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Flurry, it stinks, what can we replace it with?


Lan Deathrider.5910

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Warriors,

Sword F1 is awful. The self root keeps it from ever being used, the damage isn't worth using over auto attacking, and the long duration immobilize is no longer useful with the amount of condition clearing that is in the game now. Flurry either needs some major changes, or we need a new sword F1.

I'd like to hear what you all think. (I would have done a poll, but I don't know how to do that yet).

Some rules for posting your ideas though:

  • Damage must be split between condi and power to keep the sword hybrid damage identity. Bleed and/or torment are valid choices. Cripple, immobilize are fine so long as they apply per hit.
  • Must maintain mobility. Either by allowing movement during skill activation/channel or by being a leap itself.
  • Damage can be less than the auto attack so long as a true benefit exists to using the skill, like an added conditional effect.
  • No jumping the shark, lets be realistic.

Here are two ideas I had:

Remove self-root, remove immobilize, add a scaling knockdown effect if the target was immobilized (2s, 3s, 4s based on adrenaline spent). This solves the mobility issue and gives a strong CC if the target was immobilized. I think this would be very versatile and fun. The knockdown would only happen once per target hit as there are up to 11 strikes to Flurry in the event there were multiple targets struck that were immobilized.

OR

New F1 called Galrath Slash. Single strike, applies 11 stacks of bleed, has 1.0 power scaling, immobilizes foe (2s, 3s, 4s based on adrenaline spent). 1/4s cast time. Cleaves. Basically just put all of flurry into one attack. Self-root gone, and instead we get a powerful and quick attack that is a setup for Final Thrust and gives sword MH the ability to punish someone. Yes I put max bleed stacks in there, the difference between 9 and 11 stacks is minimal.

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I agree that the sword core burst is kinda outdated. Since the burst cannot be used with Berserker anymore, I would suggest power oriented rework of the burst.

What about this: new sword burst is basically Final Thrust but with 1/2 second cast time (bonus damage when used on targets bellow 50% HP still remains). Sword 3 (old Final Thrust) is replaced with new skill, a sword throw that immobilizes enemies and deals either medium power damage or stacks bleeds (animation is same as sword 4 skill). Sword 4 is changed into single target 1 sec stun/daze skill (with some swipe animation, similar to daredevil staff 2 skill, but without movement part; or just hilt smash with off-hand sword). The 4th skill could also apply weakness. Also to add, change sword 5 2nd part of skill, Adrenaline Rush, to give 10 adrenaline instead of just 3. Same for mace :)

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@cryorion.9532 said:I agree that the sword core burst is kinda outdated. Since the burst cannot be used with Berserker anymore, I would suggest power oriented rework of the burst.

What about this: new sword burst is basically Final Thrust but with 1/2 second cast time (bonus damage when used on targets bellow 50% HP still remains). Sword 3 (old Final Thrust) is replaced with new skill, a sword throw that immobilizes enemies and deals either medium power damage or stacks bleeds (animation is same as sword 4 skill). Sword 4 is changed into single target 1 sec stun/daze skill (with some swipe animation, similar to daredevil staff 2 skill, but without movement part; or just hilt smash with off-hand sword). The 4th skill could also apply weakness. Also to add, change sword 5 2nd part of skill, Adrenaline Rush, to give 10 adrenaline instead of just 3. Same for mace :)

Those aren't bad ideas, but the focus here is Core F1 not OH sword.

That being said making F1 to be Final Thrust is not a bad idea and sword 3 would need to be replaced if that happened. Swapping Sword 4 into 3, and make Sword 4 a sweeping AoE Knockdown instead would make a great Sword/Sword bar. I'm thinking along the lines of Griffon Sweep from GW1 here btw for Sword 4.

How would Final Thrust be modified by Adrenaline then though? Extra bleed stacks? A scaling duration boon like retaliation? More damage below target health of 50% (50%, 100%, 150%)?

I believe Adrenaline Rush grants 6 strikes btw, at least in PvE. It should be the same as mace regardless.

Nice suggestion.

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The spirit of MH Sword is a mobility based weapon. It both grants mobility to the user as well as reduces mobility of enemies (AA, 2, f1).

With this in mind, I think the self root needs to be dropped, but that cripple should be added as part of the burst conditions that are inflicted.

Additionally, I'd like to see core Condi have a little more than just doing bleed damage. In keeping with the anti-mobility theme, I think f1 should diversify and also add torment on every other strike.

To help with power damage, grant more power damage if 2 is used in under 200 range.

That's all I got!

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Oh, one other thing. I really don't want them to completely rework sword. I love the leap on 2 and would hate to lose the feel that sword has. With berserker and scrapper changes, I don't want a completely new set of skills on my sword, just some fine tuning...oh sword, however, is a different story!

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@Opopanax.1803 said:Oh, one other thing. I really don't want them to completely rework sword. I love the leap on 2 and would hate to lose the feel that sword has. With berserker and scrapper changes, I don't want a completely new set of skills on my sword, just some fine tuning...oh sword, however, is a different story!

Well, this is supposed to be about Flurry and nothing else. @cryorion.9532 suggested moving Final Thrust to F1, which is in itself a good suggestion, it just invites more changes to the Sword bar, which I'd rather avoid as it would be less likely that Anet listens to what feedback is provided.

To build on your suggestion:Flurry: Changed to no rooting, applies cripple (make it 1s per hit for simplicity) and 1stack of torment every hit for 4s (again for simplicity). Increase power scaling on each hit by 0.05 meaning that a full 11 hits has an extra 0.55 on the power scaling.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Opopanax.1803 said:Oh, one other thing. I really don't want them to completely rework sword. I love the leap on 2 and would hate to lose the feel that sword has. With berserker and scrapper changes, I don't want a completely new set of skills on my sword, just some fine tuning...oh sword, however, is a different story!

Well, this is supposed to be about Flurry and nothing else. @cryorion.9532 suggested moving Final Thrust to F1, which is in itself a good suggestion, it just invites more changes to the Sword bar, which I'd rather avoid as it would be less likely that Anet listens to what feedback is provided.

To build on your suggestion:Flurry: Changed to no rooting, applies cripple (make it 1s per hit for simplicity) and 1stack of torment every hit for 4s (again for simplicity). Increase power scaling on each hit by 0.05 meaning that a full 11 hits has an extra 0.55 on the power scaling.

I like your thoughts! Simple and clean. I don't think this would be OP, but if it ended up being too strong, it would be easy to reduce durations. Win, WI for the balance team.

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I wouldnt mind seeing a form of blind thrown onto Sword F1, give it a more rounded role,

Rather than the stand still attack the air like you're trying to swat a fly, have the sword swipe into the floor spinning 360 around and then flick up at the end of the attack throwing dirt all around the player, causing damage bleed and blind to all foes in range. The more adrenalin, the more intense the stacks + damage.

Or, to give the sword the mobility and ability to be in the flight as it feels like it was designed, i would propose the following two:

Core version

  • Crippling Dash - Dash towards your target location and slash the legs of targets on route. knocking them down for [1s] [1.5s] [2s] dependant on adrenalin levels. This skill will cause cripple and bleeding upon aplication.Berserker version:
  • Burning Dash - Set your sword ablaze and dash towards your target location burning, bleeding and crippling all targets in the way. You leave behind you a trail of fire burning duration [2s] per stack. This attack will daze anything which is struck for [1/4s]

Both versions would be Ground target and skill based. Dash distance 360 - 400 range.

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It needs to have the equivalent power output of Axe overtime per burst (Edit: After testing because it has been so long, it kinda does already forget about that, it would make it stronger than Axe and GS if it was to be changed, speed up the channeling instead.), pulse Cripple and Torment with the Bleeding, Immobilize on it is still great. Making it hard to come out is the idea.

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I really don't want final thrust to be the burst skill, as the damage is poor outside of the threshold and MH sword has 0 ways of getting someone under 50% on its own, or with any off hand.

Instead I'd rather see it be a combination of:https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Disarmhttps://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hundred_Blades

We'll call it like, Dancing Blades or something.

Leap at an enemy, evading and dazing them for 1/4 seconds and ignoring stability. If you interrupt an enemy, all Weapon Skills are disabled for 1/2/3 seconds. Does negligible damage.After leaping, regardless of striking an enemy, gain Hundred Blades for 3/6/9 seconds. Hundred Blades is a buff that grants ALL ATTACKS a bonus strike on enemies within 180 radius of the original target, doing power damage AND bleeding. Enemies cannot be damaged more than once per attack source (so if you strike 3 enemies with an attack, you get 3 bonus strikes but they can only damage the same target once).

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To clarify, just because I like something someone posts does not mean that I necessarily think that should be the choice made, so far all of you have presented fun proposed updates to Flurry.

@"Kiroshima.8497" said:I really don't want final thrust to be the burst skill, as the damage is poor outside of the threshold and MH sword has 0 ways of getting someone under 50% on its own, or with any off hand.

Instead I'd rather see it be a combination of:https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Disarmhttps://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hundred_Blades

We'll call it like, Dancing Blades or something.

Leap at an enemy, evading and dazing them for 1/4 seconds and ignoring stability. If you interrupt an enemy, all Weapon Skills are disabled for 1/2/3 seconds. Does negligible damage.After leaping, regardless of striking an enemy, gain Hundred Blades for 3/6/9 seconds. Hundred Blades is a buff that grants ALL ATTACKS a bonus strike on enemies within 180 radius of the original target, doing power damage AND bleeding. Enemies cannot be damaged more than once per attack source (so if you strike 3 enemies with an attack, you get 3 bonus strikes but they can only damage the same target once).

Why not strip their stability and then daze them? I think what you are wanting here is a bit of a reach, but there are good things in it like the evading leap + daze. I think F1 being a buff that adds additional strikes is also a good idea, but I think meshing these two ideas together may be too much.

@Smoosh.2718 said:I wouldnt mind seeing a form of blind thrown onto Sword F1, give it a more rounded role,

Rather than the stand still attack the air like you're trying to swat a fly, have the sword swipe into the floor spinning 360 around and then flick up at the end of the attack throwing dirt all around the player, causing damage bleed and blind to all foes in range. The more adrenalin, the more intense the stacks + damage.

Or, to give the sword the mobility and ability to be in the flight as it feels like it was designed, i would propose the following two:

Core version

  • Crippling Dash - Dash towards your target location and slash the legs of targets on route. knocking them down for [1s] [1.5s] [2s] dependant on adrenalin levels. This skill will cause cripple and bleeding upon aplication.Berserker version:
  • Burning Dash - Set your sword ablaze and dash towards your target location burning, bleeding and crippling all targets in the way. You leave behind you a trail of fire burning duration [2s] per stack. This attack will daze anything which is struck for [1/4s]

Both versions would be Ground target and skill based. Dash distance 360 - 400 range.

I like the Crippling Dash idea very cool and fun sounding. Adds a lot more mobility and some CC. Flaming Flurry is a fine Primal Burst and does not need an update, but that is also a unique and fun idea. The aoe blind attack is also very swordplay meme and would also be fun.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:To clarify, just because I like something someone posts does not mean that I necessarily think that should be the choice made, so far all of you have presented fun proposed updates to Flurry.

Why not strip their stability and then daze them? I think what you are wanting here is a bit of a reach, but there are good things in it like the evading leap + daze. I think F1 being a buff that adds additional strikes is also a good idea, but I think meshing these two ideas together may be too much.

The reason I don't want to rip stab is because I don't want warrior to be a boon destruction class without spellbreaker. By making you able to daze THROUGH stab, it still lets you disarm foes without ripping away their protection from other hard cc skills like bulls charge and such. The goal of the skill is to interrupt an attack and reduce pressure, not to lock them down (which is why it doesnt lock out their utilities). It's more finesse than power, and warrior doesn't get to show that they are capable of it that often. It also ensures that dagger burst (which should put Disenchantment on foes IMO) is still the boon rip burst, while sword is the interrupter into an offensive buff state, but you still need to land further attacks in order to gain more damage. It also preserves sword's ability to complement weapon swap after the burst since you could swap to say, Longbow for a pulsing aoe with the Hundred Blades buff, or Greatsword 100 Blades with the Hundred Blades buff for even MORE SWORDS.

The reason why it also has a buff is that it allows sword to focus on its multi-hit game plan without being super commital to a self rooted (or even slow channel movent, it's a sword for fast movement and finesse) and act as an homage to one of the more classic GW1 sword skills, Hundred Blades. Just the evade/interrupt alone is hardly a burst skill, especially one with a more limited targeting method than full counter (which is a 300 radius, 5 target, unblockable attack).

Of course off hand sword would need a fix to go with this >_>Off hand sword is cursed.

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@TheBravery.9615 said:If I'm being realistic, flurry needs to be unrooted, have it's' damage inccreased massively, and have its cast time reduced.

If AT LEAST that was done, it wouldn't be so bad.

Very true. The cast time isn't so much of the issue though if you can move however if the damage is increased.

What would be an appropriate damage increase to you? More power damage, more bleeds, or add torment stacks? Why not have 11 stacks of torment instead of the immobilize? That is the OH sword condition and it would still fit with core, and would increase the damage output.

Personally I think the power damage needs to be at least twice as high, at minimum, to address the damage issue, not precluding any increases to condi damage either. I'm willing to have less damage though if a strong CC is there, or the right amount of the right kind of boon(s).

Some boons that would be fitting:RetaliationProtectionQuicknessVigor

A mixture of them at 4s duration each or 1 for a very long duration would fit into a swordmaster's kit thematically.

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I hate flurry.

I have been killed multiple times by the self-root, its almost too dangerous to even use in some fights like against Holosmiths.

My last super long fight was lost while on my Spellbreaker because I accidentally hit F1 and got nuked instantly before I could break the animation in time. Totally useless skill.

I was so pissed I started playing Ranger again.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@TheBravery.9615 said:If I'm being realistic, flurry needs to be unrooted, have it's' damage inccreased massively, and have its cast time reduced.

If AT LEAST that was done, it wouldn't be so bad.

Very true. The cast time isn't so much of the issue though if you can move however if the damage is increased.

What would be an appropriate damage increase to you? More power damage, more bleeds, or add torment stacks? Why not have 11 stacks of torment instead of the immobilize? That is the OH sword condition and it would still fit with core, and would increase the damage output.

Personally I think the power damage needs to be at least twice as high, at minimum, to address the damage issue, not precluding any increases to condi damage either. I'm willing to have less damage though if a strong CC is there, or the right amount of the right kind of boon(s).

Some boons that would be fitting:RetaliationProtectionQuicknessVigor

A mixture of them at 4s duration each or 1 for a very long duration would fit into a swordmaster's kit thematically.

If you double it's power damage it puts it's above many other bursts. It's current coefficient is ~2.0 for the whole skill.Level 3 Eviscerate is at 3.0 for example. Doubling it to 4 would make it far too strong for the type of weapon sword is.

If you add torment instead of imob on top of the bleeds it would be too strong. Instead of the bleeds would make sense. Or reduce it to 4 strikes so you can do 4/4 torment/bleed.

On a serious note I feel all the skill needs as a start are two things:

  1. Unroofed. Obvious reasons.
  2. Faster cast time. 2.5s is too long. Drop it to 1~1.5s.
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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@TheBravery.9615 said:If I'm being realistic, flurry needs to be unrooted, have it's' damage inccreased massively, and have its cast time reduced.

If AT LEAST that was done, it wouldn't be so bad.

Very true. The cast time isn't so much of the issue though if you can move however if the damage is increased.

What would be an appropriate damage increase to you? More power damage, more bleeds, or add torment stacks? Why not have 11 stacks of torment instead of the immobilize? That is the OH sword condition and it would still fit with core, and would increase the damage output.

Personally I think the power damage needs to be at least twice as high, at minimum, to address the damage issue, not precluding any increases to condi damage either. I'm willing to have less damage though if a strong CC is there, or the right amount of the right kind of boon(s).

Some boons that would be fitting:RetaliationProtectionQuicknessVigor

A mixture of them at 4s duration each or 1 for a very long duration would fit into a swordmaster's kit thematically.

If you double it's power damage it puts it's above many other bursts. It's current coefficient is ~2.0 for the whole skill.Level 3 Eviscerate is at 3.0 for example. Doubling it to 4 would make it far too strong for the type of weapon sword is.

If you add torment instead of imob on top of the bleeds it would be too strong. Instead of the bleeds would make sense. Or reduce it to 4 strikes so you can do 4/4 torment/bleed.

On a serious note I feel all the skill needs as a start are two things:
  1. Unroofed. Obvious reasons.
  2. Faster cast time. 2.5s is too long. Drop it to 1~1.5s.

That is over 2 seconds though, so as far as 'DPS' goes that is kind of low in comparison to other bursts. The DPS of Flurry NOW is too low relative to just auto attacking, and that is because of the channel time relative to the number of hits. So adding more condi or more power damage would actually bring it in line with other burst in terms of damage if the channel remains the same. Obviously if you reduce the channel the amount of condi/power added to it would have to drop. The current damage that it does would be fine for a 1-3 hit skill with no channel time, not a 9-11 hit channeled skill.

1) Agreed2) Agreed that just reducing the channel time is itself a valid way to make it better and useful. I'd say 1s though personally.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:what? don't mess with flurry.

Why do you think it is currently okay? Or is that you are afraid of Anet making it worse?

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