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Soo, can we stop scaring kids with T1 Siren's Reef?


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Well, that part may or may not be suspicious depending on what OP meant. Notice, that he did write "annoying", not "difficult", and on that part i would actually agree. Siren's Reef is annoying. It is simply not fun at all. Beyond that however, OP definitely does have a point. The difficulty levels of some of the newer fractals (coupled with the instability changes) did wonders in reducing the populatiry of fractals among newer/less skilled players.

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@"Astralporing.1957" said:Well, that part may or may not be suspicious depending on what OP meant. Notice, that he did write "annoying", not "difficult", and on that part i would actually agree. Siren's Reef is annoying. It is simply not fun at all. Beyond that however, OP definitely does have a point. The difficulty levels of some of the newer fractals (coupled with the instability changes) did wonders in reducing the populatiry of fractals among newer/less skilled players.

Note that the title of the thread is,

Soo, can we stop scaring kids with T1 Siren's Reef?

The title wasn't, "can we make it less annoying;" it was "stop scaring with the first tier.

There's a lot of agreement that this fractal is long, agreement that it's laborious. There's agreement that high-skilled groups can burn through the final fight. And there's agreement that PUGlings can struggle through it, particularly with certain instabilities. But is there really any evidence that people who are interested in challenging group content are being put off by T1 of this one fractal?

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I think one thing that would greatly improve the hate towards this fractal's final boss fights is to make the ghost adds that spawn only spawn once like every other fractal. Mai Trin, Cliffside, Swampland, and even Deepstone are bearable because you can clear the adds once and for all.

Am I wrong about the ghosts continually respawning?

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the biggest enemy PuG Sirens Reefs are the other players in the last fight.i think 80% have no clue whats going on. even T1.i NEVER ever saw someone not running away with the green AoE.

And some players only do autoattack. i'm using ARCDPS and its insane how low sometimes dps is.i'm never telling anyone, because its not my business. but i wonder how long it took the player to get level 80.

so yeah i dont run Sirens Reef PuG anymore.

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@Turkeyspit.3965 said:The difficulty of Siren's Reef decreases proportionally based on the amount of Scourges you have in your party.

I'm serious. Everything that makes Reef's final boss fight a challenge is trivialized by Scourge, and the more Scourges, the more trivial it becomes.

No Pain no Gain? ScourgeWe Bleed Fire? ScourgeFrailty? Biggest health pool in the game ScourgeStick Together / Outflanked? Largest/Spammable AoE in the gameAfflicted? Condition cleanse built into Largest/Spammable AoE in the game.

Spammable barrier, fear, AoE's out the whazoo, a Scourge laughs at this fractal.

If I was a conspiracy nut, I'd say that whoever designed Reef wanted a fractal to showcase the power of Scourge.

Not that I want to perpetuate scourges in fractals or anything, but you forgot all the Stability that they put out... And honestly stability and/or aegis spam makes the last boss in Siren's one of the easiest there is.

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@Turkeyspit.3965 said:The difficulty of Siren's Reef decreases proportionally based on the amount of Scourges you have in your party.

I'm serious. Everything that makes Reef's final boss fight a challenge is trivialized by Scourge, and the more Scourges, the more trivial it becomes.

No Pain no Gain? ScourgeWe Bleed Fire? ScourgeFrailty? Biggest health pool in the game ScourgeStick Together / Outflanked? Largest/Spammable AoE in the gameAfflicted? Condition cleanse built into Largest/Spammable AoE in the game.

Spammable barrier, fear, AoE's out the whazoo, a Scourge laughs at this fractal.If I was a conspiracy nut, I'd say that whoever designed Reef wanted a fractal to showcase the power of Scourge.

Or you read skill descriptions and use reflects. A guardian with wor + a ren with ventari cover perma projectile defense, making you immune to adds. You could also take a fb healer to make it completely faceroll.The fractal isn't hard. It's just super annoying without a healer. Why does crow have to teleport around 3 times without any animation? Like it wasn't annoying enough in deepstone.

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The boss is easy the only hard part is the wind blasting allies into the waterThat with a enemy elite mob that grants OP buffs to his allies like quickness and Aegis so you cant pull them into the bossAnd all the other mechanics together just makes it an annoying boss to face

Remove the wind and the fractal can be facerolled easilyReducing the size of the winds would also improve the survival rate by a huge marginOther then that all the other idea's from above can be used to faceroll this boss!

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T1 Sirens is a noob trap. It's not impossible for new players, just very difficult since people lack gaming experience or the mechanics aren't inherently obvious.

People in T1 tend to...

... Split up faster than you can say "let's split up, gang!". Not great for boon sharing or stacking aoe damage since the boss is constantly on the move.... Ignore the cannons, despite being the most telegraphed mechanic of the fractal. Since when was siege equipment ever useful in the open world anyway?... Not throw the pirate treasure, or ignoring it altogether.... Ignore floor cues, so they will ignore red circles and run away from the team when given a green circle. Sometimes there isn't even a group to help you disperse the green. They won't or can't react to the wind mechanic.

All of these problems can be fixed after a few dry runs with a casual group, or with a more experienced player carrying dps or explaining mechanics.

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@"Westenev.5289" said:T1 Sirens is a noob trap. It's not impossible for new players, just very difficult since people lack gaming experience or the mechanics aren't inherently obvious.

People in T1 tend to...

... Split up faster than you can say "let's split up, gang!". Not great for boon sharing or stacking aoe damage since the boss is constantly on the move.... Ignore the cannons, despite being the most telegraphed mechanic of the fractal. Since when was siege equipment ever useful in the open world anyway?... Not throw the pirate treasure, or ignoring it altogether.... Ignore floor cues, so they will ignore red circles and run away from the team when given a green circle. Sometimes there isn't even a group to help you disperse the green. They won't or can't react to the wind mechanic.

All of these problems can be fixed after a few dry runs with a casual group, or with a more experienced player carrying dps or explaining mechanics.

it's the same wind from deepstonethe red circle is the same "flux bomb" from chaos fractal when you fight the anomalythe green circle, while probably new for new players, is quite common. raid, open world, 100 cm all have them

allmost nothing is brand new, unless the player is brandnew. then it's more likely to be a l2p issue, with understanding your class and your role

reflects? sure helpfulcondi cleanses? no-one likes perma slowboon removal? allways welcome

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@melandru.3876 said:

@"Westenev.5289" said:All of these problems can be fixed after a few dry runs with a casual group, or with a more experienced player carrying dps or explaining mechanics.allmost nothing is brand new, unless the player is brandnew. then it's more likely to be a l2p issue, with understanding your class and your role

I'm glad we both agree.

The thing is, if you don't have the experience in your party, then Sirens Reef is hell. Hense the term, "noob trap".

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@Westenev.5289 said:

@Westenev.5289 said:All of these problems can be fixed after a few dry runs with a casual group, or with a more experienced player carrying dps or explaining mechanics.allmost nothing is brand new, unless the player is brandnew. then it's more likely to be a l2p issue, with understanding your class and your role

I'm glad we both agree.

The thing is, if you don't have the experience in your party, then Sirens Reef is hell. Hense the term, "noob trap".And that's why it
is
scaring new players away. New players won't have that experience.
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I don't mind it, the first time I did it I had to ask the rest of the group what the feck was killing me, but after the explanation about not ranging bomb guy and shark I had a good time. I did it on T4 twice and Scourge definitely helped as someone mentioned. On the last boss you want to deal with the adds somehow (again as mentioned already) unless your dps is really good, because they can become unmanageably numerous otherwise.

Now Shattered Observatory is the one that really gets on my tatties because it's loooooong and that Goddess lady is just irritating. DDR guy is at least a nice Crescendo, though.

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:saw SR yesterday for the first time ever. I usually do not do fractals, but the rest of my guild does. They did T1 for a new player and I joined in.

Compared to that Ascalon fractal with its arrow carts it did not seem that bad tbh.

Urban Battleground is a lot older though and people had much more time to adjust. If it released today, you would see complain threads about 10 of those warriors charging you for 15k hits at once, how the section at the gate is impossible to survive due to the burning and how the fractal is way too long due to checking all the blocked paths, every time it's daily.But eventually people figure out that obviously none of that is a problem with the right approach.

People just adjust incredibly slowly and like to cry nerf first and learn and improve later.

Nothing in Siren's Reef is out of line and once the majority of players finally learn basic strategies like reflecting the Bristlebacks, one player manning the cannon at Blasting Black Peter to clear mines, figuring out who mans the cannons on the boat while one player clears the adds that spawn on it, bringing reflects and/or cleave, stacking for green, moving out for orange and to avoid the gusts, no one will bat an eye at this fractal anymore.

It's always just a matter of what will happen first, people bothering to learn the mechanics so it's no hard anymore and stop complaining, or Anet nerfing the content so no one has to bother to learn anything or to improve anymore.

The only thing that's slightly problematic is the Social Awkwardness Instability, but that's bad/annoying design in any Fractal.

@nosleepdemon.1368 said:Now Shattered Observatory is the one that really gets on my tatties because it's loooooong and that Goddess lady is just irritating. DDR guy is at least a nice Crescendo, though.

The trick there is to learn to do it in CM, which makes Shattered Observatory a lot faster by skipping all the dialoge.For Artsariiv, again, Reflects are your friend to negate all the orbs, especially the big ones that knock down.

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@Turkeyspit.3965 said:The difficulty of Siren's Reef decreases proportionally based on the amount of Scourges you have in your party.

I'm serious. Everything that makes Reef's final boss fight a challenge is trivialized by Scourge, and the more Scourges, the more trivial it becomes.

No Pain no Gain? ScourgeWe Bleed Fire? ScourgeFrailty? Biggest health pool in the game ScourgeStick Together / Outflanked? Largest/Spammable AoE in the gameAfflicted? Condition cleanse built into Largest/Spammable AoE in the game.

Spammable barrier, fear, AoE's out the whazoo, a Scourge laughs at this fractal.

If I was a conspiracy nut, I'd say that whoever designed Reef wanted a fractal to showcase the power of Scourge.

So, Healbrand, Alacrigade, Scourge, Scourge, Scourge? :P

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  • 2 weeks later...

siren reef and deep stone etc are amazing fractals to play for the first few times.. but later very very annoying.. the length of fractal, the amount of stuff happening and the rediculous mobs.. deepstone last boss teleport here and there.. the mechanics are fun for first time.. not for after you doing it for many times. I do think maps like this should be removed from t1

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@Turkeyspit.3965 said:The difficulty of Siren's Reef decreases proportionally based on the amount of Scourges you have in your party.

I'm serious. Everything that makes Reef's final boss fight a challenge is trivialized by Scourge, and the more Scourges, the more trivial it becomes.

No Pain no Gain? ScourgeWe Bleed Fire? ScourgeFrailty? Biggest health pool in the game ScourgeStick Together / Outflanked? Largest/Spammable AoE in the gameAfflicted? Condition cleanse built into Largest/Spammable AoE in the game.

Spammable barrier, fear, AoE's out the whazoo, a Scourge laughs at this fractal.

If I was a conspiracy nut, I'd say that whoever designed Reef wanted a fractal to showcase the power of Scourge.

IMO Necros in general can because of their cleaves and well of corruption that can get rid of those enemy boons. Well of Power also handles afflicted entirely. And prot wells deal with frailty. Personally, I think Reaper is superior because you can still just all zerker but just take blood magic so you can easily res allies and take advantage of last rites. It just takes one reaper for this. I've managed to do t4 SR with 2000 ping because spamming 2 blindly does work xD

Of course, the better your group is, the less necessary necro is, as necro's strength is being able to self generate necessary boons.

@Razor.9872 said:So, Healbrand, Alacrigade, Scourge, Scourge, Scourge? :P

With Firebugade you don't need any necros., just damage so you don't have to deal with so many mechanics to begin with. Healbrand does reflects and mantra of liberation while Rene does demon stance to boonstrip and give prot with Renegade. If you're still struggling, Rene could run Jalis. Usually failures here are because the Rene is too greedy with damage and stubbornly sticks with Shiro or the Firebrand isn't using Merciful Intervention well enough (could use bow of truth instead)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Besides the weird naming in the last few weeks on T1 this shouldn't be a problem for a CM groups. Heal FB on T4 is not enough at least when you want to do it relative easy either you need a necro or/and staff ele. Problem is the mob with their cc/chill, condis and dmg which they make easier with their aoe. The main problem in general in this fractals is when the last boss is on the sides and then the yellow and green cycle appears simultaneously its really lead to bad positioning which lead to be blown from the ship when you get then out of the water your way is in 95% the cases blocked because exactly at this moment the stripes are in the mid and you can't doge through because of chill.

What you can do is so long there aren't 4 air stripes you pull back in the mid if you noticed that are you cornered

As Heal FB you can use sword and merciful intervention to go back quickly without getting blocked so much. Yes mantra of liberation is also a must have and in general you need to pace your condi clean unlike other fractals where you can blast through the books same goes for Shiro 6 and 0 on the renegade those skills helps a lot.

But still the fractal is nuts it is on the same difficulty as 99cm B2

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@maniksdi.1765 said:I am a big fan of the game. I play it every day and I plan on not quitting till I reach Fractal God status in the next few years.NOW! I am starting to see less and less ppl doing fractals. I assume new players are quitting game for good after tasting T1 Reef. Can we tone it down or remove it from T1? Why is it still more difficult than Observatory. I found T1 Reef really annoying with my 250ess CMs team today.

Thanks for listening to my rant!Cred X

Lots of people try to just burst the final boss down and that CAN work and is doable in current power levels. The way to handle that boss as a non gear check is killing the adds as they spawn on a timer and it will overwhelm you if your group doesn't have the dps.

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