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Scourges Sand Savant needs to be reworked.


Demon Puppet.6873

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@Nimon.7840 said:

@"Methuselah.4376" said:Yes, let's remove Sand Savant because it's a good trait to use for WvW. Nevermind that in other game modes, unless you're running healer, it's pretty much useless. Yes let's do that, because someone died to it in WvW a couple of times, nevermind it is one of the most telegraphed means of attacks in game whereas Meteor Shower is super easy to miss while you're in a 20 vs 20 fight. While we're on it, let's remove stealth from the game, and clones, and invulnerability.

Wasn't there a thread "remove everything, give everyone a stick"?XD

Ye I think so XD But this just proves the point that no matter what happens, there will always be people complaining. When Reaper got CLEAR and SIGNIFICANT buffs, this forum was full of people moaning how it's a hidden nerf and how Reaper is now unplayable and how their build is ruined so the game is garbage now. You just can't win.

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@God.2708 said:

@"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

You can't drastically reduce the damage, really, as a Scourge sometimes has to 1v1 like anyone else.You can reduce the target cap, but that really only solves the problem of facing ONE scourge. How is that helpful vs a squad running 10 of them?

Of course you can reduce the target cap. The entire issue isn't the scourges damage. It's the fact they can hit more people than anyone else layered into the other benefits (support, boon stripping, etc). This vastly improves the odds of your spike focusing and downing players, and applies way more pressure on a squad when the squad is having to heal them 5 people at a time. You are burning twice the healing/condi clearing CDs compared to your other DPS classes. If I am facing 10 scourges I would much rather them be hitting 60 people on a bomb rather than 100. That means my 25 man squad is taking 2 hits on average when spiked instead of 4.

Imagine eles meteor shower hitting 5 people per rock instead of 3 with a trait. Do you think there'd be an elementalist alive that would take something else in any situation that isn't a 1v1?

Your math works. I guess what I am wondering though, is exactly how many players are getting hit by a typical bomb? Like in the example we are discussing, 10 scourges bombing the same spot, you say it's better then that only 60 players are being hit instead of 100. But we both know you don't have 100 players on your side, and we also know that not every member of your squad is being hit by this bomb.

So if we use a typical 50 v 50 engagement, and 10 scourges land their bomb in the same spot, they would hit..what...15 players? 20? Do you see my point? Even if we restrict the target cap (again, not really arguing against it), nothing would change. Those 10 scourges had the potential of hitting 60 players instead of 100, but still hit the same 15/20 opponents.

This is on the high end of course, on the smaller scale, the change would be far more noticeable. If you're facing off against a group that only has 2 necros, currently they could still collectively hit 20 of your players.

I hope what I'm thinking is getting across here. I don't disagree with the idea, I just don't think this is going to be a solution that works; I refer again to the last time ANET decided to nerf Scourge by gutting Dhuumfire...that saw a drop in the Scourge population for about, what, a week? So if reducing the target cap makes sense, it has to be accompanied by something else, and I have no clue what that should be. We can't destroy the spec (as much as players might like that idea) but what can you fix when the issue is the design?

My perspective is probably very different from many of you, as I only started after PoF, so the Scourge meta is all I've known. When I first started WvW it drove me crazy (for lulz I dug up a post I made about it: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/33041/what-is-happening-to-me-in-wvw) as at the time I didn't have any class experience other than Guardian or Ranger, but these days I'm just used to it. I was kind of bummed that our last event wasn't an actual Core only spec event, as I wanted to see what a squad would do without Scourge, FB, etc. But /shrug.

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I do not think nerfing the hit cap of Scourge will solve every issue. But right now Scourge is hitting way too many people with ease. You say its so easy to see the skill compared to Eles meteor. But you are forgetting that in a Fight-Guild type scenario Weaver will not even be usedand if they do they WILL see the Meteor will get out of it ASAP. Plus Meteor isnt stripping boons causing CC's and lethal condis. Also the big Shade can just be placed again immediately. There is a reason the GvG scene restricts comps to 4 scourges per comp. No other class is restricted. It is because of Sand Savant. It is used too quickly hitting too many players. I ONLY play Scourge/Necro I love this class to death. But I see an issue with it. This would reduce how crazy impact-full it is with such ease. So I apologize if my talk of a balance scares you or offends you.

Only other solution along with this trait nerf idea is to reduce the power scaling of Shade skills by 15-25%.

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@"Demon Puppet.6873" said:300 radius 10 target cap is way too strong. It makes Core Necro and Reaper completely obsolete. Taking away this would force every Scourge in WvW to learn how to use triple shade and make the other 2 grandmaster traits actually useful. They are both strong but in comparison to flat out hitting 10 players in such a big radius they fall flat.

My suggestion is to rework Sand Savant to do something such as "Any barrier left over on allies turns into healing" So if you gave an ally 6k barrier and it does not get damaged away it now turns into health. This suggestion is something realistic and in the theme of the Scourge especially since the first two top row Scourge traits have to do with Barrier. This change would not take along time to create since Sanctuary Runes are already in the game and do a similar effect. This would also make WvW fights less chaotic.Just my suggestion after having over 4k hours on Scourge :)

Big issue with any changes - in pvp/wvw the cooldown is INCREASED and in pve it's decreased, so you actually get less Uptime on shades than if you don't take the trait, Plus it only effects 5 things not 10 unless you mean 5 ally 5 enemy.

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@Demon Puppet.6873 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I was led to believe that, overall, Sand Savant is DPS loss because otherwise you could stack all 3 shades on the same target?

I use Sand Savant simply because I greatly dislike ground target reticules, and having to manage more than 1 would have been a deal breaker for me and the spec.

You would think that but how quickly you need to cast certain abilities + movement it ends up being a huge dps loss. More so because SS makes the area you personally affect also be 300 radius. PvE would obviously be a different story. But the time it takes to casting each shade you will be very far behind. Unless the enemies you are fighting are just standing still.

EDIT: But how easily you can hit 10 players is actually why the GvG scene puts a cap on how many Scourges are allowed in a 15 man comp.

Fair enough. But I disagree with the notion that this one GM trait makes Reaper or Core obsolete. Well, if you're playing core, you're hardcore Necro anyways, so skill will trump everything else, but I see Reaper plenty of the time in WvW, OW and PvE.

The radius of the shade makes it more of problem in WvW, but is it not then offset by the 100% increase in cooldown? (one of the reasons I hate playing Scourge in WvW)

Scourges AoE radius atm is the biggest problem with WvW. I ONLY play Scourge and I will tell you that Core necro and reaper are both obsolete in Fight-guild / GvG comps. The Cool down increase helped some but not enough. Stealthing up pushing on a group, place your shade on their left or right flank then pressing F2-F5 is way too much damage affecting too many people. This change would make the scourges only hit 6 players in this scenario. They can potentially hit 12 if they cast all the shades but that takes precious time that you wont have in these types of fights.

So you mean If you are In a team where scourge shines because it is a support/damage hybrid it is OP?

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  • 3 weeks later...

Power reaper is sickening not sure what you’re talking about lol!!! You’re doing it wrong if you think reaper is any weaker than scourge.Scourge doesn’t need more nerfing I have seen many reaper pwning in PvP and kill scourge 1 on 1.Maybe you’re living in your fantasy pve world and feels strong lol~~~ go try 1 vs 1 against good reaper on your 4K hr scourge and repost your thoughts. ;)

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@Tom Hsiao.9705 said:Power reaper is sickening not sure what you’re talking about lol!!! You’re doing it wrong if you think reaper is any weaker than scourge.Scourge doesn’t need more nerfing I have seen many reaper pwning in PvP and kill scourge 1 on 1.Maybe you’re living in your fantasy pve world and feels strong lol~~~ go try 1 vs 1 against good reaper on your 4K hr scourge and repost your thoughts. ;)

Sorry but, what rank are you?

Necro isn't a 1v1 char.Necro is a teamfighter. If you kill one in a 1v1. Whatever, it doesn't show anything.

If played well, you can easily kill scourge or reaper,Kill scourge with reaper and kill reaper with scourge.

Reaper is weaker than scourge in some regards:-no healing received in shroud-only one big burst-not much sustained dmg-less boon corrupts

Reaper pros:-one big burst-one big hard ccCan get unlockable attacks (but isn't used in meta builds)-slightly better mobility than scourge

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@Aeolus.3615 said:Imo the issue is how there’s way to much people stack them in hope of no effort wins due how game overloaded with aoe expecially from scourges.

Altough scrounges could have some better trade off besides low mobility....

Better tradeoffs?-low mobility-bad self sustain-weak to ranged attacks-weak to cc-no evade frames-no invulns

Isn't that more than enough?That's way more than any other class has

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@Nimon.7840 said:

@Tom Hsiao.9705 said:Power reaper is sickening not sure what you’re talking about lol!!! You’re doing it wrong if you think reaper is any weaker than scourge.Scourge doesn’t need more nerfing I have seen many reaper pwning in PvP and kill scourge 1 on 1.Maybe you’re living in your fantasy pve world and feels strong lol~~~ go try 1 vs 1 against good reaper on your 4K hr scourge and repost your thoughts. ;)

Sorry but, what rank are you?

Necro isn't a 1v1 char.Necro is a teamfighter. If you kill one in a 1v1. Whatever, it doesn't show anything.

If played well, you can easily kill scourge or reaper,Kill scourge with reaper and kill reaper with scourge.

Reaper is weaker than scourge in some regards:-no healing received in shroud-only one big burst-not much sustained dmg-less boon corrupts

Reaper pros:-one big burst-one big hard ccCan get unlockable attacks (but isn't used in meta builds)-slightly better mobility than scourge

I’m platinum rank so maybe you’re speaking higher rank?? Or perhaps lower rank??But as platinum player (and I generally rank with my necro)I do reaper and scourge and I find them equally strong both have their own strength. I wouldn’t say one is stronger than other.And I can kill people 1 vs 1 on scourge and my reaper too so saying scourge is only team player just shows your lack of knowledge on the class or your ability to PvP...

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A> @Nimon.7840 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:Imo the issue is how there’s way to much people stack them in hope of no effort wins due how game overloaded with aoe expecially from scourges.

Altough scrounges could have some better trade off besides low mobility....

Better tradeoffs?-low mobility-bad self sustain-weak to ranged attacks-weak to cc-no evade frames-no invulns

Isn't that more than enough?That's way more than any other class has

Aren’t some of those actually available in optional traits or utilities??

I would not say scourge has bad sustain..

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I still think that the issue player have with the scourge isn't sand savant but the fact that the shade package is an all purpose package instead of being a specialized package. In essence, shade skills do everything at the same time and it's toxic.

The scourge's shades' purpose is to increase the area covered by the scourge's ability and they do it well. It's meaningless to complain about sand savant because if it didn't exist you'd still complain for the same underlying reason: the coverage of the scourge.

What can be complained about is the fairness of the trade-off. The necromancer trade it's shroud for the shade mechanism however it's difficult to say that there is any trade-off for the extended coverage that shades provide. In fact, shade skills being all purpose instant skills improve a lot the ease and efficacity with which you can spend life force as a necromancer.

In my opinion there is a need to recenter the shade skills (F2-F5) toward support by shaving off the damage loaded into them. F2 to F5 shouldn't proc F1 effect on use and F5 should be geared toward support instead of damage. 2 change to fix shade skills:

  • F1 no longer proc on other F skills
  • F5 now grant barrier, pulse weakness (1-2s) and you can't be critically hit for the duration of the skill (damage and cripple all removed). Herald of sorrow give you the possibility to make it a damaging skill.
  • Dhuumfire no longer need it's ICD in scourge.
  • F5 no longer need an increased CD in PvP/WvW.
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@Aeolus.3615 said:A> @Nimon.7840 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:Imo the issue is how there’s way to much people stack them in hope of no effort wins due how game overloaded with aoe expecially from scourges.

Altough scrounges could have some better trade off besides low mobility....

Better tradeoffs?-low mobility-bad self sustain-weak to ranged attacks-weak to cc-no evade frames-no invulns

Isn't that more than enough?That's way more than any other class has

Aren’t some of those actually available in optional traits or utilities??

I would not say scourge has bad sustain..

Compared to other classes?You have to use bloodmagic in spvp (which sucks for dmg)And you still do not have as much sustain as other classes do without sacrificing that much dmg.

But I don't think spvp is a good gamemode. Too many toxic kids, that aren't aware of the map or cannot play around certain classes.(Platin + is better but almost impossible to reach as solo necro player in my opinion)

That's why I play wvw, where you are free in stat choices (which is the biggest flaw in spvp for me as a fan of theory crafting)And there necro is just a punching bag for any other class, unless you just play much better than your opponent.

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@Demon Puppet.6873 said:300 radius 10 target cap is way too strong. It makes Core Necro and Reaper completely obsolete.

Better suggestion... Make core viable first ;) Once thats done then we can say scourge actually makes it obsolete... needs to first be viableReaper is kind of viable at the moment but i don't specifically think scourge is better than it. Scourge does counter reaper only because it uses a ton of boon corrupt which can often completely screw a reaper over.

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@Nimon.7840 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:Imo the issue is how there’s way to much people stack them in hope of no effort wins due how game overloaded with aoe expecially from scourges.

Altough scrounges could have some better trade off besides low mobility....

Better tradeoffs?-low mobility-bad self sustain-weak to ranged attacks-weak to cc-no evade frames-no invulns

Isn't that more than enough?That's way more than any other class has

Your idea of trade offs is all wrongScourges trade off is that it no longer has a personal shroud in exchange for more zone control with its shade skillsReapers trade off is the loss of ranged pressure attacks for strong bursty melee cleaving attacks for increased life force cost.

Necro has always beenLow in mobilityUnable to use invulnsLimited in evade framesBeen week to CCBad in self sustainregardless of what elite spec you take.

The things you listed are not really trade offs because they exists on all forms of the necromancer. If they always are there then its not a trade off. A trade off is getting somethings for the loss of somethings.

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@Voltekka.2375 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I was led to believe that, overall, Sand Savant is DPS loss because otherwise you could stack all 3 shades on the same target?

I use Sand Savant simply because I greatly dislike ground target reticules, and having to manage more than 1 would have been a deal breaker for me and the spec.

You would think that but how quickly you need to cast certain abilities + movement it ends up being a huge dps loss. More so because SS makes the area you personally affect also be 300 radius. PvE would obviously be a different story. But the time it takes to casting each shade you will be very far behind. Unless the enemies you are fighting are just standing still.

EDIT: But how easily you can hit 10 players is actually why the GvG scene puts a cap on how many Scourges are allowed in a 15 man comp.

Fair enough. But I disagree with the notion that this one GM trait makes Reaper or Core obsolete. Well, if you're playing core, you're hardcore Necro anyways, so skill will trump everything else, but I see Reaper plenty of the time in WvW, OW and PvE.

The radius of the shade makes it more of problem in WvW, but is it not then offset by the 100% increase in cooldown? (one of the reasons I hate playing Scourge in WvW)

Scourges AoE radius atm is the biggest problem with WvW. I ONLY play Scourge and I will tell you that Core necro and reaper are both obsolete in Fight-guild / GvG comps. The Cool down increase helped some but not enough. Stealthing up pushing on a group, place your shade on their left or right flank then pressing F2-F5 is way too much damage affecting too many people. This change would make the scourges only hit 6 players in this scenario. They can potentially hit 12 if they cast all the shades but that takes precious time that you wont have in these types of fights.

Obsolete. hm. so is...Core guard, dhMirage, core mesmerHolo, core engiRanger, druid, soulbeastCore rev, renegadeCore warr, berserkerCore ele (weaver is meta), support temp (who would pick support temp over scrapper or FB, on a GvG? But it has more uses than other classes)core thief, deadeye

Whats your point? Every expac brings more powercreep, which is what keeps the company running (sales).

Yet YoY sales numbers keep dropping pretty steadily since HoT.And Ironically, core thief is the strongest of all thief setups right now, and soulbeast is still very strong.PvE "metas" don't exist and is a heavily-misused word; it's optimization and numbers calculation and will swing per-patch depending on what is nerfed or buffed by numbers and numbers alone.

The sell-powercreep formula isn't a winning one. When will people realize this?

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@Djamonja.6453 said:Reaper does more damage than scourge in the types of fights you are talking about, they just don't strip boons as well.

reaper does strip more boons in bursts tho, just not over time.

anyway I think the solution is to have the damage/ offense traits centered around the shade and the barrier/ support traits centered around the necro.

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I was led to believe that, overall, Sand Savant is DPS loss because otherwise you could stack all 3 shades on the same target?

I use Sand Savant simply because I greatly dislike ground target reticules, and having to manage more than 1 would have been a deal breaker for me and the spec.

You would think that but how quickly you need to cast certain abilities + movement it ends up being a huge dps loss. More so because SS makes the area you personally affect also be 300 radius. PvE would obviously be a different story. But the time it takes to casting each shade you will be very far behind. Unless the enemies you are fighting are just standing still.

EDIT: But how easily you can hit 10 players is actually why the GvG scene puts a cap on how many Scourges are allowed in a 15 man comp.

Fair enough. But I disagree with the notion that this one GM trait makes Reaper or Core obsolete. Well, if you're playing core, you're hardcore Necro anyways, so skill will trump everything else, but I see Reaper plenty of the time in WvW, OW and PvE.

The radius of the shade makes it more of problem in WvW, but is it not then offset by the 100% increase in cooldown? (one of the reasons I hate playing Scourge in WvW)

Scourges AoE radius atm is the biggest problem with WvW. I ONLY play Scourge and I will tell you that Core necro and reaper are both obsolete in Fight-guild / GvG comps. The Cool down increase helped some but not enough. Stealthing up pushing on a group, place your shade on their left or right flank then pressing F2-F5 is way too much damage affecting too many people. This change would make the scourges only hit 6 players in this scenario. They can potentially hit 12 if they cast all the shades but that takes precious time that you wont have in these types of fights.

Obsolete. hm. so is...Core guard, dhMirage, core mesmerHolo, core engiRanger, druid, soulbeastCore rev, renegadeCore warr, berserkerCore ele (weaver is meta), support temp (who would pick support temp over scrapper or FB, on a GvG? But it has more uses than other classes)core thief, deadeye

Whats your point? Every expac brings more powercreep, which is what keeps the company running (sales).

Yet YoY sales numbers keep dropping pretty steadily since HoT.And Ironically, core thief is the strongest of all thief setups right now, and soulbeast is still very strong.PvE "metas" don't exist and is a heavily-misused word; it's optimization and numbers calculation and will swing per-patch depending on what is nerfed or buffed by numbers and numbers alone.

The sell-powercreep formula isn't a winning one. When will people realize this?

WvW is unplayable without PoF, cause pf elite specs and mount. Pve meta exists whether you like it or not, as chrono has been heavily nerfed and ppl turn to renegade/fb/scourge as support and damage more and more, weaver top dps, etc. Sure you can play anything, yet people want maximum efficiency. Since it is a numbers game, PoF deliver with its powercreep. Lastly, all mmorpgs' sales decline over time. It is natural, when no new content is released.

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@Voltekka.2375 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I was led to believe that, overall, Sand Savant is DPS loss because otherwise you could stack all 3 shades on the same target?

I use Sand Savant simply because I greatly dislike ground target reticules, and having to manage more than 1 would have been a deal breaker for me and the spec.

You would think that but how quickly you need to cast certain abilities + movement it ends up being a huge dps loss. More so because SS makes the area you personally affect also be 300 radius. PvE would obviously be a different story. But the time it takes to casting each shade you will be very far behind. Unless the enemies you are fighting are just standing still.

EDIT: But how easily you can hit 10 players is actually why the GvG scene puts a cap on how many Scourges are allowed in a 15 man comp.

Fair enough. But I disagree with the notion that this one GM trait makes Reaper or Core obsolete. Well, if you're playing core, you're hardcore Necro anyways, so skill will trump everything else, but I see Reaper plenty of the time in WvW, OW and PvE.

The radius of the shade makes it more of problem in WvW, but is it not then offset by the 100% increase in cooldown? (one of the reasons I hate playing Scourge in WvW)

Scourges AoE radius atm is the biggest problem with WvW. I ONLY play Scourge and I will tell you that Core necro and reaper are both obsolete in Fight-guild / GvG comps. The Cool down increase helped some but not enough. Stealthing up pushing on a group, place your shade on their left or right flank then pressing F2-F5 is way too much damage affecting too many people. This change would make the scourges only hit 6 players in this scenario. They can potentially hit 12 if they cast all the shades but that takes precious time that you wont have in these types of fights.

Obsolete. hm. so is...Core guard, dhMirage, core mesmerHolo, core engiRanger, druid, soulbeastCore rev, renegadeCore warr, berserkerCore ele (weaver is meta), support temp (who would pick support temp over scrapper or FB, on a GvG? But it has more uses than other classes)core thief, deadeye

Whats your point? Every expac brings more powercreep, which is what keeps the company running (sales).

Yet YoY sales numbers keep dropping pretty steadily since HoT.And Ironically, core thief is the strongest of all thief setups right now, and soulbeast is still very strong.PvE "metas" don't exist and is a heavily-misused word; it's optimization and numbers calculation and will swing per-patch depending on what is nerfed or buffed by numbers and numbers alone.

The sell-powercreep formula isn't a winning one. When will people realize this?

WvW is unplayable without PoF, cause pf elite specs and mount. Pve meta exists whether you like it or not, as chrono has been heavily nerfed and ppl turn to renegade/fb/scourge as support and damage more and more, weaver top dps, etc. Sure you can play anything, yet people want maximum efficiency. Since it is a numbers game, PoF deliver with its powercreep. Lastly, all mmorpgs' sales decline over time. It is natural, when no new content is released.

Yeah. And people know this. Thus why I said "The sell-powercreep formula isn't a winning one."

As far as PvE not having a meta... that's what I said. Look up what a metagame actually is defined as. There is no actual meta in PvE because the game-state is dependent entirely on optimizations and numerical derivations at the discretion of the game host with no player agency. Optimized PvE is a solvable problem. That's the opposite of what having a metagame entails.

And further, this is solely enforced by the community, as the obsession with optimization extends to reducing time/increasing statistical reliability/ease of execution. All PvE can still be done by any combination of builds, and yet, we don't see it embraced. They could nerf all the classes to have the exact same optimal benchmarks, and people would still create optimizations welcoming/kicking specific classes and the likes for the sole reason some are harder to play and statistically likely to have lower numbers for that reason.

PvE optimization is just a constant cat-and-mouse of patches and number-crunching in response to them. All of the nuance and differentiation between combat modes literally defies the point of even trying to balance, and is why the original idea of not having a composed PvE scene in the game was a good one from both a game design and player community health perspectives. The only way to achieve "balance" is through uniformity, which comes at the cost of diversity and the x-factor of "fun" from the most possible perspectives. Rock-Paper-Scissors is perfectly-balanced on paper, but not very entertaining for these reasons.

With the PvP modes' balance being based almost entirely on the nuances of player-to-player interaction and the confines of mechanics presented--where factors like mobility, range, etc. are extremely important--the idea of an actual pursuit of "balanced gameplay" with tradeoffs and mechanical/systems differentiation simply makes sense.

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I want to throw in my 2c The reason is because every class has every type of role (DPS/support/healer/Tank/offensive support) These are the main holy trinity of roles in the usual but balancing it is hell because some classes combine 2 or more elements of those roles.

You cant have a class that is master dps and master offensive/defensive supports ala mesmers with chronomancers in the past with enough offensive and defensive supports combined with huge dps, its just unbalanced. I personally think they should make elite specs into the holy trinity and nerf them to make them fit that role in some way or another, while keeping them unique, and why not? we got a tree of skills and wow has a skill tree to make classes into dps or into tanks why not GW2? the reason i quit GW2 is because i hate being pigeon holed into a kitten job i don't want and being mediocre. Oh you want to play scourge? sorry you have to be support or nothing well gee wonder why people are quitting.

Also i am waiting for a 3rd kitten separation of modes for WVW. There needs to be a total of 3 different modes separated its a lot of work for them but it will help in my opinion with the problems since people complain about scourges stacking and boon corrupting, well it isn't a problem in pve and i don't like pve getting nerfed because of pvp, and shouldn't.

I think if we saw a third split maybe scourge could get some dps buffs for pve and not be forced into support or power. I'd love for scourge to go back into being condi bomber but the WVW mod will see huge complaints about it.

I also think its understandable for people to want dps specs to be competitive. I do think that having the exact same dps doesn't have to be a thing. I will be ok as long as we get some other improvements in traits to survive in pve and maybe be a little more useful to the group with reaper, or if it stays selfish, then to fix the broken traits in death magic and others so necro has some sustain it can get from them and maybe offer something else to the group to be not entirely selfish.

I keep wondering about the thing someone said which was something regarding the sustain abilities for necro being on weapons, because ele has sustain abilities on their weapon in water and earth element and it has no problem, so why can't necro have some too? why cant we have decent amount of sustain while sacrificing little dps? i mean its not fair eles in water trait get dps trait that helps them sustain and do dmg and necro is expected to go full glass with reaper.

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@Axl.8924 said:I want to throw in my 2c The reason is because every class has every type of role (DPS/support/healer/Tank/offensive support) These are the main holy trinity of roles in the usual but balancing it is hell because some classes combine 2 or more elements of those roles.

You cant have a class that is master dps and master offensive/defensive supports ala mesmers with chronomancers in the past with enough offensive and defensive supports combined with huge dps, its just unbalanced. I personally think they should make elite specs into the holy trinity and nerf them to make them fit that role in some way or another, while keeping them unique, and why not? we got a tree of skills and wow has a skill tree to make classes into dps or into tanks why not GW2? the reason i quit GW2 is because i hate being pigeon holed into a kitten job i don't want and being mediocre. Oh you want to play scourge? sorry you have to be support or nothing well gee wonder why people are quitting.

Also i am waiting for a 3rd kitten separation of modes for WVW. There needs to be a total of 3 different modes separated its a lot of work for them but it will help in my opinion with the problems since people complain about scourges stacking and boon corrupting, well it isn't a problem in pve and i don't like pve getting nerfed because of pvp, and shouldn't.

I think if we saw a third split maybe scourge could get some dps buffs for pve and not be forced into support or power. I'd love for scourge to go back into being condi bomber but the WVW mod will see huge complaints about it.

I also think its understandable for people to want dps specs to be competitive. I do think that having the exact same dps doesn't have to be a thing. I will be ok as long as we get some other improvements in traits to survive in pve and maybe be a little more useful to the group with reaper, or if it stays selfish, then to fix the broken traits in death magic and others so necro has some sustain it can get from them and maybe offer something else to the group to be not entirely selfish.

I keep wondering about the thing someone said which was something regarding the sustain abilities for necro being on weapons, because ele has sustain abilities on their weapon in water and earth element and it has no problem, so why can't necro have some too? why cant we have decent amount of sustain while sacrificing little dps? i mean its not fair eles in water trait get dps trait that helps them sustain and do dmg and necro is expected to go full glass with reaper.

The beauty of gw2 is there is no trinity thing. You can be whatever you want and don’t need to rely on tank or healer...so why on earth they’d ruin it lol. If you want trinity you need to play something else like WOW Ff14 or whatever that’s out there

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@Tom Hsiao.9705 said:

@Axl.8924 said:I want to throw in my 2c The reason is because every class has every type of role (DPS/support/healer/Tank/offensive support) These are the main holy trinity of roles in the usual but balancing it is hell because some classes combine 2 or more elements of those roles.

You cant have a class that is master dps and master offensive/defensive supports ala mesmers with chronomancers in the past with enough offensive and defensive supports combined with huge dps, its just unbalanced. I personally think they should make elite specs into the holy trinity and nerf them to make them fit that role in some way or another, while keeping them unique, and why not? we got a tree of skills and wow has a skill tree to make classes into dps or into tanks why not GW2? the reason i quit GW2 is because i hate being pigeon holed into a kitten job i don't want and being mediocre. Oh you want to play scourge? sorry you have to be support or nothing well gee wonder why people are quitting.

Also i am waiting for a 3rd kitten separation of modes for WVW. There needs to be a total of 3 different modes separated its a lot of work for them but it will help in my opinion with the problems since people complain about scourges stacking and boon corrupting, well it isn't a problem in pve and i don't like pve getting nerfed because of pvp, and shouldn't.

I think if we saw a third split maybe scourge could get some dps buffs for pve and not be forced into support or power. I'd love for scourge to go back into being condi bomber but the WVW mod will see huge complaints about it.

I also think its understandable for people to want dps specs to be competitive. I do think that having the exact same dps doesn't have to be a thing. I will be ok as long as we get some other improvements in traits to survive in pve and maybe be a little more useful to the group with reaper, or if it stays selfish, then to fix the broken traits in death magic and others so necro has some sustain it can get from them and maybe offer something else to the group to be not entirely selfish.

I keep wondering about the thing someone said which was something regarding the sustain abilities for necro being on weapons, because ele has sustain abilities on their weapon in water and earth element and it has no problem, so why can't necro have some too? why cant we have decent amount of sustain while sacrificing little dps? i mean its not fair eles in water trait get dps trait that helps them sustain and do dmg and necro is expected to go full glass with reaper.

The beauty of gw2 is there is no trinity thing. You can be whatever you want and don’t need to rely on tank or healer...so why on earth they’d ruin it lol. If you want trinity you need to play something else like WOW Ff14 or whatever that’s out there

That was true till they introduced druid.You will always have a tank, healer and DPS in harder content.

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@Tom Hsiao.9705 said:

@Axl.8924 said:I want to throw in my 2c The reason is because every class has every type of role (DPS/support/healer/Tank/offensive support) These are the main holy trinity of roles in the usual but balancing it is hell because some classes combine 2 or more elements of those roles.

You cant have a class that is master dps and master offensive/defensive supports ala mesmers with chronomancers in the past with enough offensive and defensive supports combined with huge dps, its just unbalanced. I personally think they should make elite specs into the holy trinity and nerf them to make them fit that role in some way or another, while keeping them unique, and why not? we got a tree of skills and wow has a skill tree to make classes into dps or into tanks why not GW2? the reason i quit GW2 is because i hate being pigeon holed into a kitten job i don't want and being mediocre. Oh you want to play scourge? sorry you have to be support or nothing well gee wonder why people are quitting.

Also i am waiting for a 3rd kitten separation of modes for WVW. There needs to be a total of 3 different modes separated its a lot of work for them but it will help in my opinion with the problems since people complain about scourges stacking and boon corrupting, well it isn't a problem in pve and i don't like pve getting nerfed because of pvp, and shouldn't.

I think if we saw a third split maybe scourge could get some dps buffs for pve and not be forced into support or power. I'd love for scourge to go back into being condi bomber but the WVW mod will see huge complaints about it.

I also think its understandable for people to want dps specs to be competitive. I do think that having the exact same dps doesn't have to be a thing. I will be ok as long as we get some other improvements in traits to survive in pve and maybe be a little more useful to the group with reaper, or if it stays selfish, then to fix the broken traits in death magic and others so necro has some sustain it can get from them and maybe offer something else to the group to be not entirely selfish.

I keep wondering about the thing someone said which was something regarding the sustain abilities for necro being on weapons, because ele has sustain abilities on their weapon in water and earth element and it has no problem, so why can't necro have some too? why cant we have decent amount of sustain while sacrificing little dps? i mean its not fair eles in water trait get dps trait that helps them sustain and do dmg and necro is expected to go full glass with reaper.

The beauty of gw2 is there is no trinity thing. You can be whatever you want and don’t need to rely on tank or healer...so why on earth they’d ruin it lol. If you want trinity you need to play something else like WOW Ff14 or whatever that’s out there

GW2 is a mess and I rarely stick around sometimes coming back mainly because I enjoy ele and necro gameplay. The problem is that classes are seriously imbalanced.

nerfs to classes in pve because of WVW anybody? scourge nerfs? chronomancer nerfs and core Mesmer nerfs?

You don-t have to have 100% one class be of the holy trinity rather I think building to that role or a hybrid which GW2 does. The problem is that scourge im not sure if it fits the role yet as a viable support or no and its def shoehorned which is why I can-t stand ANET I can-t stand being shoehorned into a role I might not want. lets say I want condi scourge to be a thing, then why cant I build towards it for endgame? ANET keeps nerfing scourge and people are still crying for more nerfs. When will it be ok? when scourge no longer has any damage anymore and is useless in WVW and pve? When will we stop complaining about mesmers? when they can no longer do dmg and buff?

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