Trade-offs for Mirage -- What Will It Be? What Would You Like It to Be? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Trade-offs for Mirage -- What Will It Be? What Would You Like It to Be?

Virtuality.8351Virtuality.8351 Member ✭✭✭
edited August 13, 2019 in Mesmer

I heard there must be 15 characters to be regarded as a legitimate post.

Jokes aside, I am pretty worried about this one particularly after the latest nerf hammer hit on Chronomancer. Maybe it'd be better if we discuss this and maybe get the attention of the balance team than just sit and wait for the hammer to drop again.

Comments

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2019

    Predictions:

    • modified shatters to compensate for "improved" auto attacks (ambushes). No idea what F1-3 will become but I would like to see them either be debuff or indirectly boosting player ambush damage and utility. Eg, F1 could provide increased damage to your next ambush attack with increased threshold for each clone shattered, but in turn F1 does less upfront damage or something. F3 could do shorter duration daze and then give eg 1s daze to your next ambush attack. F2 could be essentially Riddle of Sand built in.
    • F4 likely becoming "Desert Distortion". Eg 1s distortion like Continuum Split, and all clones become mirrors (for the record I prefer normal Distortion, but given what has happened with Continuum Split it is extremely likely F4 is going to get a similar style of change on Mirage).

    Possibilities:

    • Removal of self shatter, but this depends if they decide to restore it to Chrono or not. This could go several ways, and either way it would need some deep thinking about how clones work and how they could/should work.

    Hopeful:

    • IH becoming minor trait so they can balance the whole spec around it.
    • together with rethinking of what the top/bottom/middle line, adept/master/grandmaster tiers should be.
    • moving most of the damage onto player ambush and reducing it from clone ambush. Player ambush should be impactful and rewarded for landing, Clone ambush should be the "red herring" that opponents should learn to spot the player ambush from the clone ambushes thus avoiding most of the damage. Additionally player ambush damage should be further increased by x amount for each active clone, so existence of clones indirectly increases damage by buffing the player's ambush - increasing direct damage and maybe adding condi stacks etc.

    Overall I would like maintain and further encourage the playstyle of being able to use mind tricks, blend with clones etc.

    I understand that the Grandmaster Major traits are intended to be three choices for dodge modification analagous to Daredevil's final tier traits - however I think it is shown over the last two years that while it might appear satisfying on paper, there are so many issues with the Grandmaster Major traits that this whole concept of final tier dodge modification needs to be rethought.

    Mirage isn't similar to Daredevil - the obvious fact being the existence of clones - and the design of the entire trait line should be looked at to better support this.

    I think it goes without saying that Speed of Sand is a joke as a separate trait - should be integrated with baseline mechanic of Mirage Cloak.

    Could have it as Top line being Utility (Self Deception, new Mirror trait, Dune Cloak), Middle line being Defensive (regen, protection, Elusive Mind), Bottom Line being Offensive (Riddle of Sand, Axe trait, new GM major trait).

    The whole final tier of traits should be changed and reintegrated - build around the thematic deceptive foundation of clones dodging with and performing the same attack (ambush) as the player.

    I think I just want to emphasise certain thematic and mechanical points of how I would like Mirage to function - so at least if anyone from Anet reading this forum can keep some overarching vision for Mirage in mind, that is more unique compared with Core and Chrono. Encourage and focus on the following key features:

    • ambush as a foundation mechanic. Make player ambush hit hard and be rewarded for landing. Use Shatters and Clones to further boost player ambush damage/cc through synergetic combos.
    • deception with clones as foundation gameplay. Through making IH a minor trait with clones evading and performing same auto/ambush as player, and use of detargets, and maybe some new clone shuffle ability in shatters. Mirage should be all about emphasising "becoming the clone", and then hitting hard with ambush. To add to this I'd love stow weapon to also do the same for all active clones.
    • ability to put evade frames wherever you want, including while cced or during actions. I actually believe this is an interesting system that forces opponents to change how they plan to land their burst.

    Edit - overall I hope they learn from Chrono and don't make similar mistakes with Mirage - as I'm hoping for Chrono to get some buffs next patch once they see they went too far. Of course ideally I'd like to see a deep change to how clones work, but I am not expecting anything on that scale.
    Edit 2 - adding some things from a post below to provide more explanation.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    I'd strongly recommend to delete your comment (parts with savage nerfs that would kill mirage that as they did with chrono) as you give them ideas. Bad dodge is enough but double trade-off like chrono, pls no.
    Also "stronger" autoattacks is a myth, they are like autos, without IH they are real garbage,especially scepter/axe

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    I'd strongly recommend to delete your comment (parts with savage nerfs that would kill mirage that as they did with chrono) as you give them ideas. Bad dodge is enough but double trade-off like chrono, pls no.
    Also "stronger" autoattacks is a myth, they are like autos, without IH they are real garbage,especially scepter/axe

    I said "improved" autos - which ambush attacks are objectively.

    And I did say wanting player ambush to be made properly impactful - shifting damage away from clones - making player ambush actually hit hard so you are rewarded for landing it. And making IH a minor trait - building the entire spec around it both for thematic and gameplay/balance reasons.

    It seems clear they want Core to be the old school standard shatter spec with most powerful shatters, and given Mirage has ambush it is no stretch of the imagination to anticipate shatters being changed to take this into account. F1-F4 on Mirage will be changed at some point, very likely next patch, I would bet coin on it. The question is how should they be changed, and why. Eg F4 - of course I love and prefer the ability to get 4s uninterrupted invuln to secure stomps/resses etc. But given what they did to Continuum Split on Chrono, I would be extremely suprised if Mirage retains that ability.

    It's kind of denial to not expect Anet to do similar treatment for Mirage as they did for Chrono, so I'm going to leave the post up. It is important to at least discuss with the hope they realise that Chrono was nerfed too far, and think deeply about the implications of removal of Illusionary Persona among other things.

    Much hinges on two possibilities:

    • return Illusionary Persona to Chrono (and by extension not remove it from Mirage in the first place)
    • change how clones work

    I have no idea which of these two is going to happen - suffice to say one of them should happen because Chrono currently does not play well enough.

    On the other hand I haven't said anything about dodge when cced - and funnily enough think this is an interesting feature for Mirage that should remain as a primary benefit to the spec.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Heartpains.7312Heartpains.7312 Member ✭✭✭

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    I said "improved" autos - which ambush attacks are objectively.

    And I did say wanting player ambush to be made properly impactful - shifting damage away from clones - making player ambush actually hit hard so you are rewarded for landing it. And making IH a minor trait - building the entire spec around it both for thematic and gameplay/balance reasons.

    It seems clear they want Core to be the old school standard shatter spec with most powerful shatters, and given Mirage has ambush it is no stretch of the imagination to anticipate shatters being changed to take this into account. F1-F4 on Mirage will be changed at some point, very likely next patch, I would bet coin on it. The question is how should they be changed, and why. Eg F4 - of course I love and prefer the ability to get 4s uninterrupted invuln to secure stomps/resses etc. But given what they did to Continuum Split on Chrono, I would be extremely suprised if Mirage retains that ability.

    It's kind of denial to not expect Anet to do similar treatment for Mirage as they did for Chrono, so I'm going to leave the post up. It is important to at least discuss with the hope they realise that Chrono was nerfed too far, and think deeply about the implications of removal of Illusionary Persona among other things.

    Much hinges on two possibilities:

    • return Illusionary Persona to Chrono (and by extension not remove it from Mirage in the first place)
    • change how clones work

    I have no idea which of these two is going to happen - suffice to say one of them should happen because Chrono currently does not play well enough.

    On the other hand I haven't said anything about dodge when cced - and funnily enough think this is an interesting feature for Mirage that should remain as a primary benefit to the spec.

    Ah come on Curunen, you know VERY well that they take nerfs suggestions and implement them very fast, but any buffs suggestions they forget to place them in patches and just toss them in the garbage can xD
    Please don't give them ideas, even though the reality they will probably kill mirage and will kill me with it.

    After all I am against this tradeoff thing that they came up with out of nowehre, its like it is their way of nerfing everything that almost everyone have aka the expansions so they can introduce new expansion with new OP elites so people have to buy it.

    There is class ehm ehm I will not mention, that its core is stronger than its elites in most of the situations, they can add tradeoff to its core xD

    Jokes aside I am truly against the tradeoffs for any class (Specially with the time they take between each patch)

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    @Heartpains.7312 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    I said "improved" autos - which ambush attacks are objectively.

    And I did say wanting player ambush to be made properly impactful - shifting damage away from clones - making player ambush actually hit hard so you are rewarded for landing it. And making IH a minor trait - building the entire spec around it both for thematic and gameplay/balance reasons.

    It seems clear they want Core to be the old school standard shatter spec with most powerful shatters, and given Mirage has ambush it is no stretch of the imagination to anticipate shatters being changed to take this into account. F1-F4 on Mirage will be changed at some point, very likely next patch, I would bet coin on it. The question is how should they be changed, and why. Eg F4 - of course I love and prefer the ability to get 4s uninterrupted invuln to secure stomps/resses etc. But given what they did to Continuum Split on Chrono, I would be extremely suprised if Mirage retains that ability.

    It's kind of denial to not expect Anet to do similar treatment for Mirage as they did for Chrono, so I'm going to leave the post up. It is important to at least discuss with the hope they realise that Chrono was nerfed too far, and think deeply about the implications of removal of Illusionary Persona among other things.

    Much hinges on two possibilities:

    • return Illusionary Persona to Chrono (and by extension not remove it from Mirage in the first place)
    • change how clones work

    I have no idea which of these two is going to happen - suffice to say one of them should happen because Chrono currently does not play well enough.

    On the other hand I haven't said anything about dodge when cced - and funnily enough think this is an interesting feature for Mirage that should remain as a primary benefit to the spec.

    Ah come on Curunen, you know VERY well that they take nerfs suggestions and implement them very fast, but any buffs suggestions they forget to place them in patches and just toss them in the garbage can xD
    Please don't give them ideas, even though the reality they will probably kill mirage and will kill me with it.

    After all I am against this tradeoff thing that they came up with out of nowehre, its like it is their way of nerfing everything that almost everyone have aka the expansions so they can introduce new expansion with new OP elites so people have to buy it.

    There is class ehm ehm I will not mention, that its core is stronger than its elites in most of the situations, they can add tradeoff to its core xD

    Jokes aside I am truly against the tradeoffs for any class (Specially with the time they take between each patch)

    I'm fully anticipating Mirage sadly getting the Chrono treatment next patch, with or without our input. :(

    And expecting this being preparation either for new elites or some weird dual classing system (based on the wvw skill swap test) either during or after LW5.

    I think I just want to emphasise certain thematic and mechanical points of how I would like Mirage to function - so at least if anyone from Anet reading this forum can keep some overarching vision for Mirage in mind, that is more unique compared with Core and Chrono. Encourage and focus on the following key features:

    • ambush as a foundation mechanic. Make player ambush hit hard and be rewarded for landing. Use Shatters and Clones to further boost player ambush damage/cc through synergetic combos.
    • deception with clones as foundation gameplay. Through making IH a minor trait with clones evading and performing same auto/ambush as player, and use of detargets, and maybe some new clone shuffle ability in shatters. Mirage should be all about emphasising "becoming the clone", and then hitting hard with ambush. To add to this I'd love stow weapon to also do the same for all active clones.
    • ability to put evade frames wherever you want, including while cced or during actions. I actually believe this is an interesting system that forces opponents to change how they plan to land their damage.

    This would be sufficiently different from Core which is all about standard shatter nuke gameplay, and Chrono which should be about aoe support (but they need to do more work with Chrono shatters to make them suitably unique).

    I will edit my post regarding shatters for Mirage - I'm hoping for something like more debuff oriented or synergy with ambushes:

    • for example F1 could provide increased damage to your next ambush attack with increased threshold for each clone shattered, but in turn F1 does less upfront damage or something.

    So this increases synergy between shatter and ambush, and doesn't punish the player for blowing all clones and losing damage on a follow up ambush - because majority of damage will be on the player's ambush.

    Equally I'd love to see a dynamic ambush damage system where:

    • player ambush damage is increased by x amount for each active clone.
      So existence of clones indirectly increases damage by buffing the player's ambush further - increasing direct damage and maybe adding a condi stack etc.

    For things like Sword or Trident ambush it could function as:

    • player ambush daze/stun is increased by +0.25s for each active clone.
      Removing the daze/stun from clones but their existence enhances the cc potential of the player's ambush.

    All this together should provide synergies where you can do combos boosting say player staff ambush to crit for 3-4k and landing a burst of condi - but the clones themselves not directly applying this damage, they would just provide visual distraction/deception and shatter fuel - so the opponent would have to watch for/line of sight the player's attack.

    Edit - I will say of course with Mirage being my favourite class, only character, and pretty much the only reason I play gw2 - it goes without saying that I want it to be left in a good state. So I have quite a vested interest in what happens as I will continue to play it regardless. I edited some of my first post to hopefully make it clearer.
    To be honest I'm actually more concerned with the audio and visual effects they use for eg new shatters - I love the F1 sound effect on Chrono, but there's always a risk that either the sound or visual animation could be annoying - and this more than anything else would be a huge turn off for me. Aesthetics are largely the reason I choose to use or not use something. xD

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Heartpains.7312 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    I said "improved" autos - which ambush attacks are objectively.

    And I did say wanting player ambush to be made properly impactful - shifting damage away from clones - making player ambush actually hit hard so you are rewarded for landing it. And making IH a minor trait - building the entire spec around it both for thematic and gameplay/balance reasons.

    It seems clear they want Core to be the old school standard shatter spec with most powerful shatters, and given Mirage has ambush it is no stretch of the imagination to anticipate shatters being changed to take this into account. F1-F4 on Mirage will be changed at some point, very likely next patch, I would bet coin on it. The question is how should they be changed, and why. Eg F4 - of course I love and prefer the ability to get 4s uninterrupted invuln to secure stomps/resses etc. But given what they did to Continuum Split on Chrono, I would be extremely suprised if Mirage retains that ability.

    It's kind of denial to not expect Anet to do similar treatment for Mirage as they did for Chrono, so I'm going to leave the post up. It is important to at least discuss with the hope they realise that Chrono was nerfed too far, and think deeply about the implications of removal of Illusionary Persona among other things.

    Much hinges on two possibilities:

    • return Illusionary Persona to Chrono (and by extension not remove it from Mirage in the first place)
    • change how clones work

    I have no idea which of these two is going to happen - suffice to say one of them should happen because Chrono currently does not play well enough.

    On the other hand I haven't said anything about dodge when cced - and funnily enough think this is an interesting feature for Mirage that should remain as a primary benefit to the spec.

    Ah come on Curunen, you know VERY well that they take nerfs suggestions and implement them very fast, but any buffs suggestions they forget to place them in patches and just toss them in the garbage can xD
    Please don't give them ideas, even though the reality they will probably kill mirage and will kill me with it.

    After all I am against this tradeoff thing that they came up with out of nowehre, its like it is their way of nerfing everything that almost everyone have aka the expansions so they can introduce new expansion with new OP elites so people have to buy it.

    There is class ehm ehm I will not mention, that its core is stronger than its elites in most of the situations, they can add tradeoff to its core xD

    Jokes aside I am truly against the tradeoffs for any class (Specially with the time they take between each patch)

    I'm fully anticipating Mirage sadly getting the Chrono treatment next patch, with or without our input. :(

    And expecting this being preparation either for new elites or some weird dual classing system (based on the wvw skill swap test) either during or after LW5.

    I think I just want to emphasise certain thematic and mechanical points of how I would like Mirage to function - so at least if anyone from Anet reading this forum can keep some overarching vision for Mirage in mind, that is more unique compared with Core and Chrono. Encourage and focus on the following key features:

    • ambush as a foundation mechanic. Make player ambush hit hard and be rewarded for landing. Use Shatters and Clones to further boost player ambush damage/cc through synergetic combos.
    • deception with clones as foundation gameplay. Through making IH a minor trait with clones evading and performing same auto/ambush as player, and use of detargets, and maybe some new clone shuffle ability in shatters. Mirage should be all about emphasising "becoming the clone", and then hitting hard with ambush. To add to this I'd love stow weapon to also do the same for all active clones.
    • ability to put evade frames wherever you want, including while cced or during actions. I actually believe this is an interesting system that forces opponents to change how they plan to land their damage.

    This would be sufficiently different from Core which is all about standard shatter nuke gameplay, and Chrono which should be about aoe support (but they need to do more work with Chrono shatters to make them suitably unique).

    I will edit my post regarding shatters for Mirage - I'm hoping for something like more debuff oriented or synergy with ambushes:

    • for example F1 could provide increased damage to your next ambush attack with increased threshold for each clone shattered, but in turn F1 does less upfront damage or something.

    So this increases synergy between shatter and ambush, and doesn't punish the player for blowing all clones and losing damage on a follow up ambush - because majority of damage will be on the player's ambush.

    Equally I'd love to see a dynamic ambush damage system where:

    • player ambush damage is increased by x amount for each active clone.
      So existence of clones indirectly increases damage by buffing the player's ambush further - increasing direct damage and maybe adding a condi stack etc.

    For things like Sword or Trident ambush it could function as:

    • player ambush daze/stun is increased by +0.25s for each active clone.
      Removing the daze/stun from clones but their existence enhances the cc potential of the player's ambush.

    All this together should provide synergies where you can do combos boosting say player staff ambush to crit for 3-4k and landing a burst of condi - but the clones themselves not directly applying this damage, they would just provide visual distraction/deception and shatter fuel - so the opponent would have to watch for/line of sight the player's attack.

    Edit - I will say of course with Mirage being my favourite class, only character, and pretty much the only reason I play gw2 - it goes without saying that I want it to be left in a good state. So I have quite a vested interest in what happens as I will continue to play it regardless. I edited some of my first post to hopefully make it clearer.
    To be honest I'm actually more concerned with the audio and visual effects they use for eg new shatters - I love the F1 sound effect on Chrono, but there's always a risk that either the sound or visual animation could be annoying - and this more than anything else would be a huge turn off for me. Aesthetics are largely the reason I choose to use or not use something. xD

    those dont even HAVE to be shatters, could be clone buffs, f3. your clones dont take damage for x secounds, f2 get bonuses based on number of clones, f1 give clones retaliation and swap position with a clone.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Heartpains.7312 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    I said "improved" autos - which ambush attacks are objectively.

    And I did say wanting player ambush to be made properly impactful - shifting damage away from clones - making player ambush actually hit hard so you are rewarded for landing it. And making IH a minor trait - building the entire spec around it both for thematic and gameplay/balance reasons.

    It seems clear they want Core to be the old school standard shatter spec with most powerful shatters, and given Mirage has ambush it is no stretch of the imagination to anticipate shatters being changed to take this into account. F1-F4 on Mirage will be changed at some point, very likely next patch, I would bet coin on it. The question is how should they be changed, and why. Eg F4 - of course I love and prefer the ability to get 4s uninterrupted invuln to secure stomps/resses etc. But given what they did to Continuum Split on Chrono, I would be extremely suprised if Mirage retains that ability.

    It's kind of denial to not expect Anet to do similar treatment for Mirage as they did for Chrono, so I'm going to leave the post up. It is important to at least discuss with the hope they realise that Chrono was nerfed too far, and think deeply about the implications of removal of Illusionary Persona among other things.

    Much hinges on two possibilities:

    • return Illusionary Persona to Chrono (and by extension not remove it from Mirage in the first place)
    • change how clones work

    I have no idea which of these two is going to happen - suffice to say one of them should happen because Chrono currently does not play well enough.

    On the other hand I haven't said anything about dodge when cced - and funnily enough think this is an interesting feature for Mirage that should remain as a primary benefit to the spec.

    Ah come on Curunen, you know VERY well that they take nerfs suggestions and implement them very fast, but any buffs suggestions they forget to place them in patches and just toss them in the garbage can xD
    Please don't give them ideas, even though the reality they will probably kill mirage and will kill me with it.

    After all I am against this tradeoff thing that they came up with out of nowehre, its like it is their way of nerfing everything that almost everyone have aka the expansions so they can introduce new expansion with new OP elites so people have to buy it.

    There is class ehm ehm I will not mention, that its core is stronger than its elites in most of the situations, they can add tradeoff to its core xD

    Jokes aside I am truly against the tradeoffs for any class (Specially with the time they take between each patch)

    I'm fully anticipating Mirage sadly getting the Chrono treatment next patch, with or without our input. :(

    And expecting this being preparation either for new elites or some weird dual classing system (based on the wvw skill swap test) either during or after LW5.

    I think I just want to emphasise certain thematic and mechanical points of how I would like Mirage to function - so at least if anyone from Anet reading this forum can keep some overarching vision for Mirage in mind, that is more unique compared with Core and Chrono. Encourage and focus on the following key features:

    • ambush as a foundation mechanic. Make player ambush hit hard and be rewarded for landing. Use Shatters and Clones to further boost player ambush damage/cc through synergetic combos.
    • deception with clones as foundation gameplay. Through making IH a minor trait with clones evading and performing same auto/ambush as player, and use of detargets, and maybe some new clone shuffle ability in shatters. Mirage should be all about emphasising "becoming the clone", and then hitting hard with ambush. To add to this I'd love stow weapon to also do the same for all active clones.
    • ability to put evade frames wherever you want, including while cced or during actions. I actually believe this is an interesting system that forces opponents to change how they plan to land their damage.

    This would be sufficiently different from Core which is all about standard shatter nuke gameplay, and Chrono which should be about aoe support (but they need to do more work with Chrono shatters to make them suitably unique).

    I will edit my post regarding shatters for Mirage - I'm hoping for something like more debuff oriented or synergy with ambushes:

    • for example F1 could provide increased damage to your next ambush attack with increased threshold for each clone shattered, but in turn F1 does less upfront damage or something.

    So this increases synergy between shatter and ambush, and doesn't punish the player for blowing all clones and losing damage on a follow up ambush - because majority of damage will be on the player's ambush.

    Equally I'd love to see a dynamic ambush damage system where:

    • player ambush damage is increased by x amount for each active clone.
      So existence of clones indirectly increases damage by buffing the player's ambush further - increasing direct damage and maybe adding a condi stack etc.

    For things like Sword or Trident ambush it could function as:

    • player ambush daze/stun is increased by +0.25s for each active clone.
      Removing the daze/stun from clones but their existence enhances the cc potential of the player's ambush.

    All this together should provide synergies where you can do combos boosting say player staff ambush to crit for 3-4k and landing a burst of condi - but the clones themselves not directly applying this damage, they would just provide visual distraction/deception and shatter fuel - so the opponent would have to watch for/line of sight the player's attack.

    Edit - I will say of course with Mirage being my favourite class, only character, and pretty much the only reason I play gw2 - it goes without saying that I want it to be left in a good state. So I have quite a vested interest in what happens as I will continue to play it regardless. I edited some of my first post to hopefully make it clearer.
    To be honest I'm actually more concerned with the audio and visual effects they use for eg new shatters - I love the F1 sound effect on Chrono, but there's always a risk that either the sound or visual animation could be annoying - and this more than anything else would be a huge turn off for me. Aesthetics are largely the reason I choose to use or not use something. xD

    those dont even HAVE to be shatters, could be clone buffs, f3. your clones dont take damage for x secounds, f2 get bonuses based on number of clones, f1 give clones retaliation and swap position with a clone.

    I'd love to see more unique F skills, though trouble is the need to function with all the core shatter traits. I'm not sure how they could make many of those traits work otherwise.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Heartpains.7312 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    I said "improved" autos - which ambush attacks are objectively.

    And I did say wanting player ambush to be made properly impactful - shifting damage away from clones - making player ambush actually hit hard so you are rewarded for landing it. And making IH a minor trait - building the entire spec around it both for thematic and gameplay/balance reasons.

    It seems clear they want Core to be the old school standard shatter spec with most powerful shatters, and given Mirage has ambush it is no stretch of the imagination to anticipate shatters being changed to take this into account. F1-F4 on Mirage will be changed at some point, very likely next patch, I would bet coin on it. The question is how should they be changed, and why. Eg F4 - of course I love and prefer the ability to get 4s uninterrupted invuln to secure stomps/resses etc. But given what they did to Continuum Split on Chrono, I would be extremely suprised if Mirage retains that ability.

    It's kind of denial to not expect Anet to do similar treatment for Mirage as they did for Chrono, so I'm going to leave the post up. It is important to at least discuss with the hope they realise that Chrono was nerfed too far, and think deeply about the implications of removal of Illusionary Persona among other things.

    Much hinges on two possibilities:

    • return Illusionary Persona to Chrono (and by extension not remove it from Mirage in the first place)
    • change how clones work

    I have no idea which of these two is going to happen - suffice to say one of them should happen because Chrono currently does not play well enough.

    On the other hand I haven't said anything about dodge when cced - and funnily enough think this is an interesting feature for Mirage that should remain as a primary benefit to the spec.

    Ah come on Curunen, you know VERY well that they take nerfs suggestions and implement them very fast, but any buffs suggestions they forget to place them in patches and just toss them in the garbage can xD
    Please don't give them ideas, even though the reality they will probably kill mirage and will kill me with it.

    After all I am against this tradeoff thing that they came up with out of nowehre, its like it is their way of nerfing everything that almost everyone have aka the expansions so they can introduce new expansion with new OP elites so people have to buy it.

    There is class ehm ehm I will not mention, that its core is stronger than its elites in most of the situations, they can add tradeoff to its core xD

    Jokes aside I am truly against the tradeoffs for any class (Specially with the time they take between each patch)

    I'm fully anticipating Mirage sadly getting the Chrono treatment next patch, with or without our input. :(

    And expecting this being preparation either for new elites or some weird dual classing system (based on the wvw skill swap test) either during or after LW5.

    I think I just want to emphasise certain thematic and mechanical points of how I would like Mirage to function - so at least if anyone from Anet reading this forum can keep some overarching vision for Mirage in mind, that is more unique compared with Core and Chrono. Encourage and focus on the following key features:

    • ambush as a foundation mechanic. Make player ambush hit hard and be rewarded for landing. Use Shatters and Clones to further boost player ambush damage/cc through synergetic combos.
    • deception with clones as foundation gameplay. Through making IH a minor trait with clones evading and performing same auto/ambush as player, and use of detargets, and maybe some new clone shuffle ability in shatters. Mirage should be all about emphasising "becoming the clone", and then hitting hard with ambush. To add to this I'd love stow weapon to also do the same for all active clones.
    • ability to put evade frames wherever you want, including while cced or during actions. I actually believe this is an interesting system that forces opponents to change how they plan to land their damage.

    This would be sufficiently different from Core which is all about standard shatter nuke gameplay, and Chrono which should be about aoe support (but they need to do more work with Chrono shatters to make them suitably unique).

    I will edit my post regarding shatters for Mirage - I'm hoping for something like more debuff oriented or synergy with ambushes:

    • for example F1 could provide increased damage to your next ambush attack with increased threshold for each clone shattered, but in turn F1 does less upfront damage or something.

    So this increases synergy between shatter and ambush, and doesn't punish the player for blowing all clones and losing damage on a follow up ambush - because majority of damage will be on the player's ambush.

    Equally I'd love to see a dynamic ambush damage system where:

    • player ambush damage is increased by x amount for each active clone.
      So existence of clones indirectly increases damage by buffing the player's ambush further - increasing direct damage and maybe adding a condi stack etc.

    For things like Sword or Trident ambush it could function as:

    • player ambush daze/stun is increased by +0.25s for each active clone.
      Removing the daze/stun from clones but their existence enhances the cc potential of the player's ambush.

    All this together should provide synergies where you can do combos boosting say player staff ambush to crit for 3-4k and landing a burst of condi - but the clones themselves not directly applying this damage, they would just provide visual distraction/deception and shatter fuel - so the opponent would have to watch for/line of sight the player's attack.

    Edit - I will say of course with Mirage being my favourite class, only character, and pretty much the only reason I play gw2 - it goes without saying that I want it to be left in a good state. So I have quite a vested interest in what happens as I will continue to play it regardless. I edited some of my first post to hopefully make it clearer.
    To be honest I'm actually more concerned with the audio and visual effects they use for eg new shatters - I love the F1 sound effect on Chrono, but there's always a risk that either the sound or visual animation could be annoying - and this more than anything else would be a huge turn off for me. Aesthetics are largely the reason I choose to use or not use something. xD

    those dont even HAVE to be shatters, could be clone buffs, f3. your clones dont take damage for x secounds, f2 get bonuses based on number of clones, f1 give clones retaliation and swap position with a clone.

    I'd love to see more unique F skills, though trouble is the need to function with all the core shatter traits. I'm not sure how they could make many of those traits work otherwise.

    tbh core shatter bonuses are useless for the most part anyways. only torment on shatter is any good. could be applied over their attacks, or MB remove IH and make shatters force clones to do ambush, while providing other bonuses depending on the shatter.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Heartpains.7312 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    I said "improved" autos - which ambush attacks are objectively.

    And I did say wanting player ambush to be made properly impactful - shifting damage away from clones - making player ambush actually hit hard so you are rewarded for landing it. And making IH a minor trait - building the entire spec around it both for thematic and gameplay/balance reasons.

    It seems clear they want Core to be the old school standard shatter spec with most powerful shatters, and given Mirage has ambush it is no stretch of the imagination to anticipate shatters being changed to take this into account. F1-F4 on Mirage will be changed at some point, very likely next patch, I would bet coin on it. The question is how should they be changed, and why. Eg F4 - of course I love and prefer the ability to get 4s uninterrupted invuln to secure stomps/resses etc. But given what they did to Continuum Split on Chrono, I would be extremely suprised if Mirage retains that ability.

    It's kind of denial to not expect Anet to do similar treatment for Mirage as they did for Chrono, so I'm going to leave the post up. It is important to at least discuss with the hope they realise that Chrono was nerfed too far, and think deeply about the implications of removal of Illusionary Persona among other things.

    Much hinges on two possibilities:

    • return Illusionary Persona to Chrono (and by extension not remove it from Mirage in the first place)
    • change how clones work

    I have no idea which of these two is going to happen - suffice to say one of them should happen because Chrono currently does not play well enough.

    On the other hand I haven't said anything about dodge when cced - and funnily enough think this is an interesting feature for Mirage that should remain as a primary benefit to the spec.

    Ah come on Curunen, you know VERY well that they take nerfs suggestions and implement them very fast, but any buffs suggestions they forget to place them in patches and just toss them in the garbage can xD
    Please don't give them ideas, even though the reality they will probably kill mirage and will kill me with it.

    After all I am against this tradeoff thing that they came up with out of nowehre, its like it is their way of nerfing everything that almost everyone have aka the expansions so they can introduce new expansion with new OP elites so people have to buy it.

    There is class ehm ehm I will not mention, that its core is stronger than its elites in most of the situations, they can add tradeoff to its core xD

    Jokes aside I am truly against the tradeoffs for any class (Specially with the time they take between each patch)

    I'm fully anticipating Mirage sadly getting the Chrono treatment next patch, with or without our input. :(

    And expecting this being preparation either for new elites or some weird dual classing system (based on the wvw skill swap test) either during or after LW5.

    I think I just want to emphasise certain thematic and mechanical points of how I would like Mirage to function - so at least if anyone from Anet reading this forum can keep some overarching vision for Mirage in mind, that is more unique compared with Core and Chrono. Encourage and focus on the following key features:

    • ambush as a foundation mechanic. Make player ambush hit hard and be rewarded for landing. Use Shatters and Clones to further boost player ambush damage/cc through synergetic combos.
    • deception with clones as foundation gameplay. Through making IH a minor trait with clones evading and performing same auto/ambush as player, and use of detargets, and maybe some new clone shuffle ability in shatters. Mirage should be all about emphasising "becoming the clone", and then hitting hard with ambush. To add to this I'd love stow weapon to also do the same for all active clones.
    • ability to put evade frames wherever you want, including while cced or during actions. I actually believe this is an interesting system that forces opponents to change how they plan to land their damage.

    This would be sufficiently different from Core which is all about standard shatter nuke gameplay, and Chrono which should be about aoe support (but they need to do more work with Chrono shatters to make them suitably unique).

    I will edit my post regarding shatters for Mirage - I'm hoping for something like more debuff oriented or synergy with ambushes:

    • for example F1 could provide increased damage to your next ambush attack with increased threshold for each clone shattered, but in turn F1 does less upfront damage or something.

    So this increases synergy between shatter and ambush, and doesn't punish the player for blowing all clones and losing damage on a follow up ambush - because majority of damage will be on the player's ambush.

    Equally I'd love to see a dynamic ambush damage system where:

    • player ambush damage is increased by x amount for each active clone.
      So existence of clones indirectly increases damage by buffing the player's ambush further - increasing direct damage and maybe adding a condi stack etc.

    For things like Sword or Trident ambush it could function as:

    • player ambush daze/stun is increased by +0.25s for each active clone.
      Removing the daze/stun from clones but their existence enhances the cc potential of the player's ambush.

    All this together should provide synergies where you can do combos boosting say player staff ambush to crit for 3-4k and landing a burst of condi - but the clones themselves not directly applying this damage, they would just provide visual distraction/deception and shatter fuel - so the opponent would have to watch for/line of sight the player's attack.

    Edit - I will say of course with Mirage being my favourite class, only character, and pretty much the only reason I play gw2 - it goes without saying that I want it to be left in a good state. So I have quite a vested interest in what happens as I will continue to play it regardless. I edited some of my first post to hopefully make it clearer.
    To be honest I'm actually more concerned with the audio and visual effects they use for eg new shatters - I love the F1 sound effect on Chrono, but there's always a risk that either the sound or visual animation could be annoying - and this more than anything else would be a huge turn off for me. Aesthetics are largely the reason I choose to use or not use something. xD

    those dont even HAVE to be shatters, could be clone buffs, f3. your clones dont take damage for x secounds, f2 get bonuses based on number of clones, f1 give clones retaliation and swap position with a clone.

    I'd love to see more unique F skills, though trouble is the need to function with all the core shatter traits. I'm not sure how they could make many of those traits work otherwise.

    tbh core shatter bonuses are useless for the most part anyways. only torment on shatter is any good. could be applied over their attacks, or MB remove IH and make shatters force clones to do ambush, while providing other bonuses depending on the shatter.

    It would be interesting if F skills on Mirage activated ambush attacks for clones - like orders/commands - kind of what I was imagining Mirage would be at the start. But I assume it's such a huge/impractical amount of change to make all shatter traits function with this, and would also require a change of how mirage cloak works that it's extremely unlikely to happen.

    Realistically they need to ensure all possible build combos work whether they are good builds or not - making sure things like boonstrip on shatter have an effect when using any elite spec.

    Clones gaining mirage cloak with the player is thematic and I strongly want this to stay, along with their ability to at least visually perform the ambush attacks in the same window that the player gets access to their ambush (ie after gaining mirage cloak).

    Interestingly a trick if clones ambush damage/utility is shifted to the player, would be that the player could wait a moment for clones to ambush first - perhaps tricking an opponent into dodging the negligable attacks and then towards the end of the skill window activate their ambush which would connect with the opponent. Of course that hinges on player ambushes hitting hard. I think that would be pretty fun with counterplay (ie watch the player and see when they ambush, learn to filter out from clone ambushes).

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Heartpains.7312 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    I said "improved" autos - which ambush attacks are objectively.

    And I did say wanting player ambush to be made properly impactful - shifting damage away from clones - making player ambush actually hit hard so you are rewarded for landing it. And making IH a minor trait - building the entire spec around it both for thematic and gameplay/balance reasons.

    It seems clear they want Core to be the old school standard shatter spec with most powerful shatters, and given Mirage has ambush it is no stretch of the imagination to anticipate shatters being changed to take this into account. F1-F4 on Mirage will be changed at some point, very likely next patch, I would bet coin on it. The question is how should they be changed, and why. Eg F4 - of course I love and prefer the ability to get 4s uninterrupted invuln to secure stomps/resses etc. But given what they did to Continuum Split on Chrono, I would be extremely suprised if Mirage retains that ability.

    It's kind of denial to not expect Anet to do similar treatment for Mirage as they did for Chrono, so I'm going to leave the post up. It is important to at least discuss with the hope they realise that Chrono was nerfed too far, and think deeply about the implications of removal of Illusionary Persona among other things.

    Much hinges on two possibilities:

    • return Illusionary Persona to Chrono (and by extension not remove it from Mirage in the first place)
    • change how clones work

    I have no idea which of these two is going to happen - suffice to say one of them should happen because Chrono currently does not play well enough.

    On the other hand I haven't said anything about dodge when cced - and funnily enough think this is an interesting feature for Mirage that should remain as a primary benefit to the spec.

    Ah come on Curunen, you know VERY well that they take nerfs suggestions and implement them very fast, but any buffs suggestions they forget to place them in patches and just toss them in the garbage can xD
    Please don't give them ideas, even though the reality they will probably kill mirage and will kill me with it.

    After all I am against this tradeoff thing that they came up with out of nowehre, its like it is their way of nerfing everything that almost everyone have aka the expansions so they can introduce new expansion with new OP elites so people have to buy it.

    There is class ehm ehm I will not mention, that its core is stronger than its elites in most of the situations, they can add tradeoff to its core xD

    Jokes aside I am truly against the tradeoffs for any class (Specially with the time they take between each patch)

    I'm fully anticipating Mirage sadly getting the Chrono treatment next patch, with or without our input. :(

    And expecting this being preparation either for new elites or some weird dual classing system (based on the wvw skill swap test) either during or after LW5.

    I think I just want to emphasise certain thematic and mechanical points of how I would like Mirage to function - so at least if anyone from Anet reading this forum can keep some overarching vision for Mirage in mind, that is more unique compared with Core and Chrono. Encourage and focus on the following key features:

    • ambush as a foundation mechanic. Make player ambush hit hard and be rewarded for landing. Use Shatters and Clones to further boost player ambush damage/cc through synergetic combos.
    • deception with clones as foundation gameplay. Through making IH a minor trait with clones evading and performing same auto/ambush as player, and use of detargets, and maybe some new clone shuffle ability in shatters. Mirage should be all about emphasising "becoming the clone", and then hitting hard with ambush. To add to this I'd love stow weapon to also do the same for all active clones.
    • ability to put evade frames wherever you want, including while cced or during actions. I actually believe this is an interesting system that forces opponents to change how they plan to land their damage.

    This would be sufficiently different from Core which is all about standard shatter nuke gameplay, and Chrono which should be about aoe support (but they need to do more work with Chrono shatters to make them suitably unique).

    I will edit my post regarding shatters for Mirage - I'm hoping for something like more debuff oriented or synergy with ambushes:

    • for example F1 could provide increased damage to your next ambush attack with increased threshold for each clone shattered, but in turn F1 does less upfront damage or something.

    So this increases synergy between shatter and ambush, and doesn't punish the player for blowing all clones and losing damage on a follow up ambush - because majority of damage will be on the player's ambush.

    Equally I'd love to see a dynamic ambush damage system where:

    • player ambush damage is increased by x amount for each active clone.
      So existence of clones indirectly increases damage by buffing the player's ambush further - increasing direct damage and maybe adding a condi stack etc.

    For things like Sword or Trident ambush it could function as:

    • player ambush daze/stun is increased by +0.25s for each active clone.
      Removing the daze/stun from clones but their existence enhances the cc potential of the player's ambush.

    All this together should provide synergies where you can do combos boosting say player staff ambush to crit for 3-4k and landing a burst of condi - but the clones themselves not directly applying this damage, they would just provide visual distraction/deception and shatter fuel - so the opponent would have to watch for/line of sight the player's attack.

    Edit - I will say of course with Mirage being my favourite class, only character, and pretty much the only reason I play gw2 - it goes without saying that I want it to be left in a good state. So I have quite a vested interest in what happens as I will continue to play it regardless. I edited some of my first post to hopefully make it clearer.
    To be honest I'm actually more concerned with the audio and visual effects they use for eg new shatters - I love the F1 sound effect on Chrono, but there's always a risk that either the sound or visual animation could be annoying - and this more than anything else would be a huge turn off for me. Aesthetics are largely the reason I choose to use or not use something. xD

    those dont even HAVE to be shatters, could be clone buffs, f3. your clones dont take damage for x secounds, f2 get bonuses based on number of clones, f1 give clones retaliation and swap position with a clone.

    I'd love to see more unique F skills, though trouble is the need to function with all the core shatter traits. I'm not sure how they could make many of those traits work otherwise.

    tbh core shatter bonuses are useless for the most part anyways. only torment on shatter is any good. could be applied over their attacks, or MB remove IH and make shatters force clones to do ambush, while providing other bonuses depending on the shatter.

    It would be interesting if F skills on Mirage activated ambush attacks for clones - like orders/commands - kind of what I was imagining Mirage would be at the start. But I assume it's such a huge/impractical amount of change to make all shatter traits function with this, and would also require a change of how mirage cloak works that it's extremely unlikely to happen.

    Realistically they need to ensure all possible build combos work whether they are good builds or not - making sure things like boonstrip on shatter have an effect when using any elite spec.

    Clones gaining mirage cloak with the player is thematic and I strongly want this to stay, along with their ability to at least visually perform the ambush attacks in the same window that the player gets access to their ambush (ie after gaining mirage cloak).

    Interestingly a trick if clones ambush damage/utility is shifted to the player, would be that the player could wait a moment for clones to ambush first - perhaps tricking an opponent into dodging the negligable attacks and then towards the end of the skill window activate their ambush which would connect with the opponent. Of course that hinges on player ambushes hitting hard. I think that would be pretty fun with counterplay (ie watch the player and see when they ambush, learn to filter out from clone ambushes).

    they could make ambush from clones deliver the effect

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭

    ‘None’/‘no more’ or ‘no more nerfs’, if it exists, since playing power on mirage is distinctly trashier than on core in PvE. Unless you want even more PvP/condi related nerfs, that’s concerning but okay... I’m fine with that, I guess.

    Or else it has to come with a huge compensation package, which I’m not gonna cross my fingers on.

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Virtuality.8351 said:
    I heard there must be 15 characters to be regarded as a legitimate post.

    Jokes aside, I am pretty worried about this one particularly after the latest nerf hammer hit on Chronomancer. Maybe it'd be better if we discuss this and maybe get the attention of the balance team than just sit and wait for the hammer to drop again.

    Sorry man, we already tried to make suggestions and not only were they largely ignored, but that OP was troll baited and banned for his trouble. Not falling for this trap again.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    Mirage should just loose the ability to gain clones out off phantasm. IH wouldn’t get so obnoxious, especially with the staff weapon, which can basically summon three clones on top of the ability to summon clones through deceptive evasion.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @flog.3485 said:
    Mirage should just loose the ability to gain clones out off phantasm. IH wouldn’t get so obnoxious, especially with the staff weapon, which can basically summon three clones on top of the ability to summon clones through deceptive evasion.

    sounds reasonable, what do we get in return ?

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2019

    @flog.3485 said:
    Mirage should just loose the ability to gain clones out off phantasm. IH wouldn’t get so obnoxious, especially with the staff weapon, which can basically summon three clones on top of the ability to summon clones through deceptive evasion.

    What is your problem with staff? That they ruined good phantasm, made it do 0 damage and humbly given us two phantasm that stare at you ? 4rd skill is a filler, thats a good utility weapon and phantasm is there purely to make clones.
    I would agree there is no trade off at the moment when Mirage would be able to dodge in every direction without penalty and wouldnt had grandmaster minor trait as poor banaid for a new clunky evade, that should have came in a package with MC, not occupying entire minor grandmaster trait.
    If your issue that IH, few of us and not mesmer-mains suggested to transfer damage to mesmer himself and remove it from clones entirely, so we wouldnt need to play with it.
    The moment they disable evade in stun, MC would turn in a real burden but still would be better than dead chrono

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:
    Mirage should just loose the ability to gain clones out off phantasm. IH wouldn’t get so obnoxious, especially with the staff weapon, which can basically summon three clones on top of the ability to summon clones through deceptive evasion.

    What is your problem with staff? That they ruined good phantasm, made it do 0 damage and humbly given us two phantasm that stare at you ? 4rd skill is a filler, thats a good utility weapon and phantasm is there purely to make clones.
    I would agree there is no trade off at the moment when Mirage would be able to dodge in every direction without penalty and wouldnt had grandmaster minor trait as poor banaid for a new clunky evade, that should have came in a package with MC, not occupying entire minor grandmaster trait.
    If your issue that IH, few of us and not mesmer-mains suggested to transfer damage to mesmer himself and remove it from clones entirely, so we wouldnt need to play with it.
    The moment they disable evade in stun, MC would turn in a real burden but still would be better than dead chrono

    Agreed and I certainly don't want to be pigeonholed into Deceptive Evasion any further.

    Already it's bad enough that try to play Axe or Staff without Deceptive Evasion totally sucks. Losing the ability for phantasms to become clones would just make DE even more mandatory.

    Right now Axe is not playable without IH and DE together. I'd argue Staff also. This is a huge problem that needs to be addressed - before they start changing other things.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    @Heartpains.7312 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    I said "improved" autos - which ambush attacks are objectively.

    And I did say wanting player ambush to be made properly impactful - shifting damage away from clones - making player ambush actually hit hard so you are rewarded for landing it. And making IH a minor trait - building the entire spec around it both for thematic and gameplay/balance reasons.

    It seems clear they want Core to be the old school standard shatter spec with most powerful shatters, and given Mirage has ambush it is no stretch of the imagination to anticipate shatters being changed to take this into account. F1-F4 on Mirage will be changed at some point, very likely next patch, I would bet coin on it. The question is how should they be changed, and why. Eg F4 - of course I love and prefer the ability to get 4s uninterrupted invuln to secure stomps/resses etc. But given what they did to Continuum Split on Chrono, I would be extremely suprised if Mirage retains that ability.

    It's kind of denial to not expect Anet to do similar treatment for Mirage as they did for Chrono, so I'm going to leave the post up. It is important to at least discuss with the hope they realise that Chrono was nerfed too far, and think deeply about the implications of removal of Illusionary Persona among other things.

    Much hinges on two possibilities:

    • return Illusionary Persona to Chrono (and by extension not remove it from Mirage in the first place)
    • change how clones work

    I have no idea which of these two is going to happen - suffice to say one of them should happen because Chrono currently does not play well enough.

    On the other hand I haven't said anything about dodge when cced - and funnily enough think this is an interesting feature for Mirage that should remain as a primary benefit to the spec.

    Ah come on Curunen, you know VERY well that they take nerfs suggestions and implement them very fast, but any buffs suggestions they forget to place them in patches and just toss them in the garbage can xD
    Please don't give them ideas, even though the reality they will probably kill mirage and will kill me with it.

    After all I am against this tradeoff thing that they came up with out of nowehre, its like it is their way of nerfing everything that almost everyone have aka the expansions so they can introduce new expansion with new OP elites so people have to buy it.

    There is class ehm ehm I will not mention, that its core is stronger than its elites in most of the situations, they can add tradeoff to its core xD

    Jokes aside I am truly against the tradeoffs for any class (Specially with the time they take between each patch)

    I'm fully anticipating Mirage sadly getting the Chrono treatment next patch, with or without our input. :(

    And expecting this being preparation either for new elites or some weird dual classing system (based on the wvw skill swap test) either during or after LW5.

    I think I just want to emphasise certain thematic and mechanical points of how I would like Mirage to function - so at least if anyone from Anet reading this forum can keep some overarching vision for Mirage in mind, that is more unique compared with Core and Chrono. Encourage and focus on the following key features:

    • ambush as a foundation mechanic. Make player ambush hit hard and be rewarded for landing. Use Shatters and Clones to further boost player ambush damage/cc through synergetic combos.
    • deception with clones as foundation gameplay. Through making IH a minor trait with clones evading and performing same auto/ambush as player, and use of detargets, and maybe some new clone shuffle ability in shatters. Mirage should be all about emphasising "becoming the clone", and then hitting hard with ambush. To add to this I'd love stow weapon to also do the same for all active clones.
    • ability to put evade frames wherever you want, including while cced or during actions. I actually believe this is an interesting system that forces opponents to change how they plan to land their damage.

    This would be sufficiently different from Core which is all about standard shatter nuke gameplay, and Chrono which should be about aoe support (but they need to do more work with Chrono shatters to make them suitably unique).

    I will edit my post regarding shatters for Mirage - I'm hoping for something like more debuff oriented or synergy with ambushes:

    • for example F1 could provide increased damage to your next ambush attack with increased threshold for each clone shattered, but in turn F1 does less upfront damage or something.

    So this increases synergy between shatter and ambush, and doesn't punish the player for blowing all clones and losing damage on a follow up ambush - because majority of damage will be on the player's ambush.

    Equally I'd love to see a dynamic ambush damage system where:

    • player ambush damage is increased by x amount for each active clone.
      So existence of clones indirectly increases damage by buffing the player's ambush further - increasing direct damage and maybe adding a condi stack etc.

    For things like Sword or Trident ambush it could function as:

    • player ambush daze/stun is increased by +0.25s for each active clone.
      Removing the daze/stun from clones but their existence enhances the cc potential of the player's ambush.

    All this together should provide synergies where you can do combos boosting say player staff ambush to crit for 3-4k and landing a burst of condi - but the clones themselves not directly applying this damage, they would just provide visual distraction/deception and shatter fuel - so the opponent would have to watch for/line of sight the player's attack.

    Edit - I will say of course with Mirage being my favourite class, only character, and pretty much the only reason I play gw2 - it goes without saying that I want it to be left in a good state. So I have quite a vested interest in what happens as I will continue to play it regardless. I edited some of my first post to hopefully make it clearer.
    To be honest I'm actually more concerned with the audio and visual effects they use for eg new shatters - I love the F1 sound effect on Chrono, but there's always a risk that either the sound or visual animation could be annoying - and this more than anything else would be a huge turn off for me. Aesthetics are largely the reason I choose to use or not use something. xD

    those dont even HAVE to be shatters, could be clone buffs, f3. your clones dont take damage for x secounds, f2 get bonuses based on number of clones, f1 give clones retaliation and swap position with a clone.

    I'd love to see more unique F skills, though trouble is the need to function with all the core shatter traits. I'm not sure how they could make many of those traits work otherwise.

    tbh core shatter bonuses are useless for the most part anyways. only torment on shatter is any good. could be applied over their attacks, or MB remove IH and make shatters force clones to do ambush, while providing other bonuses depending on the shatter.

    It would be interesting if F skills on Mirage activated ambush attacks for clones - like orders/commands - kind of what I was imagining Mirage would be at the start. But I assume it's such a huge/impractical amount of change to make all shatter traits function with this, and would also require a change of how mirage cloak works that it's extremely unlikely to happen.

    Realistically they need to ensure all possible build combos work whether they are good builds or not - making sure things like boonstrip on shatter have an effect when using any elite spec.

    Clones gaining mirage cloak with the player is thematic and I strongly want this to stay, along with their ability to at least visually perform the ambush attacks in the same window that the player gets access to their ambush (ie after gaining mirage cloak).

    Interestingly a trick if clones ambush damage/utility is shifted to the player, would be that the player could wait a moment for clones to ambush first - perhaps tricking an opponent into dodging the negligable attacks and then towards the end of the skill window activate their ambush which would connect with the opponent. Of course that hinges on player ambushes hitting hard. I think that would be pretty fun with counterplay (ie watch the player and see when they ambush, learn to filter out from clone ambushes).

    they could make ambush from clones deliver the effect

    This is what I hoped mirage would function as initially, however I imagine it is likely a ridiculous amount of work - maybe not even possible depending on how they have all the skills written - and given all the patches there have ever been, it seems unlikely for an overhaul on this scale.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2019

    Neveremind. xD

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @flog.3485 said:
    Mirage should just loose the ability to gain clones out off phantasm. IH wouldn’t get so obnoxious, especially with the staff weapon, which can basically summon three clones on top of the ability to summon clones through deceptive evasion.

    sounds reasonable, what do we get in return ?

    Personally I would buff Riddle of sand and the axe trait a little bit.
    That is the problem with mirage, its damage is way too much reliant on clones imo and with IH, it is an issue.

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:
    Mirage should just loose the ability to gain clones out off phantasm. IH wouldn’t get so obnoxious, especially with the staff weapon, which can basically summon three clones on top of the ability to summon clones through deceptive evasion.

    What is your problem with staff? That they ruined good phantasm, made it do 0 damage and humbly given us two phantasm that stare at you ? 4rd skill is a filler, thats a good utility weapon and phantasm is there purely to make clones.
    I would agree there is no trade off at the moment when Mirage would be able to dodge in every direction without penalty and wouldnt had grandmaster minor trait as poor banaid for a new clunky evade, that should have came in a package with MC, not occupying entire minor grandmaster trait.
    If your issue that IH, few of us and not mesmer-mains suggested to transfer damage to mesmer himself and remove it from clones entirely, so we wouldnt need to play with it.
    The moment they disable evade in stun, MC would turn in a real burden but still would be better than dead chrono

    The problem with staff is that it summons too much clones, which is the main source for mirage to apply damages and for the sake of visual clutter, I think it would be beneficial to nerf it. The point is not to be pigeonholed into deceptive evasion for mirage but rather to have other damage sources for mirage (through trait choices) that are not necessarily bound to clones: talking about riddle of sand and mirrored axes here.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2019

    @flog.3485 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @flog.3485 said:
    Mirage should just loose the ability to gain clones out off phantasm. IH wouldn’t get so obnoxious, especially with the staff weapon, which can basically summon three clones on top of the ability to summon clones through deceptive evasion.

    sounds reasonable, what do we get in return ?

    Personally I would buff Riddle of sand and the axe trait a little bit.
    That is the problem with mirage, its damage is way too much reliant on clones imo and with IH, it is an issue.

    buffing that wont fix anything, becouse confusion, is the worst damaging condition in the game, by far.
    if anything they should buff shatters, EXPECIALLY f2, on full condi damage, f1 deals more then f2 and thats just stupid.
    without torment trait using shatters on cmirage is a waste of damage, only used after using f4 to dryshatter for vigor and 1500dmg max, amazing class mechanic

    Also, if you nerf IH and give back damage with riddle of the sand, PVE condi mirage ends up with big loss in damage due to reliance on selfdeception or whatever that trait is called

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @flog.3485 said:
    The point is not to be pigeonholed into deceptive evasion for mirage but rather to have other damage sources for mirage (through trait choices) that are not necessarily bound to clones: talking about riddle of sand and mirrored axes here.

    Your "brilliant" suggestions do the opposite, I honestly dont feel like I can argue with people that have no clue what they are talking about... :(

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @flog.3485 said:
    Mirage should just loose the ability to gain clones out off phantasm. IH wouldn’t get so obnoxious, especially with the staff weapon, which can basically summon three clones on top of the ability to summon clones through deceptive evasion.

    sounds reasonable, what do we get in return ?

    Personally I would buff Riddle of sand and the axe trait a little bit.
    That is the problem with mirage, its damage is way too much reliant on clones imo and with IH, it is an issue.

    buffing that wont fix anything, becouse confusion, is the worst damaging condition in the game, by far.
    if anything they should buff shatters, EXPECIALLY f2, on full condi damage, f1 deals more then f2 and thats just stupid.
    without torment trait using shatters on cmirage is a waste of damage, only used after using f4 to dryshatter for vigor and 1500dmg max, amazing class mechanic

    Also, if you nerf IH and give back damage with riddle of the sand, PVE condi mirage ends up with big loss in damage due to reliance on selfdeception or whatever that trait is called

    Of course when I talked about buffing it, I did not really consider keeping riddle of sand as it is. More confusion when you can already apply it through the illusion traitline and scepter 3 isn’t very relevant.
    I was more thinking of reworking it. Something along the lines of:
    -the ambush attack of your clones do more damages (something similar to the domination trait that buff phantasm attack)
    -after performing an ambush attack, you gain a buff that increases your personal damages for x seconds.

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:
    The point is not to be pigeonholed into deceptive evasion for mirage but rather to have other damage sources for mirage (through trait choices) that are not necessarily bound to clones: talking about riddle of sand and mirrored axes here.

    Your "brilliant" suggestions do the opposite, I honestly dont feel like I can argue with people that have no clue what they are talking about... :(

    Oh I have a clue of what I am talking about. I am talking about the over reliance to do damages and gain sustain through clones (especially for staff chaos playstyle),which in turn makes it unfun to play against mirage due to general visual clutter.

    Personally I can not understand how you can come to the conclusion that the old staff phantasm was better than what we have now. I mean yeah it did more damages but the damages would require a heavy amount of conditions in the first place to make it worth and it would also assume that the very slow moving projectile would never be blocked, evaded, reflected or that it would reliably reach the target.
    Here we have 2 phantasm that do damages reliably while having the luxury of becoming clones that you can ambush and shatter. And talking about lack of damages, did you even try to trait it for more damages ?

  • A worse dodge and an useless traitline apart from IH is a huge tradeoff already.
    What I would like to be: a better dodge (1sec MC+superspeed) and a reworked traitline with IH as a minor.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @flog.3485 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:
    The point is not to be pigeonholed into deceptive evasion for mirage but rather to have other damage sources for mirage (through trait choices) that are not necessarily bound to clones: talking about riddle of sand and mirrored axes here.

    Your "brilliant" suggestions do the opposite, I honestly dont feel like I can argue with people that have no clue what they are talking about... :(

    Oh I have a clue of what I am talking about. I am talking about the over reliance to do damages and gain sustain through clones (especially for staff chaos playstyle),which in turn makes it unfun to play against mirage due to general visual clutter.

    Personally I can not understand how you can come to the conclusion that the old staff phantasm was better than what we have now. I mean yeah it did more damages but the damages would require a heavy amount of conditions in the first place to make it worth and it would also assume that the very slow moving projectile would never be blocked, evaded, reflected or that it would reliably reach the target.
    Here we have 2 phantasm that do damages reliably while having the luxury of becoming clones that you can ambush and shatter. And talking about lack of damages, did you even try to trait it for more damages ?

    you talk about wanting mesmers to rely on clones less, and you mention buffing mirrored axes, trait that has HEAVY reliance on clones to deal damage, on top of that it is an axe, kitten weapon in the first place.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭

    Add core mesmer an F5 shatter and call it a day like revenant :)

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @flog.3485 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:
    The point is not to be pigeonholed into deceptive evasion for mirage but rather to have other damage sources for mirage (through trait choices) that are not necessarily bound to clones: talking about riddle of sand and mirrored axes here.

    Your "brilliant" suggestions do the opposite, I honestly dont feel like I can argue with people that have no clue what they are talking about... :(

    Oh I have a clue of what I am talking about. I am talking about the over reliance to do damages and gain sustain through clones (especially for staff chaos playstyle),which in turn makes it unfun to play against mirage due to general visual clutter.

    Thats what you think. Why I have to explain why stupid idea is stupid ... :(
    Making no clones = less/no shatters which interferes with "Anet" grand vision that mesmers must use shatters and have active playstyle.
    To not rely on clones they could buff personal ambush and make clone ambush condis lasts 0.0001s and its done, identify real mesmer, dodge his ambush.

    Personally I can not understand how you can come to the conclusion that the old staff phantasm was better than what we have now.

    Old phantasm if hit did tons of damage (casually throwing 8k crits on power), make projectile actually track your target and it would be strong as hell but its pointless to discuss as they will never revert

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 10, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:
    The point is not to be pigeonholed into deceptive evasion for mirage but rather to have other damage sources for mirage (through trait choices) that are not necessarily bound to clones: talking about riddle of sand and mirrored axes here.

    Your "brilliant" suggestions do the opposite, I honestly dont feel like I can argue with people that have no clue what they are talking about... :(

    Oh I have a clue of what I am talking about. I am talking about the over reliance to do damages and gain sustain through clones (especially for staff chaos playstyle),which in turn makes it unfun to play against mirage due to general visual clutter.

    Thats what you think. Why I have to explain why stupid idea is stupid ... :(
    Making no clones = less/no shatters which interferes with "Anet" grand vision that mesmers must use shatters and have active playstyle.
    To not rely on clones they could buff personal ambush and make clone ambush condis lasts 0.0001s and its done, identify real mesmer, dodge his ambush.

    Personally I can not understand how you can come to the conclusion that the old staff phantasm was better than what we have now.

    Old phantasm if hit did tons of damage (casually throwing 8k crits on power), make projectile actually track your target and it would be strong as hell but its pointless to discuss as they will never revert

    Maybe but with IP we still can use shatters without having no clones. We still can summon clones without relying on the ability to get clones out off phantasm : we have got utility skills that summon clones, we have got sword ambushes and sword 3, we still have staff 2, the scepter and axe skills, as well the deceptive evasion trait in dueling that, let's be real here, everybody uses.

    Edit: I also wanted to point out that, for mesmer it is also pure powercreep to have phantasm turn into clones because as it stands, phantasm are already doing the damages that will pile up to the damages the clones will apply, no matter if you either play condi or power.

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:
    The point is not to be pigeonholed into deceptive evasion for mirage but rather to have other damage sources for mirage (through trait choices) that are not necessarily bound to clones: talking about riddle of sand and mirrored axes here.

    Your "brilliant" suggestions do the opposite, I honestly dont feel like I can argue with people that have no clue what they are talking about... :(

    Oh I have a clue of what I am talking about. I am talking about the over reliance to do damages and gain sustain through clones (especially for staff chaos playstyle),which in turn makes it unfun to play against mirage due to general visual clutter.

    Personally I can not understand how you can come to the conclusion that the old staff phantasm was better than what we have now. I mean yeah it did more damages but the damages would require a heavy amount of conditions in the first place to make it worth and it would also assume that the very slow moving projectile would never be blocked, evaded, reflected or that it would reliably reach the target.
    Here we have 2 phantasm that do damages reliably while having the luxury of becoming clones that you can ambush and shatter. And talking about lack of damages, did you even try to trait it for more damages ?

    you talk about wanting mesmers to rely on clones less, and you mention buffing mirrored axes, trait that has HEAVY reliance on clones to deal damage, on top of that it is an axe, kitten weapon in the first place.

    When I talked about updating the skills I never said the traits should keep the same mechanism. But anyway, yes, maybe this trait doesn't need to be changed.

  • @flog.3485 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:
    The point is not to be pigeonholed into deceptive evasion for mirage but rather to have other damage sources for mirage (through trait choices) that are not necessarily bound to clones: talking about riddle of sand and mirrored axes here.

    Your "brilliant" suggestions do the opposite, I honestly dont feel like I can argue with people that have no clue what they are talking about... :(

    Oh I have a clue of what I am talking about. I am talking about the over reliance to do damages and gain sustain through clones (especially for staff chaos playstyle),which in turn makes it unfun to play against mirage due to general visual clutter.

    Thats what you think. Why I have to explain why stupid idea is stupid ... :(
    Making no clones = less/no shatters which interferes with "Anet" grand vision that mesmers must use shatters and have active playstyle.
    To not rely on clones they could buff personal ambush and make clone ambush condis lasts 0.0001s and its done, identify real mesmer, dodge his ambush.

    Personally I can not understand how you can come to the conclusion that the old staff phantasm was better than what we have now.

    Old phantasm if hit did tons of damage (casually throwing 8k crits on power), make projectile actually track your target and it would be strong as hell but its pointless to discuss as they will never revert

    Maybe but with IP we still can use shatters without having no clones. We still can summon clones without relying on the ability to get clones out off phantasm : we have got utility skills that summon clones, we have got sword ambushes and sword 3, we still have staff 2 as well the deceptive evasion trait in dueling that, let's be real here, everybody uses.

    The reason deceptive evasion is so used its because it is the only reliable way of producing clones. When illusionary reversion was good no one cared about deceptive evasion, if self deception and deception skills were good no one would care about deceptive evasion.

    Just revert the phantasms to the old shatterable ones (won't happen but w/e).

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lagosta.9683 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:
    The point is not to be pigeonholed into deceptive evasion for mirage but rather to have other damage sources for mirage (through trait choices) that are not necessarily bound to clones: talking about riddle of sand and mirrored axes here.

    Your "brilliant" suggestions do the opposite, I honestly dont feel like I can argue with people that have no clue what they are talking about... :(

    Oh I have a clue of what I am talking about. I am talking about the over reliance to do damages and gain sustain through clones (especially for staff chaos playstyle),which in turn makes it unfun to play against mirage due to general visual clutter.

    Thats what you think. Why I have to explain why stupid idea is stupid ... :(
    Making no clones = less/no shatters which interferes with "Anet" grand vision that mesmers must use shatters and have active playstyle.
    To not rely on clones they could buff personal ambush and make clone ambush condis lasts 0.0001s and its done, identify real mesmer, dodge his ambush.

    Personally I can not understand how you can come to the conclusion that the old staff phantasm was better than what we have now.

    Old phantasm if hit did tons of damage (casually throwing 8k crits on power), make projectile actually track your target and it would be strong as hell but its pointless to discuss as they will never revert

    Maybe but with IP we still can use shatters without having no clones. We still can summon clones without relying on the ability to get clones out off phantasm : we have got utility skills that summon clones, we have got sword ambushes and sword 3, we still have staff 2 as well the deceptive evasion trait in dueling that, let's be real here, everybody uses.

    The reason deceptive evasion is so used its because it is the only reliable way of producing clones. When illusionary reversion was good no one cared about deceptive evasion, if self deception and deception skills were good no one would care about deceptive evasion.

    Just revert the phantasms to the old shatterable ones (won't happen but w/e).

    Why are you talking about illusionary reversion for chrono ? I am purely talking about mirage trade off here.

  • @flog.3485 said:

    @Lagosta.9683 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:
    The point is not to be pigeonholed into deceptive evasion for mirage but rather to have other damage sources for mirage (through trait choices) that are not necessarily bound to clones: talking about riddle of sand and mirrored axes here.

    Your "brilliant" suggestions do the opposite, I honestly dont feel like I can argue with people that have no clue what they are talking about... :(

    Oh I have a clue of what I am talking about. I am talking about the over reliance to do damages and gain sustain through clones (especially for staff chaos playstyle),which in turn makes it unfun to play against mirage due to general visual clutter.

    Thats what you think. Why I have to explain why stupid idea is stupid ... :(
    Making no clones = less/no shatters which interferes with "Anet" grand vision that mesmers must use shatters and have active playstyle.
    To not rely on clones they could buff personal ambush and make clone ambush condis lasts 0.0001s and its done, identify real mesmer, dodge his ambush.

    Personally I can not understand how you can come to the conclusion that the old staff phantasm was better than what we have now.

    Old phantasm if hit did tons of damage (casually throwing 8k crits on power), make projectile actually track your target and it would be strong as hell but its pointless to discuss as they will never revert

    Maybe but with IP we still can use shatters without having no clones. We still can summon clones without relying on the ability to get clones out off phantasm : we have got utility skills that summon clones, we have got sword ambushes and sword 3, we still have staff 2 as well the deceptive evasion trait in dueling that, let's be real here, everybody uses.

    The reason deceptive evasion is so used its because it is the only reliable way of producing clones. When illusionary reversion was good no one cared about deceptive evasion, if self deception and deception skills were good no one would care about deceptive evasion.

    Just revert the phantasms to the old shatterable ones (won't happen but w/e).

    Why are you talking about illusionary reversion for chrono ? I am purely talking about mirage trade off here.

    Getting to the point why deceptive evasion is mandatory.
    In case of mirage because self deception and deception skills are garbage.

  • A good trade-off would be ; When you are Mirage, you cant pvp. Gotta keep it simple.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Alyster.9470 said:
    A good trade-off would be ; When you are Mirage, you cant pvp. Gotta keep it simple.

    IH removed from the game pending rework, see you in 3 months /s

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lagosta.9683 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @Lagosta.9683 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:
    The point is not to be pigeonholed into deceptive evasion for mirage but rather to have other damage sources for mirage (through trait choices) that are not necessarily bound to clones: talking about riddle of sand and mirrored axes here.

    Your "brilliant" suggestions do the opposite, I honestly dont feel like I can argue with people that have no clue what they are talking about... :(

    Oh I have a clue of what I am talking about. I am talking about the over reliance to do damages and gain sustain through clones (especially for staff chaos playstyle),which in turn makes it unfun to play against mirage due to general visual clutter.

    Thats what you think. Why I have to explain why stupid idea is stupid ... :(
    Making no clones = less/no shatters which interferes with "Anet" grand vision that mesmers must use shatters and have active playstyle.
    To not rely on clones they could buff personal ambush and make clone ambush condis lasts 0.0001s and its done, identify real mesmer, dodge his ambush.

    Personally I can not understand how you can come to the conclusion that the old staff phantasm was better than what we have now.

    Old phantasm if hit did tons of damage (casually throwing 8k crits on power), make projectile actually track your target and it would be strong as hell but its pointless to discuss as they will never revert

    Maybe but with IP we still can use shatters without having no clones. We still can summon clones without relying on the ability to get clones out off phantasm : we have got utility skills that summon clones, we have got sword ambushes and sword 3, we still have staff 2 as well the deceptive evasion trait in dueling that, let's be real here, everybody uses.

    The reason deceptive evasion is so used its because it is the only reliable way of producing clones. When illusionary reversion was good no one cared about deceptive evasion, if self deception and deception skills were good no one would care about deceptive evasion.

    Just revert the phantasms to the old shatterable ones (won't happen but w/e).

    Why are you talking about illusionary reversion for chrono ? I am purely talking about mirage trade off here.

    Getting to the point why deceptive evasion is mandatory.
    In case of mirage because self deception and deception skills are garbage.

    Yes, I would agree with that too. Deception skills could see some buffs.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @flog.3485 said:

    @Lagosta.9683 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @Lagosta.9683 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:
    The point is not to be pigeonholed into deceptive evasion for mirage but rather to have other damage sources for mirage (through trait choices) that are not necessarily bound to clones: talking about riddle of sand and mirrored axes here.

    Your "brilliant" suggestions do the opposite, I honestly dont feel like I can argue with people that have no clue what they are talking about... :(

    Oh I have a clue of what I am talking about. I am talking about the over reliance to do damages and gain sustain through clones (especially for staff chaos playstyle),which in turn makes it unfun to play against mirage due to general visual clutter.

    Thats what you think. Why I have to explain why stupid idea is stupid ... :(
    Making no clones = less/no shatters which interferes with "Anet" grand vision that mesmers must use shatters and have active playstyle.
    To not rely on clones they could buff personal ambush and make clone ambush condis lasts 0.0001s and its done, identify real mesmer, dodge his ambush.

    Personally I can not understand how you can come to the conclusion that the old staff phantasm was better than what we have now.

    Old phantasm if hit did tons of damage (casually throwing 8k crits on power), make projectile actually track your target and it would be strong as hell but its pointless to discuss as they will never revert

    Maybe but with IP we still can use shatters without having no clones. We still can summon clones without relying on the ability to get clones out off phantasm : we have got utility skills that summon clones, we have got sword ambushes and sword 3, we still have staff 2 as well the deceptive evasion trait in dueling that, let's be real here, everybody uses.

    The reason deceptive evasion is so used its because it is the only reliable way of producing clones. When illusionary reversion was good no one cared about deceptive evasion, if self deception and deception skills were good no one would care about deceptive evasion.

    Just revert the phantasms to the old shatterable ones (won't happen but w/e).

    Why are you talking about illusionary reversion for chrono ? I am purely talking about mirage trade off here.

    Getting to the point why deceptive evasion is mandatory.
    In case of mirage because self deception and deception skills are garbage.

    Yes, I would agree with that too. Deception skills could see some buffs.

    Self deception doesnt just give a clone, you must have one alrdy, pure garbage, just like deceptions themselves (except heal)

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @Lagosta.9683 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @Lagosta.9683 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:
    The point is not to be pigeonholed into deceptive evasion for mirage but rather to have other damage sources for mirage (through trait choices) that are not necessarily bound to clones: talking about riddle of sand and mirrored axes here.

    Your "brilliant" suggestions do the opposite, I honestly dont feel like I can argue with people that have no clue what they are talking about... :(

    Oh I have a clue of what I am talking about. I am talking about the over reliance to do damages and gain sustain through clones (especially for staff chaos playstyle),which in turn makes it unfun to play against mirage due to general visual clutter.

    Thats what you think. Why I have to explain why stupid idea is stupid ... :(
    Making no clones = less/no shatters which interferes with "Anet" grand vision that mesmers must use shatters and have active playstyle.
    To not rely on clones they could buff personal ambush and make clone ambush condis lasts 0.0001s and its done, identify real mesmer, dodge his ambush.

    Personally I can not understand how you can come to the conclusion that the old staff phantasm was better than what we have now.

    Old phantasm if hit did tons of damage (casually throwing 8k crits on power), make projectile actually track your target and it would be strong as hell but its pointless to discuss as they will never revert

    Maybe but with IP we still can use shatters without having no clones. We still can summon clones without relying on the ability to get clones out off phantasm : we have got utility skills that summon clones, we have got sword ambushes and sword 3, we still have staff 2 as well the deceptive evasion trait in dueling that, let's be real here, everybody uses.

    The reason deceptive evasion is so used its because it is the only reliable way of producing clones. When illusionary reversion was good no one cared about deceptive evasion, if self deception and deception skills were good no one would care about deceptive evasion.

    Just revert the phantasms to the old shatterable ones (won't happen but w/e).

    Why are you talking about illusionary reversion for chrono ? I am purely talking about mirage trade off here.

    Getting to the point why deceptive evasion is mandatory.
    In case of mirage because self deception and deception skills are garbage.

    Yes, I would agree with that too. Deception skills could see some buffs.

    Self deception doesnt just give a clone, you must have one alrdy, pure garbage, just like deceptions themselves (except heal)

    Honestly they should move away from the idea of having traits that give more clones in elite specs. When these traits are too strong, it just powercreeps deceptive evasion. When it is too weak, it is just not worth taking and in PvP, players will just play deceptive evasion anyway.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @flog.3485 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @Lagosta.9683 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @Lagosta.9683 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:
    The point is not to be pigeonholed into deceptive evasion for mirage but rather to have other damage sources for mirage (through trait choices) that are not necessarily bound to clones: talking about riddle of sand and mirrored axes here.

    Your "brilliant" suggestions do the opposite, I honestly dont feel like I can argue with people that have no clue what they are talking about... :(

    Oh I have a clue of what I am talking about. I am talking about the over reliance to do damages and gain sustain through clones (especially for staff chaos playstyle),which in turn makes it unfun to play against mirage due to general visual clutter.

    Thats what you think. Why I have to explain why stupid idea is stupid ... :(
    Making no clones = less/no shatters which interferes with "Anet" grand vision that mesmers must use shatters and have active playstyle.
    To not rely on clones they could buff personal ambush and make clone ambush condis lasts 0.0001s and its done, identify real mesmer, dodge his ambush.

    Personally I can not understand how you can come to the conclusion that the old staff phantasm was better than what we have now.

    Old phantasm if hit did tons of damage (casually throwing 8k crits on power), make projectile actually track your target and it would be strong as hell but its pointless to discuss as they will never revert

    Maybe but with IP we still can use shatters without having no clones. We still can summon clones without relying on the ability to get clones out off phantasm : we have got utility skills that summon clones, we have got sword ambushes and sword 3, we still have staff 2 as well the deceptive evasion trait in dueling that, let's be real here, everybody uses.

    The reason deceptive evasion is so used its because it is the only reliable way of producing clones. When illusionary reversion was good no one cared about deceptive evasion, if self deception and deception skills were good no one would care about deceptive evasion.

    Just revert the phantasms to the old shatterable ones (won't happen but w/e).

    Why are you talking about illusionary reversion for chrono ? I am purely talking about mirage trade off here.

    Getting to the point why deceptive evasion is mandatory.
    In case of mirage because self deception and deception skills are garbage.

    Yes, I would agree with that too. Deception skills could see some buffs.

    Self deception doesnt just give a clone, you must have one alrdy, pure garbage, just like deceptions themselves (except heal)

    Honestly they should move away from the idea of having traits that give more clones in elite specs. When these traits are too strong, it just powercreeps deceptive evasion. When it is too weak, it is just not worth taking and in PvP, players will just play deceptive evasion anyway.

    Ye, lets make dueling DE mandatory in every build, lets have even less variety of traits to chose from ! /s /facepalm

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @Lagosta.9683 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @Lagosta.9683 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @flog.3485 said:
    The point is not to be pigeonholed into deceptive evasion for mirage but rather to have other damage sources for mirage (through trait choices) that are not necessarily bound to clones: talking about riddle of sand and mirrored axes here.

    Your "brilliant" suggestions do the opposite, I honestly dont feel like I can argue with people that have no clue what they are talking about... :(

    Oh I have a clue of what I am talking about. I am talking about the over reliance to do damages and gain sustain through clones (especially for staff chaos playstyle),which in turn makes it unfun to play against mirage due to general visual clutter.

    Thats what you think. Why I have to explain why stupid idea is stupid ... :(
    Making no clones = less/no shatters which interferes with "Anet" grand vision that mesmers must use shatters and have active playstyle.
    To not rely on clones they could buff personal ambush and make clone ambush condis lasts 0.0001s and its done, identify real mesmer, dodge his ambush.

    Personally I can not understand how you can come to the conclusion that the old staff phantasm was better than what we have now.

    Old phantasm if hit did tons of damage (casually throwing 8k crits on power), make projectile actually track your target and it would be strong as hell but its pointless to discuss as they will never revert

    Maybe but with IP we still can use shatters without having no clones. We still can summon clones without relying on the ability to get clones out off phantasm : we have got utility skills that summon clones, we have got sword ambushes and sword 3, we still have staff 2 as well the deceptive evasion trait in dueling that, let's be real here, everybody uses.

    The reason deceptive evasion is so used its because it is the only reliable way of producing clones. When illusionary reversion was good no one cared about deceptive evasion, if self deception and deception skills were good no one would care about deceptive evasion.

    Just revert the phantasms to the old shatterable ones (won't happen but w/e).

    Why are you talking about illusionary reversion for chrono ? I am purely talking about mirage trade off here.

    Getting to the point why deceptive evasion is mandatory.
    In case of mirage because self deception and deception skills are garbage.

    Yes, I would agree with that too. Deception skills could see some buffs.

    Self deception doesnt just give a clone, you must have one alrdy, pure garbage, just like deceptions themselves (except heal)

    Honestly they should move away from the idea of having traits that give more clones in elite specs. When these traits are too strong, it just powercreeps deceptive evasion. When it is too weak, it is just not worth taking and in PvP, players will just play deceptive evasion anyway.

    Ye, lets make dueling DE mandatory in every build, lets have even less variety of traits to chose from ! /s /facepalm

    Yes exactly, you know why? Because dueling evasion is not the only ability that makes you summon clones. And maybe in the future, it might be a bit more interesting to not make every mesmer build only about summoning enough clones just to shatter them without interruption. But guess what ? The devs are already doing that with the concept of ambushes and you certainly do not need to summon that large amount of clones to gain the effect of your shatters thanks to IP.

    It is also not because the devs offer different way of gaining clones outside of dueling evasion that players will suddenly stop running DE. It happened in HoT times when they nerfed illusionary reversion because players were just combining both effects and it didn't happen in PoF times because they purposefully made self deception very weak imo.

    Other than that, may I just point out that the devs can make the effect of shatters not require the illusion to actually reach the target. That is something they did for chrono this year with flow of time and seize the moment. So maybe they could also do that mirage.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 11, 2019

    @flog.3485 said:

    I refuse to read your nonsense, sry. One paragraph was enough

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭

    Fix clones as a resource first... or prepare the way by moving condition damage, boons, and status effects applied by clones to instead be scaling on the Mesmer/Mirage skills based on number of active clones. Winds of Chaos, for example, would apply an increasing number of stacks of conditions based on the number of clones active. This would apply to Ambushes as well, and increase the number of, or duration of, effects applied by Ambushes (daze, conditions, boons).

    With the reliance on clones for effects compressed into the Mesmer/Mirage attacks, the defense against that becomes positioning (not being LoS of the Mesmer for the attack), active skill usage, or dodging/reliance on passive defenses.

    Now then, for actual tradeoffs... Mirage is about Ambushes, Deception, and "sustained" fighting, it follows that their strengths should be rooted in that. This means that these should be stronger, and the trade off is that other things that the profession has should be weaker. Reduce damage and durations of effects from Shatters for Mirage and empower the Ambushes and Deception utility skills significantly. Mirage should not be Core++, which is pretty much how it feels overall. The trade off should be in play style, where Mirage wants to keep clones alive and get bonuses from having them up, and using deception to keep them alive (alter Self Deception to instead apply distortion to existing clones and self when using a Deception utility skill). This effectively makes sustained fighting more possible with additional ways to protect clones, but ultimately wouldn't even be necessary if they were not able to be destroyed in the first place.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Mirage doesn't need a tradeoff. Ambushes don't come for free. And the improvement to the dodge is counteracted by its deficits.

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Mirage doesn't need a tradeoff. Ambushes don't come for free. And the improvement to the dodge is counteracted by its deficits.

    The real question is... is there anything Core is strictly better at doing than Mirage? If not, then yeah, they need to refine the two so they are differentiated from each other.

    Overall though, I agree that Mirage Cloak and Ambushes are fairly balanced as they stand, but the play style and build simply are not different enough from Core at all in actual play to me.

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 12, 2019

    The big thing with mesmer compared to other classes was how elite specs fixed the underperormance of the base class.

    Compared to the likes of Thief, Warrior, Ranger, Guard, etc. Classes with no substantial trade offs and only got improvments with their elite specs; I don't see why such a thing should be imposed on mesmer alone, when frankly the core specs and the over all lackluster design of the class is enough of a "trade off".

  • Virtuality.8351Virtuality.8351 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 13, 2019

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @Virtuality.8351 said:
    I heard there must be 15 characters to be regarded as a legitimate post.

    Jokes aside, I am pretty worried about this one particularly after the latest nerf hammer hit on Chronomancer. Maybe it'd be better if we discuss this and maybe get the attention of the balance team than just sit and wait for the hammer to drop again.

    Sorry man, we already tried to make suggestions and not only were they largely ignored, but that OP was troll baited and banned for his trouble. Not falling for this trap again.

    Well, I still have my perhaps naive faith in community feedback having the capability of affecting design decisions. I still remember back in 2014 that some rather specific recommendation by some of us on the forum on Mantra skills of Mesmer was implemented and successfully addressed the relative issues and created new possibilities. It has been a long time since then, though. Also, they brought back Quickness Hammer for Scrapper in PvE.

    Still reading through the rest of the comments. As I just started playing, and thus still not very familiar with Mirage, I don't have any meaningful feedback at the moment though.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Virtuality.8351 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @Virtuality.8351 said:
    I heard there must be 15 characters to be regarded as a legitimate post.

    Jokes aside, I am pretty worried about this one particularly after the latest nerf hammer hit on Chronomancer. Maybe it'd be better if we discuss this and maybe get the attention of the balance team than just sit and wait for the hammer to drop again.

    Sorry man, we already tried to make suggestions and not only were they largely ignored, but that OP was troll baited and banned for his trouble. Not falling for this trap again.

    Well, I still have my perhaps naive faith in community feedback having the capability of affecting design decisions. I still remember back in 2014 that some rather specific recommendation by some of us on the forum on Mantra skills of Mesmer was implemented and successfully addressed the relative issues and created new possibilities. It has been a long time since then, though. Also, they brought back Quickness Hammer for Scrapper in PvE.

    Still reading through the rest of the comments. As I just started playing, and thus still not very familiar with Mirage, I don't have any meaningful feedback at the moment though.

    ANerf still takes suggestions. The problem is that they take one buff suggestion and a myriad of nerf suggestions.
    Suggesting nerfs is a sure way to get changes on game that's why we shouldn't give them ideas.
    Chrono trade-off was suggested here as an F4 removal they got that on game and removed additionally IP.

    The degenerate

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