Why DuoQ Should be Removed for Season 18 and Never Come Back

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

@"NotoriousNaru.1705" said:You literally don't even know what you want. Your OP is fueled by emotions and wanting to witchhunt the big bad plat/legend players for winning more but then you say things like "let solo q die" but if team q were a thing you'd be in here complaining about how good players play with good players and 500-0 you everytime. Maybe make a better argument for team qs instead of wanting to go back to something that doesn't work with the logic of "waa good players win their winrates high fix it anet!" but really those at the top will be at the top no matter what system you put them in.

I think "Why DuoQ should be removed for Season 18 and never come back" is pretty to the point. I want DuoQ and merged queues gone. I made comparisons to SoloQ and TeamQ because i've played both in the context of ranked, and i've come to believe they're both substantially more fair and competitive, although; I could really care less which option we get, so long as we have the choice to play fairly and competitively just like I said.

You can call that getting emotional, I mean; I could say the same to you. I can feel you shaking in your boots, through this text.

The point isn't to start a witch-hunt. There's just absurd winrates across multiple alt accounts on the LB, plus the vast amount of unfair matches for low-mid level players is the motive for wanting more equal matchmaking, and again; that doesn't even have to be done through making ranked SoloQ conquest only.

[NotoriousNaru.1705]

@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

@"NotoriousNaru.1705" said:You literally don't even know what you want. Your OP is fueled by emotions and wanting to witchhunt the big bad plat/legend players for winning more but then you say things like "let solo q die" but if team q were a thing you'd be in here complaining about how good players play with good players and 500-0 you everytime. Maybe make a better argument for team qs instead of wanting to go back to something that doesn't work with the logic of "waa good players win their winrates high fix it anet!" but really those at the top will be at the top no matter what system you put them in.

I think "Why DuoQ should be removed for Season 18 and never come back" is pretty to the point. I want DuoQ and merged queues gone. I made comparisons to SoloQ and TeamQ because i've played both in the context of ranked, and i've come to believe they're both substantially more fair and competitive, although; I could really care less which option we get, so long as we have the choice to play fairly and competitively just like I said.

You can call that getting emotional, I mean; I could say the same to you. I can feel you shaking in your boots, through this text.

The point isn't to start a witch-hunt. There's just absurd winrates across multiple alt accounts on the LB, plus the vast amount of unfair matches for low-mid level players is the motive for wanting more equal matchmaking, and again; that doesn't even have to be done through making ranked SoloQ conquest only.

I don't think you're very bright. I have tried to show a pleb the light but have failed. Good day!

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

OP isn't (nor is anyone?) saying to eliminate duos. Just not to mix them with solos who don't want the imbalances merged queue creates. Not everyone has the luxury of a reliable duo (in fact, I suspect the vast majority don't), so soloq, along with the clown fiesta it can be, is their only option. Throwing duos into that mix generally makes things worse for all but the duo. Population and queue times aside, what's the problem with separate queues and leaderboards?

[BadMed.3846]

Once again, mostly the top players are upset with this suggestion as it will take away their ability to abuse the matchmaking system in their favour. Small group will again avoid each other and farm lower tier players at odd hours. Please get rid of duo queue altogether and let these players move on to other games.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

Duo should be removed at rank 1650 and above. The top 50 dont need the crutch of coms and a friend to maintain there title. If they do they obviously dont deserve that spot.This is a team based game 5v5. My honest option is, there should be a 5 man que since this is a team based game mode.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

@Ouk.5914 said:imagine.....this post from a gold 2 player is still going! Reach Plat 3 and then come back to this topic as you'll see a completely different point of view by then.

@"VALARMORGHULIS.9173" said:Dude who even in the world is this OP. This entire post is an priori argument, and thus a logical fallacy with poor evidence.

I average Plat2 like I said in the OP. I've pretty much peaked there, and to be fair; I have reached Plat3 several times, but never actually finished there. That's actually where my point of view comes from. Where once, it was exciting to be going head-to-head with a top player; it's become boring now.

When they queue together on alt accounts, the wins mean nothing, and nearly every other player in the match is too low level to constitute a challenge. It feels dirty, and it doesn't feel competitive at all.

See, I don't tie my ego to my rank; so I don't go around flaunting it and pretending like that makes me more entitled to be listened to. I just want a competitive experience, and DuoQ removes that fun.

I could actually be gold 2, and my opinion would be no less valid. I think a gold 2 player's opinion would probably carry more weight than mine even, because they'd be speaking from the point of view of an actual victim.

I gotchu covered with the evidence, but; mind you, I didn't play Season 17, because like I say; the competitive aspect, the fun part of the game has been ruined for me thanks to DuoQ.(If any of the links don't work, copy and paste into the URL and that should fix.)

Rank Season 16: https://imgur.com/xmtMGI5

Title to go with: https://imgur.com/mti9loU

Questionable winrates this season: https://imgur.com/eomgmUX

And here's some actual testimonies from victims this season, some with proof and developer responses:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/83854/how-does-top-10-player-appear-in-gold-1-matchhttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/80419/what-is-up-with-the-matchmakerhttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/82636/p1-with-no-duo-vs-l1-duo

If ranked duo Q goes away—I am one of those top tier players that will 100% quit the game.

If they do not start implementing strategies that encourage playing conquest how it was meant to be played within the next few months—I’m going to quit the game.

I’m talking about like 5 man Q’s seperate from solo ranked with a team leaderboard, and rewards that are scaled up from MaT rewards.

Solo Q is cancer. It’s absolute cancer. It makes playing ranked pointless because you’re basically rolling dice. No human being wants to take risks that are predicated on chance. That’s what ranked solo Q is.

I'll reiterate that the argument is only to remove DuoQ and merged queues. I don't go on to mention that the game should be SoloQ only, but I do make a few comparisons, so I see how you might arrive at that conclusion.

Honestly, I agree with you. Just having the option to queue solo separate from the more coordinated option to play with friends would be perfect.

[Elvarazsollak.5193]

Allow any combination of teams. Let users opt-in to queues (team of 2 3 4 or 5)

Examples:

1. while match a team of 3 only with a team of 3, also include in the matching process all teams of 2 and individuals who opted in to the team of 3 queue.
2. Individual opted in to team of 2 and 3 queues so he'll be matched with solo players and teams of 2/3
3. You're in a team of 3 and your team opted in to 4 and 5 queues so you can be matched against a team of 5 with 2 solo players or a team of 2 who also opted in to the team 5 queueetc.

If you do not like the odds against teams, you can solo only and wait until there'll be 9 other solo player available.

[Sampson.2403]

Not being able to make teams or ATLEAST duo Q in a "competitive ranked" environment doesn't make any sense at all. Why this is even debatable baffles me.

Like, you gotta be crazy to solo que and try to climb rank. You're leaving so much up to chance of the match maker. It's like playing a slot machine (without the free booze).

I mean, i always solo que, but that's because i just like to play the game. But i totally understand why anyone whose competitive wants to team with AT LEAST one other person. (I think they should just allow 5 man que tho).

The reason that i push for duo/team que as a solo player is because i think it's the only way this game mode will ever grow 9n population. Hell, if there were actually a competitive scene here other than the few top guys id probably get more serious about this game and pwn all you fools ?

[nativity.3057]

When DuoQ was available, people complained, so DuoQ was removed.When DuoQ was disabled, people complained, so DuoQ was reinstated.Now we are full circle.

PvP devs must be slamming their heads on their tables reading the forums.

[Crab Fear.1624]

There is only one solution.

I'm convinced.

Allow party sizes 1 - 5.

Those are called teams.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

@"Sampson.2403" said:Not being able to make teams or ATLEAST duo Q in a "competitive ranked" environment doesn't make any sense at all. Why this is even debatable baffles me.

I mean, i always solo que, but that's because i just like to play the game. But i totally understand why anyone whose competitive wants to team with AT LEAST one other person. (I think they should just allow 5 man que tho).

The reason that i push for duo/team que as a solo player is because i think it's the only way this game mode will ever grow 9n population. Hell, if there were actually a competitive scene here other than the few top guys id probably get more serious about this game and pwn all you fools ?

DuoQ would be more competitive in the context of a 2v2 arena, but when you merge high-ranked DuoQs with SoloQ players you remove a lot of competition in general by giving them an inherent advantage over SoloQ players in both matchmaking and coordination.

Like, you gotta be crazy to solo que and try to climb rank. You're leaving so much up to chance of the match maker. It's like playing a slot machine (without the free booze).

Climbing SoloQ is definitely doable. I've always done it, and you just said you do as well. I don't think it being harder is necessarily a bad thing, as ranked isn't meant to be easy.

In the context of a slot machine, merged queues make ranked easy mode; akin to a PvE farm. It's like playing a slot machine where the first two reels are already fixed in place to the jackpot symbol.

[sephiroth.4217]

@"yanniell.1236" said:Separated teamQ and SoloQ is the way to go. Anything else is just people asking for easy wins.

There's no place for a merged queue in an individual leaderboard. That is just stupid.

on one hand theres players who say "easy wins"... on the other hand is game developers with facts and data saying premades lost more than they won...

[Sampson.2403]

@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

@"Sampson.2403" said:Not being able to make teams or ATLEAST duo Q in a "competitive ranked" environment doesn't make any sense at all. Why this is even debatable baffles me.

I mean, i always solo que, but that's because i just like to play the game. But i totally understand why anyone whose competitive wants to team with AT LEAST one other person. (I think they should just allow 5 man que tho).

The reason that i push for duo/team que as a solo player is because i think it's the only way this game mode will ever grow 9n population. Hell, if there were actually a competitive scene here other than the few top guys id probably get more serious about this game and pwn all you fools ?

DuoQ would be more competitive in the context of a 2v2 arena, but when you merge high-ranked DuoQs with SoloQ players you remove a lot of competition in general by giving them an inherent advantage over SoloQ players in both matchmaking and coordination.

Like, you gotta be crazy to solo que and try to climb rank. You're leaving so much up to chance of the match maker. It's like playing a slot machine (without the free booze).

Climbing SoloQ is definitely doable. I've always done it, and you just said you do as well. I don't think it being harder is necessarily a bad thing, as ranked isn't meant to be easy.

In the context of a slot machine, merged queues make ranked easy mode; akin to a PvE farm. It's like playing a slot machine where the first two reels are already fixed in place to the jackpot symbol.

Here's the thing though. You SHOULD have an advantage for duoquing. The game mode SHOULD ENCOURAGE people to want to make friends, organize/practice as a group and progress TOGETHER. The name of this game is guildwars, not solowars.

Right now ranked is such a toxic environment right now because you're forced to competete for a ranking that heavily relies on the performance of your teammates, whom every game, are complete strangers.

Hehe, i can tell that at this point that you're not going to be convinced otherwise, and it's all good, i really have no dog in this fight, except that i think whatever chance this game mode has left of growing relies on promoting team play, not solo queing with 4 strangers.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

@Sampson.2403 said:Here's the thing though. You SHOULD have an advantage for duoquing. The game mode SHOULD ENCOURAGE people to want to make friends, organize/practice as a group and progress TOGETHER. The name of this game is guildwars, not solowars.

Right now ranked is such a toxic environment right now because you're forced to competete for a ranking that heavily relies on the performance of your teammates, whom every game, are complete strangers.

If you want to encourage people to get invested and make friends, throwing DuoQ'd legends in with golds and silvers seems like a pretty terrible way to accomplish that. That's why merged queues are such a travesty and need to go.

If queues were split, everyone would be guaranteed the same level of coordination; which would satisfy people looking to get invested in organizing teams, while not stepping all over the lower ranks and SoloQ farmers to do so. It removes the advantage Merged DuoQ provides to make them(or any size team really) more competitive by matching them up against similarly structured teams that are actually likely to provide some sort of competitive challenge.

Hehe, i can tell that at this point that you're not going to be convinced otherwise, and it's all good, i really have no dog in this fight, except that i think whatever chance this game mode has left of growing relies on promoting team play, not solo queing with 4 strangers.

You don't have anything to convince me of. I think the game should promote Teamplay just like you do, I just tend to think that throwing those who do in with a bunch of lower-rated SoloQ players who don't or can't isn't the way to do it. You can hardly learn, and get competitively invested in a game when you're constantly matched with people hundreds of levels above you(Unless they're cheating the matchmaker by playing on a smurf, in which case; even worse) who are also playing at a higher level of coordination with you. That's why merged queues are terrible, and an absolute drain on the population.

A split queue doesn't remove the option to queue with friends, it only gives people the choice to be matched against similarly coordinated teams. Giving people that option I think would do well for retention when it comes to the population, and maybe; possibly, growth. Taking that choice away leaves us right where we're at now, and I don't think the population is going up by any means. If it were, I wouldn't have even started this discussion; because some games actually have populations or matchmakers that can support merged queues, but Gw2 doesn't.

[shadowpass.4236]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but how would you separate Duo Que and Solo Que when teams consist of five players?

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@"yanniell.1236" said:Separated teamQ and SoloQ is the way to go. Anything else is just people asking for easy wins.

There's no place for a merged queue in an individual leaderboard. That is just stupid.

on one hand theres players who say "easy wins"... on the other hand is game developers with facts and data saying premades lost more than they won...

Yeah, a lot of people have forgotten what happened at the end of 5 man ques. They implemented a system at the end that was essentially adding 100 average rating or so onto a 5 man team to factor in the advantage they had through voice chats and general coordination. So a 1500 team would actually be queued as 1600s. Having a 5 man team of 1500 players going against a group of 1600 solos sounds pretty damn fair to me. In fact, the 5 man probably has the disadvantage in that situation.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

@shadowpass.4236 said:Maybe I'm missing something here, but how would you separate Duo Que and Solo Que when teams consist of five players?

For the side of DuoQs: 2v2 Deathmatch, 2v2 KOTH. The option to play with friends doesn't have to be restricted to just one person either. You could easily have 3v3, 4v4 conquest, TeamQ, GvG.

SoloQ to me seems pretty built for conquest alone, but I could be wrong; because such a thing has never existed in this game. It could also exist as the classic way to play ranked if/when people don't have the option to play with their buds. Plus, if you really want to give people a reason to queue either; it would probably be beneficial to not have them always be the same gamemode everytime every season.

EDIT: Besides unranked TDM. Whoops.

What I think would be really interesting personally, and what would make me invested in playing with a team; is seeing all those modes and whatever people can come up with on rotation every season. Sort of like Overwatch did, with TDM and CTF being given their own cycling ranked queues.

[Lighter.5631]

this game is unplayable soloq at high ranks, none of these guys would reach 1800 with soloq.unless you are duo Q, the game would just be unbearable with your enemies having 2 high ranks and fillers while your entire team is fillers because there's almost no player base in this gameeither you wait for your friend to play with you or solo guys will just get frustrated having to fight people who only duoQ and quit.this system is also bad for returning player/new player for the player base it has now.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@"yanniell.1236" said:Separated teamQ and SoloQ is the way to go. Anything else is just people asking for easy wins.

There's no place for a merged queue in an individual leaderboard. That is just stupid.

on one hand theres players who say "easy wins"... on the other hand is game developers with facts and data saying premades lost more than they won...

Yeah, a lot of people have forgotten what happened at the end of 5 man ques. They implemented a system at the end that was essentially adding 100 average rating or so onto a 5 man team to factor in the advantage they had through voice chats and general coordination. So a 1500 team would actually be queued as 1600s. Having a 5 man team of 1500 players going against a group of 1600 solos sounds pretty kitten fair to me. In fact, the 5 man probably has the disadvantage in that situation.

Merged queues of any size are bad for the competitive aspect of ranked regardless. If the matchmaker throws in 1700 Duos with golds and silves, I don't think for a second it could competently handle more than that. You'd just be amplifying every issue by 3x, 4x, or 5x depending on how high you let it go.

Not to mention, people would just be right back to smurfing on alts; since there's no cap on how far apart two ratings can queue together. You have to account for the top% and the things they've already done with merged queues when considering merged TeamQs.

Wouldn't you also prefer some sense of identity? If TeamQ was split from SoloQ, you could have leaderboards exclusively for teams rather than individuals. If you merge the two, it's just the same as it is right now, but worse for matchmaking/competition.

And wintrading/griefing/idling too. Classic wintrading revolved around getting someone to throw on the other team whether through money, influence, whatever. If you put 5 people in 1 party against 5 people in no parties, it becomes very easy for the SoloQ team to have 1 player throw and simultaneously boost 5 players on the opposite team.

On the other end, if TeamQ were split to full on 5v5 there would be no wintrading/griefing, you could have a leaderboard exclusively for teams, and be guaranteed similar coordination, rather than leaving it all to chance.

[Lighter.5631]

unless you have a big player base like say overwatch, where if you teamQ with your highest rated member being 1900, you will always fight against an enemy team with an average rating of 1900. so in rating it favors soloq.

but here you have a player base of 10 players at any given time, so the rating will be forcefully dragged because of the limited number of good players and the teamq of good players will always beat soloq good player.

[sephiroth.4217]

@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@"yanniell.1236" said:Separated teamQ and SoloQ is the way to go. Anything else is just people asking for easy wins.

There's no place for a merged queue in an individual leaderboard. That is just stupid.

on one hand theres players who say "easy wins"... on the other hand is game developers with facts and data saying premades lost more than they won...

Yeah, a lot of people have forgotten what happened at the end of 5 man ques. They implemented a system at the end that was essentially adding 100 average rating or so onto a 5 man team to factor in the advantage they had through voice chats and general coordination. So a 1500 team would actually be queued as 1600s. Having a 5 man team of 1500 players going against a group of 1600 solos sounds pretty kitten fair to me. In fact, the 5 man probably has the disadvantage in that situation.

Merged queues of any size are bad for the competitive aspect of ranked regardless. If the matchmaker throws in 1700 Duos with golds and silves, I don't think for a second it could competently handle more than that. You'd just be amplifying every issue by 3x, 4x, or 5x depending on how high you let it go.

Not to mention, people would just be right back to smurfing on alts; since there's no cap on how far apart two ratings can queue together. You have to account for the top% and the things they've already done with merged queues when considering merged TeamQs.

Wouldn't you also prefer some sense of identity? If TeamQ was split from SoloQ, you could have leaderboards exclusively for teams rather than individuals. If you merge the two, it's just the same as it is right now, but worse for matchmaking/competition.

And wintrading/griefing/idling too. Classic wintrading revolved around getting someone to throw on the other team whether through money, influence, whatever. If you put 5 people in 1 party against 5 people in no parties, it becomes very easy for the SoloQ team to have 1 player throw and simultaneously boost 5 players on the opposite team.

On the other end, if TeamQ were split to full on 5v5 there would be no wintrading/griefing, you could have a leaderboard exclusively for teams, and be guaranteed similar coordination, rather than leaving it all to chance.

then turn off team queue at plat 1.problem solved, everybody is happy.

not that it matters, we could all agree on a system that makes us all happy but in the end Anet will implement the exact opposite out of spite or do more of the same, nothing.

[OutOfOrder.3719]

@Eddbopkins.2630 said:Duo should be removed at rank 1650 and above. The top 50 dont need the crutch of coms and a friend to maintain there title. If they do they obviously dont deserve that spot.This is a team based game 5v5. My honest option is, there should be a 5 man que since this is a team based game mode.

I second this. Only the 5 man que should be a separate ladder and Guild vs Guild 5 vs 5. A new game mode utilizing the current pvp system but with a completely separate ladder from solo que.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

@sephiroth.4217 said:then turn off team queue at plat 1.problem solved, everybody is happy.

not that it matters, we could all agree on a system that makes us all happy but in the end Anet will implement the exact opposite out of spite or do more of the same, nothing.

Well... I mean, yeah!

So long as they don't use it as an excuse to bring us back here a few seasons later. It was an admittedly pretty convenient excuse to say it wasn't fair back before Season 13. This is why we can't have nice things.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"Multicolorhipster.9751"

I originally wrote this in response to your last response to me. But I took it way too far so I made it into its own thread:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/84209/solo-duo-que-vs-5-man-team-que-ultimate-discussion-rant/p1?new=1

[megilandil.7506]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@"yanniell.1236" said:Separated teamQ and SoloQ is the way to go. Anything else is just people asking for easy wins.

There's no place for a merged queue in an individual leaderboard. That is just stupid.

on one hand theres players who say "easy wins"... on the other hand is game developers with facts and data saying premades lost more than they won...

Duo Q is easy wins but for real cordinated players with real experience in playing coordinated and bringing sinergetic builds and coms, numbers are made counting all players, and in low ranks are a lot of persons who read the easy win thing and try to get in to that train and bring some random friend without none coordination, none sinergy and none playing together experience, or worse they duoed with some random guy from the previous match that they won

EDIT: ¿and if they try for ranked solo ladder the RA thing of gw1? winers stay , losers get disbanded