is something I would weigh in terms of mobility.

And I guess the sword ambush attack. So no, objectively they arent slower.

They're slower, and you prove it below. Keep in mind I am bringing up the mesmer's speed in getting from point A to point B to explain that MOD is balanced because they have less access to things that could put them in a position to capitalize on Mantra of Distraction's interrupt as compared to thief and its headshot, which is accepted as balanced.

In fact, I would argue theyre generally faster. The big advantage thief has, and the reason theyre still better decap bots is the nature of their movement. Thieves primarily move around the map with shortbow 5. Being a blink, this means thieves handle elevation much better. Mesmer only has Blink for moving up large distances, as Jaunt is too short, and the sword ambush skill is just vertical movement. Thieves are better at horizontal movement, and for sPvP decap purposes thats better. For the purposes of catching up with people? It isnt. Its actually worse. Unless they are a thief, because noone else handles elevation well either, at which point it doesnt matter either way. Thief is good at not fighting after all.

Why are you separating thieves ability to move vertically much more frequently than mesmers from consideration in how mobile they are? That should also be considered.

Thieves aren't good at fighting. That is true. But that fact has no bearing on whether MoD needs a nerf.

What

does

have a bearing on whether MoD needs a nerf are the use cases it applies to, across all of the specifications that can access it. Keep in mind any changes made to MOD will potentially affect

EVERY

mesmer build, now and in the future.

As for whether thieves are faster your argument basically goes:

Thieves are good at scaling elevations faster

And thieves are better at horizontal movement*but these dont make them better at catching up with people, because other people dont have vertical blinks.

To which I say, blink up a cliff after a warrior uses the stairs and see if you can catch him.

They cannot. Something youd know if you played Warrior in WvW for 10 minutes. Its honestly sad to see the poor thieves just struggle to keep up only to fail anyway in the end. And no, the only weaponset that does is shortbow 5. The rest of the weapons are actually terrible at moving distances, Sword can no longer do the fake backport so its out, Rifles teleport is just bad, and if youre already out of range all D/P has is Heartseeker, which is honestly just a sad skill nowadays.

This is the PVP forum, unfortunately I do not play in WvW because

class balancing is nonexistent there.

roaming isn't fun there anymore. Sorry, I got something in my sarcasm.

Steal, Sword 2, swiftness on steal, and shortbow will let me keep pace with any low health warrior, as long as I want. Any rushes can be disabled with headshot. I only consider this as it relates to conquest because this is the PvP forum and WvW is a different, very pitiable beast.

So, now that we have established that the class its being used on is in fact

faster

, not slower, does that change your mindset? How about the fact that Mesmer also has vastly superior defensive

and

offensive capabilities? Youd imagine that the class that is great at fighting either way would at least be worse at stopping the enemy from hitting their big hits than the class thats pretty bad at it. But no, because thats how it goes apparently.

We haven't established that Mesmer is faster. See above. And because they have less chase than thieves, who have an almost instant interrupt that allows them to shut down escapes/heals, it remains reasonable that mesmers having an interrupt that allows them to do the same should be considerate of that.

Mesmer has superior offensive and defensive capabilities

if they run specifically condi mirage

. Power mirage, Power Chrono, and Core Mes are all more balanced, and any nerf to MoD nerfs all of those classes. With CI gone, Condi mirage is also significantly weaker, and they are now considering running bunker. I understand the instadaze is annoying, but it breaks too many interactions, and the synergy that made it really strong has already been disabled. If you're fine with headshot as is, you should be fine with MoD. I've said it a million times, if there is a problem with a spec overperforming, nerf the spec, not the core of the class.

Well, I did say "effectively". Though, now that I looked up the math, I am in fact off by a bit. Its slightly slower than superspeed, but still really really fast. And I would. Because it makes every Mirage Cloak give you 150 extra units of distance. Which you get a lot of. Its not much, but its noticable. Its certainly more than Thieves Swiftness.

No, I dont. And remember, your original argument was specifically "Mesmer needs instant interrupts so that enemies wont just run away from them". This'll be important in just a bit.

Because the original context was running enemies, and I alluded to the details. The thing is, when an enemy is running away, the vertical mobility only matters if the enemy that is running away is gonna be using it to escape. Here is the thing. There is 1 class in the game that actually has more vertical mobility than Mesmer. Thief. The problem is, even a thief wont be able to stop a thief from running away once they have managed to get to that stage. A thief can only stop it by bursting the thief down before he can run away. Something Mesmer is considerably better at. So in the only situation in which vertical mobility could matter ... it doesnt. Thats why Mesmers are in fact faster not slower. As for your example, blinking up one slope is something Mesmer can do. Multiple slopes is where it matters. And while the idea of a Warrior running up the stairs, only for a Mesmer to appear in front of them, so they run up the stairs again while the Mesmer sit arounds is comical, its not going to happen.

They wont. Sword 2's Fake backport is disabled. It lets you get ontop of an enemy once, but after that you have to wait a long time just to be able to port again once. Only to wait again. The swiftness is just again, a considerably worse version of Mesmers semi-superspeed. It also doesnt help that much seeing how since Warrior actually has a baseline 25% speedboost, and likely has swiftness himself, you will be running slower. Oh and you cant interrupt his main mobility skill, whirlwind attack since it evades. Youll be able to stop the Rush perhaps, but by then the Warrior is looooong gone. And thats assuming he didnt just give himself quickness to rush out of headshot range before you can stop it. Because Warrior builds nowadays tend to do that.

They have less chase than thieves in every scenario that doesnt involve someone porting up 2 cliffs back to back. Which only thief can do. Which even another thief cant keep up with. So they have more chase in only one super-narrow situation that doesnt matter 1 bit. In normal situations they have more chase. So given that, youd expect their interrupt to be worse at stopping escaping enemies. Instead its so much better its not even funny.

The difference is Headshot isnt instant, doesnt daze for 1.5 seconds and can actually be countered. If MoD had a cast time, or dazed for 0.25 seconds, or better both, the analogy would work. As it is, its just headshot on crack on a class that should have worse interrupts.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@"UNOwen.7132" said:

Well, I did say "effectively".

squints....Fine, you pass.

Though, now that I looked up the math, I am in fact off by a bit. Its slightly slower than superspeed, but still really really fast. And I would. Because it makes every Mirage Cloak give you 150 extra units of distance. Which you get a lot of. Its not much, but its noticable. Its certainly more than Thieves Swiftness.

I wouldn't say that, but I'm also not willing to go test it for this argument right now, so very well, we can consider it in this.

No, I dont. And remember, your original argument was specifically "Mesmer needs instant interrupts so that enemies wont just run away from them". This'll be important in just a bit.

Because the original context was running enemies, and I alluded to the details. The thing is, when an enemy is running away, the vertical mobility only matters if the enemy that is running away is gonna be using it to escape. Here is the thing. There is 1 class in the game that actually has more vertical mobility than Mesmer. Thief. The problem is, even a thief wont be able to stop a thief from running away once they have managed to get to that stage. A thief can only stop it by bursting the thief down before he can run away. Something Mesmer is considerably better at. So in the only situation in which vertical mobility could matter ... it doesnt. Thats why Mesmers are in fact faster not slower. As for your example, blinking up one slope is something Mesmer can do. Multiple slopes is where it matters. And while the idea of a Warrior running up the stairs, only for a Mesmer to appear in front of them, so they run up the stairs again while the Mesmer sit arounds is comical, its not going to happen.

It is something mesmer can do, but they have less access to the mechanic pool that would allow them to do this, as compared to thief. If a mesmer has just used a blink for a stunbreak and a warrior bails, they have less chase in that situation. At any point in a skirmish, a thief has generally more options to traverse terrain on a shorter cooldown, is what I am trying to get at. Because of that, it seems right to me to have an interrupt that is counterable/weaker as you mentioned below, but can still break disengage attempts/heals.

They wont. Sword 2's Fake backport is disabled. It lets you get ontop of an enemy once, but after that you have to wait a long time just to be able to port again once. Only to wait again. The swiftness is just again, a considerably worse version of Mesmers semi-superspeed. It also doesnt help that much seeing how since Warrior actually has a baseline 25% speedboost, and likely has swiftness himself, you will be running slower. Oh and you cant interrupt his main mobility skill, whirlwind attack since it evades. Youll be able to stop the Rush perhaps, but by then the Warrior is looooong gone. And thats assuming he didnt just give himself quickness to rush out of headshot range before you can stop it. Because Warrior builds nowadays tend to do that.

What warrior runs frenzy nowadays digression but valid points.

They have less chase than thieves in every scenario that doesnt involve someone porting up 2 cliffs back to back. Which only thief can do. Which even another thief cant keep up with. So they have more chase in only one super-narrow situation that doesnt matter 1 bit. In normal situations they have more chase. So given that, youd expect their interrupt to be worse at stopping escaping enemies. Instead its so much better its not even funny.

The difference is Headshot isnt instant, doesnt daze for 1.5 seconds and can actually be countered. If MoD had a cast time, or dazed for 0.25 seconds, or better both, the analogy would work. As it is, its just headshot on crack on a class that should have worse interrupts.

What you are saying is true. I'm not entirely convinced because I think that, across most fight scenarios, MoD as it is now would cover the mobility discrepancy that you do not agree exists, but I respect the argument nonetheless. I still don't think it is causing a stark overperformance and thus absolutely needs a nerf for the reasons stated above (which I can see the rationale behind btw), but very well~

[UNOwen.7132]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:

Well, I did say "effectively".

squints

....Fine, you pass.

Though, now that I looked up the math, I am in fact off by a bit. Its slightly slower than superspeed, but still really really fast. And I would. Because it makes every Mirage Cloak give you 150 extra units of distance. Which you get a lot of. Its not much, but its noticable. Its certainly more than Thieves Swiftness.

I wouldn't say that, but I'm also not willing to go test it for this argument right now, so very well, we can consider it in this.

No, I dont. And remember, your original argument was specifically "Mesmer needs instant interrupts so that enemies wont just run away from them". This'll be important in just a bit.

Because the original context was running enemies, and I alluded to the details. The thing is, when an enemy is running away, the vertical mobility only matters if the enemy that is running away is gonna be using it to escape. Here is the thing. There is 1 class in the game that actually has more vertical mobility than Mesmer. Thief. The problem is, even a thief wont be able to stop a thief from running away once they have managed to get to that stage. A thief can only stop it by bursting the thief down before he can run away. Something Mesmer is considerably better at. So in the only situation in which vertical mobility could matter ... it doesnt. Thats why Mesmers are in fact faster not slower. As for your example, blinking up one slope is something Mesmer can do. Multiple slopes is where it matters. And while the idea of a Warrior running up the stairs, only for a Mesmer to appear in front of them, so they run up the stairs again while the Mesmer sit arounds is comical, its not going to happen.

It is something mesmer can do, but they have less access to the mechanic pool that would allow them to do this, as compared to thief. If a mesmer has just used a blink for a stunbreak and a warrior bails, they have less chase in that situation. At any point in a skirmish, a thief has more options to traverse terrain on a shorter cooldown, is what I am trying to get at. Because of that, it seems right to me to have an interrupt that is counterable/weaker as you mentioned below, but can still break disengage attempts/heals.

They wont. Sword 2's Fake backport is disabled. It lets you get ontop of an enemy once, but after that you have to wait a long time just to be able to port again once. Only to wait again. The swiftness is just again, a considerably worse version of Mesmers semi-superspeed. It also doesnt help that much seeing how since Warrior actually has a baseline 25% speedboost, and likely has swiftness himself, you will be running slower. Oh and you cant interrupt his main mobility skill, whirlwind attack since it evades. Youll be able to stop the Rush perhaps, but by then the Warrior is looooong gone. And thats assuming he didnt just give himself quickness to rush out of headshot range before you can stop it. Because Warrior builds nowadays tend to do that.

What warrior runs frenzy nowadays

digression but valid points.

They have less chase than thieves in every scenario that doesnt involve someone porting up 2 cliffs back to back. Which only thief can do. Which even another thief cant keep up with. So they have more chase in only one super-narrow situation that doesnt matter 1 bit. In normal situations they have

more

chase. So given that, youd expect their interrupt to be worse at stopping escaping enemies. Instead its so much better its not even funny.

The difference is Headshot isnt instant, doesnt daze for 1.5 seconds and can actually be countered. If MoD had a cast time, or dazed for 0.25 seconds, or better both, the analogy would work. As it is, its just headshot on crack on a class that should have worse interrupts.

What you are saying is true. I'm not entirely convinced because I think that, across most fight scenarios, MoD as it is now would cover the mobility discrepancy that you do not agree exists, but I respect the argument nonetheless. I still don't think it is causing a stark overperformance and thus absolutely needs a nerf for the reasons stated above (which I can see the rationale behind btw), but very well~

In the same sense, if the Thief just used Initiative for the fight (which, you would imagine they do given that they need to use initiative if theyre doing anything other than autoattack), they might not have the 6 initiative for shortbow 5. In fact, as far as situations go, thats actually a fair bit more likely than blink having been used up, especially if the enemy got hurt so much theyre having to retreat now. Even then, a warrior wont be able to get stairs up particularly quickly, and unlike thief who just had to use up initiative to have no chase at all, Mesmer just needs dodges for the sword ambush, any jaunt charges, or any way to get mirage cloak to be able to chase after a warrior. So really, at any point in the skirmish that doesnt involve the thief sitting on their full pool of initiative while the Mesmer expends everything, the Mesmer has more chase.

Edit: To the Frenzy point, a surprising amount. But they also run the sigil that gives quickness on weapon swap on GS, so thats the more likely one.

Honestly the main nerf I would propose, giving it a cast time like headshot, is just for the sake of counterplay and removing unfun scenarios. It sucks that Mesmer can both blast you to bits with their high damage while also, at the same time, stopping both counterattacks and defenses. Usually when classes go all out, theyre either vulnerable to being stopped, or you can avoid the damage then launch a counterassault. With Mesmer its a bit more tricky.

[Daishi.6027]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Daishi.6027 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Before I say this, know that I am one of the people who said on several occasions: "That I didn't think CI Mantra Condis was as OP as people claimed." but if you're talking about people complaining about MOD specifically, you should consider this:

Consider playing other classes, where CCing someone and interrupting a skill, requires chasing them with a melee weapon and actually connecting with it. Consider it requires significant effort to hit with a Skull Grinder or an Earth Shaker or a Reaper #5. All of these types of CCs have obvious tells, the animations are long, and they are obviously inc when a melee character is riding you in melee, so people know when to "be ready" to engage and counter play other such CCs.

MOD on the other hand, is an instant cast CC and an instant strike nonetheless. It requires no cast time and no projectile travel time, such as a Headshot or a Ranger LB #4. A Mesmer can stand 1200 range outside of a team fight, and freely CC assist vs. any target that he chooses, leaving absolutely no room for visual counter play on the part of the player's he is focusing.

This is why people complain about MOD. It has less counter play than even the old unblockable Death's Judgement man. That's just obnoxious.

Although there is strength in this, and personally I'm not super fond of MoD, and I do think the game would be better without it simply because I do not find that form of gameplay healthy. I contest the idea that it is to much and to strong for the amount given and that it doesn't reach at least a similar standard to other skills like headshot, which although is closer, is instant with a fast enough travel speed that you need to somewhat read it to avoid it.

2 dazes either every 14+ seconds (a few of those seconds requiring an active charge) or 1 daze every 15 seconds is not an unsubstantial, or inconsequential limitation, when compared to other classes who although don't have the same CC methods; do have more direct offensive or defensive methods. Locking down and CC was intentionally supposed to be part of the design and we never ran into issues with power.

If you are spamming this from 1200 away that is annoying for sure, but no one should be left to free cast anyways, and when done so could be problematic for your team regardless.

We only ran into issues when people could put torment so people couldn't run.Confusion so people couldn't use skills.Then Interrupts in between that along with cover condis, also immobilized targets.Also with amulets that give expertise and a defensive stat making it decently able to sustain and it's damage had passive ramp thanks to illusions.

CI and MoD only became a problem with condi

There were in my opinion, a few things that when synergized, created the issue with it being "a bit over the top"

1. Like you said, it was only a problem with condi. With power shatter builds, the damage bursts are very telegraphed and slow & cumbersome. In this case, MOD is fine and I would dare say that Power Shatter builds actually
   need
   it, in its current state mechanically.
   But when we are talking condi attrition, blowing off a ton of random ambush damage from clone spam auto attacks, this level of instant CC starts to become a bit much when it is virtually impossible to avoid all the clone damage to begin with, even before getting targeted with additional CC.
2. So now a Mirage is running condi with MOD, and then it lays CI on top of that. As you already said, amulets providing expertise makes the immobilization crazy ridiculous. Normally I wouldn't think this was an issue. Normally I wouldn't be concerned with how expertise effects immobilization, even on Ranger Immob spam builds.
   But against a Condi Mirage, which is spamming small & very frequent condi applications 100% of the time during engagement, players must cycle through condi cleanses as often as they can.
   So the condi cleanses that would normally be saved to escape something like a 3s Immob, are rarely available to use for that 3s Immob, because they have to be spammed as often as possible to even stay engaged with the clone attrition + Mirage direct damage. If the bulk of the Mirage's kill damage came at the same time as its burst + Immob, it wouldn't be so difficult to maintain CDs and use them to clear all of those effects at once. This is however not the case. All the Mirage has to do is understand the meta and know when he has burnt out most of the opponent's CDs of condi cleanses and stunbreaks, and then lay down the MOD/CI burst = dead opponent. If the opponent cannot kill the Mirage before the Mirage baits the first cycle of CDs, it is impossible to counter play past that point, and the Mirage's opponent will surely lose the 1v1.
3. Now even on a Core Mes, all of the above ^ still isn't really OP.
   The thing that synergizes too well with the above, is still Infinite Horizon and condi builds having too much damage off clones from IH and the innate mechanics of Mirage Cloak in general.
   When the Mirage & its clones can attack you with ambush skills while simultaneously dodging, while also popping off instant CC skills to boot, things start to get a bit messed up. To be able to take that many actions on other classes, requires decision making. "Should I CC first, and then attack, and then dodge roll?" "Should I just double dodge roll in and then attack and then CC and follow up with attack?" "I'm getting low on resources, maybe I should just roll around defensively now instead of trying to attack?" Mirage on the other hand, can quite seriously always do it all, all of the time, all at once. <- This is what makes it so strong in the hands of experienced players. They are able to avoid the punishment of choosing to take the wrong actions at the wrong time. Strong Mirage players, as long as they have resources left, are able to instantly dodge roll while still maintaining attack and while still having the option to instant CC to assist in a burst or to stop a burst, at any $%^&ing time they so choose, because it's all instant and can overlap in animations/actions taken, due to no cast times and attacking while dodging at the same time. This is enormously powerful when wielded by more experienced players. The tactical advantages that this grants knowledgeable players with good reflexes is too much on Condi Mirage builds. Again, I dare say that both Mirage Cloak and Infinite Horizon are fine on Power Shatter builds, they need it actually. On condi however, it's busted.

Really in my opinion, I think the core of the issue is the same problem that Mirage Condi has always had, and that is that the ambush damage rolling off of clones is just way too high and too frequent of application. I had started running this build before I took my leave of absence, in both spvp and wvw. I'd like to point out that I'm a bad Mesmer player and very inexperienced on the class. But on this build, I was able to get away with being a bad Mesmer player. All I had to do was create a kitten load of clones and then play 100% defensively as my clones tore apart opponents each and every time I used a dodge roll. Then of course, being an experienced player in general who knows the meta, when I'd see a player trying to disengage a bit for a heal cycle, I'd just get real aggressive with the CCs to interrupt it and by that time they were in the danger zone and ripe to die, in absolutely no position to counter play or get aggressive with my Mirage. I noticed that the build was terrible in team fights when focused, but in 1v1 situations you could bait anything into death if it was goofy enough to stay and fight you.

Just gonna say it one more time:

I really believe the core underlying problem here, after actually running this build for awhile, is not CI or MOD. The core issue is that ambush damage off of clones with IH is just too high while running Mirage Condi.

Chaith had made a comment awhile back, something like: "At some point with Mirage, Mesmers had become like a Turret Engi." I agree, that's exactly what it feels like. With Condi Mirage variants, it doesn't even really reward proper Shattering anymore, but rather it rewards setting up a kitten load of clones and letting them machine gun down anyone who stays in the area while the Mirage plays 100% defensively. This kind of gameplay is not healthy, regardless of if someone believes it is OP or not.

I concur with most if not all of this. I just really wish power would stop having to suffer for the sins of condi, and that A-net would fix the problem with condi in the first place the first time, and not go down an entirely ridiculous pattern of nerfs that hurt both builds while the main issues that made condi mirage so strong lingered and power just got more and more clunky.

I agree with what is essentially a "pvp ban" because of the context of the meta and the health of the game, honestly I wish they would do this more often. What I disagree with is the standard in which a-net approaches everything that culminated to this spot.

Mesmer is mesmer, people are going to complain about it regardless of it's strength and viability. But that means it's on a-net even more to focus on the main issues, that many of us have pointed out to be apparent from the start, instead of the people who are going to complain no matter what. So many have pointed out that Condi alone was the issue and yet a-net took swings and made "trade offs" where they didn't belong, and that is a standard so far only imposed on mesmer and it's elite specs.

While condi is finally vulnerable enough to hit, and kill when it's playing full defensive and no longer (almost) passively win; now power is mediocre at best.That was quite the casualty to reach this spot when all they had to do was reduce the output and make it on par with power.

[praqtos.9035]

@"UNOwen.7132" said:Honestly the main nerf I would propose, giving it a cast time like headshot, is just for the sake of counterplay and removing unfun scenarios. It sucks that Mesmer can both blast you to bits with their high damage while also, at the same time, stopping both counterattacks and defenses. Usually when classes go all out, theyre either vulnerable to being stopped, or you can avoid the damage then launch a counterassault. With Mesmer its a bit more tricky.Will you stop lie to yourself at least? Daze doesnt prevent "any kind of defense", power mesmer burst isnt "oneshot" unless you go afk and eat everything being thrown at you,literally to die you have to eat every single skill from berserk mesmer.Thief mains that hard counter any kind of power mesmer complain about it... Ever tried to learn to play?@"UNOwen.7132" said:

" Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time " <----- what ?Thats not been true ever since Mirage was around. They also have that blink in, well, blink. They also have 2 jaunts. And they have superspeed on demand that beats your swiftness. And repeatable 600 unit dashes. Youre not getting away from Mesmers unless you have a

lot

of mobility.Nothing moves faster than thief, mirage evade is simple movespeed buff being destroyed by cripple/chill and lasts 0.75s, this "repeatable" dashes cost endurance without access to vigor.I will adopt sind phrase : clueless gold player.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Does meta mirage even run sword though?

And why is thief being dragged into this debate over ci, this isn't a sprint race debate.

P.s nerf holo.

[Ben K.6238]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:If I understood this the 60-90 is an ICD on CI, if that is the case, it would be a worthless trait, since you would be wasting a 60sec trait to get a skill cd up to 20.A more sensible approach would be +20sec cd with a 10sec-15 tops ICD.As for the power drain it would be cool, that or arcane languor, every time you rupt foe would get exhaustion for x seconds, with ICD.

Your understanding is correct - the point would be to pick the skill to disable carefully, because you're only going to get one opportunity in most cases. But I concede that might not be so significant with the current state of balance in GW2.

It's certainly interesting to look back at GW1 and see Diversion able to knock a skill out for nearly 60 seconds on a 12s cooldown.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:I'm inclined to agree with @"bravan.3876" on this.

MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either." Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time " <----- what ?

usually 1 dash/blink and swiftness is enaught to run away from mesmer, so preety much every class can do that right now.

Thats not been true ever since Mirage was around. They also have that blink in, well, blink. They also have 2 jaunts. And they have superspeed on demand that beats your swiftness. And repeatable 600 unit dashes. Youre not getting away from Mesmers unless you have a

lot

of mobility.

alright so you want sword mirage to chase someone using blink,jaunt and ambush sword?first of all using sword means you are power mirage ( that kinda sucks ) or you are trolling so nobody even needs to run away from you. Cmirage with sword means that for 9s you are useless, kinda like selfdaze for 9s.you just used our strongest mobility tools, too bad you cant use them if you wanna have impact.if i use superspeed,blink,sword and jaunt.it means i went chaos traitline with jaunt as power mesmer, what it means is that i have no damage, cc, survivibility and in return i have good mobility, on par with warriors, mb slightly better due to jumping on ledges.what you spew out is what usually happens with people that dont play the class they whine about, you play against condi mirage, you get whooped by good condi and you think, damn mirage has good dueling ability!then different build power mirage kills you, and you think DAMN mirage has a good burst damage !, then different build mirage runs away from you and you think DAMN it even has amazing mobility!!!!, while in reality those are 3 different builds. cant have it all in 1 thing.

[UNOwen.7132]

@praqtos.9035 said:@Lincolnbeard.1735 look another thief with a victim syndrome :joy:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:Oh yes, it does. Youre pretty much restricted to dodgerolls, and stunbreaks. And yes, Power Mesmer in fact

does

oneshot. In fact, outside of cheesy backstab oneshot builds (which only work on squishy as hell enemies), Mesmer is easily the best class at oneshotting. The full burst takes less than a quarter of a second to hit if you do it properly. And it kills anything but the tankiest builds. Its pretty kitten silly, and probably my most-played WvW build that I only stopped because oneshotting without counterplay gets dull after a while.So you are talking about wvw? I'm not interested in your wvw stories, I had seen enough 0 malice over 21k oneshots from stealth without any counterplay but pretend what u want. :joy:Except Mirage, obviously. And its a significantly better movement speed buff than Swiftness, and obviously does a lot better vs cripple/chill. It also lasts 0.75 seconds every time you get into mirage cloak. And yes, the dash does take endurance. Just like Thieves Shortbow 5 takes initiative. Difference is, you regenerate endurance way faster. That being said, it seems youve never actually played Mirage. Because then you wouldve known that Mirage has plenty of access to vigor, uses sigils of energy on both weapons and rune of the adventurer, a healing skill that grants vigor, ontop of the whole jaunt thing. So, perhaps try playing the build for a bit, see how mobile it actually is. And you will see quite clearly that yeah, its way faster than thief unless youre porting up ledges back to back.So you made this post full of nonsense and lies just to provoce me? Wont work.Initiative will replenish naturally at one point every second. Wiki.But...Difference is, you regenerate endurance way faster.6 seconds to use infilitrator arrow vs 10 seconds to gain an evade.Seems like you never played thief even once, I recommend you to play it before talk to me again.Because then you wouldve known that Mirage has plenty of access to vigor, uses sigils of energy on both weapons and rune of the adventurer, a healing skill that grants vigor, ontop of the whole jaunt thingSo the build you complaint about is... domination dueling mirage ? Vigor access is only on crit(in combat lul) 3/10 gutted in one of patches when others either 5/10 or permanent like thief with boosted it beyond belief. And on shatter 1.5s.

plenty of access to vigor

:joy:Pretend 0.75s 66% movespeed far better than swiftness? Funny guy.So whats up with energy sigils? They count as mobility tools now? They work out of combat? Mesmer has double mainhand sword just for "incombat" mobility ?Oh,my,god RUNE OF THE ADVENTURER, thats a killer :joy:I'm not willing to waste 25s cd heal just for 5s of vigor, neither my the only cleanse in entire build and extra panic button with kitten-long cooldown.With such pathetic vigor as power mirage there is no way its faster than thief.No swiftness at all vs swiftness from dodges. Check.Leap on 10s cd , 600 range vs infi arrow every 6s 900 range check.Another thief main pretends his class is worst at everything... even burst is not there... :joy:!

I also changed my mind, silver player, not even gold.edit: kid was sniped by mods

The WvW version is what I played, because oneshot builds arent quite as effective in sPvP, due to the design of the mode. However, you can oneshot just as easily in sPvP. Yknow, the standard greatsword combo that does something like 4.0 scaling damage (to compare, malicious backstab is 2.62 scaling).

Yknow, just stating "oh its all lies" when someone takes your argument apart and shows it to be wrong doesnt make your argument convincing. It just makes it clear your argument doesnt work, and that you have to just deflect to try and salvage it.

Are we pretending vigor and instant endurance regeneration doesnt exist again? The first reduces the baseline regeneration to 7.5 seconds, but then you have 2 seperate ways to regain 50 endurance instantly. One of which has 9 seconds of cooldown. Thief only has 1, and thats a 60 second cooldown stunbreak. So, yeah, a lot easier to regain endurance.

We were talking about chase potential. So obviously, in-combat sigils count since were going to be, yknow, in combat? Its kind of in the description. Out of combat thief is still faster at moving, thanks primarily due to elevation advantage, which is certainly good because if Mesmer was also better at that, thief would have no reason to be picked.

When chasing an enemy? Of course youre going to do that. You really need to check the context before commenting, else youre just going off on a tangent that isnt relevant.

"no swiftness at all", so were first going to ignore that mirage gets better swiftness on mirage cloak? Were also going to ignore the fact that Superior Sigil of Agility gives swiftness? Alright, guess if you want results you cant get normally, you need to bend the truth a little. Also, Leap on 10 second, blatant lie, 900 range on infiltrators arrow, I assume youre not familiar with how it works (you move while its midair. It ends up being about 700 range usually, unless porting up ledges). So yeah, I suppose if you bend everything to your whims, even the truth can be false.

Also your argument against thief not having burst is you getting hit by the most telegraphed and easy to avoid burst skill in the game? After you were hit by at least 3 skirmishers shot, so even the burst you couldve avoided with ease took at least 2 full seconds to get there, as opposed to Mesmers .2 seconds.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:I'm inclined to agree with @"bravan.3876" on this.

MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either." Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time " <----- what ?

usually 1 dash/blink and swiftness is enaught to run away from mesmer, so preety much every class can do that right now.

Thats not been true ever since Mirage was around. They also have that blink in, well, blink. They also have 2 jaunts. And they have superspeed on demand that beats your swiftness. And repeatable 600 unit dashes. Youre not getting away from Mesmers unless you have a

lot

of mobility.

alright so you want sword mirage to chase someone using blink,jaunt and ambush sword?first of all using sword means you are power mirage ( that kinda sucks ) or you are trolling so nobody even needs to run away from you. Cmirage with sword means that for 9s you are useless, kinda like selfdaze for 9s.you just used our strongest mobility tools, too bad you cant use them if you wanna have impact.if i use superspeed,blink,sword and jaunt.it means i went chaos traitline with jaunt as power mesmer, what it means is that i have no damage, cc, survivibility and in return i have good mobility, on par with warriors, mb slightly better due to jumping on ledges.what you spew out is what usually happens with people that dont play the class they whine about, you play against condi mirage, you get whooped by good condi and you think, kitten mirage has good dueling ability!then different build power mirage kills you, and you think kitten mirage has a good burst damage !, then different build mirage runs away from you and you think kitten it even has amazing mobility!!!!, while in reality those are 3 different builds. cant have it all in 1 thing.

You get pseudo-superspeed from mirage. So no need for chaos traitline. Though, I should probably stop calling it superspeed, since while its twice as good as swiftness, its not quite as good as super-speed. No, you get that just from being mirage, no need to get any other traitlines. So, you still have the ludicrous power shatter burst that can kill almost anyone, mobility that outperforms warriors, and survivability that you get from being, well, a power shatter mirage. And no, you can have it all in one thing. I should know. I used it for a while, with all of these benefits in one build.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:I'm inclined to agree with @"bravan.3876" on this.

MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either." Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time " <----- what ?

usually 1 dash/blink and swiftness is enaught to run away from mesmer, so preety much every class can do that right now.

Thats not been true ever since Mirage was around. They also have that blink in, well, blink. They also have 2 jaunts. And they have superspeed on demand that beats your swiftness. And repeatable 600 unit dashes. Youre not getting away from Mesmers unless you have a

lot

of mobility.

alright so you want sword mirage to chase someone using blink,jaunt and ambush sword?first of all using sword means you are power mirage ( that kinda sucks ) or you are trolling so nobody even needs to run away from you. Cmirage with sword means that for 9s you are useless, kinda like selfdaze for 9s.you just used our strongest mobility tools, too bad you cant use them if you wanna have impact.if i use superspeed,blink,sword and jaunt.it means i went chaos traitline with jaunt as power mesmer, what it means is that i have no damage, cc, survivibility and in return i have good mobility, on par with warriors, mb slightly better due to jumping on ledges.what you spew out is what usually happens with people that dont play the class they whine about, you play against condi mirage, you get whooped by good condi and you think, kitten mirage has good dueling ability!then different build power mirage kills you, and you think kitten mirage has a good burst damage !, then different build mirage runs away from you and you think kitten it even has amazing mobility!!!!, while in reality those are 3 different builds. cant have it all in 1 thing.

You get pseudo-superspeed from mirage. So no need for chaos traitline. Though, I should probably stop calling it superspeed, since while its twice as good as swiftness, its not quite as good as super-speed. No, you get that just from being mirage, no need to get any other traitlines. So, you still have the ludicrous power shatter burst that can kill almost anyone, mobility that outperforms warriors, and survivability that you get from being, well, a power shatter mirage. And no, you can have it all in one thing. I should know. I used it for a while, with all of these benefits in one build.

superspeed from being mirage -> LOLmobility better then warrior -> LOLshatter burst that can kill almost anyone LOOOL

[Tayga.3192]

@"UNOwen.7132" said:Are we pretending vigor and instant endurance regeneration doesnt exist again? The first reduces the baseline regeneration to 7.5 secondsNatural regen is 5%/s or 10 seconds for one dodge. With vigor, it's 7.5%/s or 6.67 seconds for one dodge.

but then you have 2 seperate ways to regain 50 endurance instantly. One of which has 9 seconds of cooldown. Thief only has 1, and thats a 60 second cooldown stunbreak. So, yeah, a lot easier to regain endurance.Thief has so many evades (and permavigor) they can afford to not take energy sigils, lol.

"no swiftness at all", so were first going to ignore that mirage gets better swiftness on mirage cloak?So you have approximately 7.5% (or 11.2% if you have permavigor, which you don't) uptime, which comes in 0.75 seconds bulks.Don't forget swiftness is already near speedcap out of combat too so you won't get any noticable difference between swiftness and Mirage dodge.

Were also going to ignore the fact that Superior Sigil of Agility gives swiftness?Nearly all sidenoders have way more swiftness than mirages anyway.

Alright, guess if you want results you cant get normally, you need to bend the truth a little. Also, Leap on 10 second, blatant lie, 900 range on infiltrators arrow, I assume youre not familiar with how it works (you move while its midair. It ends up being about 700 range usually, unless porting up ledges). So yeah, I suppose if you bend everything to your whims, even the truth can be false.You can port in Z direction unlike leap. Are we really comparing teleports to leaps?

Looks like you aren't the most knowledgeable when it comes to GW2's mechanics.

Edit: It also looks like you are talking about a Mirage who has Domination, Dueling and Chaos at the same time or something like that.

[bravan.3876]

Why you guys still feed this troll? What he says doesn't even worth any attention. In his world stowing, kiting, los and using environment are no valid plays and for that valid counters. Blocks, stabi, blinding etc are no counterplays. I guess he stands on points double dodge when he sees a target watching in his direction and then runs out of ideas what to do to stay alive because nothing else is a counter than dodge, nothing else are valid and skilled plays. Just dodge nohead! If you can't dodge it you can just go afk and stop fighting the target because you lost already, yes sir that is how the game works

in bronze!Just let him talk to himself !Mirage dodgespeed is only to make Mirage able to move with a dodge like every other class can, it doesn't add any more movement than all other classes have with a dodge. Also claiming Mirage is faster than Thief... i mean rly he can't even get convinced by the obvious, stop wasting your time on him! I guess he is a close friend to the mouse guy complaining about Halos