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Bull's Charge: From decent to absolutely necessary?


Shao.7236

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Remember when it was possible to headshot or blind them? But for most, can still use a wall to stop the skill altogether? Why is it that everything have to gain evade even when it makes the least sense.

It honestly just encourages nothing but power creep when you give skills the must absolutely use because evade frames. Bull's Charge at first was still a great skill when not stupidly used, but now it can be stupidly used rather than consciously having in mind that you're literally charging in a straight line at your target as an unstoppable force, but what would it be like if it was actually an unstoppable force and not some ninja shenanigans, because in my honest opinion I think Stability should have been the buff this skill deserve. In all the following contexts that it can be basically stopped by another AoE of denial while being such an oppressive tool combined but the rest of the CC chain.

Coming from what it used to be, it just feels annoying how tables have turned for something that was good to simply plain meta. It would be nice to keep some counter play in place considering that with the current things Warrior (Mostly Spellbreaker anyway.) have, it would still make the skill great to use, just not braindead to the point where nothing but evades mitigates the huge clunky hitbox that drags around walls, pillars and through some thin obstacles.

I can see why there is an evade, but it still doesn't really feel like it belongs there when the skill could be used in the same fashion with different benefits. Some professions could benefit from the ability to counter play it too with more than just evades, a lot of them already being at the bottom of the current meta anyway.

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@Shao.7236 said:Remember when it was possible to headshot or blind them? But for most, can still use a wall to stop the skill altogether? Why is it that everything have to gain evade even when it makes the least sense.

It honestly just encourages nothing but power creep when you give skills the must absolutely use because evade frames. Bull's Charge at first was still a great skill when not stupidly used, but now it can be stupidly used rather than consciously having in mind that you're literally charging in a straight line at your target as an unstoppable force, but what would it be like if it was actually an unstoppable force and not some ninja shenanigans, because in my honest opinion I think Stability should have been the buff this skill deserve. In all the following contexts that it can be basically stopped by another AoE of denial while being such an oppressive tool combined but the rest of the CC chain.

Coming from what it used to be, it just feels annoying how tables have turned for something that was good to simply plain meta. It would be nice to keep some counter play in place considering that with the current things Warrior (Mostly Spellbreaker anyway.) have, it would still make the skill great to use, just not braindead to the point where nothing but evades mitigates the huge clunky hitbox that drags around walls, pillars and through some thin obstacles.

I can see why there is an evade, but it still doesn't really feel like it belongs there when the skill could be used in the same fashion with different benefits. Some professions could benefit from the ability to counter play it too with more than just evades, a lot of them already being at the bottom of the current meta anyway.

I would agree, bull's charge does everything.you can use it out of combat for mobility, in combat to gapclose, its a LONG stun, amazing damage, dodge and with trait also damage buff, literarly everything packed into 1 ability :D

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@Shao.7236 said:Remember when it was possible to headshot or blind them? But for most, can still use a wall to stop the skill altogether? Why is it that everything have to gain evade even when it makes the least sense.

It honestly just encourages nothing but power creep when you give skills the must absolutely use because evade frames. Bull's Charge at first was still a great skill when not stupidly used, but now it can be stupidly used rather than consciously having in mind that you're literally charging in a straight line at your target as an unstoppable force, but what would it be like if it was actually an unstoppable force and not some ninja shenanigans, because in my honest opinion I think Stability should have been the buff this skill deserve. In all the following contexts that it can be basically stopped by another AoE of denial while being such an oppressive tool combined but the rest of the CC chain.

Coming from what it used to be, it just feels annoying how tables have turned for something that was good to simply plain meta. It would be nice to keep some counter play in place considering that with the current things Warrior (Mostly Spellbreaker anyway.) have, it would still make the skill great to use, just not braindead to the point where nothing but evades mitigates the huge clunky hitbox that drags around walls, pillars and through some thin obstacles.

I can see why there is an evade, but it still doesn't really feel like it belongs there when the skill could be used in the same fashion with different benefits. Some professions could benefit from the ability to counter play it too with more than just evades, a lot of them already being at the bottom of the current meta anyway.

The problem with counterplaying a warrior is that it has the least number of actions of any class. Its actions SHOULD be the hardest to counterplay in all the game because the closer you get to fewer and fewer actions you can take, the more and more severe not being able to benefit from them.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Remember when it was possible to headshot or blind them? But for most, can still use a wall to stop the skill altogether? Why is it that everything have to gain evade even when it makes the least sense.

It honestly just encourages nothing but power creep when you give skills the must absolutely use because evade frames. Bull's Charge at first was still a great skill when not stupidly used, but now it can be stupidly used rather than consciously having in mind that you're literally charging in a straight line at your target as an unstoppable force, but what would it be like if it was actually an unstoppable force and not some ninja shenanigans, because in my honest opinion I think Stability should have been the buff this skill deserve. In all the following contexts that it can be basically stopped by another AoE of denial while being such an oppressive tool combined but the rest of the CC chain.

Coming from what it used to be, it just feels annoying how tables have turned for something that was good to simply plain meta. It would be nice to keep some counter play in place considering that with the current things Warrior (Mostly Spellbreaker anyway.) have, it would still make the skill great to use, just not braindead to the point where nothing but evades mitigates the huge clunky hitbox that drags around walls, pillars and through some thin obstacles.

I can see why there is an evade, but it still doesn't really feel like it belongs there when the skill could be used in the same fashion with different benefits. Some professions could benefit from the ability to counter play it too with more than just evades, a lot of them already being at the bottom of the current meta anyway.

The problem with counterplaying a warrior is that it has the least number of actions of any class. Its actions SHOULD be the hardest to counterplay in all the game because the closer you get to fewer and fewer actions you can take, the more and more severe not being able to benefit from them.

Even before this said change, things we're fine for the most part, this leaves an overtuned impression.

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Yes, let's complain about everything because we can't block/dodge/evade/etc in this spam clown fiesta balance, right? You can interrupt the skill right at the beginning or at its very end, it is not easy but it is possible.

You know what would be healthy for this game and its gameplay? Removing/toning down significantly all this evade/cc/invul/boon spam nonsense that was introduced with HoT elite specs and then amplified with PoF elite specs even more. This way, there would be no need for evade on Bull's Charge and the counterplay would be simpler, everything would be simpler and required more brain at the same time, how ironic. Unfortunately, after all those years and what we have been through, I don't see that happening.

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@cryorion.9532 said:You know what would be healthy for this game and its gameplay? Removing/toning down significantly all this evade/cc/invul/boon spam nonsense that was introduced with HoT elite specs and then amplified with PoF elite specs even more. This way, there would be no need for evade on Bull's Charge and the counterplay would be simpler, everything would be simpler and required more brain at the same time, how ironic. Unfortunately, after all those years and what we have been through, I don't see that happening.

That is a big one. I fully agree, but if you do that, you also need to tone down the damage being dished out. You also need to tone down the amount of condis being dished out. Test it, in scenarios, where these issues play a big role: In WvW. You need the invulns, because the AoE zones in zergfights turn so hot, that you die too easily. You need the evades or blocks, because a single skill from certain classes can one- or two-shot you.

And as to bull charge being necessary? I've never used it, nor do I see many other spellbreakers using it much. Maybe it's more necessary for berserkers; don't see too many of those around. Outside of WvW, I've also never seen use for it personally. I do pretty well without Bull Charge. I'd say it's far from meta for many warrior builds out there.

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@cryorion.9532 said:Yes, let's complain about everything because we can't block/dodge/evade/etc in this spam clown fiesta balance, right? You can interrupt the skill right at the beginning or at its very end, it is not easy but it is possible.

You know what would be healthy for this game and its gameplay? Removing/toning down significantly all this evade/cc/invul/boon spam nonsense that was introduced with HoT elite specs and then amplified with PoF elite specs even more. This way, there would be no need for evade on Bull's Charge and the counterplay would be simpler, everything would be simpler and required more brain at the same time, how ironic. Unfortunately, after all those years and what we have been through, I don't see that happening.

We should just give everyone a stick

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@Obtena.7952 said:The problem with counterplaying a warrior is that it has the least number of actions of any class. Its actions SHOULD be the hardest to counterplay in all the game because the closer you get to fewer and fewer actions you can take, the more and more severe not being able to benefit from them.

Warrior also has the shortest cooldowns (where they apply, so excluding Thief and Revenant to some degree) out of all classes. Just looking at GS, it doesn't have a single skill with 20+ seconds of cooldown with the longest cooldown out of all weapon skills at 25 seconds. In comparison, a Guardian has 30+ seconds on almost half of skill 5's, and the longest cooldown is 45 seconds.

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@Yannir.4132 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The problem with counterplaying a warrior is that it has the least number of actions of any class. Its actions SHOULD be the hardest to counterplay in all the game because the closer you get to fewer and fewer actions you can take, the more and more severe not being able to benefit from them.

Warrior also has the shortest cooldowns (where they apply, so excluding Thief and Revenant to some degree) out of all classes. Just looking at GS, it doesn't have a single skill with 20+ seconds of cooldown with the longest cooldown out of all weapon skills at 25 seconds. In comparison, a Guardian has 30+ seconds on almost half of skill 5's, and the longest cooldown is 45 seconds.

Well they also don't have as many skills to have cooldowns, if they had longer cooldowns there would be 10-15s where they would only be able to spam 1 and maybe 2.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The problem with counterplaying a warrior is that it has the least number of actions of any class. Its actions SHOULD be the hardest to counterplay in all the game because the closer you get to fewer and fewer actions you can take, the more and more severe not being able to benefit from them.

Warrior also has the shortest cooldowns (where they apply, so excluding Thief and Revenant to some degree) out of all classes. Just looking at GS, it doesn't have a single skill with 20+ seconds of cooldown with the longest cooldown out of all weapon skills at 25 seconds. In comparison, a Guardian has 30+ seconds on almost half of skill 5's, and the longest cooldown is 45 seconds.

Well they also don't have as many skills to have cooldowns, if they had longer cooldowns there would be 10-15s where they would only be able to spam 1 and maybe 2.

Yes, that is exactly what I intended to say. Somehow I forgot.

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@TheBravery.9615 said:

@cryorion.9532 said:Yes, let's complain about everything because we can't block/dodge/evade/etc in this spam clown fiesta balance, right? You can interrupt the skill right at the beginning or at its very end, it is not easy but it is possible.

You know what would be healthy for this game and its gameplay? Removing/toning down significantly all this evade/cc/invul/boon spam nonsense that was introduced with HoT elite specs and then amplified with PoF elite specs even more. This way, there would be no need for evade on Bull's Charge and the counterplay would be simpler, everything would be simpler and required more brain at the same time, how ironic. Unfortunately, after all those years and what we have been through, I don't see that happening.

We should just give everyone a stick

That's a silly simplification. Was core gw2 like everyone playing with stick? There will be always a flavor.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:Well, you wont stop a charging bull so with that logic, they added an evade frame :D

Then there's the men in red capes that dance around charging bulls until they're tired. So even bulls irl have counterplay hehe

So what you're saying is....

Just Dodge?

That's right, he didn't really stop the bull, the matador just dodged!

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:Well, you wont stop a charging bull so with that logic, they added an evade frame :D

Then there's the men in red capes that dance around charging bulls until they're tired. So even bulls irl have counterplay hehe

So what you're saying is....

Just Dodge?

Just dodge 4Head

All meme's aside, I think the evade frames from Bull's Charge should be taken out. It can keep its damage and its stun duration, then it would really put the warriors in a focus on utilizing the skill in the most opportune time to punish the other players' sloppy play, or screw ups.I also think though, that in order for this to happen, the overall CC that is currently in the game needs some big time tone downs.

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@Ghos.1326 said:

@"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:Well, you wont stop a charging bull so with that logic, they added an evade frame :D

Then there's the men in red capes that dance around charging bulls until they're tired. So even bulls irl have counterplay hehe

So what you're saying is....

Just Dodge?

Just dodge 4Head

All meme's aside, I think the evade frames from Bull's Charge should be taken out. It can keep its damage and its stun duration, then it would really put the warriors in a focus on utilizing the skill in the most opportune time to punish the other players' sloppy play, or screw ups.I also think though, that in order for this to happen, the overall CC that is currently in the game needs some big time tone downs.

Its more of a call out to whenever someone QQs on another profession's forum about X skill being OP and members of that profession say "Just Dodge."

Every single time.

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@cryorion.9532 said:Yes, let's complain about everything because we can't block/dodge/evade/etc in this spam clown fiesta balance, right? You can interrupt the skill right at the beginning or at its very end, it is not easy but it is possible.

You know what would be healthy for this game and its gameplay? Removing/toning down significantly all this evade/cc/invul/boon spam nonsense that was introduced with HoT elite specs and then amplified with PoF elite specs even more. This way, there would be no need for evade on Bull's Charge and the counterplay would be simpler, everything would be simpler and required more brain at the same time, how ironic. Unfortunately, after all those years and what we have been through, I don't see that happening.

I'd be more happy using it if it had stability than an evade frame to be more thoughtfully used, for the sake of what it implies and have healthy counter play to the already plentiful CC available instead of being such a one sided result, getting relentlessly to the target is how I feel like this skill should be used and evade doesn't allow that against wards/AoE CC denial. Not saying to remove evade from the skill and call it a day. For me this is just a suggestion, it ain't stopping me from enjoying the game. In fact, most of the time I purposefully just get knocked down by it to save an evade because the following isn't really worth doing since there's always a CC or Whirlwind afterwards with no reasons to even try countering, stunbreak and move out of it for things that are much more lethal on the table.

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If you're unable to dodge a 1 sec cast skill that gains nothing from quickness, you're not supposed to play PvP or WvW. If you're out of dodges because you keep wasting em for no reason that's a l2p issue. Given the state of the other classes broken ability's I'd much rather fight a good warrior then some permanently stealthing beginner with a one shot, one trick pony build. But i guess it's just me go a head and complain on Bull Charge it's a free world and there's always the option to change class ones the complainers wins.

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@Counter Terrorist.7421 said:If you're unable to dodge a 1 sec cast skill that gains nothing from quickness, you're not supposed to play PvP or WvW. If you're out of dodges because you keep wasting em for no reason that's a l2p issue. Given the state of the other classes broken ability's I'd much rather fight a good warrior then some permanently stealthing beginner with a one shot, one trick pony build. But i guess it's just me go a head and complain on Bull Charge it's a free world and there's always the option to change class ones the complainers wins.

You also have to consider that saving your dodges just for Bull's Charge is not ideal either. Warriors weapon skills hit pretty hard, especially when swapped to the greatsword (gaining might on crits, GS having a natural heavy hitting mechanic to it) and as well the warrior's burst skills that are up every 5 or so seconds. Those also hit for a pretty decent chunk. Failure to dodge any of the Warrior's other hard hitting skills will get you killed guaranteed. Not to mention if you are hit with a burst skill (it's bound to happen at some point), you are also hit with Magebane Tether, which if I'm not mistaken, grants you might as well every second that the tether is on the target.Also, with Spellbreaker's theme around removing boons, your CCs and removing boons will grant you Attacker's Insight, increasing your overall damage output by increasing your power and ferocity by 45 for 15 seconds. Max stacks of 5, this comes out to be a 225 increase at 5 stacks for both stats.Also considering the Strength trait line, might applied to you grants you 10 more power, so you gain 40 power for each stack of might, and you can hold a lot of might pretty much indefinitely.Also considering Forceful Greatsword grants you 120 power, double this amount when wielding a Greatsword.Then also considering Peak Performance increases the damage output of your attacks by 10% after you use a physical skill.

I agree with you on other things overperforming as well, Holosmith being the big offender. 5k auto chains coupled with quickness is just insane. Holo Leap on a 2s cd being able to deal 3k or more, that's insane. Corona burst able to hit somewhere around 3k 2x evry 6s and also grant stab on hit is kind of crazy too. Honestly, imo, the only decently balanced skill in the forge skill bar is skill 5, dealing only around 2-2.5k while critting (100% chance to do so) coupled with its CC is not too bad. However, because other things are stupidly broken at the moment doesn't really justify why everything else also needs to be a bit unfair. Nerf the things that need proper nerfs, bring things down and not up, and then tweak up from there if necessary.

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@Ghos.1326 said:

@Counter Terrorist.7421 said:If you're unable to dodge a 1 sec cast skill that gains nothing from quickness, you're not supposed to play PvP or WvW. If you're out of dodges because you keep wasting em for no reason that's a l2p issue. Given the state of the other classes broken ability's I'd much rather fight a good warrior then some permanently stealthing beginner with a one shot, one trick pony build. But i guess it's just me go a head and complain on Bull Charge it's a free world and there's always the option to change class ones the complainers wins.

You also have to consider that saving your dodges just for Bull's Charge is not ideal either. Warriors weapon skills hit pretty hard, especially when swapped to the greatsword (gaining might on crits, GS having a natural heavy hitting mechanic to it) and as well the warrior's burst skills that are up every 5 or so seconds. Those also hit for a pretty decent chunk. Failure to dodge any of the Warrior's other hard hitting skills will get you killed guaranteed. Not to mention if you are hit with a burst skill (it's bound to happen at some point), you are also hit with Magebane Tether, which if I'm not mistaken, grants you might as well every second that the tether is on the target.Also, with Spellbreaker's theme around removing boons, your CCs and removing boons will grant you Attacker's Insight, increasing your overall damage output by increasing your power and ferocity by 45 for 15 seconds. Max stacks of 5, this comes out to be a 225 increase at 5 stacks for both stats.Also considering the Strength trait line, might applied to you grants you 10 more power, so you gain 40 power for each stack of might, and you can hold a lot of might pretty much indefinitely.Also considering Forceful Greatsword grants you 120 power, double this amount when wielding a Greatsword.Then also considering Peak Performance increases the damage output of your attacks by 10% after you use a physical skill.

I agree with you on other things overperforming as well, Holosmith being the big offender. 5k auto chains coupled with quickness is just insane. Holo Leap on a 2s cd being able to deal 3k or more, that's insane. Corona burst able to hit somewhere around 3k 2x evry 6s and also grant stab on hit is kind of crazy too. Honestly, imo, the only decently balanced skill in the forge skill bar is skill 5, dealing only around 2-2.5k while critting (100% chance to do so) coupled with its CC is not too bad. However, because other things are stupidly broken at the moment doesn't really justify why everything else also needs to be a bit unfair. Nerf the things that need proper nerfs, bring things down and not up, and then tweak up from there if necessary.

Well given the current state of the game the class is close to unusable in my opinion as for PvP/WvW given the fact that I'm able to do so much better damage that's less telegraphed on other classes while retaining the same sort of sustains as well as spammable evades by using stronger classes. However I've always hated Magebane Tether as i find it cheap to get a free hard CC every 12 sec, the new meta as for warrior relies on this Magebane Tether to sustain at all and be able to ditch out any sort of meaningful damage thanks to the Pinnacle of strength minor trait as well as the might produced by this ability. If that was to be removed the spellbreaker would need some extreme compensations to even be playable. It would reach a new low where i rather play renegade over spellbreaker. But if there ever was anything that had a justified nerf deserved as for spellbreaker ever since the CD increase on Full Tickle it would be Magebane Tether the one ability that would of made sense to nerf years ago.

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such a beginner question, with stances duration halved and adding evade to bullcharge and buffed shake it off for replacing endure pain and berserker stance, we finally achieved something that all warriors have long wanted without breaking balance.an actual working build without stances ( which warrior has been stuck with for more then half decade)

if you ask me, i think more utilities/weapon skills should have some kind of damage mitigation.a stab would just make it a worse version of stomp btw

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:Well, you wont stop a charging bull so with that logic, they added an evade frame :D

Then there's the men in red capes that dance around charging bulls until they're tired. So even bulls irl have counterplay hehe

So what you're saying is....

Just Dodge?

Just dodge 4Head

All meme's aside, I think the evade frames from Bull's Charge should be taken out. It can keep its damage and its stun duration, then it would really put the warriors in a focus on utilizing the skill in the most opportune time to punish the other players' sloppy play, or screw ups.I also think though, that in order for this to happen, the overall CC that is currently in the game needs some big time tone downs.

Its more of a call out to whenever someone QQs on another profession's forum about X skill being OP and members of that profession say "Just Dodge."

Every single time.

Thats not always true. Sometimes you tell them to dodge twice.

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@starlinvf.1358 said:

@"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:Well, you wont stop a charging bull so with that logic, they added an evade frame :D

Then there's the men in red capes that dance around charging bulls until they're tired. So even bulls irl have counterplay hehe

So what you're saying is....

Just Dodge?

Just dodge 4Head

All meme's aside, I think the evade frames from Bull's Charge should be taken out. It can keep its damage and its stun duration, then it would really put the warriors in a focus on utilizing the skill in the most opportune time to punish the other players' sloppy play, or screw ups.I also think though, that in order for this to happen, the overall CC that is currently in the game needs some big time tone downs.

Its more of a call out to whenever someone QQs on another profession's forum about X skill being OP and members of that profession say "Just Dodge."

Every single time.

Thats not always true. Sometimes you tell them to dodge twice.

Able to restore 50% endurance after those double dodge makes it fine to do,considering what you run..offcourse.

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