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Trade-offs for Mirage -- What Will It Be? What Would You Like It to Be?


Virtuality.8351

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I heard there must be 15 characters to be regarded as a legitimate post.

Jokes aside, I am pretty worried about this one particularly after the latest nerf hammer hit on Chronomancer. Maybe it'd be better if we discuss this and maybe get the attention of the balance team than just sit and wait for the hammer to drop again.

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Predictions:

  • modified shatters to compensate for "improved" auto attacks (ambushes). No idea what F1-3 will become but I would like to see them either be debuff or indirectly boosting player ambush damage and utility. Eg, F1 could provide increased damage to your next ambush attack with increased threshold for each clone shattered, but in turn F1 does less upfront damage or something. F3 could do shorter duration daze and then give eg 1s daze to your next ambush attack. F2 could be essentially Riddle of Sand built in.
  • F4 likely becoming "Desert Distortion". Eg 1s distortion like Continuum Split, and all clones become mirrors (for the record I prefer normal Distortion, but given what has happened with Continuum Split it is extremely likely F4 is going to get a similar style of change on Mirage).

Possibilities:

  • Removal of self shatter, but this depends if they decide to restore it to Chrono or not. This could go several ways, and either way it would need some deep thinking about how clones work and how they could/should work.

Hopeful:

  • IH becoming minor trait so they can balance the whole spec around it.
  • together with rethinking of what the top/bottom/middle line, adept/master/grandmaster tiers should be.
  • moving most of the damage onto player ambush and reducing it from clone ambush. Player ambush should be impactful and rewarded for landing, Clone ambush should be the "red herring" that opponents should learn to spot the player ambush from the clone ambushes thus avoiding most of the damage. Additionally player ambush damage should be further increased by x amount for each active clone, so existence of clones indirectly increases damage by buffing the player's ambush - increasing direct damage and maybe adding condi stacks etc.

Overall I would like maintain and further encourage the playstyle of being able to use mind tricks, blend with clones etc.

I understand that the Grandmaster Major traits are intended to be three choices for dodge modification analagous to Daredevil's final tier traits - however I think it is shown over the last two years that while it might appear satisfying on paper, there are so many issues with the Grandmaster Major traits that this whole concept of final tier dodge modification needs to be rethought.

Mirage isn't similar to Daredevil - the obvious fact being the existence of clones - and the design of the entire trait line should be looked at to better support this.

I think it goes without saying that Speed of Sand is a joke as a separate trait - should be integrated with baseline mechanic of Mirage Cloak.

Could have it as Top line being Utility (Self Deception, new Mirror trait, Dune Cloak), Middle line being Defensive (regen, protection, Elusive Mind), Bottom Line being Offensive (Riddle of Sand, Axe trait, new GM major trait).

The whole final tier of traits should be changed and reintegrated - build around the thematic deceptive foundation of clones dodging with and performing the same attack (ambush) as the player.

I think I just want to emphasise certain thematic and mechanical points of how I would like Mirage to function - so at least if anyone from Anet reading this forum can keep some overarching vision for Mirage in mind, that is more unique compared with Core and Chrono. Encourage and focus on the following key features:

  • ambush as a foundation mechanic. Make player ambush hit hard and be rewarded for landing. Use Shatters and Clones to further boost player ambush damage/cc through synergetic combos.
  • deception with clones as foundation gameplay. Through making IH a minor trait with clones evading and performing same auto/ambush as player, and use of detargets, and maybe some new clone shuffle ability in shatters. Mirage should be all about emphasising "becoming the clone", and then hitting hard with ambush. To add to this I'd love stow weapon to also do the same for all active clones.
  • ability to put evade frames wherever you want, including while cced or during actions. I actually believe this is an interesting system that forces opponents to change how they plan to land their burst.

Edit - overall I hope they learn from Chrono and don't make similar mistakes with Mirage - as I'm hoping for Chrono to get some buffs next patch once they see they went too far. Of course ideally I'd like to see a deep change to how clones work, but I am not expecting anything on that scale.Edit 2 - adding some things from a post below to provide more explanation.

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@"Curunen.8729" said:I'd strongly recommend to delete your comment (parts with savage nerfs that would kill mirage that as they did with chrono) as you give them ideas. Bad dodge is enough but double trade-off like chrono, pls no.Also "stronger" autoattacks is a myth, they are like autos, without IH they are real garbage,especially scepter/axe

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@praqtos.9035 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:I'd strongly recommend to delete your comment (parts with savage nerfs that would kill mirage that as they did with chrono) as you give them ideas. Bad dodge is enough but double trade-off like chrono, pls no.Also "stronger" autoattacks is a myth, they are like autos, without IH they are real garbage,especially scepter/axe

I said "improved" autos - which ambush attacks are objectively.

And I did say wanting player ambush to be made properly impactful - shifting damage away from clones - making player ambush actually hit hard so you are rewarded for landing it. And making IH a minor trait - building the entire spec around it both for thematic and gameplay/balance reasons.

It seems clear they want Core to be the old school standard shatter spec with most powerful shatters, and given Mirage has ambush it is no stretch of the imagination to anticipate shatters being changed to take this into account. F1-F4 on Mirage will be changed at some point, very likely next patch, I would bet coin on it. The question is how should they be changed, and why. Eg F4 - of course I love and prefer the ability to get 4s uninterrupted invuln to secure stomps/resses etc. But given what they did to Continuum Split on Chrono, I would be extremely suprised if Mirage retains that ability.

It's kind of denial to not expect Anet to do similar treatment for Mirage as they did for Chrono, so I'm going to leave the post up. It is important to at least discuss with the hope they realise that Chrono was nerfed too far, and think deeply about the implications of removal of Illusionary Persona among other things.

Much hinges on two possibilities:

  • return Illusionary Persona to Chrono (and by extension not remove it from Mirage in the first place)
  • change how clones work

I have no idea which of these two is going to happen - suffice to say one of them should happen because Chrono currently does not play well enough.

On the other hand I haven't said anything about dodge when cced - and funnily enough think this is an interesting feature for Mirage that should remain as a primary benefit to the spec.

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@"Curunen.8729" said:

I said "improved" autos - which ambush attacks are objectively.

And I did say wanting player ambush to be made properly impactful - shifting damage away from clones - making player ambush actually hit hard so you are rewarded for landing it. And making IH a minor trait - building the entire spec around it both for thematic and gameplay/balance reasons.

It seems clear they want Core to be the old school standard shatter spec with most powerful shatters, and given Mirage has ambush it is no stretch of the imagination to anticipate shatters being changed to take this into account. F1-F4 on Mirage will be changed at some point, very likely next patch, I would bet coin on it. The question is how should they be changed, and why. Eg F4 - of course I love and prefer the ability to get 4s uninterrupted invuln to secure stomps/resses etc. But given what they did to Continuum Split on Chrono, I would be extremely suprised if Mirage retains that ability.

It's kind of denial to not expect Anet to do similar treatment for Mirage as they did for Chrono, so I'm going to leave the post up. It is important to at least discuss with the hope they realise that Chrono was nerfed too far, and think deeply about the implications of removal of Illusionary Persona among other things.

Much hinges on two possibilities:

  • return Illusionary Persona to Chrono (and by extension not remove it from Mirage in the first place)
  • change how clones work

I have no idea which of these two is going to happen - suffice to say one of them should happen because Chrono currently does not play well enough.

On the other hand I haven't said anything about dodge when cced - and funnily enough think this is an interesting feature for Mirage that should remain as a primary benefit to the spec.

Ah come on Curunen, you know VERY well that they take nerfs suggestions and implement them very fast, but any buffs suggestions they forget to place them in patches and just toss them in the garbage can xDPlease don't give them ideas, even though the reality they will probably kill mirage and will kill me with it.

After all I am against this tradeoff thing that they came up with out of nowehre, its like it is their way of nerfing everything that almost everyone have aka the expansions so they can introduce new expansion with new OP elites so people have to buy it.

There is class ehm ehm I will not mention, that its core is stronger than its elites in most of the situations, they can add tradeoff to its core xD

Jokes aside I am truly against the tradeoffs for any class (Specially with the time they take between each patch)

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@Heartpains.7312 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:

I said "improved" autos - which ambush attacks are objectively.

And I did say wanting player ambush to be made properly impactful - shifting damage away from clones - making player ambush actually hit hard so you are rewarded for landing it. And making IH a minor trait - building the entire spec around it both for thematic and gameplay/balance reasons.

It seems clear they want Core to be the old school standard shatter spec with most powerful shatters, and given Mirage has ambush it is no stretch of the imagination to anticipate shatters being changed to take this into account. F1-F4 on Mirage will be changed at some point, very likely next patch, I would bet coin on it. The question is how should they be changed, and why. Eg F4 - of course I love and prefer the ability to get 4s uninterrupted invuln to secure stomps/resses etc. But given what they did to Continuum Split on Chrono, I would be extremely suprised if Mirage retains that ability.

It's kind of denial to not expect Anet to do similar treatment for Mirage as they did for Chrono, so I'm going to leave the post up. It is important to at least discuss with the hope they realise that Chrono was nerfed too far, and think deeply about the implications of removal of Illusionary Persona among other things.

Much hinges on two possibilities:
  • return Illusionary Persona to Chrono (and by extension not remove it from Mirage in the first place)
  • change how clones work

I have no idea which of these two is going to happen - suffice to say one of them should happen because Chrono currently does not play well enough.

On the other hand I haven't said anything about dodge when cced - and funnily enough think this is an interesting feature for Mirage that should remain as a primary benefit to the spec.

Ah come on Curunen, you know VERY well that they take nerfs suggestions and implement them very fast, but any buffs suggestions they forget to place them in patches and just toss them in the garbage can xDPlease don't give them ideas, even though the reality they will probably kill mirage and will kill me with it.

After all I am against this tradeoff thing that they came up with out of nowehre, its like it is their way of nerfing everything that almost everyone have aka the expansions so they can introduce new expansion with new OP elites so people have to buy it.

There is class ehm ehm I will not mention, that its core is stronger than its elites in most of the situations, they can add tradeoff to its core xD

Jokes aside I am truly against the tradeoffs for any class (Specially with the time they take between each patch)

I'm fully anticipating Mirage sadly getting the Chrono treatment next patch, with or without our input. :(

And expecting this being preparation either for new elites or some weird dual classing system (based on the wvw skill swap test) either during or after LW5.

I think I just want to emphasise certain thematic and mechanical points of how I would like Mirage to function - so at least if anyone from Anet reading this forum can keep some overarching vision for Mirage in mind, that is more unique compared with Core and Chrono. Encourage and focus on the following key features:

  • ambush as a foundation mechanic. Make player ambush hit hard and be rewarded for landing. Use Shatters and Clones to further boost player ambush damage/cc through synergetic combos.
  • deception with clones as foundation gameplay. Through making IH a minor trait with clones evading and performing same auto/ambush as player, and use of detargets, and maybe some new clone shuffle ability in shatters. Mirage should be all about emphasising "becoming the clone", and then hitting hard with ambush. To add to this I'd love stow weapon to also do the same for all active clones.
  • ability to put evade frames wherever you want, including while cced or during actions. I actually believe this is an interesting system that forces opponents to change how they plan to land their damage.

This would be sufficiently different from Core which is all about standard shatter nuke gameplay, and Chrono which should be about aoe support (but they need to do more work with Chrono shatters to make them suitably unique).

I will edit my post regarding shatters for Mirage - I'm hoping for something like more debuff oriented or synergy with ambushes:

  • for example F1 could provide increased damage to your next ambush attack with increased threshold for each clone shattered, but in turn F1 does less upfront damage or something.

So this increases synergy between shatter and ambush, and doesn't punish the player for blowing all clones and losing damage on a follow up ambush - because majority of damage will be on the player's ambush.

Equally I'd love to see a dynamic ambush damage system where:

  • player ambush damage is increased by x amount for each active clone.So existence of clones indirectly increases damage by buffing the player's ambush further - increasing direct damage and maybe adding a condi stack etc.

For things like Sword or Trident ambush it could function as:

  • player ambush daze/stun is increased by +0.25s for each active clone.Removing the daze/stun from clones but their existence enhances the cc potential of the player's ambush.

All this together should provide synergies where you can do combos boosting say player staff ambush to crit for 3-4k and landing a burst of condi - but the clones themselves not directly applying this damage, they would just provide visual distraction/deception and shatter fuel - so the opponent would have to watch for/line of sight the player's attack.

Edit - I will say of course with Mirage being my favourite class, only character, and pretty much the only reason I play gw2 - it goes without saying that I want it to be left in a good state. So I have quite a vested interest in what happens as I will continue to play it regardless. I edited some of my first post to hopefully make it clearer.To be honest I'm actually more concerned with the audio and visual effects they use for eg new shatters - I love the F1 sound effect on Chrono, but there's always a risk that either the sound or visual animation could be annoying - and this more than anything else would be a huge turn off for me. Aesthetics are largely the reason I choose to use or not use something. xD

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@Curunen.8729 said:

I said "improved" autos - which ambush attacks are objectively.

And I did say wanting player ambush to be made properly impactful - shifting damage away from clones - making player ambush actually hit hard so you are rewarded for landing it. And making IH a minor trait - building the entire spec around it both for thematic and gameplay/balance reasons.

It seems clear they want Core to be the old school standard shatter spec with most powerful shatters, and given Mirage has ambush it is no stretch of the imagination to anticipate shatters being changed to take this into account. F1-F4 on Mirage will be changed at some point, very likely next patch, I would bet coin on it. The question is how should they be changed, and why. Eg F4 - of course I love and prefer the ability to get 4s uninterrupted invuln to secure stomps/resses etc. But given what they did to Continuum Split on Chrono, I would be extremely suprised if Mirage retains that ability.

It's kind of denial to not expect Anet to do similar treatment for Mirage as they did for Chrono, so I'm going to leave the post up. It is important to at least discuss with the hope they realise that Chrono was nerfed too far, and think deeply about the implications of removal of Illusionary Persona among other things.

Much hinges on two possibilities:
  • return Illusionary Persona to Chrono (and by extension not remove it from Mirage in the first place)
  • change how clones work

I have no idea which of these two is going to happen - suffice to say one of them should happen because Chrono currently does not play well enough.

On the other hand I haven't said anything about dodge when cced - and funnily enough think this is an interesting feature for Mirage that should remain as a primary benefit to the spec.

Ah come on Curunen, you know VERY well that they take nerfs suggestions and implement them very fast, but any buffs suggestions they forget to place them in patches and just toss them in the garbage can xDPlease don't give them ideas, even though the reality they will probably kill mirage and will kill me with it.

After all I am against this tradeoff thing that they came up with out of nowehre, its like it is their way of nerfing everything that almost everyone have aka the expansions so they can introduce new expansion with new OP elites so people have to buy it.

There is class ehm ehm I will not mention, that its core is stronger than its elites in most of the situations, they can add tradeoff to its core xD

Jokes aside I am truly against the tradeoffs for any class (Specially with the time they take between each patch)

I'm fully anticipating Mirage sadly getting the Chrono treatment next patch, with or without our input. :(

And expecting this being preparation either for new elites or some weird dual classing system (based on the wvw skill swap test) either during or after LW5.

I think I just want to emphasise certain thematic and mechanical points of how I would like Mirage to function - so at least if anyone from Anet reading this forum can keep some overarching vision for Mirage in mind, that is more unique compared with Core and Chrono. Encourage and focus on the following key features:
  • ambush as a foundation mechanic. Make player ambush hit hard and be rewarded for landing. Use Shatters and Clones to further boost player ambush damage/cc through synergetic combos.
  • deception with clones as foundation gameplay. Through making IH a minor trait with clones evading and performing same auto/ambush as player, and use of detargets, and maybe some new clone shuffle ability in shatters. Mirage should be all about emphasising "becoming the clone", and then hitting hard with ambush. To add to this I'd love stow weapon to also do the same for all active clones.
  • ability to put evade frames wherever you want, including while cced or during actions. I actually believe this is an interesting system that forces opponents to change how they plan to land their damage.

This would be sufficiently different from Core which is all about standard shatter nuke gameplay, and Chrono which should be about aoe support (but they need to do more work with Chrono shatters to make them suitably unique).

I will edit my post regarding shatters for Mirage - I'm hoping for something like more debuff oriented or synergy with ambushes:
  • for example F1 could provide increased damage to your next ambush attack with increased threshold for each clone shattered, but in turn F1 does less upfront damage or something.

So this increases synergy between shatter and ambush, and doesn't punish the player for blowing all clones and losing damage on a follow up ambush - because majority of damage will be on the player's ambush.

Equally I'd love to see a dynamic ambush damage system where:
  • player ambush damage is increased by x amount for each active clone.So existence of clones indirectly increases damage by buffing the player's ambush further - increasing direct damage and maybe adding a condi stack etc.

For things like Sword or Trident ambush it could function as:
  • player ambush daze/stun is increased by +0.25s for each active clone.Removing the daze/stun from clones but their existence enhances the cc potential of the player's ambush.

All this together should provide synergies where you can do combos boosting say player staff ambush to crit for 3-4k and landing a burst of condi - but the clones themselves not directly applying this damage, they would just provide visual distraction/deception and shatter fuel - so the opponent would have to watch for/line of sight the player's attack.

Edit - I will say of course with Mirage being my favourite class, only character, and pretty much the only reason I play gw2 - it goes without saying that I want it to be left in a good state. So I have quite a vested interest in what happens as I will continue to play it regardless. I edited some of my first post to hopefully make it clearer.To be honest I'm actually more concerned with the audio and visual effects they use for eg new shatters - I love the F1 sound effect on Chrono, but there's always a risk that either the sound or visual animation could be annoying - and this more than anything else would be a huge turn off for me. Aesthetics are largely the reason I choose to use or not use something. xD

those dont even HAVE to be shatters, could be clone buffs, f3. your clones dont take damage for x secounds, f2 get bonuses based on number of clones, f1 give clones retaliation and swap position with a clone.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

I said "improved" autos - which ambush attacks are objectively.

And I did say wanting player ambush to be made properly impactful - shifting damage away from clones - making player ambush actually hit hard so you are rewarded for landing it. And making IH a minor trait - building the entire spec around it both for thematic and gameplay/balance reasons.

It seems clear they want Core to be the old school standard shatter spec with most powerful shatters, and given Mirage has ambush it is no stretch of the imagination to anticipate shatters being changed to take this into account. F1-F4 on Mirage will be changed at some point, very likely next patch, I would bet coin on it. The question is how should they be changed, and why. Eg F4 - of course I love and prefer the ability to get 4s uninterrupted invuln to secure stomps/resses etc. But given what they did to Continuum Split on Chrono, I would be extremely suprised if Mirage retains that ability.

It's kind of denial to not expect Anet to do similar treatment for Mirage as they did for Chrono, so I'm going to leave the post up. It is important to at least discuss with the hope they realise that Chrono was nerfed too far, and think deeply about the implications of removal of Illusionary Persona among other things.

Much hinges on two possibilities:
  • return Illusionary Persona to Chrono (and by extension not remove it from Mirage in the first place)
  • change how clones work

I have no idea which of these two is going to happen - suffice to say one of them should happen because Chrono currently does not play well enough.

On the other hand I haven't said anything about dodge when cced - and funnily enough think this is an interesting feature for Mirage that should remain as a primary benefit to the spec.

Ah come on Curunen, you know VERY well that they take nerfs suggestions and implement them very fast, but any buffs suggestions they forget to place them in patches and just toss them in the garbage can xDPlease don't give them ideas, even though the reality they will probably kill mirage and will kill me with it.

After all I am against this tradeoff thing that they came up with out of nowehre, its like it is their way of nerfing everything that almost everyone have aka the expansions so they can introduce new expansion with new OP elites so people have to buy it.

There is class ehm ehm I will not mention, that its core is stronger than its elites in most of the situations, they can add tradeoff to its core xD

Jokes aside I am truly against the tradeoffs for any class (Specially with the time they take between each patch)

I'm fully anticipating Mirage sadly getting the Chrono treatment next patch, with or without our input. :(

And expecting this being preparation either for new elites or some weird dual classing system (based on the wvw skill swap test) either during or after LW5.

I think I just want to emphasise certain thematic and mechanical points of how I would like Mirage to function - so at least if anyone from Anet reading this forum can keep some overarching vision for Mirage in mind, that is more unique compared with Core and Chrono. Encourage and focus on the following key features:
  • ambush as a foundation mechanic. Make player ambush hit hard and be rewarded for landing. Use Shatters and Clones to further boost player ambush damage/cc through synergetic combos.
  • deception with clones as foundation gameplay. Through making IH a minor trait with clones evading and performing same auto/ambush as player, and use of detargets, and maybe some new clone shuffle ability in shatters. Mirage should be all about emphasising "becoming the clone", and then hitting hard with ambush. To add to this I'd love stow weapon to also do the same for all active clones.
  • ability to put evade frames wherever you want, including while cced or during actions. I actually believe this is an interesting system that forces opponents to change how they plan to land their damage.

This would be sufficiently different from Core which is all about standard shatter nuke gameplay, and Chrono which should be about aoe support (but they need to do more work with Chrono shatters to make them suitably unique).

I will edit my post regarding shatters for Mirage - I'm hoping for something like more debuff oriented or synergy with ambushes:
  • for example F1 could provide increased damage to your next ambush attack with increased threshold for each clone shattered, but in turn F1 does less upfront damage or something.

So this increases synergy between shatter and ambush, and doesn't punish the player for blowing all clones and losing damage on a follow up ambush - because majority of damage will be on the player's ambush.

Equally I'd love to see a dynamic ambush damage system where:
  • player ambush damage is increased by x amount for each active clone.So existence of clones indirectly increases damage by buffing the player's ambush further - increasing direct damage and maybe adding a condi stack etc.

For things like Sword or Trident ambush it could function as:
  • player ambush daze/stun is increased by +0.25s for each active clone.Removing the daze/stun from clones but their existence enhances the cc potential of the player's ambush.

All this together should provide synergies where you can do combos boosting say player staff ambush to crit for 3-4k and landing a burst of condi - but the clones themselves not directly applying this damage, they would just provide visual distraction/deception and shatter fuel - so the opponent would have to watch for/line of sight the player's attack.

Edit - I will say of course with Mirage being my favourite class, only character, and pretty much the only reason I play gw2 - it goes without saying that I want it to be left in a good state. So I have quite a vested interest in what happens as I will continue to play it regardless. I edited some of my first post to hopefully make it clearer.To be honest I'm actually more concerned with the audio and visual effects they use for eg new shatters - I love the F1 sound effect on Chrono, but there's always a risk that either the sound or visual animation could be annoying - and this more than anything else would be a huge turn off for me. Aesthetics are largely the reason I choose to use or not use something. xD

those dont even HAVE to be shatters, could be clone buffs, f3. your clones dont take damage for x secounds, f2 get bonuses based on number of clones, f1 give clones retaliation and swap position with a clone.

I'd love to see more unique F skills, though trouble is the need to function with all the core shatter traits. I'm not sure how they could make many of those traits work otherwise.

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@Curunen.8729 said:

I said "improved" autos - which ambush attacks are objectively.

And I did say wanting player ambush to be made properly impactful - shifting damage away from clones - making player ambush actually hit hard so you are rewarded for landing it. And making IH a minor trait - building the entire spec around it both for thematic and gameplay/balance reasons.

It seems clear they want Core to be the old school standard shatter spec with most powerful shatters, and given Mirage has ambush it is no stretch of the imagination to anticipate shatters being changed to take this into account. F1-F4 on Mirage will be changed at some point, very likely next patch, I would bet coin on it. The question is how should they be changed, and why. Eg F4 - of course I love and prefer the ability to get 4s uninterrupted invuln to secure stomps/resses etc. But given what they did to Continuum Split on Chrono, I would be extremely suprised if Mirage retains that ability.

It's kind of denial to not expect Anet to do similar treatment for Mirage as they did for Chrono, so I'm going to leave the post up. It is important to at least discuss with the hope they realise that Chrono was nerfed too far, and think deeply about the implications of removal of Illusionary Persona among other things.

Much hinges on two possibilities:
  • return Illusionary Persona to Chrono (and by extension not remove it from Mirage in the first place)
  • change how clones work

I have no idea which of these two is going to happen - suffice to say one of them should happen because Chrono currently does not play well enough.

On the other hand I haven't said anything about dodge when cced - and funnily enough think this is an interesting feature for Mirage that should remain as a primary benefit to the spec.

Ah come on Curunen, you know VERY well that they take nerfs suggestions and implement them very fast, but any buffs suggestions they forget to place them in patches and just toss them in the garbage can xDPlease don't give them ideas, even though the reality they will probably kill mirage and will kill me with it.

After all I am against this tradeoff thing that they came up with out of nowehre, its like it is their way of nerfing everything that almost everyone have aka the expansions so they can introduce new expansion with new OP elites so people have to buy it.

There is class ehm ehm I will not mention, that its core is stronger than its elites in most of the situations, they can add tradeoff to its core xD

Jokes aside I am truly against the tradeoffs for any class (Specially with the time they take between each patch)

I'm fully anticipating Mirage sadly getting the Chrono treatment next patch, with or without our input. :(

And expecting this being preparation either for new elites or some weird dual classing system (based on the wvw skill swap test) either during or after LW5.

I think I just want to emphasise certain thematic and mechanical points of how I would like Mirage to function - so at least if anyone from Anet reading this forum can keep some overarching vision for Mirage in mind, that is more unique compared with Core and Chrono. Encourage and focus on the following key features:
  • ambush as a foundation mechanic. Make player ambush hit hard and be rewarded for landing. Use Shatters and Clones to further boost player ambush damage/cc through synergetic combos.
  • deception with clones as foundation gameplay. Through making IH a minor trait with clones evading and performing same auto/ambush as player, and use of detargets, and maybe some new clone shuffle ability in shatters. Mirage should be all about emphasising "becoming the clone", and then hitting hard with ambush. To add to this I'd love stow weapon to also do the same for all active clones.
  • ability to put evade frames wherever you want, including while cced or during actions. I actually believe this is an interesting system that forces opponents to change how they plan to land their damage.

This would be sufficiently different from Core which is all about standard shatter nuke gameplay, and Chrono which should be about aoe support (but they need to do more work with Chrono shatters to make them suitably unique).

I will edit my post regarding shatters for Mirage - I'm hoping for something like more debuff oriented or synergy with ambushes:
  • for example F1 could provide increased damage to your next ambush attack with increased threshold for each clone shattered, but in turn F1 does less upfront damage or something.

So this increases synergy between shatter and ambush, and doesn't punish the player for blowing all clones and losing damage on a follow up ambush - because majority of damage will be on the player's ambush.

Equally I'd love to see a dynamic ambush damage system where:
  • player ambush damage is increased by x amount for each active clone.So existence of clones indirectly increases damage by buffing the player's ambush further - increasing direct damage and maybe adding a condi stack etc.

For things like Sword or Trident ambush it could function as:
  • player ambush daze/stun is increased by +0.25s for each active clone.Removing the daze/stun from clones but their existence enhances the cc potential of the player's ambush.

All this together should provide synergies where you can do combos boosting say player staff ambush to crit for 3-4k and landing a burst of condi - but the clones themselves not directly applying this damage, they would just provide visual distraction/deception and shatter fuel - so the opponent would have to watch for/line of sight the player's attack.

Edit - I will say of course with Mirage being my favourite class, only character, and pretty much the only reason I play gw2 - it goes without saying that I want it to be left in a good state. So I have quite a vested interest in what happens as I will continue to play it regardless. I edited some of my first post to hopefully make it clearer.To be honest I'm actually more concerned with the audio and visual effects they use for eg new shatters - I love the F1 sound effect on Chrono, but there's always a risk that either the sound or visual animation could be annoying - and this more than anything else would be a huge turn off for me. Aesthetics are largely the reason I choose to use or not use something. xD

those dont even HAVE to be shatters, could be clone buffs, f3. your clones dont take damage for x secounds, f2 get bonuses based on number of clones, f1 give clones retaliation and swap position with a clone.

I'd love to see more unique F skills, though trouble is the need to function with all the core shatter traits. I'm not sure how they could make many of those traits work otherwise.

tbh core shatter bonuses are useless for the most part anyways. only torment on shatter is any good. could be applied over their attacks, or MB remove IH and make shatters force clones to do ambush, while providing other bonuses depending on the shatter.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

I said "improved" autos - which ambush attacks are objectively.

And I did say wanting player ambush to be made properly impactful - shifting damage away from clones - making player ambush actually hit hard so you are rewarded for landing it. And making IH a minor trait - building the entire spec around it both for thematic and gameplay/balance reasons.

It seems clear they want Core to be the old school standard shatter spec with most powerful shatters, and given Mirage has ambush it is no stretch of the imagination to anticipate shatters being changed to take this into account. F1-F4 on Mirage will be changed at some point, very likely next patch, I would bet coin on it. The question is how should they be changed, and why. Eg F4 - of course I love and prefer the ability to get 4s uninterrupted invuln to secure stomps/resses etc. But given what they did to Continuum Split on Chrono, I would be extremely suprised if Mirage retains that ability.

It's kind of denial to not expect Anet to do similar treatment for Mirage as they did for Chrono, so I'm going to leave the post up. It is important to at least discuss with the hope they realise that Chrono was nerfed too far, and think deeply about the implications of removal of Illusionary Persona among other things.

Much hinges on two possibilities:
  • return Illusionary Persona to Chrono (and by extension not remove it from Mirage in the first place)
  • change how clones work

I have no idea which of these two is going to happen - suffice to say one of them should happen because Chrono currently does not play well enough.

On the other hand I haven't said anything about dodge when cced - and funnily enough think this is an interesting feature for Mirage that should remain as a primary benefit to the spec.

Ah come on Curunen, you know VERY well that they take nerfs suggestions and implement them very fast, but any buffs suggestions they forget to place them in patches and just toss them in the garbage can xDPlease don't give them ideas, even though the reality they will probably kill mirage and will kill me with it.

After all I am against this tradeoff thing that they came up with out of nowehre, its like it is their way of nerfing everything that almost everyone have aka the expansions so they can introduce new expansion with new OP elites so people have to buy it.

There is class ehm ehm I will not mention, that its core is stronger than its elites in most of the situations, they can add tradeoff to its core xD

Jokes aside I am truly against the tradeoffs for any class (Specially with the time they take between each patch)

I'm fully anticipating Mirage sadly getting the Chrono treatment next patch, with or without our input. :(

And expecting this being preparation either for new elites or some weird dual classing system (based on the wvw skill swap test) either during or after LW5.

I think I just want to emphasise certain thematic and mechanical points of how I would like Mirage to function - so at least if anyone from Anet reading this forum can keep some overarching vision for Mirage in mind, that is more unique compared with Core and Chrono. Encourage and focus on the following key features:
  • ambush as a foundation mechanic. Make player ambush hit hard and be rewarded for landing. Use Shatters and Clones to further boost player ambush damage/cc through synergetic combos.
  • deception with clones as foundation gameplay. Through making IH a minor trait with clones evading and performing same auto/ambush as player, and use of detargets, and maybe some new clone shuffle ability in shatters. Mirage should be all about emphasising "becoming the clone", and then hitting hard with ambush. To add to this I'd love stow weapon to also do the same for all active clones.
  • ability to put evade frames wherever you want, including while cced or during actions. I actually believe this is an interesting system that forces opponents to change how they plan to land their damage.

This would be sufficiently different from Core which is all about standard shatter nuke gameplay, and Chrono which should be about aoe support (but they need to do more work with Chrono shatters to make them suitably unique).

I will edit my post regarding shatters for Mirage - I'm hoping for something like more debuff oriented or synergy with ambushes:
  • for example F1 could provide increased damage to your next ambush attack with increased threshold for each clone shattered, but in turn F1 does less upfront damage or something.

So this increases synergy between shatter and ambush, and doesn't punish the player for blowing all clones and losing damage on a follow up ambush - because majority of damage will be on the player's ambush.

Equally I'd love to see a dynamic ambush damage system where:
  • player ambush damage is increased by x amount for each active clone.So existence of clones indirectly increases damage by buffing the player's ambush further - increasing direct damage and maybe adding a condi stack etc.

For things like Sword or Trident ambush it could function as:
  • player ambush daze/stun is increased by +0.25s for each active clone.Removing the daze/stun from clones but their existence enhances the cc potential of the player's ambush.

All this together should provide synergies where you can do combos boosting say player staff ambush to crit for 3-4k and landing a burst of condi - but the clones themselves not directly applying this damage, they would just provide visual distraction/deception and shatter fuel - so the opponent would have to watch for/line of sight the player's attack.

Edit - I will say of course with Mirage being my favourite class, only character, and pretty much the only reason I play gw2 - it goes without saying that I want it to be left in a good state. So I have quite a vested interest in what happens as I will continue to play it regardless. I edited some of my first post to hopefully make it clearer.To be honest I'm actually more concerned with the audio and visual effects they use for eg new shatters - I love the F1 sound effect on Chrono, but there's always a risk that either the sound or visual animation could be annoying - and this more than anything else would be a huge turn off for me. Aesthetics are largely the reason I choose to use or not use something. xD

those dont even HAVE to be shatters, could be clone buffs, f3. your clones dont take damage for x secounds, f2 get bonuses based on number of clones, f1 give clones retaliation and swap position with a clone.

I'd love to see more unique F skills, though trouble is the need to function with all the core shatter traits. I'm not sure how they could make many of those traits work otherwise.

tbh core shatter bonuses are useless for the most part anyways. only torment on shatter is any good. could be applied over their attacks, or MB remove IH and make shatters force clones to do ambush, while providing other bonuses depending on the shatter.

It would be interesting if F skills on Mirage activated ambush attacks for clones - like orders/commands - kind of what I was imagining Mirage would be at the start. But I assume it's such a huge/impractical amount of change to make all shatter traits function with this, and would also require a change of how mirage cloak works that it's extremely unlikely to happen.

Realistically they need to ensure all possible build combos work whether they are good builds or not - making sure things like boonstrip on shatter have an effect when using any elite spec.

Clones gaining mirage cloak with the player is thematic and I strongly want this to stay, along with their ability to at least visually perform the ambush attacks in the same window that the player gets access to their ambush (ie after gaining mirage cloak).

Interestingly a trick if clones ambush damage/utility is shifted to the player, would be that the player could wait a moment for clones to ambush first - perhaps tricking an opponent into dodging the negligable attacks and then towards the end of the skill window activate their ambush which would connect with the opponent. Of course that hinges on player ambushes hitting hard. I think that would be pretty fun with counterplay (ie watch the player and see when they ambush, learn to filter out from clone ambushes).

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@Curunen.8729 said:

I said "improved" autos - which ambush attacks are objectively.

And I did say wanting player ambush to be made properly impactful - shifting damage away from clones - making player ambush actually hit hard so you are rewarded for landing it. And making IH a minor trait - building the entire spec around it both for thematic and gameplay/balance reasons.

It seems clear they want Core to be the old school standard shatter spec with most powerful shatters, and given Mirage has ambush it is no stretch of the imagination to anticipate shatters being changed to take this into account. F1-F4 on Mirage will be changed at some point, very likely next patch, I would bet coin on it. The question is how should they be changed, and why. Eg F4 - of course I love and prefer the ability to get 4s uninterrupted invuln to secure stomps/resses etc. But given what they did to Continuum Split on Chrono, I would be extremely suprised if Mirage retains that ability.

It's kind of denial to not expect Anet to do similar treatment for Mirage as they did for Chrono, so I'm going to leave the post up. It is important to at least discuss with the hope they realise that Chrono was nerfed too far, and think deeply about the implications of removal of Illusionary Persona among other things.

Much hinges on two possibilities:
  • return Illusionary Persona to Chrono (and by extension not remove it from Mirage in the first place)
  • change how clones work

I have no idea which of these two is going to happen - suffice to say one of them should happen because Chrono currently does not play well enough.

On the other hand I haven't said anything about dodge when cced - and funnily enough think this is an interesting feature for Mirage that should remain as a primary benefit to the spec.

Ah come on Curunen, you know VERY well that they take nerfs suggestions and implement them very fast, but any buffs suggestions they forget to place them in patches and just toss them in the garbage can xDPlease don't give them ideas, even though the reality they will probably kill mirage and will kill me with it.

After all I am against this tradeoff thing that they came up with out of nowehre, its like it is their way of nerfing everything that almost everyone have aka the expansions so they can introduce new expansion with new OP elites so people have to buy it.

There is class ehm ehm I will not mention, that its core is stronger than its elites in most of the situations, they can add tradeoff to its core xD

Jokes aside I am truly against the tradeoffs for any class (Specially with the time they take between each patch)

I'm fully anticipating Mirage sadly getting the Chrono treatment next patch, with or without our input. :(

And expecting this being preparation either for new elites or some weird dual classing system (based on the wvw skill swap test) either during or after LW5.

I think I just want to emphasise certain thematic and mechanical points of how I would like Mirage to function - so at least if anyone from Anet reading this forum can keep some overarching vision for Mirage in mind, that is more unique compared with Core and Chrono. Encourage and focus on the following key features:
  • ambush as a foundation mechanic. Make player ambush hit hard and be rewarded for landing. Use Shatters and Clones to further boost player ambush damage/cc through synergetic combos.
  • deception with clones as foundation gameplay. Through making IH a minor trait with clones evading and performing same auto/ambush as player, and use of detargets, and maybe some new clone shuffle ability in shatters. Mirage should be all about emphasising "becoming the clone", and then hitting hard with ambush. To add to this I'd love stow weapon to also do the same for all active clones.
  • ability to put evade frames wherever you want, including while cced or during actions. I actually believe this is an interesting system that forces opponents to change how they plan to land their damage.

This would be sufficiently different from Core which is all about standard shatter nuke gameplay, and Chrono which should be about aoe support (but they need to do more work with Chrono shatters to make them suitably unique).

I will edit my post regarding shatters for Mirage - I'm hoping for something like more debuff oriented or synergy with ambushes:
  • for example F1 could provide increased damage to your next ambush attack with increased threshold for each clone shattered, but in turn F1 does less upfront damage or something.

So this increases synergy between shatter and ambush, and doesn't punish the player for blowing all clones and losing damage on a follow up ambush - because majority of damage will be on the player's ambush.

Equally I'd love to see a dynamic ambush damage system where:
  • player ambush damage is increased by x amount for each active clone.So existence of clones indirectly increases damage by buffing the player's ambush further - increasing direct damage and maybe adding a condi stack etc.

For things like Sword or Trident ambush it could function as:
  • player ambush daze/stun is increased by +0.25s for each active clone.Removing the daze/stun from clones but their existence enhances the cc potential of the player's ambush.

All this together should provide synergies where you can do combos boosting say player staff ambush to crit for 3-4k and landing a burst of condi - but the clones themselves not directly applying this damage, they would just provide visual distraction/deception and shatter fuel - so the opponent would have to watch for/line of sight the player's attack.

Edit - I will say of course with Mirage being my favourite class, only character, and pretty much the only reason I play gw2 - it goes without saying that I want it to be left in a good state. So I have quite a vested interest in what happens as I will continue to play it regardless. I edited some of my first post to hopefully make it clearer.To be honest I'm actually more concerned with the audio and visual effects they use for eg new shatters - I love the F1 sound effect on Chrono, but there's always a risk that either the sound or visual animation could be annoying - and this more than anything else would be a huge turn off for me. Aesthetics are largely the reason I choose to use or not use something. xD

those dont even HAVE to be shatters, could be clone buffs, f3. your clones dont take damage for x secounds, f2 get bonuses based on number of clones, f1 give clones retaliation and swap position with a clone.

I'd love to see more unique F skills, though trouble is the need to function with all the core shatter traits. I'm not sure how they could make many of those traits work otherwise.

tbh core shatter bonuses are useless for the most part anyways. only torment on shatter is any good. could be applied over their attacks, or MB remove IH and make shatters force clones to do ambush, while providing other bonuses depending on the shatter.

It would be interesting if F skills on Mirage activated ambush attacks for clones - like orders/commands - kind of what I was imagining Mirage would be at the start. But I assume it's such a huge/impractical amount of change to make all shatter traits function with this, and would also require a change of how mirage cloak works that it's extremely unlikely to happen.

Realistically they need to ensure all possible build combos work whether they are good builds or not - making sure things like boonstrip on shatter have an effect when using any elite spec.

Clones gaining mirage cloak with the player is thematic and I strongly want this to stay, along with their ability to at least visually perform the ambush attacks in the same window that the player gets access to their ambush (ie after gaining mirage cloak).

Interestingly a trick if clones ambush damage/utility is shifted to the player, would be that the player could wait a moment for clones to ambush first - perhaps tricking an opponent into dodging the negligable attacks and then towards the end of the skill window activate their ambush which would connect with the opponent. Of course that hinges on player ambushes hitting hard. I think that would be pretty fun with counterplay (ie watch the player and see when they ambush, learn to filter out from clone ambushes).

they could make ambush from clones deliver the effect

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‘None’/‘no more’ or ‘no more nerfs’, if it exists, since playing power on mirage is distinctly trashier than on core in PvE. Unless you want even more PvP/condi related nerfs, that’s concerning but okay... I’m fine with that, I guess.

Or else it has to come with a huge compensation package, which I’m not gonna cross my fingers on.

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@"Virtuality.8351" said:I heard there must be 15 characters to be regarded as a legitimate post.

Jokes aside, I am pretty worried about this one particularly after the latest nerf hammer hit on Chronomancer. Maybe it'd be better if we discuss this and maybe get the attention of the balance team than just sit and wait for the hammer to drop again.

Sorry man, we already tried to make suggestions and not only were they largely ignored, but that OP was troll baited and banned for his trouble. Not falling for this trap again.

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Mirage should just loose the ability to gain clones out off phantasm. IH wouldn’t get so obnoxious, especially with the staff weapon, which can basically summon three clones on top of the ability to summon clones through deceptive evasion.

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@flog.3485 said:Mirage should just loose the ability to gain clones out off phantasm. IH wouldn’t get so obnoxious, especially with the staff weapon, which can basically summon three clones on top of the ability to summon clones through deceptive evasion.What is your problem with staff? That they ruined good phantasm, made it do 0 damage and humbly given us two phantasm that stare at you ? 4rd skill is a filler, thats a good utility weapon and phantasm is there purely to make clones.I would agree there is no trade off at the moment when Mirage would be able to dodge in every direction without penalty and wouldnt had grandmaster minor trait as poor banaid for a new clunky evade, that should have came in a package with MC, not occupying entire minor grandmaster trait.If your issue that IH, few of us and not mesmer-mains suggested to transfer damage to mesmer himself and remove it from clones entirely, so we wouldnt need to play with it.The moment they disable evade in stun, MC would turn in a real burden but still would be better than dead chrono

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@praqtos.9035 said:

@flog.3485 said:Mirage should just loose the ability to gain clones out off phantasm. IH wouldn’t get so obnoxious, especially with the staff weapon, which can basically summon three clones on top of the ability to summon clones through deceptive evasion.What is your problem with staff? That they ruined good phantasm, made it do 0 damage and humbly given us two phantasm that stare at you ? 4rd skill is a filler, thats a good utility weapon and phantasm is there purely to make clones.I would agree there is no trade off at the moment when Mirage would be able to dodge in every direction without penalty and wouldnt had grandmaster minor trait as poor banaid for a new clunky evade, that should have came in a package with MC, not occupying entire minor grandmaster trait.If your issue that IH, few of us and not mesmer-mains suggested to transfer damage to mesmer himself and remove it from clones entirely, so we wouldnt need to play with it.The moment they disable evade in stun, MC would turn in a real burden but still would be better than dead chrono

Agreed and I certainly don't want to be pigeonholed into Deceptive Evasion any further.

Already it's bad enough that try to play Axe or Staff without Deceptive Evasion totally sucks. Losing the ability for phantasms to become clones would just make DE even more mandatory.

Right now Axe is not playable without IH and DE together. I'd argue Staff also. This is a huge problem that needs to be addressed - before they start changing other things.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

I said "improved" autos - which ambush attacks are objectively.

And I did say wanting player ambush to be made properly impactful - shifting damage away from clones - making player ambush actually hit hard so you are rewarded for landing it. And making IH a minor trait - building the entire spec around it both for thematic and gameplay/balance reasons.

It seems clear they want Core to be the old school standard shatter spec with most powerful shatters, and given Mirage has ambush it is no stretch of the imagination to anticipate shatters being changed to take this into account. F1-F4 on Mirage will be changed at some point, very likely next patch, I would bet coin on it. The question is how should they be changed, and why. Eg F4 - of course I love and prefer the ability to get 4s uninterrupted invuln to secure stomps/resses etc. But given what they did to Continuum Split on Chrono, I would be extremely suprised if Mirage retains that ability.

It's kind of denial to not expect Anet to do similar treatment for Mirage as they did for Chrono, so I'm going to leave the post up. It is important to at least discuss with the hope they realise that Chrono was nerfed too far, and think deeply about the implications of removal of Illusionary Persona among other things.

Much hinges on two possibilities:
  • return Illusionary Persona to Chrono (and by extension not remove it from Mirage in the first place)
  • change how clones work

I have no idea which of these two is going to happen - suffice to say one of them should happen because Chrono currently does not play well enough.

On the other hand I haven't said anything about dodge when cced - and funnily enough think this is an interesting feature for Mirage that should remain as a primary benefit to the spec.

Ah come on Curunen, you know VERY well that they take nerfs suggestions and implement them very fast, but any buffs suggestions they forget to place them in patches and just toss them in the garbage can xDPlease don't give them ideas, even though the reality they will probably kill mirage and will kill me with it.

After all I am against this tradeoff thing that they came up with out of nowehre, its like it is their way of nerfing everything that almost everyone have aka the expansions so they can introduce new expansion with new OP elites so people have to buy it.

There is class ehm ehm I will not mention, that its core is stronger than its elites in most of the situations, they can add tradeoff to its core xD

Jokes aside I am truly against the tradeoffs for any class (Specially with the time they take between each patch)

I'm fully anticipating Mirage sadly getting the Chrono treatment next patch, with or without our input. :(

And expecting this being preparation either for new elites or some weird dual classing system (based on the wvw skill swap test) either during or after LW5.

I think I just want to emphasise certain thematic and mechanical points of how I would like Mirage to function - so at least if anyone from Anet reading this forum can keep some overarching vision for Mirage in mind, that is more unique compared with Core and Chrono. Encourage and focus on the following key features:
  • ambush as a foundation mechanic. Make player ambush hit hard and be rewarded for landing. Use Shatters and Clones to further boost player ambush damage/cc through synergetic combos.
  • deception with clones as foundation gameplay. Through making IH a minor trait with clones evading and performing same auto/ambush as player, and use of detargets, and maybe some new clone shuffle ability in shatters. Mirage should be all about emphasising "becoming the clone", and then hitting hard with ambush. To add to this I'd love stow weapon to also do the same for all active clones.
  • ability to put evade frames wherever you want, including while cced or during actions. I actually believe this is an interesting system that forces opponents to change how they plan to land their damage.

This would be sufficiently different from Core which is all about standard shatter nuke gameplay, and Chrono which should be about aoe support (but they need to do more work with Chrono shatters to make them suitably unique).

I will edit my post regarding shatters for Mirage - I'm hoping for something like more debuff oriented or synergy with ambushes:
  • for example F1 could provide increased damage to your next ambush attack with increased threshold for each clone shattered, but in turn F1 does less upfront damage or something.

So this increases synergy between shatter and ambush, and doesn't punish the player for blowing all clones and losing damage on a follow up ambush - because majority of damage will be on the player's ambush.

Equally I'd love to see a dynamic ambush damage system where:
  • player ambush damage is increased by x amount for each active clone.So existence of clones indirectly increases damage by buffing the player's ambush further - increasing direct damage and maybe adding a condi stack etc.

For things like Sword or Trident ambush it could function as:
  • player ambush daze/stun is increased by +0.25s for each active clone.Removing the daze/stun from clones but their existence enhances the cc potential of the player's ambush.

All this together should provide synergies where you can do combos boosting say player staff ambush to crit for 3-4k and landing a burst of condi - but the clones themselves not directly applying this damage, they would just provide visual distraction/deception and shatter fuel - so the opponent would have to watch for/line of sight the player's attack.

Edit - I will say of course with Mirage being my favourite class, only character, and pretty much the only reason I play gw2 - it goes without saying that I want it to be left in a good state. So I have quite a vested interest in what happens as I will continue to play it regardless. I edited some of my first post to hopefully make it clearer.To be honest I'm actually more concerned with the audio and visual effects they use for eg new shatters - I love the F1 sound effect on Chrono, but there's always a risk that either the sound or visual animation could be annoying - and this more than anything else would be a huge turn off for me. Aesthetics are largely the reason I choose to use or not use something. xD

those dont even HAVE to be shatters, could be clone buffs, f3. your clones dont take damage for x secounds, f2 get bonuses based on number of clones, f1 give clones retaliation and swap position with a clone.

I'd love to see more unique F skills, though trouble is the need to function with all the core shatter traits. I'm not sure how they could make many of those traits work otherwise.

tbh core shatter bonuses are useless for the most part anyways. only torment on shatter is any good. could be applied over their attacks, or MB remove IH and make shatters force clones to do ambush, while providing other bonuses depending on the shatter.

It would be interesting if F skills on Mirage activated ambush attacks for clones - like orders/commands - kind of what I was imagining Mirage would be at the start. But I assume it's such a huge/impractical amount of change to make all shatter traits function with this, and would also require a change of how mirage cloak works that it's extremely unlikely to happen.

Realistically they need to ensure all possible build combos work whether they are good builds or not - making sure things like boonstrip on shatter have an effect when using any elite spec.

Clones gaining mirage cloak with the player is thematic and I strongly want this to stay, along with their ability to at least visually perform the ambush attacks in the same window that the player gets access to their ambush (ie after gaining mirage cloak).

Interestingly a trick if clones ambush damage/utility is shifted to the player, would be that the player could wait a moment for clones to ambush first - perhaps tricking an opponent into dodging the negligable attacks and then towards the end of the skill window activate their ambush which would connect with the opponent. Of course that hinges on player ambushes hitting hard. I think that would be pretty fun with counterplay (ie watch the player and see when they ambush, learn to filter out from clone ambushes).

they could make ambush from clones deliver the effect

This is what I hoped mirage would function as initially, however I imagine it is likely a ridiculous amount of work - maybe not even possible depending on how they have all the skills written - and given all the patches there have ever been, it seems unlikely for an overhaul on this scale.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@flog.3485 said:Mirage should just loose the ability to gain clones out off phantasm. IH wouldn’t get so obnoxious, especially with the staff weapon, which can basically summon three clones on top of the ability to summon clones through deceptive evasion.

sounds reasonable, what do we get in return ?

Personally I would buff Riddle of sand and the axe trait a little bit.That is the problem with mirage, its damage is way too much reliant on clones imo and with IH, it is an issue.

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@praqtos.9035 said:

@flog.3485 said:Mirage should just loose the ability to gain clones out off phantasm. IH wouldn’t get so obnoxious, especially with the staff weapon, which can basically summon three clones on top of the ability to summon clones through deceptive evasion.What is your problem with staff? That they ruined good phantasm, made it do 0 damage and humbly given us two phantasm that stare at you ? 4rd skill is a filler, thats a good utility weapon and phantasm is there purely to make clones.I would agree there is no trade off at the moment when Mirage would be able to dodge in every direction without penalty and wouldnt had grandmaster minor trait as poor banaid for a new clunky evade, that should have came in a package with MC, not occupying entire minor grandmaster trait.If your issue that IH, few of us and not mesmer-mains suggested to transfer damage to mesmer himself and remove it from clones entirely, so we wouldnt need to play with it.The moment they disable evade in stun, MC would turn in a real burden but still would be better than dead chrono

The problem with staff is that it summons too much clones, which is the main source for mirage to apply damages and for the sake of visual clutter, I think it would be beneficial to nerf it. The point is not to be pigeonholed into deceptive evasion for mirage but rather to have other damage sources for mirage (through trait choices) that are not necessarily bound to clones: talking about riddle of sand and mirrored axes here.

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@flog.3485 said:

@flog.3485 said:Mirage should just loose the ability to gain clones out off phantasm. IH wouldn’t get so obnoxious, especially with the staff weapon, which can basically summon three clones on top of the ability to summon clones through deceptive evasion.

sounds reasonable, what do we get in return ?

Personally I would buff Riddle of sand and the axe trait a little bit.That is the problem with mirage, its damage is way too much reliant on clones imo and with IH, it is an issue.

buffing that wont fix anything, becouse confusion, is the worst damaging condition in the game, by far.if anything they should buff shatters, EXPECIALLY f2, on full condi damage, f1 deals more then f2 and thats just stupid.without torment trait using shatters on cmirage is a waste of damage, only used after using f4 to dryshatter for vigor and 1500dmg max, amazing class mechanic

Also, if you nerf IH and give back damage with riddle of the sand, PVE condi mirage ends up with big loss in damage due to reliance on selfdeception or whatever that trait is called

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@"flog.3485" said:The point is not to be pigeonholed into deceptive evasion for mirage but rather to have other damage sources for mirage (through trait choices) that are not necessarily bound to clones: talking about riddle of sand and mirrored axes here.Your "brilliant" suggestions do the opposite, I honestly dont feel like I can argue with people that have no clue what they are talking about... :(

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@flog.3485 said:Mirage should just loose the ability to gain clones out off phantasm. IH wouldn’t get so obnoxious, especially with the staff weapon, which can basically summon three clones on top of the ability to summon clones through deceptive evasion.

sounds reasonable, what do we get in return ?

Personally I would buff Riddle of sand and the axe trait a little bit.That is the problem with mirage, its damage is way too much reliant on clones imo and with IH, it is an issue.

buffing that wont fix anything, becouse confusion, is the worst damaging condition in the game, by far.if anything they should buff shatters, EXPECIALLY f2, on full condi damage, f1 deals more then f2 and thats just stupid.without torment trait using shatters on cmirage is a waste of damage, only used after using f4 to dryshatter for vigor and 1500dmg max, amazing class mechanic

Also, if you nerf IH and give back damage with riddle of the sand, PVE condi mirage ends up with big loss in damage due to reliance on selfdeception or whatever that trait is called

Of course when I talked about buffing it, I did not really consider keeping riddle of sand as it is. More confusion when you can already apply it through the illusion traitline and scepter 3 isn’t very relevant.I was more thinking of reworking it. Something along the lines of:-the ambush attack of your clones do more damages (something similar to the domination trait that buff phantasm attack)-after performing an ambush attack, you gain a buff that increases your personal damages for x seconds.

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@praqtos.9035 said:

@"flog.3485" said:The point is not to be pigeonholed into deceptive evasion for mirage but rather to have other damage sources for mirage (through trait choices) that are not necessarily bound to clones: talking about riddle of sand and mirrored axes here.Your "brilliant" suggestions do the opposite, I honestly dont feel like I can argue with people that have no clue what they are talking about... :(

Oh I have a clue of what I am talking about. I am talking about the over reliance to do damages and gain sustain through clones (especially for staff chaos playstyle),which in turn makes it unfun to play against mirage due to general visual clutter.

Personally I can not understand how you can come to the conclusion that the old staff phantasm was better than what we have now. I mean yeah it did more damages but the damages would require a heavy amount of conditions in the first place to make it worth and it would also assume that the very slow moving projectile would never be blocked, evaded, reflected or that it would reliably reach the target.Here we have 2 phantasm that do damages reliably while having the luxury of becoming clones that you can ambush and shatter. And talking about lack of damages, did you even try to trait it for more damages ?

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